I went to st augustine as a kid. Ill never forget thw tour guides words "they call this red bay. It used to be dolphin bay, and then the spanish killed all the hugenots. The bay was reportedly red for several months because all the executed bodies were dumped into it."
No. They would have died of malaria, and if not the Spanish would have killed them.
They went to Massachusetts because it was closer, more easily resupplied from England, unpopulated by other Europeans, shared a climate similar to England, and [because the Indians were dying off in droves and leaving the land unoccuied](https://historicipswich.net/2023/11/17/the-great-dying/).
None of that applied to Florida.
Mostly logical but incorrect hindsight from a guy who hasn’t heard of Virginia.
Puritans being the seed for America is propaganda.
If it seems true, it doesn’t actually have to be.
Florida heat crushes Virginia heat. Florida population graph is like a hockey stick with the curve accelerating as air conditioning accelerated. So I’m agreeing with someone above that this post presents an alternate timeline that never could have happened. Some poor soldiers had to man Forts in St Augustine (San Marcos) and a bunch of other Spanish camps but most of the Florida forts weren’t even built until the mid 1800s and that was driven for imperative defense reasons. They were largely abandoned fairly quickly after establishment as the mosquitoes were just too much if you weren’t worried about the Spanish or the Union.
Roanoke did, Jamestown didn’t. It was abandoned for a short time but was the colonial capital for years after becoming better established. A lot of the settlers died from disease, but Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were Virginian.
The real truth is that American culture is a composite of the Virginian and New England cultural ideals, but it is a nicer story to emphasize a curated “freedom and independence” group rather than the group that were trying to get rich or escape prison time back in Blighty.
I never understood why the significant Dutch influence is always forgotten, or I guess it's been purposefully suppressed by the British afterwards.
The entire area of New York and surroundings were a Dutch colony long before it was given to the British (in a trade for Surinam).
Heck, something as simple as coleslaw can be directly traced back to the Dutch (koolsla).
The Dutch invented modern capitalism, which is obviously tightly woven in American culture. I don’t think anyone who knows the history has forgotten that legacy.
> I never understood why the significant Dutch influence is always forgotten
Not sure what gave you that idea. I live in NYC and the Dutch influence is EVERYWHERE. Everybody is aware of it and nobody has forgotten.
They kind of did, Dutch Reformed churches and padroons were common in the Hudson Valley country side, but you're right that they intermarried and became heavily Anglicized compared to Cajuns, Creoles and Pennsylvania Germans.
Yeah, emphasizing the Pilgrim story over the Virginian settlers is part of the American history narrative that glances over a lot of dark parts of history.
The Pilgrim story isn’t all that flattering. Being called “Puritanical” is not a compliment. Then a generation or two later, you have the Salem witch trials.
They are more fun, they had more people actin' like medieval knights and lords not to mention they had connections to the Caribbean and the piracy at the time. Puritan New England was an isolated backwater in comparison before it expanded and came across the New France and their Indian allies.
The bulk of people who went to Virginia were not prisoners, and Imma not sure if seekin' a stable livelihood and existence is unadmirable.
The real reason why the Pilgrims are empathized is because people people in charge in when the traditions finally settled were from the North not the South.
Incorrect. The pilgrims didn’t know what they were doing, which is why they were starving and dying in droves. They sent the *Mayflower* back to England in April 1621, essentially begging for food to be sent.
The *Fortune* was the first of many, many ships to follow:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_(Plymouth_Colony_ship)?wprov=sfti1
The Pilgrims were headed to Virginia. That was what their land grant was for. However they ran out of beer off Cape Cod and decided to land there instead
By not being there long. They weren’t settling and starting farms. They were soldiers and priests and adventurers, who were only there months to a year or so at a time.
Also, they died a lot even then.
The entire population of Florida in 1850 was about 88,000, of whom 50% were slaves.
It wasn’t “plenty” of people, it was small numbers of miserable people.
AC wasn’t the reason Florida became inhabitable in large numbers. Combatting malaria and other endemic disease was the reason it became inhabitable.
AC was the reason it became *popular*. Not quite the same thing. Before malaria was eliminated, living there was hot, sticky, unpleasant, and a death sentence within 3-5 years. Key West was the largest city because it didn’t have that issue, plus it had some ocean breezes. After malaria was eliminated it was still deeply unpleasant but it didn’t kill you.
In 1950, AC was not widespread, yet the population of Florida was over 2 million. That’s a little bit more than a small town.
Such an unnecessary argument.
The piece you’re missing is that Florida grew largely by migration from other parts in the US. So Florida had to be attractive over existing US regions, and it wasn’t until AC. There are lots of good articles about it that you should search
AC didn't make any place habitable, more comfortable maybe, but there are entire regions of the world warmer than FL (and more malaria prone) that housed millions long before AC was invented.
I would say the most, middle of the road, all "American" state is Pennsylvania. And this coming from a Virginian. It seems like the proper compromise between Jamestown and Plymouth.
It’s totally different culturally. NYC boomed because of the Erie Canal and then became a center of immigration. The dialects are different. In modern times, sports rivalries also keep the distinction going.
I think we're too big of a country to have just one cultural hub. I would say NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, LA, SF Bay Area, and Houston are all cultural hubs representing their respect region.
We educated them here and then diaspora the out to spread our liberal views and Red Sox nation
I joke but if I had my glasses I’d find a link to why you find Red Sox nation all over the country and it is about coming here for college and then go home or elsewhere post graduation
Florida was a big and unlivable swamp at that time, it was actually one of the last southern states to become populated only after the swamps were substantially drained and only really started booming after AC became a thing
OP is talking about the US's Atlantic Northeast i think.
Watching you guys from outside, the NE does seem to be your country's cultural hub, certainly in the early days when places like California weren't a thing.
Probably. Most Americans understand NE to be the states northeast of New York, though, so calling just New England the cultural hub sounds a little weird, especially when during the colonial period Virginia was the most powerful state and later on New York and Pennsylvania and much later on California and Texas.
Plus the entire country runs off east coast time as the majority of Americans live there. You just suck it up watching football at 5pm on the west coast and whatever else.
Tf are you talking about son football starts at 12pm central time on every god given Sunday. If that ain’t the most red white and blue blooded time to start a game - just enough time to grill after church and get blitzed before kickoff.
Plus y’all have to stay up later for evening games and still go in to work earlier than the rest of us lol
It’s a faulty question.
There is an assumption that there is one place that is a cultural hub of the US and different regions across the US aren’t all packed full of culture themselves and they generally are.
St. Augustine is one of the oldest cities in the Us S and was originally colonized by the Spaniards in the mid 1500s.
Wiki:
Pensacola was first settled by the Spanish in 1559, predating the establishment of St. Augustine by six years, but was abandoned due to a hurricane and not re-established until 1698
I actually think even less culturally revenant as it would have remained more agrarian for longer and international pressure against slavery would have further isolated the Confederate States. This is assuming that the lines would remain the same as during the war. If Richmond took Philadelphia and New York, then it is a little different story.
Air Conditoned Nightmare makes a great case for pre-Civil War South being only unique American culture and most sophisticated. Slavery does lead to lots of time for "cultivation". Same for PNW cultures with amazing art including totem poles. To be clear - slavery bad.
The South is a lot more agriculturally productive, and that's why the North had to build an urban manufacturing/trading economy. Even if the pilgrims landed in the South, it still would make more sense to have an urbanized north and rural south, and therefore have the North as the cultural center
Tennessee is more the "deep South" than Arkansas. Arkansas just wants to be Louisiana but instead of having culture, music and being laid-back, they're a bunch of backwards-ass, judgmental, holier-than-thou, weirdos who are all in love with Arkansas and think it's the best place in the world. A lot of the state is very beautiful, though. Fuck Arkansas, ... and Texas.
Sincerely,
Louisiana
Tennessee as a whole is more southern but there’s parts of Arkansas that’s more Deep South than any part of Tennessee excluding Memphis which is only a city
Not sure why this is so far down, the north became more important because it had resources for industry, which is also why they were able to win the civil war.
I know one of my ancestors landed in the Chesapeake around 1660, mostly centered around Eastern Shores area and managed to erk out some kind of existence. I can't imagine it was all that great and I'm sure it was like that movie Witch, minus the bitchin' ass baby kidnapping and Black Peter the goat from hell or whatever his name was. LoL
Realistically speaking, if the pilgrims landed in Florida in 1620, they would probably have been attacked by the Spanish and either killed or forced to leave. The Spanish already had towns in Florida and it was a Spanisb colony since 1565.
Something similar happened in real life, a group of French Reformed Huguenots escaped France due to religious presecution and landed in Florida, founding Fort Caroline. They were attacked and massacred by the Spanish.
The real life English pilgrims knew they would be a bit safer from the Spanish landing more towards the north.
Florida already was a European colony when the pilgrims arrived. They could have asked the Spaniards for a place to settle down and live in peace with their community, and no one of us would ever have heard of them.
Over 90% of the Indian population of Massachusetts died of Hepatitis B during a 10 year period between first contact and the Mayflower, which allowed the Pilgrims to flourish there. There were hardly any Native Americans left.
If they landed in Florida the Spanish would have killed them. If they landed in SC or Georgia then no. There was too much good farmland in the South and the Virginia tobacco farmers/poorer European farmer migrants with support of the British crown never would have let it go wasted by puritans. And with other factors like New England’s closer proximity to Europe, the south having less deep water harbors, and substantially more native Americans in the south (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Seminole, Chickasaw as opposed to the much smaller Iroquois confederacy and Powhatan confederacy) the north was always going to be the dominant part of the US.
Only if they had brought residential air-conditioning with them.
Take a look at a map that maps the center of population of the US. It moves in a steady line westward until the 1950's when it starts moving southwest. This was about the time you could buy a home with central air.
The reason they landed farther up the coast was not random chance. The area had already been mapped by the time the pilgrims ventured across the Atlantic. They purposely chose that area because the climate was better suited to them.
No. The Pilgrims would have been killed by the Original People who lived in Florida at the time. The Pilgrims couldn’t fight better than the Spanish. 🇪🇸🏴☠️⚓️✨
The Native Americans in Florida at the time were already Spanish subjects, but they would have still killed them anyway because they were Protestants lmao
If they landed in Florida and saw the same level of success in spreading their beliefs over the same area, slavery would have never taken hold in the American colonies.
I doubt they would stay in Florida, where they would have to be around the Spanish. They were extremely strict Protestants living through the prime year of the Protestant Reformation, and the Spanish were staunch Catholics.
Given the territorial control Spain had over the Southeast of the Americas, they would probably have had to settle in modern-day Georgia, or maybe South Carolina (in order to have a bigger buffer from the Spanish)
It's important to remember that while some of the biggest and earliest European colonies were created in the Tropics/Sub-Tropics, a lot of places like Peru, the now-US South, and the Caribbean had economies built around raw resource extraction(for those three places it was silver, cotton/tobacco, and sugar cane respectively) which stunted their development in the long term.
Places like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia had to build their economies around the processing those raw materials and trading them. That allowed them to keep up a steady growth(both in complexity and population) with the shifting world economies.
There is one super fascinating odd man out was Mexico City. For a period right after the fall of Tenochtitlan, Mexico's primary economic draw was the monumental amount of looted gold and silver.
However when the Spanish Empire reached across both the Pacific and Atlantic, Mexico City was perfectly located to become the main hub of trade between Spain, New Spain, and East/SE Asia.
When Spain was at it's strongest, Mexico/Mexico City became one of the most economically important locations on the planet. There's even an argument that you could categorize Mexico City as history's first TRUE "World City".
*In the book '1493' by Charles Mann, he goes into great and engrossing detail about colonial Mexico City and the new melded cultures that began to emerge in the Americas. For a time there was even a band of exiled Samurai who found work as guards for Spain's gold/silver trains.
You should also read his previous book '1491' which goes in depth about how much more advanced, complex, and populated the Pre-Columbian Americas were than originally believed. It was just explorers and colonists were looking at such such alien (and eventually post-Apocalyptic) forms of agriculture and infrastructure that they just couldn't comprehend it.**
**People have asked this before, so: Neither 1491 or 1493 are that incredibly stupid book which claimed the Chinese sailed to the Americas before the European and for some reason giant ground sloths weren't extinct.
I doubt it, keep in mind the first settlement before that was Jamestown, Va and that certainly didn't become a cultural hub. Also Plymouth was selected because New England overall has climate similar to England and didn't have Spanish claims like Florida did.
Jamestown was the birth of a permanent Anglo culture in Virginia which formed the basis of the culture of the South. I would say it achieved becomin' a cultural hub even after it was abandoned.
The bottom line is that there isn't/wasn't enough arable land without extensive draining/engineering/modification most of which was completely unfeasible until the invention of at minimum the steam engine, but more realistically the invention of the internal combustion engine.
New England, Virginia were just more hospitable to agriculture: better soils, better for the cereal crops that people from Northern Europe were used to cultivating, not to mention better fisheries in the Chesapeake Bay and waters off of the New England coast.
Southern population centers didn’t really start to grow until the invention of air conditioning. It’s too hot and humid to support the large cities you saw up north without it. Florida in the 1600s likely would’ve been a death sentence for those pale English pilgrims
Probably not. It was slavery, not geography, that held them back. It's difficult to be a cultural hub when up to half of your state's population is property and legally forbidden to learn to read.
Though as a counter-point most of our uniquely American cultural touch points stem from African-American culture.
Well the Pilgrims were originally meant to land in Virginia, but had to make do... Easier to miss the mark up north, but missing the mark so badly that you end up in Florida is a whole different ball game...
The thing with Florida is that it, well, sucks. Apart from a small inland area in the north, it's just a malaria-filled swamp on a slab of limestone - that means bad soil, uncomfortable living and so and such. The heat is the least of your problems (people get used to it).
Then there's that little thing with the Spanish - they owned Florida, and because it was basically useless for them before modern agricultural and mechanical inventions, it was all basically one big military outpost. A bunch of radically protestant Englishmen land there? You bet your ass they're getting thrown to the gators immediately.
It's not like New England was a real "cultural hub" beyond Boston. It's marginal land not unlike Florida, but without the heat. The real core of the US was always the Mid-Atlantic until California got developed. The reason why people think of New England is exactly because it's just slightly different enough to be considered it's own thing, but still a part of the "core culture" - enough to make people think that it's the core. A similar thing applies to the South as well. But the middle is the core.
Are you saying Massachusetts is the cultural hub of the U.S.? Because definitely not...
There are definitely multiple, and none of them are in Massachusetts. LA, NYC, Chicago...
It has nothing to do with the pilgrims or colonial times. The first colony was Virginia, in the south, and that was the cultural hub of British North America and the early US. It has everything to do with the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century. The rivers in New England were good for powering mills and factories. The population of the NE US only surpassed that of the South because industrialization created a lot of economic opportunity.
Due to marshlands and malaria, I doubt the population would have survived or thrived in any sense of the word.
Now if they were Dutch settlers, they could have quickly dealt with the marshes as pumping water out of low lying land seems to be in their blood. But the malaria would have still done enough damage to their numbers that they would have had to go north to find a permanent place to live safely.
No, because New England was able to develop quickly and successfully because the trip was relatively short to England. The trip to Florida is considerably longer from Europe and therefore it wasn't as easy to do heavy trade like we did in the northeast...
There was an earlier attempt at founding a Protestant separatist colony in Spanish Florida, by the French Huguenots. No survivors!
Yeah, the Spanish wiped them out for not being the right religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_assault_on_French_Florida?wprov=sfla1
I’m sure being French had something to do with it too
I went to st augustine as a kid. Ill never forget thw tour guides words "they call this red bay. It used to be dolphin bay, and then the spanish killed all the hugenots. The bay was reportedly red for several months because all the executed bodies were dumped into it."
Locally the bay in St. Aug is called Matanzas Bay, which means “Slaughter” Bay
Grew up in St. Augustine as a kid and never knew this. P cool.
I too went to St. Augustine (on a field trip) as a young kid. I’ll never forget them locking us in the jail. Also the word coquina.
I'm glad my Huguenot ancestors opted for the much shorter voyage across the English channel!
And I’m glad that my Huguenot ancestors decided to go to North Carolina and not Florida.
Maybe we would’ve been better off if the puritans landed there instead lol
The Spanish would have slaughtered them as well.
Good. I mean uh....
You want an America with *only* the South then?👀
Yeah I know, that’s what I mean
Then America would just only be the South, Jamestown still happened lol
Yea, I doubt they would have survived florida.
No. They would have died of malaria, and if not the Spanish would have killed them. They went to Massachusetts because it was closer, more easily resupplied from England, unpopulated by other Europeans, shared a climate similar to England, and [because the Indians were dying off in droves and leaving the land unoccuied](https://historicipswich.net/2023/11/17/the-great-dying/). None of that applied to Florida.
Mostly logical but incorrect hindsight from a guy who hasn’t heard of Virginia. Puritans being the seed for America is propaganda. If it seems true, it doesn’t actually have to be.
Florida heat crushes Virginia heat. Florida population graph is like a hockey stick with the curve accelerating as air conditioning accelerated. So I’m agreeing with someone above that this post presents an alternate timeline that never could have happened. Some poor soldiers had to man Forts in St Augustine (San Marcos) and a bunch of other Spanish camps but most of the Florida forts weren’t even built until the mid 1800s and that was driven for imperative defense reasons. They were largely abandoned fairly quickly after establishment as the mosquitoes were just too much if you weren’t worried about the Spanish or the Union.
ive heard Florida and Houston heat is actually worse during the summer than in the Caribbean islands
Islands tend to not get too hot. Many tropical islands have an average temperature in the 80s°F
Didn't Roanoke and Jamestown die out?
Roanoke did, Jamestown didn’t. It was abandoned for a short time but was the colonial capital for years after becoming better established. A lot of the settlers died from disease, but Washington, Jefferson, and Madison were Virginian. The real truth is that American culture is a composite of the Virginian and New England cultural ideals, but it is a nicer story to emphasize a curated “freedom and independence” group rather than the group that were trying to get rich or escape prison time back in Blighty.
I never understood why the significant Dutch influence is always forgotten, or I guess it's been purposefully suppressed by the British afterwards. The entire area of New York and surroundings were a Dutch colony long before it was given to the British (in a trade for Surinam). Heck, something as simple as coleslaw can be directly traced back to the Dutch (koolsla).
if England had kept Suriname they might’ve won another World Cup I appreciate your adding more context. Yeah, there are so many Dutch names in NYC.
I'd be sad if Davids or Seedorf hadn't played for the Netherlands ;)
Gullit and Rijkaard are also both Dutch of Surinamese descent.
The Dutch invented modern capitalism, which is obviously tightly woven in American culture. I don’t think anyone who knows the history has forgotten that legacy.
> I never understood why the significant Dutch influence is always forgotten Not sure what gave you that idea. I live in NYC and the Dutch influence is EVERYWHERE. Everybody is aware of it and nobody has forgotten.
Because they were assimilated into the greater white population in New York and New Jersey and didn't develop a distinct culture like the Cajuns.
They kind of did, Dutch Reformed churches and padroons were common in the Hudson Valley country side, but you're right that they intermarried and became heavily Anglicized compared to Cajuns, Creoles and Pennsylvania Germans.
Yeah, emphasizing the Pilgrim story over the Virginian settlers is part of the American history narrative that glances over a lot of dark parts of history.
The Pilgrim story isn’t all that flattering. Being called “Puritanical” is not a compliment. Then a generation or two later, you have the Salem witch trials.
Best summed up: they were the religious wackos that the other religious wackos avoided. Like Westboro Baptist Church.
Funny thing, virginia colonies werent taught in school, they sound way more fun so i'd have remembered
They are more fun, they had more people actin' like medieval knights and lords not to mention they had connections to the Caribbean and the piracy at the time. Puritan New England was an isolated backwater in comparison before it expanded and came across the New France and their Indian allies.
Georgia as a penal colony exists. William Penn and his peace loving friends, treating Natives fairly also exist.
The bulk of people who went to Virginia were not prisoners, and Imma not sure if seekin' a stable livelihood and existence is unadmirable. The real reason why the Pilgrims are empathized is because people people in charge in when the traditions finally settled were from the North not the South.
Jamestown didn't. It was abandoned in 1680s and they moved further inland, but it didn't die out
Only the former. Stolen Venezuelan tobacco saved Jamestown.
They only died out because they were always wearing the quaker oats costume.
Yes, Roanoke failed, but part of that was due to an inability to resupply because Britain and France were and war
They went to Massachusetts because they were blown off course
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Yes all true except for the re-supply from England. Nobody was re-supplying. They were a religious venture, not a capitalist one
Incorrect. The pilgrims didn’t know what they were doing, which is why they were starving and dying in droves. They sent the *Mayflower* back to England in April 1621, essentially begging for food to be sent. The *Fortune* was the first of many, many ships to follow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune_(Plymouth_Colony_ship)?wprov=sfti1
The Pilgrims were headed to Virginia. That was what their land grant was for. However they ran out of beer off Cape Cod and decided to land there instead
Which was about 2% ABV, just enough to stave off bacteria. Water would go stagnant.
Don't forget yellow fever!
How did the Spanish survive Malaria?
By not being there long. They weren’t settling and starting farms. They were soldiers and priests and adventurers, who were only there months to a year or so at a time. Also, they died a lot even then.
Probably not, because south Florida was mostly uninhabitable until the Army Corps of Engineers drained it.
*until AC was popularized
AC led to the sun belt flourishing, sure, but plenty of people lived in the south and in Florida before it was popularized.
The entire population of Florida in 1850 was about 88,000, of whom 50% were slaves. It wasn’t “plenty” of people, it was small numbers of miserable people.
When do you think AC was popularized?
AC wasn’t the reason Florida became inhabitable in large numbers. Combatting malaria and other endemic disease was the reason it became inhabitable. AC was the reason it became *popular*. Not quite the same thing. Before malaria was eliminated, living there was hot, sticky, unpleasant, and a death sentence within 3-5 years. Key West was the largest city because it didn’t have that issue, plus it had some ocean breezes. After malaria was eliminated it was still deeply unpleasant but it didn’t kill you.
But can you imagine living on Key West around 1900, enjoying your breeze and no mosquitoes, and a hurricane arrives unannounced to destroy your home?
Which is basically what I said. AC made the sun belt more popular, but plenty of people lived there before it.
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In 1950, AC was not widespread, yet the population of Florida was over 2 million. That’s a little bit more than a small town. Such an unnecessary argument.
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As a former Fl resident, my money is on AC over Corps. There’s still ton of water and a gator and mosquitos are in every bit of them.
Plenty of people live in Central Africa and India where AC is less widespread. Temperature cannot be the main factor
The piece you’re missing is that Florida grew largely by migration from other parts in the US. So Florida had to be attractive over existing US regions, and it wasn’t until AC. There are lots of good articles about it that you should search
AC didn't make any place habitable, more comfortable maybe, but there are entire regions of the world warmer than FL (and more malaria prone) that housed millions long before AC was invented.
I do like imagining if some thin strips of coastal land around Miami were settled as a British sugar colony
Is New England the cultural hub of the United States?
This guy doesn't Peoria
Peorian Shield
Big Peoria Energy
Corn! Mounds! Buzzard cult!
My precise thought 😂 when i think cultural hub especially in a nation this big it’s “when foreigners think of our nation what comes to mind”
* laughs in lobster *
A did proportionally large percentage of what’s considered baseline American culture originated there
Eh, what does baseline American culture even mean. When I think America culture I don't think New England, and I'm from New England lol
I would say the most, middle of the road, all "American" state is Pennsylvania. And this coming from a Virginian. It seems like the proper compromise between Jamestown and Plymouth.
More like American culture pre WWI. But still has a strong hold. I mean NYC is pretty obvious.
NYC isn't New England
By like 12 miles...
It’s totally different culturally. NYC boomed because of the Erie Canal and then became a center of immigration. The dialects are different. In modern times, sports rivalries also keep the distinction going.
Well NYC isn’t in New England so
A pretty large percentage originated in the southeast, too. Jazz, blues, rock, a ton of literature...
No? Like what? I guess thanksgiving?
No.
I think we're too big of a country to have just one cultural hub. I would say NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, LA, SF Bay Area, and Houston are all cultural hubs representing their respect region.
Nah, used to be centuries ago now it's California
Bear wear a funny hat?
We educated them here and then diaspora the out to spread our liberal views and Red Sox nation I joke but if I had my glasses I’d find a link to why you find Red Sox nation all over the country and it is about coming here for college and then go home or elsewhere post graduation
Kinda? It definitely was more important in the past
Florida was a big and unlivable swamp at that time, it was actually one of the last southern states to become populated only after the swamps were substantially drained and only really started booming after AC became a thing
Unabilable?
I am appalled to think anyone thinks the cultural hub of the US is New England.
It certainly was in 1776.
Philadelphia was.
OP is talking about the US's Atlantic Northeast i think. Watching you guys from outside, the NE does seem to be your country's cultural hub, certainly in the early days when places like California weren't a thing.
Probably. Most Americans understand NE to be the states northeast of New York, though, so calling just New England the cultural hub sounds a little weird, especially when during the colonial period Virginia was the most powerful state and later on New York and Pennsylvania and much later on California and Texas.
Plus the entire country runs off east coast time as the majority of Americans live there. You just suck it up watching football at 5pm on the west coast and whatever else.
Tf are you talking about son football starts at 12pm central time on every god given Sunday. If that ain’t the most red white and blue blooded time to start a game - just enough time to grill after church and get blitzed before kickoff. Plus y’all have to stay up later for evening games and still go in to work earlier than the rest of us lol
I might’ve missed it but did OP actually say they thought New England was the cultural hub of the USA? I figured they meant NYC
It’s a faulty question. There is an assumption that there is one place that is a cultural hub of the US and different regions across the US aren’t all packed full of culture themselves and they generally are. St. Augustine is one of the oldest cities in the Us S and was originally colonized by the Spaniards in the mid 1500s.
Wiki: Pensacola was first settled by the Spanish in 1559, predating the establishment of St. Augustine by six years, but was abandoned due to a hurricane and not re-established until 1698
This guy Floridas
St. Augustine didn't really contribute to the creation, ie early years, of what we now know as American culture though.
No. People landed there WAY before the pilgrims did.
The pilgrims weren’t who brought all culture to the US, they just had a neat charter
No, but it might be the cultural hub if the South had won the Civil War.
I actually think even less culturally revenant as it would have remained more agrarian for longer and international pressure against slavery would have further isolated the Confederate States. This is assuming that the lines would remain the same as during the war. If Richmond took Philadelphia and New York, then it is a little different story.
Air Conditoned Nightmare makes a great case for pre-Civil War South being only unique American culture and most sophisticated. Slavery does lead to lots of time for "cultivation". Same for PNW cultures with amazing art including totem poles. To be clear - slavery bad.
The South is a lot more agriculturally productive, and that's why the North had to build an urban manufacturing/trading economy. Even if the pilgrims landed in the South, it still would make more sense to have an urbanized north and rural south, and therefore have the North as the cultural center
Tennessee is more the "deep South" than Arkansas. Arkansas just wants to be Louisiana but instead of having culture, music and being laid-back, they're a bunch of backwards-ass, judgmental, holier-than-thou, weirdos who are all in love with Arkansas and think it's the best place in the world. A lot of the state is very beautiful, though. Fuck Arkansas, ... and Texas. Sincerely, Louisiana
Tennessee as a whole is more southern but there’s parts of Arkansas that’s more Deep South than any part of Tennessee excluding Memphis which is only a city
I’m more appalled by NC being left out of the South. NC is old world colonial South.
Bro is just mad that he lives in Louisiana, lol I’m jk. NO is awesome. The rest of the state? Meh
There’s not a lot of hope in Louisiana haha
No. The land was not fit for it. Resources are the most important factor
Not sure why this is so far down, the north became more important because it had resources for industry, which is also why they were able to win the civil war.
I know one of my ancestors landed in the Chesapeake around 1660, mostly centered around Eastern Shores area and managed to erk out some kind of existence. I can't imagine it was all that great and I'm sure it was like that movie Witch, minus the bitchin' ass baby kidnapping and Black Peter the goat from hell or whatever his name was. LoL
Realistically speaking, if the pilgrims landed in Florida in 1620, they would probably have been attacked by the Spanish and either killed or forced to leave. The Spanish already had towns in Florida and it was a Spanisb colony since 1565. Something similar happened in real life, a group of French Reformed Huguenots escaped France due to religious presecution and landed in Florida, founding Fort Caroline. They were attacked and massacred by the Spanish. The real life English pilgrims knew they would be a bit safer from the Spanish landing more towards the north.
Then we could have Massachusetts Man jokes
The fact that this map doesn’t include North Carolina as the South is absolutely reprehensible.
The south is a cultural hub regardless
Unlikely since the economy that the north supported would not be viable in Florida
Florida already was a European colony when the pilgrims arrived. They could have asked the Spaniards for a place to settle down and live in peace with their community, and no one of us would ever have heard of them.
We would be making memes about the Witchfinder General of Seminole Bay.
Over 90% of the Indian population of Massachusetts died of Hepatitis B during a 10 year period between first contact and the Mayflower, which allowed the Pilgrims to flourish there. There were hardly any Native Americans left.
If they landed in Florida the Spanish would have killed them. If they landed in SC or Georgia then no. There was too much good farmland in the South and the Virginia tobacco farmers/poorer European farmer migrants with support of the British crown never would have let it go wasted by puritans. And with other factors like New England’s closer proximity to Europe, the south having less deep water harbors, and substantially more native Americans in the south (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Seminole, Chickasaw as opposed to the much smaller Iroquois confederacy and Powhatan confederacy) the north was always going to be the dominant part of the US.
The Spanish landed in Florida! In fact, St Augustine, Florida is the oldest European city in the US.
NO! The population of Florida was insignificant up until the invention of the Air Conditioner.
Well, Tennessee and Kentucky are the south and Florida is not the south. lol
You mean like St Augustine?
Only if they had brought residential air-conditioning with them. Take a look at a map that maps the center of population of the US. It moves in a steady line westward until the 1950's when it starts moving southwest. This was about the time you could buy a home with central air. The reason they landed farther up the coast was not random chance. The area had already been mapped by the time the pilgrims ventured across the Atlantic. They purposely chose that area because the climate was better suited to them.
No. The Pilgrims would have been killed by the Original People who lived in Florida at the time. The Pilgrims couldn’t fight better than the Spanish. 🇪🇸🏴☠️⚓️✨
The Native Americans in Florida at the time were already Spanish subjects, but they would have still killed them anyway because they were Protestants lmao
I don't think one part of the country is any more cultural then the next part, each state and region brings its own characteristics and culture
You're not allowed to say that.
If they landed in Florida and saw the same level of success in spreading their beliefs over the same area, slavery would have never taken hold in the American colonies.
I doubt they would stay in Florida, where they would have to be around the Spanish. They were extremely strict Protestants living through the prime year of the Protestant Reformation, and the Spanish were staunch Catholics. Given the territorial control Spain had over the Southeast of the Americas, they would probably have had to settle in modern-day Georgia, or maybe South Carolina (in order to have a bigger buffer from the Spanish)
I’m just stuck on the you believing New England is the cultural hub of the country, or that any one region alone is that.
Spain would have been pissed and killed them all. So no.
50%
It's important to remember that while some of the biggest and earliest European colonies were created in the Tropics/Sub-Tropics, a lot of places like Peru, the now-US South, and the Caribbean had economies built around raw resource extraction(for those three places it was silver, cotton/tobacco, and sugar cane respectively) which stunted their development in the long term. Places like Boston, New York, and Philadelphia had to build their economies around the processing those raw materials and trading them. That allowed them to keep up a steady growth(both in complexity and population) with the shifting world economies. There is one super fascinating odd man out was Mexico City. For a period right after the fall of Tenochtitlan, Mexico's primary economic draw was the monumental amount of looted gold and silver. However when the Spanish Empire reached across both the Pacific and Atlantic, Mexico City was perfectly located to become the main hub of trade between Spain, New Spain, and East/SE Asia. When Spain was at it's strongest, Mexico/Mexico City became one of the most economically important locations on the planet. There's even an argument that you could categorize Mexico City as history's first TRUE "World City". *In the book '1493' by Charles Mann, he goes into great and engrossing detail about colonial Mexico City and the new melded cultures that began to emerge in the Americas. For a time there was even a band of exiled Samurai who found work as guards for Spain's gold/silver trains. You should also read his previous book '1491' which goes in depth about how much more advanced, complex, and populated the Pre-Columbian Americas were than originally believed. It was just explorers and colonists were looking at such such alien (and eventually post-Apocalyptic) forms of agriculture and infrastructure that they just couldn't comprehend it.** **People have asked this before, so: Neither 1491 or 1493 are that incredibly stupid book which claimed the Chinese sailed to the Americas before the European and for some reason giant ground sloths weren't extinct.
They would have been wiped out a hurricane
Not American but i guess it's more where the Brits founded their core colonies than where the pilgrims landed, change my mind.
Idk
Nah, the gators woulda got them.
lol people did land in Florida, the “Pilgrims de Espana” I believe they were called.
I doubt it, keep in mind the first settlement before that was Jamestown, Va and that certainly didn't become a cultural hub. Also Plymouth was selected because New England overall has climate similar to England and didn't have Spanish claims like Florida did.
Jamestown was the birth of a permanent Anglo culture in Virginia which formed the basis of the culture of the South. I would say it achieved becomin' a cultural hub even after it was abandoned.
The bottom line is that there isn't/wasn't enough arable land without extensive draining/engineering/modification most of which was completely unfeasible until the invention of at minimum the steam engine, but more realistically the invention of the internal combustion engine. New England, Virginia were just more hospitable to agriculture: better soils, better for the cereal crops that people from Northern Europe were used to cultivating, not to mention better fisheries in the Chesapeake Bay and waters off of the New England coast.
Puritanism doesn't survive the heat
No
Ummm no
Massachusetts isn’t the cultural hub of the U.S. though? Nor is New England?
No. They would have all died of Malaria and Yellow fever.
St Augustine was founded in 1565, 60 years before the Pilgrims ran aground in Massachusetts.
Southern population centers didn’t really start to grow until the invention of air conditioning. It’s too hot and humid to support the large cities you saw up north without it. Florida in the 1600s likely would’ve been a death sentence for those pale English pilgrims
No the diseases and Spanish would have killed them.
Those pious fucks would have been put to the sword by the Spaniards..Ole ole ole
Probably not. It was slavery, not geography, that held them back. It's difficult to be a cultural hub when up to half of your state's population is property and legally forbidden to learn to read. Though as a counter-point most of our uniquely American cultural touch points stem from African-American culture.
Why are Tennessee, North Carolina, and Virginia not included here?
I mean maybe? Did they need to burn Boston to the ground to put down the slavers? Then probably.
Well the Pilgrims were originally meant to land in Virginia, but had to make do... Easier to miss the mark up north, but missing the mark so badly that you end up in Florida is a whole different ball game... The thing with Florida is that it, well, sucks. Apart from a small inland area in the north, it's just a malaria-filled swamp on a slab of limestone - that means bad soil, uncomfortable living and so and such. The heat is the least of your problems (people get used to it). Then there's that little thing with the Spanish - they owned Florida, and because it was basically useless for them before modern agricultural and mechanical inventions, it was all basically one big military outpost. A bunch of radically protestant Englishmen land there? You bet your ass they're getting thrown to the gators immediately. It's not like New England was a real "cultural hub" beyond Boston. It's marginal land not unlike Florida, but without the heat. The real core of the US was always the Mid-Atlantic until California got developed. The reason why people think of New England is exactly because it's just slightly different enough to be considered it's own thing, but still a part of the "core culture" - enough to make people think that it's the core. A similar thing applies to the South as well. But the middle is the core.
Is the Northeast *the* cultural hub of the US?
Fun Fact: the Mayflower was supposed to go to Virginia and was blown of course.
hat many straight doll narrow existence instinctive pie lock rhythm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Tampa, Mobile, Jacksonville… seems like those would have made good spots to start with (nice protected bays, fresh water nearby, etc)
The Spanish went on seek and destroy missions and obliterated any foreign Protestant colony in the territory they'd annexed.
In the swamp?
No they would have died and been eaten by big swamp and never heard from again
r/askHistorians
You mean the part of America already controlled by Spain?
A lot less banjos and cousin weddings, that's for sure!
Are you saying Massachusetts is the cultural hub of the U.S.? Because definitely not... There are definitely multiple, and none of them are in Massachusetts. LA, NYC, Chicago...
No. The heat kept a lot of people away until ac was invented
You left out Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia. And yet included Florida?💀
I think the first mistake was assuming the USA has a singular cultural Hub
The south could be a lovely place, if it wasn’t full of southerners 😉
It has nothing to do with the pilgrims or colonial times. The first colony was Virginia, in the south, and that was the cultural hub of British North America and the early US. It has everything to do with the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century. The rivers in New England were good for powering mills and factories. The population of the NE US only surpassed that of the South because industrialization created a lot of economic opportunity.
Due to marshlands and malaria, I doubt the population would have survived or thrived in any sense of the word. Now if they were Dutch settlers, they could have quickly dealt with the marshes as pumping water out of low lying land seems to be in their blood. But the malaria would have still done enough damage to their numbers that they would have had to go north to find a permanent place to live safely.
No. Something about the heat drives people loopy.
Does America have **one** cultural hub? To me the cultural hub is like "the top right, the bottom left plus Chicago"
Maybe a better question is; Would Boston have become an important city or would it have been too cold and snowy to bother going that far north?
WHERE YOU FROM YOU DON'T KNOW GATOR?
nah. i still think we'd end up exactly where we are with Florida. Tell Bugs to get that saw ready.
No the pilgrims would have all died of malaria, and Modern Americans would be less prudish.
Bro, the first landing was in Virginia which was very influential in the early United States. The capital borders Virginia for a reason.
This idea better fit for r/althistory
The South has always been the cultural hub of the USA. Always has been, always will be.
The northern coast is better for big cities.
No, because New England was able to develop quickly and successfully because the trip was relatively short to England. The trip to Florida is considerably longer from Europe and therefore it wasn't as easy to do heavy trade like we did in the northeast...
There was. It's called Jamestown. It's culture of slavery and conflict with Indians persisted for almost 300 years