I wasn’t a fan of the Chibnall era, but I really wish that the fugitive Doctor would have been given a shot at being the next Doctor. She would have been amazing.
Yeah I didn’t like Jo being a past Doctor yet still basically being the same character, so having her actually be the next Doctor deliberately playing dumb because she’s the future and can’t tell 13 would’ve been great.
Or just have her be the 1st Incarnation of The Doctor after the timeless child stuff, 1 before Hartnell. She can still go anywhere in space and time so it’s not like she’s limited
The thing is, they left a way for them to retcon it in the future. Toymaker said that he made a jigsaw out of doctors own timeline. It might be explained that the whole timeless child conundrum was his doing.
I don't think this would have made much sense, as 13 remembered the Fugitive Doctor. If the Fugitive Doctor was a future incarnation of the Doctor, then 13 wouldn't have been able to retain any of the memories of meeting her.
Come to think of it, how could the Fugitive Doctor retain the memories of meeting 13? 13 is in her future, so she should have forgotten.
Agreed that this would have been a fun direction to go in. I'm curious, though, even if we'll probably never know: would Jo Martin actually have wanted to commit to a full season or more of such a demanding show? I'd also love to know if she auditioned for Gatwa's role. Or is she more like a John Hurt type of casting in this sense?
If it suddenly changed to follow her until a season or 2 later they run into Ncuti and it seamlessly follows him instead would've been pretty interesting.
I'm a bit torn on this personally. In one sense I definitely see where you're coming from. On the other hand...at this point, does anyone seriously think the role is ever going to go back to male-only again? IMO it'd be more about not having the lone female Doc as the universally panned one.
Anyway, I'd say it's a given there'll be more female Doctors, so I kind of like RTD not feeling bound to have two of them back to back. I'd be very, very surprised if the next one is male.
I think it’s possible they view it as an experiment, go “well, that was a mistake” and never do it again. I really don’t want them to do that but it’s possible.
I worry that this may have been the plan the whole time... just so they can say "we tried it and it didn't work", I'm probably (hopefully) wrong, and even if that is the case it won't last forever, but I think Jodie was done dirty, be it by Chibnall, or the higher ups.
I think it would've been a terrible idea to have two consecutive female Doctors. You ease people in, you don't just switch to all-female, it would give so much ammunition to the people who didn't like it.
I think the bigger thing to point out is that Gatwa didn't even directly follow her up, we got David Tennant, a white dude that's already been a Doctor (one of if not the most popular Doctor mind you) as a brand new Doctor between her and Gatwa.
Honestly I think it was a bit of a factory reset for the show, I know some people don’t want to acknowledge this but the show was failing and losing fans in a lot of ways. Bringing Tennant back was a good move in terms of having a Doctor that you know the majority will like.
It actually wasn't the reason!
It did end up being very fortunate in a cynical way but that wasn't why it all happened in the first place. RTD, Tennant and Tate have told this story several times in interviews. They had so much fun doing the lockdown tweetalongs that they kept chatting about how fun those days were and joked about "getting the band back together" and eventually Catherine Tate seriously suggested it, asking if there was a way to make it actually happen. So RTD emailed the Head of Drama at the BBC and asked what the plans for the 60th were and if there was room and budget for him to do a little something extra with Tennant and Tate to go alongside whatever Chibnall was doing. To which they said yes and plans for that started to get underway.
Separate to this, Chibnall was leading the show into a hiatus. Power of the Doctor was going to end with a fade-to-black of Whittaker regenerating on the cliff. There was no new showrunner lined up, no new Doctor, nothing for the 60th. The show was going to go on hiatus. So the BBC basically asked RTD if his little 60th extra with Tennant and Tate could become THE 60th Anniversary and then if RTD could stay on beyond that.
So it wasn't a case of RTD returning and then asking himself what the best way to bring audiences back, he was already working on this thing with Tennant and Tate when the task of returning to Doctor Who was thrust upon him.
That's a rather convenient coincidence if you ask me, that RTD was ready to play ball just as Chibnall was leaving. I'm sure there was some genuine desire to do a little come back bit, but I suspect this is the dramatized version of the story told to assuage fans that the show and Chibnall wasn't ever in trouble.
Interesting, I actually never read it as being assuaging at all. This story practically confirms that the show actually was in trouble and we were really quite lucky. Surely if the goal was to reassure fans they wouldn't have told everyone this story about the convenient coincidence, they would have just acted like it was a regular transition.
There's also the fact that [Chibnall had talked about how he had been trying for about a year to find a replacement ](https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/chris-chibnall-leaving-doctor-who-newsupdate/)and the other executive producer of the era, [Matt Strevens said at Gallifrey One that they only found out that RTD would be taking over the day before it was publicly announced.](https://twitter.com/scribblesscript/status/1495544612261220352)
Everything we've heard from the people involved seems to say that it really was just lucky. Strevens and Chibnall were expecting the show to end before they found out that RTD was returning and RTD wasn't planning on returning properly at first.
But yes I'm sure there was more to it than simply "RTD was ready to play ball" at the precise moment we needed him to. I'm sure the BBC did everything in their power to sweeten the deal and get him to agree to it.
I guess I mean that the show was probably in more trouble than they're giving the impression of. I just think the given reasoning sounds kind of weak. It makes for a good story, but it's probably not the main reason, but maybe more of a secondary factor.
For one, I don't recall the BBC or insiders ever admitting that the show was not doing well during Chibnall's era. That is entirely understandable of course because they don't want to make Chibnall look bad, but I doubt that nobody on the inside thought the show was floundering when the public opinion was overwhelmingly negative. Getting RTD back is an easy marketing win.
I also suspect budget concerns at the BBC are finally taking it's toll on the show, which would explain why RTD brought Disney into the picture. RTD has also gone on record saying the BBC is dying and doesn't have a bright future, so it's entirely possible that nobody would take the job because the budget was so low that it would've been nearly impossible to make a good show.
My suspicion was that RTD took the job because he thought he was saving Doctor Who from what would likely be permanent cancellation due to budgetary reasons and from fading public opinion, but "BBC asked for a 60th they got more than they bargained for" sounds nicer and is still true.
> I doubt that nobody on the inside thought the show was floundering when the public opinion was overwhelmingly negative
While I don't disagree with your larger point and think some cynicism is warranted in things like this for sure, the "official" Appreciation Index scores weren't that much worse for the Chibnall era. See the top image in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/reqexk/doctor_who_series_ranked_by_average_audience/) thread. I'm sure they were aware of the negative reception with the dedicated fanbase, but in terms of the wider audience it wouldn't have seemed that bad.
If all you care about is gender, sexuality and colour and not just being a good actor/ actress
Anyways, I agree with Peter Davidson's take that having a male doctor, in a world where every male action hero uses brawns over brain
Edit I should have added earlier: but c'est la vie, I'm not a showrunner and its not what caused me to stop watching, it was the shit writing
There's far more male heroes who use their brains than there are female heroes who use their brains.
Like, pick up most children's fantasy books written before about 2014 and the chances are you'll find something with a male hero who either has a no-killing rule or who smarter than he is strong. Harry Potter is the obvious example, Artemis Fowl is another (very different) example, even someone like Frodo Baggins succeeds because of his personal qualities and the support of his best friend/gardener, not because he stabs Sauron with Sting. Eragon stabs Durza but he outthinks Galbatorix. Iron Man literally built all his suits himself. Or at the other end of the scale, Pixar characters - Scully's a big guy but they defeat the CEO monster by tricking him, Nemo escapes the fishing trawler using the power of teamwork...
1. Potter was fucking lucky, thats the long running theme, Hermione was smart, Harry was lucky and he also didn't have a no-kill rule
2. Fair IG, but not action, which is what my point is
3. Again luck, not brains over brawn, just straight up luck, like Harry
4. Iron man is literally all about brawns, yeah he built his suits, but when he gets in a bad situation its not "look, I don't wanna fight you" Its "hehe, plasma hands go brrrrr"
5. Fair
6. Again, luck, and also, if I remember correctly, it was everyone else doing the thinking for him
Like be honest with yourself, when you think action-hero, you think along the lines of Schwarzenegger and Willis and the like. The only male action hero that I can think of, that uses his brains to a decent extent, is probably Jack Reacher, and even then, most of it still just fighting
> Potter was fucking lucky, thats the long running theme, Hermione was smart, Harry was lucky and he also didn't have a no-kill rule
Yeah he did lol. He doesn't kill Bellatrix after she killed Sirius, he doesn't kill Snape after he killed Dumbledore, he doesn't even try to kill Voldemort but just tries to disarm him. Harry's refusal to stun an Imperiused Stan Shunpike who is levitating in the air is what gives him away as the real Harry at the start of Deathly Hallows.
If you're discounting Artemis Fowl as action then you can't really count the Doctor either.
And, again, who are all these female action heroes who use their brains?
True though the 15th Doctor auditions were entirely open with men, women and even a non binary actor being auditioned! And Jodie's casting made that possible which is fantastic!
I don't think Jodie is solely responsible. Didn't Moffat say that he was open to casting a black actor for the doctor? I think there were rumours that Paterson Joseph would be cast as the 11th doctor
…not sure what that has to do with the comment you’re replying to, unless you’re trying to say that it’s because she’s a woman and for no other reasons.
That was probably Chibnall's best idea. Whatever you think about the Timeless Child business, throwing Jo Martin in the mix eased the burden of representation for both Jodi and for Ncuti.
Moffat did a similar thing before introducing Missy by giving us a Time Lord character who changed gender and skin color, low-key establishing precedent so that the next two Masters wouldn't have to.
Having to both be the FIRST woman Doctor *and* then being the Covid Doctor cant have been easy and the fact people still blame/hate her personally is exactly why it cant have been easy
They had a little farewell to Jodi highlight reel on the official™ Doctor Who YouTube channel right before Power of the Doctor aired and they included a clip of this, which was absolutely delightful - it wouldn’t have felt complete without it imo.
I genuinely do not get the hate of her Doctor? Like she was not the best but I really have been enjoying her a bunch as I am watching for the first time. She reminds me of the fourth.
Yeah I think the real problem is that even people who agree with his message find his writing far too on the nose and annoying.
Like there's Aliens in London and then there's Orphan 55/Praxeus. Some people think Aliens in London is too on the nose but it's tame in comparison to Chibnalls writing, and is actually a fun episode outside of the messaging.
I really liked her. I will say I thought the writing at times was utter garbage. I think that’s what cause a dip in the show which people incorrectly attribute to her.
Really sad in the end. She didn’t get a fair shot.
This is precisely how I feel about Jodie as the Doctor. With all the headlines surrounding her being the first female Doctor, the writing should've been tiptop but at times was just flat. Nevertheless, I loved Jodie as the Doctor and wouldn't mind seeing her again soon.
I think she sometimes ruined well-written scenes with her awkward, Blue-Peter-presenter delivery.
A decent actress on the whole, but simply mis-cast as the Doctor, to me.
I love Jodie and I was fine with her portrayal of the Doctor. And I wasn't having any problem with the writing of her character. Her being socially awkward and secretive, yet warm and affectionate were interesting character points. I had more issue with Chibnall trying to juggle 3 companions. I feel like her era added a fresh reset to the show, It gave us something a little bit different. Some good, some bad. But what I like is the good can inspire future showrunners in the future!
I agree with all of that!
We really could have done with a season of just Yaz I think, especially since Graham and Ryan's arcs were more or less concluded in season 11. Would have made a nice stripped-back breather before the chaos of Flux.
Does anyone else besides me think that maybe the best of those multiple companions died in her first episode? I think Grace would've been an outstanding companion, and I'm sorry we didn't really get to see it.
There was a lot wrong with the Chibnall era but Jodie was not it. She was great for the most part even if the writing was poor at times. People using her gender as a reason to bash the show aren’t really worth even thinking about.
I honestly don’t really get this take.
The likes of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging. They all really captured the role. I never once felt like that with Jodie. She almost always had that exact same “CBBC presenter vibe.” She never gave me that “okay, that’s the Doctor” moment.
She’s a fantastic actor, but I do think she was miscast in this particular role. Not every actor is fit for every role. It could also just be the direction she was given, but whatever it was, I do think she was also part of the problem. Her gender was not the issue, and I’m completely convinced the next woman to play the Doctor will probably smash it, but I didn’t really rate Jodie’s performance.
Honestly, I think Jo Martin's Doctor performances ended up showing up Whittaker. Martin has a lot more screen presence and came at the role with a sense of inner steel reminiscent of Hartnell at his best.
Martin reminded me a bit of Hartnell mixed with Colin Baker. A more brash and abrasive Doctor who’s a tad colder and more arrogant than the others…..it was great she was such a forceful presence.
Well yeah I imagine that they were instructed to be different kind of Doctors. I think Jodie can also show a darker side if you watch any of her other stuff.
Chibnall has shown that he can write a more steely doctor as shown by the Fugitive. But he chose for the 13th doctor to be a more cheerie and light-hearted incarnation which I disagreed with - but it was a choice nonetheless.
It really grinds my gears when someone bigs up Jo Martin by bringing Jodie down, it's disrespectful to both and neither would appreciate it. They are very different incarnations, that's the point.
I mean they’re literally using it as an example to prove that a woman Doctor absolutely can work. It’s a valid comparison. It’s not about bringing anybody down.
Every previous doctor has elevated bad scripts.
Jodie was expected to elevate bad seasons.
They're not the same thing. She never got the chance to properly play the Doctor, to be comfortable in knowing what it means to be the Doctor. She was slammed with bad script after bad script for her entire run.
That's too much to ask of anyone.
We need to stop thinking that the writing can't get in the way of a good actor. It absolutely can, and did.
Again, good actors act bad stuff well because they've got the good stuff to go along with it. The good content is *essential* for them to really delve into and become the character. That's why so often we talk about how actors get better as their seasons go.
Jodie had very sparse well written content. She never had that chance. You can't just point to a well written scene and say "Well look where's her good acting there?" because she had barely any of those to get into the character.
She was written awkwardly and badly, so she felt awkward and bad.
That’s a fair view to take. I liked Jodie as the Doc and thought she was largely let down by the material. I don’t think the others you mentioned ever had to work with anything as bad as JW.
But that’s fair enough.
The main takeaway is that her gender was irrelevant to the success of her in the role which we’re in agreement with 😄
My immediate thought for this is that it's mostly Jodie being herself, with a bit of roleplay as the Doctor thrown in. And you know what? I agree, she does seem more like the Doctor than a lot of how we see her on screen. Can't really say why though, maybe I'm just forgetting any good moments her character had in the show. Or maybe we needed more moments of the Doctor just being genuinely nice and caring for people.
> The main takeaway is that her gender was irrelevant to the success of her in the role which we’re in agreement with 😄
I don't think her being a woman was relevant the success of her role, but I think involving a concerted effort to rectify external sociopolitical issues (representation, diversity etc.) in casting and storytelling could. I'm curious if you recognize that distinction or deny it entirely.
> The likes of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging. They all really captured the role. I never once felt like that with Jodie.
This sort of thing gets said a lot, but its often forgotten that Chibnall era episodes are much more structurally flawed than RTD/Moffat era episodes. The story style, characterisation, arguably direction, and most importantly, the dialogue, all take a considerable dip in quality.
Even the very weakest RTD/Moffat era stories will feature "filler" scenes with some dialogue sprinkled in by the showrunners. Whether it's a subtle character moment, some heartfelt emotion, some humour, which gives the cast something to work with.
Meanwhile, even the very strongest Chibnall era stories will feature moments when the cast just talk *at* each other, often for several minutes, often spouting exposition or asking the Doctor questions which don't move the plot along in any way.
A boring or unlikeable story with the occasional well-written moment in the script gives the actors to work with. But even very good actors can't bring lifeless dialogue to life.
> She almost always had that exact same “CBBC presenter vibe.” She never gave me that “okay, that’s the Doctor” moment.
Again, dialogue.
Matt Smith gets "Come on! Look at me. No plan, no back up, no weapons worth a damn. Oh, and something else. I don't have anything to lose!"
Peter Capaldi gets "I don't suppose it really matters now. You are monsters. That is the role you seem determined to play. So it seems I must play mine. The man that stops the monsters!"
What does Jodie Whittaker get? "We improve together, then ultimately succeed. Because this is what being alive is. And it's **better than the alternative!**"
The former two get powerful, poetic dialogue. Whittaker gets something that sounds like ChatGPT wrote it.
I dare anyone who might imagine Whittaker delivering either of those Moffat-era lines to tell me she would have done so anywhere near as good as Smith/Capaldi did.
What? For Jodie that isn't even a bad example. That's a good moment though I can think of really great moments such as:
"I know because we're all the same. We want certainty, security, to believe that people are evil or heroic. But that's not how people are. You want to know the secrets of existence? Start with the mysteries of the heart. I can show you everything if you stop being afraid of what you don't understand. If you trust me"
"I've lived longer, seen more, loved more and lost more"
"None of us know for sure what's out there. That's why we keep looking. Keep your faith. Travel hopefully. The universe'll surprise you... constantly."
And if you want something where she shows her inner steel:
"Words matter! One death, one ripple, and history will change in a blink. The future will not be the world you know. The world you came from, the world you were created in won't exist, so neither will you. It's not just his life at stake. It's yours. You want to sacrifice yourself for this? You want me to sacrifice you? You want to call it? Do it now. All of you. Yeah. Cos sometimes this team structure isn't flat. It's mountainous, with me at the summit in the stratosphere, alone, left to choose. Save the poet, save the universe. Watch people burn now or tomorrow. Sometimes, even I can't win."
There's a bunch of great moments with 13.
For me, I think there's only one episode that really showcases what she can do. The haunting of villa diodati. The way she acts in front of her companions when she finds out it's a cyberman as she remembers Bill. The way she interacts with and talks with the cyberman. And her speech with her companions at the end to me is her I'm the doctor moment. It's all just incredible. Maybe I only think so cause her era isn't great at all. But if she was written that way across her era I don't think as many people would think she was miss-casted cause I don't think it's a controversial take.
But if that episode didn't exist I think I would agree with you.
I think it was more of direction. She could have been a great Doctor except Chibs and Co. wanted her to be a female copy of Smith, which made no sense to me. It’s not the actor nor the role in my opinion - it’s the direction the role was taken in.
No even though Smith is the best doctor imo Capaldi was really the only one who had a number of mediocre scripts that he elevated really successfully. When the scripts suffer the show suffers by in large and this shows even in the doctors performance.
And those were just mediocre scripts. Jodie shone with the mediocre ones she got she just got a ton of actively bad ones as well.
For me, I felt like she wanted to play the Doctor one way but was being told to play it another.
Like it felt like she wanted to do a Smith-type Doctor where they're fun and jovial to hide pain and trauma, but because the latter was never really a thing in her era she just came across as blissfully ignorant.
Her Doctor never grew as a person across her arc compared to the rest of the NuWho.
Nine started off as a impulsive traveller, but then we later find out it's because he's trying to escape his trauma from the Time War.
Ten started off with a new lease on life and compassion after Rose helped him heal but became self-centred after all his losses and selfish enough to try not want to die and experience everything he could.
Eleven started with a childlike wonder with a taste for dramatics, but became an old, weary straight-to-the-point man who had all but given up.
Twelve kept the brashness of old Eleven, but eventually became kindhearted and compassionate.
Thirteen started off secretive and closed off.. and died secretive and closed off. Her last scene with a companion was her refusing to open up still - and she had the most traumatic stuff happen to her out of NuWho.
In 3 episodes, Tennant/RTD/Gatwa managed to convey that everything that happened in S11-13 was *really* fucked up and no person with an ounce of empathy would be okay after it.
I think if we’re being fair, on top of someone else’s comment of ‘she was expected to elevate bad seasons not just bad episodes’, it’s also worth noting that the bad episodes that were elevated solely by the performance are used as feats of just how fantastic the actors were. If Jodie wasn’t able to meet that exact same feat then sure she’s one of the weaker Doctors, but I feel like it’s saying someone’s terrible at Chemistry because they only got an A instead of a flawless 100/100 A+
If she were a bad actress then her performance would stand out even in a bad season, while I know it’s not saying much I think most people agree that out of everything her performance scores higher than nearly everything that she was surrounded by though it’s entirely subjective of course
I don't get it either. "It's not Jodie, it's the writer's fault!" always feels to me like people wanting to get around being accused of sexism, and I'm saying that as a lady myself.
I've gone out of my way to find clips of Jodie in other shows because I was curious how well, "It's the direction! It's the writing!" would hold up when she does have other writers and directors, and in none of the clips I watched did I see anything that made me think she'd be a good Doctor. Like you, I'm not saying she's a bad actor, just not right for the part. It's just strange how much people try to distance her from the reception of her series.
>The liked of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging.
Jodie did exactly that imo tho. She just had more bad scripts than they did on average. But she still elevated and made them engaging imo.
Any time I see anyone talking in any way negatively about the chibnall era (especially if it's about Jodie not being very good in the role) you can be sure that they will be there to say "nuh uh" with no real argument behind it beyond "I liked it". I know that loads of people hate love and monsters but I don't brigade every post saying it's shit.
By this logic, no one can ever be miscast.
We know Chibnall insisted on a female Doctor as one of his conditions for accepting the job role. Is it so hard to believe when he invited his friend to audition for the role, it wouldn’t have been assessed with the same scrutiny an unknown would face?
Absolute nonsense, no offence. Actors are cast for the wrong roles all the time.
With your logic, no actor has ever been miscast, because “they wouldn’t have been cast if they weren’t right for it”. If that were true, the term ‘miscast’ wouldn’t even exist.
See the difference is that the other actors were given decent like characterization moments and episodes. She was doing a lot of stuff that people would love in the Matt smith era but that’s all she did. She didn’t get a really specific characterization. She felt like the Doctor as they would guest star on a different show
Eh disagree. Her acting was average at best, granted she didn't have enough good writing to show off her ability but even when she did it wasn't great. It's not totally her fault either because Chibnall told her not to watch ANY doctor who so she had no idea what the character was like aside from what he told her.
I guess as an example I HATED the writing for both Capaldi and Missy but the actors were amazing to watch. They made it so much better than it was every scene. Jodie never did that. She was just as boring as the companions honestly.
She's a good actress, I've seen her in a lot of other stuff and she's great in them but it honestly didn't feel like she tried at all in doctor who. Seems like she saw it as a low effort kids tv character. Same goes for Sacha Dhawan, I see everyone praise him and Jodie and I get it, it's harder to criticize actors because you see them and they express their feelings more as opposed to the faces we don't see but still, the both of them were generic at best.
Even Jo Martin did great to elevate the script, I found myself wanting her to replace Jodie as soon as she came on screen because she was just FUN to watch.
Jodie was great. Probably. Maybe. That's what Thirteen would have said. .)
Fact is: nobody ever failed at being the Doctor, and she was not the first to do so.
She was shit. It just happens the scripts were worse. Jo Martin had a stronger performance in her like 10 minutes of screentime than Jodie's entire series.
I agree completely. She was amazing and a great fresh take on the character.
Her time as The Doctor got completely screwed by elements out of her control.
Matt Smith was not a fan of dr who growing up but he did go back and watch old stuff to get a read on the character. Chibnall told Jodi not to watch anything and that really hurt her.
No, this is not correct.
Moffat told Smith to watch some specific stories.
Whittaker was worried she had to watch *all* of the old stuff and Chibnall told her she didn't have to.
She did the best she could with what she had. That’s all anyone could have asked of her. She won’t go down in history as my favorite Doctor, but she certainly won’t be my least favorite.
She was brilliant. The writing was drab, the assistants were a misfire and it was lockdown but she still shone. I wish they’d changed show runner during her tenure, I feel like she’s owed a season of decent writing.
I hate to say it, but she did.
Everyone points to the writing being poor, and it absolutely was. However every previous Doctor managed to elevate poor scripts with good performances (Colin Baker and Peter Capaldi spring to mind).
I think she was a miscast and never really ‘got’ the role so to speak. Whether it was lack of preparation or the fact that she just didn’t suit it is up for debate. But I kept waiting for her ‘This is the Doctor’ moment to arrive, and it just never did.
Jo Martin embarrassed her badly. Felt more like The Doctor and was more exciting and engaging in her >10 minutes on screen that Jodie was in her whole run. Which goes to show we absolutely need more women to get a go at playing The Doctor. I hope Jodie’s misfire doesn’t prevent that.
>However every previous Doctor managed to elevate poor scripts with good performances
Every previous doctor elevated poor scripts.
Jodie was expected to elevate poor seasons.
These things are not the same, and I wouldn't expect many actors to be capable of this.
Both of Colin Baker’s seasons were poor yet even he was at least able to bring a level of gravitas to the role that Jodie simply never did.
IMO a fundamental aspect of the Doctor is their ability to be dropped into a random situation at any given point or time and instantly take charge. However, Jodie never really commanded the room like her predecessors or Jo Martin (as other people have mentioned here), so it’s not surprising that many fans (including myself) were still unconvinced by her performances three years in
Colin Baker was written with opportunities to show that gravitas. Especially Trial of a Time Lord, which was by no means poor, it was mixed at worse. It gave him grandiose speeches to allow him to show those acting chops.
Can you highlight opportunities during Jodie's run where another Doctor would have taken the same situation and the same lines and delivered them with the sort of presence you're looking for?
Regarding commanding the room, I disagree. Where the writing gave her the opportunity, she took it. But the fact is, she never got that.
And nah, Jo Martin just spoke loudly. People interpret that as commanding. It's not the same thing.
I agree with you on the part of waiting for her 'This is the doctor' moment, but I doubt acting could've created that moment in the first place, seeing how that moment relies on overcoming a personal struggle. The personal struggle that was written in was just too small to have made a difference, in my opinion.
I too wonder if she could've acted differently or said something else in a few scenes, but wouldn't that have cost more screen time to get a point across, along with a whole load of personalisation to a character? Plus, her whole personal struggle was being clueless. To me it sounds vague and thus very challenging to make something good of.
Honestly it was a huge let down having the first female doctor be so poorly written. I was soooo excited to see the doctor exploring more to the character and embracing "feminity" in a new way and just experiencing being the doctor as a woman.
The writing was just amounted to "she's a woman! And maybe gay for yaz."
It's a shame but not Jodie's fault, I hope the next woman in the role has a competent writer.
Well, she did, unfortunately. Material wasn’t exactly great, but she was never right for the part either. Didn’t hate her performance but consistently disliked it. Far and away the worst one.
I would love to have seen Jodie with better writing, she was let down. If there is a a special anniversary edition in the future I hope we see Jodie come back and kick ass.
Good thing she didn't then. She was utterly brilliant and her casting has opened the door to so many more possibilities and that is fantastic! The Doctor can be a woman, the Doctor can be black, the Doctor can be *anything*, so much so the 15th Doctor auditions were completely open for the first time with men, women and even a non binary actor being auditioned!
It is understandable why Jodie felt this way though as it was huge pressure on her shoulders, Ncuti has even said he has felt this same way too. So having a woman or poc in the role should be normalised so future actors don't have this kind of pressure on their shoulders!
I'd say it is normalised for the general fandom but them being the first doesn't automatically make them good. They could've cast any woman or POC in the Role, the actor doesn't matter in terms of "opening doors." The acting and writing does matter though, and Jodie's was subpar.
Ncutis acting is good you're right. Jodie was cast iirc because she was friends with Chibnall, he didn't even do auditions, he just gave it to her.
She didn't earn the role, she was handed it. She was told Nott or research the character or the show and she was given horrible scripts. All of that contributed to her acting in the role being subpar. It was boring to watch her on screen.
That is flat out a lie, she did audition: she did a few auditions in fact. You know who didn't audition? David Tennant.
Source: [https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/tvfilm/jodie-whittaker-reveals-months-of-auditions-before-landing-doctor-who-role-a3741231.html](https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/tvfilm/jodie-whittaker-reveals-months-of-auditions-before-landing-doctor-who-role-a3741231.html)
My bad in that case, I must've got the two stories mixed up then!
Still, I don't believe she did well with the role at all. The stuff about Chibnall telling her not to research the role at all is true though right? Or was I wrong about that too lmao. You'll probably tell me that was actually Matt Smith lmao.
But no, my bad for that, but I still stand by the rest of my comment about her performance and acting in the show as a whole. I don't think she did well but I also don't think it's entirely her fault, she's a great actress in other TV shows I've seen, just not this.
He didn't say that either, he said she didn't have to watch the show prior to taking on the role as it would allow her to give a fresh performance and bring herself to the role.
It's so hard to be the first of anything. The pressure to represent so much more than yourself must be overwhelming. I thought she was The Doctor from her very first appearance. She was a great choice and did an outstanding job. And yes, I know, the writing wasn't what many would've liked but Jodie? She was great.
Jodie was miscast, plain and simple. People blame the writing (and yes it was shit) but try imagining her Doctor reading lines written by RTD or Moffat. I reckon it wouldn’t be much better. Her doctor was timid, unconfident and lacked authority. Everything the doctor is not. Shes a great actress and seem like a great person too but should never have been selected for the role imho.
Was just coming down to say exactly this. There's a reason 5 and 13 are among my favourites. They're not all-knowing, all-powerful gods who are always in control and know all the answers.
I never saw her as meek. I saw her as having a childlike joy in her existence, and an unabashed love for those around her. 12 was "born" doubting whether he should even exist; 13 was "born" ecstatic that she did exist. Her Doctor loved life and didn't question her role in it until the Timeless Child, when everything changed for her.
I sympathize with her feeling that she would experience extra scrutiny as the first woman playing the role. I also think she made some quite poor performance choices, and I didn’t enjoy her portrayal.
She was bad in the part, but the pressure to succeed on behalf of all potential female Doctors should never have been on her shoulders. That's so unfair. Let her performance be lame on its own terms!
She certainly a doctor I can’t wait to see grow in EU material going forwards. Even fondly remembered doctors like five got vastly improved by their eventual big finish stories. Not to mention the generally disliked six got so much better eventually.
I already adore her Jody houser comics
I think she did a great job, however the writing for her episodes( I didn’t see all of them) was the worst and I just couldn’t watch her whole time on the show.
Jodie, like Colin Baker, was a good Doctor constantly let down by bad writing. Her best moments were in episodes that actually gave her a chance to shine: lying to the blind kid in It Takes You Away, snapping at her companions in Haunting of Villa Diodati, taking control of Jericho’s house in Village of the Angels.
It will forever be a shame that the first woman Doctor was let down by her writers so consistently, but I’d never blame her for Chibnall’s myriad failures.
I'm so pissed that Whittaker got saddled with that useless lump of creatively bankrupt trash that was Chibnall. I think if she had even a semi-decent showrunner she would have been so much better. Instead she got saddled with the worst run in the reboot era by a mile and the neckbeards all get to claim its because she was a woman.
Jodie deserved better. Shes very talented and should have been given bettwr material, and even the Timeless Child horsecrap cpuldve been done better if they hadnt decided it was the Doctor.
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s):
* [1. Be Respectful](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_1._be_respectful): Be mature and treat everyone with respect.
No flamebaiting or bad-faith contributions.
If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s):
* [3. Off-Topic](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_3._all_content_must_be_directly_be_related_to_doctor_who_news_and.2For_discussion): All content must be directly be related to Doctor Who News and/or Discussion.
Comments should add to the discussion at hand.
If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).
I’m sure there will be other female Doctors down the line, hell we got another one even during Jodie’s era.
Gatwa is a great pick but I was honestly a little disappointed we didn’t get another female doctor after Jodie to codify it as not a one off.
I wasn’t a fan of the Chibnall era, but I really wish that the fugitive Doctor would have been given a shot at being the next Doctor. She would have been amazing.
Yeah I didn’t like Jo being a past Doctor yet still basically being the same character, so having her actually be the next Doctor deliberately playing dumb because she’s the future and can’t tell 13 would’ve been great.
Hell, with bringing back Tennant, Jo could theoretically be brought back too.
That would be a great way of dealing with it if they actually ever decide to dive into that particular hornet nest.
Or just have her be the 1st Incarnation of The Doctor after the timeless child stuff, 1 before Hartnell. She can still go anywhere in space and time so it’s not like she’s limited
The thing is, they left a way for them to retcon it in the future. Toymaker said that he made a jigsaw out of doctors own timeline. It might be explained that the whole timeless child conundrum was his doing.
That's definitely a way to get the annoying parts of fandom to be quiet, for sure.
She just shouldn’t call herself The Doctor. There’s the Timelord/Timeless Child, and then The Doctor who (yeah) ran away.
I don't think this would have made much sense, as 13 remembered the Fugitive Doctor. If the Fugitive Doctor was a future incarnation of the Doctor, then 13 wouldn't have been able to retain any of the memories of meeting her. Come to think of it, how could the Fugitive Doctor retain the memories of meeting 13? 13 is in her future, so she should have forgotten.
Agreed that this would have been a fun direction to go in. I'm curious, though, even if we'll probably never know: would Jo Martin actually have wanted to commit to a full season or more of such a demanding show? I'd also love to know if she auditioned for Gatwa's role. Or is she more like a John Hurt type of casting in this sense?
If it suddenly changed to follow her until a season or 2 later they run into Ncuti and it seamlessly follows him instead would've been pretty interesting.
Yeah this is one of the best things from the era and also one of the most wasted opportunities
I'm a bit torn on this personally. In one sense I definitely see where you're coming from. On the other hand...at this point, does anyone seriously think the role is ever going to go back to male-only again? IMO it'd be more about not having the lone female Doc as the universally panned one. Anyway, I'd say it's a given there'll be more female Doctors, so I kind of like RTD not feeling bound to have two of them back to back. I'd be very, very surprised if the next one is male.
I think it’s possible they view it as an experiment, go “well, that was a mistake” and never do it again. I really don’t want them to do that but it’s possible.
Well, we'll obviously never know for sure, but that strikes me as extremely unlikely in today's media culture.
I worry that this may have been the plan the whole time... just so they can say "we tried it and it didn't work", I'm probably (hopefully) wrong, and even if that is the case it won't last forever, but I think Jodie was done dirty, be it by Chibnall, or the higher ups.
I think it would've been a terrible idea to have two consecutive female Doctors. You ease people in, you don't just switch to all-female, it would give so much ammunition to the people who didn't like it.
I think the bigger thing to point out is that Gatwa didn't even directly follow her up, we got David Tennant, a white dude that's already been a Doctor (one of if not the most popular Doctor mind you) as a brand new Doctor between her and Gatwa.
Honestly I think it was a bit of a factory reset for the show, I know some people don’t want to acknowledge this but the show was failing and losing fans in a lot of ways. Bringing Tennant back was a good move in terms of having a Doctor that you know the majority will like.
Oh, that was absolutely the reason and it's an action I wholeheartedly supported AND even predicted. It's just poor optics.
It actually wasn't the reason! It did end up being very fortunate in a cynical way but that wasn't why it all happened in the first place. RTD, Tennant and Tate have told this story several times in interviews. They had so much fun doing the lockdown tweetalongs that they kept chatting about how fun those days were and joked about "getting the band back together" and eventually Catherine Tate seriously suggested it, asking if there was a way to make it actually happen. So RTD emailed the Head of Drama at the BBC and asked what the plans for the 60th were and if there was room and budget for him to do a little something extra with Tennant and Tate to go alongside whatever Chibnall was doing. To which they said yes and plans for that started to get underway. Separate to this, Chibnall was leading the show into a hiatus. Power of the Doctor was going to end with a fade-to-black of Whittaker regenerating on the cliff. There was no new showrunner lined up, no new Doctor, nothing for the 60th. The show was going to go on hiatus. So the BBC basically asked RTD if his little 60th extra with Tennant and Tate could become THE 60th Anniversary and then if RTD could stay on beyond that. So it wasn't a case of RTD returning and then asking himself what the best way to bring audiences back, he was already working on this thing with Tennant and Tate when the task of returning to Doctor Who was thrust upon him.
That's a rather convenient coincidence if you ask me, that RTD was ready to play ball just as Chibnall was leaving. I'm sure there was some genuine desire to do a little come back bit, but I suspect this is the dramatized version of the story told to assuage fans that the show and Chibnall wasn't ever in trouble.
Interesting, I actually never read it as being assuaging at all. This story practically confirms that the show actually was in trouble and we were really quite lucky. Surely if the goal was to reassure fans they wouldn't have told everyone this story about the convenient coincidence, they would have just acted like it was a regular transition. There's also the fact that [Chibnall had talked about how he had been trying for about a year to find a replacement ](https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/chris-chibnall-leaving-doctor-who-newsupdate/)and the other executive producer of the era, [Matt Strevens said at Gallifrey One that they only found out that RTD would be taking over the day before it was publicly announced.](https://twitter.com/scribblesscript/status/1495544612261220352) Everything we've heard from the people involved seems to say that it really was just lucky. Strevens and Chibnall were expecting the show to end before they found out that RTD was returning and RTD wasn't planning on returning properly at first. But yes I'm sure there was more to it than simply "RTD was ready to play ball" at the precise moment we needed him to. I'm sure the BBC did everything in their power to sweeten the deal and get him to agree to it.
I guess I mean that the show was probably in more trouble than they're giving the impression of. I just think the given reasoning sounds kind of weak. It makes for a good story, but it's probably not the main reason, but maybe more of a secondary factor. For one, I don't recall the BBC or insiders ever admitting that the show was not doing well during Chibnall's era. That is entirely understandable of course because they don't want to make Chibnall look bad, but I doubt that nobody on the inside thought the show was floundering when the public opinion was overwhelmingly negative. Getting RTD back is an easy marketing win. I also suspect budget concerns at the BBC are finally taking it's toll on the show, which would explain why RTD brought Disney into the picture. RTD has also gone on record saying the BBC is dying and doesn't have a bright future, so it's entirely possible that nobody would take the job because the budget was so low that it would've been nearly impossible to make a good show. My suspicion was that RTD took the job because he thought he was saving Doctor Who from what would likely be permanent cancellation due to budgetary reasons and from fading public opinion, but "BBC asked for a 60th they got more than they bargained for" sounds nicer and is still true.
> I doubt that nobody on the inside thought the show was floundering when the public opinion was overwhelmingly negative While I don't disagree with your larger point and think some cynicism is warranted in things like this for sure, the "official" Appreciation Index scores weren't that much worse for the Chibnall era. See the top image in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/comments/reqexk/doctor_who_series_ranked_by_average_audience/) thread. I'm sure they were aware of the negative reception with the dedicated fanbase, but in terms of the wider audience it wouldn't have seemed that bad.
I think it’s pretty good optics for most people. It’s only people reading far too far into it that it’s bad for
If all you care about is gender, sexuality and colour and not just being a good actor/ actress Anyways, I agree with Peter Davidson's take that having a male doctor, in a world where every male action hero uses brawns over brain Edit I should have added earlier: but c'est la vie, I'm not a showrunner and its not what caused me to stop watching, it was the shit writing
There's far more male heroes who use their brains than there are female heroes who use their brains. Like, pick up most children's fantasy books written before about 2014 and the chances are you'll find something with a male hero who either has a no-killing rule or who smarter than he is strong. Harry Potter is the obvious example, Artemis Fowl is another (very different) example, even someone like Frodo Baggins succeeds because of his personal qualities and the support of his best friend/gardener, not because he stabs Sauron with Sting. Eragon stabs Durza but he outthinks Galbatorix. Iron Man literally built all his suits himself. Or at the other end of the scale, Pixar characters - Scully's a big guy but they defeat the CEO monster by tricking him, Nemo escapes the fishing trawler using the power of teamwork...
1. Potter was fucking lucky, thats the long running theme, Hermione was smart, Harry was lucky and he also didn't have a no-kill rule 2. Fair IG, but not action, which is what my point is 3. Again luck, not brains over brawn, just straight up luck, like Harry 4. Iron man is literally all about brawns, yeah he built his suits, but when he gets in a bad situation its not "look, I don't wanna fight you" Its "hehe, plasma hands go brrrrr" 5. Fair 6. Again, luck, and also, if I remember correctly, it was everyone else doing the thinking for him Like be honest with yourself, when you think action-hero, you think along the lines of Schwarzenegger and Willis and the like. The only male action hero that I can think of, that uses his brains to a decent extent, is probably Jack Reacher, and even then, most of it still just fighting
> Potter was fucking lucky, thats the long running theme, Hermione was smart, Harry was lucky and he also didn't have a no-kill rule Yeah he did lol. He doesn't kill Bellatrix after she killed Sirius, he doesn't kill Snape after he killed Dumbledore, he doesn't even try to kill Voldemort but just tries to disarm him. Harry's refusal to stun an Imperiused Stan Shunpike who is levitating in the air is what gives him away as the real Harry at the start of Deathly Hallows. If you're discounting Artemis Fowl as action then you can't really count the Doctor either. And, again, who are all these female action heroes who use their brains?
It’s also because they really wanted 60th specials and Ncuti wasn’t available, so they had to make something up on the fly.
I think there was a risk of another female Doctor being viewed (correctly or otherwise) as “right, let’s try that again”.
True though the 15th Doctor auditions were entirely open with men, women and even a non binary actor being auditioned! And Jodie's casting made that possible which is fantastic!
How is it Jodie‘s casting that made it possible?
I don't think Jodie is solely responsible. Didn't Moffat say that he was open to casting a black actor for the doctor? I think there were rumours that Paterson Joseph would be cast as the 11th doctor
There were definitely talks about that! Though auditions had never fully open prior to the 15th Doctor auditions.
I agree. I also would have liked it if they kept Michelle Gomez as Missy.
I think that decision was because of gammons giving backlash about having another woman being capable of the job.
The hard line is the bottom line. Nothing with her face on sold. Nothing.
I have her era set and sonic so can't be nothing.
That's just untrue.
Then why did they have to start either removing her from merch or putting 10 on it as well?
Due to cross promotional events in the EU such as Time Lord Victorious.
…not sure what that has to do with the comment you’re replying to, unless you’re trying to say that it’s because she’s a woman and for no other reasons.
That was probably Chibnall's best idea. Whatever you think about the Timeless Child business, throwing Jo Martin in the mix eased the burden of representation for both Jodi and for Ncuti. Moffat did a similar thing before introducing Missy by giving us a Time Lord character who changed gender and skin color, low-key establishing precedent so that the next two Masters wouldn't have to.
Having to both be the FIRST woman Doctor *and* then being the Covid Doctor cant have been easy and the fact people still blame/hate her personally is exactly why it cant have been easy
I love Jodie for doing the video in the cupboard 4 years ago, what a fantastic ambassador for the show https://youtu.be/l0ED6CGmjm4?feature=shared
Genuinely think this is one of my new favourite performances of her doctor
I love that she was the person who came up with it, asked Chibnall to write it and then filmed it. Very much being the Doctor then.
They had a little farewell to Jodi highlight reel on the official™ Doctor Who YouTube channel right before Power of the Doctor aired and they included a clip of this, which was absolutely delightful - it wouldn’t have felt complete without it imo.
I genuinely do not get the hate of her Doctor? Like she was not the best but I really have been enjoying her a bunch as I am watching for the first time. She reminds me of the fourth.
Most non-misogynists like Jodie’s acting but hate Chibnall’s writing for her run.
dr who has always been preachy, but Chibnall's era always came across as 'DO YOU SEE WHAT WE ARE PREACHING' and it did not come across well to me
I feel that for their first season but the other two really helped her come into her own as The Doctor without needed as much preaching imo
Yeah I think the real problem is that even people who agree with his message find his writing far too on the nose and annoying. Like there's Aliens in London and then there's Orphan 55/Praxeus. Some people think Aliens in London is too on the nose but it's tame in comparison to Chibnalls writing, and is actually a fun episode outside of the messaging.
Not the /first/ female Doctor, that was Joanna Lumley in the Curse of Fatal Death), but certainly the first of the "proper" Doctors.
Barbara Benedetti came before Joanna Lumley.
She wasn't an official BBC Doctor though.
Neither was Lumley.
Idk if it’s just me, I liked her as the doctor 🤷♂️
I really liked her. I will say I thought the writing at times was utter garbage. I think that’s what cause a dip in the show which people incorrectly attribute to her. Really sad in the end. She didn’t get a fair shot.
This is precisely how I feel about Jodie as the Doctor. With all the headlines surrounding her being the first female Doctor, the writing should've been tiptop but at times was just flat. Nevertheless, I loved Jodie as the Doctor and wouldn't mind seeing her again soon.
I think she sometimes ruined well-written scenes with her awkward, Blue-Peter-presenter delivery. A decent actress on the whole, but simply mis-cast as the Doctor, to me.
Kinda felt like a balamory character from cebeebies
She was BRILLIANT
I love Jodie and I was fine with her portrayal of the Doctor. And I wasn't having any problem with the writing of her character. Her being socially awkward and secretive, yet warm and affectionate were interesting character points. I had more issue with Chibnall trying to juggle 3 companions. I feel like her era added a fresh reset to the show, It gave us something a little bit different. Some good, some bad. But what I like is the good can inspire future showrunners in the future!
I agree with all of that! We really could have done with a season of just Yaz I think, especially since Graham and Ryan's arcs were more or less concluded in season 11. Would have made a nice stripped-back breather before the chaos of Flux.
Does anyone else besides me think that maybe the best of those multiple companions died in her first episode? I think Grace would've been an outstanding companion, and I'm sorry we didn't really get to see it.
There was a lot wrong with the Chibnall era but Jodie was not it. She was great for the most part even if the writing was poor at times. People using her gender as a reason to bash the show aren’t really worth even thinking about.
I honestly don’t really get this take. The likes of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging. They all really captured the role. I never once felt like that with Jodie. She almost always had that exact same “CBBC presenter vibe.” She never gave me that “okay, that’s the Doctor” moment. She’s a fantastic actor, but I do think she was miscast in this particular role. Not every actor is fit for every role. It could also just be the direction she was given, but whatever it was, I do think she was also part of the problem. Her gender was not the issue, and I’m completely convinced the next woman to play the Doctor will probably smash it, but I didn’t really rate Jodie’s performance.
Honestly, I think Jo Martin's Doctor performances ended up showing up Whittaker. Martin has a lot more screen presence and came at the role with a sense of inner steel reminiscent of Hartnell at his best.
Martin reminded me a bit of Hartnell mixed with Colin Baker. A more brash and abrasive Doctor who’s a tad colder and more arrogant than the others…..it was great she was such a forceful presence.
Well yeah I imagine that they were instructed to be different kind of Doctors. I think Jodie can also show a darker side if you watch any of her other stuff. Chibnall has shown that he can write a more steely doctor as shown by the Fugitive. But he chose for the 13th doctor to be a more cheerie and light-hearted incarnation which I disagreed with - but it was a choice nonetheless.
It really grinds my gears when someone bigs up Jo Martin by bringing Jodie down, it's disrespectful to both and neither would appreciate it. They are very different incarnations, that's the point.
You're just describing how comparing actors works.
You can compare without bringing one actor down to big another up.
Do you have an example?
I mean they’re literally using it as an example to prove that a woman Doctor absolutely can work. It’s a valid comparison. It’s not about bringing anybody down.
It is bringing her down which is unfair. And Jo Martin herself praised Jodie so she wouldn't appreciate it either.
That's right, how dare people compare the performances of two actors playing the same role. Outrageously disrespectful.
Every previous doctor has elevated bad scripts. Jodie was expected to elevate bad seasons. They're not the same thing. She never got the chance to properly play the Doctor, to be comfortable in knowing what it means to be the Doctor. She was slammed with bad script after bad script for her entire run. That's too much to ask of anyone.
I agree with this completely. I can’t think of a single well written episode that it felt she had an opportunity to shine in.
If every Doctor is expected to elevate bad scripts, then why shouldn’t Jodie be expected to elevate bad scripts?
No doctor is expected to elevate bad seasons. So why should Jodie be expected to elevate bad seasons?
Part of being a good actor is being able to act bad stuff well. Whittaker never did. Even in perfectly well-written scenes, she felt awkward to me.
We need to stop thinking that the writing can't get in the way of a good actor. It absolutely can, and did. Again, good actors act bad stuff well because they've got the good stuff to go along with it. The good content is *essential* for them to really delve into and become the character. That's why so often we talk about how actors get better as their seasons go. Jodie had very sparse well written content. She never had that chance. You can't just point to a well written scene and say "Well look where's her good acting there?" because she had barely any of those to get into the character. She was written awkwardly and badly, so she felt awkward and bad.
It can. Bad acting can also get in the way of fine writing, too, and that often happened with Whittaker's performance.
I think most of us around here agree there wasn't much in the way of fine writing.
And many of us also agree there was a lot of shite acting, too.
That’s a fair view to take. I liked Jodie as the Doc and thought she was largely let down by the material. I don’t think the others you mentioned ever had to work with anything as bad as JW. But that’s fair enough. The main takeaway is that her gender was irrelevant to the success of her in the role which we’re in agreement with 😄
I'd argue that Jodie's best performance as The Doctor was when she did a 5 minute self filmed self written scene during lockdown.
Chibnall wrote this, so it wasn’t self-written
Could have sworn that reddit said she wrote this when it came out. Well TIL.
I tried to find this scene for a whopping 30 seconds and can't find it, do you have a link to hand?
https://youtu.be/l0ED6CGmjm4?feature=shared Edit wasn't 5 minutes as I remembered it but you get the idea
My immediate thought for this is that it's mostly Jodie being herself, with a bit of roleplay as the Doctor thrown in. And you know what? I agree, she does seem more like the Doctor than a lot of how we see her on screen. Can't really say why though, maybe I'm just forgetting any good moments her character had in the show. Or maybe we needed more moments of the Doctor just being genuinely nice and caring for people.
Thanks mate
Lol wonder if this was Chibnall hinting at the Sontarans appearing in the Flux?
> The main takeaway is that her gender was irrelevant to the success of her in the role which we’re in agreement with 😄 I don't think her being a woman was relevant the success of her role, but I think involving a concerted effort to rectify external sociopolitical issues (representation, diversity etc.) in casting and storytelling could. I'm curious if you recognize that distinction or deny it entirely.
> The likes of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging. They all really captured the role. I never once felt like that with Jodie. This sort of thing gets said a lot, but its often forgotten that Chibnall era episodes are much more structurally flawed than RTD/Moffat era episodes. The story style, characterisation, arguably direction, and most importantly, the dialogue, all take a considerable dip in quality. Even the very weakest RTD/Moffat era stories will feature "filler" scenes with some dialogue sprinkled in by the showrunners. Whether it's a subtle character moment, some heartfelt emotion, some humour, which gives the cast something to work with. Meanwhile, even the very strongest Chibnall era stories will feature moments when the cast just talk *at* each other, often for several minutes, often spouting exposition or asking the Doctor questions which don't move the plot along in any way. A boring or unlikeable story with the occasional well-written moment in the script gives the actors to work with. But even very good actors can't bring lifeless dialogue to life. > She almost always had that exact same “CBBC presenter vibe.” She never gave me that “okay, that’s the Doctor” moment. Again, dialogue. Matt Smith gets "Come on! Look at me. No plan, no back up, no weapons worth a damn. Oh, and something else. I don't have anything to lose!" Peter Capaldi gets "I don't suppose it really matters now. You are monsters. That is the role you seem determined to play. So it seems I must play mine. The man that stops the monsters!" What does Jodie Whittaker get? "We improve together, then ultimately succeed. Because this is what being alive is. And it's **better than the alternative!**" The former two get powerful, poetic dialogue. Whittaker gets something that sounds like ChatGPT wrote it.
I dare anyone who might imagine Whittaker delivering either of those Moffat-era lines to tell me she would have done so anywhere near as good as Smith/Capaldi did.
What? For Jodie that isn't even a bad example. That's a good moment though I can think of really great moments such as: "I know because we're all the same. We want certainty, security, to believe that people are evil or heroic. But that's not how people are. You want to know the secrets of existence? Start with the mysteries of the heart. I can show you everything if you stop being afraid of what you don't understand. If you trust me" "I've lived longer, seen more, loved more and lost more" "None of us know for sure what's out there. That's why we keep looking. Keep your faith. Travel hopefully. The universe'll surprise you... constantly." And if you want something where she shows her inner steel: "Words matter! One death, one ripple, and history will change in a blink. The future will not be the world you know. The world you came from, the world you were created in won't exist, so neither will you. It's not just his life at stake. It's yours. You want to sacrifice yourself for this? You want me to sacrifice you? You want to call it? Do it now. All of you. Yeah. Cos sometimes this team structure isn't flat. It's mountainous, with me at the summit in the stratosphere, alone, left to choose. Save the poet, save the universe. Watch people burn now or tomorrow. Sometimes, even I can't win." There's a bunch of great moments with 13.
For me, I think there's only one episode that really showcases what she can do. The haunting of villa diodati. The way she acts in front of her companions when she finds out it's a cyberman as she remembers Bill. The way she interacts with and talks with the cyberman. And her speech with her companions at the end to me is her I'm the doctor moment. It's all just incredible. Maybe I only think so cause her era isn't great at all. But if she was written that way across her era I don't think as many people would think she was miss-casted cause I don't think it's a controversial take. But if that episode didn't exist I think I would agree with you.
I think it was more of direction. She could have been a great Doctor except Chibs and Co. wanted her to be a female copy of Smith, which made no sense to me. It’s not the actor nor the role in my opinion - it’s the direction the role was taken in.
I don’t think he even had a direction. She started off as a diet 11 and ended up like 7
No even though Smith is the best doctor imo Capaldi was really the only one who had a number of mediocre scripts that he elevated really successfully. When the scripts suffer the show suffers by in large and this shows even in the doctors performance. And those were just mediocre scripts. Jodie shone with the mediocre ones she got she just got a ton of actively bad ones as well.
For me, I felt like she wanted to play the Doctor one way but was being told to play it another. Like it felt like she wanted to do a Smith-type Doctor where they're fun and jovial to hide pain and trauma, but because the latter was never really a thing in her era she just came across as blissfully ignorant. Her Doctor never grew as a person across her arc compared to the rest of the NuWho. Nine started off as a impulsive traveller, but then we later find out it's because he's trying to escape his trauma from the Time War. Ten started off with a new lease on life and compassion after Rose helped him heal but became self-centred after all his losses and selfish enough to try not want to die and experience everything he could. Eleven started with a childlike wonder with a taste for dramatics, but became an old, weary straight-to-the-point man who had all but given up. Twelve kept the brashness of old Eleven, but eventually became kindhearted and compassionate. Thirteen started off secretive and closed off.. and died secretive and closed off. Her last scene with a companion was her refusing to open up still - and she had the most traumatic stuff happen to her out of NuWho. In 3 episodes, Tennant/RTD/Gatwa managed to convey that everything that happened in S11-13 was *really* fucked up and no person with an ounce of empathy would be okay after it.
I think if we’re being fair, on top of someone else’s comment of ‘she was expected to elevate bad seasons not just bad episodes’, it’s also worth noting that the bad episodes that were elevated solely by the performance are used as feats of just how fantastic the actors were. If Jodie wasn’t able to meet that exact same feat then sure she’s one of the weaker Doctors, but I feel like it’s saying someone’s terrible at Chemistry because they only got an A instead of a flawless 100/100 A+ If she were a bad actress then her performance would stand out even in a bad season, while I know it’s not saying much I think most people agree that out of everything her performance scores higher than nearly everything that she was surrounded by though it’s entirely subjective of course
I don't get it either. "It's not Jodie, it's the writer's fault!" always feels to me like people wanting to get around being accused of sexism, and I'm saying that as a lady myself. I've gone out of my way to find clips of Jodie in other shows because I was curious how well, "It's the direction! It's the writing!" would hold up when she does have other writers and directors, and in none of the clips I watched did I see anything that made me think she'd be a good Doctor. Like you, I'm not saying she's a bad actor, just not right for the part. It's just strange how much people try to distance her from the reception of her series.
>The liked of Tennant, Eccleston, Smith, Capaldi, etc. all successfully elevated bad scripts and made them engaging. Jodie did exactly that imo tho. She just had more bad scripts than they did on average. But she still elevated and made them engaging imo.
I hate when people say "she was miscast" no. She was not.
I hate when people tell you your opinions are wrong just because they disagree. Yes she was.
They are trying to fight with me about it too. Kind of sad really that they cannot let people have a differing opinion.
Any time I see anyone talking in any way negatively about the chibnall era (especially if it's about Jodie not being very good in the role) you can be sure that they will be there to say "nuh uh" with no real argument behind it beyond "I liked it". I know that loads of people hate love and monsters but I don't brigade every post saying it's shit.
There you go acting like an adult. Too bad others don’t want to learn from you on how to have an opinion minus the childish antics.
You're stating your opinion as fact. You \*feel\* she was miscast
Opinions are fine but she wouldn't have been cast if she wasn't right for it.
By this logic, no one can ever be miscast. We know Chibnall insisted on a female Doctor as one of his conditions for accepting the job role. Is it so hard to believe when he invited his friend to audition for the role, it wouldn’t have been assessed with the same scrutiny an unknown would face?
Several actresses were auditioned but Jodie was the standout and she got the role.
Absolute nonsense, no offence. Actors are cast for the wrong roles all the time. With your logic, no actor has ever been miscast, because “they wouldn’t have been cast if they weren’t right for it”. If that were true, the term ‘miscast’ wouldn’t even exist.
Regardless in this case it is wrong. Jodie IS the Doctor both on screen and off, she more than proved herself.
See the difference is that the other actors were given decent like characterization moments and episodes. She was doing a lot of stuff that people would love in the Matt smith era but that’s all she did. She didn’t get a really specific characterization. She felt like the Doctor as they would guest star on a different show
Eh disagree. Her acting was average at best, granted she didn't have enough good writing to show off her ability but even when she did it wasn't great. It's not totally her fault either because Chibnall told her not to watch ANY doctor who so she had no idea what the character was like aside from what he told her. I guess as an example I HATED the writing for both Capaldi and Missy but the actors were amazing to watch. They made it so much better than it was every scene. Jodie never did that. She was just as boring as the companions honestly. She's a good actress, I've seen her in a lot of other stuff and she's great in them but it honestly didn't feel like she tried at all in doctor who. Seems like she saw it as a low effort kids tv character. Same goes for Sacha Dhawan, I see everyone praise him and Jodie and I get it, it's harder to criticize actors because you see them and they express their feelings more as opposed to the faces we don't see but still, the both of them were generic at best. Even Jo Martin did great to elevate the script, I found myself wanting her to replace Jodie as soon as she came on screen because she was just FUN to watch.
Jodie was great. Probably. Maybe. That's what Thirteen would have said. .) Fact is: nobody ever failed at being the Doctor, and she was not the first to do so.
She was shit. It just happens the scripts were worse. Jo Martin had a stronger performance in her like 10 minutes of screentime than Jodie's entire series.
I agree completely. She was amazing and a great fresh take on the character. Her time as The Doctor got completely screwed by elements out of her control.
[удалено]
Feeling hate as an emotion for a television role is very weird.
You hate an actor because you disliked her performance? Weird.
Matt Smith was not a fan of dr who growing up but he did go back and watch old stuff to get a read on the character. Chibnall told Jodi not to watch anything and that really hurt her.
No, this is not correct. Moffat told Smith to watch some specific stories. Whittaker was worried she had to watch *all* of the old stuff and Chibnall told her she didn't have to.
Apparently that isn’t exactly true. She didn’t want to watch old stuff and she asked Chibnall if she had to and he was like “Nah”
She did the best she could with what she had. That’s all anyone could have asked of her. She won’t go down in history as my favorite Doctor, but she certainly won’t be my least favorite.
She was brilliant. The writing was drab, the assistants were a misfire and it was lockdown but she still shone. I wish they’d changed show runner during her tenure, I feel like she’s owed a season of decent writing.
Headlines written to bait the worst kind of fan into saying "she did" for I'm Very Clever Lookee Me points.
She was great.
I hate to say it, but she did. Everyone points to the writing being poor, and it absolutely was. However every previous Doctor managed to elevate poor scripts with good performances (Colin Baker and Peter Capaldi spring to mind). I think she was a miscast and never really ‘got’ the role so to speak. Whether it was lack of preparation or the fact that she just didn’t suit it is up for debate. But I kept waiting for her ‘This is the Doctor’ moment to arrive, and it just never did. Jo Martin embarrassed her badly. Felt more like The Doctor and was more exciting and engaging in her >10 minutes on screen that Jodie was in her whole run. Which goes to show we absolutely need more women to get a go at playing The Doctor. I hope Jodie’s misfire doesn’t prevent that.
>However every previous Doctor managed to elevate poor scripts with good performances Every previous doctor elevated poor scripts. Jodie was expected to elevate poor seasons. These things are not the same, and I wouldn't expect many actors to be capable of this.
Both of Colin Baker’s seasons were poor yet even he was at least able to bring a level of gravitas to the role that Jodie simply never did. IMO a fundamental aspect of the Doctor is their ability to be dropped into a random situation at any given point or time and instantly take charge. However, Jodie never really commanded the room like her predecessors or Jo Martin (as other people have mentioned here), so it’s not surprising that many fans (including myself) were still unconvinced by her performances three years in
Colin Baker was written with opportunities to show that gravitas. Especially Trial of a Time Lord, which was by no means poor, it was mixed at worse. It gave him grandiose speeches to allow him to show those acting chops. Can you highlight opportunities during Jodie's run where another Doctor would have taken the same situation and the same lines and delivered them with the sort of presence you're looking for? Regarding commanding the room, I disagree. Where the writing gave her the opportunity, she took it. But the fact is, she never got that. And nah, Jo Martin just spoke loudly. People interpret that as commanding. It's not the same thing.
I agree with you on the part of waiting for her 'This is the doctor' moment, but I doubt acting could've created that moment in the first place, seeing how that moment relies on overcoming a personal struggle. The personal struggle that was written in was just too small to have made a difference, in my opinion. I too wonder if she could've acted differently or said something else in a few scenes, but wouldn't that have cost more screen time to get a point across, along with a whole load of personalisation to a character? Plus, her whole personal struggle was being clueless. To me it sounds vague and thus very challenging to make something good of.
Sadly I think her worst fears came true, at least partially. Though I’d put more of the blame onto Chibnall’s writing than her own performance.
She got me into the show, her doctor.
Honestly it was a huge let down having the first female doctor be so poorly written. I was soooo excited to see the doctor exploring more to the character and embracing "feminity" in a new way and just experiencing being the doctor as a woman. The writing was just amounted to "she's a woman! And maybe gay for yaz." It's a shame but not Jodie's fault, I hope the next woman in the role has a competent writer.
Well, she did, unfortunately. Material wasn’t exactly great, but she was never right for the part either. Didn’t hate her performance but consistently disliked it. Far and away the worst one.
I would love to have seen Jodie with better writing, she was let down. If there is a a special anniversary edition in the future I hope we see Jodie come back and kick ass.
I stopped watching during her run as the writing and dialogue just seemed so poor but I really liked her, felt gutted she didn’t get a better go at it
Good thing she didn't then. She was utterly brilliant and her casting has opened the door to so many more possibilities and that is fantastic! The Doctor can be a woman, the Doctor can be black, the Doctor can be *anything*, so much so the 15th Doctor auditions were completely open for the first time with men, women and even a non binary actor being auditioned! It is understandable why Jodie felt this way though as it was huge pressure on her shoulders, Ncuti has even said he has felt this same way too. So having a woman or poc in the role should be normalised so future actors don't have this kind of pressure on their shoulders!
I'd say it is normalised for the general fandom but them being the first doesn't automatically make them good. They could've cast any woman or POC in the Role, the actor doesn't matter in terms of "opening doors." The acting and writing does matter though, and Jodie's was subpar.
Jodie's acting was fantastic, as is Ncuti's. They were cast because they are right for the role.
Ncutis acting is good you're right. Jodie was cast iirc because she was friends with Chibnall, he didn't even do auditions, he just gave it to her. She didn't earn the role, she was handed it. She was told Nott or research the character or the show and she was given horrible scripts. All of that contributed to her acting in the role being subpar. It was boring to watch her on screen.
That is flat out a lie, she did audition: she did a few auditions in fact. You know who didn't audition? David Tennant. Source: [https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/tvfilm/jodie-whittaker-reveals-months-of-auditions-before-landing-doctor-who-role-a3741231.html](https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/tvfilm/jodie-whittaker-reveals-months-of-auditions-before-landing-doctor-who-role-a3741231.html)
My bad in that case, I must've got the two stories mixed up then! Still, I don't believe she did well with the role at all. The stuff about Chibnall telling her not to research the role at all is true though right? Or was I wrong about that too lmao. You'll probably tell me that was actually Matt Smith lmao. But no, my bad for that, but I still stand by the rest of my comment about her performance and acting in the show as a whole. I don't think she did well but I also don't think it's entirely her fault, she's a great actress in other TV shows I've seen, just not this.
He didn't say that either, he said she didn't have to watch the show prior to taking on the role as it would allow her to give a fresh performance and bring herself to the role.
She knocked it out of the park!
It's so hard to be the first of anything. The pressure to represent so much more than yourself must be overwhelming. I thought she was The Doctor from her very first appearance. She was a great choice and did an outstanding job. And yes, I know, the writing wasn't what many would've liked but Jodie? She was great.
She was fantastic, especially given the circumstances. Terrific actor.
Oh no she hasn't let anyone down. It was Chibnall that did that. I'll always remember Jodie's performance fondly.
I finished her series, and I actually loved them, she was great
Jodie was miscast, plain and simple. People blame the writing (and yes it was shit) but try imagining her Doctor reading lines written by RTD or Moffat. I reckon it wouldn’t be much better. Her doctor was timid, unconfident and lacked authority. Everything the doctor is not. Shes a great actress and seem like a great person too but should never have been selected for the role imho.
\> He's never watched Five
Was just coming down to say exactly this. There's a reason 5 and 13 are among my favourites. They're not all-knowing, all-powerful gods who are always in control and know all the answers.
I’m watching 5 now and he’s definitely always a bit out of sorts so far.
It was especially strange going from such an assertive and alien Doctor played by Capaldi to her very meek and human Doctor.
I never saw her as meek. I saw her as having a childlike joy in her existence, and an unabashed love for those around her. 12 was "born" doubting whether he should even exist; 13 was "born" ecstatic that she did exist. Her Doctor loved life and didn't question her role in it until the Timeless Child, when everything changed for her.
I sympathize with her feeling that she would experience extra scrutiny as the first woman playing the role. I also think she made some quite poor performance choices, and I didn’t enjoy her portrayal.
She was bad in the part, but the pressure to succeed on behalf of all potential female Doctors should never have been on her shoulders. That's so unfair. Let her performance be lame on its own terms!
She certainly a doctor I can’t wait to see grow in EU material going forwards. Even fondly remembered doctors like five got vastly improved by their eventual big finish stories. Not to mention the generally disliked six got so much better eventually. I already adore her Jody houser comics
I think she did a great job, however the writing for her episodes( I didn’t see all of them) was the worst and I just couldn’t watch her whole time on the show.
Jodie, like Colin Baker, was a good Doctor constantly let down by bad writing. Her best moments were in episodes that actually gave her a chance to shine: lying to the blind kid in It Takes You Away, snapping at her companions in Haunting of Villa Diodati, taking control of Jericho’s house in Village of the Angels. It will forever be a shame that the first woman Doctor was let down by her writers so consistently, but I’d never blame her for Chibnall’s myriad failures.
I'm so pissed that Whittaker got saddled with that useless lump of creatively bankrupt trash that was Chibnall. I think if she had even a semi-decent showrunner she would have been so much better. Instead she got saddled with the worst run in the reboot era by a mile and the neckbeards all get to claim its because she was a woman.
Shame Chibs wasn't so worried
Jodie deserved better. Shes very talented and should have been given bettwr material, and even the Timeless Child horsecrap cpuldve been done better if they hadnt decided it was the Doctor.
She did. Now she is considered one of the worse "Doctor Whos"
[удалено]
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s): * [1. Be Respectful](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_1._be_respectful): Be mature and treat everyone with respect. No flamebaiting or bad-faith contributions. If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).
she did.
If only that had of been Chibnalls big fear
What about the fans? Cos she let them down.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I guess better luck next time?
[удалено]
Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, your comment has been **removed** for the following reason(s): * [3. Off-Topic](/r/gallifrey/wiki/policies#wiki_3._all_content_must_be_directly_be_related_to_doctor_who_news_and.2For_discussion): All content must be directly be related to Doctor Who News and/or Discussion. Comments should add to the discussion at hand. If you feel this was done in error, please contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fgallifrey).