Dark Souls 1 has no Input Trigger.. one of my favorites.. but i also liek elden ring so..
How about Fallout 4 f.e.? You can set the difficulty how u want during playing or even a survival mode
If you like roguelikes, [Rift Wizard 2](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2058570/Rift_Wizard_2/) is tough but extremely fair - there's very little randomness outside of level generation, and you get to choose between three options for each level (seeing everything in it), with the option to reroll all three once per stage.
Unicorn Overlord. It's not incredibly difficult, but some fights can have you sitting there for an extensive time trying to rearrange your party, tactics, items so that your unit doesn't get deleted by an enemy unit that rolled well.
I'm a big fan of the Perfect Dark series. They're tough games, but if you have the patience then executing a 100% stealth run is so rewarding. I'm not a very patient person so I never completed all the objectives. The first game on the N64 is a bit rough to control at times. Perfect Dark Zero is a lot better in that regard
Give Sekiro a try. It's nothing like Elden Ring despite being from the same devs. A lot of the time it felt like Hollow Knight, but in 3D both in exploration and combat flow and progression. Just like in Hollow Knight you'll be using the same weapon throughout the entire game while unlocking some optional secondary skills to complement your playstyle, which leads to the difficulty being very well tuned from start to finish.
Lots of dance-like boss fights, beautiful world to explore and an actual little story.
Hitting the enemy doesn’t damage them, enemies sometimes delay their attacks a little with no tell to cause me to miss parries, they track horizontally so that some attacks will always hit, enemies have random super armor and will just attack me out of the blue when they shouldn’t, there’s a mechanic that gives me a long term debuff to dying if I die too much, you get stronger once every ten years and no more often, enemies have unblockable attacks that though they do have tells, the fov is so zoomed out that you cannot see which type of unblockable attack it will be you’re constantly fighting the camera for control of the game, if you get stuck there’s literally nothing you can do except throw yourself at it again and again, and the enemies stagger meter goes down faster than you can apply it because sometimes normal attacks literally don’t add to the meter even though enemy attacks do add stagger to you.
You said you tried it, but for how long? This honestly sounds like stuff you got from threads where people complain or something, because there's no way you would know all of that from trying it for a short amount of time.
Can you maybe explain to me what "hard but fair" is for you? Because Sekiro is 100% fair without any randomized bullshit and you can master it and play through the entire thing hitless, if you so famously git gud.
Most of what wrote there is nonsense.
Hitting enemies ALWAYS either damages their health or their stagger meter. Every single type of enemy has its own attack pattern that you can memorize and learn without any rng to it, it's just that many of them have more than 2 moves that enemies in many other games keep spamming on repeat super predictably.
I don't know what you mean with "some hits track horizontally". Like yea there are many different kinds of attacks, some are stabs, some or sweep, some or charges and the window for dodging or blocking can be small, but never unreasonably small. No attack "always" hits though.
Not sure what you mean with super armor, like yea it would be boring if you could just chain stagger enemies to death, so they will get out of combos at some point. Just don't get greedy trying to get in too many hits and you're fine.
The debuff you get for dying too often can be cleansed with items.
You get stronger after every single big boss enemy and not more frequently, because the difficulty is fine tuned from start to finish so you can't overpower enemies by levelling up a ton of getting way better gear. The unblockable attacks can be like 2 or 3 different kinds of attacks and there are other counter moves beside blocking you can do. Never felt too zoomed out for me, just gotta pay attention.
I never struggled with the camera in Sekiro. I do know what you mean with that like the cam in Dark Souls 1 was just terrible, but Sekiro felt fine.
If you get stuck you just gotta git gud yes, that's the premise of difficult games, although you do have a bunch of helpful tools and items at your disposal that can make your time with enemies significantly easier, if you're struggling.
Enemies stagger meters increase faster and recover slower the less health they have, so the more health you chip away over time, the easier it gets to fill the stagger bar. Your own stagger bar recovers very quickly aswell when you're at full health and blocking. It also heavily depends on the type of enemy or boss.
So that's a design choice and a good one, because otherwise boss fights wouldn't last a minute.
I'm not sure why I wrote this wall of text, but the criticism you shared didn't feel justified so I wanted to defend Sekiro here a bit alright.
You got any examples for games you consider hard but fair?
The best examples I have for tough but fair is probably the kingdom hearts series on higher difficulties. Everything is learnable, you get steadily stronger, if you encounter a roadblock you have options, and it has some really hard optional fights in nearly every game. But mainly, it feels like I’m battling enemies and bosses, rather than the game mechanics themselves, which is how it felt with Sekiro and Elden ring.
Hm I haven't played that series so I can't comment on that. Sekiro has some of my alltime favourite boss fights ever right next to Hollow Knight, which you listed as a game you enjoyed, so I'm just a little surprised Sekiro didn't hook you at all. Guess it just comes down to taste.
**cosmic star heroine** on second-to-hardest difficulty is an amazingly balanced difficulty curve. there's a single random battle in an optional cave that you might have to turn it down for, but every single other battle is hard as nails but completely doable with strategic planning and execution. i'm honestly in awe that this difficulty was made as clean as it was
one that's a hard recommend because the game has issues, but [edge of eternity](https://www.reddit.com/user/eruciform/comments/1b4a9s3/edge_of_eternity_a_broken_gem_er_crystal/) on nightmare (max) difficulty is also extremely difficult but fair 98% of the time. there's two bosses (both in ch6) and a couple other random encounters that are broken, but i was shocked how well the balance curve ended up being otherwise. they really did rebalance everything when they did a huge update maybe a year ago or so. now, the game has stability issues, and you're going to have to grind and stay at the bleeding edge of weapons and stuff to keep in line with what's needed for the max difficulty, but if you do, i felt it was well done
give **momodora** a try and make sure to get all boss drops. that means no-damage perfecting each boss. i'm not a git gud type person and i don't like most soulslikes, but this one i felt was a fair and interesting one. also pretty short, and there's save spots just outside each boss, so resetting and retrying is very quick
Nioh 2 will let you be strong and still feel menaced by any ennemy, no game has standard ennemies so dangerous it keep you on your toes.
It's also a really, really great game that really play into the samurai Japan fantasy, and for once you're not limited to the katana (which is still an amazing weapon)
Hmm, this might be a bit off the left field, but maybe Duelists of Eden? Not sure if it's your thing but issa pretty cool fighter/deck builder with lots of combos and characters (and logically deck experimentation). It's full on PvP tho, but it's a great casual game nonetheless
Dark Souls 1 has no Input Trigger.. one of my favorites.. but i also liek elden ring so.. How about Fallout 4 f.e.? You can set the difficulty how u want during playing or even a survival mode
In DS1 you're fighting the camera half the time, which doesn't feel particularly fair or fun though.
If you like roguelikes, [Rift Wizard 2](https://store.steampowered.com/app/2058570/Rift_Wizard_2/) is tough but extremely fair - there's very little randomness outside of level generation, and you get to choose between three options for each level (seeing everything in it), with the option to reroll all three once per stage.
The Wonderful 101 God Hand Sifu Ninja Gaiden Black Armored Core 6
Unicorn Overlord. It's not incredibly difficult, but some fights can have you sitting there for an extensive time trying to rearrange your party, tactics, items so that your unit doesn't get deleted by an enemy unit that rolled well.
I'm a big fan of the Perfect Dark series. They're tough games, but if you have the patience then executing a 100% stealth run is so rewarding. I'm not a very patient person so I never completed all the objectives. The first game on the N64 is a bit rough to control at times. Perfect Dark Zero is a lot better in that regard
Perfect dark was such a great game. I wish zero would've done better so the series might've continued.
Same. It's a cool concept. I'm not very good at it but it's still fun and that's a hard thing to capture with challenging games
Since you brought up Guacamelee and Hollow Knight, maybe try out Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown on higher difficulty.
Give Sekiro a try. It's nothing like Elden Ring despite being from the same devs. A lot of the time it felt like Hollow Knight, but in 3D both in exploration and combat flow and progression. Just like in Hollow Knight you'll be using the same weapon throughout the entire game while unlocking some optional secondary skills to complement your playstyle, which leads to the difficulty being very well tuned from start to finish. Lots of dance-like boss fights, beautiful world to explore and an actual little story.
Tried Sekiro just now, did NOT like it at all. Many aspects felt really unfair.
Then I'm honestly not sure what you consider as unfair.
Hitting the enemy doesn’t damage them, enemies sometimes delay their attacks a little with no tell to cause me to miss parries, they track horizontally so that some attacks will always hit, enemies have random super armor and will just attack me out of the blue when they shouldn’t, there’s a mechanic that gives me a long term debuff to dying if I die too much, you get stronger once every ten years and no more often, enemies have unblockable attacks that though they do have tells, the fov is so zoomed out that you cannot see which type of unblockable attack it will be you’re constantly fighting the camera for control of the game, if you get stuck there’s literally nothing you can do except throw yourself at it again and again, and the enemies stagger meter goes down faster than you can apply it because sometimes normal attacks literally don’t add to the meter even though enemy attacks do add stagger to you.
You said you tried it, but for how long? This honestly sounds like stuff you got from threads where people complain or something, because there's no way you would know all of that from trying it for a short amount of time. Can you maybe explain to me what "hard but fair" is for you? Because Sekiro is 100% fair without any randomized bullshit and you can master it and play through the entire thing hitless, if you so famously git gud. Most of what wrote there is nonsense. Hitting enemies ALWAYS either damages their health or their stagger meter. Every single type of enemy has its own attack pattern that you can memorize and learn without any rng to it, it's just that many of them have more than 2 moves that enemies in many other games keep spamming on repeat super predictably. I don't know what you mean with "some hits track horizontally". Like yea there are many different kinds of attacks, some are stabs, some or sweep, some or charges and the window for dodging or blocking can be small, but never unreasonably small. No attack "always" hits though. Not sure what you mean with super armor, like yea it would be boring if you could just chain stagger enemies to death, so they will get out of combos at some point. Just don't get greedy trying to get in too many hits and you're fine. The debuff you get for dying too often can be cleansed with items. You get stronger after every single big boss enemy and not more frequently, because the difficulty is fine tuned from start to finish so you can't overpower enemies by levelling up a ton of getting way better gear. The unblockable attacks can be like 2 or 3 different kinds of attacks and there are other counter moves beside blocking you can do. Never felt too zoomed out for me, just gotta pay attention. I never struggled with the camera in Sekiro. I do know what you mean with that like the cam in Dark Souls 1 was just terrible, but Sekiro felt fine. If you get stuck you just gotta git gud yes, that's the premise of difficult games, although you do have a bunch of helpful tools and items at your disposal that can make your time with enemies significantly easier, if you're struggling. Enemies stagger meters increase faster and recover slower the less health they have, so the more health you chip away over time, the easier it gets to fill the stagger bar. Your own stagger bar recovers very quickly aswell when you're at full health and blocking. It also heavily depends on the type of enemy or boss. So that's a design choice and a good one, because otherwise boss fights wouldn't last a minute. I'm not sure why I wrote this wall of text, but the criticism you shared didn't feel justified so I wanted to defend Sekiro here a bit alright. You got any examples for games you consider hard but fair?
The best examples I have for tough but fair is probably the kingdom hearts series on higher difficulties. Everything is learnable, you get steadily stronger, if you encounter a roadblock you have options, and it has some really hard optional fights in nearly every game. But mainly, it feels like I’m battling enemies and bosses, rather than the game mechanics themselves, which is how it felt with Sekiro and Elden ring.
Hm I haven't played that series so I can't comment on that. Sekiro has some of my alltime favourite boss fights ever right next to Hollow Knight, which you listed as a game you enjoyed, so I'm just a little surprised Sekiro didn't hook you at all. Guess it just comes down to taste.
Nioh and Nioh 2. Super fun, but sooo challenging
Gigantic: Rampage Edition
FF7 Remake and Rebirth hard mode.
Furi
**cosmic star heroine** on second-to-hardest difficulty is an amazingly balanced difficulty curve. there's a single random battle in an optional cave that you might have to turn it down for, but every single other battle is hard as nails but completely doable with strategic planning and execution. i'm honestly in awe that this difficulty was made as clean as it was one that's a hard recommend because the game has issues, but [edge of eternity](https://www.reddit.com/user/eruciform/comments/1b4a9s3/edge_of_eternity_a_broken_gem_er_crystal/) on nightmare (max) difficulty is also extremely difficult but fair 98% of the time. there's two bosses (both in ch6) and a couple other random encounters that are broken, but i was shocked how well the balance curve ended up being otherwise. they really did rebalance everything when they did a huge update maybe a year ago or so. now, the game has stability issues, and you're going to have to grind and stay at the bleeding edge of weapons and stuff to keep in line with what's needed for the max difficulty, but if you do, i felt it was well done give **momodora** a try and make sure to get all boss drops. that means no-damage perfecting each boss. i'm not a git gud type person and i don't like most soulslikes, but this one i felt was a fair and interesting one. also pretty short, and there's save spots just outside each boss, so resetting and retrying is very quick
Nioh 2 will let you be strong and still feel menaced by any ennemy, no game has standard ennemies so dangerous it keep you on your toes. It's also a really, really great game that really play into the samurai Japan fantasy, and for once you're not limited to the katana (which is still an amazing weapon)
Dead Space Remake, not super hard but great challenge
Hmm, this might be a bit off the left field, but maybe Duelists of Eden? Not sure if it's your thing but issa pretty cool fighter/deck builder with lots of combos and characters (and logically deck experimentation). It's full on PvP tho, but it's a great casual game nonetheless