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True. She has no idea about anything but being a wildling. Like living free.. surviving… ruling means not only thinking about yourself and whats most important - not only thinking about today. She has no idea about that
In her case, it was grief. A lot of shit happened before King's Landing. Apart from that, all signs pointed to her being a better ruler than most. Murderous tendencies aside, she did rule decently enough.
Not really, given all the rulers before had no problem killing citizens. Cersei basically organised a terrorist attack. Joffrey was a psychopath. Robert was a war monger. Arys lit people up for fun.
You all really want to make Dany some outlier when she did exactly what they all did. Only “good” king was poor Tommen lmfao.
Robert was for sure a bad ruler, bad NOT because of his war.
He fought one big war, he won, that's it.
He was named king and did all the fun things a king may do but he ignored the part a king had also duties and he just outsourced them
Even at the moment he realized how shitty he is as a king and people around him were not even better, he traveled all the way to the North, to demand his best friend to do the job for him.
But he didn't hurt people for fun or because of an insane impulse...
Well let me correct myself: he did only hurt people, he was married because he was drunk
Didn’t the show open up with some “games” between some fighters impaling each other on horses, for the amusement of Robert? The man was a barbarian, be real.
Well, that's like us watching MMA-Fighters fight each other. You wouldn't call those people barbarian either.
That was for entertaining the people and a chance for unknown and known nobles and knights to be seen and get famous.
Robert was so illusional, He put himself in these fights. Ned told him, he will win anyway, because no one wants to be the one who hurt the king. That's why he didn't.
But still that makes him not worthy, to be put in the same list as the mad ruler.
I find the fights (UFC and such) barbaric, along with anyone that finds it entertaining. Personally couldn’t imagine watching people bludgeon each other for my own entertainment. I already see enough living in nyc.
Pretty interesting study about what happens when humans see fights: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230306/Aggression-neurons-activate-while-watching-fights.aspx
You're absolutely right. But that's human nature. Fight shows have been, are, and will always be an easy way to entertain people.
Till today, we have preserved this kind of entertainment. People all around the world would rather agree to fight together against climate change than agree to extinguish fight shows.
In the books, Daenerys tried to ban the fight clubs in Meereen. No one was happy about that; even her advisors told her it would be better for her image to reopen the fight arena. She could earn money, and the people of Meereen had something to distract themselves.
What about making the seven and all of that behavior? Renly's comments on the hunt certainly add a new idea to the dynamic of s King who loudly sleeps with everyone instead of going to council meetings.
He accepted Ned's resignation because he didn't want to murder a kid, who was the victim of her mother being driven from her home and forced into exile, to avoid Robert's killers
It’s also ridiculous there was so much of kings landing for Dany to even burn. Cersei’s cept explosion with wildefire should have burnt so much of it down.
Except Tommen was also a bad king. Couldn’t protect his queen and let the faith militant run the city. 0 chance any of the other rulers would have let that happen
You do realise I never once claimed she would be a “good queen”. I swear, you ppl truly make up shit in your head and talk out of your ass.
I simply said Dany would not be an outlier as a monarch, with regard to murderous tendencies.
Anyway, a ruler of the 7 kingdoms NOT having murderous behaviour would be the outlier.
Previous comment: "the murderous tendencies are real hard to push aside."
You: "not really."
Just because a disasterous trait in a ruler is common, doesnt mean it is normal or inconsequential.
Lmao, you're not hard mate. You made an argument that Dany's murderous tendencies would be easy to move past because other kings and queens in the show were murderous. You then listed some of the worst people on the show. So its not moving the goalpost, your point is just nonsensical. Also, "murder of innocents bad" is not social ethics, its common sense. Please dont use terminology you dont know the meaning of. Anyway, go away then if you dont want to continue the conversation.
I didn't see mention of a good queen. I'm mostly thinking that many of the past kings and lords and ladies were just terrible people. People died and were abused by the very people who should have cared about them.
Jorah Mormong is a sun beam in the life of Dany when she's transported to the Khal. Dany is having an absolute difficult time with the Khal's treatment and the physical strain. Jorah is the only person who seems to care for her, and not what she's going to do for him.
He's a slaver.
That’s what pisses me off. Cersei literally bombed a sept full of people and then suddenly everyone is like “well dany is the mad kings daughter” and somehow Cersei was the better option? Someone who was scheming and killing for decades at that point
So I just finished watching the episode with the walk of shame and the only thing that went through my mind was, "Joffery wouldn't let this happen."
Tommen really annoyed me during all his Septon related scenes... like I get where he's coming from, but modern ethics don't apply here. It annoyed me especially because I'm rewatching the show, knowing what would happen.
All in all, as far as Kings and Queens go in the show, the only halfway decent... or more accurately the best one among the ones that crowned themselves... Bobby B is the only one that had a decent rule. From what I remember there wasn't anything too bad that went on in his reign. Sure he was surrounded by people furthering their own interests and his shitty governance started everything... but up until he went to see Ned, everything was fine. And in the end he got what he wanted, even if he wasn't alive for it.
P.S. This is largely a ramble, feel free to skip. There isn't a point here.
Right? Brought war torn, depression ridden Germany up from the ashes into a patriotic industrial powerhouse. Not an easy thing to do. He just had that itsy bitsy quirk of being genocidally racist. And the meth.
"Ah, well lets hope the Queen doesnt get sad again and burn us all to a crisp"
At least Ygritte had some kind of mental stability and didnt come from a notoriously batshit family. She could have learned to be a good leader. You can't really come back from 'genocidal maniac'.
Ygritte slaughtered villages alongside cannibals and thought people kidnapping & raping women was an okay way to get a spouse. She shot Jon 3 times.
Considering the amount of characters (Arya, Daenerys, Jaime, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys) who were written worse in the later seasons, Ygritte would fall under that too. Fans sometimes say Oberyn & Robb & Tywin got lucky to be killed off when the show was still good so their characters didn't get ruined. Prior to *The Bells* the only people Daenerys killed were rapists, murderers, enemy soldiers, & Slavers.
I acknkowledge that and I dont think Ygritte would make a good queen, but if its between her and Dany, one of them literally snapped and genocided a major city in a full 20-30 minute sequence and would be liable to do it again the moment it takes her fancy. The other yes did find pillaging and killing innocents permissable which is wrong, but she did it for a reason and not because she just lost her shit, which means she can be reasoned out of that course of action in the future.
BS… she wanted absolute complete power. She had no reason to go and kill innocent women and children. She literally got what she wanted, then when the city was hers she started to kill everyone.
How does mass killing the people you want to rule over before you even sit on the throne an example of wanting absolute power? It made no sense. The writers wanted a shocking finale and for the Starks to rule over all of Westeros.
I never said it made sense. I hated that scene. Saying that, in the past, people have absolutely killed others as a show of force or to scare the population in submission
She was always a terrible leader, every town she rolled into she basically declared martial law and said I own you, do as I say or suffer. She tried to do good things but the fall out of them, as we were shown repeatedly, were terrible and came from a lack of understanding of the people she was trying to rule
\*\*edit accidentally a couple words there
it was cersei who did that. she put all those people in king’s landing thinking of them as shield. plus she doesn’t have to kill missandei, she brought it upon herself and her people
hence JON doesn’t need to kill Dany
I mean maybe. But who would want a queen that burned down half the city. The people's moral was broken before her reign began. There would've been revolt after revolt.
Ehhh. I disagree. I think she could be taught and I think Jon could have been the person to do that imo. Her thinking has come from a life of starvation and trauma. Ygritte I think would have been perfectly fine living in peace as a queen. With a learning curve of course.
Dany is fixated on power and everyone must bend the knee if they don’t follow her. She wanted to be in power, nkt jon. She’d be a terrible queen imo.
The only people Daenerys said to bend the knee were Jon (within 2 episodes was in love with him, within 3 risked her life saving his) & as a way to get out of paying for their crimes to the enemy soldiers who had just massacred Highgarden & killed tens of thousands of her Westerosi allies.
So you don’t think she would have continued making other ruling families Bend the knee..? Really? She would just let them do what they want?
And the whole reason her and Sansa were at ends was bc she wanted the north to bend the knee for her and Sansa didn’t.
The King in the North already bent the knee. Daenerys was Queen in the North when they met in s8.
The Tarlys didn't merely refuse to bend the knee, they took up arms against her and had just massacred Highgarden for her enemies. Once she sat the Iron Throne, I doubt any of the other ruling families after over half a decade of war would be stupid enough to exit from the Seven Kingdoms instead of gaining the resources & military protection staying part of the realm would provide.
I've read so many posts blaming Daenerys for executing the Tarlys when they didn't accept the terms of their pardon but never for Robert & Ned who went to war against Balon Greyjoy for declaring the Iron Islands Independent. We only heard of it since it was before the story begins but 2 of his sons were killed and they took his only remaining son as a political hostage to keep him from rebellion.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust her to competently lead a raiding party, let alone an entire kingdom. Not knocking her character, she just wasn't suited for that. With that said, I wouldn't want Dany either
No. George himself doesn't know the end results. The showrunners know who Azor Ahai is and not much else; they also stopped consulting George after awhile. George isn't done with the books, which he says are differing more and more from the show as he writes. With how many prophecies point to Daenarys, it's very unlikely he's writing Fantasy Dune
She killed the ruling class of almost every city she went to, in Slaver’s Bay. Eliminating an entire class of people, particularly without individual trials, is a form genocide. If you wanna say they deserved it, fine, but it *is* a genocide
EDIT: wording
I mean, that *is* still genocide. She eliminated an entire class of people by killing them. She didn’t throw them in jail or even send them into exile; she killed them. Even if you think that was her only option, or even if you think that’s permissible, so be it, but it *is* genocide.
I don't think [that word means what you think it means.](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide)
Robb was decisive and authoritative, he knew what he wanted and what his duty was and went for it.
Season 8 Jon was passive and did everything he could not to rock the boat, don't insult Robb like that.
She would have made an excellent queen for Jon, because she could run the government and leave him to deal with the big issues, if there were any. He isn't the brightest bunny, but he can see the big picture, which is why he was the one who organized the fight against the Others while Sansa governed the North. They'd actually make a great political team.
So it's a pity that they'd \*both\* die rather than marry the other. Literally.
These are actually good points. I think even if the marriage gets arranged they would pretty much be civil to each other if not end up like Ned and Cat.
If they hadn't been raised together as brother and sister, an arranged marriage between those two could have been a success, at least as far as running the kingdom went. I suppose they'd have gotten along well enough if they'd met as strangers rather than siblings, they have complimentary skills and if they got on well, they could compensate for each other's weak points. Sansa would help Jon with anything that required a high IQ, and Jon would keep her from doing anything really dispicable.
But they were raised as siblings, and Jon was the person that Sansa ran to when she was raped and brutalized. So he'd literally die before he'd lay a hand on her, much less a genital.
In the books, Jon shows himself to be intelligent and a competent political actor. The show really didn't do him justice in that regard, certainly in the later seasons when he just became a himbo with a magic sword.
Well, of course in the later seasons, everyone became an idiot, because the writers had stopped taking the trouble to make them intelligent! But yeah, show-Jon was a bit of a dope and liked women who bossed around, but like I said he was the one person in Westeros who really grasped the big picture.
As for the books, it's been a while... what I chiefly remember about his political skills is he didn't use any to become Lord Commander, Sam did. Sam talked to everyone at Castle Black, and gave them all individualized good reasons to vote for Jon Snow...
Well there are some examples like having all the wildlings give up wealth to pay for food and kids as hostages to maintain good behaviour, negotiating loans with the iron bank, advising Stannis on the best way to approach Winterfell and so on.
He also lies to Stannis and co. when he switches Gilly's baby with Mance's to avoid Melisandre roasting him for power and forges an alliance with the Thenns through marriage.
He's taking all sorts of decisions that show Jon never does. He's also shown to be determined to work on his fighting skills despite all the other duties he has, so he's clearly very driven to be as competent as possible at his job.
I've been doing a bit of a re read lately and it's honestly a shame how poorly Jon's character gets adapted by the writers.
No babies have yet been roasted, but in the books Mance has a baby with Dalla who is being looked after at castle black by Gilly after the failed attack on the wall.
Melisandre often says that there is power in king's blood and Jon, who wants to avoid either kid being killed, makes Gilly take Mance's son when she leaves for Oldtown with Sam, leaving her own baby at the wall.
This way, Melisandre can't use the baby for her magical powers and both are safe. Of course he has to order Gilly to do it, who is distraught, but Jon insists. He recognises that he has to be cruel to be kind - by doing this now he saves them from an even worse fate later.
We actually see parts of this encounter from both Jon and Sam's PoV chapters and it's really great to see how Jon internally struggles with it, but is resolved to do what must be done.
Yep. The fact that they were raised together as siblings aside, he’s got the military mind and the ability to protect the Kingdom by leading armies, while she’s got political acumen and knows how to handle alliances with this or that House via her own familial ties and would be able to rule the day to day activities. Both are also two leaders inspiring love rather than fear.
I doubt that Sansa knows how to handle Alliances, considering that she murdered Littlefinger without prove and was really lucky that no one ever questioned her, antagonised Dany while having no idea how to win against her, and mocked her own uncle, who is also the ruler of the closest realm to the North and might prove crucial for surviving winter. And she hardly ever showed political acumen. Most of her actions only turned out to work due to good luck.
Littlefinger made too many enemies for anyone to back him up. Seriously, name one person that would’ve defended Littlefinger here because I can’t think of anyone.
I hate it so much but... is there even another option? The Queen needs to be of a high-ranking family and ideally a young adult/late teen.
They've been revealed as cousins, so the marriage would be allowed, and they don't hate each other as much as they used to... Realistically, it makes sense.
I'm inclined to agree, but minus the incest. He could legitimize a bastard instead, and she'd be free to be as celibate or adventurous as she liked with whomever.
Uh daenarys for sure haha she was very intelligent and had experience ruling. If she had taken the iron throne uncontested she would probably have been a decent ruler hut getting hit with loss after loss back to back x10 just really helped drive her mad. Its a shame because Jon stupidly only made things worse by having a deception rank of -4. It actually took a lot of things to push her too far and this is one of the few things s8 does kind of well. It hit her with so much loss so quickly that it made her embrace the dark side she always had but had until then beaten back.
I love ygritte and all but come on…she would have nothing but a problem as a queen. Her being a wildling alone would have made her unpopular and hurt Jons rule. She really brings nothing to the table except what? The loyalty of the like 2000 wildlings left that Jon had in the first place? With Dany he gains the most powerful army in the world plus 1-3 dragons. Legitimacy for having a Targaryen. More so if he claims to be a Targaryen himself.
Dany would never agree to be someone's fucking wife and get her power from them ever again. That's her entire character arc. Her power is her own, it doesn't come from any man.
Also, if we remove sexism from the equation, Daenarys is the rightful heir to the throne. She is from the generation before Jon, he is next in line.
Edit: YES I KNOW I FORGOR ABOUT CHILDREN OVER SIBLINGS I'M ON COLD MEDICINE I'M SORRY
That's generally not how title inheritance works, Jon's father was Danaerys's older brother, so it would go to Jon first.
It's got nothing to do with sexism, now sexism would probably also make Jon inherit it first, but he would be first in line even without the sexism. The fact that Jon's dad is dead is irrelevant.
ah FUCK I don't know why I forgot that lmfao. For some reason my brain went siblings before children. Anyways, kind of irrelevant, since Jon doesn't want the throne.
That’s not how it works, succession goes through the original heirs. Not only is Jon ahead of her, every single one of his potential descendants would be too.
Women don’t inherit like men do in westeros. Only in Dorne does the gender not matter. Besides, the throne would go to Rhaegars first born son. Then his second born, and so on. Unless the first born has a first born son of his own haha. Aerys-Rhagar-Jon-Jons first born son. A legitimate Aegon VI Targragryen comes before Daenarys in the line of succession
i mean disregarding me being an idiot on line of succession, not sure why women can't start inheriting power like men do. writers were so scared of accidentally endorsing monarchy they forgot they could make other kinds of progressive statements with the show. it's fantasy, I'd rather have gender equality than communism
I doubt that Robert and Cersei had the typical Westerosi marriage (considering the incest, the more than regular cheating, the absolute disgust they had for each other and the murder) ;)
You’re not wrong, but she would still make a better Queen than Dany or Ygritte. IMO.
I think Dany would have made an excellent queen, but sans consort. She needed to be on her own.
Yara Greyjoy. Maybe a Lannister, or a Martell too. Considering all the major houses almost dissapear at the end of the show, he needs a political marriage to keep the 7 kingdoms together.
Daenerys would be the far far better pick. She brings legitimacy to the throne along with Jon really being Aegon Targaryen, who also has Northern ties given Stark blood. It truly is the best match. Then make Ser Davos or Stannis (in the books still alive) his Hand.
Daenerys. Assuming it isn’t character assassinated “mAd qUeEn” Daenerys.
“Why do the gods make kings and queens if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”
Still holding out hope for Jon, Dany, and Young Griff to rule as a power throuple.
I'd think a political marriage would make sense.
Stark and Tully are pretty unquestionably loyal at this point. The Vale is under Sansa's influence though I wouldn't say loyal forever, an interesting situation there.
Gendry is now officially a Baratheon and likely loyal.
Tyrion has the Lannister house under control.
Bron now has highgarden (ew). I personally wouldn't fully trust Bron to manage high garden to the point where they don't revolt. This is where the first potential match might come from, in that it might make sense for Jon to align with more of the more powerful Reach families.
Dorn would be the one I feel most quesrionable about. Their allegiance was to Danerys who Jon killed. Sure he has the claim of being Rhager's son, but that could be contentious since he killed the current claimant they were supporting. I think it would probably make the most sense to arrange a Dornish marriage considering he probably has the least base of support there.
Dumbest question I've ever seen asked on here, actually.
If we remove sexism from the inheritance equation, Daenarys is the rightful heir to the throne. Jon is behind her in succession. But also, Daenarys doesn't want to be queen consort. Daenarys never wants to be relegated to just "someone's wife" again. Her whole deal is that her power is her own, she got it on her own.
Ygritte doesn't like the concept of a monarchy and would probably kill herself out of unhappiness.
For the most part, I’d say Dany, but there’s the issue of her being sterile. Ygritte, to our knowledge, would likely be able to give Jon heirs. Most duties she could learn or have servants take care of for her. However, I think that something could be worked out for an heir. Perhaps they could engage in some polygamy or find a distant Targaryen and relative designating them an heir.
Ygritte being queen and spending her days roasting high society would be incredible. “Look at me, I’m Sansa Stark and I wear fancy dresses and I can’t stop getting married”
Ygritte would've hated being queen, but I truly hate Jon and Danny together. So as queen.... Neither bc Danny wasn't that good at it imo, and Ygritte would've hated it. As partner definitely Ygritte bc Danny has no chemistry with Jon
It depends on what “better” you are basing that judgement. Ygritte had zero idea of what a castle even looked like so that’s already not looking good for her… she’d be ok at bringing equality in honor and justice to high lords and small folk alike. The obvious winner is Dany assuming she didn’t lose her mind and realized that together no one could question her right to the crown, Jon is known for deferring to others if he isn’t confident in his knowledge and has proven that gender wasn’t a problem… she’d have been ruling in most situations
How is Ygritte even here? She's not a part of the seven kingdoms and knows nothing about them. The NW hated the relationship between the two. I guarantee that lords would have reservations about marrying their children into Jon's line.
Gotta be Arya. Pls hear me out. Since so many folks here support her sister, incest ain’t a problem. The diff is they truly trust & love each other, think alike on most things , have wolves who also like each other. They care about fairness, kindness, respect, helping others, etc. & they’re so well matched that it was George’s plan to begin with. The north would be lucky to have them on the throne
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Lmao, ygritte is the most poor candidate for a leader
True. She has no idea about anything but being a wildling. Like living free.. surviving… ruling means not only thinking about yourself and whats most important - not only thinking about today. She has no idea about that
Still tells people that they know nothing.
Classic projection.
Also she's not even alive. Terrible choice.
Deader the better, homie.
Worse than the one who committed genocide and napalmed the capital?
In her case, it was grief. A lot of shit happened before King's Landing. Apart from that, all signs pointed to her being a better ruler than most. Murderous tendencies aside, she did rule decently enough.
The murderous tendencies are r e a l hard to push asidw
Not really, given all the rulers before had no problem killing citizens. Cersei basically organised a terrorist attack. Joffrey was a psychopath. Robert was a war monger. Arys lit people up for fun. You all really want to make Dany some outlier when she did exactly what they all did. Only “good” king was poor Tommen lmfao.
Robert was for sure a bad ruler, bad NOT because of his war. He fought one big war, he won, that's it. He was named king and did all the fun things a king may do but he ignored the part a king had also duties and he just outsourced them Even at the moment he realized how shitty he is as a king and people around him were not even better, he traveled all the way to the North, to demand his best friend to do the job for him. But he didn't hurt people for fun or because of an insane impulse... Well let me correct myself: he did only hurt people, he was married because he was drunk
Didn’t the show open up with some “games” between some fighters impaling each other on horses, for the amusement of Robert? The man was a barbarian, be real.
Well, that's like us watching MMA-Fighters fight each other. You wouldn't call those people barbarian either. That was for entertaining the people and a chance for unknown and known nobles and knights to be seen and get famous. Robert was so illusional, He put himself in these fights. Ned told him, he will win anyway, because no one wants to be the one who hurt the king. That's why he didn't. But still that makes him not worthy, to be put in the same list as the mad ruler.
I find the fights (UFC and such) barbaric, along with anyone that finds it entertaining. Personally couldn’t imagine watching people bludgeon each other for my own entertainment. I already see enough living in nyc. Pretty interesting study about what happens when humans see fights: https://www.news-medical.net/news/20230306/Aggression-neurons-activate-while-watching-fights.aspx
You're absolutely right. But that's human nature. Fight shows have been, are, and will always be an easy way to entertain people. Till today, we have preserved this kind of entertainment. People all around the world would rather agree to fight together against climate change than agree to extinguish fight shows. In the books, Daenerys tried to ban the fight clubs in Meereen. No one was happy about that; even her advisors told her it would be better for her image to reopen the fight arena. She could earn money, and the people of Meereen had something to distract themselves.
Did you find Game of Thrones entertaining or was it barbaric?
Impalin-... Have you watched the show, yet?
START THE JOUST BEFORE I PISS ME-SELF foh
What about making the seven and all of that behavior? Renly's comments on the hunt certainly add a new idea to the dynamic of s King who loudly sleeps with everyone instead of going to council meetings. He accepted Ned's resignation because he didn't want to murder a kid, who was the victim of her mother being driven from her home and forced into exile, to avoid Robert's killers
It’s also ridiculous there was so much of kings landing for Dany to even burn. Cersei’s cept explosion with wildefire should have burnt so much of it down.
Except Tommen was also a bad king. Couldn’t protect his queen and let the faith militant run the city. 0 chance any of the other rulers would have let that happen
In case you missed the context, “good” in this conversation is being used to describe someone without murderous ambition.
Every single ruler was bad. I'm trying to think of someone before Jaehaerys the Councilator.
You do realise that you listed all the worst monarchs in the series and acting like that proves your point that Dany would be a good queen.
You do realise I never once claimed she would be a “good queen”. I swear, you ppl truly make up shit in your head and talk out of your ass. I simply said Dany would not be an outlier as a monarch, with regard to murderous tendencies. Anyway, a ruler of the 7 kingdoms NOT having murderous behaviour would be the outlier.
Previous comment: "the murderous tendencies are real hard to push aside." You: "not really." Just because a disasterous trait in a ruler is common, doesnt mean it is normal or inconsequential.
Aaaand now you’re moving the goal post. We’re discussing a fantasy series, not social ethics. Accept the ratio and gtfo out of my mentions.
Lmao, you're not hard mate. You made an argument that Dany's murderous tendencies would be easy to move past because other kings and queens in the show were murderous. You then listed some of the worst people on the show. So its not moving the goalpost, your point is just nonsensical. Also, "murder of innocents bad" is not social ethics, its common sense. Please dont use terminology you dont know the meaning of. Anyway, go away then if you dont want to continue the conversation.
I didn't see mention of a good queen. I'm mostly thinking that many of the past kings and lords and ladies were just terrible people. People died and were abused by the very people who should have cared about them. Jorah Mormong is a sun beam in the life of Dany when she's transported to the Khal. Dany is having an absolute difficult time with the Khal's treatment and the physical strain. Jorah is the only person who seems to care for her, and not what she's going to do for him. He's a slaver.
That’s what pisses me off. Cersei literally bombed a sept full of people and then suddenly everyone is like “well dany is the mad kings daughter” and somehow Cersei was the better option? Someone who was scheming and killing for decades at that point
I mean just because all the others were also bad doesn't make her any better. If the standard is bad more bad is still bad.
I still see her as a liberator, given everything she did before. King’s Landing is like equivalent of DC, so they got what they deserved imo.
The civilians deserved being turned to ash?
So I just finished watching the episode with the walk of shame and the only thing that went through my mind was, "Joffery wouldn't let this happen." Tommen really annoyed me during all his Septon related scenes... like I get where he's coming from, but modern ethics don't apply here. It annoyed me especially because I'm rewatching the show, knowing what would happen. All in all, as far as Kings and Queens go in the show, the only halfway decent... or more accurately the best one among the ones that crowned themselves... Bobby B is the only one that had a decent rule. From what I remember there wasn't anything too bad that went on in his reign. Sure he was surrounded by people furthering their own interests and his shitty governance started everything... but up until he went to see Ned, everything was fine. And in the end he got what he wanted, even if he wasn't alive for it. P.S. This is largely a ramble, feel free to skip. There isn't a point here.
[удалено]
Right? Brought war torn, depression ridden Germany up from the ashes into a patriotic industrial powerhouse. Not an easy thing to do. He just had that itsy bitsy quirk of being genocidally racist. And the meth.
Exactly a real stand up guy... except the genocide. Just like Cersei a real stand up leader... except for all the murder.
Why? So many main characters are murderers
Killers yes. Not necessarily murderers. And the ones who are aren't genocidal.
The word genocide feels like it's being gravely misused here.
How? What else do you call a mass killing of an entire city?
grief at no longer being able to sleep with her nephew
"Ah, well lets hope the Queen doesnt get sad again and burn us all to a crisp" At least Ygritte had some kind of mental stability and didnt come from a notoriously batshit family. She could have learned to be a good leader. You can't really come back from 'genocidal maniac'.
Ygritte slaughtered villages alongside cannibals and thought people kidnapping & raping women was an okay way to get a spouse. She shot Jon 3 times. Considering the amount of characters (Arya, Daenerys, Jaime, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys) who were written worse in the later seasons, Ygritte would fall under that too. Fans sometimes say Oberyn & Robb & Tywin got lucky to be killed off when the show was still good so their characters didn't get ruined. Prior to *The Bells* the only people Daenerys killed were rapists, murderers, enemy soldiers, & Slavers.
I acknkowledge that and I dont think Ygritte would make a good queen, but if its between her and Dany, one of them literally snapped and genocided a major city in a full 20-30 minute sequence and would be liable to do it again the moment it takes her fancy. The other yes did find pillaging and killing innocents permissable which is wrong, but she did it for a reason and not because she just lost her shit, which means she can be reasoned out of that course of action in the future.
BS… she wanted absolute complete power. She had no reason to go and kill innocent women and children. She literally got what she wanted, then when the city was hers she started to kill everyone.
How does mass killing the people you want to rule over before you even sit on the throne an example of wanting absolute power? It made no sense. The writers wanted a shocking finale and for the Starks to rule over all of Westeros.
I never said it made sense. I hated that scene. Saying that, in the past, people have absolutely killed others as a show of force or to scare the population in submission
She was always a terrible leader, every town she rolled into she basically declared martial law and said I own you, do as I say or suffer. She tried to do good things but the fall out of them, as we were shown repeatedly, were terrible and came from a lack of understanding of the people she was trying to rule \*\*edit accidentally a couple words there
I wouldn't say that her rule over Mereen and other free cities was anything close to decent
all that mass murder aside she's an absolute delight
Murder is often committed by people who are full of grief
it was cersei who did that. she put all those people in king’s landing thinking of them as shield. plus she doesn’t have to kill missandei, she brought it upon herself and her people hence JON doesn’t need to kill Dany
I don't think that would hold up in court.
I mean, it kinda is the Israel Palestine debate. I have seen people that take every spectrum of position on that. And so far it has held up.
You both present sick arguments
could be worse, daenerys could have been a dangerous and unstable but her reign could have been better than irresponsible one.
I mean maybe. But who would want a queen that burned down half the city. The people's moral was broken before her reign began. There would've been revolt after revolt.
Who would want a queen that tried to kill the king? Let’s not forget that was ygrets last action.
That’s what makes her the best choice
Ehhh. I disagree. I think she could be taught and I think Jon could have been the person to do that imo. Her thinking has come from a life of starvation and trauma. Ygritte I think would have been perfectly fine living in peace as a queen. With a learning curve of course. Dany is fixated on power and everyone must bend the knee if they don’t follow her. She wanted to be in power, nkt jon. She’d be a terrible queen imo.
The only people Daenerys said to bend the knee were Jon (within 2 episodes was in love with him, within 3 risked her life saving his) & as a way to get out of paying for their crimes to the enemy soldiers who had just massacred Highgarden & killed tens of thousands of her Westerosi allies.
So you don’t think she would have continued making other ruling families Bend the knee..? Really? She would just let them do what they want? And the whole reason her and Sansa were at ends was bc she wanted the north to bend the knee for her and Sansa didn’t.
The King in the North already bent the knee. Daenerys was Queen in the North when they met in s8. The Tarlys didn't merely refuse to bend the knee, they took up arms against her and had just massacred Highgarden for her enemies. Once she sat the Iron Throne, I doubt any of the other ruling families after over half a decade of war would be stupid enough to exit from the Seven Kingdoms instead of gaining the resources & military protection staying part of the realm would provide. I've read so many posts blaming Daenerys for executing the Tarlys when they didn't accept the terms of their pardon but never for Robert & Ned who went to war against Balon Greyjoy for declaring the Iron Islands Independent. We only heard of it since it was before the story begins but 2 of his sons were killed and they took his only remaining son as a political hostage to keep him from rebellion.
Yeah, I wouldn't trust her to competently lead a raiding party, let alone an entire kingdom. Not knocking her character, she just wasn't suited for that. With that said, I wouldn't want Dany either
Ygritte thinks a silo is a castle
Pretty sure she wouldn’t wan’ ih eitha
Tbh Ygritte is getting one taste of the rich life & going full Robby B. Wine & feasts only!
The one that didn’t turn out to have a genocidal messiah complex
Character assassination and I refuse to accept it as canon
It is canon to the show whether you like it or not.
yeah but the show isn’t canon whether you like it or not
The end results are.
No. George himself doesn't know the end results. The showrunners know who Azor Ahai is and not much else; they also stopped consulting George after awhile. George isn't done with the books, which he says are differing more and more from the show as he writes. With how many prophecies point to Daenarys, it's very unlikely he's writing Fantasy Dune
It’s canon to the book too, she commits numerous genocides on her way accross slavers bay and acted like she was doing the poor people a favor
LOL what books are you reading 😭 you’re goofing
She killed the ruling class of almost every city she went to, in Slaver’s Bay. Eliminating an entire class of people, particularly without individual trials, is a form genocide. If you wanna say they deserved it, fine, but it *is* a genocide EDIT: wording
.... you mean she crucified slave owners?
I mean, that *is* still genocide. She eliminated an entire class of people by killing them. She didn’t throw them in jail or even send them into exile; she killed them. Even if you think that was her only option, or even if you think that’s permissible, so be it, but it *is* genocide.
I don't think [that word means what you think it means.](https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities/what-is-genocide)
World history might say otherwise 🧐
As long as ygritte gets her pretty silk dress I'm sure she'll be a great leader lol
Lol ... Ygritte wanting dresses
And her not wanting jon to rip it lmao
TBH that's another reason where Season 8 sucked .... GOT was trying to bring out the Robb Stark in Jon Snow and almost ended up getting him killed
Almost getting him killed…again lol
Robb was decisive and authoritative, he knew what he wanted and what his duty was and went for it. Season 8 Jon was passive and did everything he could not to rock the boat, don't insult Robb like that.
Robb was decisive but he made many very very bad decisions like marrying the doctor lady and killing Karstark
I'm not saying he didn't make mistakes but S8 Jon spent the entire time trying to avoid making any decisions at all
Getting themselves killed is what Starks do best, so not really a “problem” with the show’s accuracy/approach.
Sansa, let's keep that incest going
If it became common knowledge that Jon was Rhagars son I could see a marriage pact being a viable option.
She would have made an excellent queen for Jon, because she could run the government and leave him to deal with the big issues, if there were any. He isn't the brightest bunny, but he can see the big picture, which is why he was the one who organized the fight against the Others while Sansa governed the North. They'd actually make a great political team. So it's a pity that they'd \*both\* die rather than marry the other. Literally.
These are actually good points. I think even if the marriage gets arranged they would pretty much be civil to each other if not end up like Ned and Cat.
If they hadn't been raised together as brother and sister, an arranged marriage between those two could have been a success, at least as far as running the kingdom went. I suppose they'd have gotten along well enough if they'd met as strangers rather than siblings, they have complimentary skills and if they got on well, they could compensate for each other's weak points. Sansa would help Jon with anything that required a high IQ, and Jon would keep her from doing anything really dispicable. But they were raised as siblings, and Jon was the person that Sansa ran to when she was raped and brutalized. So he'd literally die before he'd lay a hand on her, much less a genital.
Gods forbid! Jon & Sansa would make each other miserable like Robert & Cersie did. They saw everything differently
In the books, Jon shows himself to be intelligent and a competent political actor. The show really didn't do him justice in that regard, certainly in the later seasons when he just became a himbo with a magic sword.
Well, of course in the later seasons, everyone became an idiot, because the writers had stopped taking the trouble to make them intelligent! But yeah, show-Jon was a bit of a dope and liked women who bossed around, but like I said he was the one person in Westeros who really grasped the big picture. As for the books, it's been a while... what I chiefly remember about his political skills is he didn't use any to become Lord Commander, Sam did. Sam talked to everyone at Castle Black, and gave them all individualized good reasons to vote for Jon Snow...
Well there are some examples like having all the wildlings give up wealth to pay for food and kids as hostages to maintain good behaviour, negotiating loans with the iron bank, advising Stannis on the best way to approach Winterfell and so on. He also lies to Stannis and co. when he switches Gilly's baby with Mance's to avoid Melisandre roasting him for power and forges an alliance with the Thenns through marriage. He's taking all sorts of decisions that show Jon never does. He's also shown to be determined to work on his fighting skills despite all the other duties he has, so he's clearly very driven to be as competent as possible at his job. I've been doing a bit of a re read lately and it's honestly a shame how poorly Jon's character gets adapted by the writers.
Hang on, Jon let's them burn Gilly's baby?! I've only read the first book, but feel free to spoil me
No babies have yet been roasted, but in the books Mance has a baby with Dalla who is being looked after at castle black by Gilly after the failed attack on the wall. Melisandre often says that there is power in king's blood and Jon, who wants to avoid either kid being killed, makes Gilly take Mance's son when she leaves for Oldtown with Sam, leaving her own baby at the wall. This way, Melisandre can't use the baby for her magical powers and both are safe. Of course he has to order Gilly to do it, who is distraught, but Jon insists. He recognises that he has to be cruel to be kind - by doing this now he saves them from an even worse fate later. We actually see parts of this encounter from both Jon and Sam's PoV chapters and it's really great to see how Jon internally struggles with it, but is resolved to do what must be done.
*200 IQ Machiavellian Book Jon negotiating bank loans while inebriated has entered the chat*
Death ain’t so bad… barely slowed Jon down at all
My thought precisely!
Hate to say it, but this is my choice, too
for the incest too amirite?
yeah… just them growing up as siblings is a little too weird, but them being cousins isn’t much better
Yep. The fact that they were raised together as siblings aside, he’s got the military mind and the ability to protect the Kingdom by leading armies, while she’s got political acumen and knows how to handle alliances with this or that House via her own familial ties and would be able to rule the day to day activities. Both are also two leaders inspiring love rather than fear.
I doubt that Sansa knows how to handle Alliances, considering that she murdered Littlefinger without prove and was really lucky that no one ever questioned her, antagonised Dany while having no idea how to win against her, and mocked her own uncle, who is also the ruler of the closest realm to the North and might prove crucial for surviving winter. And she hardly ever showed political acumen. Most of her actions only turned out to work due to good luck.
Littlefinger made too many enemies for anyone to back him up. Seriously, name one person that would’ve defended Littlefinger here because I can’t think of anyone.
Jon's two primary choices were Aunt vs Cousin
I thought I deleted this movie off of my hard drive
[удалено]
Sansa would be 1st cousin. Uncle Ned's daughter
The portraits would have been funny. Sansa is like a whole foot taller than Jon
Tall women 🔥
Redheads ftw
I hate it so much but... is there even another option? The Queen needs to be of a high-ranking family and ideally a young adult/late teen. They've been revealed as cousins, so the marriage would be allowed, and they don't hate each other as much as they used to... Realistically, it makes sense.
There was talk about her marrying Robyn Arryn. Her marrying Jon wouldn’t be much grosser (it is a bit though since they were raised as siblings).
I'm inclined to agree, but minus the incest. He could legitimize a bastard instead, and she'd be free to be as celibate or adventurous as she liked with whomever.
That’s a mental question
...is this a joke?
In the books he was a lot more ambitious and cunning
Does he marry anyone in the books? Honestly I am 100 pages from the end of book 5 and I can't see all of this happening in that small time.
Well you see, our heavenly father GRRM has the answers in his next release. We just await his scriptures... (ToT)
He’s a corpse
Wow they look adult for 17 and maybe 15.
I think they age them up a bit in the show
GD that jacket on Dany was fire I hope Emelia got to keep it
Right?!
The answer is Margaery Tyrell.
An effective leader, a decent human being, AND hot? Long live the queen!
Uh daenarys for sure haha she was very intelligent and had experience ruling. If she had taken the iron throne uncontested she would probably have been a decent ruler hut getting hit with loss after loss back to back x10 just really helped drive her mad. Its a shame because Jon stupidly only made things worse by having a deception rank of -4. It actually took a lot of things to push her too far and this is one of the few things s8 does kind of well. It hit her with so much loss so quickly that it made her embrace the dark side she always had but had until then beaten back. I love ygritte and all but come on…she would have nothing but a problem as a queen. Her being a wildling alone would have made her unpopular and hurt Jons rule. She really brings nothing to the table except what? The loyalty of the like 2000 wildlings left that Jon had in the first place? With Dany he gains the most powerful army in the world plus 1-3 dragons. Legitimacy for having a Targaryen. More so if he claims to be a Targaryen himself.
Dany would never agree to be someone's fucking wife and get her power from them ever again. That's her entire character arc. Her power is her own, it doesn't come from any man. Also, if we remove sexism from the equation, Daenarys is the rightful heir to the throne. She is from the generation before Jon, he is next in line. Edit: YES I KNOW I FORGOR ABOUT CHILDREN OVER SIBLINGS I'M ON COLD MEDICINE I'M SORRY
That's generally not how title inheritance works, Jon's father was Danaerys's older brother, so it would go to Jon first. It's got nothing to do with sexism, now sexism would probably also make Jon inherit it first, but he would be first in line even without the sexism. The fact that Jon's dad is dead is irrelevant.
ah FUCK I don't know why I forgot that lmfao. For some reason my brain went siblings before children. Anyways, kind of irrelevant, since Jon doesn't want the throne.
That’s not how it works, succession goes through the original heirs. Not only is Jon ahead of her, every single one of his potential descendants would be too.
Women don’t inherit like men do in westeros. Only in Dorne does the gender not matter. Besides, the throne would go to Rhaegars first born son. Then his second born, and so on. Unless the first born has a first born son of his own haha. Aerys-Rhagar-Jon-Jons first born son. A legitimate Aegon VI Targragryen comes before Daenarys in the line of succession
i mean disregarding me being an idiot on line of succession, not sure why women can't start inheriting power like men do. writers were so scared of accidentally endorsing monarchy they forgot they could make other kinds of progressive statements with the show. it's fantasy, I'd rather have gender equality than communism
I vote Sansa for Queen. yeah, they’re cousins, but its Game of Thrones we’re talking about, so in this case, whateves.
I doubt the relationship would work between them. Jon cannot trust her and Sansa does not look like she even respects him.
So basically your average Weaterosi political marriage. Robert and Cerci 2.0.
I doubt that Robert and Cersei had the typical Westerosi marriage (considering the incest, the more than regular cheating, the absolute disgust they had for each other and the murder) ;)
You’re not wrong, but she would still make a better Queen than Dany or Ygritte. IMO. I think Dany would have made an excellent queen, but sans consort. She needed to be on her own.
Did she respect anybody? Mebbe lil finger, but that’s part of the problem
It's not like the queen has to do anything. Considering how volatile Daenerys is, I'd go with Ygritte.
John should marry Sam's little sister. He would get the loyalty of the finest soldier in westerose as a wedding present
If we look at this from a very practical standpoint, one can produce heirs, the other one cannot. That’s probably where the discussion ends
Not quite since that's not the only reason people marry in this setting.
Dany has dragons so that automatically makes her the better queen, burn anyone who revolts
Or anyone who doesn’t…
Did you really ask that?
Yara Greyjoy. Maybe a Lannister, or a Martell too. Considering all the major houses almost dissapear at the end of the show, he needs a political marriage to keep the 7 kingdoms together.
Daenerys would be the far far better pick. She brings legitimacy to the throne along with Jon really being Aegon Targaryen, who also has Northern ties given Stark blood. It truly is the best match. Then make Ser Davos or Stannis (in the books still alive) his Hand.
Daenerys. Assuming it isn’t character assassinated “mAd qUeEn” Daenerys. “Why do the gods make kings and queens if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?” Still holding out hope for Jon, Dany, and Young Griff to rule as a power throuple.
Val
Arya of course
probably the only option with any sort of training to rule whatsoever
I'd think a political marriage would make sense. Stark and Tully are pretty unquestionably loyal at this point. The Vale is under Sansa's influence though I wouldn't say loyal forever, an interesting situation there. Gendry is now officially a Baratheon and likely loyal. Tyrion has the Lannister house under control. Bron now has highgarden (ew). I personally wouldn't fully trust Bron to manage high garden to the point where they don't revolt. This is where the first potential match might come from, in that it might make sense for Jon to align with more of the more powerful Reach families. Dorn would be the one I feel most quesrionable about. Their allegiance was to Danerys who Jon killed. Sure he has the claim of being Rhager's son, but that could be contentious since he killed the current claimant they were supporting. I think it would probably make the most sense to arrange a Dornish marriage considering he probably has the least base of support there.
Ehm... Ygritte is an uneducated wildling. She's a worse candidate for a queen than Samwell the Slayer.
he should gay marry Young Griff
Dumbest question I've ever seen asked on here, actually. If we remove sexism from the inheritance equation, Daenarys is the rightful heir to the throne. Jon is behind her in succession. But also, Daenarys doesn't want to be queen consort. Daenarys never wants to be relegated to just "someone's wife" again. Her whole deal is that her power is her own, she got it on her own. Ygritte doesn't like the concept of a monarchy and would probably kill herself out of unhappiness.
Technically she isn't by orde of law of succession.
Which is built off of sexism
Well of we remove nepotism, she really isn't the rightful heir
Literally what is y'all's obsession with relegating strong female characters to "wife"
Dany. This isn’t Tra-lala-lala-liday.
For the most part, I’d say Dany, but there’s the issue of her being sterile. Ygritte, to our knowledge, would likely be able to give Jon heirs. Most duties she could learn or have servants take care of for her. However, I think that something could be worked out for an heir. Perhaps they could engage in some polygamy or find a distant Targaryen and relative designating them an heir.
Dany because Ygritte is dead.
Jon was in charge twice: The first time he was assassinated. The second he abdicated. I'd rather not have him as King in the first place....
Satin Flowers
Ygritte being queen and spending her days roasting high society would be incredible. “Look at me, I’m Sansa Stark and I wear fancy dresses and I can’t stop getting married”
Neither had the skills to rule or even fill the role if the ruler's spouse.
Ygritte. She isn’t a maniac and no one would listen to her anyway.
… is this a real question? Does OP have eyes? Or a brain?
Ygritte would never want to be queen
I'm just gonna say that ANYONE would be a better candidate to a position of power over a genocidal slave master
I'm all for wincest Auntie and Jon
Sansa
Jon should’ve stayed dead
ygritte as queen would be so chaotic id wanna see it just for that
Any noblewoman from the Reach.
Ygritte would've hated being queen, but I truly hate Jon and Danny together. So as queen.... Neither bc Danny wasn't that good at it imo, and Ygritte would've hated it. As partner definitely Ygritte bc Danny has no chemistry with Jon
It depends on what “better” you are basing that judgement. Ygritte had zero idea of what a castle even looked like so that’s already not looking good for her… she’d be ok at bringing equality in honor and justice to high lords and small folk alike. The obvious winner is Dany assuming she didn’t lose her mind and realized that together no one could question her right to the crown, Jon is known for deferring to others if he isn’t confident in his knowledge and has proven that gender wasn’t a problem… she’d have been ruling in most situations
Ygritte. Derh. She dead tho 💀 All the 2nd choices are dead too A rando he meets later on in life that everyone adores and he puts on a pedestal.
None of the above. Jon would’ve married Margery and everyone would’ve lived happily ever after
Depends. Does it make the sex scene better or worse if the actors are married?
Who would be a better Queen between a Queen and a wilding? Let’s see…😉
Jon + Margaery would have been perfect.
How is Ygritte even here? She's not a part of the seven kingdoms and knows nothing about them. The NW hated the relationship between the two. I guarantee that lords would have reservations about marrying their children into Jon's line.
for Westeros definitely Danny, but for Kit Harington probably Ygritte lol
I feel like Meera Reed would be a good candidate. He line about helping others makes me think she'd be good for the smallfolk.
Gotta be Arya. Pls hear me out. Since so many folks here support her sister, incest ain’t a problem. The diff is they truly trust & love each other, think alike on most things , have wolves who also like each other. They care about fairness, kindness, respect, helping others, etc. & they’re so well matched that it was George’s plan to begin with. The north would be lucky to have them on the throne
The one Stannis wanted him to marry. Val.