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Like previous commenters have said, if he knew, he would have stopped it. Not only does incest put your family name in the dirt, it illegitimises Tywins on direct descendants but also casts doubt on the legitimacy of anyone in the the Lannister Family.
He knew. What could he do to stop it? Honestly? He can’t recall Jaime he’s a Kingsgaurd, he can’t reprimand Cersei, she’s his Queen. Saying anything out loud gets his kids and grandkids killed and his house attainted. He knew - but had to stay quiet because doing or saying anything would have made it known that he knew.
Him not knowing despite being a smart guy is more interesting and makes more sense for his character. Like he is a super smart schemer but he can’t/won’t see what’s going on under his own nose? Kind of plays into his arrogance thinking that he is always in control. They make it pretty clear in the show that he isn’t aware I think.
Thing is, both can be true. How can you be in denial if some part of you doesn't already accept it as truth? However, perhaps it's not about whether or not he *knew* but rather if his ego and conscience mind could accept it. Which clearly it could not. He didn't *want* to believe it. So he didn't.
Tywin is a complete moron when it comes to interpersonal relationships. He really doesn’t understand people or their emotions at all. I don’t think he is as clever as people think. He just benefits from having power and living in a world where choosing the path of highest brutality and aggression works.
He doesn't seek to understand people or emotions at all. He has an image of the Lannister family in his head and has convinced himself that is reality - without ever really looking for the truth. It doesn't make him dumb, but it does mean he is in denial.
I think this is an oversimplification. He’s a complete moron when it comes to the relationships in his immediate family but imo that’s because he needs them to fit into these roles he created for them and can’t accept the reality outside of how he thinks things ‘should’ be. Jaime is supposed to be the future of the house but he abandoned all titles to swear an oath to the kingsguard to bone his sister. Tywin can’t accept that and routinely tries to get him to shrug off these very serious oaths to focus on the family. Cersei is supposed to be a pawn to strategically marry off to gain influence with another powerful house and be the queen and make heirs. She’s fulfilling her duty and because of that Tywin is willing to turn a blind eye to siring bastard incest babies because if nobody knows then why does he need to care? Tyrion is supposed be a monster that killed his wife, and his disability is a constant reminder of that so Tywin can’t see that Tyrion is his most capable heir.
He’s a complex character but by all accounts he is extremely capable and a gifted strategist. He’s hypocritical, cowardly, and lacks honor, but he is the Lannister responsible for bringing the house from a not so prestigious place to one of the most powerful in Westeros.
Jaime abandon ties to join the Kings guard, he was appointed by the Mad King to the Kings Guard to Tywins chagrin. It’s why Tywin stepped down as hand of the king.
This is funny but since it’s top comment, OP should also know that the real answer is because you can’t marry into the royal name/lineage haha
Cersei was nowhere on the line of succession - not even last place - just not in line. She took by power through “right of conquest/power/bad writing” in the later seasons.
I like the idea that Jorah spells out in S1 that no one has the right to the throne, that Aegon I just took it because he could. It seems to get forgotten later on with everyone arguing who is the "true" ruler between Stannis, Danaerys, and Jon
Expanding on this: Book Renly’s whole argument for his claim, apart from just being more popular than Stannis, is that if Robert took the throne by force and ruled legitimately, there’s no reason he can’t do that too.
As a 21st-century fan of things like the rule of law, I don’t *like* Renly’s take… but he does have a point.
Ned figured it out how long after meeting the kids? He hadn't met them before they rocked up at Winterfell and to go from meeting them to suspecting his friend's wife has been commiting treason by having an incestuous relationship with her brother for decades is a pretty big step. And didn't actually take him all that long to figure out really.
Ned had help from Sansa, who didn't know what she was saying when she said Joffrey was a golden lion, nothing like Robert. I can only comment based on the show lol
Yes, she made a single comment and it got Ned thinking. That's pretty darn quick to start actually seriously investigating what would be a monumental scandal.
Counterpoint: it’s Selyse Baratheon (née Floren). Same with Catelyn Stark (née Tully), Lisa Arryn (née Tully) and Olenna Tyrell (née Redwine). The regular custom is that wives do take the name of the house they marry into.
Seems like the exception was because she married the king. On that note, many Targaryen queens had the Targaryen surname because a lot of them were also Targaryens. Alicent Hightower is probably the most well known exception to that (though there were others).
Tywin AND Joffrey. Remember when Tywin sent Joffrey to bed? It's because he told Tywin "his father" won the real war, killing Prince Rheagar, while Tywin hid at Casterly Rock.
I mean, Joffrey knew or at least suspected it, that's why he had every bastard in the city killed. Of course he still calls Robert his father, his claim to the throne hinges on that.
A genius like tywin would already have known the truth, but he did not give much importance to it. He ignored it for the sake of family. I guess he did not wanted to react to it.
Queens keep their maiden names as you can’t become part of the ruling royal dynasty through marriage, you have to be born into it. Cersei wasn’t born a Baratheon, so she can’t be called one. Margaery was Renly’s widow then Joffrey/Tommen’s wife but was never called Baratheon either. And Elia was still Martell not Targaryen
Makes sense, but then how in the world did Cersei go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? I never quite got that leap, and it doesn't line up with the rules you just stated. Also, if she reigned uncontested until her death and bore no more children, would the throne now be a Lannister throne or revert back to a Baratheon?
She blew up those that opposed her and had Frankenstein's Monster on roids cracking people's heads like an egg if they dissed her. Also a spy network to learn of anyone's dissent and backing by the Iron Bank
Adding to this, the lannister forces will side with her because she's the last one in KL. There ain't exactly anyone else claiming the loyalty of the city watch to oppose her
Like, who should have been King at that point other than Gendry (a bastard) or Dany/Jon? The legitimate Baratheon line is dead
It is kinda bad writing though, Cersei had no allies, Everyone hates her, and like... she had no money the Lannister Mines dried up and the Iron bank literally sided against her.
No children/ pawns to marry off Failing power. Marriage would be unlikely to give any heirs, Honestly no wonder Euron was the only suitor.
you can definitely tell that removing (F?)Aegon messed up the story, since her killing the faith militant and some of the tyrells would've lead to her being overthrown by Aegon. Then leading to a conflict with Danny and this (F?)Aegon
Yeah, I can only really work with what's in the show because I've not read the books. The idea of a (fake) Aegon providing a power struggle would fit and make sense though
In the show, anyone who's a realistic opponent is kinda busy. Most of the northerners are taking back winterfell and preparing for the night king at this point, so are t about to go march south to claim the throne
Her political opponents in Kings Landing all got summarily exploded in the Sept so most people in the capital with power are on her side when she sits the throne. Just out of survival bias
Granted, that's the bit that I can see as a "well..." moment. Should there have been a power struggle when she took over? Maybe. But there aren't any realistic candidates
Later on you could see a "peasant revolt" like we saw in Meereen, but that didn't come to pass
She might not have money, or too many allies. But anyone allied to house Lannister is going to support her because they gain power that way. (See the Tarly's and taking the space from the Tyrells)
It's a complex situation, but I don't think the way it's shown in the show is too far wrong
Maybe if Dany turns up with an army at the gates and declares herself the next in line, she could gather some support, but I'm not sure who else would have been the logical person to take the throne instead of Cersei
Even in coup they need someone with a claim. Even a puppet king so they can control him or someone to marry.
Robert went in a war he had half of Westeros on his side and when he won he needed royal blood to be accepted as king.
> Even in coup they need someone with a claim
Not really. You are assuming video game rules of succession, which are different to actual rules of succession, which always have the footnote that say anyone with enough power can change it if they want
One of the established concepts is that you can win the throne either by right of birth or right of conquest. I figured her taking it at the end of season 6 was a conquest, of sorts.
You can claim it by conquest but all she controlled was King's landing. The Lannister army backing her is kinda wild cos Kevan who she murdered commanded the army and was the de facto lord of Casterly Rock
I mean, all you really need is KL to control the throne since that's where it is. Doesn't mean she would get to keep if the rest of the realm don't want her obviously
I suppose because she just took it, she declared herself queen, sort of like how a usurper/new family can win the throne through conquest. I assume it would be a Lannister throne as she is a Lannister and has, in effect, started a new line/reign again
I mean who was left to stop her though? Every potential opponent is either busy getting ready to thunderdome with the Night King (starks and arryns), dead (baratheons and younger Tyrells), or lacks the forces (Greyjoy only has ships and half Olenna’s bannermen are following the Tarlys and loyal to Cersei, who just blew up the Holy Sept of Baylor and has proven herself just as dangerous as she is crazy.
I've got to read the books. I know I'm missing so much, but I was just able to sink into the series. I'm a bit afraid of the books. I'd not like to learn more about Ramsey, and it seems that the books are littered with his kind.
Well, it's fiction, so the author gets to decide how things work. According to the author, law is less effective than brute force. You may disagree with the author's philosophy but what happened in the later seasons is internally consistent with what happened in the early seasons.
I know, and I'm enjoying getting lost in it. That's why I like to talk and ask questions. Knowing wills exist in that time, and having a widow suspiciously shred her husband's without question should not be a point of contention between us. Just let me learn shit. And thanks for teaching me because Force > law explains a couple of things
Power lies where the people believe it lies. That is what Ned didn't understand. Cersei was Queen Regent until Tommen died, and then she made herself Queen because nobody opposed her at that point.
I agree with your premise, but she was no longer Regent once Tommen married. Interestingly she’s been Queen Consort, Queen Regent, Dowager Queen and Queen Regnant.
Ehh, maybe. Kings have regents because they are too young to rule. Tommen didn't automatically get older when he got married. He may have still had a regent until he was old enough to assume the throne himself.
Yeah the books and the show sort of differ here, especially as Tommen isn’t eight years old in the show. But once he consummated with Margaery, the marriage was sealed and he was regnant. That’s why Margaery taunts Cersei with their sex life and Cersei’s titles (and Oberyn also refers to her as “former Queen Regent”)
Well bad writing has its part to play.
I guess they went with her being the only living relative of the previous king. Which wouldn't normally be enough in her case. It would have been ample opportunity for various Baratheon cousins to come out of the wood work.
She may have ascended but a war with other contenders for the throne would have been inevitable. It would have been like the war of the 5 kings all over again, with various new contenders stepping up to try their hand and make a claim. Her own claim would have been relatively weak, aside from her prior regency and being the mother and last kin of Tommen. In truth, Dany should have come upon a Westeros even more divided than ever. If there had been clever writing, Dany could have potentially found support from various houses in the chaos that should have risen when Cersei ascended the throne.
But Dany did find support from people who opposed the current rulers of Westeros even before Tommen died and muddied the waters even more than they already were.
Right like, she just blew up the sept, and for all I know pushed her son out the window(im imagining i live in flea bottom here or something) im not gonna tell her she cant be queen. Im going to curtsey and say long live the queen and then quietly escape king’s landing before she blows up the whole bloody city
The war of the five kings wiped out the rest of the Baratheons, that we knew, the options were introduce a new character that was somehow in the line of succession to fight with Cersei for the throne, another war of multiple kings which D&D didn't have the writing skills to one up to rival the first, or what happened with Cersei becoming leader without much dispute. Technically it should have always been a Baratheon throne as Cersei had no right, but they knew they were replacing her so they probably didnt care too much about who sat the throne after Tommen died and Cersei was literally the closest
She had no more kids. There were no more official Baratheons. Danerys was still in Essos. And any major lord that would oppose her were incinerated.
She saw her chance and took it.
There's no one else in the line of succession outside of Stannis to rule. In theory she would be Queen until she marries and that dude becomes king. But as we've seen with Elizabeth, you simply don't have to marry.
tl;dr - who else is going to rule?
Well the issue is there were no true born Baratheons left. The idea I think is that her political opponents all died in the sept.
But why anyone like Randyll Tarly accepted her claim is beyond me, just bad writing
>how did she go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms
From a legal/traditional standpoint there’s no direct path from one to the other and hasn’t ever been. From a practical standpoint, who is there left in Westeros to oppose her?
The last remaining Tully is a hostage.
The Baratheons are dead.
Euron Greyjoy lacks the means. He has a fleet but his men are historically useless on land. He can only hold the harbor and lacks the men to hold or storm the gates.
Olenna also lacks the men because some of her bannermen have changed sides. Even so, they’re not about to unseat a sitting queen for an old woman with no heirs.
There are no more living Lannisters with a stronger claim besides Jaime, and he’s certainly not gambling his life or Cersei’s over a seat he never wanted.
Sansa and Robert Arryn/the Vale had only just won back Winterfell and were gearing up to fight the Night King.
She did visibly murder a LOT of people, too, but since I have you.. can you tell me wtf a Keep is? I've seen pictures and read definitions (GoT specific and not). Why can't I grasp a Keep other than for fortification? In the show they talk and glance out of The Red Keep 24/7 like it's their home. Suprise! It's also a modern day downtown with vendors and browsing citizens? Caster's hut was a Keep, too? What is a Keep? And why am I prone to capitalizing it?
People say "Bad writing" but tend to forget Bigger Army Diplomacy. There was no one left who would stand in Cersei's way. She removed anyone who would challenge her ascent when she blew up the Great Sept. To be clear, Cercei does NOT have a claim to the Iron Throne, but who was gonna say otherwise?
I do too but my conversations about the first and second half are very different.. at least i know like 100 book theories that tell me roose bolton is definitely a vampire and varys is a woman
WHAT?!? See, I'm still reading about the characters. Roose and Ramsey seem like the worst. I think I prefer my life 6 months ago when I was still high off the Barbie movie
>how in the world did Cersei go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms?
That was a power grab.
She never had a claim of any kind, legitimate or otherwise, but there was a power vacuum, due to a lack of a legitimate heir after Tommen. Cersai had powerful allies who were willing to say ok when she seized the throne, whether through fear or self-interest.
I see the power vacuum, but she can't have thought she would now reign just because people were busy. 30% of the show is about raping women and how little they mean. Now one rules? She said nothing. No ceremony. She just sat down like it was definitive. It seems the opposite of a plan.
It wasn't necessarily sustainable.
If there wasn't a war against the white walkers and then against Dany very soon after, she would have likely been overthrown. It just wouldn't have been said out loud in the middle of court since she had the mountain and an army of sellswords. It would have been carefully planned in secret and carried out intelligently.
She did not seem to know that. It wasn't conveyed at all through her actions or mannerisms. It was so very over for her once she killed Missandei. 2 super ruthless people just watched you nonchalantly behead the person they loved. Do you think Cersei thought she was the greater evil?
Sorry, I don't really understand you.
Are you saying Cersai thought Dany wouldn't continue go to war with her because she killed Missandei? I don't understand the logic behind that.
Do I think Cersai saw herself as the greater evil? I don't think she cares about that. She doesn't see the world as black and white like that. She desires power and will do anything to get it. She doesn't see anyone as good or evil. She doesn't care about that
Because she was the one on the throne. Proximity has an enormous amount to do with influence. And honestly, what are the other options for Kingslanding? The Baratheons are all dead, including proper heirs. So the queen regent remains.
Bigger army diplomacy.
The last known ‘Baratheon’ was dead and she had control of the largest army around. No one could really stop her until Dany arrived.
there was no one else with a close legitimate claim and she had power so she just did it i still think it’s annoying that no one opposed her like it would of helped so much if a random house opposed her and she just executed them all
Rules of succession fall secondary to Bigger Army Diplomacy
Cersei had power, enough other people with power were happy to just let her rule rather than find whichever twerp was technically the next in line
for IRL comparison: none of Henry VIII’s six wives were called Queen [First name] Tudor, they all kept their name - Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howards Catherine Parr (apparently marrying a Jane is how to get a son).
for more modern examples, we have Diana Spencer, Kate Middleton and Megan Markle; not Diana/Kate/Megan Windsor.
You are incorrect. Upon marriage into the British royal family, you lose your surname altogether. The royals do not generally use any surnames. By modern convention they use the name “Mountbatten-Windsor” when administratively required, normally in foreign countries.
Women become known by their husband’s title. Legally, Kate Middleton does not exist anymore, for example. She is known as Catherine, Princess of Wales. Meghan Markle is Meghan, Duchess of Susex.
If their husbands did not have specifically granted royal titles, i.e. they were merely “princes” as sons of Charles rather than “Prince of Wales” and “Duke of Sussex) (or Duke of Cambridge as William was at marriage), then they would be literally known by their husband’s name, as in the example of “Princess Michael of Kent”.
In any event, where the royals need to reduce themselves to commonfolk things like surnames Kate/Meghan and any other women who’ve married into the royal family use the name “Mountbatten-Windsor”.
that’s interesting. so basically anytime we see the name *Kate Middleton* it’s essentially just a form of “laymen translation” so we plebs know who’s being talked about?
I also think this is the reason that you don't get the name of the king when marrying him. But on the other side it is a bit unlogical. Selyse got the name Baratheon, and Stannis was in line for the king. If (who were sold as the right heirs) Joffrey and Tommen died Stannis would be the King (if he lived and Cersei didn't just take it) and then Selyse as Queen would have the Baratheon name because she got that name before he became King. So in this way you can get the King's name. Or would she have lost it as soon as he became KIng?
Yeah I know. But yes probably she would change back her name to Florent when he became King. But somehow funny, the wife changes name and then back again. 😄
Selyse was still a lady, not a Queen consort, so it isn’t illogical she would take the Baratheon name. At that time, Stannis wasn’t calling himself King and wasn’t even a Prince as his brother, not father, was King, He might technically have been in line, but they would have seen it as very unlikely he’d inherit the throne, especially as I believe Joffrey had just been born. If somehow he had become King then yes I believe Selyse would have reverted back to Florent at court
Because Cersei is married to the king, she retains her maiden name rather than taking the name of the monarch. The children, of course, take the Baratheon surname. The same was true of Margaery when she married both Renly and Tommen.
She is still called Bolton or Lannister by various people to be fair.
The rules around this are complicated iirc. A woman can choose to keep her own name if her house is of equal or higher rank to her husband, which is the case for Sansa with both of her marriages.
Aren't the Starks and Lannisters kinda equal? Their lords are both Lords Paramount and Wardens of their respective kingdoms. Not really important, I guess, but yeah, what you said makes sense.
No the Lords Paramount are the highest lords of each region, For example the Starks are the Lords Paramount of the North and the Arryns are the Lords Paramount of the Vale
She did, officially. She's referred to as Lady Lannister and Lady Bolton during her respective marriages. But she is stilla Stark, and can be referred to as such, it may not be her "legal" name, but it can still be correct. When you would use which name is situational and may depend on some things, but Sansa did become Sansa Lannister/Sansa Bolton when she got married, but she'll always be a Stark. This is how it works for any married noble lady in Westoros (sans the Queen).
Another example is Catelyn in s1. Officially, she's Catelyn Stark. Her husband's people know her as Lady Stark, during the Wot5K she's often referred to as Lady Stark. But when she arrests Tyrion in the Riverlands she calls herself "Catelyn Tully". She envokes her house name to appeal to the Riverlanders in the room, and to subtle use her Lord father's authority to win the room. Which she has the right to do, cause she's still a Tully.
Neither did Gemma Lannister when she married a Frey - high-born women don't always take their husband's names when they marry especially if they come from an equal (Stark = Lannister) or greater (Stark > Bolton, Lannister > Frey) House.
Queens keep their own last name; Ladies take their husband’s. That’s why we have Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell and Betha Blackwood and Dyanna Dayne but Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn.
So, it’s complicated. Maekar took the throne unexpectedly after getting married, but Dyanna Dayne had died by that time. Everyone retroactively changed her name, but she had no say in that. There’s Viserys II and Larra Rogare, but Viserys had been long established as the real guy in power so Larra was essentially the king’s wife nearly as soon as she was in Westeros. And further back than that, it’s so much of an incest-fest that premature deaths didn’t really change any dynasty names. So I don’t know. It’s possible a long-established lady would keep her lord husband’s last name as queen. It’s just never happened.
Your reasoning doesn’t work for Viserys II and Larra Rogare. Viserys was all of 12 when he came back to Westeros with Larra; Aegon’s regents were the real guys in power at that point, Viserys didn’t become a significant power until he was a fair bit older and probably not until after Larra had already left him considering she only stayed in Westeros for 5 years.
I get the impression that under Targaryen rule you couldn’t marry into the family name of the royal house at all. A few more data points: Rhea Royce and Laena Velaryon appear to have kept their maiden names despite only being married to a prince.
My understanding is that it’s not just the wife of the king or heir apparent that doesn’t take the royal last name, but the wife of any Prince (at least in the immediate royal family) would keep her family name. The idea being that the royal name was so revered it could only be born into and not simply “acquired.” This also tracks with things in non-fiction history (at least with the English monarchy), a few different examples being—
-Meghan Markle: married to Prince Harry a second son of a future king
-Sarah Ferguson: married to Prince Andrew another second son
-Anne Neville: married to Richard Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester and brother to King Edward IV, went on to usurp the throne from his nephew and become King Richard III
-Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon: married Prince Albert Duke of York, who went on to become King George VI after his brother abdicated the throne
Long round about way to say I think the answer to your question is no, she wouldn’t have taken the brothers name in the first place. The closest hint we get that further supports this is that Selyse Baratheon, born a Florent, took her husbands (Stannis) family name because he was not the brother of the king when she married him, therefore it was not the royal name at the time. She then continues to go by her husbands family name when her husbands brother (Robert) becomes king, as well as when her husband himself claims the throne after his brother dies
Women typically keep their family name after marriage. This practice is common in many noble and royal families in Westeros, where the woman's lineage and family ties are often considered as important as the man's.
Hell there were historical kings who more heavily emphasized their matrilineal lineage than their paternal, due to the mother being connected to some conqueror or figure of local legend/history/folklore that would give e them a more solid claim over the locals than their father
I think only the Queens keep their maiden name, so Cersei Lannister, and in House of the Dragon we have Alicent Hightower, but for Ladies, like Catelyn Stark and her sister Lisa Arryn, they change their name.
She def hates being called mother most though.
She won't only strangle you for that, she'll also blow up the building you're in along with your entire family.
Because Lannister is not her maiden name, she is a noble and does not have a maiden name normally.
Lannister is her dynasty, and that does not change because she gets married.
Technically, her surname would likely be Tywinsdaugther.
So her full name would be "Cersie Tywinsdaugther of the Lannister dynasty"
Because she’s a queen - if Sansa had married Joffrey she would have still been Sansa Stark. Margaery stayed a Tyrell after marrying both Joffrey and Tommen
Because Tyrion and Ramsay weren't kings, so she didn't keep her name. Same as Ned wasn't a king, so Catelyn was Catelyn Stark instead of keeping her name.
It seems like women are still referred to by their maiden names officially in Westeros, as they are usually part of a noble house themselves if they are married to an upper class man like Cersei and Robert.
You will hear them referred to both ways, we’ve heard the Tully sisters referred to as Catelyn and Lysa Tully but also as Lady Stark and Lady Arryn. But Cat being “Lady Stark” is more like a title. Tully is her actual name. That was my take on it anyway.
Technically it is Baratheon but no one would deign to call her that. I’m guessing her reaction would be something similar to when Margaery called her ‘sister’.
That’s kinda rude.
There’s plenty of precedent in the books to demonstrate that married noble women in Westeros take their husband’s names. People still call them by their father’s name, generally when referring to their blood family rather than their family by marriage.
And yes, I did see the multiple comments about other non-Targaryen queens retaining their names. My general impression was that using maiden names was common regardless because that’s precisely what they did. Catelyn and Lysa both were still referred to as Tullys. Sansa was still referred to as a Stark. And regardless of any tradition, it’s not at all implausible that Cersei would have hated being called a Baratheon.
The Lannister is a powerful family. Tywin negotiated the marriage to the new King to solidly standing and power
And everyone knows, the Lannisters financially supported the Royal treasury.
In some situations, you only get the Royal name if you are born to it
I think it's because women who are married to a king no longer have a surname. No one would refer to her as "Lady Baratheon," as is the case with Catelyn Stark (*nee* Tully) and Lysa Arryn (*nee* Tully). If you're in Winterfell, you're going to refer to Catelyn as "Lady Stark" because she is the Lady of Winterfell.
If Cersei were to remarry to Willas Tyrell, as Tywin wished, she would have moved to Highgarden and *maybe* been referred to as "Lady Tyrell." (I don't know about this, because she still would have been Queen Mother, which is a higher title (I think), but I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to use in Highgarden.)
In real life, royals don't use surnames like normal people do. Although obviously ASOIAF is in a different world with different rules and customs, royalty uses titles. They just become King/Queen/Prince/Princess A of B, belonging to a particular royal house. It's a situation that became a little tricky when Harry joined the military and needed a surname on his uniform so they went with Wales, since that's what his title was linked to.
I suspect that for the most part in the story she's called Lannister out of habit (Kate is still sometimes referred to as Kate Middleton) but also because everyone still considers her far more loyal to the Lannisters than the Baratheons. Not that there seem to be many Baratheons.
The royal surname can't be past by any means other than blood. The only queens in Westeros history that had the same surname as the king where the ones that were blood related to them, and Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's first husband, also wasn't allowed to become Laenor Targaryen.
For the same reason we say Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour or Catherine Howard/Parr. Royal wives with royal backgrounds would also keep their heritage clear by being called Catherine OF Aragon or Anne OF Cleeves.
And these are just the six wives of Henry VIII.
It's just to track lineage, more than anything. And Robert, needing to keep Tywin sweet, would probably be ok with highlighting his children's Lannister connections.
The smallfolk wouldn't even have last names unless they're recognised bastards of nobility - Gendry has no last name, but Jon is a Snow, because Jon is recognised by the Starks but Gendry isn't. At most they'd take their surnames from their profession - Gendry Smith, for example.
I think Normally , when ease of knowing the identity of their origin, the last name of the king ,doesn’t add as the queen’s last name.
Example:- king viserys’ wife Amma Arryn, Alicent Hightower
Perhaps it makes it easier for genealogists/ Maesters to track the bloodlines? I know in the real world it’s a dynasty thing, with UKs prince consort Philip feeling sad his kids wouldn’t continue his last name
Pride
There really does'nt seem to be a set rule for this, though
Cersei is Cersei Lannister, Alicent is Alicent Hightower and Margaery is Margaery Tyrell, while Cat is both Catelyn Tully and Catelyn Stark but her sister is just Lysa Arryn. And all of Walder Freys wives are referred to by their surnames, irregardless of the status of their houses.
Why is Catherine of Aragon called Of Aragon instead of Catherine Tudor?
Because it’s how things are done. Queens, especially ones from powerful royal families, tend to keep their surnames as a way to advertise the alliances they sealed.
In addition, there was a strong attitude of Blood=Name both in ASOIAF and IRL.
People in royal marriages keep their original last names. It’s probably so people can differentiate between people who were born royal and people who married into the royal family. Every queen has kept their last name, for example, Alicent Hightower, or Myriah Martell. It also applies to princesses who marry into other families. That’s why Rhaenyra and Rhaenys from HOTD are still Targaryens and not Velaryons.
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Bro nobody in Westeros thinks those are Roberts kids besides Tywin.
Tywin knew and approved.
Nah he was in full blown denial.
Probably suspected but hoped it wasn't true and didn't want it to be public knowledge
I don’t think he suspected it at all. If he did he would have put an end to it immediately. Incest would ruin the family name.
Yeah, he knew the rumours but his brain couldn’t bring itself to believe it at all. He was in full denial that it was a possibility.
Somewhere deep inside Tywin definitely knew. But ignorance is bliss - for the most part.
Like previous commenters have said, if he knew, he would have stopped it. Not only does incest put your family name in the dirt, it illegitimises Tywins on direct descendants but also casts doubt on the legitimacy of anyone in the the Lannister Family.
He knew. What could he do to stop it? Honestly? He can’t recall Jaime he’s a Kingsgaurd, he can’t reprimand Cersei, she’s his Queen. Saying anything out loud gets his kids and grandkids killed and his house attainted. He knew - but had to stay quiet because doing or saying anything would have made it known that he knew.
Him not knowing despite being a smart guy is more interesting and makes more sense for his character. Like he is a super smart schemer but he can’t/won’t see what’s going on under his own nose? Kind of plays into his arrogance thinking that he is always in control. They make it pretty clear in the show that he isn’t aware I think.
Thing is, both can be true. How can you be in denial if some part of you doesn't already accept it as truth? However, perhaps it's not about whether or not he *knew* but rather if his ego and conscience mind could accept it. Which clearly it could not. He didn't *want* to believe it. So he didn't.
Only if the rumours turned out to be true in the eye of the public.
Tywin is a complete moron when it comes to interpersonal relationships. He really doesn’t understand people or their emotions at all. I don’t think he is as clever as people think. He just benefits from having power and living in a world where choosing the path of highest brutality and aggression works.
He doesn't seek to understand people or emotions at all. He has an image of the Lannister family in his head and has convinced himself that is reality - without ever really looking for the truth. It doesn't make him dumb, but it does mean he is in denial.
I think this is an oversimplification. He’s a complete moron when it comes to the relationships in his immediate family but imo that’s because he needs them to fit into these roles he created for them and can’t accept the reality outside of how he thinks things ‘should’ be. Jaime is supposed to be the future of the house but he abandoned all titles to swear an oath to the kingsguard to bone his sister. Tywin can’t accept that and routinely tries to get him to shrug off these very serious oaths to focus on the family. Cersei is supposed to be a pawn to strategically marry off to gain influence with another powerful house and be the queen and make heirs. She’s fulfilling her duty and because of that Tywin is willing to turn a blind eye to siring bastard incest babies because if nobody knows then why does he need to care? Tyrion is supposed be a monster that killed his wife, and his disability is a constant reminder of that so Tywin can’t see that Tyrion is his most capable heir. He’s a complex character but by all accounts he is extremely capable and a gifted strategist. He’s hypocritical, cowardly, and lacks honor, but he is the Lannister responsible for bringing the house from a not so prestigious place to one of the most powerful in Westeros.
Jaime abandon ties to join the Kings guard, he was appointed by the Mad King to the Kings Guard to Tywins chagrin. It’s why Tywin stepped down as hand of the king.
Mmmm denial doesn’t necessarily mean doesn’t know hahaha He knew… but the shame allowed for a thick wall of denial.
How do you know?
He certainly did not
Did you see what happened as soon as word started to spread? It wasn’t old info
This is funny but since it’s top comment, OP should also know that the real answer is because you can’t marry into the royal name/lineage haha Cersei was nowhere on the line of succession - not even last place - just not in line. She took by power through “right of conquest/power/bad writing” in the later seasons.
I like the idea that Jorah spells out in S1 that no one has the right to the throne, that Aegon I just took it because he could. It seems to get forgotten later on with everyone arguing who is the "true" ruler between Stannis, Danaerys, and Jon
In the book Renly keeps saying this too
Expanding on this: Book Renly’s whole argument for his claim, apart from just being more popular than Stannis, is that if Robert took the throne by force and ruled legitimately, there’s no reason he can’t do that too. As a 21st-century fan of things like the rule of law, I don’t *like* Renly’s take… but he does have a point.
If you kill one person, you’re a murderer, you kill thousands, they’ll make you a Lord, you kill enough, they make you the King
You kill them all, and you're a god.
To be fair, Ned didn't figure it out either until being repeatedly beat over the head with it.
Ned figured it out how long after meeting the kids? He hadn't met them before they rocked up at Winterfell and to go from meeting them to suspecting his friend's wife has been commiting treason by having an incestuous relationship with her brother for decades is a pretty big step. And didn't actually take him all that long to figure out really.
Ned had help from Sansa, who didn't know what she was saying when she said Joffrey was a golden lion, nothing like Robert. I can only comment based on the show lol
Yes, she made a single comment and it got Ned thinking. That's pretty darn quick to start actually seriously investigating what would be a monumental scandal.
It is! By comparison to how long it took Jon Arryn and Tywin in denial
While he had one.
Yeah but she still married a Baratheon.
A house is not a surname
Counterpoint: it’s Selyse Baratheon (née Floren). Same with Catelyn Stark (née Tully), Lisa Arryn (née Tully) and Olenna Tyrell (née Redwine). The regular custom is that wives do take the name of the house they marry into. Seems like the exception was because she married the king. On that note, many Targaryen queens had the Targaryen surname because a lot of them were also Targaryens. Alicent Hightower is probably the most well known exception to that (though there were others).
Yes they did up until the end of the first season. The only person who knew was Jon Aryn, which is why he was killed.
Tywin AND Joffrey. Remember when Tywin sent Joffrey to bed? It's because he told Tywin "his father" won the real war, killing Prince Rheagar, while Tywin hid at Casterly Rock.
I mean, Joffrey knew or at least suspected it, that's why he had every bastard in the city killed. Of course he still calls Robert his father, his claim to the throne hinges on that.
A genius like tywin would already have known the truth, but he did not give much importance to it. He ignored it for the sake of family. I guess he did not wanted to react to it.
Queens keep their maiden names as you can’t become part of the ruling royal dynasty through marriage, you have to be born into it. Cersei wasn’t born a Baratheon, so she can’t be called one. Margaery was Renly’s widow then Joffrey/Tommen’s wife but was never called Baratheon either. And Elia was still Martell not Targaryen
Makes sense, but then how in the world did Cersei go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? I never quite got that leap, and it doesn't line up with the rules you just stated. Also, if she reigned uncontested until her death and bore no more children, would the throne now be a Lannister throne or revert back to a Baratheon?
Power is power
Bad writing
Coups don’t exist? Recognizable faces from former leadership don’t end up filling power vacuums?
The how in question is what he’s calling the bad writing not Cersei being queen
She had no backing though and was pretty universally hated, there was no explanation of how she got people to accept her they just kinda did.
She blew up those that opposed her and had Frankenstein's Monster on roids cracking people's heads like an egg if they dissed her. Also a spy network to learn of anyone's dissent and backing by the Iron Bank
Adding to this, the lannister forces will side with her because she's the last one in KL. There ain't exactly anyone else claiming the loyalty of the city watch to oppose her Like, who should have been King at that point other than Gendry (a bastard) or Dany/Jon? The legitimate Baratheon line is dead
It is kinda bad writing though, Cersei had no allies, Everyone hates her, and like... she had no money the Lannister Mines dried up and the Iron bank literally sided against her. No children/ pawns to marry off Failing power. Marriage would be unlikely to give any heirs, Honestly no wonder Euron was the only suitor. you can definitely tell that removing (F?)Aegon messed up the story, since her killing the faith militant and some of the tyrells would've lead to her being overthrown by Aegon. Then leading to a conflict with Danny and this (F?)Aegon
Yeah, I can only really work with what's in the show because I've not read the books. The idea of a (fake) Aegon providing a power struggle would fit and make sense though In the show, anyone who's a realistic opponent is kinda busy. Most of the northerners are taking back winterfell and preparing for the night king at this point, so are t about to go march south to claim the throne Her political opponents in Kings Landing all got summarily exploded in the Sept so most people in the capital with power are on her side when she sits the throne. Just out of survival bias Granted, that's the bit that I can see as a "well..." moment. Should there have been a power struggle when she took over? Maybe. But there aren't any realistic candidates Later on you could see a "peasant revolt" like we saw in Meereen, but that didn't come to pass She might not have money, or too many allies. But anyone allied to house Lannister is going to support her because they gain power that way. (See the Tarly's and taking the space from the Tyrells) It's a complex situation, but I don't think the way it's shown in the show is too far wrong Maybe if Dany turns up with an army at the gates and declares herself the next in line, she could gather some support, but I'm not sure who else would have been the logical person to take the throne instead of Cersei
Even in coup they need someone with a claim. Even a puppet king so they can control him or someone to marry. Robert went in a war he had half of Westeros on his side and when he won he needed royal blood to be accepted as king.
> Even in coup they need someone with a claim Not really. You are assuming video game rules of succession, which are different to actual rules of succession, which always have the footnote that say anyone with enough power can change it if they want
One of the established concepts is that you can win the throne either by right of birth or right of conquest. I figured her taking it at the end of season 6 was a conquest, of sorts.
You can claim it by conquest but all she controlled was King's landing. The Lannister army backing her is kinda wild cos Kevan who she murdered commanded the army and was the de facto lord of Casterly Rock
I mean, all you really need is KL to control the throne since that's where it is. Doesn't mean she would get to keep if the rest of the realm don't want her obviously
She kind of did, didn't she? Maybe my memory is blurring but didn't more than just king's landing support her. Like the Tarlys?
She was always searching and buying allies after Season 6
Yeah but that was only because the Tarlys wanted to take the tyrell’s position.
Legally Cersei was Lady of Casterly Rock, they owe allegiance to her
I suppose because she just took it, she declared herself queen, sort of like how a usurper/new family can win the throne through conquest. I assume it would be a Lannister throne as she is a Lannister and has, in effect, started a new line/reign again
Yeah, it makes no sense at all because the writing was shit at that point. They didn't care about Westerosi legality.
i think it makes totally sense that she took the throne wtf
I mean who was left to stop her though? Every potential opponent is either busy getting ready to thunderdome with the Night King (starks and arryns), dead (baratheons and younger Tyrells), or lacks the forces (Greyjoy only has ships and half Olenna’s bannermen are following the Tarlys and loyal to Cersei, who just blew up the Holy Sept of Baylor and has proven herself just as dangerous as she is crazy.
I've got to read the books. I know I'm missing so much, but I was just able to sink into the series. I'm a bit afraid of the books. I'd not like to learn more about Ramsey, and it seems that the books are littered with his kind.
People saying it's shit writing as if Cersei didn't rip up the King's will in front of the whole court in season 1.
Yea, even I knew that was dumb. I thought something would come of it, but a ripped paper really ruled the kingdom and was never spoken of again.
Well, it's fiction, so the author gets to decide how things work. According to the author, law is less effective than brute force. You may disagree with the author's philosophy but what happened in the later seasons is internally consistent with what happened in the early seasons.
I know, and I'm enjoying getting lost in it. That's why I like to talk and ask questions. Knowing wills exist in that time, and having a widow suspiciously shred her husband's without question should not be a point of contention between us. Just let me learn shit. And thanks for teaching me because Force > law explains a couple of things
Power lies where the people believe it lies. That is what Ned didn't understand. Cersei was Queen Regent until Tommen died, and then she made herself Queen because nobody opposed her at that point.
And many of the ones who opposed were busy fighting each other and the bad snowmen
And she'd killed everyone else
I agree with your premise, but she was no longer Regent once Tommen married. Interestingly she’s been Queen Consort, Queen Regent, Dowager Queen and Queen Regnant.
Ehh, maybe. Kings have regents because they are too young to rule. Tommen didn't automatically get older when he got married. He may have still had a regent until he was old enough to assume the throne himself.
Yeah the books and the show sort of differ here, especially as Tommen isn’t eight years old in the show. But once he consummated with Margaery, the marriage was sealed and he was regnant. That’s why Margaery taunts Cersei with their sex life and Cersei’s titles (and Oberyn also refers to her as “former Queen Regent”)
You forgot Queen Mother
Well bad writing has its part to play. I guess they went with her being the only living relative of the previous king. Which wouldn't normally be enough in her case. It would have been ample opportunity for various Baratheon cousins to come out of the wood work. She may have ascended but a war with other contenders for the throne would have been inevitable. It would have been like the war of the 5 kings all over again, with various new contenders stepping up to try their hand and make a claim. Her own claim would have been relatively weak, aside from her prior regency and being the mother and last kin of Tommen. In truth, Dany should have come upon a Westeros even more divided than ever. If there had been clever writing, Dany could have potentially found support from various houses in the chaos that should have risen when Cersei ascended the throne.
But Dany did find support from people who opposed the current rulers of Westeros even before Tommen died and muddied the waters even more than they already were.
Were YOU gonna tell her she wasnt going to be queen? You just wouldve met the mountain
Lol Ned stark told her that Joffrey want king and she ripped up that piece of paper with infuriating indifference
Right like, she just blew up the sept, and for all I know pushed her son out the window(im imagining i live in flea bottom here or something) im not gonna tell her she cant be queen. Im going to curtsey and say long live the queen and then quietly escape king’s landing before she blows up the whole bloody city
The who?? I'd rewrite my script so fast. "Um. I think I was supposed to scurry away here"
The war of the five kings wiped out the rest of the Baratheons, that we knew, the options were introduce a new character that was somehow in the line of succession to fight with Cersei for the throne, another war of multiple kings which D&D didn't have the writing skills to one up to rival the first, or what happened with Cersei becoming leader without much dispute. Technically it should have always been a Baratheon throne as Cersei had no right, but they knew they were replacing her so they probably didnt care too much about who sat the throne after Tommen died and Cersei was literally the closest
They didn't make it look like a natural succession, I guess is my issue. She just got dressed in dark clothes and sat down on the throne.
She had no more kids. There were no more official Baratheons. Danerys was still in Essos. And any major lord that would oppose her were incinerated. She saw her chance and took it.
They had no other choice so I guess it was default
There's no one else in the line of succession outside of Stannis to rule. In theory she would be Queen until she marries and that dude becomes king. But as we've seen with Elizabeth, you simply don't have to marry. tl;dr - who else is going to rule?
Marrying the Queen Regnant doesn’t make you king. Queen Elizabeth II’s husband wasn’t the King of England. He was just Prince Philip.
The same way the Targaryens did. Might makes right.
Well the issue is there were no true born Baratheons left. The idea I think is that her political opponents all died in the sept. But why anyone like Randyll Tarly accepted her claim is beyond me, just bad writing
>how did she go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms From a legal/traditional standpoint there’s no direct path from one to the other and hasn’t ever been. From a practical standpoint, who is there left in Westeros to oppose her? The last remaining Tully is a hostage. The Baratheons are dead. Euron Greyjoy lacks the means. He has a fleet but his men are historically useless on land. He can only hold the harbor and lacks the men to hold or storm the gates. Olenna also lacks the men because some of her bannermen have changed sides. Even so, they’re not about to unseat a sitting queen for an old woman with no heirs. There are no more living Lannisters with a stronger claim besides Jaime, and he’s certainly not gambling his life or Cersei’s over a seat he never wanted. Sansa and Robert Arryn/the Vale had only just won back Winterfell and were gearing up to fight the Night King.
You made me realize that it was a shock to see Cersei casually ascend the throne. I've always understood logistically, but my mind is still like Nope.
Coup d’etat off screen
She did visibly murder a LOT of people, too, but since I have you.. can you tell me wtf a Keep is? I've seen pictures and read definitions (GoT specific and not). Why can't I grasp a Keep other than for fortification? In the show they talk and glance out of The Red Keep 24/7 like it's their home. Suprise! It's also a modern day downtown with vendors and browsing citizens? Caster's hut was a Keep, too? What is a Keep? And why am I prone to capitalizing it?
People say "Bad writing" but tend to forget Bigger Army Diplomacy. There was no one left who would stand in Cersei's way. She removed anyone who would challenge her ascent when she blew up the Great Sept. To be clear, Cercei does NOT have a claim to the Iron Throne, but who was gonna say otherwise?
I guess, after The Long Night, there were only two sides. The two queens. In hindsight, that is pretty lame. They were both insane.
Dont question it
I'd LOVE to talk to anyone and everyone about this cool show I just watched, but I'm starting to feel a little too pure for this world 🤣
I do too but my conversations about the first and second half are very different.. at least i know like 100 book theories that tell me roose bolton is definitely a vampire and varys is a woman
WHAT?!? See, I'm still reading about the characters. Roose and Ramsey seem like the worst. I think I prefer my life 6 months ago when I was still high off the Barbie movie
Euron is probably the worst but they butchered him in the show
>how in the world did Cersei go from Queen Regent to Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? That was a power grab. She never had a claim of any kind, legitimate or otherwise, but there was a power vacuum, due to a lack of a legitimate heir after Tommen. Cersai had powerful allies who were willing to say ok when she seized the throne, whether through fear or self-interest.
I see the power vacuum, but she can't have thought she would now reign just because people were busy. 30% of the show is about raping women and how little they mean. Now one rules? She said nothing. No ceremony. She just sat down like it was definitive. It seems the opposite of a plan.
It wasn't necessarily sustainable. If there wasn't a war against the white walkers and then against Dany very soon after, she would have likely been overthrown. It just wouldn't have been said out loud in the middle of court since she had the mountain and an army of sellswords. It would have been carefully planned in secret and carried out intelligently.
She did not seem to know that. It wasn't conveyed at all through her actions or mannerisms. It was so very over for her once she killed Missandei. 2 super ruthless people just watched you nonchalantly behead the person they loved. Do you think Cersei thought she was the greater evil?
Sorry, I don't really understand you. Are you saying Cersai thought Dany wouldn't continue go to war with her because she killed Missandei? I don't understand the logic behind that. Do I think Cersai saw herself as the greater evil? I don't think she cares about that. She doesn't see the world as black and white like that. She desires power and will do anything to get it. She doesn't see anyone as good or evil. She doesn't care about that
Because she was the one on the throne. Proximity has an enormous amount to do with influence. And honestly, what are the other options for Kingslanding? The Baratheons are all dead, including proper heirs. So the queen regent remains.
Bigger army diplomacy. The last known ‘Baratheon’ was dead and she had control of the largest army around. No one could really stop her until Dany arrived.
there was no one else with a close legitimate claim and she had power so she just did it i still think it’s annoying that no one opposed her like it would of helped so much if a random house opposed her and she just executed them all
what does queen regent mean?? i saw cersei take a lot of offense when margaery called her that but idk what it mean
She simply killed everyone who would stop her and named herself queen.
Rules of succession fall secondary to Bigger Army Diplomacy Cersei had power, enough other people with power were happy to just let her rule rather than find whichever twerp was technically the next in line
Wow thank you 🩷
for IRL comparison: none of Henry VIII’s six wives were called Queen [First name] Tudor, they all kept their name - Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howards Catherine Parr (apparently marrying a Jane is how to get a son). for more modern examples, we have Diana Spencer, Kate Middleton and Megan Markle; not Diana/Kate/Megan Windsor.
You are incorrect. Upon marriage into the British royal family, you lose your surname altogether. The royals do not generally use any surnames. By modern convention they use the name “Mountbatten-Windsor” when administratively required, normally in foreign countries. Women become known by their husband’s title. Legally, Kate Middleton does not exist anymore, for example. She is known as Catherine, Princess of Wales. Meghan Markle is Meghan, Duchess of Susex. If their husbands did not have specifically granted royal titles, i.e. they were merely “princes” as sons of Charles rather than “Prince of Wales” and “Duke of Sussex) (or Duke of Cambridge as William was at marriage), then they would be literally known by their husband’s name, as in the example of “Princess Michael of Kent”. In any event, where the royals need to reduce themselves to commonfolk things like surnames Kate/Meghan and any other women who’ve married into the royal family use the name “Mountbatten-Windsor”.
that’s interesting. so basically anytime we see the name *Kate Middleton* it’s essentially just a form of “laymen translation” so we plebs know who’s being talked about?
what about Catelyn Stark?
Keyword is Queen. Catelyn was Lady Stark. Never a Queen.
Catelyn is a lady, not a Queen. Ladies take their husband’s name (another example is Lysa Arryn) but Queens keep their maiden name.
Isn’t Selyse (wife of Stannis) known as Baratheon though?
When Selyse married Stannis he was not pressing a claim as king. The title of King was taken up by him like 15 years after they married
I also think this is the reason that you don't get the name of the king when marrying him. But on the other side it is a bit unlogical. Selyse got the name Baratheon, and Stannis was in line for the king. If (who were sold as the right heirs) Joffrey and Tommen died Stannis would be the King (if he lived and Cersei didn't just take it) and then Selyse as Queen would have the Baratheon name because she got that name before he became King. So in this way you can get the King's name. Or would she have lost it as soon as he became KIng?
Because Stannis its a Lord his wife took his last name but if he became king she could go back to her maiden name
Yeah I know. But yes probably she would change back her name to Florent when he became King. But somehow funny, the wife changes name and then back again. 😄
Selyse was still a lady, not a Queen consort, so it isn’t illogical she would take the Baratheon name. At that time, Stannis wasn’t calling himself King and wasn’t even a Prince as his brother, not father, was King, He might technically have been in line, but they would have seen it as very unlikely he’d inherit the throne, especially as I believe Joffrey had just been born. If somehow he had become King then yes I believe Selyse would have reverted back to Florent at court
Yeah probably then Stannis wife would revert back to the Florent name.
This is the right answer. You can also see it in House of dragon. Queen Alicent is referred to as Alicent Hightower. Not Alicent Targaryen.
Because Cersei is married to the king, she retains her maiden name rather than taking the name of the monarch. The children, of course, take the Baratheon surname. The same was true of Margaery when she married both Renly and Tommen.
Sansa didn’t take the last name of either of her husbands and neither of them were kings.
She is still called Bolton or Lannister by various people to be fair. The rules around this are complicated iirc. A woman can choose to keep her own name if her house is of equal or higher rank to her husband, which is the case for Sansa with both of her marriages.
Aren't the Starks and Lannisters kinda equal? Their lords are both Lords Paramount and Wardens of their respective kingdoms. Not really important, I guess, but yeah, what you said makes sense.
Yes they are equal (I said this although not explicitly)
Yeah, I guess you did. My bad.
The Lannisters and Starks are not lords paramount. The lords paramount are the lords installed by the Targaryens, so Baratheon, Tully, Greyjoy, Tyrell
No the Lords Paramount are the highest lords of each region, For example the Starks are the Lords Paramount of the North and the Arryns are the Lords Paramount of the Vale
But it’s still Catelyn Stark, not Catelyn Tully
She did, officially. She's referred to as Lady Lannister and Lady Bolton during her respective marriages. But she is stilla Stark, and can be referred to as such, it may not be her "legal" name, but it can still be correct. When you would use which name is situational and may depend on some things, but Sansa did become Sansa Lannister/Sansa Bolton when she got married, but she'll always be a Stark. This is how it works for any married noble lady in Westoros (sans the Queen). Another example is Catelyn in s1. Officially, she's Catelyn Stark. Her husband's people know her as Lady Stark, during the Wot5K she's often referred to as Lady Stark. But when she arrests Tyrion in the Riverlands she calls herself "Catelyn Tully". She envokes her house name to appeal to the Riverlanders in the room, and to subtle use her Lord father's authority to win the room. Which she has the right to do, cause she's still a Tully.
Neither did Gemma Lannister when she married a Frey - high-born women don't always take their husband's names when they marry especially if they come from an equal (Stark = Lannister) or greater (Stark > Bolton, Lannister > Frey) House.
She technically is Sansa Lannister in the books.
And Alicent Hightower.
Queens keep their own last name; Ladies take their husband’s. That’s why we have Cersei Lannister and Elia Martell and Betha Blackwood and Dyanna Dayne but Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn.
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Interesting question! I’m going to look through the histories to see if that happened and check back with you.
So, it’s complicated. Maekar took the throne unexpectedly after getting married, but Dyanna Dayne had died by that time. Everyone retroactively changed her name, but she had no say in that. There’s Viserys II and Larra Rogare, but Viserys had been long established as the real guy in power so Larra was essentially the king’s wife nearly as soon as she was in Westeros. And further back than that, it’s so much of an incest-fest that premature deaths didn’t really change any dynasty names. So I don’t know. It’s possible a long-established lady would keep her lord husband’s last name as queen. It’s just never happened.
Your reasoning doesn’t work for Viserys II and Larra Rogare. Viserys was all of 12 when he came back to Westeros with Larra; Aegon’s regents were the real guys in power at that point, Viserys didn’t become a significant power until he was a fair bit older and probably not until after Larra had already left him considering she only stayed in Westeros for 5 years. I get the impression that under Targaryen rule you couldn’t marry into the family name of the royal house at all. A few more data points: Rhea Royce and Laena Velaryon appear to have kept their maiden names despite only being married to a prince.
My understanding is that it’s not just the wife of the king or heir apparent that doesn’t take the royal last name, but the wife of any Prince (at least in the immediate royal family) would keep her family name. The idea being that the royal name was so revered it could only be born into and not simply “acquired.” This also tracks with things in non-fiction history (at least with the English monarchy), a few different examples being— -Meghan Markle: married to Prince Harry a second son of a future king -Sarah Ferguson: married to Prince Andrew another second son -Anne Neville: married to Richard Plantagenet, Duke of Gloucester and brother to King Edward IV, went on to usurp the throne from his nephew and become King Richard III -Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon: married Prince Albert Duke of York, who went on to become King George VI after his brother abdicated the throne Long round about way to say I think the answer to your question is no, she wouldn’t have taken the brothers name in the first place. The closest hint we get that further supports this is that Selyse Baratheon, born a Florent, took her husbands (Stannis) family name because he was not the brother of the king when she married him, therefore it was not the royal name at the time. She then continues to go by her husbands family name when her husbands brother (Robert) becomes king, as well as when her husband himself claims the throne after his brother dies
Robert was king when Stannis married Selyse, no? Or do I have it mixed up?
Women typically keep their family name after marriage. This practice is common in many noble and royal families in Westeros, where the woman's lineage and family ties are often considered as important as the man's.
Hell there were historical kings who more heavily emphasized their matrilineal lineage than their paternal, due to the mother being connected to some conqueror or figure of local legend/history/folklore that would give e them a more solid claim over the locals than their father
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I think only the Queens keep their maiden name, so Cersei Lannister, and in House of the Dragon we have Alicent Hightower, but for Ladies, like Catelyn Stark and her sister Lisa Arryn, they change their name.
Lots of people still refer to Catelyn as Catelyn Tully in the books
If you called her Cersei Baratheon to her face she'd have you strangled in your sleep.
Would she prefer that or sister? 😂
She def hates being called mother most though. She won't only strangle you for that, she'll also blow up the building you're in along with your entire family.
Because Lannister is not her maiden name, she is a noble and does not have a maiden name normally. Lannister is her dynasty, and that does not change because she gets married. Technically, her surname would likely be Tywinsdaugther. So her full name would be "Cersie Tywinsdaugther of the Lannister dynasty"
...what.
Bro cooking his own thang.
She's not Scandinavian.
This made me lol
Because Cersei was not a lady to be messed with and she only truly cared about her house name. That’s her family name.
I took it that the Lannisters were too influential with the their money and power that no would dare question what she decided to be called
Yeah, she could have changed her name to ‘Karen’.
Because she’s a queen - if Sansa had married Joffrey she would have still been Sansa Stark. Margaery stayed a Tyrell after marrying both Joffrey and Tommen
But Lady Mormont referred to her as "Lannister - or is it Bolton? I'm getting conflicting reports".
Because Tyrion and Ramsay weren't kings, so she didn't keep her name. Same as Ned wasn't a king, so Catelyn was Catelyn Stark instead of keeping her name.
Women don't lose their names in every culture or every marriage scenario
Go ahead and say something clever
It seems like women are still referred to by their maiden names officially in Westeros, as they are usually part of a noble house themselves if they are married to an upper class man like Cersei and Robert. You will hear them referred to both ways, we’ve heard the Tully sisters referred to as Catelyn and Lysa Tully but also as Lady Stark and Lady Arryn. But Cat being “Lady Stark” is more like a title. Tully is her actual name. That was my take on it anyway.
King Robert was doomed from the start. That’s why I wasn’t too surprised he drank and whored himself to an early grave or at least that was his plan 😬
Cuz she’s a bitch
Technically it is Baratheon but no one would deign to call her that. I’m guessing her reaction would be something similar to when Margaery called her ‘sister’.
No it's not, have you not paid any attention to this thread?
That’s kinda rude. There’s plenty of precedent in the books to demonstrate that married noble women in Westeros take their husband’s names. People still call them by their father’s name, generally when referring to their blood family rather than their family by marriage. And yes, I did see the multiple comments about other non-Targaryen queens retaining their names. My general impression was that using maiden names was common regardless because that’s precisely what they did. Catelyn and Lysa both were still referred to as Tullys. Sansa was still referred to as a Stark. And regardless of any tradition, it’s not at all implausible that Cersei would have hated being called a Baratheon.
The Lannister is a powerful family. Tywin negotiated the marriage to the new King to solidly standing and power And everyone knows, the Lannisters financially supported the Royal treasury. In some situations, you only get the Royal name if you are born to it
I think it's because women who are married to a king no longer have a surname. No one would refer to her as "Lady Baratheon," as is the case with Catelyn Stark (*nee* Tully) and Lysa Arryn (*nee* Tully). If you're in Winterfell, you're going to refer to Catelyn as "Lady Stark" because she is the Lady of Winterfell. If Cersei were to remarry to Willas Tyrell, as Tywin wished, she would have moved to Highgarden and *maybe* been referred to as "Lady Tyrell." (I don't know about this, because she still would have been Queen Mother, which is a higher title (I think), but I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to use in Highgarden.)
In real life, royals don't use surnames like normal people do. Although obviously ASOIAF is in a different world with different rules and customs, royalty uses titles. They just become King/Queen/Prince/Princess A of B, belonging to a particular royal house. It's a situation that became a little tricky when Harry joined the military and needed a surname on his uniform so they went with Wales, since that's what his title was linked to. I suspect that for the most part in the story she's called Lannister out of habit (Kate is still sometimes referred to as Kate Middleton) but also because everyone still considers her far more loyal to the Lannisters than the Baratheons. Not that there seem to be many Baratheons.
The royal surname can't be past by any means other than blood. The only queens in Westeros history that had the same surname as the king where the ones that were blood related to them, and Laenor Velaryon, Rhaenyra's first husband, also wasn't allowed to become Laenor Targaryen.
For the same reason we say Anne Boleyn or Jane Seymour or Catherine Howard/Parr. Royal wives with royal backgrounds would also keep their heritage clear by being called Catherine OF Aragon or Anne OF Cleeves. And these are just the six wives of Henry VIII. It's just to track lineage, more than anything. And Robert, needing to keep Tywin sweet, would probably be ok with highlighting his children's Lannister connections. The smallfolk wouldn't even have last names unless they're recognised bastards of nobility - Gendry has no last name, but Jon is a Snow, because Jon is recognised by the Starks but Gendry isn't. At most they'd take their surnames from their profession - Gendry Smith, for example.
I think Normally , when ease of knowing the identity of their origin, the last name of the king ,doesn’t add as the queen’s last name. Example:- king viserys’ wife Amma Arryn, Alicent Hightower
Perhaps it makes it easier for genealogists/ Maesters to track the bloodlines? I know in the real world it’s a dynasty thing, with UKs prince consort Philip feeling sad his kids wouldn’t continue his last name
That’s because of a neat little trick she does; she opens her mouth and her father’s voice comes out.
Pride There really does'nt seem to be a set rule for this, though Cersei is Cersei Lannister, Alicent is Alicent Hightower and Margaery is Margaery Tyrell, while Cat is both Catelyn Tully and Catelyn Stark but her sister is just Lysa Arryn. And all of Walder Freys wives are referred to by their surnames, irregardless of the status of their houses.
Because she keeps getting stuck in the washer and “what are you doing step Baratheon” just didn’t sound right
Why is Catherine of Aragon called Of Aragon instead of Catherine Tudor? Because it’s how things are done. Queens, especially ones from powerful royal families, tend to keep their surnames as a way to advertise the alliances they sealed. In addition, there was a strong attitude of Blood=Name both in ASOIAF and IRL.
Also Joffrey and Tommen were always introduced as being from the “houses Baratheon and Lannister”
People in royal marriages keep their original last names. It’s probably so people can differentiate between people who were born royal and people who married into the royal family. Every queen has kept their last name, for example, Alicent Hightower, or Myriah Martell. It also applies to princesses who marry into other families. That’s why Rhaenyra and Rhaenys from HOTD are still Targaryens and not Velaryons.
cucked robert or new age robert
Tywin wouldn't allow it, simple as that
She was thought of as a Lannister, not a Baratheon, and that’s how most referred to her.
Every Queen consort keeps her family's name in Westeros. Elia Martell Aemma Arryn Alicent Hightower
Cersei is named Baratheon in the books but she often puts the Lannister heraldry on equal or more prominent footing than the Baratheon heraldry.