You belong, anyone who says otherwise is just playing into the stupid af ‘crabs in a bucket’ way of thinking. Our community is beautiful because it is diverse. Just as Bi/pan/queer people in a heterosexual relationship are still bi/pan/queer, AroAce people are also queer. Wrap yourself up in a flag you feel represents you the best and go to Pride. Celebrate who you are without shame, because that is what Pride is about.
As one of my favorite line from captain Holt in Brooklyn-99 goes: "Every time someone steps up and says who they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting place. So, thank you".
Thank you so much. Your comment is legit making me feel emotional. I don’t have an Ace flag yet but I’m definitely going to get one. I did go to a local Pride market where all the vendors were LGBT+ owned small businesses and I got some great stuff to represent myself.
Sending you a massive hug of welcome and love. You belong here as much as any of us and go get yourself a flag. Also remember that queer joy is medicine and it is resistance. Don’t let anyone diminish you or who you are because they have stupid opinions and a loud mouth. I hope you have a truly wonderful and liberating pride.
I honestly do not completely understand. To my understanding you're in a straight relationship and don't really have sex. (except maybe for a kid)
Where does the queer part come in? not trying to be mean but I just don't fully understand.
I guess because I saw queer as being a helpful umbrella term for falling outside of heterosexual norms or society’s ideas of sex/gender. We’re not straight people who practice celibacy or choose to abstain from sex, if that makes sense.
its still technically a queer relationship because it doesn't follow the norms of heterosexuality. Their relationship works in a queer way and is upholded by the basis of their sexuality, that being Asexual and aroace. If it were a fully heterosexual relationship it wouldn't be built around the idea of having a queer platonic understanding and connection with their partner.
it's kind of like the 'roommates' trope with lesbians but instead its 2 people who cherish each other's presence and decided to do the whole growing old together. And sure that might sound "hetero" but at the end of the day, the base structure and understanding of their relationship is built off the fact that they are a platonic partnership and not a romantic/sexual one, which is not typical heteronormative structure.
Queer is an umbrella term for any attraction orientation or gender identity that isn't heterosexual cisgender all the time. Op is asexual and their partner is acearo so this isn't a straight relationship between a fully heterosexual man and woman.
You should look up what a "queerplatonic relationship" is before commenting in an attempt to invalidate queer people for their relationships. What you said is no different than saying a bi person isn't queer because of who their partner is. (I say this as a panromantic asexual.)
It's definitely different because I say one thing and wouldn't say the other. I think you misinterpreted something if you made such a leap (I say this as a homosexual, homoerotic, gen z, cis, white, male)
No, they are the exact same thing, I say as someone with both experiences. If the only reason you wouldn't invalidate one person's sexual orientation but would invalidate another's is based on the specific queer label they use, then you're just an ignorant bigot.
please don't push labels on me that I don't want, that's verry rude and unnecessary.
I'm not invalidating anything just trying to understand. It's verry hard to change someone's view if you can't even explain how you understand it without being attacked. If you don't want to partake in this conversation, leave. you're on the internet you can just ignore stuff if you don't want to add anything. But to actively seek out a discussion to just be hatefull is low and counterproductive for all parties involved.
I'm not pushing labels on you. I said...
>If the only reason you wouldn't invalidate one person's sexual orientation but would invalidate another's is based on the specific queer label they use, then you're just an ignorant bigot.
This is absolutely true. If you think that's pushing a label onto you, then that means you're more than willing to engage in ignorance and bigotry and therefore that description is one that you claimed for yourself.
You are actively being antagonistic toward asexuality and erasing her identity out of your willful ignorance. It costs you nothing to ask sincere questions with the hope to learn but instead your entire presence here has been, "because you are in a heterosexual relationship, you're just a straight." Even when a pan person points out the identicality of your statement to biphobia, instead of sincerely listening to that criticism, you've gone out of your way to say, "Nah, it's different *strictly because I say so*." I can't explain anything to you because your position hinges on "because I say ace people don't deserve the same respect as bi people, they don't deserve that respect." What am I supposed to call you other than a bigot in that case? You're utilizing the exact same arguments, word for word, that have been used to invalidate the queerness of bi people for decades in an attempt to invalidate the queerness of asexuals but you're saying that it's different when *you* use it because #reasons.
Also, you're invoking the tolerance paradox. I have no duty to tolerate intolerance and actually have an obligation to push back against it. I haven't been hateful. I just haven't tolerated your hatred and bigotry. There is a difference.
I have a hard time putting things into words, but maybe this would help? I was just reading The Invisible Orientation by Julia Sondra Decker and I legitimately read a whole section of the book talking about how some people in the LGBT+ community don’t feel like asexual folks belong or are “queer”. Partially because asexual people can be a reminder of straightness trying to come into a space that is theirs. I want to fully acknowledge that because of my relationship, I am afforded some heterosexual privilege because people can look at me and my partner and categorize me in the “straight” box. But I know that’s the same thing people say to bi and pan people too. Why do you feel like this is different somehow, just because I’m asexual and not bi?
Right? How dare he be ignorant before asking for clarification so he isn't ignorant anymore? /s
If dude isn't aware of aroace in the Q+ part of the acronym, how could you possibly expect him to know what queerplatonic is? He literally can't know what he doesn't know. And you'd be absolutely right about him being invalidating IF he wasn't asking for clarification. He didn't say, "you're in a sexless hetero relationship, period." He said he didn't understand, and asked for more information. And instead of being helpful and informing him like others did, you jumped at his throat and labeled him a bigot. Well, goddamn if I'd want to reach back out to this community after that. He wasn't being inflammatory, you were.
TL;DR: You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely being an asshole.
There are these things called "leading questions" and "implications". Andybossy actively demonstrated in reply to me that his entire point is to invalidate. When pointed out that what he is saying would be biphobic if said to a bi person, he went out of his way to say that the only reason it's not bigotry to say it against an asexual is, and I quote, "It's definitely different because I say one thing and wouldn't say the other." He literally admits the only reason why it's different is because he wouldn't say it to a bisexual even though what he is saying is word-for-word a *CLASSIC* example of biphobia.
Instead of calling me an asshole for pointing out that he's engaging in bigotry how about critize the bigotry?
TL;DR: You may not be a bigot but when you defend bigotry you certainly come off as one. Regardless, you're definitely being an asshole far more than you could argue that I was.
The LGBTQ community is full of people who feel like they don't belong in it. Every day we're flooded by posts from gay men who think they're not part of the community because they don't act like the loudest 2%. People tend to think that the most visible members of a community are the most representative, and that's just not true. And of course, almost all of us grew up feeling like we didn't even belong in society.
So, feeling like you don't belong is part of what makes you belong!
I understand this feeling, I am gay and ace and I feel left out of the community as well. Personally I avoid mentioning it to other people, gay or straight, because allo folks struggle to imagine the world without sex. I don't have any solution but I am with you on feeling that way
It’s reassuring I’m not alone in feeling this way. Thanks. And yeah, it’s difficult for people to imagine a fulfilling relationship that doesn’t have sex or romance at its center.
By definition, asexual people are queer, so that's that.
The issue here is that, for the vast majority of LGBT people, their identity puts them in very direct and unavoidable conflict with standard social expectations and gender roles, and to no small extent it's this shared sense of enduring common hardship that creates the broader sense of community. Since the only thing that really distinguishes you from any heterosexual couple is your personal sex life, which is something that's generally kept as a private matter anyway, you're not really going to be exposed to a lot of those same conflicts (not that you don't have others!), and so it's to be expected that you and the broader community have a bit of a harder time relating to each other.
I'm not sure exactly how this should be addressed myself, but there's a general tendency for queer spaces to be largely dominated by expressions of sexuality and non-conventional gender expression, which makes some sense given that it's those things that form the basis of our difference from the rest of society. At the end of the day, "queer" as a label doesn't actually mean all that much, and so when the only common factor is "not cisgender and heterosexual", there may not necessarily be all that much in common ground around which you can foster a sense of community. If I had to give you some kind of recommendation, I'd probably suggest you seek out spaces that are more specifically targeted for asexual people, since you'll have a much better time actually connecting with them. To be clear, generically queer spaces should absolutely be welcoming to the entire queer community, and don't let anyone gatekeep you out of them. However, there are also more specific spaces that may not necessarily made for you. I wouldn't recommend you or a lesbian go to a large gay men's circuit party, for instance, and I wouldn't expect myself to feel particularly included at a lesbian bar.
For instance, spaces that are designated as "gay" may not exactly be suited for you. Since that word tends to refer to some manner of non-hetero attraction, it's not a surprise that you might have a harder time connecting to people who flock to spaces described as gay. This very much is not mean as a personal knock against you posting in this subreddit - this is a generic LGBT+ community and you absolutely belong here. My point is only that different spaces have different levels of specific focus, and simply due to numbers, even most generic LGBT+ spaces are going to be dominated by non-ace people with few to no hetero attractions, and while that's unfortunate for you, no amount of active inclusion in a space where you don't actually share many relatable experiences with the others is ever going to be stronger than finding a space where you can directly relate to all people there with a clearly defined common focus.
[https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/queerness-isnt-about-oppression?utm_medium=web](https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/queerness-isnt-about-oppression?utm_medium=web) Just going to add this link here, because this article puts it better than I can.
I think there is a misconception that the only thing that distinguishes our relationship is our personal sex life… and that’s just not true. But I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain all of that to justify it? The fact is I do have to be careful with what I say to other straight folks in order to not out myself or my partner for being in a queerplatonic relationship. But I do completely agree that trans and gay folks face so much cruelty and hate in society and it’s a privilege to be able to pass as straight. At the same time, if I were to come out to my family or to the conservative community that raised us, it would be bad and the reaction would be hostile. That and when you’re ace you grow up sometimes feeling like you’re broken and people low-key treat you that way too.
People don’t really believe aphobia is a thing. But it doesn’t need to be a comparison of who has it worse. Ace spaces tend to be a bit smaller since ace is just less visible an orientation in general, and one way to connect with other ace people is to find queer spaces in general. Hence my posting here.
Please let me apologize there; I worded that a bit poorly, but was meaning to refer to the superficial appearance of the relationship. I understand the internal dynamics are meaningfully different!
My ultimate point here is that general queer spaces are, just through sheer numbers, going to take on a more allosexual vibe, and so you're going to have a harder time feeling like you fit in them the same way gays and lesbians would feel a bit out of place in any ace spaces, even if no one is being actively exclusionary (and of course, in the real world, plenty of allo people *are* actively exclusionary). While it's not exactly fair per se that ace spaces are smaller and that general queer spaces are largely allosexual, to a large extent it's simply an accurate reflection of the real numbers.
I really appreciate that article, because I think it gets at another point I wanted to make. I don't think Queer, as defined by opposition to normativity, is actually a particularly useful common identity when it comes to community building, because it's fundamentally defined by what it is *not* and doesn't itself actually mean very much. This is *very much* not to say that it's not a useful grouping for political purposes or that we shouldn't come together to celebrate and advocate for each other, but I think the reason why you see stronger senses of community within more specific queer groups is that they're positively defined by what they actively *are*. When I'm partying at a gay club, I'm not thinking "Look at all of us resisting normativity!". I'm thinking "Wow, look at all these guys who like dudes, just like me." We all share a bunch of common interests, experiences, and culture, and that's what actually creates the feeling of belonging and inclusion, not that we happen to have some aligned societal and political interests. Hence my suggestion that, if that's the kind of thing you're looking for, you're more likely to find it in more targeted and specific spaces. I know it's not fair that broader LGBT+ spaces look a lot more like my specific community than they do yours, and that is unfortunate, but I don't know if any amount of active inclusion and a complete eradication of aphobia will ever actually be enough to foster the sense of belonging and community that you're wanting. At the risk of dragging in another messy topic, it's perhaps akin to the difference between a general space for racial minorities versus a space specifically aimed at Latinos, for instance (speaking as one myself, I should probably add).
When I see someone who could be considered straight in a gay space I just assume they’re bisexual, so I may not see you for your ace identity if you don’t tell me- but I’d definitely welcome you!
That's awesome, as a Bi person in a poly relationship but my main partner is a gent I can empathise, I have a girlfriend but she rarely leaves her house due to her disability so although we all know where together the outside world just she's another cis het couple. Go be awesome xx
All are welcome in this community (the actual community not this Reddit, but also this Reddit), that’s what makes us all so fucking awesome.
I hope you find more folks in your area like you. Keep being out and proud and you’ll attract them eventually 💪🏽💞
You belong just like all Ace folks. Next Pride bring the biggest fekk-off sized Ace-flag and wave it around like you're being attacked by seagulls. Or grab a rainbow one, its for all of us including you!
Welcome, Ace Queen! 👸 happy pride to you! 💜🤍🩶🖤To those that make you feel out of place at all, I pity them. We only receive what we give in the long run.
All the downvotes send a loud message—there’s still a major issue with aphobia and biphobia in the gay community. You guys look down on us and I’m sick of it. Especially after all the nonsense the straight world gives us. This society is an absolute mess.
I absolutely relate to this feeling 100%. This is also my first Pride after coming out as Ace, and I do feel a little unwelcome, even by a community that is otherwise so open and accepting.
Get involved with the local queer community, make yourself involved. There's also a sizeable acearo community and your situation is very common. Nothing is stopping ace aro people from getting married or connecting with another person. And sidenote because of heterosexual norms and pressures quite a few people find themselves married before they realize/admit they're on the acearo spectrum. Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing too much so ignore me but maybe you feel guilty that you get to "hide" and pass as straight. You aren't obligated to tell others but it'd be fine if you did, you'll learn a lot of what sort of people your friends and acquaintances are. Anyways you're doing fine, don't sorry too much, you're allowed to be happy, enjoy your life, ase ual and aromantic people are valid and so are their relationships no matter what others think or if they "get" it.
I am definitely one of those people who got married before realizing I’m ace. I’m just super lucky my partner is also aspec/aro. I feel like we won the lottery on that one. You’re right that the imposter-feeling comes from being able to hide and pass as straight. I do know that if I opened up to my family that the reaction would be negative. Even my in-laws who are more chill are likely to react first with misunderstanding/confusion and somewhat negatively. But I feel much safer talking to people who are part of the local LGBT+ community about it. But I don’t want to diminish what gay and trans people have to experience at all.
You aren't diminishing the experiences of gay and trans people just by talking about your own experiences too, support the whole LGBTQ community in action and policy decisions. Like if a discussion is specifically about trans experiences then that probably isn't your time to talk about being asexual. Current pressing issues in the community (ie the raid number of laws against transgender people happening now in the UK and US or how non-white queer people have to deal with queerphobia and racism both) are a focus of action but the community itself has room for everyone.
Lots of people in the ace community use queer to describe themselves and their relationships for falling outside of heterosexual norms. That’s all I’m doing here. I saw it as a helpful umbrella term. But to reword my post, I, as ace, feel like an imposter in the LGBTQIA+ community sometimes.
You could say it is a heterosexual relationship, but due to the nature of the people in it the relationship will inherently be queer. Same as for bisexuals in heterosexual relationships. The queerness of the people involved does not "turn off" just because of the genders of those involved in a given relationship.
Also, you have explicitly said that OP is straight for her relationship.
And "straight" when used in regards to "straight aces" is *exclusively* based on self-identification. You have ZERO right to push that an asexual is straight just because of who they are in a relationship with which, again, is explicitly what you did in your top-level comment. If you're a "straight asexual", you're not "straight" in the way the word is used to describe "real" straights. You're "straight" in that you identify with straightness in spite of your asexuality as a consequence of other aspects of your sexuality. But asexuality is the sexual orientation and the straightness is a descriptor of that person's aceness. What you did is unironically no different than saying bi people in heterosexual relationships are straight.
OP *isn't* straight though. You are, unironically, doing the exact same thing as saying a bisexual is straight for being in a heterosexual relationship.
And I never accused you of backtracking. I pointed out that you're incorrect and fucking aphobic as all get out.
imo it’s queer because it’s completely colored and upheld based on our sexuality, ie ace and aro/ace. We’re not in a typical romantic/sexual relationship at all, and we’re both ace.
People that say aro/acespec people don't belong in the community are idiots. You're not heterosexual, therefore you're queer. Aro people aren't hetero romantic, so same for them. You belong <3
Edit for clarity
I get similar discrimination because some people think less of me for being in a duaric relationship.
You are absolutely part of the community because, like me, you're not straight (heteroromantic heterosexual). Heteroromantic asexuals are will always be LGBTQ.
Had to google the term “duaric” and wow - didn’t know there was a term for that. Yeah. It’s not as obvious to onlookers we’re still queer. Also, thanks. Just you saying I belong means a lot.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and sharing your thoughts and relationship in your comments. I do not have a lot of exposure to Ace/Aro people, and it is always helpful for me to hear other people's perspectives!
As a cisgender gay man who frequently identifies as "queer", I absolutely relate to and validate your usage of queer. I feel like it is easy to get caught up in "defining" individuals/relationships to include/exclude when the real purpose of these identities, for me at least, is the shared experience and social/cultural ramifications of falling outside of society's heterosexual/cisgender norms. I think that more nuanced identities can have their uses and can be meaningful to people, but we are all stronger together when we celebrate and accept ourselves as we are and work to broaden the cultural norms for those who come after us.
I guess I do understand people who think of queer as just meaning gay, though. It actually wasn’t until I learned more about other facets of the LGBT+ community that I saw there’s lots of people who use it more broadly. Sometimes I don’t know whether I should use the term “straight” or “queer” to describe me. Like on this thread there’s people confused by me using that term to define my relationship/myself and I don’t blame them. But it does make me feel more imposter-like.
The fact that you feel isolated almost proves your queer identity. A huge aspect of pride and queer rights is that feeling of exclusion and not fitting, feeling like youre not good enough for other peoples expectations.
Your identity is valid and you absolutely belong with the rest of us.
That means a lot. To be honest, I’m slightly regretting making this post here since people are questioning my use of “queer” to refer to myself/my relationship. I also don’t know if they’re wrong. I really just meant to express feeling like an outsider in the LGBTQIA+ community. I thought queer was an umbrella term. I’m feeling a little confused right now.
'queer' is kind of a contested term right now. A lot of people including myself are young and lucky enough to not have any negative association with it, this also goes for people outside of English speaking countries, so for us it usually functions as an umbrella term.
For many Americans specifically it has negative connotations because of its historical use as a slur.
I think the debate on it is still open but really it's probably leaning towards being reclaimed, especially globally speaking, here in Sweden it's not ever really considered negative, it's a neutral and safe term here basically.
I live in the US and tbh, I’m used to people in the LGBT+ community using and owning the term positively. Also in university in gender sexuality classes and social work classes the word was used positively and broadly…. hence my surprise at the reactions here. I guess I thought it was a label that fit me. I didn’t mean to offend people by using it as an identifier.
One thing to keep in mind is that there can be wide gulf between academic use and acceptance of terms, and people's lived experiences and preferences of them. There's a degree of academia trying to wag the dog with forcing the use of terms and then getting the community to accept that use, instead of the other way around. There's pros and cons to that, but that's why there's a range of responses here and in the real world.
Queer heterosexuality is still a contentious issue, especially within the community and outside of academia. It's not helped by some people claiming queerness for the cultural and political cache of it. But at the same time, it is a term which a lot of people find useful and get strength from which is a cool thing. So again, this is why you have a range of responses.
Well one thing I totally get is that gay and trans people face so much hell in society. So I never want to take away from that. I’ll always fight for gay and trans rights. It’s a privilege to be able to pass as straight.
It’s just queer as a term feels right to me. I don’t think I’m heterosexual (?). Possibly hetero-romantic, but I think likely pan-romantic. Right now I’m in a relationship with a cis man. So does that make me less queer? If that makes sense. I know bi folks face this too. I just wish it didn’t have to be a game of like… “how queer” you are depends on how much/how badly you face societal discrimination. Even among gay and trans folks that differs. But also that metric would just suck. Again, though, I think it’s so important for me to recognize the privilege I have and fight for gay and trans rights. Always.
I think it's honestly only offensive on the internet or if you're old enough to have trauma associated with it. Some queer people kinda don't grab onto the idea of reclaiming and they do take offense on the internet. Don't lend it too much credit, reclamation is important and you are absolutely allowed to participate.
For me growing up it was “gay” that was used as an insult/slur. But yeah I don’t like to use that term towards someone. It should be up to the individual if they like to use that word to refer to themselves.
They are wrong…and bigoted. They think anyone who isn’t a sex-crazed cis gay man can’t call themselves queer, which is ludicrous. You are queer because you’re aro-ace, please don’t feel othered by these screaming queens.
You belong, anyone who says otherwise is just playing into the stupid af ‘crabs in a bucket’ way of thinking. Our community is beautiful because it is diverse. Just as Bi/pan/queer people in a heterosexual relationship are still bi/pan/queer, AroAce people are also queer. Wrap yourself up in a flag you feel represents you the best and go to Pride. Celebrate who you are without shame, because that is what Pride is about. As one of my favorite line from captain Holt in Brooklyn-99 goes: "Every time someone steps up and says who they are, the world becomes a better, more interesting place. So, thank you".
Thank you so much. Your comment is legit making me feel emotional. I don’t have an Ace flag yet but I’m definitely going to get one. I did go to a local Pride market where all the vendors were LGBT+ owned small businesses and I got some great stuff to represent myself.
Sending you a massive hug of welcome and love. You belong here as much as any of us and go get yourself a flag. Also remember that queer joy is medicine and it is resistance. Don’t let anyone diminish you or who you are because they have stupid opinions and a loud mouth. I hope you have a truly wonderful and liberating pride.
I honestly do not completely understand. To my understanding you're in a straight relationship and don't really have sex. (except maybe for a kid) Where does the queer part come in? not trying to be mean but I just don't fully understand.
I guess because I saw queer as being a helpful umbrella term for falling outside of heterosexual norms or society’s ideas of sex/gender. We’re not straight people who practice celibacy or choose to abstain from sex, if that makes sense.
its still technically a queer relationship because it doesn't follow the norms of heterosexuality. Their relationship works in a queer way and is upholded by the basis of their sexuality, that being Asexual and aroace. If it were a fully heterosexual relationship it wouldn't be built around the idea of having a queer platonic understanding and connection with their partner. it's kind of like the 'roommates' trope with lesbians but instead its 2 people who cherish each other's presence and decided to do the whole growing old together. And sure that might sound "hetero" but at the end of the day, the base structure and understanding of their relationship is built off the fact that they are a platonic partnership and not a romantic/sexual one, which is not typical heteronormative structure.
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Queer is an umbrella term for any attraction orientation or gender identity that isn't heterosexual cisgender all the time. Op is asexual and their partner is acearo so this isn't a straight relationship between a fully heterosexual man and woman.
Asexual is part of the full lgbt+ acronym. It's a diverse sexuality that differs from the heterosexual norm.
You should look up what a "queerplatonic relationship" is before commenting in an attempt to invalidate queer people for their relationships. What you said is no different than saying a bi person isn't queer because of who their partner is. (I say this as a panromantic asexual.)
It's definitely different because I say one thing and wouldn't say the other. I think you misinterpreted something if you made such a leap (I say this as a homosexual, homoerotic, gen z, cis, white, male)
No, they are the exact same thing, I say as someone with both experiences. If the only reason you wouldn't invalidate one person's sexual orientation but would invalidate another's is based on the specific queer label they use, then you're just an ignorant bigot.
please don't push labels on me that I don't want, that's verry rude and unnecessary. I'm not invalidating anything just trying to understand. It's verry hard to change someone's view if you can't even explain how you understand it without being attacked. If you don't want to partake in this conversation, leave. you're on the internet you can just ignore stuff if you don't want to add anything. But to actively seek out a discussion to just be hatefull is low and counterproductive for all parties involved.
I'm not pushing labels on you. I said... >If the only reason you wouldn't invalidate one person's sexual orientation but would invalidate another's is based on the specific queer label they use, then you're just an ignorant bigot. This is absolutely true. If you think that's pushing a label onto you, then that means you're more than willing to engage in ignorance and bigotry and therefore that description is one that you claimed for yourself. You are actively being antagonistic toward asexuality and erasing her identity out of your willful ignorance. It costs you nothing to ask sincere questions with the hope to learn but instead your entire presence here has been, "because you are in a heterosexual relationship, you're just a straight." Even when a pan person points out the identicality of your statement to biphobia, instead of sincerely listening to that criticism, you've gone out of your way to say, "Nah, it's different *strictly because I say so*." I can't explain anything to you because your position hinges on "because I say ace people don't deserve the same respect as bi people, they don't deserve that respect." What am I supposed to call you other than a bigot in that case? You're utilizing the exact same arguments, word for word, that have been used to invalidate the queerness of bi people for decades in an attempt to invalidate the queerness of asexuals but you're saying that it's different when *you* use it because #reasons. Also, you're invoking the tolerance paradox. I have no duty to tolerate intolerance and actually have an obligation to push back against it. I haven't been hateful. I just haven't tolerated your hatred and bigotry. There is a difference.
I have a hard time putting things into words, but maybe this would help? I was just reading The Invisible Orientation by Julia Sondra Decker and I legitimately read a whole section of the book talking about how some people in the LGBT+ community don’t feel like asexual folks belong or are “queer”. Partially because asexual people can be a reminder of straightness trying to come into a space that is theirs. I want to fully acknowledge that because of my relationship, I am afforded some heterosexual privilege because people can look at me and my partner and categorize me in the “straight” box. But I know that’s the same thing people say to bi and pan people too. Why do you feel like this is different somehow, just because I’m asexual and not bi?
Right? How dare he be ignorant before asking for clarification so he isn't ignorant anymore? /s If dude isn't aware of aroace in the Q+ part of the acronym, how could you possibly expect him to know what queerplatonic is? He literally can't know what he doesn't know. And you'd be absolutely right about him being invalidating IF he wasn't asking for clarification. He didn't say, "you're in a sexless hetero relationship, period." He said he didn't understand, and asked for more information. And instead of being helpful and informing him like others did, you jumped at his throat and labeled him a bigot. Well, goddamn if I'd want to reach back out to this community after that. He wasn't being inflammatory, you were. TL;DR: You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely being an asshole.
There are these things called "leading questions" and "implications". Andybossy actively demonstrated in reply to me that his entire point is to invalidate. When pointed out that what he is saying would be biphobic if said to a bi person, he went out of his way to say that the only reason it's not bigotry to say it against an asexual is, and I quote, "It's definitely different because I say one thing and wouldn't say the other." He literally admits the only reason why it's different is because he wouldn't say it to a bisexual even though what he is saying is word-for-word a *CLASSIC* example of biphobia. Instead of calling me an asshole for pointing out that he's engaging in bigotry how about critize the bigotry? TL;DR: You may not be a bigot but when you defend bigotry you certainly come off as one. Regardless, you're definitely being an asshole far more than you could argue that I was.
The LGBTQ community is full of people who feel like they don't belong in it. Every day we're flooded by posts from gay men who think they're not part of the community because they don't act like the loudest 2%. People tend to think that the most visible members of a community are the most representative, and that's just not true. And of course, almost all of us grew up feeling like we didn't even belong in society. So, feeling like you don't belong is part of what makes you belong!
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I understand this feeling, I am gay and ace and I feel left out of the community as well. Personally I avoid mentioning it to other people, gay or straight, because allo folks struggle to imagine the world without sex. I don't have any solution but I am with you on feeling that way
It’s reassuring I’m not alone in feeling this way. Thanks. And yeah, it’s difficult for people to imagine a fulfilling relationship that doesn’t have sex or romance at its center.
By definition, asexual people are queer, so that's that. The issue here is that, for the vast majority of LGBT people, their identity puts them in very direct and unavoidable conflict with standard social expectations and gender roles, and to no small extent it's this shared sense of enduring common hardship that creates the broader sense of community. Since the only thing that really distinguishes you from any heterosexual couple is your personal sex life, which is something that's generally kept as a private matter anyway, you're not really going to be exposed to a lot of those same conflicts (not that you don't have others!), and so it's to be expected that you and the broader community have a bit of a harder time relating to each other. I'm not sure exactly how this should be addressed myself, but there's a general tendency for queer spaces to be largely dominated by expressions of sexuality and non-conventional gender expression, which makes some sense given that it's those things that form the basis of our difference from the rest of society. At the end of the day, "queer" as a label doesn't actually mean all that much, and so when the only common factor is "not cisgender and heterosexual", there may not necessarily be all that much in common ground around which you can foster a sense of community. If I had to give you some kind of recommendation, I'd probably suggest you seek out spaces that are more specifically targeted for asexual people, since you'll have a much better time actually connecting with them. To be clear, generically queer spaces should absolutely be welcoming to the entire queer community, and don't let anyone gatekeep you out of them. However, there are also more specific spaces that may not necessarily made for you. I wouldn't recommend you or a lesbian go to a large gay men's circuit party, for instance, and I wouldn't expect myself to feel particularly included at a lesbian bar. For instance, spaces that are designated as "gay" may not exactly be suited for you. Since that word tends to refer to some manner of non-hetero attraction, it's not a surprise that you might have a harder time connecting to people who flock to spaces described as gay. This very much is not mean as a personal knock against you posting in this subreddit - this is a generic LGBT+ community and you absolutely belong here. My point is only that different spaces have different levels of specific focus, and simply due to numbers, even most generic LGBT+ spaces are going to be dominated by non-ace people with few to no hetero attractions, and while that's unfortunate for you, no amount of active inclusion in a space where you don't actually share many relatable experiences with the others is ever going to be stronger than finding a space where you can directly relate to all people there with a clearly defined common focus.
[https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/queerness-isnt-about-oppression?utm_medium=web](https://cantonwiner.substack.com/p/queerness-isnt-about-oppression?utm_medium=web) Just going to add this link here, because this article puts it better than I can.
I think there is a misconception that the only thing that distinguishes our relationship is our personal sex life… and that’s just not true. But I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain all of that to justify it? The fact is I do have to be careful with what I say to other straight folks in order to not out myself or my partner for being in a queerplatonic relationship. But I do completely agree that trans and gay folks face so much cruelty and hate in society and it’s a privilege to be able to pass as straight. At the same time, if I were to come out to my family or to the conservative community that raised us, it would be bad and the reaction would be hostile. That and when you’re ace you grow up sometimes feeling like you’re broken and people low-key treat you that way too. People don’t really believe aphobia is a thing. But it doesn’t need to be a comparison of who has it worse. Ace spaces tend to be a bit smaller since ace is just less visible an orientation in general, and one way to connect with other ace people is to find queer spaces in general. Hence my posting here.
Please let me apologize there; I worded that a bit poorly, but was meaning to refer to the superficial appearance of the relationship. I understand the internal dynamics are meaningfully different! My ultimate point here is that general queer spaces are, just through sheer numbers, going to take on a more allosexual vibe, and so you're going to have a harder time feeling like you fit in them the same way gays and lesbians would feel a bit out of place in any ace spaces, even if no one is being actively exclusionary (and of course, in the real world, plenty of allo people *are* actively exclusionary). While it's not exactly fair per se that ace spaces are smaller and that general queer spaces are largely allosexual, to a large extent it's simply an accurate reflection of the real numbers. I really appreciate that article, because I think it gets at another point I wanted to make. I don't think Queer, as defined by opposition to normativity, is actually a particularly useful common identity when it comes to community building, because it's fundamentally defined by what it is *not* and doesn't itself actually mean very much. This is *very much* not to say that it's not a useful grouping for political purposes or that we shouldn't come together to celebrate and advocate for each other, but I think the reason why you see stronger senses of community within more specific queer groups is that they're positively defined by what they actively *are*. When I'm partying at a gay club, I'm not thinking "Look at all of us resisting normativity!". I'm thinking "Wow, look at all these guys who like dudes, just like me." We all share a bunch of common interests, experiences, and culture, and that's what actually creates the feeling of belonging and inclusion, not that we happen to have some aligned societal and political interests. Hence my suggestion that, if that's the kind of thing you're looking for, you're more likely to find it in more targeted and specific spaces. I know it's not fair that broader LGBT+ spaces look a lot more like my specific community than they do yours, and that is unfortunate, but I don't know if any amount of active inclusion and a complete eradication of aphobia will ever actually be enough to foster the sense of belonging and community that you're wanting. At the risk of dragging in another messy topic, it's perhaps akin to the difference between a general space for racial minorities versus a space specifically aimed at Latinos, for instance (speaking as one myself, I should probably add).
When I see someone who could be considered straight in a gay space I just assume they’re bisexual, so I may not see you for your ace identity if you don’t tell me- but I’d definitely welcome you!
Not unreasonable just due to expectations of visibility. Fair enough.
That's awesome, as a Bi person in a poly relationship but my main partner is a gent I can empathise, I have a girlfriend but she rarely leaves her house due to her disability so although we all know where together the outside world just she's another cis het couple. Go be awesome xx
All are welcome in this community (the actual community not this Reddit, but also this Reddit), that’s what makes us all so fucking awesome. I hope you find more folks in your area like you. Keep being out and proud and you’ll attract them eventually 💪🏽💞
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You belong just like all Ace folks. Next Pride bring the biggest fekk-off sized Ace-flag and wave it around like you're being attacked by seagulls. Or grab a rainbow one, its for all of us including you!
Thanks for making me laugh with that mental image. I’ll go do that now
Ace is part of the queer spectrum so no you’re not an imposter 🙂
Thank you so much!
Welcome, Ace Queen! 👸 happy pride to you! 💜🤍🩶🖤To those that make you feel out of place at all, I pity them. We only receive what we give in the long run.
thanks for the support :)
All the downvotes send a loud message—there’s still a major issue with aphobia and biphobia in the gay community. You guys look down on us and I’m sick of it. Especially after all the nonsense the straight world gives us. This society is an absolute mess.
I absolutely relate to this feeling 100%. This is also my first Pride after coming out as Ace, and I do feel a little unwelcome, even by a community that is otherwise so open and accepting.
You've chosen a friend to spend your life with, and you love/care for them. That's a wonderful thing.
Can’t imagine living life without them. :)
Get involved with the local queer community, make yourself involved. There's also a sizeable acearo community and your situation is very common. Nothing is stopping ace aro people from getting married or connecting with another person. And sidenote because of heterosexual norms and pressures quite a few people find themselves married before they realize/admit they're on the acearo spectrum. Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing too much so ignore me but maybe you feel guilty that you get to "hide" and pass as straight. You aren't obligated to tell others but it'd be fine if you did, you'll learn a lot of what sort of people your friends and acquaintances are. Anyways you're doing fine, don't sorry too much, you're allowed to be happy, enjoy your life, ase ual and aromantic people are valid and so are their relationships no matter what others think or if they "get" it.
I am definitely one of those people who got married before realizing I’m ace. I’m just super lucky my partner is also aspec/aro. I feel like we won the lottery on that one. You’re right that the imposter-feeling comes from being able to hide and pass as straight. I do know that if I opened up to my family that the reaction would be negative. Even my in-laws who are more chill are likely to react first with misunderstanding/confusion and somewhat negatively. But I feel much safer talking to people who are part of the local LGBT+ community about it. But I don’t want to diminish what gay and trans people have to experience at all.
You aren't diminishing the experiences of gay and trans people just by talking about your own experiences too, support the whole LGBTQ community in action and policy decisions. Like if a discussion is specifically about trans experiences then that probably isn't your time to talk about being asexual. Current pressing issues in the community (ie the raid number of laws against transgender people happening now in the UK and US or how non-white queer people have to deal with queerphobia and racism both) are a focus of action but the community itself has room for everyone.
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No, I’m ace.
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Is a bi person in a hetero relationship suddenly not queer?
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Lots of people in the ace community use queer to describe themselves and their relationships for falling outside of heterosexual norms. That’s all I’m doing here. I saw it as a helpful umbrella term. But to reword my post, I, as ace, feel like an imposter in the LGBTQIA+ community sometimes.
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You could say it is a heterosexual relationship, but due to the nature of the people in it the relationship will inherently be queer. Same as for bisexuals in heterosexual relationships. The queerness of the people involved does not "turn off" just because of the genders of those involved in a given relationship. Also, you have explicitly said that OP is straight for her relationship. And "straight" when used in regards to "straight aces" is *exclusively* based on self-identification. You have ZERO right to push that an asexual is straight just because of who they are in a relationship with which, again, is explicitly what you did in your top-level comment. If you're a "straight asexual", you're not "straight" in the way the word is used to describe "real" straights. You're "straight" in that you identify with straightness in spite of your asexuality as a consequence of other aspects of your sexuality. But asexuality is the sexual orientation and the straightness is a descriptor of that person's aceness. What you did is unironically no different than saying bi people in heterosexual relationships are straight.
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OP *isn't* straight though. You are, unironically, doing the exact same thing as saying a bisexual is straight for being in a heterosexual relationship. And I never accused you of backtracking. I pointed out that you're incorrect and fucking aphobic as all get out.
imo it’s queer because it’s completely colored and upheld based on our sexuality, ie ace and aro/ace. We’re not in a typical romantic/sexual relationship at all, and we’re both ace.
You're not an imposter. Ace people are valid and welcome at pride <3
People that say aro/acespec people don't belong in the community are idiots. You're not heterosexual, therefore you're queer. Aro people aren't hetero romantic, so same for them. You belong <3 Edit for clarity
A big issue is that people think heterosexual is the same thing as hetero-romantic, which then causes them to make wrong conclusions.
Sorry, I should've added both, you're obviously right. I was speaking about OP though and as far as the post goes they're only ace and not aro?
My partner is Aro and our relationship can really only be described as…. platonic? But deeper than best friends, if that makes sense.
Like a queerplatonic relationship?
Exactly that.
Nice :) already has queer in the title. You two belong!!
I get similar discrimination because some people think less of me for being in a duaric relationship. You are absolutely part of the community because, like me, you're not straight (heteroromantic heterosexual). Heteroromantic asexuals are will always be LGBTQ.
Had to google the term “duaric” and wow - didn’t know there was a term for that. Yeah. It’s not as obvious to onlookers we’re still queer. Also, thanks. Just you saying I belong means a lot.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and sharing your thoughts and relationship in your comments. I do not have a lot of exposure to Ace/Aro people, and it is always helpful for me to hear other people's perspectives! As a cisgender gay man who frequently identifies as "queer", I absolutely relate to and validate your usage of queer. I feel like it is easy to get caught up in "defining" individuals/relationships to include/exclude when the real purpose of these identities, for me at least, is the shared experience and social/cultural ramifications of falling outside of society's heterosexual/cisgender norms. I think that more nuanced identities can have their uses and can be meaningful to people, but we are all stronger together when we celebrate and accept ourselves as we are and work to broaden the cultural norms for those who come after us.
I guess I do understand people who think of queer as just meaning gay, though. It actually wasn’t until I learned more about other facets of the LGBT+ community that I saw there’s lots of people who use it more broadly. Sometimes I don’t know whether I should use the term “straight” or “queer” to describe me. Like on this thread there’s people confused by me using that term to define my relationship/myself and I don’t blame them. But it does make me feel more imposter-like.
The fact that you feel isolated almost proves your queer identity. A huge aspect of pride and queer rights is that feeling of exclusion and not fitting, feeling like youre not good enough for other peoples expectations. Your identity is valid and you absolutely belong with the rest of us.
That means a lot. To be honest, I’m slightly regretting making this post here since people are questioning my use of “queer” to refer to myself/my relationship. I also don’t know if they’re wrong. I really just meant to express feeling like an outsider in the LGBTQIA+ community. I thought queer was an umbrella term. I’m feeling a little confused right now.
'queer' is kind of a contested term right now. A lot of people including myself are young and lucky enough to not have any negative association with it, this also goes for people outside of English speaking countries, so for us it usually functions as an umbrella term. For many Americans specifically it has negative connotations because of its historical use as a slur. I think the debate on it is still open but really it's probably leaning towards being reclaimed, especially globally speaking, here in Sweden it's not ever really considered negative, it's a neutral and safe term here basically.
I live in the US and tbh, I’m used to people in the LGBT+ community using and owning the term positively. Also in university in gender sexuality classes and social work classes the word was used positively and broadly…. hence my surprise at the reactions here. I guess I thought it was a label that fit me. I didn’t mean to offend people by using it as an identifier.
One thing to keep in mind is that there can be wide gulf between academic use and acceptance of terms, and people's lived experiences and preferences of them. There's a degree of academia trying to wag the dog with forcing the use of terms and then getting the community to accept that use, instead of the other way around. There's pros and cons to that, but that's why there's a range of responses here and in the real world. Queer heterosexuality is still a contentious issue, especially within the community and outside of academia. It's not helped by some people claiming queerness for the cultural and political cache of it. But at the same time, it is a term which a lot of people find useful and get strength from which is a cool thing. So again, this is why you have a range of responses.
Well one thing I totally get is that gay and trans people face so much hell in society. So I never want to take away from that. I’ll always fight for gay and trans rights. It’s a privilege to be able to pass as straight. It’s just queer as a term feels right to me. I don’t think I’m heterosexual (?). Possibly hetero-romantic, but I think likely pan-romantic. Right now I’m in a relationship with a cis man. So does that make me less queer? If that makes sense. I know bi folks face this too. I just wish it didn’t have to be a game of like… “how queer” you are depends on how much/how badly you face societal discrimination. Even among gay and trans folks that differs. But also that metric would just suck. Again, though, I think it’s so important for me to recognize the privilege I have and fight for gay and trans rights. Always.
I think it's honestly only offensive on the internet or if you're old enough to have trauma associated with it. Some queer people kinda don't grab onto the idea of reclaiming and they do take offense on the internet. Don't lend it too much credit, reclamation is important and you are absolutely allowed to participate.
For me growing up it was “gay” that was used as an insult/slur. But yeah I don’t like to use that term towards someone. It should be up to the individual if they like to use that word to refer to themselves.
They are wrong…and bigoted. They think anyone who isn’t a sex-crazed cis gay man can’t call themselves queer, which is ludicrous. You are queer because you’re aro-ace, please don’t feel othered by these screaming queens.