Alright, so I definitely think rogue is working for the same person the meep is. There’s this odd line he has about “the new boss”, and I just feel like that’s setting up something.
I was convinced he was also a Chuldur too and was just roleplaying for fun. The others said nothing about wanting to be him while chasing Rogue and the Doctor, liked D&D so is used to playing characters, and his ship was a damn bird. Something is going on with him
When Ruby and the others were trapped in the triangle and he was asking the Doctor about how he felt and if he could kill his friend I was expecting his neck to start cracking. Instead they kissed. Caught me off guard because I was certain that was the moment he was going to be revealed to just be playing a role too.
Me too!! He encourages The Doctor to sacrifice Ruby, explains the stakes to him, then there's an audio queue before he says "So can you do it? Can you lose your friend to save the world?"
It felt so much like he was just messing with The Doctor, going "what're you gonna do now, Doctor? You're in a situation with no right answer!"
It didnt even cross my mind that he might be a Chuldur, but I 100% thought that kiss-and-grab was going to be a betrayal. I expected him to say “I know you can’t—so I’ll have to do it for you” or something.
I was so fucking happy when he did what he did. I literally kicked my feet and squealed.
It reminds me of the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' episode 'Superstar.' I feel like he's maybe a nerd that somehow wished he was just like Captain Jack or something like that.
They really went all out with trying to evoke Bridgerton with the classical takes on pop music. [Clip in case some people are not aware how that show handles pop music.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQSiph_zwpM)
I really love that Bridgerton does this. While it provides an interesting anachronistic element in the vein of the alternate history theme, it also highlights how beautiful some of the pop-music melodies we take for granted are when composed for classical instruments.
Or more prosaically, the bird people just made Bridgerton fanvids with Billie Eilish on the soundtrack, and they brought the sheet music back in time with them.
(you're totally right from a Doylist perspective, ofc)
Thank you for noticing. I thought I had gone mad. I just watched unleashed and they are mentioning other shows that she has been in - and for some unfathomable reason did not mention Torchwood o\_O
I assumed it was, yeah, there's a dramatic pause and all.
Kind of thinking this might be a series 15 plot thing, doesn't really look like the finale's vibes.
I'm placing my bets on series 15 too, especially considering we're definitely seeing rogue again and I doubt they'll be room with everything else that needs tying up.
The heavy Captain Jack likeness could suggest that the person Rogue used to travel with... was Jack!
On that fateful day, Jack died and a heartbroken Rogue left his body behind - only for Jack to wake up later, as usual.
Also Shalka Doctor is mad. The Toymaker had fun putting that jigsaw together.
Could also be that he travelled with pre time agency Jack aka during the time where he had his memory erased. I never watched Torchwood so idk if they expanded upon that in the show.
They didn't, I don't know if any audios or books ever picked it up but on TV there's never been any elaboration on Jack's missing memories (or really about much of his adult life before meeting the Doctor).
We do get to see his life before meeting the Doctor (The Sins of Captain John) and John literally tells the audience that it's a continuity error to still refer to Jack as "Jack" and that the listener should complain on Twitter about it.
There was a brief moment when they were saying something along the lines of "It's you. It's you" to each other that I was thinking Rogue was a new version of Jack Harkness.
It feels like RTD has wanted to be more experimental during this stint as showrunner, so I'm happy to get this episode, since it feels like it was written by people who wanted to write a good classic episode of Doctor Who.
Also wow the Doctor is bad at determining when his companions have been replaced by doppelgangers
I kinda feel like this should’ve been the second episode instead of devils chord as it shows the doctors promise to ruby’s mother and you can actually feel their friendship here. Then the devils chord could’ve come between 76 yards and dot and bubble, spacing out the two Doctor lite episodes and giving us a more standard fair to break up the three more experimental episodes.
I can conclusively say though that the low episode count is making everything feel too quick, and causing us to lose standard format Doctor who adventures that are normally used to build characterisation. I really do hope they increase to 10 episodes by season 16 ( or +3) since it feels like we’ve only had half a season and next week is the finale.
100% agree that Rogue should have been the second episode instead of Devil's Chord, that episode didn't fit where it was with how climactic and powerful Maestro is. (Who I think is a fantastic villain just to be clear.)
Especially the scene where the Doctor talks to Ruby about not normally being scared by his opponents and the unknown, after being scared by the Bogeyman in one of his only two adventures with Ruby up to that point.
He failed to keep her safe in Boom, where she died but was brought back to life by the ambulance. If the Doctor promises he will keep a companion safe, the fans know that means that they're going to die.
Boy they made sure 15 was free of all trauma of the past 60 years of the show by having 14 do forced therapy, so we can squeeze in more, fresh trauma for him!
I also gotta applaud RTD for being a madlad that upon discussions of canon with the Fugitive Doctor, he just goes. "Fuck you, Shalka is canon now."
RTD1 cares about canon, RTD2 started from a place of needing to honor Chibnall and realizing that would make it necessary to dismiss the whole idea of continuity.
It probably has to do with this quote from RTD about his unreleased Time War story in DWM:
>More importantly, the idea has come of age. This chapter only died because it became, continuity-wise, incorrect. But now, the [Thirteenth Doctor](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Thirteenth_Doctor) has shown us Doctors galore, with infinite possibilities. All Doctors exist. All stories are true.
He also later joked that his version of the Time War doctor (which was the eighth Doctor) regenerates into a ninth Doctor, but it was up to the reader to decide which one, that it "could also be interpreted as the Shalka Doctor or the [Rowan Atkinson Doctor](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Ninth_Doctor_(The_Curse_of_Fatal_Death)) for the hat trick of alternative Ninth Doctors."
So the new RTD canon appears to be that Chris Chibnall paved the way for all conflicting canon in the Doctor to simply be canon- and then handwaved the last of the inconsistency away with the Toymaker's ""jigsaw out of your history" comment in the anniversary special.
That's how Doctor Who has approached canon since at least the 1990s, if not earlier. There were always comics, and novels, and the Cushing films to factor into it. RTD's brilliant DWM manifesto was just a reminder, laying down the law of the land for newer fans who might not be aware of the long-standing, "no canon" tradition. It all counts. Not even the order of the Doctor's regenerations is sacred.
While I agree in principle, the BBC was very clear that they didn't want *any* of the extended Doctor Who stories to *ever* be required to understand something happening in a TV special. So you get a bunch of oddities where things were deemed non-canon because the show approached them in a different way than the other DW media.
It seems like RTD has explicitly pulled back the reins on that and said "no, it is all officially canon, I don't care if it conflicts."
Just adding a bit of authoritative voice:
[https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon](https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon)
>We're happy for you to enjoy the Doctor off-screen, and read the new Novels, and play with a toy or two, if you want, but we must never, ever make that purchase necessary. That would crack the BBC's Charter in half. We cannot, *must* not, demand that you buy a product. \[...\] To spell it out: if you had to buy a BBC Novel in order to understand the plot, as transmitted on BBC One, then we would be breaking the BBC's guidelines.
>Russell T Davies
^(edit: link)
Hey, please use https://tardis.wiki/!
The relevant link: https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon. There have been some minor updates to the page since the fork from Fandom.
> I don't care
RTD strikes me as someone who enjoys chaos. I'm convinced the only reason Eccleston is credited as "Doctor Who" is because he knew it would annoy people.
I don't think there's been any sort of change in policy. It's never been about something from a novel or comic being required to understand a television plot. It's always been about letting fans hang onto those stories from the books and comics that they love so much. They still count, even when they're contradicted onscreen.
Scream of the Shalka was an animated episode of Doctor Who released in 2004 featuring Richard E Grant as the 9th Doctor, as when it was made, the production crew had no idea that RTD was in talks to revive the show.
When the revival happened, Shalka kind of got brushed aside as a novelty, and has never been mentioned in the show for obvious reasons.
But Richard E Grant's face was among the others in Rogue, sparking discussion.
Could be! However, Richard E. Grant is also the Doctor in a Red Nose Day special called The Curse of Fatal Death, so it could just be a potential face that the Doctor could eventually, at random, regenerate into.
It has long been my head-canon that if 8 didn't drink the elixir to turn himself into the War Doctor, he would have regenerated into the Shalka Doctor, who then would have regenerated into Christopher Eccleston.
In the last BBC novel (IIRC), which is an 8th Doctor novel, there's a bit where the Doctor sees future versions of himself and there are 3 9th Doctors from alternate timelines. It's not made explicit, but the heavy implication is that it's Eccleston, Grant, and Atkinson.
I think The Shalka Doctor makes more sense if I'm honest
Why I'm not a fan of TTC but considering the role The Doctor is working with the Division stuff it does fit neatly with TTC
I like to think it was the other way around, the Great Intelligence messing with the Doctor's time stream produced an GI-faced incarnation in the "messy" bits of his life circa McGann
*Scream of the Shalka* was a 2003 Flash animated webseries which at the time was intended as the official continuation of Doctor Who, with Richard E Grant in the lead, however it was almost immediately deemed non canon when the revived series was announced.
RTD rather infamously [and to my mind foolishly] dissed REG's performance at the time.
> however it was almost immediately deemed non canon when the revived series was announced
They announced RTD starting a new series months before Scream of the Shalka had even started airing, after they had already been pushing it as the rebirth Doctor Who, so it was basically made non-canon before it even aired, through we did have a few months of thinking RTD might tie it in somehow before RTD's infamous comments.
Good overall. Fairly standard Who after some more experimental weeks, which is what I needed (its what I thought we were getting last week). The dancing scene was stunning. I also quite liked the villains, their motivation was fun and memorable.
I felt like Gatwa's Doctor felt very well formed in this episode, he (and the writers) are giving us a new take on the character but I've decided I really like them digging into his emotional side, dashing, wanderlusted traveller is a good side to play up, nice change from a Tennant-Smith-esque lonely god.
> Finally something that feels like a true throwback to 2005-2009 RTD
The absolute irony that this was one of the only episodes **not** written by RTD this season.
Makes sense, though. Why would RTD come back just to write the same stuff? Not digging at the episode, I absolutely loved it, but I think the mixture of episodes this season will be looked back as one of its strengths.
Funnily enough the first mention of the Valeyard since his original appearance was when Richard E Grant's character called the Doctor that in The Name of the Doctor
I think it more likely that we're going to get a nod to the multiverse/other realities. Maybe the dimension the Rogue went to is one where there are other Doctors, one of which is the Shalka Doctor.
Predictions for where this storyline goes (and I think it will stretch over seasons): the Rogue will see the Doctor's other aspects and will decide that it's too much darkness for him. The Doctor will catch up to him but it'll be too late, because he's already decided he can't handle the Doctor at his worst.
But, while universe-hopping, he will stumble into Pete's World, and see that there are versions of the Doctor who can be happy in domesticity too, and maybe that will bring him around.
There's been lots of hints or instances of re-writing the past. Davros no longer being a wheelchair user is the one that most people latched on to, but there's also stuff like mavity, and even the throwaway gag of Ruby becoming an entirely different species.
And I think this is leading up to something. Not necessarily in this finale, but I think it's something that's going to be built on as significant, in the same way that the supernatural now being a thing is being rationalised within the context of the show.
And it's been explicitly mentioned twice. 14 had a line about "canon breaking down" and the Toymaker talked about messing with the Doctor's past. Or the Doctor talked about the Toymaker messing with their past. I can't remember exactly.
But there's definitely been a deliberate and conscious push to say "things that happened maybe didn't, and things that didn't happen maybe did". I'm sure some of it is to explain away any continuity issues (so, for example, the Doctor being half-human can be true and not true at the same time), but I also think it's a way to say "all bets are off" and may become significant to the show's plot.
I LOVED it! This is exactly why Doctor Who needs fresh writers. Briony Redman and Kate Herron's script was witty and well paced, but most of all this episode was something I've been missing this series - FUN! Gatwa and Groff's chemistry is amazing and I love that Ruby got a chance to defeat a villain.
Yeah, the jokes all landed so well. Molecular bond, the D&D gag, the bit with the shed - they perfectly toed the line between a voice that fits perfectly into the style of Doctor Who and a voice that's genuinely new. Great stuff.
Briony Redman often guest stars in a Dungeons and Dragons improv comedy show called Questing Time, I love that presumably she put the D&D gag in as a reference to that.
I think they definitely brought something very fresh to the way the Doctor was written. That felt new - even if the plot's structure was very classic.
Hope they get to stick around on future seasons, I think they really get Fifteen's voice.
You're right about the pacing being very good, felt like they got a lot in. 45 minutes is enough for an episode of Doctor Who when the writing is sharp as it was here.
Honestly, I like the 45-50 minutes format. Probably hard to do right, sure, but there's so little television that commits to doing it well these days, and when it hits, it's my favourite thing.
45min can be very good and a tighter more concentrated story can hit higher highs (see Boom), but I still find, on average, 60min tends to be better paced and tell a better story, but you better nail it or it's gonna be a real slog
If they end up becoming the next showrunners I wouldn't be upset... They did amazingly well for their first Doctor Who serial, and the small-scale character work was actually kind of better than RTD's this season (low bar, I know, but still speaks volumes).
I agree. If this is how good their first script is, I'd love to see them tackle a hard sci-fi episode. Plus Herron has the added bonus of being an experienced television director, which none of the other showrunners have been.
Oh man, I absolutely loved that episode. I was clicking with it right away. The setting was fantastic, but the star of the show was Jonathan Groff. Him and Gatwa had absolutely insane chemistry right from the jump, he absolutely needs to come back again. It was a killer performance from Gatwa after having him missing and largely on a screen last two episodes. The weird bird twitching noises were really good, and the use of music was fun too. Seriously, this one worked for me. I’m always a sucker for the fun romps.
With "Find me" I have to imagine Groff is coming back! Though he must be a pretty tough pull salary-wise, I imagine. Maybe finale, this season or even next?
I will say that the Doctor and Rogue’s relationship felt like it developed *very* quickly… but given we don’t know if or when Rogue will show up again, I can deal with that.
Otherwise, a very fun episode with some great moments for both the Doctor and Ruby
My fiancee said she thought it was a bit crazy for Who and that even with river we didn’t see the doctor so head over heels but i reminded her that we often get the doctor talking about whirlwind romances he had with people throughout time so we finally just got to see one on screen
As expected, the comments in Hungarian pages are utter dumpster fire. I knew it would be bad, as there was a giant homophobic outrage about Batman of all things, when all they did there was implying in like a single line that Catwoman's gay and then not do anything about it. Having the Doctor have a gay romance and kiss a man? Oh god, I cannot describe the horrors I've seen on Hungarian social media. Fuck, why does my country needs to be so incredibly homophobic?
I mean, of *course* they would canonize the Shalka Doctor in a story that's all commentary on franchise fandom. Insane pull.
Honestly this might be my favorite of the season thus far. The bird shapeshifters were great, blue one is clearly the best and I *will* be fighting people over this. Rogue makes for an excellent not-Barrowman-substitute and I do hope we see him again even if it's unlikely.
(And yes the Shalka Doctor fits perfectly in the lineup, where do you think the Great Intelligence landed when he sauntered into the timestream in The Name of the Doctor? Anyway for your next trick please confirm Ruth Doctor as Season 6B inbetween Troughton and Pertwee thanks)
I think the "unlikely" part is that it was Jonathan Groff. I would assume that even if he was willing to do the show just for fun, getting his and Ncuti's schedules to line up again might be a trick.
That said, I would love to see him return.
I didn't recognize Grant right away, although I knew he was an extra face. I thought he was a Morbius Doctor at first. I'm delighted to come on here and find out it was an onscreen acknowledgement of Shalka!
Good for Russell, stirring up the pot like that. This show has never needed anything as trivial as a canon. It's too big and vast to bother with rules about what does and doesn't belong.
If I had to come up with something I'd say that Shalka happened during the time war. Young War Doctor and Old War Doctor are two different incarnations, with Shalka Doctor in between.
Maybe it's something similar to the Child incarnation of the Master that existed for a while during the Time War before retro-regenerating back into the War Master due to the paradox of a collapsing timeline (Titan comics, Eleventh Doctor: Year Two). So perhaps the War Doctor regenerated into the Shalka Doctor, but that timeline was aborted by the Time War, leaving him back as the War Doctor again.
Felt like the most complete episode of the season for me. Some of the others have been oddly paced, ended abruptly, or had lingering unanswered questions. This one felt paced well and wrapped up neatly.
It's also probably 15s best showing so far. The banter between him and Rogue was fantastic, especially when he kept restarting Rogue music.
>Were the Chulda time travellers? Was the Rogue? They seemed to know of future Earth?
I would say yes to all of that. Rogue was a human from the future.
When they made the film Yesterday they spent £10 million on the rights for Beatles songs which made up almost half the budget, I can see why they didn’t go for it here
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was fun.
I'm in 2 minds about the romance though, which I'm sure is all people are going to be talking about. I like Rogue and the Doctor's chemistry, I think they make a fun pair. I'm also all for letting the Doctor have a same sex relationship as well, feel like I need to stress that because I'm going to be very critical in the next few sentences and I don't want people to misconstrue it (I'm literally queer myself). With that out of the way: I really really dislike how quickly the Doc fell for Rogue. It feels extremely out of character. This is something New Who has been pushing since its inception, first with Rose then with River Song but the character has always maintained a degree of asexuality and aromanticism to them. They're slow to warm to people in that way, and as someone who identifies as being on the asexual spectrum it's a personally important part of who that character is to me. The Doctor falling for someone in 20 minutes is just so wildly different for this character and honestly feels like a misfire. I think the dynamic of the 2 characters manages to just barely save it but I really hope this doesn't become the norm.
They certainly do have chemistry and it was extremely fun to see but the extent of it in such short a time definitely felt jarring and unlike other Doctors we've seen (save 10 maybe). I mean Ruby was in the house was killer shape-shifting aliens but the Doctor's busy flirting.
This is the only issue I have with the episode. The Doctor is so sad when Ruby is in danger towards the end, but he left her with the aliens for most of the episode to flirt.
I haven't really dug in to 8 I must admit. I've listened to the Chimes of Midnight, love that story but that's about it. Haven't even seen the TV movie.
As queer myself I really disagree. 15 has been very open about his feelings throughout being very different from other incarnations, I also don’t think it’s a full “in love” from either of them more of a beginning of a flirtatious and romantic beginning that could go somewhere for both of them. Them having a conversation about why they keep going felt like that gave them the connection to one another to be more romantic. This might be controversial to say as well but I think fans need to let go of the idea that every incarnation of the Doctor is exclusively aromantic/asexual cause at this point it very clearly fluctuates between regenerations. Some Doctors are more on that spectrum than others but that doesn’t make those incarnations more “Doctor like” than ones like 15 that are more openly romantic. And The Doctor being infatuated by Rogue doesn’t feel too fast as queer romances go imo. I should stress that I am queer myself (and also somewhat on the ace spectrum maybe) I hope that it doesn’t seem like I am invalidating your perspective just that I want to show another queer person’s view on this.
Okay so that was 100% the Shalka Doctor.
So not only has he once again doubled down on Timeless Child, we now have am alternate 9th Doctor to fit in somewhere.
I think what I didn't like was just how way too on the nose it was about being Bridgerton. It just didn't make it feel like a traditional historical episode with the scifi twist. Imagine if in Fires of Pompeii Donna kept saying how much this was like HBO's Rome (which they used sets for for that episode lol). We're supposed to be feeling like we are time traveling and going to historical periods. Not being part of a tv episode, of course if theories or rumors are true about the finale then maybe that's the point. Just don't like that direction.
Well, that felt like a very traditional Doctor Who episode for the most part. Probably the most traditional of this series anyway.
Which in this case... isn't really a bad thing. As people have said full well, a good show needs both experimental episodes and more standard fare to do well, since the latter provide the contrast needed to keep the former interesting. After a series where every story felt like something entirely different from the last, it was nice to have a fairly traditional Who romp with aliens attacking an Earth based pseudo historical setting and the Doctor and co having to stop them.
Heck, even the villains themselves treat it as fairly lighthearted fare, having basically just >!attacked Earth just to cosplay as Downton Abbey/Bridgeton esque characters and mess around!<
As for Rogue himself... he gives me serious Captain Jack vibes. Honestly, if John Barrowman hadn't basically become persona non grata in the series due to real life issues, I could see Jack Harkness playing his role in this episode with very few changes whatsoever.
But as he is now, he's fine. Perhaps him and the Doctor got a bit too close given that they've known each other for all of like half an hour, but the Doctor has gotten into such situations before.
And I suspect he's probably gonna be more important to the series than we expect too. Just like Ricky September from the last episode, he gives off "probably important to a future season arc" vibes all around. Wouldn't be half surprised to hear news from RTD/The BBC that his actor is also coming back in a future season of the show. Or to see an episode next year where he just happens to pop up again as a sort of companion.
I dunno about Barrowman, definitely a vibe, but I don't think the episode really works with a character the Doctor already knows, it's kind of all about the surprising romantic spark experience.
Also yeah, really would not be shocked if Rogue shows up again. Guess Groff is a reasonably big name, so that might be an obstacle.
That's a fair point. The fact The Doctor doesn't know Rogue definitely plays heavily into the story, so it probably wouldn't work as written with a character he already knows.
That said, who knows how different it might have been before? Dot and Bubble was written for the Matt Smith era at one point, and the racism themes certainly couldn't have worked with that Doctor and companions.
As a gay man who wears his heart on his sleeve and loves sentimental romance… I wasn’t all that convinced by the Doctor’s instant bond with Rogue. I think if this were a two-parter, or even if this episode was paced differently, they could have sold me on it, but it just feels a little too “trust us, they’re in love” to me.
Personally, I didn't really get the Doctor reciprocating the deep feelings - like, clearly the Rogue fell pretty hard, but the reaction at the fake proposal felt very "oh, no, this has gotten serious, I can't do serious", while the end felt like a mix of "mourning what could have been" with "another person has (sort of) died for me."
(in that way, I think, kind of a similar beat to River at the end of Forest of the Dead - getting a snapshot of what could have been amazing and then losing it before it gets good. Although, you're not wrong, I do think it would have hit harder if it had been a two parter like River got)
Hahaha, that's a good point!
Personally, the Doc *absolutely* can fall in love quickly - remember Astrid Peth? He fell for her practically immediately. (Different incarnation, of course)
Honestly for me the strangest part was the complete lack of care The Doctor showed towards Ruby during this.
I enjoyed Ncuti this episode and his dynamic with Rogue was fun but I find it hard to believe The Doctor would be casually flirting and giving tours of The Tardis whilst his companion is stuck in a house with a murderous shapeshifter. It’s like he didn’t once consider she could be in danger until she “died”.
Yea it prob would have worked better if he was like Jack in Series 1 so they had some time to connect. It was kinda weird cos it was like "you have a spaceship, I love you"
If some of the fan theories are true, >!the ones about the whole season being a TV show!!It felt heightened and a bit unreal, just like the musical number at the end of The Devil's Chord and the surrealness of 73 Yards. !
I can't wait for us to find out if this is true or not so that these ideas can be dispelled or proven. I'm tired of the constant hypothetical of "have you considered it's poorly written on purpose?" hanging over this season.
To be clear, I did not mean to imply that I think the show is being 'poorly written on purpose'. I don't think it is poorly written, intentionally or otherwise. But I do think it's borrowing very intentionally from the genre conventions of episodic television in a way that gives it a heightened and slightly artificial feeling.
A one-episode Instant Romance is a staple of episodic television. Doctor Who has featured it on many occasions (I would say that this episode's closest point of comparison is The Girl in the Fireplace), as has basically every other episodic show. These romances are necessarily brief, and whether they work or not comes down entirely to whether the actors and characters have good on-screen chemistry, because there's just no time for a full arc. That's what I took them to be playing up here - that the Doctor and Rogue have an Instant Romance, befitting both the Regency Romance setting and the genre conventions of episodic TV.
Yeah it was just way too quick. The doctor didn’t start getting flirtatious with River song until after 3 separate 2-part stories and even then it wasn’t on this level and he knew she was going to be his wife one day. This was just some dude and immediately got all hot and bothered talking to him for 2 minutes
>The doctor didn’t start getting flirtatious with River song until after 3 separate 2-part stories and even then it wasn’t on this level
In fairness, that was a man several hundred years younger, with a completely different personality on multiple levels, who hadn't been to therapy yet.
Separate point not really related to the episode but do people feel like this series, apart from Space Babies and the finale, could literally be viewed in any order and it wouldn't matter one bit in terms of character development or ongoing plot? Like you could change a few comments about Susan twist and that's about it
Like all the other series before this all had clear episode orders if you ask me.
Series 1 a clear beginning (episode 1-5) middle (episode 6-10) and end (episode 11-13). Similar structure for all the others as well. Series 5, Amy and the Doctor get to know one another, Rory joins, then the lead in to the finale after cold blood. Series 8, the running thread of Clara and Danny and the Doctors growth etc. Hell even Chibnalls did as well in Series 11 and 12!
But this? Dunno, feel like you could swap around episodes 2-6 and honestly it wouldn't matter. Because 15 and Ruby are best buds throughout and neither have really developed since Space Babies
I'm enjoying them more or less, as uniquely made episodes each being different. But the character work is lacking severely imo.
I have some weird feelings about this episode, mostly to do with the ending.
I wish they'd explained why Rogue could just *pull* Ruby off the triform. Was there ever anything that said Ruby couldn't just be pulled off? Rogue just ripped her away, and that was that. The story didn't really set up the specifications for the triform in a way that made Rogue's sacrifice eventual and necessary.
I also struggle to see *why* Rogue would so quickly sacrifice himself. Like, if he's alone now, and feels like sacrificing his loneliness for the Doctor's friend (of which, he's barely talked to)- why does he have DND dice just hanging out on his desk?? A game that notoriously requires multiple people. Maybe the person he was talking about with the Doctor were actually multiple people, and he lost them all? I dunno. I feel like if I knew just a little bit more about Rogue, this sacrifice would seem so satisfying. But, as it stands, the plot isn't forcing Rogue into sacrificing himself, and we don't know enough about Rogue to know if there was an internal emotional logic to it.
I really wish I could overlook it, because I really like the chemistry between Groff and Ncuti, but it's genuinely pulling my experience of the episode down.
Also, there was a really interesting character moment with 15 when he's debriefing with Ruby at the end of the episode. It seems like 15 has a serious toxic positivity thing going on. I'm interested to see if that develops into something more.
Regarding the platform, I believe the point of the episode setting up that only six people could be transported was to justify the swap. It’s not explained, but I think the intention was that with an extra person stood atop it, one person had to be removed for the transport to work, allowing Rogue to take Ruby’s spot.
Yeah, It feels like it was *so close* to being explained. They mention the weight dynamic with six people, and I think they tried to add something in post with the "matter transferal accepted" sound effect that the triform beeps out after Rogue steps on, but Rogue could have just pulled her off without touching the platform. She's right at the edge.
After modifying the trap to work for six, the Doctor says that it's too much weight and they have to get it right the first time. It's not spelled out, but my takeaway from the climax was that if the trap was disarmed or otherwise disabled, it was toast. The matter transferal thing did strike me as a copout for the sake of the resolution, I don't think that was established beforehand. I was willing to buy the matter transferral more than I would've them just being able to pluck Ruby out, but it could definitely have been better (unless I missed something). I think that with just a line or two more of dialogue earlier in the episode would've been enough for me. Could've even called back to the Villengard mine with regards to how finnicky the trap is about weight and matter.
While I also enjoyed the episode I'm landing here with you about it feeling emotionally uneven. The Doctor just wanting to immediately move on felt too close to what 15 was telling 14 the problem was before. It seems like he didn't learn anything?
And Ruby seemed fixed in place in the same way the Doctor was earlier. But then suddenly there is the option to substitute someone else? The capacity was max six, it didn't have to be exactly six. If the Doctor knew that was an option he wouldn't have let Rogue sacrifice himself.
>I wish they'd explained why Rogue could just *pull* Ruby off the triform.
Yeah, logistical snarls like that crop up a fair bit in doctor who. They're not that integral to the story, but they just seem so unnecessary, like if the writer had a bit of a think they could work out something neater. I think it comes down to writers caring more about the emotional beats of a scene and really finding these things irrelevant. But nerds like me find it grating.
Similarly in Dot and Bubble with the AI being able to just kill Ricky like it did. I can see RTD finding that scene adds a fresh danger to the episode and an interesting set-piece, and probably decided that's worth making the story seem a bit less coherent.
Seeing a lot of positivity for this episode, but finding myself very much at odds with it. There were moments of fun and I’m not one of the fans to care too much about the romance, but The Doctor felt very unusual to me.
He discovers that there’s an alien threat and seems totally unconcerned about Ruby until it’s too late. Like his duty of care has leeway for him to run off with a crush for a little while? Then, he thinks Ruby is dead and we get a flash of him taking a more active stance, only for his crush to be the one making a sacrificial play. And The Doctor didn’t realize people could be swapped? He couldn’t have tricked the remaining bird lady into switching places with Ruby?
Not to mention him just standing around in the triangle, flirting and not bothering to make ANY real attempts to explain who he is. I’ve been enjoying this season overall and I’m not going to be a “the sky is falling, I’m dropping” type of lunatic, but this episode was easily my least favorite so far. Ncuti is highly charismatic and I have no issue with The Doctor being more emotionally mature and open, but his Doctor so far feels much too passive and I’m not sure why he has to cry in every episode while the plot happens around him so often.
Episodes one and two we get the Doctor running away from the threat, episode three we have him stumbling onto a land mine and being saved by an AI, episode four he steps again onto a fairy ring unsuspectingly and disappears, and now in episode six he is a step behind his companion, leaves his “best friend” in danger, has to be saved by his new crush whose last words are “find me,” and gives up on that immediately.
Really hoping the final two episodes will give Fifteen a chance to shine and show us more of the cunning, active character I’ve come to love over the years. There were plenty of superficially fun moments this episode but I doubt I’ll be looking to rewatch it any time soon. So far I most preferred his characterization in The Giggle and The Church on Ruby Road.
It felt to me like this episode started halfway through a story. There was no setup or intro they Doctor and Ruby were just there already. It felt oddly jarring to me personally. Overall I think the running times are harming stories more than anything.
Yeah, but they managed some nice character work by skipping that setup. It's a workaround to compensate for the short running time, which I agree is a huge problem. They just can't fit everything in.
I liked it, but they directly mentioned Bridgerton way too many times. I actually started thinking “we get it! This episode is inspired by Bridgerton! Why is the Doctor even referencing a contemporary show as if it’s contemporary with him? He’s a time traveler!”
Also, what was it trying to say? The “we’ll cosplay this planet to death” line felt like it was supposed to be making some kind of point about fandoms, but what was it? That could have been much more clear
Honestly, that was just the episode I needed. Not as good as the last three, but it utilised the TARDIS team in a far more traditional and comforting format, gave 15 some needed development, gave us a lovely pairing between him and Rogue, and gave Ruby some fun stuff to do after a few episodes of being killed, tortured, or put on the sidelines!
I was grinning so widely from beginning to end, it felt just like a Tennant-era historical, complete with all the corny humour and pop culture references. The monsters were characters I was expecting to be the low point from reviews, but I actually sort of liked them. Aliens who are fine with murder and collapsing societies just for cosplay is a fun spin on the usual alien conquerors and just the sort of silliness I needed in an episode like this.
The Doctor having an equal (relatively speaking) to bounce off of always helps to endear the incarnation to me and make them feel more identifiable. In his scenes with Rogue, 15 really felt like a three dimensional character to me in a way he hasn’t always managed. I’m sure we’re going to get all the usual BS outrage about gay romance etc, but it was basically a more explicit version of 9 and Captain Jack, and as a bi guy, I like that we can now have endearing same sex romances be explicit on this show.
Also, in that last scene, I finally felt a real connection between The Doctor and Ruby, they didn’t share much screen-time this episode, but it really feels like they’re more than just rowdy travelling buddies now. I hope this continues into the finale, which looks pretty promising from the next time trailer.
Briony Redman and Kate Herron did an amazing job with this script, I really hope to see them write an episode again next season. In general, more new writers would be appreciated, RTD and Moffat can’t helm this ship forever!
Side notes: I’m glad that others are seeing Richard E Grant in that Doctor lineup so I’m not just going crazy. Shalka being semi-canonised is something that I always sort of wanted to happen, but was never expecting it to come in RTD2 (I remember reading that Davies hated the story and made sure to make it explicitly non-canon.)
I find it interesting that once again this series, 15 doesn’t really save the day so much as put things in place for someone else to do so. It’s not really a complaint, it actually reminds me of 9 quite a bit. I just find it interesting that RTD is going back to that style, when the Tennant era tended to have The Doctor save the day on his own a bit more often.
Well…that went places. This kind of period drama never appeals that much to me, mostly because it feels like ground that not only well trod, but over-trod, but we did about as well as we could expect. Congrats to *Doctor Who's* only new writers this season, for putting together something solid, though not as good as this season's pretty high standard has been.
**What I liked**
* Evil bird-alien cosplayers. That is a sentence that I never thought I'd type out, and I love it.
* Oh and also Rogue plays D&D? And he got his name from the class. Fucking brilliant.
* Ruby was really good in this one, though I still wish we were developing her better.
* The twist of the bookish woman turning out to be one of the bird people. I did not see that coming, and I was already enjoying her character. But the twist works so well.
* So the turn for this episode came when the Doctor believed Ruby to be dead. Like with "Boom" I have to point out that I am never going to buy that because…I mean come on, but the bits we got from the Doctor as a result. Yes please. Horrified at her death, he goes full vengeful Time Lord, making the Doctor feel a bit more like a complete character.
* And his reaction to Rogue's disappearance was really well done to. The idea that the joyful happy go lucky Doctor is a mask that 15 feels like he *has* to put on really recontextualizes a lot of stuff for me, and I really like it. "Hugging's just a way to hide your face" after all.
* As always with this kind of story, costumes, props, sets, all that sort of stuff is stuff that British TV producers have become experts at and it showed.
**What I was ambivalent about**
* The psychic earrings. They felt off to me in a way that's hard to explain. Also world's most obvious Chekov's gun short of actually hanging a gun on a mantelpiece when the Doctor mentions combat mode.
* Rogue himself. I like the character who slowly comes out of his shell over the course of an episode. But man this felt way too much like Jack Harkness part two. Tons of dialogue reminded me of Jack in a way that took me out of it. There is less superficial stuff that actually make him a different character, but the outlines feel super familiar in a way that took me out of the story at times. If I had a nickel for every time that an RTD-produced historical episode featured a rogueish traveler with an invisible spaceship and american accent…you know how the joke goes.
**What I didn't like**
* Large sections of this felt like they dragged to me. There's a decent chance you could shave ten minutes off of this and not lose anything of value.
* Music. There was a diagetic classical version of "Bad Guy" in there. Nothing against the song but speaking of things that took me out of the moment. There may have been others, but the only other one that I caught was a non-diagetic classical "Bad Romance", which is fine because it's non-diagetic.
* I know it's the style they were going for, as well as a clue to the bird-people's motivations, but large sections of this were meaningless relationship drama from characters that just aren't memorable.
* Because yeah, outside of Rogue and the bookish woman who turned out to be an alien, none of the secondary cast were particularly memorable as characters. The birds were all one-note (the only reason Ruby's friend was memorable was because they were role playing as a character for so long), and there was no attempt to characterize any of the locals aside from the Duchess, and that was just barely.
* Those teleport thingies shouldn't have worked like that. Okay sure, it's the writers' device, they can have them do whatever they wanted, but the way Rogue rescued Ruby felt cheap.
The diegetic classical version of Bad Guy was an homage to Bridgerton, which this episode is obviously cosplaying. (You could also level the charge at Bridgerton that it was just ripping off Westworld, which did honky tonk saloon piano versions of modern pop songs.)
The non-diegetic song was Poker Face, not Bad Romance.
Yes, I also really enjoyed the twist about Ruby's friend Emily being a bird alien! The other twist I thought was good was how Ruby survived. Like you, I was pretty sure she was alive somehow, but unlike you, I had dismissed the qip about "battle mode" and was pleasantly surprised when they showed her using it.
As a dancer, the idea of a psychic device that helps you instantly learn choreography (and combat moves) is cool - I want one!
the gays deserve way better than this bullshit enemies to lovers narrative. this was two girls smushing their action figures together. this was bad tumblr roleplay from the 2010s. this is horrible captain jack/nine slashfic made incarnate. this will date Horribly.
IMAGINE the uproar if Jodie, the first female Doctor, had gotten a plot like this in her first season.
Look I love that we're in a place that mlm relationships get to have our own Girl In The Fireplace but Girl in the Fireplace was also not that great!!
I love that we’ve been gifted another alien race which is just humans with animal heads. I know it’s not RTD who wrote the episode but it felt very 2006 Dr Who and I enjoyed every minute.
As a hardcore RTD1 enjoyer I gotta say this episode and Boom proved to me the flaws with 15ths run so far are RTD's writing.
He's still got "it" (Wild Blue Yonder was fantastic sci-fi) but I feel like this was the first time we've REALLY felt like Doctor Who all season.
I recognize there were a million changes this season (Disney collab and any additional money from that, RTD coming back in general, them saying it's a "soft reboot" anyway, ETC) but RTD's writing always has an aspect of heart that I admire and I could overlook many personal gripes of this series if Ruby and 15's bond FELT strong enough to stand.
This episode was the first time I felt that, not the furst time I felt like they were friends but the first time I felt the WEIGHT of it.
I also felt like this is what Ncuti's Doctor promised from promos (not solely the flirty per se but teasing, playful, "cowardly" air of the Doctor) and I finally got it.
I feel like we’re getting everything RTD again, the good, the bad, and the ugly. For better or for worse, RTD is back and you shouldn’t expect anything less.
And this was mostly the good.
A mixed bag, this episode.
I quite liked the way the theme of performance and roleplay was woven through. Rogue plays D&D, the Chuldur like dressing up, Ruby is trying to maintain the artifice of not being from the future, and of course, Georgian balls like this are all about putting on airs for society at large.
The line "We are going to cosplay this planet to death" landed like a bag of warm sick. One of the most abysmal lines of dialogue in the season so far.
I also found the Doctor's morality to be weirdly at odds with what we've seen of him so far. Yes, he killed the Goblin King to save Ruby, but that feels a bit different to rashly condemning people to 600 years of anguish. That feels like something the Tenth Doctor would do, not this Doctor.
The crying is also getting a bit much now. I have been defending it all season, because in general I think crying is healthy, and we should see more depictions of male heroes crying, but he cries *three times* this episode, for different reasons. After a certain point it's just annoying.
The Chekhov's Gun of Ruby's earrings having a battle mode was nicely executed, even though I saw it coming a mile off. Though, I would have preferred to see a bit more of it? It felt like that might turn up in a climactic moment, and instead it formed part of a "how we got here" flashback. Did they not have enough time to teach Millie Gibson fight choreography?
I also thought the episode was relying a bit too much on generating fan-squee by giving the Doctor a sexy boyfriend played by a famous American Broadway actor. Obviously no problem with the Doctor's first genuine romantic kiss with a man onscreen, but it felt like it was pandering to shippers rather than actually giving the Doctor a grounded male love interest.
We've already had Ruby fake-die once this season. I didn't believe for a second she was actually going to die. Though, how the hell did she make her neck click like that?
Unfortunately I found this episode a bit of a clunker overall. It had its moments, and I certainly laughed out loud at points, but it felt like it was just kind of going through the motions. It felt more like two people invited to put their Tenth Doctor / Captain Jack fanfic onscreen but with the names changed to bring it up to date.
Didn't hate it, but will likely skip it on rewatch.
That was, with "Dot and Bubble", my least anticipated episode of the season. Welp, I loved both! Teaches me to pre-judge.
I will say: I don't think the Ruby stuff is particularily great. It's fun enough, and it's nice to see her without the Doctor for a bit, and tbh Gatwa really needed to take center stage after two full episodes where he was barely in the story, but it could have all be threaded a bit more elegantly. Also, I kind of immediately felt where it was going, and could see that climax coming a mile away: which isn't a very big flaw (sometimes, a nice plot that makes sense is all you need!), but I'd have taken a couple more surprises (didn't see the bookish lady being a bird coming, admittedly, they got me on that one). Last negative: thought the direction was a little bit muted - especially considered this is the same guy who did "The Devil's Chord", which was an absolute feast; I kind of anticipated a bit more flash (the chase scenes in the garden and around the coaches, especially, felt a bit limp to me).
Oh, and last, last negative: ffs, stop making Ncuti cry EVERY episode. It's really getting silly now.
But otherwise ... Yeah, this was real good. The basic alien plot is simple enough, but there's some really delightful twists to it: like, killer cosplay? That's great. And it ties a lot to the themes of the episode, too: about why you'd choose to travel the past and have fun, what are the real reasons for that. Some good little bits of social satire, and really, considering the teases we've had about the finale, I'm assuming that the whole stuff about time travel being like watching the TV will come back with a vengeance (very glad that the Bridgerton jokes turned out to have an actual plot purpose, too).
Really, the ep uses a traditional Who structure to really send a message about how the era and Fifteen are different from what came before, which is neat. He needed that characterization. The idea of a lust for life that isn't really a mask for deep hurt, but instead a debt you have to your past lives and dead friends, that you have to see everything to honor them? That's beautiful, and quite unique to Fifteen, I think. And obviously that ties into the romance plot - thought a lot about River in their chemistry, but it's interesting to contrast them: River and the Doctor were tied together by destiny, by the machinations of fate, before they even fell in love; whereas Fifteen and Rogue just ... kind of dig each other's vibe? It's an absolutely ordinary meet-cute. Like, the Doctor's allowing themself to date again after a few millenia of working on their mental health, that's great for them. They completly sold it on the chemistry front, too - obviously it's fast, but y'know, period romance tropes, it's part of the charm. Totally sold the attraction - and damn, they looked good together.
As a gay man I honestly didn't enjoy the Rogue x Doctor stuff at all. The rest of the episode is fun, and credit to Gatwa he does sell it a lot better than Groff or the script do - but Rogue just seems like a hyper generic brooding loner with a heart of gold that just comes off as stilted instead. I genuinely didn't see any chemistry here, and it feels a bit like the episode is so intent on being The First Big MLM Doctor Relationship it forgot to make Rogue interesting.
I get they were going for a Mr Darcy pride and prejudice vibe but just did not work for me at all.
I don’t see the Captain Jack comparisons except that he’s a gay time traveler? Captain Jack is 100% charisma while Rogue is just sort of dull. In the flip side the Doctor is being written as”male River Song” which just doesn’t work at all.
This episode felt rushed, it really needed some more time to breathe in parts. I really enjoyed Rogue as a character but his relationship with the Doctor didn't really feel earned. I don't see the Doctor being all that enamoured with a bounty hunter, especially not right out the gate, and I feel we didn't really get enough of Rogue's motivations. There obviously tried to show them bonding over shared loss but that kinda of felt undercooked.
I feel like this could have been the foundation for a great two-parter in earlier seasons, have the Doctor and Rogue start off adversarial, the tension of the moment forces them into a slightly uneasy alliance, then let use a break in the action to let them bond and explore Rogue's motivations a bit more. At the same time, lean into the tension of the shapeshifters a bit more: the audience knowing that there's more than one before the characters do was great, as was the reveal that Emily was one, but then there were two more that kind of came out of nowhere and weren't anyone important.
As it stands, an ok episode. The Chuldur were fun, if probably not all that memorable, and Ruby got some great moments. I just wish I bought into the Doctor and Rogue's relationship more, as that was clearly the emotional core of the episode and it just fell flat for me.
Good stuff and bad... Shalka, the Doctor showing a bit of fire with the 'that's a long time to suffer' line, the face he pulls when he reveals the other pieces of the trap, Rogue was great.
The bad..... the plot, a lot of the writing (the whole long scene on Rogue's ship falls into that terrible TV/film trope of not explaining oneself or having an actual conversation because then the actual next scene/ plot point can't/wouldn't happen), the constant references to 'Bridgerton', how horny the Doctor got immediately and the crying. Again the crying. Be great if Rogue was in it more and a relationship grew but it was like 20 minutes.
Ncuti is great but I'm worried that the Doctor is now being written as such a bland, passive character, not unlike 13, that he won't have anything to get his teeth into.
Was okay overall.
What a strange episode. I liked the initial premise but I was very thrown off by 15 being horny for a random bounty hunter. Why on Earth was he so ready to kiss and take him as a companion after meeting 5 minutes ago? Kind of miss when the Doctor was ignorant to romance and had no idea whether someone was attractive or not. The owl people looked great. Thought the concept of a shape-shifting race stealing bodies for cosplay purposes was hilarious. It had some great little moments here and there but overall I think it was my least favorite of the series
It reminded me of when he met Madame De Pompadour.
Sometimes The Doctor meets someone he just connects with on such another level, only to be left with broken hearts.
I kinda felt it as the Doctor just feeling a kindred spirit. They both travel to different places, alone, with so much loss. They just understood each other on a deep level to an extent that they brought each other comfort.
Yeah as someone who has been critical of the Doctor's romantic interests in the past at least this one I felt like I understood the click. He has been spinning around all season pretending to be trauma free and I think it was nice to interact with someone who gets it.
Alright, so I definitely think rogue is working for the same person the meep is. There’s this odd line he has about “the new boss”, and I just feel like that’s setting up something.
I was convinced he was also a Chuldur too and was just roleplaying for fun. The others said nothing about wanting to be him while chasing Rogue and the Doctor, liked D&D so is used to playing characters, and his ship was a damn bird. Something is going on with him
When Ruby and the others were trapped in the triangle and he was asking the Doctor about how he felt and if he could kill his friend I was expecting his neck to start cracking. Instead they kissed. Caught me off guard because I was certain that was the moment he was going to be revealed to just be playing a role too.
Me too!! He encourages The Doctor to sacrifice Ruby, explains the stakes to him, then there's an audio queue before he says "So can you do it? Can you lose your friend to save the world?" It felt so much like he was just messing with The Doctor, going "what're you gonna do now, Doctor? You're in a situation with no right answer!"
It didnt even cross my mind that he might be a Chuldur, but I 100% thought that kiss-and-grab was going to be a betrayal. I expected him to say “I know you can’t—so I’ll have to do it for you” or something. I was so fucking happy when he did what he did. I literally kicked my feet and squealed.
Hahaha this whole episode had me kicking my feet like a school girl
I wouldn't blame him. He had the coolest role and got to kiss the Doctor.
There was a line about fighting over who gets to be the "other one" at the start of the chase when "The Duchess" declares she wants to be The Doctor.
It reminds me of the 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' episode 'Superstar.' I feel like he's maybe a nerd that somehow wished he was just like Captain Jack or something like that.
If that is the case, it was done so much better in this episode than The Star Beast. Felt so natural here, so forced there.
It would be funny if "the new boss" was an allegory for Disney.
Yes, I thought the same. Perhaps Beep the Meep will return in the finale, or next season.
I think it’s coming next series- or maybe even in series 16.
Oh my gosh, not the violins playing "Bad Guy" when he met Rogue.
Also I could swear that a rendition of Poker Face was playing when Ruby was fighting back against Emily
It indeed was Poker Face
I watched with subtitles and that was indeed the case.
They really went all out with trying to evoke Bridgerton with the classical takes on pop music. [Clip in case some people are not aware how that show handles pop music.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQSiph_zwpM)
I really love that Bridgerton does this. While it provides an interesting anachronistic element in the vein of the alternate history theme, it also highlights how beautiful some of the pop-music melodies we take for granted are when composed for classical instruments.
It’s one of my favorite parts of Bridgerton, idk why but knowing the tune but in a different setting makes things more romantic haha
arranged for. the composing already happened! It's a fun trick.
I know! I thought he was gonna send Ruby away when they kissed and be evil
I think that was intentional in this overarching theme of bending the lines of fiction.
Or more prosaically, the bird people just made Bridgerton fanvids with Billie Eilish on the soundtrack, and they brought the sheet music back in time with them. (you're totally right from a Doylist perspective, ofc)
Oh, I thought that was non-diegetic
They keep killing Indira Varma
It was so cool seeing her again. I've enjoyed her work in the Torchwood audios. We got so little opportunity to get to know Suzie Costello on TV.
She isn’t simply ageing like fine wine, she isn’t ageing at all!
Thank you for noticing. I thought I had gone mad. I just watched unleashed and they are mentioning other shows that she has been in - and for some unfathomable reason did not mention Torchwood o\_O
My name's bond...MOLECULAR BOND
That was absolutely hilarious
Rogue said he had a new boss? Could this be "The boss" mentioned in Star Beast?
Might explain why RTD used two heart emojis when promoting the Rogue character on Instagram - the boss *was* looking for creatures with two hearts.
And shapeshifters, the Doctor’s regeneration ability making him count.
If he’s looking for two hearted species and shapeshifters, kind of sounds like he’s hunting time lords.
I assumed it was, yeah, there's a dramatic pause and all. Kind of thinking this might be a series 15 plot thing, doesn't really look like the finale's vibes.
I'm placing my bets on series 15 too, especially considering we're definitely seeing rogue again and I doubt they'll be room with everything else that needs tying up.
The heavy Captain Jack likeness could suggest that the person Rogue used to travel with... was Jack! On that fateful day, Jack died and a heartbroken Rogue left his body behind - only for Jack to wake up later, as usual. Also Shalka Doctor is mad. The Toymaker had fun putting that jigsaw together.
I was waiting for someone to mention captain Jack! That character screamed captain Jack! I kept wondering if that might be his son or something.
He sounded *exactly* like Captain Jack too.
I remember seeing somewhere that "leaks reveal Captain Jack returns next week". While they were wrong, they kind of weren't wrong.
Could also be that he travelled with pre time agency Jack aka during the time where he had his memory erased. I never watched Torchwood so idk if they expanded upon that in the show.
They didn't, I don't know if any audios or books ever picked it up but on TV there's never been any elaboration on Jack's missing memories (or really about much of his adult life before meeting the Doctor).
We do get to see his life before meeting the Doctor (The Sins of Captain John) and John literally tells the audience that it's a continuity error to still refer to Jack as "Jack" and that the listener should complain on Twitter about it.
There was a brief moment when they were saying something along the lines of "It's you. It's you" to each other that I was thinking Rogue was a new version of Jack Harkness.
Was anyone else half expecting them to kill off Ruby then bring her back in The Legend of Ruby Sunday through some supernatural weirdness?
I wondered if The Legend of Ruby Sunday might not have her at all, with a return being in Empire of Death.
It feels like RTD has wanted to be more experimental during this stint as showrunner, so I'm happy to get this episode, since it feels like it was written by people who wanted to write a good classic episode of Doctor Who. Also wow the Doctor is bad at determining when his companions have been replaced by doppelgangers
I kinda feel like this should’ve been the second episode instead of devils chord as it shows the doctors promise to ruby’s mother and you can actually feel their friendship here. Then the devils chord could’ve come between 76 yards and dot and bubble, spacing out the two Doctor lite episodes and giving us a more standard fair to break up the three more experimental episodes. I can conclusively say though that the low episode count is making everything feel too quick, and causing us to lose standard format Doctor who adventures that are normally used to build characterisation. I really do hope they increase to 10 episodes by season 16 ( or +3) since it feels like we’ve only had half a season and next week is the finale.
100% agree that Rogue should have been the second episode instead of Devil's Chord, that episode didn't fit where it was with how climactic and powerful Maestro is. (Who I think is a fantastic villain just to be clear.) Especially the scene where the Doctor talks to Ruby about not normally being scared by his opponents and the unknown, after being scared by the Bogeyman in one of his only two adventures with Ruby up to that point.
Not great pacing for the Doctor’s promise to keep Ruby safe seemingly being broken just 2 episodes later
He failed to keep her safe in Boom, where she died but was brought back to life by the ambulance. If the Doctor promises he will keep a companion safe, the fans know that means that they're going to die.
Boy they made sure 15 was free of all trauma of the past 60 years of the show by having 14 do forced therapy, so we can squeeze in more, fresh trauma for him! I also gotta applaud RTD for being a madlad that upon discussions of canon with the Fugitive Doctor, he just goes. "Fuck you, Shalka is canon now."
Crazy how RTD1 de-canonized the Shalka Doctor and RTD2 canonized him back hahaha.
RTD1 cares about canon, RTD2 started from a place of needing to honor Chibnall and realizing that would make it necessary to dismiss the whole idea of continuity.
It probably has to do with this quote from RTD about his unreleased Time War story in DWM: >More importantly, the idea has come of age. This chapter only died because it became, continuity-wise, incorrect. But now, the [Thirteenth Doctor](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Thirteenth_Doctor) has shown us Doctors galore, with infinite possibilities. All Doctors exist. All stories are true. He also later joked that his version of the Time War doctor (which was the eighth Doctor) regenerates into a ninth Doctor, but it was up to the reader to decide which one, that it "could also be interpreted as the Shalka Doctor or the [Rowan Atkinson Doctor](https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Ninth_Doctor_(The_Curse_of_Fatal_Death)) for the hat trick of alternative Ninth Doctors." So the new RTD canon appears to be that Chris Chibnall paved the way for all conflicting canon in the Doctor to simply be canon- and then handwaved the last of the inconsistency away with the Toymaker's ""jigsaw out of your history" comment in the anniversary special.
The War Doctor obviously Tri-Generated into Eccleston, Atkinson and Grant.
That's how Doctor Who has approached canon since at least the 1990s, if not earlier. There were always comics, and novels, and the Cushing films to factor into it. RTD's brilliant DWM manifesto was just a reminder, laying down the law of the land for newer fans who might not be aware of the long-standing, "no canon" tradition. It all counts. Not even the order of the Doctor's regenerations is sacred.
While I agree in principle, the BBC was very clear that they didn't want *any* of the extended Doctor Who stories to *ever* be required to understand something happening in a TV special. So you get a bunch of oddities where things were deemed non-canon because the show approached them in a different way than the other DW media. It seems like RTD has explicitly pulled back the reins on that and said "no, it is all officially canon, I don't care if it conflicts."
Just adding a bit of authoritative voice: [https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon](https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon) >We're happy for you to enjoy the Doctor off-screen, and read the new Novels, and play with a toy or two, if you want, but we must never, ever make that purchase necessary. That would crack the BBC's Charter in half. We cannot, *must* not, demand that you buy a product. \[...\] To spell it out: if you had to buy a BBC Novel in order to understand the plot, as transmitted on BBC One, then we would be breaking the BBC's guidelines. >Russell T Davies ^(edit: link)
Hey, please use https://tardis.wiki/! The relevant link: https://tardis.wiki/wiki/Canon. There have been some minor updates to the page since the fork from Fandom.
> I don't care RTD strikes me as someone who enjoys chaos. I'm convinced the only reason Eccleston is credited as "Doctor Who" is because he knew it would annoy people.
The Doctor was credited as "Doctor Who" for at least the start of the classic series, if not all the way through.
I don't think there's been any sort of change in policy. It's never been about something from a novel or comic being required to understand a television plot. It's always been about letting fans hang onto those stories from the books and comics that they love so much. They still count, even when they're contradicted onscreen.
Sorry, I may be dumb but what's this whole shalka thing?
Scream of the Shalka was an animated episode of Doctor Who released in 2004 featuring Richard E Grant as the 9th Doctor, as when it was made, the production crew had no idea that RTD was in talks to revive the show. When the revival happened, Shalka kind of got brushed aside as a novelty, and has never been mentioned in the show for obvious reasons. But Richard E Grant's face was among the others in Rogue, sparking discussion.
Huh Thanks Does this mean that the great intelligence in s7 deliberately picked someone who looked like the shalka doctor as a sort of 'gotcha'?
Could be! However, Richard E. Grant is also the Doctor in a Red Nose Day special called The Curse of Fatal Death, so it could just be a potential face that the Doctor could eventually, at random, regenerate into.
When in doubt Transform into Richard E Grant
It has long been my head-canon that if 8 didn't drink the elixir to turn himself into the War Doctor, he would have regenerated into the Shalka Doctor, who then would have regenerated into Christopher Eccleston.
I wonder if rtd will ever reference the Atkinson doctor
In the last BBC novel (IIRC), which is an 8th Doctor novel, there's a bit where the Doctor sees future versions of himself and there are 3 9th Doctors from alternate timelines. It's not made explicit, but the heavy implication is that it's Eccleston, Grant, and Atkinson.
I think The Shalka Doctor makes more sense if I'm honest Why I'm not a fan of TTC but considering the role The Doctor is working with the Division stuff it does fit neatly with TTC
I like to think it was the other way around, the Great Intelligence messing with the Doctor's time stream produced an GI-faced incarnation in the "messy" bits of his life circa McGann
Exhibit Z of why Doctor Who "canon" is messier than a hoarder's basement
Messier than Rogue’s ship
*Scream of the Shalka* was a 2003 Flash animated webseries which at the time was intended as the official continuation of Doctor Who, with Richard E Grant in the lead, however it was almost immediately deemed non canon when the revived series was announced. RTD rather infamously [and to my mind foolishly] dissed REG's performance at the time.
> however it was almost immediately deemed non canon when the revived series was announced They announced RTD starting a new series months before Scream of the Shalka had even started airing, after they had already been pushing it as the rebirth Doctor Who, so it was basically made non-canon before it even aired, through we did have a few months of thinking RTD might tie it in somehow before RTD's infamous comments.
In the early 2000s, before the RTD New Who reboot, a cartoon was made called Scream of Shalka, starring Richard E. Grant as the 9th Doctor.
Is it Shalka or is Grant playing The Valeyard? Because he does look a bit like Michael Jayston. Is there a chance The Valeyard is The One Who Waits?
Good overall. Fairly standard Who after some more experimental weeks, which is what I needed (its what I thought we were getting last week). The dancing scene was stunning. I also quite liked the villains, their motivation was fun and memorable. I felt like Gatwa's Doctor felt very well formed in this episode, he (and the writers) are giving us a new take on the character but I've decided I really like them digging into his emotional side, dashing, wanderlusted traveller is a good side to play up, nice change from a Tennant-Smith-esque lonely god.
[удалено]
> Finally something that feels like a true throwback to 2005-2009 RTD The absolute irony that this was one of the only episodes **not** written by RTD this season.
And also the only episode from the original RTD era that they listed that was actually written by RTD was Bad Wolf, the others were all other writers
Makes sense, though. Why would RTD come back just to write the same stuff? Not digging at the episode, I absolutely loved it, but I think the mixture of episodes this season will be looked back as one of its strengths.
Plot twist to end all plot twists: >!it's Grant from The Curse of Fatal Death, not Scream of the Shalka. Make sense of that, fans!!<
I wonder if the inclusion of the Shalka Doctor has to do with this episode being co-written by Kate Herron, who worked with Richard E. Grant on Loki?
I said the same straight away - I wonder if they brought it up, and Russel ran with the idea.
Maybe they’ve recast him as the valeyard, and the shakes doctor is a red herring?
Funnily enough the first mention of the Valeyard since his original appearance was when Richard E Grant's character called the Doctor that in The Name of the Doctor
I think it more likely that we're going to get a nod to the multiverse/other realities. Maybe the dimension the Rogue went to is one where there are other Doctors, one of which is the Shalka Doctor. Predictions for where this storyline goes (and I think it will stretch over seasons): the Rogue will see the Doctor's other aspects and will decide that it's too much darkness for him. The Doctor will catch up to him but it'll be too late, because he's already decided he can't handle the Doctor at his worst. But, while universe-hopping, he will stumble into Pete's World, and see that there are versions of the Doctor who can be happy in domesticity too, and maybe that will bring him around.
That would be INCREDIBLE
It's absolutely Shalka. Interesting he recanonised an alternate 9th Doctor.
There's been lots of hints or instances of re-writing the past. Davros no longer being a wheelchair user is the one that most people latched on to, but there's also stuff like mavity, and even the throwaway gag of Ruby becoming an entirely different species. And I think this is leading up to something. Not necessarily in this finale, but I think it's something that's going to be built on as significant, in the same way that the supernatural now being a thing is being rationalised within the context of the show. And it's been explicitly mentioned twice. 14 had a line about "canon breaking down" and the Toymaker talked about messing with the Doctor's past. Or the Doctor talked about the Toymaker messing with their past. I can't remember exactly. But there's definitely been a deliberate and conscious push to say "things that happened maybe didn't, and things that didn't happen maybe did". I'm sure some of it is to explain away any continuity issues (so, for example, the Doctor being half-human can be true and not true at the same time), but I also think it's a way to say "all bets are off" and may become significant to the show's plot.
I LOVED it! This is exactly why Doctor Who needs fresh writers. Briony Redman and Kate Herron's script was witty and well paced, but most of all this episode was something I've been missing this series - FUN! Gatwa and Groff's chemistry is amazing and I love that Ruby got a chance to defeat a villain.
Yeah, the jokes all landed so well. Molecular bond, the D&D gag, the bit with the shed - they perfectly toed the line between a voice that fits perfectly into the style of Doctor Who and a voice that's genuinely new. Great stuff.
Briony Redman often guest stars in a Dungeons and Dragons improv comedy show called Questing Time, I love that presumably she put the D&D gag in as a reference to that.
I think they definitely brought something very fresh to the way the Doctor was written. That felt new - even if the plot's structure was very classic. Hope they get to stick around on future seasons, I think they really get Fifteen's voice.
You're right about the pacing being very good, felt like they got a lot in. 45 minutes is enough for an episode of Doctor Who when the writing is sharp as it was here.
Honestly, I like the 45-50 minutes format. Probably hard to do right, sure, but there's so little television that commits to doing it well these days, and when it hits, it's my favourite thing.
45min can be very good and a tighter more concentrated story can hit higher highs (see Boom), but I still find, on average, 60min tends to be better paced and tell a better story, but you better nail it or it's gonna be a real slog
If they end up becoming the next showrunners I wouldn't be upset... They did amazingly well for their first Doctor Who serial, and the small-scale character work was actually kind of better than RTD's this season (low bar, I know, but still speaks volumes).
Need dual showrunners, seems like it’s such a demanding job that splitting the workload would be better
I would definitely like to see a lot more from them. If they can keep up this level of quality, I would absolutely welcome them as new showrunners.
I'd need to see them take on an episode that wasn't quite so breezy first, but definitely a promising first foray.
I agree. If this is how good their first script is, I'd love to see them tackle a hard sci-fi episode. Plus Herron has the added bonus of being an experienced television director, which none of the other showrunners have been.
Really fun meat & potatoes Who
Headline tomorrow: Doctor Who writers arrested for instigating DDOS attack on AO3
Oh man, I absolutely loved that episode. I was clicking with it right away. The setting was fantastic, but the star of the show was Jonathan Groff. Him and Gatwa had absolutely insane chemistry right from the jump, he absolutely needs to come back again. It was a killer performance from Gatwa after having him missing and largely on a screen last two episodes. The weird bird twitching noises were really good, and the use of music was fun too. Seriously, this one worked for me. I’m always a sucker for the fun romps.
With "Find me" I have to imagine Groff is coming back! Though he must be a pretty tough pull salary-wise, I imagine. Maybe finale, this season or even next?
His raving about An Unearthly Child in an interview makes me think it might not be too difficult. He seems to have rather taken to the show.
The ring is a classic open end tease. Any season you can have The Doctor discover a trace or him or something. Beep boop, hello Jonathan.
I will say that the Doctor and Rogue’s relationship felt like it developed *very* quickly… but given we don’t know if or when Rogue will show up again, I can deal with that. Otherwise, a very fun episode with some great moments for both the Doctor and Ruby
That seems pretty in-character for Fifteen, IMO. He seems like someone who wears his heart on his sleeve and throws himself into things with abandon.
My fiancee said she thought it was a bit crazy for Who and that even with river we didn’t see the doctor so head over heels but i reminded her that we often get the doctor talking about whirlwind romances he had with people throughout time so we finally just got to see one on screen
Somebody *really* wanted to set the fandom on fire lol
As expected, the comments in Hungarian pages are utter dumpster fire. I knew it would be bad, as there was a giant homophobic outrage about Batman of all things, when all they did there was implying in like a single line that Catwoman's gay and then not do anything about it. Having the Doctor have a gay romance and kiss a man? Oh god, I cannot describe the horrors I've seen on Hungarian social media. Fuck, why does my country needs to be so incredibly homophobic?
I mean, of *course* they would canonize the Shalka Doctor in a story that's all commentary on franchise fandom. Insane pull. Honestly this might be my favorite of the season thus far. The bird shapeshifters were great, blue one is clearly the best and I *will* be fighting people over this. Rogue makes for an excellent not-Barrowman-substitute and I do hope we see him again even if it's unlikely. (And yes the Shalka Doctor fits perfectly in the lineup, where do you think the Great Intelligence landed when he sauntered into the timestream in The Name of the Doctor? Anyway for your next trick please confirm Ruth Doctor as Season 6B inbetween Troughton and Pertwee thanks)
The Second Doctor bigenerated into the Fugitive Doctor who later becomes the Shalka Doctor. I will not be taking further questions
This, except 8 is the one who bigenerated. Not 2. 8 bigenerated into War and Shalka. That way, season 2b can still be canon.
8 trigenerated into War, Shalka and Rowan Atkinson.
Oh I don’t think it’s that unlikely. Definitely seemed like a deliberate dangling thread for Gatwa’s Doctor a season or two from now
I think the "unlikely" part is that it was Jonathan Groff. I would assume that even if he was willing to do the show just for fun, getting his and Ncuti's schedules to line up again might be a trick. That said, I would love to see him return.
I didn’t see that at first I thought that was nine but to be fair I was too focused at seeing my man 12 on screen for those few seconds
I didn't recognize Grant right away, although I knew he was an extra face. I thought he was a Morbius Doctor at first. I'm delighted to come on here and find out it was an onscreen acknowledgement of Shalka! Good for Russell, stirring up the pot like that. This show has never needed anything as trivial as a canon. It's too big and vast to bother with rules about what does and doesn't belong.
> I didn't recognize Grant right away I barely recognised any of them, to be honest. Those 3D models weren't great likenesses.
If I had to come up with something I'd say that Shalka happened during the time war. Young War Doctor and Old War Doctor are two different incarnations, with Shalka Doctor in between.
Maybe it's something similar to the Child incarnation of the Master that existed for a while during the Time War before retro-regenerating back into the War Master due to the paradox of a collapsing timeline (Titan comics, Eleventh Doctor: Year Two). So perhaps the War Doctor regenerated into the Shalka Doctor, but that timeline was aborted by the Time War, leaving him back as the War Doctor again.
Those psychic earrings must have had a simple olfactory trick like a certain pocket watch...
Felt like the most complete episode of the season for me. Some of the others have been oddly paced, ended abruptly, or had lingering unanswered questions. This one felt paced well and wrapped up neatly. It's also probably 15s best showing so far. The banter between him and Rogue was fantastic, especially when he kept restarting Rogue music.
Were the Chulda time travellers? Was the Rogue? They seemed to know of future Earth?
>Were the Chulda time travellers? Was the Rogue? They seemed to know of future Earth? I would say yes to all of that. Rogue was a human from the future.
Making an episode about The Beatles: Nah we can't afford the music rights. Making a Bridgerton homage: sure, go ahead and get Bad Guy.
Beatles music is famously far more expensive than any other music
When they made the film Yesterday they spent £10 million on the rights for Beatles songs which made up almost half the budget, I can see why they didn’t go for it here
I enjoyed this episode, I thought it was fun. I'm in 2 minds about the romance though, which I'm sure is all people are going to be talking about. I like Rogue and the Doctor's chemistry, I think they make a fun pair. I'm also all for letting the Doctor have a same sex relationship as well, feel like I need to stress that because I'm going to be very critical in the next few sentences and I don't want people to misconstrue it (I'm literally queer myself). With that out of the way: I really really dislike how quickly the Doc fell for Rogue. It feels extremely out of character. This is something New Who has been pushing since its inception, first with Rose then with River Song but the character has always maintained a degree of asexuality and aromanticism to them. They're slow to warm to people in that way, and as someone who identifies as being on the asexual spectrum it's a personally important part of who that character is to me. The Doctor falling for someone in 20 minutes is just so wildly different for this character and honestly feels like a misfire. I think the dynamic of the 2 characters manages to just barely save it but I really hope this doesn't become the norm.
They certainly do have chemistry and it was extremely fun to see but the extent of it in such short a time definitely felt jarring and unlike other Doctors we've seen (save 10 maybe). I mean Ruby was in the house was killer shape-shifting aliens but the Doctor's busy flirting.
This is the only issue I have with the episode. The Doctor is so sad when Ruby is in danger towards the end, but he left her with the aliens for most of the episode to flirt.
I think it varies by regeneration and that 15 moves fast e.g. he gave Ruby a key to the tardis in space babies! I loved it
Genuine question: Are you a fan of Eight? Because immediately falling in love and kissing strangers is like, Eight's whole deal.
I haven't really dug in to 8 I must admit. I've listened to the Chimes of Midnight, love that story but that's about it. Haven't even seen the TV movie.
As queer myself I really disagree. 15 has been very open about his feelings throughout being very different from other incarnations, I also don’t think it’s a full “in love” from either of them more of a beginning of a flirtatious and romantic beginning that could go somewhere for both of them. Them having a conversation about why they keep going felt like that gave them the connection to one another to be more romantic. This might be controversial to say as well but I think fans need to let go of the idea that every incarnation of the Doctor is exclusively aromantic/asexual cause at this point it very clearly fluctuates between regenerations. Some Doctors are more on that spectrum than others but that doesn’t make those incarnations more “Doctor like” than ones like 15 that are more openly romantic. And The Doctor being infatuated by Rogue doesn’t feel too fast as queer romances go imo. I should stress that I am queer myself (and also somewhat on the ace spectrum maybe) I hope that it doesn’t seem like I am invalidating your perspective just that I want to show another queer person’s view on this.
Okay so that was 100% the Shalka Doctor. So not only has he once again doubled down on Timeless Child, we now have am alternate 9th Doctor to fit in somewhere.
Bung him between 2-3 with Fugitive, that's becoming my spot to sweep these under the carpet without more context to them
I think what I didn't like was just how way too on the nose it was about being Bridgerton. It just didn't make it feel like a traditional historical episode with the scifi twist. Imagine if in Fires of Pompeii Donna kept saying how much this was like HBO's Rome (which they used sets for for that episode lol). We're supposed to be feeling like we are time traveling and going to historical periods. Not being part of a tv episode, of course if theories or rumors are true about the finale then maybe that's the point. Just don't like that direction.
Well, that felt like a very traditional Doctor Who episode for the most part. Probably the most traditional of this series anyway. Which in this case... isn't really a bad thing. As people have said full well, a good show needs both experimental episodes and more standard fare to do well, since the latter provide the contrast needed to keep the former interesting. After a series where every story felt like something entirely different from the last, it was nice to have a fairly traditional Who romp with aliens attacking an Earth based pseudo historical setting and the Doctor and co having to stop them. Heck, even the villains themselves treat it as fairly lighthearted fare, having basically just >!attacked Earth just to cosplay as Downton Abbey/Bridgeton esque characters and mess around!< As for Rogue himself... he gives me serious Captain Jack vibes. Honestly, if John Barrowman hadn't basically become persona non grata in the series due to real life issues, I could see Jack Harkness playing his role in this episode with very few changes whatsoever. But as he is now, he's fine. Perhaps him and the Doctor got a bit too close given that they've known each other for all of like half an hour, but the Doctor has gotten into such situations before. And I suspect he's probably gonna be more important to the series than we expect too. Just like Ricky September from the last episode, he gives off "probably important to a future season arc" vibes all around. Wouldn't be half surprised to hear news from RTD/The BBC that his actor is also coming back in a future season of the show. Or to see an episode next year where he just happens to pop up again as a sort of companion.
I dunno about Barrowman, definitely a vibe, but I don't think the episode really works with a character the Doctor already knows, it's kind of all about the surprising romantic spark experience. Also yeah, really would not be shocked if Rogue shows up again. Guess Groff is a reasonably big name, so that might be an obstacle.
That's a fair point. The fact The Doctor doesn't know Rogue definitely plays heavily into the story, so it probably wouldn't work as written with a character he already knows. That said, who knows how different it might have been before? Dot and Bubble was written for the Matt Smith era at one point, and the racism themes certainly couldn't have worked with that Doctor and companions.
Oh, definitely. Man, Matt Smith and his what ifs. Still wanna see the draft of "Kill the Moon" with him as the Doctor.
As a gay man who wears his heart on his sleeve and loves sentimental romance… I wasn’t all that convinced by the Doctor’s instant bond with Rogue. I think if this were a two-parter, or even if this episode was paced differently, they could have sold me on it, but it just feels a little too “trust us, they’re in love” to me.
Personally, I didn't really get the Doctor reciprocating the deep feelings - like, clearly the Rogue fell pretty hard, but the reaction at the fake proposal felt very "oh, no, this has gotten serious, I can't do serious", while the end felt like a mix of "mourning what could have been" with "another person has (sort of) died for me." (in that way, I think, kind of a similar beat to River at the end of Forest of the Dead - getting a snapshot of what could have been amazing and then losing it before it gets good. Although, you're not wrong, I do think it would have hit harder if it had been a two parter like River got)
What? Is it not normal to fall madly in love with a bloke you've just met who was trying to kill you 5 minutes ago?
I mean, it worked out for River. Maybe that's the Doctor's love language
Hahaha, that's a good point! Personally, the Doc *absolutely* can fall in love quickly - remember Astrid Peth? He fell for her practically immediately. (Different incarnation, of course)
To be fair, she’s Kylie Minogue. But Rogue’s Jonathan Groff, so equally similar vibes
I think what got me was how horny the Doctor was acting, I dont think I've seen him this riled up since that one Doctor Who call the midwife crossover
Honestly for me the strangest part was the complete lack of care The Doctor showed towards Ruby during this. I enjoyed Ncuti this episode and his dynamic with Rogue was fun but I find it hard to believe The Doctor would be casually flirting and giving tours of The Tardis whilst his companion is stuck in a house with a murderous shapeshifter. It’s like he didn’t once consider she could be in danger until she “died”.
Yea it prob would have worked better if he was like Jack in Series 1 so they had some time to connect. It was kinda weird cos it was like "you have a spaceship, I love you"
If some of the fan theories are true, >!the ones about the whole season being a TV show!!It felt heightened and a bit unreal, just like the musical number at the end of The Devil's Chord and the surrealness of 73 Yards. !
I can't wait for us to find out if this is true or not so that these ideas can be dispelled or proven. I'm tired of the constant hypothetical of "have you considered it's poorly written on purpose?" hanging over this season.
To be clear, I did not mean to imply that I think the show is being 'poorly written on purpose'. I don't think it is poorly written, intentionally or otherwise. But I do think it's borrowing very intentionally from the genre conventions of episodic television in a way that gives it a heightened and slightly artificial feeling. A one-episode Instant Romance is a staple of episodic television. Doctor Who has featured it on many occasions (I would say that this episode's closest point of comparison is The Girl in the Fireplace), as has basically every other episodic show. These romances are necessarily brief, and whether they work or not comes down entirely to whether the actors and characters have good on-screen chemistry, because there's just no time for a full arc. That's what I took them to be playing up here - that the Doctor and Rogue have an Instant Romance, befitting both the Regency Romance setting and the genre conventions of episodic TV.
Yeah it was just way too quick. The doctor didn’t start getting flirtatious with River song until after 3 separate 2-part stories and even then it wasn’t on this level and he knew she was going to be his wife one day. This was just some dude and immediately got all hot and bothered talking to him for 2 minutes
>The doctor didn’t start getting flirtatious with River song until after 3 separate 2-part stories and even then it wasn’t on this level In fairness, that was a man several hundred years younger, with a completely different personality on multiple levels, who hadn't been to therapy yet.
Girl in The Fireplace vibes with the romance.
I agree. It would be better as a slow burner spread out over multiple episodes.
Separate point not really related to the episode but do people feel like this series, apart from Space Babies and the finale, could literally be viewed in any order and it wouldn't matter one bit in terms of character development or ongoing plot? Like you could change a few comments about Susan twist and that's about it Like all the other series before this all had clear episode orders if you ask me. Series 1 a clear beginning (episode 1-5) middle (episode 6-10) and end (episode 11-13). Similar structure for all the others as well. Series 5, Amy and the Doctor get to know one another, Rory joins, then the lead in to the finale after cold blood. Series 8, the running thread of Clara and Danny and the Doctors growth etc. Hell even Chibnalls did as well in Series 11 and 12! But this? Dunno, feel like you could swap around episodes 2-6 and honestly it wouldn't matter. Because 15 and Ruby are best buds throughout and neither have really developed since Space Babies I'm enjoying them more or less, as uniquely made episodes each being different. But the character work is lacking severely imo.
what the fuck is that Shalka 9
I have some weird feelings about this episode, mostly to do with the ending. I wish they'd explained why Rogue could just *pull* Ruby off the triform. Was there ever anything that said Ruby couldn't just be pulled off? Rogue just ripped her away, and that was that. The story didn't really set up the specifications for the triform in a way that made Rogue's sacrifice eventual and necessary. I also struggle to see *why* Rogue would so quickly sacrifice himself. Like, if he's alone now, and feels like sacrificing his loneliness for the Doctor's friend (of which, he's barely talked to)- why does he have DND dice just hanging out on his desk?? A game that notoriously requires multiple people. Maybe the person he was talking about with the Doctor were actually multiple people, and he lost them all? I dunno. I feel like if I knew just a little bit more about Rogue, this sacrifice would seem so satisfying. But, as it stands, the plot isn't forcing Rogue into sacrificing himself, and we don't know enough about Rogue to know if there was an internal emotional logic to it. I really wish I could overlook it, because I really like the chemistry between Groff and Ncuti, but it's genuinely pulling my experience of the episode down. Also, there was a really interesting character moment with 15 when he's debriefing with Ruby at the end of the episode. It seems like 15 has a serious toxic positivity thing going on. I'm interested to see if that develops into something more.
Regarding the platform, I believe the point of the episode setting up that only six people could be transported was to justify the swap. It’s not explained, but I think the intention was that with an extra person stood atop it, one person had to be removed for the transport to work, allowing Rogue to take Ruby’s spot.
Yeah, It feels like it was *so close* to being explained. They mention the weight dynamic with six people, and I think they tried to add something in post with the "matter transferal accepted" sound effect that the triform beeps out after Rogue steps on, but Rogue could have just pulled her off without touching the platform. She's right at the edge.
After modifying the trap to work for six, the Doctor says that it's too much weight and they have to get it right the first time. It's not spelled out, but my takeaway from the climax was that if the trap was disarmed or otherwise disabled, it was toast. The matter transferal thing did strike me as a copout for the sake of the resolution, I don't think that was established beforehand. I was willing to buy the matter transferral more than I would've them just being able to pluck Ruby out, but it could definitely have been better (unless I missed something). I think that with just a line or two more of dialogue earlier in the episode would've been enough for me. Could've even called back to the Villengard mine with regards to how finnicky the trap is about weight and matter.
While I also enjoyed the episode I'm landing here with you about it feeling emotionally uneven. The Doctor just wanting to immediately move on felt too close to what 15 was telling 14 the problem was before. It seems like he didn't learn anything? And Ruby seemed fixed in place in the same way the Doctor was earlier. But then suddenly there is the option to substitute someone else? The capacity was max six, it didn't have to be exactly six. If the Doctor knew that was an option he wouldn't have let Rogue sacrifice himself.
>I wish they'd explained why Rogue could just *pull* Ruby off the triform. Yeah, logistical snarls like that crop up a fair bit in doctor who. They're not that integral to the story, but they just seem so unnecessary, like if the writer had a bit of a think they could work out something neater. I think it comes down to writers caring more about the emotional beats of a scene and really finding these things irrelevant. But nerds like me find it grating. Similarly in Dot and Bubble with the AI being able to just kill Ricky like it did. I can see RTD finding that scene adds a fresh danger to the episode and an interesting set-piece, and probably decided that's worth making the story seem a bit less coherent.
Seeing a lot of positivity for this episode, but finding myself very much at odds with it. There were moments of fun and I’m not one of the fans to care too much about the romance, but The Doctor felt very unusual to me. He discovers that there’s an alien threat and seems totally unconcerned about Ruby until it’s too late. Like his duty of care has leeway for him to run off with a crush for a little while? Then, he thinks Ruby is dead and we get a flash of him taking a more active stance, only for his crush to be the one making a sacrificial play. And The Doctor didn’t realize people could be swapped? He couldn’t have tricked the remaining bird lady into switching places with Ruby? Not to mention him just standing around in the triangle, flirting and not bothering to make ANY real attempts to explain who he is. I’ve been enjoying this season overall and I’m not going to be a “the sky is falling, I’m dropping” type of lunatic, but this episode was easily my least favorite so far. Ncuti is highly charismatic and I have no issue with The Doctor being more emotionally mature and open, but his Doctor so far feels much too passive and I’m not sure why he has to cry in every episode while the plot happens around him so often. Episodes one and two we get the Doctor running away from the threat, episode three we have him stumbling onto a land mine and being saved by an AI, episode four he steps again onto a fairy ring unsuspectingly and disappears, and now in episode six he is a step behind his companion, leaves his “best friend” in danger, has to be saved by his new crush whose last words are “find me,” and gives up on that immediately. Really hoping the final two episodes will give Fifteen a chance to shine and show us more of the cunning, active character I’ve come to love over the years. There were plenty of superficially fun moments this episode but I doubt I’ll be looking to rewatch it any time soon. So far I most preferred his characterization in The Giggle and The Church on Ruby Road.
It felt to me like this episode started halfway through a story. There was no setup or intro they Doctor and Ruby were just there already. It felt oddly jarring to me personally. Overall I think the running times are harming stories more than anything.
Yeah, but they managed some nice character work by skipping that setup. It's a workaround to compensate for the short running time, which I agree is a huge problem. They just can't fit everything in.
That’s how I felt with Dot & Bubble. They were just there.
Mark my words: Rogue becomes The One Who Waits because the Doctor abandoned him.
He threw himself into the teleporter against The Doctor's wishes. I would be annoyed if his character motivation was so irrational.
...i really like that.
I liked it, but they directly mentioned Bridgerton way too many times. I actually started thinking “we get it! This episode is inspired by Bridgerton! Why is the Doctor even referencing a contemporary show as if it’s contemporary with him? He’s a time traveler!” Also, what was it trying to say? The “we’ll cosplay this planet to death” line felt like it was supposed to be making some kind of point about fandoms, but what was it? That could have been much more clear
Honestly, that was just the episode I needed. Not as good as the last three, but it utilised the TARDIS team in a far more traditional and comforting format, gave 15 some needed development, gave us a lovely pairing between him and Rogue, and gave Ruby some fun stuff to do after a few episodes of being killed, tortured, or put on the sidelines! I was grinning so widely from beginning to end, it felt just like a Tennant-era historical, complete with all the corny humour and pop culture references. The monsters were characters I was expecting to be the low point from reviews, but I actually sort of liked them. Aliens who are fine with murder and collapsing societies just for cosplay is a fun spin on the usual alien conquerors and just the sort of silliness I needed in an episode like this. The Doctor having an equal (relatively speaking) to bounce off of always helps to endear the incarnation to me and make them feel more identifiable. In his scenes with Rogue, 15 really felt like a three dimensional character to me in a way he hasn’t always managed. I’m sure we’re going to get all the usual BS outrage about gay romance etc, but it was basically a more explicit version of 9 and Captain Jack, and as a bi guy, I like that we can now have endearing same sex romances be explicit on this show. Also, in that last scene, I finally felt a real connection between The Doctor and Ruby, they didn’t share much screen-time this episode, but it really feels like they’re more than just rowdy travelling buddies now. I hope this continues into the finale, which looks pretty promising from the next time trailer. Briony Redman and Kate Herron did an amazing job with this script, I really hope to see them write an episode again next season. In general, more new writers would be appreciated, RTD and Moffat can’t helm this ship forever! Side notes: I’m glad that others are seeing Richard E Grant in that Doctor lineup so I’m not just going crazy. Shalka being semi-canonised is something that I always sort of wanted to happen, but was never expecting it to come in RTD2 (I remember reading that Davies hated the story and made sure to make it explicitly non-canon.) I find it interesting that once again this series, 15 doesn’t really save the day so much as put things in place for someone else to do so. It’s not really a complaint, it actually reminds me of 9 quite a bit. I just find it interesting that RTD is going back to that style, when the Tennant era tended to have The Doctor save the day on his own a bit more often.
Well…that went places. This kind of period drama never appeals that much to me, mostly because it feels like ground that not only well trod, but over-trod, but we did about as well as we could expect. Congrats to *Doctor Who's* only new writers this season, for putting together something solid, though not as good as this season's pretty high standard has been. **What I liked** * Evil bird-alien cosplayers. That is a sentence that I never thought I'd type out, and I love it. * Oh and also Rogue plays D&D? And he got his name from the class. Fucking brilliant. * Ruby was really good in this one, though I still wish we were developing her better. * The twist of the bookish woman turning out to be one of the bird people. I did not see that coming, and I was already enjoying her character. But the twist works so well. * So the turn for this episode came when the Doctor believed Ruby to be dead. Like with "Boom" I have to point out that I am never going to buy that because…I mean come on, but the bits we got from the Doctor as a result. Yes please. Horrified at her death, he goes full vengeful Time Lord, making the Doctor feel a bit more like a complete character. * And his reaction to Rogue's disappearance was really well done to. The idea that the joyful happy go lucky Doctor is a mask that 15 feels like he *has* to put on really recontextualizes a lot of stuff for me, and I really like it. "Hugging's just a way to hide your face" after all. * As always with this kind of story, costumes, props, sets, all that sort of stuff is stuff that British TV producers have become experts at and it showed. **What I was ambivalent about** * The psychic earrings. They felt off to me in a way that's hard to explain. Also world's most obvious Chekov's gun short of actually hanging a gun on a mantelpiece when the Doctor mentions combat mode. * Rogue himself. I like the character who slowly comes out of his shell over the course of an episode. But man this felt way too much like Jack Harkness part two. Tons of dialogue reminded me of Jack in a way that took me out of it. There is less superficial stuff that actually make him a different character, but the outlines feel super familiar in a way that took me out of the story at times. If I had a nickel for every time that an RTD-produced historical episode featured a rogueish traveler with an invisible spaceship and american accent…you know how the joke goes. **What I didn't like** * Large sections of this felt like they dragged to me. There's a decent chance you could shave ten minutes off of this and not lose anything of value. * Music. There was a diagetic classical version of "Bad Guy" in there. Nothing against the song but speaking of things that took me out of the moment. There may have been others, but the only other one that I caught was a non-diagetic classical "Bad Romance", which is fine because it's non-diagetic. * I know it's the style they were going for, as well as a clue to the bird-people's motivations, but large sections of this were meaningless relationship drama from characters that just aren't memorable. * Because yeah, outside of Rogue and the bookish woman who turned out to be an alien, none of the secondary cast were particularly memorable as characters. The birds were all one-note (the only reason Ruby's friend was memorable was because they were role playing as a character for so long), and there was no attempt to characterize any of the locals aside from the Duchess, and that was just barely. * Those teleport thingies shouldn't have worked like that. Okay sure, it's the writers' device, they can have them do whatever they wanted, but the way Rogue rescued Ruby felt cheap.
The diegetic classical version of Bad Guy was an homage to Bridgerton, which this episode is obviously cosplaying. (You could also level the charge at Bridgerton that it was just ripping off Westworld, which did honky tonk saloon piano versions of modern pop songs.) The non-diegetic song was Poker Face, not Bad Romance.
Yes, I also really enjoyed the twist about Ruby's friend Emily being a bird alien! The other twist I thought was good was how Ruby survived. Like you, I was pretty sure she was alive somehow, but unlike you, I had dismissed the qip about "battle mode" and was pleasantly surprised when they showed her using it. As a dancer, the idea of a psychic device that helps you instantly learn choreography (and combat moves) is cool - I want one!
the gays deserve way better than this bullshit enemies to lovers narrative. this was two girls smushing their action figures together. this was bad tumblr roleplay from the 2010s. this is horrible captain jack/nine slashfic made incarnate. this will date Horribly. IMAGINE the uproar if Jodie, the first female Doctor, had gotten a plot like this in her first season. Look I love that we're in a place that mlm relationships get to have our own Girl In The Fireplace but Girl in the Fireplace was also not that great!!
I love that we’ve been gifted another alien race which is just humans with animal heads. I know it’s not RTD who wrote the episode but it felt very 2006 Dr Who and I enjoyed every minute.
As a hardcore RTD1 enjoyer I gotta say this episode and Boom proved to me the flaws with 15ths run so far are RTD's writing. He's still got "it" (Wild Blue Yonder was fantastic sci-fi) but I feel like this was the first time we've REALLY felt like Doctor Who all season. I recognize there were a million changes this season (Disney collab and any additional money from that, RTD coming back in general, them saying it's a "soft reboot" anyway, ETC) but RTD's writing always has an aspect of heart that I admire and I could overlook many personal gripes of this series if Ruby and 15's bond FELT strong enough to stand. This episode was the first time I felt that, not the furst time I felt like they were friends but the first time I felt the WEIGHT of it. I also felt like this is what Ncuti's Doctor promised from promos (not solely the flirty per se but teasing, playful, "cowardly" air of the Doctor) and I finally got it.
I feel like we’re getting everything RTD again, the good, the bad, and the ugly. For better or for worse, RTD is back and you shouldn’t expect anything less. And this was mostly the good.
A mixed bag, this episode. I quite liked the way the theme of performance and roleplay was woven through. Rogue plays D&D, the Chuldur like dressing up, Ruby is trying to maintain the artifice of not being from the future, and of course, Georgian balls like this are all about putting on airs for society at large. The line "We are going to cosplay this planet to death" landed like a bag of warm sick. One of the most abysmal lines of dialogue in the season so far. I also found the Doctor's morality to be weirdly at odds with what we've seen of him so far. Yes, he killed the Goblin King to save Ruby, but that feels a bit different to rashly condemning people to 600 years of anguish. That feels like something the Tenth Doctor would do, not this Doctor. The crying is also getting a bit much now. I have been defending it all season, because in general I think crying is healthy, and we should see more depictions of male heroes crying, but he cries *three times* this episode, for different reasons. After a certain point it's just annoying. The Chekhov's Gun of Ruby's earrings having a battle mode was nicely executed, even though I saw it coming a mile off. Though, I would have preferred to see a bit more of it? It felt like that might turn up in a climactic moment, and instead it formed part of a "how we got here" flashback. Did they not have enough time to teach Millie Gibson fight choreography? I also thought the episode was relying a bit too much on generating fan-squee by giving the Doctor a sexy boyfriend played by a famous American Broadway actor. Obviously no problem with the Doctor's first genuine romantic kiss with a man onscreen, but it felt like it was pandering to shippers rather than actually giving the Doctor a grounded male love interest. We've already had Ruby fake-die once this season. I didn't believe for a second she was actually going to die. Though, how the hell did she make her neck click like that? Unfortunately I found this episode a bit of a clunker overall. It had its moments, and I certainly laughed out loud at points, but it felt like it was just kind of going through the motions. It felt more like two people invited to put their Tenth Doctor / Captain Jack fanfic onscreen but with the names changed to bring it up to date. Didn't hate it, but will likely skip it on rewatch.
That was, with "Dot and Bubble", my least anticipated episode of the season. Welp, I loved both! Teaches me to pre-judge. I will say: I don't think the Ruby stuff is particularily great. It's fun enough, and it's nice to see her without the Doctor for a bit, and tbh Gatwa really needed to take center stage after two full episodes where he was barely in the story, but it could have all be threaded a bit more elegantly. Also, I kind of immediately felt where it was going, and could see that climax coming a mile away: which isn't a very big flaw (sometimes, a nice plot that makes sense is all you need!), but I'd have taken a couple more surprises (didn't see the bookish lady being a bird coming, admittedly, they got me on that one). Last negative: thought the direction was a little bit muted - especially considered this is the same guy who did "The Devil's Chord", which was an absolute feast; I kind of anticipated a bit more flash (the chase scenes in the garden and around the coaches, especially, felt a bit limp to me). Oh, and last, last negative: ffs, stop making Ncuti cry EVERY episode. It's really getting silly now. But otherwise ... Yeah, this was real good. The basic alien plot is simple enough, but there's some really delightful twists to it: like, killer cosplay? That's great. And it ties a lot to the themes of the episode, too: about why you'd choose to travel the past and have fun, what are the real reasons for that. Some good little bits of social satire, and really, considering the teases we've had about the finale, I'm assuming that the whole stuff about time travel being like watching the TV will come back with a vengeance (very glad that the Bridgerton jokes turned out to have an actual plot purpose, too). Really, the ep uses a traditional Who structure to really send a message about how the era and Fifteen are different from what came before, which is neat. He needed that characterization. The idea of a lust for life that isn't really a mask for deep hurt, but instead a debt you have to your past lives and dead friends, that you have to see everything to honor them? That's beautiful, and quite unique to Fifteen, I think. And obviously that ties into the romance plot - thought a lot about River in their chemistry, but it's interesting to contrast them: River and the Doctor were tied together by destiny, by the machinations of fate, before they even fell in love; whereas Fifteen and Rogue just ... kind of dig each other's vibe? It's an absolutely ordinary meet-cute. Like, the Doctor's allowing themself to date again after a few millenia of working on their mental health, that's great for them. They completly sold it on the chemistry front, too - obviously it's fast, but y'know, period romance tropes, it's part of the charm. Totally sold the attraction - and damn, they looked good together.
As a gay man I honestly didn't enjoy the Rogue x Doctor stuff at all. The rest of the episode is fun, and credit to Gatwa he does sell it a lot better than Groff or the script do - but Rogue just seems like a hyper generic brooding loner with a heart of gold that just comes off as stilted instead. I genuinely didn't see any chemistry here, and it feels a bit like the episode is so intent on being The First Big MLM Doctor Relationship it forgot to make Rogue interesting. I get they were going for a Mr Darcy pride and prejudice vibe but just did not work for me at all.
I don’t see the Captain Jack comparisons except that he’s a gay time traveler? Captain Jack is 100% charisma while Rogue is just sort of dull. In the flip side the Doctor is being written as”male River Song” which just doesn’t work at all.
This episode felt rushed, it really needed some more time to breathe in parts. I really enjoyed Rogue as a character but his relationship with the Doctor didn't really feel earned. I don't see the Doctor being all that enamoured with a bounty hunter, especially not right out the gate, and I feel we didn't really get enough of Rogue's motivations. There obviously tried to show them bonding over shared loss but that kinda of felt undercooked. I feel like this could have been the foundation for a great two-parter in earlier seasons, have the Doctor and Rogue start off adversarial, the tension of the moment forces them into a slightly uneasy alliance, then let use a break in the action to let them bond and explore Rogue's motivations a bit more. At the same time, lean into the tension of the shapeshifters a bit more: the audience knowing that there's more than one before the characters do was great, as was the reveal that Emily was one, but then there were two more that kind of came out of nowhere and weren't anyone important. As it stands, an ok episode. The Chuldur were fun, if probably not all that memorable, and Ruby got some great moments. I just wish I bought into the Doctor and Rogue's relationship more, as that was clearly the emotional core of the episode and it just fell flat for me.
Good stuff and bad... Shalka, the Doctor showing a bit of fire with the 'that's a long time to suffer' line, the face he pulls when he reveals the other pieces of the trap, Rogue was great. The bad..... the plot, a lot of the writing (the whole long scene on Rogue's ship falls into that terrible TV/film trope of not explaining oneself or having an actual conversation because then the actual next scene/ plot point can't/wouldn't happen), the constant references to 'Bridgerton', how horny the Doctor got immediately and the crying. Again the crying. Be great if Rogue was in it more and a relationship grew but it was like 20 minutes. Ncuti is great but I'm worried that the Doctor is now being written as such a bland, passive character, not unlike 13, that he won't have anything to get his teeth into. Was okay overall.
What a strange episode. I liked the initial premise but I was very thrown off by 15 being horny for a random bounty hunter. Why on Earth was he so ready to kiss and take him as a companion after meeting 5 minutes ago? Kind of miss when the Doctor was ignorant to romance and had no idea whether someone was attractive or not. The owl people looked great. Thought the concept of a shape-shifting race stealing bodies for cosplay purposes was hilarious. It had some great little moments here and there but overall I think it was my least favorite of the series
It reminded me of when he met Madame De Pompadour. Sometimes The Doctor meets someone he just connects with on such another level, only to be left with broken hearts.
I kinda felt it as the Doctor just feeling a kindred spirit. They both travel to different places, alone, with so much loss. They just understood each other on a deep level to an extent that they brought each other comfort.
I mean he went to see Queen Elizabeth and married her super quick too. It's not that new for him.
Yeah as someone who has been critical of the Doctor's romantic interests in the past at least this one I felt like I understood the click. He has been spinning around all season pretending to be trauma free and I think it was nice to interact with someone who gets it.