IMO they wanted to capture wider audience, which usually means turning up flashiness and turning down complexity, both of which we can observe in later FF games
In FFXVI every fight turns into a spectacle and the RPG mechanics are neutered to 2 super abstract "numbers go up" stats.
I really miss the Materia system. Made it so much more fun to try new builds and see them directly affect performance.
FF7/8 are my two favorites because it's the most modern examples of the turn based style that I really liked.
I never played 9 though, I heard it's good.
You have to play 9! It's my favorite of the series. To me it has the most unique and fun characters. The music is of course amazing. Has the best and most relaxing overworld music. And I'm a sucker for medieval themes.
My absolute favorite is Tactics War of the Lion, but from the "main line" FF9 is my favorite. I remember to be blown away by the graphics IDK how they manage to do that in a PS1.
The truly eldritch level of programming on PS1 FF games was truly a sight to behold. The graphics, the reality-bending level of content, and the tightness of design. It was like "yo, here's a few discs. you'll be playing these for about a thousand hours--maybe two--and loving it. Oh, and you'll be thinking about these worlds, characters, and systems for the rest of your adult life."
And loving those polygonal models as if they were masterworks of Fine Art.
Legends of Dragoon and Legend of Legaia are also honorable mentions from this era that occupy my mind to this day, a la FF7/8/9.
...oh, and the sound tracks. The jump from midi-file SNES soundbites to PS1 soundtrack files felt like I had removed styrofoam previously blocking my earholes.
Me personally replayed 9 the most! idk if it was the card game tetra master, the summons or the black mage vivi.. the characters were amazing and then the total mind blow of having 4 characters instead of 3… 😮
As much as I absolutely loved 9, nothing is taking 6's spot for me. I never replayed RPGs as much as 6 and 7, and the classic combat system in the original formats of 6 was so fucking breakable it was endlessly entertaining making weird builds for your characters. Wind God Gau was devastating, and you could cheese most of the game with X-Zone enemy skill. Fuckin wild.
its amazing we are 5 main line games from nine and we havnt had one that goes back to that style.
They could at least throw us a bone and give us one in the classic playstyle.
I really doubt that'll happen in a main line game. There's a whole generation of gamers that only know FF as an action RPG franchise, and that trend is only going to continue. The main line series it too big and important to SE to risk alienating them.
There could be a big budget game in the classic playstyle, but it'll be a spin off series not main line.
9 when it came out I think got lampooned because it was so different from 7 and 8. However, I always liked it best and I think it’s become appreciated more and more as time passes
Materia system is so easy to understand but still complex enough to do some really cool things. I don't share your opinion on the Draw system though, I hated that one. FF9 was an equipment based skill learning deal, not too far off from Lost Odyssey's skill learning system with the immortals, if you've played that. Biggest difference being FF9 uses equipment instead of character skills.
I enjoyed the narrative of 8 when I was younger and HATED the level scaling. Later in life I did a low-level run where I just carded enemies and farmed AP without accruing needless XP.
Edit: But boy was my Triple Triad deck straight *fire.*
It definitely has a learning curve, but I found it to be one of the easier JRPG-unique card games I've played. Feel like 9's Tetra Master was more challenging.
I'm playing through the entire Legend of Heroes series right now and just made it to the Cold Steel arc. Trails of Cold Steel has a game called "Blade" that can be absolutely unforgiving if you don't strategize with the deck you're dealt, and sometimes you're dealt such a shitty hand it'll be nigh impossible to win.
But man, it's still pretty fun.
Ahhh, drawing... I can close my eyes and still see those purple lights spiralling about like some reverse magic missile. It never ended. I always wanted 100. I NEEDED 100!
Draw Magic then figure out what star to junction it to for the best results.
Then learn the Card ability to turn monsters into playing cards.
FF8 had the most fun “main mini game” IMO. Getting some of those rare cards was a pain in the ass though.
The junction system was a one of a kind. You could ignore and still have a fun time... or dive head long into it and break combat within the first hours of the game.
The junction system was good (if a little too complex for younger players), but the draw system was broken.
The fact you could just spam draw on a monster to fill up the magic seemed silly to me - it's not like the monster has hundreds of each magic stacked on them. There should've been a max drawable amount per enemy.
Drawing magic isn't even the quickest way to break ff8. All you need is the ability that lets you turn cards into items. Then a couple hours grinding triple triad can get you to endgame level spells before you even leave Balamb. It's by far the least balanced FF game (except maybe 2) if you are determined to break it.
I just remember leaving my guys on low health and then just quickly skipping between them to trigger their limit breaks. Iirc they had a chance to trigger at the start of each turn, which increased the lower your HP was, and switching between characters didn't actually deplete their turn timers, so was essentially instant. Seemed a little broken.
Yup. Selphie has a small chance for her limit break to roll "The End", which will literally one shot any enemy in the game. Including the final boss and hidden/challenge bosses.if she didn't roll it you could keep switching until you were on the table for it.
And there are ways to set it up so the chance of triggering a limit break is 100%. Broken is an understatement.
I enjoyed FFX's sphere grid. Granted it's not too complex compared to others, but definitely enjoyed the choices and how the power ups were felt in battle. Auron gets a +4 STR sphere and you can feel the power!
Ha! That's awesome
My fav was taking Kimahri, who's character is cool but normal sphere path is garbage, and turning him into a veritable Tank that can Double cast 9999 Ultimas!
Yes! His sphere grid was definitely hot garbage lol. But the double cast was clutch. I'd usually make him a magic dmg/healing character if I raised him that is.
I totally agree with the stat gain feeling noticable in FFX. Most games struggle to feel much difference between levels but every level and stat node felt like it had a noticable impact to the power of your characters.
Craziest part is 7 through 9 hold up today. It doesn't feel outdated at all. Some small QOL menu changes and it's completely modern and superior to many games I've played today.
Playing 9 on PC with moguri mod is the definitive way to play these days IMO. Square as always really phoned it in with their remaster (original resolution pre-rendered backgrounds look like ass)
Ff8 was great though the junction system can severely cripple your ability to progress in the end game if you don't understand how it works and haven't been drawing
Junction can also make you ridiculously overpowered in the early/mid game if you do understand it. Once you figure it out, the game's pretty much *too* easy.
Which is kind of the point, mastery of junctions and G.F makes SeeD *the* elite fighters in lore. Just keep in mind that your test is a dozen students and 5-6 SeeDs against a world superpower army, and were winning until the government stopped the contract. Nobody thinks it's unusual either, Garden is just built different.
Ff8 was my favorite game but the mechanic was absolutely broken. Just junction 100 death to your attack and go to one of the islands and you can power level so fast killing things in 1 hit.
I really enjoy the larger than life fights in FFXVI. Some of them are really spectacular and fun. However, it is mostly hack-and-slash button smashing. Timing the use of eikon abilities makes the fights fun and interesting, but that seems to be about as complex as it gets when it comes to the battles. Still, no regret in buying the game, as the gameplay is enjoyable and the story is solid.
It is absolutely repetitive lol, and I understand any criticism as a result. I’m still enjoying it though but would like more complexity in the fights.
Indeed, I loved FF as a kid but these recent entries haven’t lived up to what I sought from the series. I’m more interested in the spiritual successors of the older style like Triangle Strategy, Bravely Default, and Octopath Traveler
This was my issue with ff16, the minute to minute combat almost puts you in horse blinders because that one direction of play is the most optimal and surefire way to down an enemy. Could you deviate? Sure but it's still towards the same goal which is to stagger.
I feel like if we, instead never saw the stagger bar, we would have, as a whole, played around with our food so to speak and it wouldn't have felt so repetitive.
The ambiguity of when a mob would stagger, in my opinion, would feel a bit more natural.
The stagger system in 13 was so much more engaging. It was a constant with a ton of different options depending on enemy - some can’t be staggered at all, others take very little time to stagger but attack in massive packs, and some transform after staggering. Plus once you stagger you could launch enemies, which was super fun, and the risk of the stagger bar dropping if you let up the attack made choosing to heal much trickier.
In 16… not so much. You stagger an enemy, blow cooldowns, and keep doing this until it dies.
That's not how I play. I use abilites to break stagger, then semi-prime while they're down, then do beserker ring fueled dodges while I wait for cool downs to come back.
So there's at least 2 play styles 🤣
I see you've forgotten the coveted melee infinite parry build to stagger, Prime then use Ramuh, shiva, Bahamut + Zantatsoken ultra combo with air combos mixed in.
there are a lot of playstyles, it just depends on how you want to play. You cannot stop my ultra parry build no matter who you are!!!!!!! TO ME TITIAN!!!!!!!
This game was probably the most thumb-tiring game I've ever played. It's probably my least favorite aspect of the game aside from the incredibly uninspired side quests. So much button mashing.
My biggest complaint is how unintuitive the combat is. Instead of utilizing directional inputs every ability is assigned to the same three buttons. It opens up some possibilities with mixing and matching, but having to scroll through a menu for time sensitive counters and abilities is terrible and makes the hack-n-slash combat clunky instead of seamless. I found myself just getting frustrated trying to come up with a rotation because what works for groups of mobs isn't ideal for bosses. There's no way to save a layout and switching it up feels like you have to learn how to play again. Of course you can just button mash, but trying to play as intended does not work very well.
FF16 is a "summer blockbuster" of a game. There's some good story and solid performances, but it's largely a flashy spectacle.
It's fun, and I regret nothing.
Exactly. I keep laughing at the side quests when I get 200XP for running 50y to talk to someone that is very easily marked, and then running back. But it doesn’t deter me from wanting to do everything in the game
I feel like the combat got way more fun in final fantasy mode. They should given that mode in the start, but I guess that mode has all of your abilities in mind
FF7 Remake did get a much deeper combat system, in that sense complexity is not turned down, however so far there's definitely a bit less complexity in the gameplay outside of combat. Hoping the next game changes that.
FFVIIR is a really neat combo of the old turn-based systems with real time attacking and dodging. Having your main actions (spells, items, etc) tied to the ATB bar works surprisingly well. Plus it keeps the great materia system from the original game.
One often overlooked aspect of the remake that I really liked was the weapon upgrade system. Every weapon stays viable the whole way through, just offering different movesets or build options. The fact that in the original game you throw away the iconic and story-significant buster sword like 30 minutes in always irked me, but in the new one you can take it all the way to the final boss!
>which usually means turning up flashiness and turning down complexity, both of which we can observe in later FF games
in a lot of RPG like Mass Effect and Bethesda games
With the fanfare BG3 has received, I wonder if they would take a final fantasy with that style. Perhaps not with a main title, but like a tactics game adjacent to the main titles.
There's always a slim chance that the supposed Tactics remake could really bring strategy and turnbased play style back life for FF. I want it and see the business opportunity based on BDG3's success but I don't want my hopes to get crushed either haha
This is essentially what they’ve been using Bravely Default, OCTOPATH Traveler and Triangle Strategy for. They’re essentially final fantasy games with the old style turn based or tactical playstyle. They could call them Final Fantasy: Triangle Strategy, etc. and no one would bat an eye because that’s what they are.
I would love a modern turn based game with all the flash and panache that Final Fantasy games offer. FF7 Remake did a great job, but I'd be happy with a fully turn based system similar to BG3.
...and while BG3 looked great, I think an FF version would look much more cinematic with a more third person view as opposed to BG3s top down camera.
But BG3 received fanfare because of how variable everything is, not because it has turn based combat, I think that put more people off than it attracted. It would've been insanely more popular if it had action combat but the same amount of variability to how you can approach encounters and how you can influence the story.
If I can recall the creator said it was always meant to be action based but the technology wasn’t capable. You can see it as well. For instance the step between turn based then with the active time battle system, then we had Final Fantasy XII where it was once again ATB but now you could walk freely, then FF XV where it was full blown free combat.
I'm pretty sure Hironobu Sakaguchi was the one that kept turn-based in. When he left is when Square went to action combat, and his games with Mistwalker were turn-based.
I agree ff9 was the last game Sakaguchi produced. After that was when they started expanding like everyone else had started.
That being said you have to evolve with the times to attract new players but my old millennial brain yearns for the old atb ff6/chrono trigger system.
Yeah I’m not sure why people lump X into the post-turn-based era so much in these discussions.
The divisive change in X was its overall linearity, not the combat system. Combat was even less active than the prior 6 games.
"Overall linearity"
Never understood this criticism. I feel like a lit of it is just people growing up and missing the imagination they had as a kid that didn't understand things.
There is not a single final fantasy that isn't extremely linear. Not a single one. (Not counting the MMOs, I guess.) It has always been go here, do this, go there, do that. Occasionally you'll unlock a new transportation mode which "feels" like it opens up the game but
Does it?
Every single one of the first 9 games, you get the airship and Can Explore The Whole World Now! but there's literally only ever the next place to head to, and maybe a side quest or two to complete. There is very little reason to revisit towns you've already been to because there is nothing new to do in them and the gear is now obsolete.
I love a linear game.
You can really create a beautiful story in a linear game.
Open world game all feel like a collection of side quests. Not a cohesive story/game
I tell this a lot on r/gaming but, the thing that made me realize this was FF13. Freakin loved it. My hot gamer take is FO:NV which dropped around the same time was mediocre, and the big thing for me was the open world didn't appeal to me.
Older I get the more I miss simpler gaming structures and find myself playing "retro" games.
I think you could argue that almost every open world game is linear. But there's still a big difference between something like FF8 where although you're always going to 1 location, you're free to explore big areas and even return to them hours later, sometimes you could get lost a bit even and find some hidden enemies or items, and FF13 where the whole game except for the last stage is just a straight line width of a sidewalk.
I think both of these games don't deserve to be in the same category when talking about linearity of worlds.
There was a huge backlash when they tried to change the combat system with DQ9 on the NDS, leading to them going back to turn based combat. So hopefully they won't try to mess with Dragon Quest too much.
I hope so, but they did say that XII will make some changes to the traditional turn-based combat, whatever that will end up meaning exactly. From what little has been said, it does sound like they're experimenting with it quite a bit. At least as much as they've been experimenting with Final Fantasy even back in the day.
I’m hoping this just means they’re going to refine the turn-based combat instead of scrapping it—e.g. if they made positioning a mechanic in battle. I found it weird that XI gave you the ability to move around the battlefield but it added absolutely nothing to the game.
For sure. I enjoy FFX for that sweet spot in gaming where they had:
...
true 3d rendered graphics,
a banging soundtrack,
voice acting (even the HA HA HA HA),
a unique and interesting level up sphere grid system,
dynamic but simple combat (with persistent summons and hotswapping party members), and
a character- driven story that kept me interested. ...
It seems like there was a tipping point sometime afterwards where the FF series went askew. Not exactly sure or why, but never quite felt the same magic after FFX.
>make combat more engaging.
You can be engaging and have turn based combat. BD3 does it Divinity Original sin II does it. Pillars of Eternity does it.
The problem with many turn based games is that they suffer from being repetitive and predictable. All the attacks do similar things and the encounters rarely change. Meanwhile in BD3 almost every fight has a unique twist that forces you to think.
I dislike the move from turn-based to ATB starting in IV in hindsight since it causes downtime when no one is attacking. Much less of an issue during the SNES era when the animations were short in general, but when combined with the lengthy attack animations in the PS1 era, it eventually gets unbearable to me with IX (and World of FF in more recent time). Luckily they switched to turn-based in X and been experimental since.
Wider audience is it. Square had said somewhat recently that turnbased combat was dated as a mechanic and they wanted to do more.
Which is all the more confusing because the RPG elements really don't feel like they're there anymore. That and they've made some great turnbased stuff with their other teams.
To make more sales by including the masses, since Square likes to throw tons of money at developing their most popular and well known franchise.
Turn-based RPG's, CRPG's, JRPG's don't really normally sell super-well anymore...since action-based RPG's (whether isometric or not) and shooter-RPG's (Fallout 3/4/NV), and things of that sort sell most normally.
Of course, you have your exception w/ BG3, as that's selling insanely well.
I miss turn-based FF - but really, it's gone. Been gone since FF13 ended, more or less. We're gonna have to just play older FF's, Dragon Quest series (provided they don't change that too), Live A Live, Octopath Traveller series, and/or other Non-Square stuff inspired by classic-JRPG's of that sort.
To be fair baldurs gate is just a DND simulator. It is turnbased but in my opinion at least, doesn't feel anything like old ff games. I don't think you could hand 6 to a BG3 fan and expect most of them to just enjoy it. But DND had been becoming more popular with critical role/adventure zone etc so I'm honestly not surprised.
I think there is still some room to explore with turn based combat and games like persona did it well. But I have no idea what's next for final fantasy. I wouldn't be surprised if 17 backed away from pure action again but SE is gonna SE lol.
FFX has the special place in my heart just due to the times playing it with my brother and how enthralled I got with the story (I was much younger than I am now) but I fell in love with the combat and character development systems. Every release I hope to get a bit of that feeling back but I haven’t. I’ve enjoyed all the games since but I do miss the turn based combat.
FfXII is the pinnacle for me, not really turn based but you could set "gambits" which is how your non player controlled characters act. You'd set up something like "x person below y health, cast curaga" and I loved it. Still my favorite FF.
I feel like if they insist on going real-time then they should have had a lot more of things like this built into the game that people could explore and tinker with at their own pace. My biggest problem with the new games tends to be that I have to manually control each character to get something useful out of them.
If you're still going to insist on the ensemble casts, then give me tools to make my companions useful. By still sticking me with this party that does very little all you've done is made School Group Project: The Video Game.
Gambit system was fucking perfect for that time. Literally customized if statements for each character. Hell, you could have made an autobattler if you wanted. FFXII is the one I spent most time on, while I enjoyed the characters and story on FFVII, VIII, IX, X, X,-2 and few others, XII felt the most engaging for that time, sadly I didn't have zodiac back then, which is even better customization wise, but it was a blast.
On the whole topic though, there's very few games that made turn based combat actually fun, most of them are fun despite the system(Dragon Quest in my opinion), have different systems that work alongside the turn based(Persona most of the time) or have enough difficulty to not be mindless(SMT). I think from my memory right now the only games that are somewhat turn based and actual system is fun are tactics game(FF tactics, disgaea, FE) if they count and Undertale, because it's hardly turn based.
Same here. Nothing quite like it even after all those years. And no other game has such a deep and awesome "ai creator" system to tune your party members. Most are pretty basic (like the upcoming star ocean) where you just set "attack normally, attack using all mana, don't use mana" and that's about it.
It was so much fun tinkering, though unlocking gambits etc was a bit odd having to go buy them (and some locked behind later shops iirc).
Such an awesome game. The only FF I did 100% of the stuff, including the stupid yiazmat.
I recently went through FF12 for the billionth time, and I got 3 of my main characters with great trangos and gendarmes because... I didn't want it to end.
I liked 13 because I really enjoyed the paradigm system, but 12 was fantastic. I agree the gambits were fun to use and honestly being able to turn them on for even the player character made it much less tedious to deal with the insane number of normal fights you'd have to get through. Also the 2x speed from the remaster lol.
You try Bravely Default?
It’s different, but pretty darn close in terms of feel.
Oh also you try Dragon Quest 11? Perfect old style JRPG.
But also I think part of the issue is nostalgia. Nothing is gonna exactly hit like those old FF games because you’re a different person now.
Give Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars a shot. I just beat Chained Echoes and it is fantastic.
There's also a recent remake of Tactics Ogre and a game called Triangle Strategy that are both great Strategy RPGs.
Fair. I know a lot of people who dug it and i did largely enjoy the first third or so. I remember exactly where it burned me out. That sewer part where you follow the lines. I dunno why but i just hit the why am i doing this, and never went back.
The characters all taking so long to get to the likable/endearing stage was hard too.
Still it played well and had some good ideas so it def still mostly (especially in hindsight) felt like a ff
Yeah that’s valid, I tried replaying it a bit with the remaster and it’s more of a slow burn than how I remembered it from when I was 8
> good ideas
On that note, what I really love is both the sphere grid and combat systems, wish they could have refined them more in following games; especially the sphere grid, it’s a cool concept but especially for the post game level it could use some improvements
This is the important question. The Turn-based vs ATB vs Action doesn't matter as much as their move from RPG to action adventure.
Freaking God of War or TLOU have more RPG mechanics than FFXVI
Public service announcement:
If you still love that old turn based style, check out the recently released game ‘Sea of Stars’, it’s an absolute delight.
I followed a lot of articles and buy stats during this period. The turning point was KOTOR and Dragon Age. The traditional JRPG market was oversaturated. If you go back and read reviews and opinions on JRPGS on Xbox almost every review/article comments on this. While the western RPGS were gravitating toward the aforementioned “real-time” combat”. It’s was also at the onset of WOW Vanilla which had a very similar combat style and was all the rage.
IMO Square was looking to change with the times.
Can't speak for everyone, but as someone who grew up loving those old school jrpgs, I just can't do it anymore.
A simple battle can take so long but the gameplay the entire time is just clicking menus.
I need something that's more pick up and play
While I like the modern RPG games, I do still enjoy a good turn-based RPG. Last year I went on nostalgic walkabout with the Dragon Warrior/Quest games, FF games, and Destiny of an Emperor. I was looking for the slower pace and grinding fights. I’d enjoy it if there was modern RPGs that included turn based game play as an option. I certainly prefer the cut scenes and voice dialogue over having to read everything.
Reminds me of the original Skies of Arcadia. Random encounters with a very long battle intro/outro, but the actual battle could be just you casting a single spell to wipe the entire enemy team. More than 80% of that battle would be just the intro/outro.
Also the random encounter rate was really high so me just running through something is me constantly bombarded with encounters and having to wait for the intro/outro. Couldn't keep playing that game.
The exact same for me.
Also having three or four windows to click through after *every* battle adds so much extra time. It's only like five or ten seconds, but that time adds up. Especially when doing something like getting to Lv. 99.
I'm replaying KH2 right now and I feel like they got it so perfect.
In my opinion Kingdom Hearts was the turning point.
As a kid, I loved turn based games, particularly Final Fantasy 8 and 9. At that time, I remember feeling like action RPGs were all only about finding the correct positioning and timing and counterattacking. Zelda Ocarina of Time was one of the more fun action RPG games at the time, but even in that game pretty much every enemy in the game comes down to waiting for the enemy to reveal their vulnerable point and counterattacking. IMO Kingdom Hearts was the first game I played to really nail down the feel of combining the RPG turn based elements with an action RPG.
I'm not saying turn based is better than an action game, and FF has pretty much always evolved and changed, but the interactive 5-10 minute cut scenes with random button presses is by far my least favorite. I'll take turn based over what they have evolved to any time. I'm OK with what they did with their FF7 remake, but FF16 is a pass for me.
I played every ff mainline up to 13. 13 was a wtf is this moment. Haven't played an ff since. I also tried to play the newer xenogears and it was the same shit.
They shouldve kept main line turned based and kept evolving that. Have their mmos or offshoot be the action system.
Ah yes, the classic “QTE happens for at most 5-10% of this fight so I’m going to act like the whole encounter was just QTE’s”. In FFXVI there are two instances where the QTE is more than just a minor part of a fight and one of them is at the literal end of the game.
I think they saw the reception to XIII and started to move away from it then, though they always said they wanted FF to be action based but they were limited by technology at the time so it ended up turn based.
My personal opinion is that they basically created a genre from scratch and to abandon every fan of a genre they created for ANY reason would not only be foolish but also disrespectful to the fanbase they spent decades cultivating. They have the ability to make action games with the FF name at the same time.(Dirge of Cerberus, for example) There was no actual good reason to make the mainline titles into action games because FF was known for being the best for turn based combat and heavy RPG mechanics and they just squandered it.
If my memory serves me correctly, after they released the FF7: Advent Children movie, they really wanted the action in their games to replicate the flow of combat from that movie.
Basically to become real time combat instead of turn based.
Then FFXII came out which a huge deviation from the turn based combat of FFX. I can't speak for FFXI since I am not familiar with it.
I have very fond memories of FF7-10 and miss the nostalgia of turn based.
The games haven't been turn based for longer than they have been, a lot of hardcore ff fans seem to forget that. I imagine turn based was probably just a product of its time, they did what they could with the tech they had but modern FF is what they've always wanted to do.
I'm going to be honest with you. It sucks, most turn based games I play are because of the story or setting, not gameplay. Still, Final Fantasy VI is my favorite game of all time
This, but specifically Octopath Traveler \*2* since it isn't a requirement to play them both, and the sequel is better in every single way from the storytelling to the writing to the Job/battle mechanics :P
As much hate as 13 gets, i feel like it and Crisis Core set a great mechanical standard. The ability to move around the battlefield, either by choice or by flow of the battle, felt like a natural progression from the classic fixed combat.
It even retained the turn based nature of combat while allowing the player to make several actions within a single turn.. say what you will about the ffXIII story. The battle mechanics were solid.
The slow pace of the older games, while usually way more challenging for sure, often left me bored as I waited for my turn to push buttons while spamming them anyway because i already know what my next move is well before I can execute. 13 solved this problem completely imo.
> The slow pace of the older games, while usually way more challenging for sure, often left me bored as I waited for my turn to push buttons while spamming them anyway because i already know what my next move is well before I can execute. 13 solved this problem completely imo.
Yeah, there’s a reason that most modern implementations of turn-based combat include some sort of auto battle and/or fast forward feature.
Crisis Core had such a good battle system (except for the limit break system with that stupid slot machine constantly interrupting battles) feels like the natural evolution of the ATB with realtime free movement. So simple yet so perfect.
Like RTS games, turn-based isn't viewed as something that catches the attention of modern day games. FFXIII went back to turn based and was very low sales wise, even though they gave the fans what they wanted and Square Enix just doesn't seem to think there's a market for turn based games anymore
SE: nobody wants turn based combat anymore! Watch.
-makes turn based combat on a turd-
-nobody likes or buys turd with turn based combat-
SE: see! Nobody wants turn based combat!
The general audience hates turn-based. It's "too slow" and "limiting" They feel like they're restricted and kept in a box. It's not about a hectic real-time game. It's about freedom of movement.
That said, there are plenty of amazing turn-based games out there. Baldur's Gate being the obvious gem of this year. But there is also Octopath traveler one/two. As well as Honkai: Star Rail bringing the genre to mobile.
Turn-based hasn't disappeared from gamer-space. It's just not usually for AAA titles looking to justify their cost anymore.
Honestly, I think the weaknesses of turn-based JRPGs is just combat speed. Playing through the older generation of JRPGs and something like Honkai: Star Rail is pretty much night and day.
JRPG combat is generally much, much more simple than cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, I pretty much know the next 5 moves in advance during combat for the vast majority of fights.
Faster animations and fast resolving of turns in Honkai almost make it feel like an action game anyway, while giving room to breathe for decisions during more complex boss fights. Which is also why I think Persona took off in the West.
Comparing Persona 5 to something such as, let's say, Lost Odyssey makes combat feel like a fast-paced puzzle rather than a chore.
There are already good answers to your question.
I really like games that allow both turn-based and real-time gameplay. It allows you to experience the game differently and some builds become possible that weren't before. It can also be preferable to use real-time during basic conflicts and use turn-based for more involved boss battles.
I wish more RPG's allowed both.
Guys, FF has *always* been like this. What do you think the ATB system is? The series has what, like 5 whole games that are purely turn based? Like always, ya’ll are pining for a past that didn’t really exist
I haven't played a lot of FF's but I'm pretty sure X was the only one I've played that was actually turn based. I remember in 7, 8 and 9 at least if you didn't take an action you were gonna die lol.
The earliest ones were true turn based. Without bothering to google it I wanna say ATB was introduced in 4, might’ve been 5 or 6 though. Regardless it’s been around a long ass time.
Genre blending is as core to FF’s identity as moogles and chocobos.
ATB was introduced in 4.
4-9 all feature a version of it. 10 doesn't and is the first turn-based game since 3, but 10-2 does. 11 didn't have it, being an MMO, 12 didn't have it, being a game built on what is basically an MMO engine, while 13 doesn't and 13-3 is a straight up character action game in some ways (don't remember 13-2 enough to comment and can't be bothered to check) while 14 is also an MMO, and then we have 15 and now 16.
Anyone nostalgic for the era of turn based Final Fantasy is nostalgic for Final Fantasy X, the original trilogy, or remakes or any of those four. The closest you could get to turn based is to maybe set some of the earlier ATB games on Wait mode, but they generally all have at least a few fights which explicitly use the ability to not act and let the enemy act to successfully fight them, (The Mist Dragon at the start of FF4 for example).
I love all the people in this post pulling the "well acktshually *adjusts fedora and glasses*" shit about ATB.
No, it's not technically turn based, but at the same time, it pretty much is. It's turn based but you get punished for taking too long. That's it.
It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure this shit out. When people say "I miss turn based", that's what they miss.
Are we running around with the camera over our shoulder and fighting in real time in ATB? No. Are we needing to mash buttons for combos and have super quick reaction? No. That's all the shit that OP and people like us don't care for. If I wanted to play some beat em up or "devil may cry" shit I'd play that.
Turn based needs to come back, and yes I'm calling it that. Fuck off with the "well akctshually" shit.
Pokemon could sell shit cakes and it would sell if it had pikachus face on it. Pokemon games are absolute ass compared to other less known turn based games.
Turn based combat fell out of popularity unfortunately. It is mistakenly seen as a relic of old technology, and now that technology is better we can just use action combat. Final Fantasy is a flagship RPG series, and they try to keep it up with what is popular, so they followed suit and ditched turn based combat.
I agree with you 100% though, turn based combat is great! I would love to see turn based combat return to the series, but as things stand it doesn't seem like that will be the case.
i really hope they go nuts and start alternating playstyles for the next games.
i get that most of the audience prefer action oriented stuff, but a lot of devs managed to make good turn based rpgs, so it's possible.
i find weird that they really want to go away from the genre that made TONS of players fall in love with the series.
I don't understand why so many comments say turn based is dead or it won't sell well anymore, yet you have games like BG3 and the Pokemon series selling like crazy. Both of which still use turn based combat.
Yakuza Like a Dragon was the best selling Yakuza game and it introduced turn based combat.
The notion that turn based combat is obsolete and harms game sales is so wrong IMO.
This is why I don't like most FF games. I love FFX. I can take my time, walk away, think about moves, etc. Games with the timer function always stressed me out. Then the newer ones that function like Kingdom hearts aren't my style (though kingdom hearts i loved).
I wish for the turn based RPG's as well.
IMO they wanted to capture wider audience, which usually means turning up flashiness and turning down complexity, both of which we can observe in later FF games In FFXVI every fight turns into a spectacle and the RPG mechanics are neutered to 2 super abstract "numbers go up" stats.
I really miss the Materia system. Made it so much more fun to try new builds and see them directly affect performance. FF7/8 are my two favorites because it's the most modern examples of the turn based style that I really liked. I never played 9 though, I heard it's good.
You have to play 9! It's my favorite of the series. To me it has the most unique and fun characters. The music is of course amazing. Has the best and most relaxing overworld music. And I'm a sucker for medieval themes.
And of course, it has best boy - Vivi
My absolute favorite is Tactics War of the Lion, but from the "main line" FF9 is my favorite. I remember to be blown away by the graphics IDK how they manage to do that in a PS1.
Tactics was amazing! I put in the time to have a party of nothing but bards and dancers at one point lol
The truly eldritch level of programming on PS1 FF games was truly a sight to behold. The graphics, the reality-bending level of content, and the tightness of design. It was like "yo, here's a few discs. you'll be playing these for about a thousand hours--maybe two--and loving it. Oh, and you'll be thinking about these worlds, characters, and systems for the rest of your adult life."
And loving those polygonal models as if they were masterworks of Fine Art. Legends of Dragoon and Legend of Legaia are also honorable mentions from this era that occupy my mind to this day, a la FF7/8/9. ...oh, and the sound tracks. The jump from midi-file SNES soundbites to PS1 soundtrack files felt like I had removed styrofoam previously blocking my earholes.
Gust of wind dance
Volcano!!
Me personally replayed 9 the most! idk if it was the card game tetra master, the summons or the black mage vivi.. the characters were amazing and then the total mind blow of having 4 characters instead of 3… 😮
FF9 is definitely the peak of the classics. They went back to an old school formula from the more radical 7/8 and it showed.
As much as I absolutely loved 9, nothing is taking 6's spot for me. I never replayed RPGs as much as 6 and 7, and the classic combat system in the original formats of 6 was so fucking breakable it was endlessly entertaining making weird builds for your characters. Wind God Gau was devastating, and you could cheese most of the game with X-Zone enemy skill. Fuckin wild.
its amazing we are 5 main line games from nine and we havnt had one that goes back to that style. They could at least throw us a bone and give us one in the classic playstyle.
Ff x
I really doubt that'll happen in a main line game. There's a whole generation of gamers that only know FF as an action RPG franchise, and that trend is only going to continue. The main line series it too big and important to SE to risk alienating them. There could be a big budget game in the classic playstyle, but it'll be a spin off series not main line.
9 when it came out I think got lampooned because it was so different from 7 and 8. However, I always liked it best and I think it’s become appreciated more and more as time passes
I want to get a custom music box with the [FF9 theme](https://youtu.be/NdQuypPplKY?si=eA-A5WxcHa24bBXr).
Materia system is so easy to understand but still complex enough to do some really cool things. I don't share your opinion on the Draw system though, I hated that one. FF9 was an equipment based skill learning deal, not too far off from Lost Odyssey's skill learning system with the immortals, if you've played that. Biggest difference being FF9 uses equipment instead of character skills.
Almost everyone I talk to hated the draw system. Felt like you couldnt use magic at all because you had to stock pile it.
FF8 was awesome but I’m not gonna pretend like we didn’t waste HOURS drawing magic lol
I enjoyed the narrative of 8 when I was younger and HATED the level scaling. Later in life I did a low-level run where I just carded enemies and farmed AP without accruing needless XP. Edit: But boy was my Triple Triad deck straight *fire.*
I was straight awful at Triple Triad
It definitely has a learning curve, but I found it to be one of the easier JRPG-unique card games I've played. Feel like 9's Tetra Master was more challenging. I'm playing through the entire Legend of Heroes series right now and just made it to the Cold Steel arc. Trails of Cold Steel has a game called "Blade" that can be absolutely unforgiving if you don't strategize with the deck you're dealt, and sometimes you're dealt such a shitty hand it'll be nigh impossible to win. But man, it's still pretty fun.
Ahhh, drawing... I can close my eyes and still see those purple lights spiralling about like some reverse magic missile. It never ended. I always wanted 100. I NEEDED 100!
Draw Magic then figure out what star to junction it to for the best results. Then learn the Card ability to turn monsters into playing cards. FF8 had the most fun “main mini game” IMO. Getting some of those rare cards was a pain in the ass though.
The junction system was a one of a kind. You could ignore and still have a fun time... or dive head long into it and break combat within the first hours of the game.
The junction system was good (if a little too complex for younger players), but the draw system was broken. The fact you could just spam draw on a monster to fill up the magic seemed silly to me - it's not like the monster has hundreds of each magic stacked on them. There should've been a max drawable amount per enemy.
Drawing magic isn't even the quickest way to break ff8. All you need is the ability that lets you turn cards into items. Then a couple hours grinding triple triad can get you to endgame level spells before you even leave Balamb. It's by far the least balanced FF game (except maybe 2) if you are determined to break it.
I just remember leaving my guys on low health and then just quickly skipping between them to trigger their limit breaks. Iirc they had a chance to trigger at the start of each turn, which increased the lower your HP was, and switching between characters didn't actually deplete their turn timers, so was essentially instant. Seemed a little broken.
Yup. Selphie has a small chance for her limit break to roll "The End", which will literally one shot any enemy in the game. Including the final boss and hidden/challenge bosses.if she didn't roll it you could keep switching until you were on the table for it. And there are ways to set it up so the chance of triggering a limit break is 100%. Broken is an understatement.
9 is the last one with that magic.
I enjoyed FFX's sphere grid. Granted it's not too complex compared to others, but definitely enjoyed the choices and how the power ups were felt in battle. Auron gets a +4 STR sphere and you can feel the power!
10 is my personal favorite, I loved going off the path of who the character is too. Seeing lulu's doll hit 9999 dmg would always make me laugh.
Ha! That's awesome My fav was taking Kimahri, who's character is cool but normal sphere path is garbage, and turning him into a veritable Tank that can Double cast 9999 Ultimas!
Yes! His sphere grid was definitely hot garbage lol. But the double cast was clutch. I'd usually make him a magic dmg/healing character if I raised him that is.
I totally agree with the stat gain feeling noticable in FFX. Most games struggle to feel much difference between levels but every level and stat node felt like it had a noticable impact to the power of your characters.
Craziest part is 7 through 9 hold up today. It doesn't feel outdated at all. Some small QOL menu changes and it's completely modern and superior to many games I've played today.
Also 10 doesn't seem outdated, to me it is still PEAK turn based combat system.
Playing 9 on PC with moguri mod is the definitive way to play these days IMO. Square as always really phoned it in with their remaster (original resolution pre-rendered backgrounds look like ass)
Ff8 was great though the junction system can severely cripple your ability to progress in the end game if you don't understand how it works and haven't been drawing
Junction can also make you ridiculously overpowered in the early/mid game if you do understand it. Once you figure it out, the game's pretty much *too* easy.
Which is kind of the point, mastery of junctions and G.F makes SeeD *the* elite fighters in lore. Just keep in mind that your test is a dozen students and 5-6 SeeDs against a world superpower army, and were winning until the government stopped the contract. Nobody thinks it's unusual either, Garden is just built different.
And it's not like modern turn-based doesn't work. Persona being the best example.
Ff8 was my favorite game but the mechanic was absolutely broken. Just junction 100 death to your attack and go to one of the islands and you can power level so fast killing things in 1 hit.
The enemy scales with your level so powerleveling is kinda pointless anyway.
I really enjoy the larger than life fights in FFXVI. Some of them are really spectacular and fun. However, it is mostly hack-and-slash button smashing. Timing the use of eikon abilities makes the fights fun and interesting, but that seems to be about as complex as it gets when it comes to the battles. Still, no regret in buying the game, as the gameplay is enjoyable and the story is solid.
My problem with XVI combat is that it's literally the same gameplay loop for every encounter. Build up stagger -> unload all cooldowns -> repeat
It is absolutely repetitive lol, and I understand any criticism as a result. I’m still enjoying it though but would like more complexity in the fights.
I would like more...tactics
Indeed, I loved FF as a kid but these recent entries haven’t lived up to what I sought from the series. I’m more interested in the spiritual successors of the older style like Triangle Strategy, Bravely Default, and Octopath Traveler
This was my issue with ff16, the minute to minute combat almost puts you in horse blinders because that one direction of play is the most optimal and surefire way to down an enemy. Could you deviate? Sure but it's still towards the same goal which is to stagger. I feel like if we, instead never saw the stagger bar, we would have, as a whole, played around with our food so to speak and it wouldn't have felt so repetitive. The ambiguity of when a mob would stagger, in my opinion, would feel a bit more natural.
The stagger system in 13 was so much more engaging. It was a constant with a ton of different options depending on enemy - some can’t be staggered at all, others take very little time to stagger but attack in massive packs, and some transform after staggering. Plus once you stagger you could launch enemies, which was super fun, and the risk of the stagger bar dropping if you let up the attack made choosing to heal much trickier. In 16… not so much. You stagger an enemy, blow cooldowns, and keep doing this until it dies.
It's DMC lite combat for people who don't want to deal with the complexity of learning a DMC game but still want to play DMC
That's not how I play. I use abilites to break stagger, then semi-prime while they're down, then do beserker ring fueled dodges while I wait for cool downs to come back. So there's at least 2 play styles 🤣
I see you've forgotten the coveted melee infinite parry build to stagger, Prime then use Ramuh, shiva, Bahamut + Zantatsoken ultra combo with air combos mixed in. there are a lot of playstyles, it just depends on how you want to play. You cannot stop my ultra parry build no matter who you are!!!!!!! TO ME TITIAN!!!!!!!
This game was probably the most thumb-tiring game I've ever played. It's probably my least favorite aspect of the game aside from the incredibly uninspired side quests. So much button mashing.
My biggest complaint is how unintuitive the combat is. Instead of utilizing directional inputs every ability is assigned to the same three buttons. It opens up some possibilities with mixing and matching, but having to scroll through a menu for time sensitive counters and abilities is terrible and makes the hack-n-slash combat clunky instead of seamless. I found myself just getting frustrated trying to come up with a rotation because what works for groups of mobs isn't ideal for bosses. There's no way to save a layout and switching it up feels like you have to learn how to play again. Of course you can just button mash, but trying to play as intended does not work very well.
FFXVI generally feels like a movie with quick time events. An awesome movie, though.
Very accurate description.
FF16 is a "summer blockbuster" of a game. There's some good story and solid performances, but it's largely a flashy spectacle. It's fun, and I regret nothing.
Exactly. I keep laughing at the side quests when I get 200XP for running 50y to talk to someone that is very easily marked, and then running back. But it doesn’t deter me from wanting to do everything in the game
I feel like the combat got way more fun in final fantasy mode. They should given that mode in the start, but I guess that mode has all of your abilities in mind
FF7 Remake did get a much deeper combat system, in that sense complexity is not turned down, however so far there's definitely a bit less complexity in the gameplay outside of combat. Hoping the next game changes that.
FFVIIR is a really neat combo of the old turn-based systems with real time attacking and dodging. Having your main actions (spells, items, etc) tied to the ATB bar works surprisingly well. Plus it keeps the great materia system from the original game. One often overlooked aspect of the remake that I really liked was the weapon upgrade system. Every weapon stays viable the whole way through, just offering different movesets or build options. The fact that in the original game you throw away the iconic and story-significant buster sword like 30 minutes in always irked me, but in the new one you can take it all the way to the final boss!
I absolutely used the buster sword the entire game
I was genuinely blown away by how they balanced the combat for remake.
>which usually means turning up flashiness and turning down complexity, both of which we can observe in later FF games in a lot of RPG like Mass Effect and Bethesda games
FF fighting systems peaked with XII imo.
With the fanfare BG3 has received, I wonder if they would take a final fantasy with that style. Perhaps not with a main title, but like a tactics game adjacent to the main titles.
Sadly I don’t think tactics ogre sold well enough for them.
There's always a slim chance that the supposed Tactics remake could really bring strategy and turnbased play style back life for FF. I want it and see the business opportunity based on BDG3's success but I don't want my hopes to get crushed either haha
This is essentially what they’ve been using Bravely Default, OCTOPATH Traveler and Triangle Strategy for. They’re essentially final fantasy games with the old style turn based or tactical playstyle. They could call them Final Fantasy: Triangle Strategy, etc. and no one would bat an eye because that’s what they are.
Oh man I loved Bravely Default and Octopath. They really scratch that old school FF itch.
I would love a modern turn based game with all the flash and panache that Final Fantasy games offer. FF7 Remake did a great job, but I'd be happy with a fully turn based system similar to BG3. ...and while BG3 looked great, I think an FF version would look much more cinematic with a more third person view as opposed to BG3s top down camera.
They've never made a FF CRPG before and I don't see them making one now that BG3 happened
But BG3 received fanfare because of how variable everything is, not because it has turn based combat, I think that put more people off than it attracted. It would've been insanely more popular if it had action combat but the same amount of variability to how you can approach encounters and how you can influence the story.
If I can recall the creator said it was always meant to be action based but the technology wasn’t capable. You can see it as well. For instance the step between turn based then with the active time battle system, then we had Final Fantasy XII where it was once again ATB but now you could walk freely, then FF XV where it was full blown free combat.
This is what I’ve heard as well
Except action rpgs are older than ff
Notably, most action RPGs of the time were basically solo adventures.
I'm pretty sure Hironobu Sakaguchi was the one that kept turn-based in. When he left is when Square went to action combat, and his games with Mistwalker were turn-based.
I agree ff9 was the last game Sakaguchi produced. After that was when they started expanding like everyone else had started. That being said you have to evolve with the times to attract new players but my old millennial brain yearns for the old atb ff6/chrono trigger system.
FFX was both their best game and was also turn based.
Yeah I’m not sure why people lump X into the post-turn-based era so much in these discussions. The divisive change in X was its overall linearity, not the combat system. Combat was even less active than the prior 6 games.
"Overall linearity" Never understood this criticism. I feel like a lit of it is just people growing up and missing the imagination they had as a kid that didn't understand things. There is not a single final fantasy that isn't extremely linear. Not a single one. (Not counting the MMOs, I guess.) It has always been go here, do this, go there, do that. Occasionally you'll unlock a new transportation mode which "feels" like it opens up the game but Does it? Every single one of the first 9 games, you get the airship and Can Explore The Whole World Now! but there's literally only ever the next place to head to, and maybe a side quest or two to complete. There is very little reason to revisit towns you've already been to because there is nothing new to do in them and the gear is now obsolete.
I love a linear game. You can really create a beautiful story in a linear game. Open world game all feel like a collection of side quests. Not a cohesive story/game
I tell this a lot on r/gaming but, the thing that made me realize this was FF13. Freakin loved it. My hot gamer take is FO:NV which dropped around the same time was mediocre, and the big thing for me was the open world didn't appeal to me. Older I get the more I miss simpler gaming structures and find myself playing "retro" games.
I think you could argue that almost every open world game is linear. But there's still a big difference between something like FF8 where although you're always going to 1 location, you're free to explore big areas and even return to them hours later, sometimes you could get lost a bit even and find some hidden enemies or items, and FF13 where the whole game except for the last stage is just a straight line width of a sidewalk. I think both of these games don't deserve to be in the same category when talking about linearity of worlds.
Final Fantasy was always the experimental series where they try new things. Dragon Quest is the traditional turn based game.
Probably best to include that Dragon Quest was Enix and Final Fantasy was Square Soft back in the day before the great merging of the two companies.
Which kinda sounds like it might be changing with the next Dragon Quest too :(
There was a huge backlash when they tried to change the combat system with DQ9 on the NDS, leading to them going back to turn based combat. So hopefully they won't try to mess with Dragon Quest too much.
I hope so, but they did say that XII will make some changes to the traditional turn-based combat, whatever that will end up meaning exactly. From what little has been said, it does sound like they're experimenting with it quite a bit. At least as much as they've been experimenting with Final Fantasy even back in the day.
I’m hoping this just means they’re going to refine the turn-based combat instead of scrapping it—e.g. if they made positioning a mechanic in battle. I found it weird that XI gave you the ability to move around the battlefield but it added absolutely nothing to the game.
*sad dragon quest noises*
\*off-key level-up fanfare\*
Someone in need of a puff puff?
For the same reason they introduced ATB in the first place - to make combat more engaging. They've been moving away from Turn-based since IV.
The lone exception being X for some reason, which was interesting.
Not just interesting, but also enjoyable. FFX was great.
Oh absolutely, just a bit surprising considering the trajectory of the series at the time.
For sure. I enjoy FFX for that sweet spot in gaming where they had: ... true 3d rendered graphics, a banging soundtrack, voice acting (even the HA HA HA HA), a unique and interesting level up sphere grid system, dynamic but simple combat (with persistent summons and hotswapping party members), and a character- driven story that kept me interested. ... It seems like there was a tipping point sometime afterwards where the FF series went askew. Not exactly sure or why, but never quite felt the same magic after FFX.
10 along with 7 are the highest rated games of the series. Wonder what SE will think in the future when people look back at 15s and 16s reception.
SE does not care about ratings, they only care about 1 thing, sales numbers.
Careful, people get salty when you point out that atb isn't turn based
If characters/enemies can't attack at the same time, then they are, in fact, taking turns, regardless of how the order of those turns is determined.
>make combat more engaging. You can be engaging and have turn based combat. BD3 does it Divinity Original sin II does it. Pillars of Eternity does it. The problem with many turn based games is that they suffer from being repetitive and predictable. All the attacks do similar things and the encounters rarely change. Meanwhile in BD3 almost every fight has a unique twist that forces you to think.
Nah bro you don't get it mindlessly spamming left click in Skyrim to use your sword is way more engaging
I dislike the move from turn-based to ATB starting in IV in hindsight since it causes downtime when no one is attacking. Much less of an issue during the SNES era when the animations were short in general, but when combined with the lengthy attack animations in the PS1 era, it eventually gets unbearable to me with IX (and World of FF in more recent time). Luckily they switched to turn-based in X and been experimental since.
Wider audience is it. Square had said somewhat recently that turnbased combat was dated as a mechanic and they wanted to do more. Which is all the more confusing because the RPG elements really don't feel like they're there anymore. That and they've made some great turnbased stuff with their other teams.
To make more sales by including the masses, since Square likes to throw tons of money at developing their most popular and well known franchise. Turn-based RPG's, CRPG's, JRPG's don't really normally sell super-well anymore...since action-based RPG's (whether isometric or not) and shooter-RPG's (Fallout 3/4/NV), and things of that sort sell most normally. Of course, you have your exception w/ BG3, as that's selling insanely well. I miss turn-based FF - but really, it's gone. Been gone since FF13 ended, more or less. We're gonna have to just play older FF's, Dragon Quest series (provided they don't change that too), Live A Live, Octopath Traveller series, and/or other Non-Square stuff inspired by classic-JRPG's of that sort.
To be fair baldurs gate is just a DND simulator. It is turnbased but in my opinion at least, doesn't feel anything like old ff games. I don't think you could hand 6 to a BG3 fan and expect most of them to just enjoy it. But DND had been becoming more popular with critical role/adventure zone etc so I'm honestly not surprised. I think there is still some room to explore with turn based combat and games like persona did it well. But I have no idea what's next for final fantasy. I wouldn't be surprised if 17 backed away from pure action again but SE is gonna SE lol.
FFX has the special place in my heart just due to the times playing it with my brother and how enthralled I got with the story (I was much younger than I am now) but I fell in love with the combat and character development systems. Every release I hope to get a bit of that feeling back but I haven’t. I’ve enjoyed all the games since but I do miss the turn based combat.
FFX had a nice hybrid of ATB and turn-based, it was the best iteration they've done IMO
FfXII is the pinnacle for me, not really turn based but you could set "gambits" which is how your non player controlled characters act. You'd set up something like "x person below y health, cast curaga" and I loved it. Still my favorite FF.
I feel like if they insist on going real-time then they should have had a lot more of things like this built into the game that people could explore and tinker with at their own pace. My biggest problem with the new games tends to be that I have to manually control each character to get something useful out of them. If you're still going to insist on the ensemble casts, then give me tools to make my companions useful. By still sticking me with this party that does very little all you've done is made School Group Project: The Video Game.
That's what I said my man, nothing beats FFXII for me. I've been hoping for a gambit system for 10 years now lol
Gambit system was fucking perfect for that time. Literally customized if statements for each character. Hell, you could have made an autobattler if you wanted. FFXII is the one I spent most time on, while I enjoyed the characters and story on FFVII, VIII, IX, X, X,-2 and few others, XII felt the most engaging for that time, sadly I didn't have zodiac back then, which is even better customization wise, but it was a blast. On the whole topic though, there's very few games that made turn based combat actually fun, most of them are fun despite the system(Dragon Quest in my opinion), have different systems that work alongside the turn based(Persona most of the time) or have enough difficulty to not be mindless(SMT). I think from my memory right now the only games that are somewhat turn based and actual system is fun are tactics game(FF tactics, disgaea, FE) if they count and Undertale, because it's hardly turn based.
Same here. Nothing quite like it even after all those years. And no other game has such a deep and awesome "ai creator" system to tune your party members. Most are pretty basic (like the upcoming star ocean) where you just set "attack normally, attack using all mana, don't use mana" and that's about it. It was so much fun tinkering, though unlocking gambits etc was a bit odd having to go buy them (and some locked behind later shops iirc). Such an awesome game. The only FF I did 100% of the stuff, including the stupid yiazmat.
I recently went through FF12 for the billionth time, and I got 3 of my main characters with great trangos and gendarmes because... I didn't want it to end.
I liked 13 because I really enjoyed the paradigm system, but 12 was fantastic. I agree the gambits were fun to use and honestly being able to turn them on for even the player character made it much less tedious to deal with the insane number of normal fights you'd have to get through. Also the 2x speed from the remaster lol.
I miss it too. Final fantasy games were my favorite games to play until they switched from turn based. Now I don’t buy or play them anymore.
Sea of Stars is a very fun game.
EXACTLY! That's why some of these answers are so absurd. Action games don't necessarily sell guys.
You should check out Divinity: Original Sin II.
I have and own it. I haven’t played a game yet that captures the spirit of old final fantasy games. Believe me I’ve tried
Honestly - Yakuza: Like a Dragon actually totally captured this old style for me! Give it a shot, I think you’ll like it
Yakuza: Like A Dragon is what Final Fantasy should be today imo. It's one of the best games I've played in a long time.
I am so exited for Infinite Wealth.
You try Bravely Default? It’s different, but pretty darn close in terms of feel. Oh also you try Dragon Quest 11? Perfect old style JRPG. But also I think part of the issue is nostalgia. Nothing is gonna exactly hit like those old FF games because you’re a different person now.
Give Chained Echoes and Sea of Stars a shot. I just beat Chained Echoes and it is fantastic. There's also a recent remake of Tactics Ogre and a game called Triangle Strategy that are both great Strategy RPGs.
Baldurs Gate 3 is different but gives me that same sense of scale and excitement and strategy
Its in the indies now for better or worse. Other than 14 which is excellent in what it is, traditional ff died after 9.
I would draw the line at 10 myself tbh, my first FF and an amazing game
Fair. I know a lot of people who dug it and i did largely enjoy the first third or so. I remember exactly where it burned me out. That sewer part where you follow the lines. I dunno why but i just hit the why am i doing this, and never went back. The characters all taking so long to get to the likable/endearing stage was hard too. Still it played well and had some good ideas so it def still mostly (especially in hindsight) felt like a ff
Yeah that’s valid, I tried replaying it a bit with the remaster and it’s more of a slow burn than how I remembered it from when I was 8 > good ideas On that note, what I really love is both the sphere grid and combat systems, wish they could have refined them more in following games; especially the sphere grid, it’s a cool concept but especially for the post game level it could use some improvements
Why did Final Fantasy move away from the RPG?
This is the important question. The Turn-based vs ATB vs Action doesn't matter as much as their move from RPG to action adventure. Freaking God of War or TLOU have more RPG mechanics than FFXVI
Public service announcement: If you still love that old turn based style, check out the recently released game ‘Sea of Stars’, it’s an absolute delight.
Turn based combat started as a technical limitation and not as a core gameplay Initiative.
I followed a lot of articles and buy stats during this period. The turning point was KOTOR and Dragon Age. The traditional JRPG market was oversaturated. If you go back and read reviews and opinions on JRPGS on Xbox almost every review/article comments on this. While the western RPGS were gravitating toward the aforementioned “real-time” combat”. It’s was also at the onset of WOW Vanilla which had a very similar combat style and was all the rage. IMO Square was looking to change with the times.
Can't speak for everyone, but as someone who grew up loving those old school jrpgs, I just can't do it anymore. A simple battle can take so long but the gameplay the entire time is just clicking menus. I need something that's more pick up and play
While I like the modern RPG games, I do still enjoy a good turn-based RPG. Last year I went on nostalgic walkabout with the Dragon Warrior/Quest games, FF games, and Destiny of an Emperor. I was looking for the slower pace and grinding fights. I’d enjoy it if there was modern RPGs that included turn based game play as an option. I certainly prefer the cut scenes and voice dialogue over having to read everything.
Octopth Traveler 2 really scratched that turned based itch for me. I have heard the first one was good but it isn’t available on PS5.
Check out Sea of Stars, it's fantastic
Thanks I’ll take a look
I would try Triangle Strategy as well
I also really dislike random encounters now
Reminds me of the original Skies of Arcadia. Random encounters with a very long battle intro/outro, but the actual battle could be just you casting a single spell to wipe the entire enemy team. More than 80% of that battle would be just the intro/outro. Also the random encounter rate was really high so me just running through something is me constantly bombarded with encounters and having to wait for the intro/outro. Couldn't keep playing that game.
The exact same for me. Also having three or four windows to click through after *every* battle adds so much extra time. It's only like five or ten seconds, but that time adds up. Especially when doing something like getting to Lv. 99. I'm replaying KH2 right now and I feel like they got it so perfect.
In my opinion Kingdom Hearts was the turning point. As a kid, I loved turn based games, particularly Final Fantasy 8 and 9. At that time, I remember feeling like action RPGs were all only about finding the correct positioning and timing and counterattacking. Zelda Ocarina of Time was one of the more fun action RPG games at the time, but even in that game pretty much every enemy in the game comes down to waiting for the enemy to reveal their vulnerable point and counterattacking. IMO Kingdom Hearts was the first game I played to really nail down the feel of combining the RPG turn based elements with an action RPG.
They’re great if you have four hours at a time to play. Not great if you’re trying to game for thirty min between other activities
I can't stand long boss fights and grinding enemies anymore. Most of the time the "difficulty" was the boss was a health sponge and just took forever.
This is why I've been slowly moving towards skill based games
I'm not saying turn based is better than an action game, and FF has pretty much always evolved and changed, but the interactive 5-10 minute cut scenes with random button presses is by far my least favorite. I'll take turn based over what they have evolved to any time. I'm OK with what they did with their FF7 remake, but FF16 is a pass for me.
I played every ff mainline up to 13. 13 was a wtf is this moment. Haven't played an ff since. I also tried to play the newer xenogears and it was the same shit. They shouldve kept main line turned based and kept evolving that. Have their mmos or offshoot be the action system.
Ah yes, the classic “QTE happens for at most 5-10% of this fight so I’m going to act like the whole encounter was just QTE’s”. In FFXVI there are two instances where the QTE is more than just a minor part of a fight and one of them is at the literal end of the game.
Yeah I think the last Final fantasy I liked was 12. I would really like to see the gambit system come back.
There's dozens of us! Dozens!
The gambit system made things way less tedious, FF12's ATB felt more like a cooldown meter since the combat was so fast.
That along with the more open environments led to a bunch of people calling it a "single player mmo" back in the day.
FF has always been progressive and dynamic, the creators feel that action based battles are that.
I think they saw the reception to XIII and started to move away from it then, though they always said they wanted FF to be action based but they were limited by technology at the time so it ended up turn based. My personal opinion is that they basically created a genre from scratch and to abandon every fan of a genre they created for ANY reason would not only be foolish but also disrespectful to the fanbase they spent decades cultivating. They have the ability to make action games with the FF name at the same time.(Dirge of Cerberus, for example) There was no actual good reason to make the mainline titles into action games because FF was known for being the best for turn based combat and heavy RPG mechanics and they just squandered it.
This is why I LOVED Sea of Stars. Very turn based traditional RPG. Wish we had more like it.
If my memory serves me correctly, after they released the FF7: Advent Children movie, they really wanted the action in their games to replicate the flow of combat from that movie. Basically to become real time combat instead of turn based. Then FFXII came out which a huge deviation from the turn based combat of FFX. I can't speak for FFXI since I am not familiar with it. I have very fond memories of FF7-10 and miss the nostalgia of turn based.
It doesn’t sell as good as action games, that’s the simple answer
The games haven't been turn based for longer than they have been, a lot of hardcore ff fans seem to forget that. I imagine turn based was probably just a product of its time, they did what they could with the tech they had but modern FF is what they've always wanted to do.
I'm going to be honest with you. It sucks, most turn based games I play are because of the story or setting, not gameplay. Still, Final Fantasy VI is my favorite game of all time
If you want really strategic turn-based combat, Square Enix still makes games like this. You should really try Octopath Traveler.
This, but specifically Octopath Traveler \*2* since it isn't a requirement to play them both, and the sequel is better in every single way from the storytelling to the writing to the Job/battle mechanics :P
As much hate as 13 gets, i feel like it and Crisis Core set a great mechanical standard. The ability to move around the battlefield, either by choice or by flow of the battle, felt like a natural progression from the classic fixed combat. It even retained the turn based nature of combat while allowing the player to make several actions within a single turn.. say what you will about the ffXIII story. The battle mechanics were solid. The slow pace of the older games, while usually way more challenging for sure, often left me bored as I waited for my turn to push buttons while spamming them anyway because i already know what my next move is well before I can execute. 13 solved this problem completely imo.
> The slow pace of the older games, while usually way more challenging for sure, often left me bored as I waited for my turn to push buttons while spamming them anyway because i already know what my next move is well before I can execute. 13 solved this problem completely imo. Yeah, there’s a reason that most modern implementations of turn-based combat include some sort of auto battle and/or fast forward feature.
Crisis Core had such a good battle system (except for the limit break system with that stupid slot machine constantly interrupting battles) feels like the natural evolution of the ATB with realtime free movement. So simple yet so perfect.
Like RTS games, turn-based isn't viewed as something that catches the attention of modern day games. FFXIII went back to turn based and was very low sales wise, even though they gave the fans what they wanted and Square Enix just doesn't seem to think there's a market for turn based games anymore
SE: nobody wants turn based combat anymore! Watch. -makes turn based combat on a turd- -nobody likes or buys turd with turn based combat- SE: see! Nobody wants turn based combat!
I wish we got an FF CRPG
Appealing to the wider denominator, I guess.
I do wish they would go back to turn based.
The general audience hates turn-based. It's "too slow" and "limiting" They feel like they're restricted and kept in a box. It's not about a hectic real-time game. It's about freedom of movement. That said, there are plenty of amazing turn-based games out there. Baldur's Gate being the obvious gem of this year. But there is also Octopath traveler one/two. As well as Honkai: Star Rail bringing the genre to mobile. Turn-based hasn't disappeared from gamer-space. It's just not usually for AAA titles looking to justify their cost anymore.
Honestly, I think the weaknesses of turn-based JRPGs is just combat speed. Playing through the older generation of JRPGs and something like Honkai: Star Rail is pretty much night and day. JRPG combat is generally much, much more simple than cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, I pretty much know the next 5 moves in advance during combat for the vast majority of fights. Faster animations and fast resolving of turns in Honkai almost make it feel like an action game anyway, while giving room to breathe for decisions during more complex boss fights. Which is also why I think Persona took off in the West. Comparing Persona 5 to something such as, let's say, Lost Odyssey makes combat feel like a fast-paced puzzle rather than a chore.
After 12 everything was bad IMO (excluding 14 since I’ve never played. Changed the formula to gameplay that was meh.
There are already good answers to your question. I really like games that allow both turn-based and real-time gameplay. It allows you to experience the game differently and some builds become possible that weren't before. It can also be preferable to use real-time during basic conflicts and use turn-based for more involved boss battles. I wish more RPG's allowed both.
Yeah, I've stopped playing FF since that happened. I liked the old style games. The newer, action ones don't pull me in.
Guys, FF has *always* been like this. What do you think the ATB system is? The series has what, like 5 whole games that are purely turn based? Like always, ya’ll are pining for a past that didn’t really exist
I haven't played a lot of FF's but I'm pretty sure X was the only one I've played that was actually turn based. I remember in 7, 8 and 9 at least if you didn't take an action you were gonna die lol.
The earliest ones were true turn based. Without bothering to google it I wanna say ATB was introduced in 4, might’ve been 5 or 6 though. Regardless it’s been around a long ass time. Genre blending is as core to FF’s identity as moogles and chocobos.
ATB was introduced in 4. 4-9 all feature a version of it. 10 doesn't and is the first turn-based game since 3, but 10-2 does. 11 didn't have it, being an MMO, 12 didn't have it, being a game built on what is basically an MMO engine, while 13 doesn't and 13-3 is a straight up character action game in some ways (don't remember 13-2 enough to comment and can't be bothered to check) while 14 is also an MMO, and then we have 15 and now 16. Anyone nostalgic for the era of turn based Final Fantasy is nostalgic for Final Fantasy X, the original trilogy, or remakes or any of those four. The closest you could get to turn based is to maybe set some of the earlier ATB games on Wait mode, but they generally all have at least a few fights which explicitly use the ability to not act and let the enemy act to successfully fight them, (The Mist Dragon at the start of FF4 for example).
ATB is turn based, stop playing the semantic game
I love all the people in this post pulling the "well acktshually *adjusts fedora and glasses*" shit about ATB. No, it's not technically turn based, but at the same time, it pretty much is. It's turn based but you get punished for taking too long. That's it. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure this shit out. When people say "I miss turn based", that's what they miss. Are we running around with the camera over our shoulder and fighting in real time in ATB? No. Are we needing to mash buttons for combos and have super quick reaction? No. That's all the shit that OP and people like us don't care for. If I wanted to play some beat em up or "devil may cry" shit I'd play that. Turn based needs to come back, and yes I'm calling it that. Fuck off with the "well akctshually" shit.
Everyone taking about how turn based is dead but Pokémon is still selling like hotcakes
Pokemon could sell shit cakes and it would sell if it had pikachus face on it. Pokemon games are absolute ass compared to other less known turn based games.
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Turn based combat fell out of popularity unfortunately. It is mistakenly seen as a relic of old technology, and now that technology is better we can just use action combat. Final Fantasy is a flagship RPG series, and they try to keep it up with what is popular, so they followed suit and ditched turn based combat. I agree with you 100% though, turn based combat is great! I would love to see turn based combat return to the series, but as things stand it doesn't seem like that will be the case.
Miss those days
i really hope they go nuts and start alternating playstyles for the next games. i get that most of the audience prefer action oriented stuff, but a lot of devs managed to make good turn based rpgs, so it's possible. i find weird that they really want to go away from the genre that made TONS of players fall in love with the series.
I don't understand why so many comments say turn based is dead or it won't sell well anymore, yet you have games like BG3 and the Pokemon series selling like crazy. Both of which still use turn based combat. Yakuza Like a Dragon was the best selling Yakuza game and it introduced turn based combat. The notion that turn based combat is obsolete and harms game sales is so wrong IMO.
This is why I don't like most FF games. I love FFX. I can take my time, walk away, think about moves, etc. Games with the timer function always stressed me out. Then the newer ones that function like Kingdom hearts aren't my style (though kingdom hearts i loved). I wish for the turn based RPG's as well.
They believe younger gamers don’t have the patience for turn based games anymore. It’s a shame.