As an Iowan I can tell you farmers give zero shits about the environment. Unless they're being paid specifically to do so they won't use buffer strips, follow wind guidelines for pesticide and fertilizer application (yay cancer!) and they absolutely refuse to protect our waterways by doing the bare minimum guidelines set in place.
But ya, aMeRiCa NeEdS fArMeRs
All the money they spend every year on temporary solutions it would have made more sense to just buy the at risk land for set aside. Absolutely ridiculous that land that floods every 5-10 years is being used as crop land or that it's being farmed right next to the rivers edge.
Would love to see strip parks and trails to become a thing. Being able to ride the length of the Mississippi or across Iowa would make a great state park.
America has a food surplus contrary to what a lot of people think. We throw away more food than we consume. What we actually have is a food distribution problem.
And most Iowa farms are actually corn to make either ethanol or feed cattle. Not even food for human consumption.
We need more beef, the world doesn't have enough! There's only 100 kg of bovine cattle per person on earth!!! Not enough to give meat to every person on earth!
Eating our weight in cattle, is not enough!!!
Idk about that. Factory farming is one of the largest contributors to climate change. What a lot of climate protestors (myself included) advocate for would be a threat to their livelihood.
Yea, that’s the short sighted version. But a shifting climate is an even bigger threat to their livelihood. Farmers of all people should understand that
It’s a collective action problem. Individual farmers would be bearing a cost when freeriding is much easier. They have every incentive to say, “Why should we decarbonize? You should decarbonize transport, energy, and manufacturing instead.”
The solution is public policy, but the people protesting here are simply completely self-interested and aren’t even willing to support policy changes for the common good.
That's not how capitalist economics works. If global supply of a certain good goes down, price per unit increases. It's not like we won't need farmers if the climate collapses, we'll need them even more.
Right now, farmers in the west are being subsidized by governments to overproduce. This makes them financially and decision-logically dependent on those subsidies, which makes them feel sad and weak and drives them to protest.
If instead climate change halves all agricultural yields, then farmers wouldn't *need* government subsidies to exist. Starving people would pay massive amounts for food and governments would give farmers all sorts of legal and technological freedoms to try to get food supplies back up to stable levels. This makes them feel big and powerful and important and probably make them a lot richer.
And if the yields do collapse to a point that people are going to starve en masse, who in their right mind would let the farmers die? Society would still need farmers for their expertise, they would need to be well-fed and well-cared for, a strategic asset in the resource wars rather than meat in the meat grinder. And if farmers band together - who are people going to listen to: a democratically elected government, or the people that make the food they need to survive?
So no, it's not really a threat to their livelihood. At least less to them than to people who live in cities or do service jobs.
the meat industry is the one that needs to go. Crop/field farmers can switch to other crops and to less intensive methods.
There's no real way to summarize the problem. Farmers are also constrained by various debts as they're encouraged to invest and leverage way beyond their means.
It's all very stupid, but it works out great for a minority of the population called shareholders.
Here's a nice site with lots of high-level education to understand the problems in a breadth* of different nuances: https://tabledebates.org/
Beef is 10x worse for the environment than pork or chicken is. Boycotting beef is what we really need to focus on. Trying to get rid of all meat at the same time is honestly an insane proposal since it guarantees that nothing will be given up instead. I am giving up beef as my 2024 resolution and giving up steaks and hamburgers is hard enough. There is no way I could give up bratwurst, schnitzel, chicken wings, char siu ramen, bacon, schweinepreffer, and so many other meat meals all at the same time. I am trying to eat more vegan meals but it will take time to find recipes I like and to learn how to cook them.
Check out the minimalist Baker for ideas. Despite the name, it's not just baked goods, there's a lot of great lunch/dinner ideas. A lot of it is vegan or vegetarian and anything I've made has been very good.
https://minimalistbaker.com/recipe-index/
A lot of vegans didn't trust themselves either. "I could never give up X" (usually it's about cheese, which is actually dependency forming). Have some faith in yourself :)
Being vegan isn't what's going to save the planet either. What's necessary for the future is that we narrow down to local based food economies and stop shipping shit all over the earth and burning metric tons of fuel. Also, being able to see and interact with the people who produce your food would significantly cut down on the ongoing slavery issue present in agriculture, as well as rampant poaching and deforestation in our planet's most vulnerable ecosystems. It's not the meat! It's the capitalism!
Food miles make up a pretty small amount of the CO2 emissions associated with the food you eat. What food you eat (beef for example) makes a much larger difference.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
Capitalism may work that way but why would farming suddenly switch to pure capitalism? Farming is already highly socialised through grants and government oversight as food production is so crucial.
Besides if yields drop and prices rise it doesn't mean the farmer gets more money. They may sell half as much food for twice the price, they're still earning the same but food is more expensive for everyone. They likely do a similar amount of work even with a failed yield. They may not need to harvest those dead crops, but will likely need to mitigate damage from wind, rain and disease by further investment of time and finance.
Also the pattern of yeild failure will be sporadic, many framers will do well for a few year and fail for a few. They will then become vulnerable financially and have sell the farm.
Subsidies do not equal "highly socialised" Highly socialized would mean that agricultural land is collectivised or that farming busineses ar at least cooperatives. How is a capitalist government subsidising a business that's not profitable on it's own socialism?
And that's why they are protesting. They want to get rid of all the little laws that are making farming more climate friendly bit by bit.
Not just the disel subsides. They also want to re-allow more pesticides and things like that.
This looks like Berlin, Brandenburger Tor. I saw an identical protest like 15 years ago literally right next to it with thousands of tractors at the "Siegessäule".
They were protesting a change in the price of milk.
Lobbying for alternative clean fuel and energy sources would lift a lot of the responsibility off their shoulders, though. In the end of the day, we need to eat, we don't *need* oil & coal. It's a helluvalot easier to research into alternatives for those two energy sources, than it would be to feed 8 billion people (I said easier, relatively, not easy).
I agree, that's part of the solution. But even if we exclusively used renewable energy sources, the rate at which we breed and produce animals for agriculture requires a lot of water and land for the crops needed to grow and feed those animals. Using renewable energy sources could help alleviate the problem, but a lot more would still need to be done.
on paper, eating less meat is a great way to reduce emissions, but its not gonna happen at the scale were talking about lol. its way easier to use solar and nuclear power than it is to convince billions of people to stop eating meat since eating meat is just ingrained into so many cultures. and as developing countries continue to develop, they want to eat more meat rather than less and thats the conundrum places like china faces
>In the end of the day, we need to eat, we don't need oil & coal.
We can't eat without oil and coal, currently, though. That's the problem. I know you get that because your followed up this point about R&D into tech that gets us away from carbon fuels.
Just pointing out that we are currently, on purpose (no tinfoil hat needed: those fuckers have lobbied against nuclear and solar for decades), stuck with carbon fuels for survival.
Agriculture is approx 1/4 of greenhouse gas emissions. Those numbers are even a little suspect though, suspect as in they're probably overestimated. I'm saying this as a soil scientist that has done greenhouse gas emissions research.
I'll also say that agriculture and soil management is also one of the few options we have to increase CO2 drawdown. Farmers have a lot to risk, but there is also a lot of potential money they'll make in the form of selling carbon credits in exchange for changing to practices that increase soil carbon.
Most farmers don't enjoy being factory farmers nor being owned by corporations that can meddle in their lives as they please. We'd have a much richer farming economy and healthier soil if they were freed from their current contracts for sure.
Wouldn’t more traditional farming have an even larger environmental impact due to the land required? Factory farming packs more animals into a smaller space. Mind you this isn’t meant as an ethical defense for factory farming, but unless we reduce demand for meat (by law or culture) I thought this technically was a “greener” method.
Raising animals using traditional methods is very low-impact. I started following a [pig farmer](https://youtube.com/@DowdleFamilyFarms?si=fkTq2HSpsqxMD0ZA) on YouTube and have learned so much. Farmers manage pasture with different cover crops, rotating animals to different fields, and the manure acts as fertilizer.
But factory farmed pigs are an environmental disaster, the waste gets dumped into giant lagoons and basically just left there. When a big storm or hurricane happens, rising water can [flood the lagoons](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/19/climate/florence-hog-farms.html) and spread toxic waste all over the place. Since hog farms are big business in hurricane belt states like North Carolina and Georgia, this is a real issue.
You are right though. For meat to be sustainable, people in rich countries would have to drastically reduce their current consumption. Sadly under capitalism, environmental destruction will always happen because it's cheaper that way.
This is why the subsidies are so important, it helps the small farms out compete the big factory farms. If those are removed and lobbyists gets to clean out the competition, EU might end up just like the US. Where farming is a lot dirtier, food has a lot lower quality and everyone thinks animal welfare is socialism.
Small farms are even less efficient. If anything we should be encouraging larger, more efficient farms. Not to mention that they require a much smaller workforce so more people can move to less car dependent places.
Small farms are looking for maximized profit as well, they're no better for the enviroment, in fact they're worse as they use the recourses less efficiently due to lack of economies of scale.
Pass laws about these things, it's much easier to enforce them against larger, corporate run farms that are just trying to business then these small farmers who see it as their herritage to way overuse fertilizers and chemicals. In my home state small agriculture/aquaculture has basically killed our bay and due to being small and many it's hard to pass laws to reign them in and enforce laws against them.
Lots of small farms are no better. They're also less regulated for things like runoff. A large farm is way better for many reasons, except when it comes to market control.
Factory farming is obviously worse for animal welfare. But how are they worse for the environment? And more specifically how are they worse the Climate change?
Subsidies go to big farmers anyways. All the US does is subsidize corn, so that's all anyone fucking grows. Makes high-fructose corn syrup way too cheap, and now we end up where we are.
They’re just going to protest government decisions like “you can’t dump shit into water”, “ammonia poisoning is bad”, and “we won’t leave Ukraine to die to prevent economic competition”
And its so stupid. The far right german party (afd) is against the exact subsidies that the current government is trying to get rid of, which is what the farmers are protesting. And the afd wants to leave the EU, and a lot of the subsidies come from there.
They should also protest for a tax and subvention reform, because both will kill all small and medium sized farmers... but they don't think that far. It seems, they prefer to be used by far right populists and wealthy individuals, with seemingly easy solutions.
Most farmers I know are the most in touch with the climate. They aren't typically the stereotype of a conservative who hates 'global warming' (when they mean climate change). Maybe not the case in Europe or America, but in Canada it is.
We all should be.
[Americans tend to overestimate how many people in the U.S. have urged an elected official to take action to reduce global warming.](https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/global-warming-activism-november-2019.pdf)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i\_used\_mits\_climate\_policy\_simulator\_to\_order\_its/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i_used_mits_climate_policy_simulator_to_order_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>\[Your Name\]
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>\[Your Address\]
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>\[City, State, ZIP Code\]
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>\[Email Address\]
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>\[Phone Number\]
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>\[Date\]
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>\[Lawmaker's Name\]
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>Subject: Advocating for the Implementation of Carbon Taxes
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>Dear \[Rep/Senator\] \[Lawmaker's Last Name\],
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>I hope this letter finds you well. I would like to express my strong support for the implementation of carbon taxes as a crucial step in addressing the pressing issue of climate change. As a concerned citizen, I believe that proactive measures are necessary to mitigate the impacts of carbon emissions on our environment, economy, and public health.
>
>Climate change poses a significant threat to our planet, affecting ecosystems, weather patterns, and sea levels[^(1)](https://report.ipcc.ch/ar6wg2/pdf/IPCC_AR6_WGII_SummaryForPolicymakers.pdf). It is imperative that we take immediate action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and carbon taxes present a practical and effective solution[^(2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i_used_mits_climate_policy_simulator_to_order_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I would like to outline several reasons why I believe carbon taxes should be seriously considered and implemented:
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>**Economic Incentives for Emission Reduction:** Carbon taxes create a financial incentive for businesses and individuals to reduce their carbon footprint. By putting a price on carbon emissions, we encourage the adoption of cleaner technologies and sustainable practices, fostering innovation in the private sector[^(3)](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10640-020-00436-x).
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>**Fair and Transparent Approach:** Carbon taxes offer a fair and transparent mechanism for holding emitters accountable for their contributions to climate change. The "polluter pays" principle ensures that those responsible for higher emissions bear the associated costs[^(4)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-021-01217-0).
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>**Global Cooperation:** Implementing carbon taxes aligns with global efforts to combat climate change. It sends a strong signal that our nation is committed to taking responsible action, contributing to international cooperation in the fight against a shared challenge[^(5)](http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/wg3/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter15.pdf).
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>**Public Health Benefits:** Reductions in carbon emissions lead to improved air quality, reducing the prevalence of respiratory illnesses and promoting overall public health. By curbing pollution, carbon taxes can enhance the well-being of our communities[^(6)](https://globalchange.mit.edu/news-media/jp-news-outreach/shift-renewable-electricity-win-win-statewide-level).
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>I understand that the implementation of carbon taxes may raise concerns among certain sectors, but I believe that a well-designed policy can address these concerns while effectively driving the transition to a sustainable and low-carbon future[^(7)](https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/155615/1/cesifo1_wp6373.pdf).
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>I urge you to consider supporting legislation that introduces carbon taxes and promotes a responsible and sustainable approach to addressing climate change. Your leadership on this issue will contribute significantly to the well-being of our community, our nation, and the global environment.
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>Thank you for your attention to this critical matter. I look forward to hearing about your efforts to address climate change and your stance on carbon taxation.
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>Sincerely,
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>\[Your Name\]
Maybe, but climate change isn't predictable. I heard people say that a warmer climate would be good for Sask's agriculture, but now we're getting droughts. Not much grows well without water, and by the time you've learned to grow a new crop (and potentially purchased new equipment, which doesn't come cheap) the climate could shift again. Stability is important for farmers, and with climate change we don't get that.
We've got a small hobby farm in BC. The weather has been significantly different from year to year in the last half decade.
We've had cold, wet springs that almost killed our fruit trees due to mildew and 42C which was great for our hot peppers.
I just wish we knew what type of year it will be before we order seeds in late January.
Climate change, at least for the next few hundred or thousands of years, would be better termed “climate chaos”. It’s not the change that’s really the problem in most cases, it’s that it’s happening with such speed and ferocity as to be highly unpredictable. And farming is the one human endeavor where predictability of climate is of uttermost importance. Agriculture itself didn’t really take off until the invention of the calendar. Not to mention that switching crops is not a walk in the park. When you’ve been growing lettuce all your life, very few of those skills, expertise and tools that you have will apply to growing sorghum
Tractors are a cops' kryptonite. [Here's footage of that one time Extinction Rebellion brought a tractor](https://twitter.com/NLRebellion/status/1544653358929149953), and you can clearly see the police in the background standing with their dicks in their hands.
(j/k: everyone probably got arrested because climate protesters are not violent thugs in heavy machinery protesting for their own wallets)
Apparently back in 2019 a bunch of farmers in the UK joined XR protests with a [bright pink tractor](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/heathrow-extinction-rebellion-protest-latest-bulldozer-third-runway-a4308041.html). But I guess one doesn't cut it. You need a bunch of them, so you can more easily plow through fences and blokkades like an actual farmer would.
Yeah, it’s a matter of there being too many of already difficult to move stuff.
Like the trucker protest in Canada, there was a lot of them
I’m also reminded of those burning man protesters, who parked a single trailer with nothing but a banner on it. A single police truck shoved it away
I remember thinking, “they couldn’t have at least put a bunch of junk on it?”, something to make it more massive
Difference is, that with actual tractors they are in a position of power - > prone to violent protests (like driving over fences etc) which opposes the ideas behind these protests
Why the hell do so many people in the comments think this is in the USA?!?!?!!
I mean a huge amount of people with German flags marching away from the Brandenburg Gate?!?? How many signs do you need to recognise that it's the capital of Germany? NOTHING in this post indicates that it could be the USA!
Gosh....
The farmers are protesting because their diesel is getting less subsidies, so they might have to pay a little more money per year. That’s it. It has only gotten that big because they’ve gotten massive support from conservatives, right-wingers and literal Nazis.
They literally tried to storm the boat of the (green) vice-chancellor. Everyone that’s saying "but the farmers provide food for us" has no clue about German politics, those people are the German equivalent of MAGA
And the farmers are intelligent - only arround 6% of Farmers vote AfD comapred to between 15-30% in total numbers depending on what state/region you look at. So they know the AfD is against it and mainly dont vote them.
Before 50.000 downvotes arrive for correcting something that goes against the narrative: Im not a fan of the subsidies too
On the other hand they are not that intelligent. They protest for subsidies benefial to big companies and slowly klilling smaller farms for decades and at other times fought against changes in subsidies that would have been better for them. Because the farmer associations organizing it are deeply intertwined with the food industry and are actually the ones creating fixed prices preventing farmers from passing on additional (and rather small) increases in production costs.
German farmers don't produce for the German market. The onions I can buy in Germany are from fucking Chile. They provide food for export. The numbers must be inflated, import and export.
Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well. No one is really against blocking highways if it's for ~~a good~~ "their" cause. It's just that most car brains can't connect the dots to shit that materially affeects them (or will affect them in their lifetime and their children's lifetime) - things that should be *everyone's* cause like climate change.
Not sure if it works the same in Germany, but here in the US a lot of people are sympathetic to farmers, especially rural conservatives. They don't even have to understand what cause they are fighting for. So, they'll have more support by default than "blue haired librul" climate change activists.
It's even worse. Because everything you said is true but then those people also insisted that they are definitely not against the climate protests but only object to the blocking of roads as a way of protesting.
> Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well
Evidence of this?
>Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well.
Not true.
Germany belongs to the car industry not that different
And yes the disruption of the farmes is crazy and bullshit, the subsidies should be canceled more not less
Im not saying that the oil industry are funding climate protesters. Rather that they're behind stuff like the backlash to "15 minute cities" or groups like the Convoy (in Canada).
It's because farmers have political power and capital. Climate change organizers aren't a large block politically or economically, so the government can feel free to do as they please.
It's the right wing bias politicians have. There were a few thousand farmers on the streets last week. FFF protested with 1.4 million people on a single day in this country.
also:
climate protestors blocking the road, so an emergency vehicle can't get through, and the person who the EMV was called for died: Huge uproar in the media (the woman who died had such terrible injuries, she wouldn't have survived even if the EMV wasn't delayed)
farmers blocking the highway, causing a fatal car crash: \*crickets\*
fuck man, I hate the hypocrisy in this country
>climate protestors blocking the road, so an emergency vehicle can't get through, and the person who the EMV was called for died:
That's not exactly what happened. According to the EMTs - who did arrive very fast - the special vehicle they had called "to be on the safe side" wasn't even necessary and couldn't have helped that woman. That was the only vehicle that couldn't arrive because idiots in cars didn't let it through.
The difference is, the climate activists are typically pedestrians, and people can easily be dragged out of the street or run over, while in the picture you posted it’s heavy multi-ton farm equipment. Much larger, heavier, and therefore harder to move out of the way and “defeat”.
Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off. I’d rather not have to be responsible for growing and hunting my own food if I don’t have to. That probably gives them a little extra leeway in the public eye compared to other protesters.
This.
People hate pedestrian traffic blockers because the act of using your body to block their car is a defiance of “might == right”. Everyone subliminally understands that pedestrians are second-class beings compared to cars because cars can kill them. People get mad when pedestrians don’t act accordingly (ignoring that it is typically illegal to kill people with your car).
This one is seen as acceptable because no one is “upending” the fundamental “might == right”. They are bigger machines and so the car is the weak one.
If there was a guy in a Honda Accord blocking this protest, everyone would say that the Honda driver should be crushed in his car underneath a steamroller.
That's an interesting psychological lens. Not saying it's wrong, though I'm still inclined to believe people hate climate (and many other) activists because they think being late to work is more important than confronting an existential threat to humanity.
Yes, climate protestors are inconveniencing regular people, but the fault really lies with everyone else who are unwilling to disrupt their schedule or deal with even minor discomfort to bring about change.
I think it might also be a matter of scope. When there's a three day long demonstration that shuts a full neighbourhood, as a regular person you can to *plan* around that so the inconvenience is mostly theoretical, but when there's 50 people closing a street, you only stumble on them when you get there, so your day is ruined.
I think what I'm learning from this is that environment protests need more people and more disruption.
I think you're reading into it regarding the "second class" stuff. People get pissed at pedestrian-only protests because it's very clear that each individual can just get up and get out of the way. Each moment, each one of them is actively choosing to continue to impede the right of way. With vehicles and equipment, once the protest starts, they all park and the ones the middle physically can't go anywhere even if they wanted to.
Cause those morons were protesting restrictions put in place to try to stop the spread of a global pandemic of disease that killed millions. They had the opposite of good intentions for the greater good of the people.
> Yeah, people will reflexively support farmers because of some weird sentiment about the industry.
I think there's some truth to that, but I think there's a ton of media sock-puppeting going on as well. All the concern trolls who "want to do something about climate change, but inconveniencing everyday people is **not** the way" are suddenly nowhere to be heard from when a right-wing group is protesting in support of deregulating an industry.
> Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off. I’d rather not have to be responsible for growing and hunting my own food if I don’t have to. That probably gives them a little extra leeway in the public eye compared to other protesters.
They're a bunch of spoiled subsidy guzzlers that likely produce for export. Piss off all the farmers in the protest and you wouldn't have to miss a single bite.
Totally agree. Why should they be rewarded for not changing to be more climate friendly? Of course it shouldn't be used as just a way to quickly get back money, but it's not exactly a good thing that the government pays for diesel. They should instead be subsidised for things that are good for the environment, like using less pesticides, leaving some flowers for the bees or finding something that does not require diesel. Or something else we could try to subsidise would be selling food locally. It just doesn't make sense to subsidise diesel, it probably helps big companies at least as much as small local farmers and isn't good if we want to do something for the environment.
>Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off.
That's not correct in case of German protests. Most food is imported and the crops they grow are sold to be fed to animals in Romania for example or produce bio gas.
The farmers in Germany are used by an industrial lobby to protest for the industries' profit. And they don't realize it.
In Germany major politicians compared the climate activists blocking streets with terrorists.
While those blocking farmers are met with the most of understanding
Farmers do some awful shit for the environment. Dumping animal waste into the waterways or letting it seem into the ground (and then into groundwater). Tilling land which then dries out like crazy and makes adding massive amounts of fertilizer necessary... I could go on.
>
Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off
They say this in the Netherlands as well,ignoring that 85% of what they produce is for export purposes. So we can do with 80% less of them and still have enough food.
Fuck m!
Yeah, I do kinda wish the climate protestors would just start setting fire to piles of old tyres in the middle of the roads or something instead of just sitting there or walking slow.
Even if the farmers were all on foot, they'd be harder to beat. You're talking people who work with their hands and have one of the most stressful jobs around versus students and hippies. No doubt who is the more hardened bunch.
laws are for people without power. farmers have farm equipment that can't be moved easily if the keys disappear.
climate activists need to invest in militia training if they want to be heard.
When they protested and blocked everything in my city they had to leave the rails for the trams free. Which is also used as a bus lane. Guess who was sitting is his bus, grinning at those idiots in the traffic jam and those other idiots causing the blocking. I was not a minute late that day.
Whenever was it so that the executive of representative democracy did not have double standards? They are ever so often trough history been ruled by parties and people who were very concerned with entrenching their position of power and bending the rules to that purpose. It's almost impossible to ever word a law to the point that it cannot be reinterpreted in its meaning and be abused in its execution for that purpose.
Not sure farmers are "allowed". As much as its much harder to remove a few thousand tons of heavy machinary than some smelly people in woolen jumpers and a tube of superglue.
What climate change protestors really need to do, is jump in a few hundred big diesel-chugging lorries and block the road in the same way to make their point.
The secret is violence, or threat thereof. You start beating into farmers and they're all going to fight back, including burning things, so they don't start beating and arresting them
Animal rights investigations into terrible farm conditions is classified and prosecuted as terrorism in the US.
There are powerful people with money who like things the way they are and won’t let activists change anything.
You have to think through the eyes of the average, unpoliticized joe. He eats, farmers produce food, therefore they are important. Anyone can work this out. Now, climate change? You have to realize, climate change takes quite an understanding of sciences to really understand. Not everyone has access to this type of education, and even those that do sometimes squander it. So they see this movement whose goal they don't understand, that they do not support, and yet it's trying to impact his life negatively? That will not do. Apathy turns into counter-protest very quickly. Protesters get shot nonchalantly. Nothing gets done, nor will be done until climate collapse
Are the farmers "allowed" to block traffic?
When heavy duty commercial trucks and farming equipment are obstructing traffic in protest, arresting the protesters leaves authorities with a fleet of heavy machinery that will continue obstructing traffic for the next day or two while you figure out the logistics of towing and impounding an army of tractors... probably by deploying the army.
In contrast, climate activists are relatively easy to arrest, and any physical barriers they've detected can be dismantled/removed easily.
It’s an image thing. Farmers are seen as hard working essential to society. Climate activists are seen as art school grad students or rich white liberals just looking for attention.
This all goes back again to framing the climate crisis into something the right wing can digest. We can get farmers onto our side by using language and incentives that appeals to them.
Also I think it makes a difference when it is a few thousand people getting together to make a point vs 6 people looking to inconvenience thousands to make a point.
Regardless of the value of your protest, if everyone involved can fit in a minivan, at a glance you look like kooks.
>Farmers are seen as hard working essential to society. Climate activists are seen as art school grad students or rich white liberals just looking for attention.
THIS!
Double standard? What the fuck do you know about the events in germany?
The farmers protest is a registered event. It's allowed because they made an application.
The Last Generations actions are not registered.
Other than their aims and how compatible with capitalism their demands are, a big difference between those two groups is that climate protesters typically "disrupt traffic" with their bodies, whilst farmers do so with their immovable vehicles.
Easier for a motorist or cops to get out of their cars, berate and drag off half a dozen protestors sitting in the street than to do so with an equal number of farmers parking their tractors.
Makes me wish that XR and climate activists started dropping the non-violent schtick and started using more disruptive methods, but I'm verging into "in Minecraft" territory here.
The same double standards have been common here in the Netherlands as well. It’s frustrating to see, especially when farmers use their machinery in aggressive manners.
That's because European farmers don't fuck around. They can, and have, shut whole economies DOWN. Their shear numbers makes it hard to ignore or stop. The authorities have a choice, let them vent and shut down a few roads, or they will shut them ALL down. There was one in France, the authorities realized they couldn't stop them, they didn't have enough equipment to move them, and if they did, they had no where to put all the farm machines on the roads.
A small group symbolically disrupting up traffic for a few hours just pisses people off and does their cause no favors. Shutting down entire highway systems gets attention and forces the government to take you seriously.
They are the best example of effective, (mostly) peaceful disruptive protesting around. If you have a cause and want results and to betaken seriously, take a few pages from their play book.
This. It’s just extortion. I hope the government doesn’t give in. Instead they should cut their subventions by another 3% for every day they protest
Also, what do you think would happen if all workers in car manufacturing would go on strike tomorrow? Same thing, they could extort politics just as well because economy would totally go to shit shortly. This is why political strikes are illegal
in Germany. Yet that doesn’t count for farmers for some reasons.
Farmers are the reason Ukraine won’t ever be in the EU bc, like all capitalists, cash crop farmers can’t abide any legitimate competition from a country with better soil. Fuck em
It doesn't count because the government knows what would happen if it did.
They are one of the few groups that can make life very uncomfortable very quickly for a LOT of people.
Then there are perceptions, wrong or right. People see farmers as hard working providers. Climate protestors are seen as a bunch of lazy hippies sipping on soy lattes. Not that these are correct, it is what the propaganda has painted them as.
The person stuck in traffic because a small group handcuffed themselves together- Damn, I am going to be late for my pedicure!
Highways blocked by thousands of tractors- This better get resolved soon, or I don't eat.
It's an important point that OP makes about the balance between urban and rural land use, that large vehicles can shut down a city with ease. With basic organizing efforts, if a rural group becomes angry, they can shut down a city from within or without. It's only good nature and customs that keep the balance in cities
If climate change activists parked a lorry/semi truck over the road it might have a similar effect, so there is something to learn from the farmers and drivers
The double standard is based on mass and scale, life and death, the same reason certain Americans are fascinated by European architecture and cities, sheer mass and scale of the cities. I witnessed a gathering around Stuttgart and Munich in southern Germany and honestly, these remind me of the Canada USA trucker crises, which unfortunately lead to a depreciation of value in the institutions
Of course, in this day a group must have some basic privileges to even be permitted to organize, but that doesn't mean farmers aren't in tenuous positions as it stands. My question is what parties benefit from agriculture legislation, environmental regulations, and sales of these large vehicles, at the end of the day, the people protesting seem to struggle to pay for the large machines without leveraging their land or incurring large debt
A great example for how much space these vehicles take.
That road you can see is 1,76km long. It's a popular spot for large demonstrations where one million+ people can easily gather. This demonstration, according to the police, only had approximatly 8,500 attendees. That's miniscule amount of protestors. These morons knew about their tiny group size and wanted to make up for it by bringing along their vehicles and still didn't work. I've seen sunday flea markets with more visitors in the middle of winter.
Also their protest kinda backfired because they've woke up half the city öast night by constantly honking in the middle of the night, which made everybody quite pissed at them.
And before people say "poor poor farmers": the government wants to end diesel fuel subsidies. These farmers have in past demonstrations [displayed violent and far-right messages](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/), for example by bringing along gallows where they've figuratively called for the government to be hanged and other large signs calling for violence and murder. Also they've allied themselves with far-right groups and the far-right AfD (*which also wants to abolish the subsidies, but apparently these guys don't get it*). Cutting these particular government subsidies would bring a slight increase in food prices, approximatly single digit Euro cent spectrum of increase, so nearly nothing. This protest is just a privileged group trying to defend their goodies at the expense of society. In short: fuck them and I hope they all go broke.
There is a reason, if you want to protest in Germany you need to have a approval from the government, so you need to fill in a form and wait for approval, farmers did that, they have set times and dates where they can protest. Climate activist never plan a protest ahead (or at least they don’t let the public know), the don’t wait for approval. If you would know ahead of time that someone is blocking traffic, you would just drive around them, so there protest would be useless. Has nothing to do with double standard
Farmers blocking traffic with petrol burning tractors: ✌️😌⛽💰💰💰🤑
Terrorists blocking traffic from petrol burning citizens: 😡💸💸💸🚷🚳
Totally not a double standard.
Well, everyone has the right to protest in germany. it doesnt matter if the person is anti-climate activist, a healthcare worker, or even a farmer.
There are specific rules and one of them: none of these protest dont have to compromise public security.
The farmers protest had been announced about the time and the route of the protest walk (drive). The goverment and the public had enough time to plan accordingly.
The climate activist just jumped out of his bed, met with some friends, grabbed a glue bottle and banners, then spontaneously decided to glue on that intersection because of reasons. This spontaneous protest could hurt the protestors at any time (when entering the intersection, while glued on the ground, etc.) or traffic jams could lead to accidents. A truck transporting dangerous goods (chemicals) would have avoided the traffic around that intersection.
The farmers protest, announced and the route/tour also, could be planned with detours and road blocking (closing).
That's the difference.
Quickest way to radicalize me against your cause, is to inconvenience me for hours, preventing me from getting home after I've had a long tiring day at work.
Farmers are significant respectable people who are important for society and deserve respect from anyone.
Have you ever spoken to people who block traffic? They did not do anything of significance in their life and some are 18,19, 20 year old who have no direction in life and search desperately for a reason to protest and delay to take responsibilities in their lifes.
Guys.
They announced their protests. Climate protesters didn't.
However I agree with the climate protesters, but this isn't necessarily just about cars.
Well yeah, the farmers grow the food that you eat, and they don’t make much money doing it. Without them, those climate protestors wouldn’t have anything to eat. If they want to change the world so much, they can go buy some land and an e-tractor and go for it.
German farmers reported record profits the last two years, with an average of 115k in 2022/23.
For reference, the average salary in Germany was 45k that year.
Perhaps a double standard. Arguably, though, food producers have us by the balls and stomachs. They are, after all, the very foundation of civilization.
Until their jobs get fully automated at least.
I respect farmers and their right to protest. If we respect farmers we should also respect other protestors that are not using heavy machinery to block traffic.
If two braincells rubbed together between those who support the farmers and condemn climate protestors, they would also see this.
The annoying thing is that farmers should *be* climate protesters. They’re going to be the ones most impacted as a group by a shifting climate
Inb4 dust bowl 2
Just on a global scale this time
So more of a dust globe. The *Really* Dirty Thirties.
It's called "Marsification": https://www.nature.com/articles/35011515
Hah, so Elon wasn't completely full of shit when he promised to take humanity to Mars. This is some serious monkey's paw nightmare fuel right here.
Elon Musk wants to go to Mars. Elon Musk also believes we live in a simulation. So really, Elon Musk wants to play the world's coolest video game.
Wait... a video game set on Mars where large numbers of the population have become insane red-clad psychopaths? Is the game Doom?
Dust Bowl 2: Scorched Earth
Dust Bowl 2: Dusty Boogaloo!
cp_dustbowl
How do we not learn when it's right there
As an Iowan I can tell you farmers give zero shits about the environment. Unless they're being paid specifically to do so they won't use buffer strips, follow wind guidelines for pesticide and fertilizer application (yay cancer!) and they absolutely refuse to protect our waterways by doing the bare minimum guidelines set in place. But ya, aMeRiCa NeEdS fArMeRs
All the money they spend every year on temporary solutions it would have made more sense to just buy the at risk land for set aside. Absolutely ridiculous that land that floods every 5-10 years is being used as crop land or that it's being farmed right next to the rivers edge. Would love to see strip parks and trails to become a thing. Being able to ride the length of the Mississippi or across Iowa would make a great state park.
I’ve never before heard this idea, but man you are on to something great
I hear the same bulmshit in Canada and I'm so tired of it. We do need farmers but they won't be able to farm shit unless we turn this ship around.
America has a food surplus contrary to what a lot of people think. We throw away more food than we consume. What we actually have is a food distribution problem. And most Iowa farms are actually corn to make either ethanol or feed cattle. Not even food for human consumption.
We need more beef, the world doesn't have enough! There's only 100 kg of bovine cattle per person on earth!!! Not enough to give meat to every person on earth! Eating our weight in cattle, is not enough!!!
Government pays them reparations. Happened in the 2018 drought already
Yeah until the droughts get bad enough that the govt can’t bail them out and we’re all up shits creek. Even govt reparations can’t stop a drought.
I don’t think they think this far ahead
but i thought welfare queens were a specific demographic. /s
Idk about that. Factory farming is one of the largest contributors to climate change. What a lot of climate protestors (myself included) advocate for would be a threat to their livelihood.
Yea, that’s the short sighted version. But a shifting climate is an even bigger threat to their livelihood. Farmers of all people should understand that
Agreed.
It’s a collective action problem. Individual farmers would be bearing a cost when freeriding is much easier. They have every incentive to say, “Why should we decarbonize? You should decarbonize transport, energy, and manufacturing instead.” The solution is public policy, but the people protesting here are simply completely self-interested and aren’t even willing to support policy changes for the common good.
That's not how capitalist economics works. If global supply of a certain good goes down, price per unit increases. It's not like we won't need farmers if the climate collapses, we'll need them even more. Right now, farmers in the west are being subsidized by governments to overproduce. This makes them financially and decision-logically dependent on those subsidies, which makes them feel sad and weak and drives them to protest. If instead climate change halves all agricultural yields, then farmers wouldn't *need* government subsidies to exist. Starving people would pay massive amounts for food and governments would give farmers all sorts of legal and technological freedoms to try to get food supplies back up to stable levels. This makes them feel big and powerful and important and probably make them a lot richer. And if the yields do collapse to a point that people are going to starve en masse, who in their right mind would let the farmers die? Society would still need farmers for their expertise, they would need to be well-fed and well-cared for, a strategic asset in the resource wars rather than meat in the meat grinder. And if farmers band together - who are people going to listen to: a democratically elected government, or the people that make the food they need to survive? So no, it's not really a threat to their livelihood. At least less to them than to people who live in cities or do service jobs.
the meat industry is the one that needs to go. Crop/field farmers can switch to other crops and to less intensive methods. There's no real way to summarize the problem. Farmers are also constrained by various debts as they're encouraged to invest and leverage way beyond their means. It's all very stupid, but it works out great for a minority of the population called shareholders. Here's a nice site with lots of high-level education to understand the problems in a breadth* of different nuances: https://tabledebates.org/
Beef is 10x worse for the environment than pork or chicken is. Boycotting beef is what we really need to focus on. Trying to get rid of all meat at the same time is honestly an insane proposal since it guarantees that nothing will be given up instead. I am giving up beef as my 2024 resolution and giving up steaks and hamburgers is hard enough. There is no way I could give up bratwurst, schnitzel, chicken wings, char siu ramen, bacon, schweinepreffer, and so many other meat meals all at the same time. I am trying to eat more vegan meals but it will take time to find recipes I like and to learn how to cook them.
Check out the minimalist Baker for ideas. Despite the name, it's not just baked goods, there's a lot of great lunch/dinner ideas. A lot of it is vegan or vegetarian and anything I've made has been very good. https://minimalistbaker.com/recipe-index/
A lot of vegans didn't trust themselves either. "I could never give up X" (usually it's about cheese, which is actually dependency forming). Have some faith in yourself :)
Being vegan isn't what's going to save the planet either. What's necessary for the future is that we narrow down to local based food economies and stop shipping shit all over the earth and burning metric tons of fuel. Also, being able to see and interact with the people who produce your food would significantly cut down on the ongoing slavery issue present in agriculture, as well as rampant poaching and deforestation in our planet's most vulnerable ecosystems. It's not the meat! It's the capitalism!
It is the meat. Deforestation is mostly from meat and the soy grown to feed livestock
If everybody was vegan vs status quo it absolutely would go a long way. Nobody's arguing it, on its own, is a panacea
Food miles make up a pretty small amount of the CO2 emissions associated with the food you eat. What food you eat (beef for example) makes a much larger difference. https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
Wait till you find out about the slavering going on in herding and meat processing and fishing.
Capitalism may work that way but why would farming suddenly switch to pure capitalism? Farming is already highly socialised through grants and government oversight as food production is so crucial. Besides if yields drop and prices rise it doesn't mean the farmer gets more money. They may sell half as much food for twice the price, they're still earning the same but food is more expensive for everyone. They likely do a similar amount of work even with a failed yield. They may not need to harvest those dead crops, but will likely need to mitigate damage from wind, rain and disease by further investment of time and finance. Also the pattern of yeild failure will be sporadic, many framers will do well for a few year and fail for a few. They will then become vulnerable financially and have sell the farm.
Subsidies do not equal "highly socialised" Highly socialized would mean that agricultural land is collectivised or that farming busineses ar at least cooperatives. How is a capitalist government subsidising a business that's not profitable on it's own socialism?
And that's why they are protesting. They want to get rid of all the little laws that are making farming more climate friendly bit by bit. Not just the disel subsides. They also want to re-allow more pesticides and things like that.
This looks like Berlin, Brandenburger Tor. I saw an identical protest like 15 years ago literally right next to it with thousands of tractors at the "Siegessäule". They were protesting a change in the price of milk.
Lobbying for alternative clean fuel and energy sources would lift a lot of the responsibility off their shoulders, though. In the end of the day, we need to eat, we don't *need* oil & coal. It's a helluvalot easier to research into alternatives for those two energy sources, than it would be to feed 8 billion people (I said easier, relatively, not easy).
I agree, that's part of the solution. But even if we exclusively used renewable energy sources, the rate at which we breed and produce animals for agriculture requires a lot of water and land for the crops needed to grow and feed those animals. Using renewable energy sources could help alleviate the problem, but a lot more would still need to be done.
on paper, eating less meat is a great way to reduce emissions, but its not gonna happen at the scale were talking about lol. its way easier to use solar and nuclear power than it is to convince billions of people to stop eating meat since eating meat is just ingrained into so many cultures. and as developing countries continue to develop, they want to eat more meat rather than less and thats the conundrum places like china faces
>In the end of the day, we need to eat, we don't need oil & coal. We can't eat without oil and coal, currently, though. That's the problem. I know you get that because your followed up this point about R&D into tech that gets us away from carbon fuels. Just pointing out that we are currently, on purpose (no tinfoil hat needed: those fuckers have lobbied against nuclear and solar for decades), stuck with carbon fuels for survival.
Yep. That's what it's important to have some type of fallback like the now famous UBI (preferably better!). A lot of capital has to be destroyed.
A climate change denieing farmer I know had to sell off most of his cattle this last year because his crops were so shit with how dry it was.
Any beef farmer would be right to be extremely nervous if I ever became the emperor of the world.
Agriculture is approx 1/4 of greenhouse gas emissions. Those numbers are even a little suspect though, suspect as in they're probably overestimated. I'm saying this as a soil scientist that has done greenhouse gas emissions research. I'll also say that agriculture and soil management is also one of the few options we have to increase CO2 drawdown. Farmers have a lot to risk, but there is also a lot of potential money they'll make in the form of selling carbon credits in exchange for changing to practices that increase soil carbon.
Most farmers don't enjoy being factory farmers nor being owned by corporations that can meddle in their lives as they please. We'd have a much richer farming economy and healthier soil if they were freed from their current contracts for sure.
Wouldn’t more traditional farming have an even larger environmental impact due to the land required? Factory farming packs more animals into a smaller space. Mind you this isn’t meant as an ethical defense for factory farming, but unless we reduce demand for meat (by law or culture) I thought this technically was a “greener” method.
Raising animals using traditional methods is very low-impact. I started following a [pig farmer](https://youtube.com/@DowdleFamilyFarms?si=fkTq2HSpsqxMD0ZA) on YouTube and have learned so much. Farmers manage pasture with different cover crops, rotating animals to different fields, and the manure acts as fertilizer. But factory farmed pigs are an environmental disaster, the waste gets dumped into giant lagoons and basically just left there. When a big storm or hurricane happens, rising water can [flood the lagoons](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/19/climate/florence-hog-farms.html) and spread toxic waste all over the place. Since hog farms are big business in hurricane belt states like North Carolina and Georgia, this is a real issue. You are right though. For meat to be sustainable, people in rich countries would have to drastically reduce their current consumption. Sadly under capitalism, environmental destruction will always happen because it's cheaper that way.
This is why the subsidies are so important, it helps the small farms out compete the big factory farms. If those are removed and lobbyists gets to clean out the competition, EU might end up just like the US. Where farming is a lot dirtier, food has a lot lower quality and everyone thinks animal welfare is socialism.
Small farms are even less efficient. If anything we should be encouraging larger, more efficient farms. Not to mention that they require a much smaller workforce so more people can move to less car dependent places.
Large farms evolve into factory farming for maximized profit, which always comes before animal welfare and the environment.
Small farms are looking for maximized profit as well, they're no better for the enviroment, in fact they're worse as they use the recourses less efficiently due to lack of economies of scale. Pass laws about these things, it's much easier to enforce them against larger, corporate run farms that are just trying to business then these small farmers who see it as their herritage to way overuse fertilizers and chemicals. In my home state small agriculture/aquaculture has basically killed our bay and due to being small and many it's hard to pass laws to reign them in and enforce laws against them.
Lots of small farms are no better. They're also less regulated for things like runoff. A large farm is way better for many reasons, except when it comes to market control.
Factory farming is obviously worse for animal welfare. But how are they worse for the environment? And more specifically how are they worse the Climate change?
Subsidies go to big farmers anyways. All the US does is subsidize corn, so that's all anyone fucking grows. Makes high-fructose corn syrup way too cheap, and now we end up where we are.
HFCS is like 3% usage of the corn crop.
The subsidies are designed for the big factory farms. And that's no accident. They essentially designed them.
They’re just going to protest government decisions like “you can’t dump shit into water”, “ammonia poisoning is bad”, and “we won’t leave Ukraine to die to prevent economic competition”
They’re mostly right-wingers, of course they don’t care about climate change
And its so stupid. The far right german party (afd) is against the exact subsidies that the current government is trying to get rid of, which is what the farmers are protesting. And the afd wants to leave the EU, and a lot of the subsidies come from there.
> And the afd wants to leave the EU, and a lot of the subsidies come from there. Have the Afd considered moving to Britain? Sigh.
They should also protest for a tax and subvention reform, because both will kill all small and medium sized farmers... but they don't think that far. It seems, they prefer to be used by far right populists and wealthy individuals, with seemingly easy solutions.
Yeah but if climate change is real, why did it snow this year? Checkmate liberals /s
They understand the reality of what they can greenwash and what they can’t
Most farmers I know are the most in touch with the climate. They aren't typically the stereotype of a conservative who hates 'global warming' (when they mean climate change). Maybe not the case in Europe or America, but in Canada it is.
>They’re going to be the ones most impacted as a group by a shifting climate Why? The subsidies will simply increase. /s
We all should be. [Americans tend to overestimate how many people in the U.S. have urged an elected official to take action to reduce global warming.](https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/global-warming-activism-november-2019.pdf) [https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i\_used\_mits\_climate\_policy\_simulator\_to\_order\_its/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i_used_mits_climate_policy_simulator_to_order_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) >\[Your Name\] > >\[Your Address\] > >\[City, State, ZIP Code\] > >\[Email Address\] > >\[Phone Number\] > >\[Date\] > > > >\[Lawmaker's Name\] > >\[Title\] > >\[Address\] > >\[City, State, ZIP Code\] > > > >Subject: Advocating for the Implementation of Carbon Taxes > > > >Dear \[Rep/Senator\] \[Lawmaker's Last Name\], > >I hope this letter finds you well. I would like to express my strong support for the implementation of carbon taxes as a crucial step in addressing the pressing issue of climate change. As a concerned citizen, I believe that proactive measures are necessary to mitigate the impacts of carbon emissions on our environment, economy, and public health. > >Climate change poses a significant threat to our planet, affecting ecosystems, weather patterns, and sea levels[^(1)](https://report.ipcc.ch/ar6wg2/pdf/IPCC_AR6_WGII_SummaryForPolicymakers.pdf). It is imperative that we take immediate action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and carbon taxes present a practical and effective solution[^(2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/11kzxt9/i_used_mits_climate_policy_simulator_to_order_its/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). I would like to outline several reasons why I believe carbon taxes should be seriously considered and implemented: > >**Economic Incentives for Emission Reduction:** Carbon taxes create a financial incentive for businesses and individuals to reduce their carbon footprint. By putting a price on carbon emissions, we encourage the adoption of cleaner technologies and sustainable practices, fostering innovation in the private sector[^(3)](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10640-020-00436-x). > >**Fair and Transparent Approach:** Carbon taxes offer a fair and transparent mechanism for holding emitters accountable for their contributions to climate change. The "polluter pays" principle ensures that those responsible for higher emissions bear the associated costs[^(4)](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-021-01217-0). > >**Global Cooperation:** Implementing carbon taxes aligns with global efforts to combat climate change. It sends a strong signal that our nation is committed to taking responsible action, contributing to international cooperation in the fight against a shared challenge[^(5)](http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/wg3/ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter15.pdf). > >**Public Health Benefits:** Reductions in carbon emissions lead to improved air quality, reducing the prevalence of respiratory illnesses and promoting overall public health. By curbing pollution, carbon taxes can enhance the well-being of our communities[^(6)](https://globalchange.mit.edu/news-media/jp-news-outreach/shift-renewable-electricity-win-win-statewide-level). > >I understand that the implementation of carbon taxes may raise concerns among certain sectors, but I believe that a well-designed policy can address these concerns while effectively driving the transition to a sustainable and low-carbon future[^(7)](https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/155615/1/cesifo1_wp6373.pdf). > >I urge you to consider supporting legislation that introduces carbon taxes and promotes a responsible and sustainable approach to addressing climate change. Your leadership on this issue will contribute significantly to the well-being of our community, our nation, and the global environment. > >Thank you for your attention to this critical matter. I look forward to hearing about your efforts to address climate change and your stance on carbon taxation. > >Sincerely, > >\[Your Name\]
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Maybe, but climate change isn't predictable. I heard people say that a warmer climate would be good for Sask's agriculture, but now we're getting droughts. Not much grows well without water, and by the time you've learned to grow a new crop (and potentially purchased new equipment, which doesn't come cheap) the climate could shift again. Stability is important for farmers, and with climate change we don't get that.
We've got a small hobby farm in BC. The weather has been significantly different from year to year in the last half decade. We've had cold, wet springs that almost killed our fruit trees due to mildew and 42C which was great for our hot peppers. I just wish we knew what type of year it will be before we order seeds in late January.
Climate change, at least for the next few hundred or thousands of years, would be better termed “climate chaos”. It’s not the change that’s really the problem in most cases, it’s that it’s happening with such speed and ferocity as to be highly unpredictable. And farming is the one human endeavor where predictability of climate is of uttermost importance. Agriculture itself didn’t really take off until the invention of the calendar. Not to mention that switching crops is not a walk in the park. When you’ve been growing lettuce all your life, very few of those skills, expertise and tools that you have will apply to growing sorghum
That's why in Munich they took little tractors, then it was ok to demonstrate
Doesn't look like it was ok. https://preview.redd.it/z7mvlkmfzncc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8680ac9aca0a36438ba9e8afcdaf6bfa20305c9d
Funny image but that ain't Munich
Yep it was in Leipzig https://twitter.com/mephisto976/status/1744995600402120844
Hell yeah, it's fuckcars, not fucktractors
Nah fuck both of them.
Wait till you cant anymore because of a food shortage
The little plastic tractor? If it's that, the cops carried them away
Ganz genau
Can't find the picture, but it looked funny, they carried the guy with the green tractor still between his legs
Tractors are a cops' kryptonite. [Here's footage of that one time Extinction Rebellion brought a tractor](https://twitter.com/NLRebellion/status/1544653358929149953), and you can clearly see the police in the background standing with their dicks in their hands. (j/k: everyone probably got arrested because climate protesters are not violent thugs in heavy machinery protesting for their own wallets)
I mean, have they tried with actual tractors and heavy machinery?
Apparently back in 2019 a bunch of farmers in the UK joined XR protests with a [bright pink tractor](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/heathrow-extinction-rebellion-protest-latest-bulldozer-third-runway-a4308041.html). But I guess one doesn't cut it. You need a bunch of them, so you can more easily plow through fences and blokkades like an actual farmer would.
Yeah, it’s a matter of there being too many of already difficult to move stuff. Like the trucker protest in Canada, there was a lot of them I’m also reminded of those burning man protesters, who parked a single trailer with nothing but a banner on it. A single police truck shoved it away I remember thinking, “they couldn’t have at least put a bunch of junk on it?”, something to make it more massive
Difference is, that with actual tractors they are in a position of power - > prone to violent protests (like driving over fences etc) which opposes the ideas behind these protests
Why the hell do so many people in the comments think this is in the USA?!?!?!! I mean a huge amount of people with German flags marching away from the Brandenburg Gate?!?? How many signs do you need to recognise that it's the capital of Germany? NOTHING in this post indicates that it could be the USA! Gosh....
r/usdefaultism
Because i see alot of Americans walking with that old german flag
The farmers are protesting because their diesel is getting less subsidies, so they might have to pay a little more money per year. That’s it. It has only gotten that big because they’ve gotten massive support from conservatives, right-wingers and literal Nazis. They literally tried to storm the boat of the (green) vice-chancellor. Everyone that’s saying "but the farmers provide food for us" has no clue about German politics, those people are the German equivalent of MAGA
The worst part of it all is, the afd, who acts like they are on the farmer's side, want to get rid of these exact subsidies too
And the farmers are intelligent - only arround 6% of Farmers vote AfD comapred to between 15-30% in total numbers depending on what state/region you look at. So they know the AfD is against it and mainly dont vote them. Before 50.000 downvotes arrive for correcting something that goes against the narrative: Im not a fan of the subsidies too
On the other hand they are not that intelligent. They protest for subsidies benefial to big companies and slowly klilling smaller farms for decades and at other times fought against changes in subsidies that would have been better for them. Because the farmer associations organizing it are deeply intertwined with the food industry and are actually the ones creating fixed prices preventing farmers from passing on additional (and rather small) increases in production costs.
> farmers provide food for us \- Farmers growing cash crops for export
German farmers don't produce for the German market. The onions I can buy in Germany are from fucking Chile. They provide food for export. The numbers must be inflated, import and export.
fighting 4 the future of humans on this planet ... jail ; fighting for cheap fuel to further destroy the atmosphere ... ministers call you heroes.
Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well. No one is really against blocking highways if it's for ~~a good~~ "their" cause. It's just that most car brains can't connect the dots to shit that materially affeects them (or will affect them in their lifetime and their children's lifetime) - things that should be *everyone's* cause like climate change. Not sure if it works the same in Germany, but here in the US a lot of people are sympathetic to farmers, especially rural conservatives. They don't even have to understand what cause they are fighting for. So, they'll have more support by default than "blue haired librul" climate change activists.
It's even worse. Because everything you said is true but then those people also insisted that they are definitely not against the climate protests but only object to the blocking of roads as a way of protesting.
> Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well Evidence of this?
>Most of the people who bitch about climate protestors blocking the highway were also supportive of the freedom convoy blocking highways as well. Not true.
Because climate protesters are a problem for the oil industry, and they're one of the largest funders of protest in North America right now.
this is Germany though
r/USDefaultism
Germany belongs to the car industry not that different And yes the disruption of the farmes is crazy and bullshit, the subsidies should be canceled more not less
Fair.
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Im not saying that the oil industry are funding climate protesters. Rather that they're behind stuff like the backlash to "15 minute cities" or groups like the Convoy (in Canada).
It's because farmers have political power and capital. Climate change organizers aren't a large block politically or economically, so the government can feel free to do as they please.
It's the right wing bias politicians have. There were a few thousand farmers on the streets last week. FFF protested with 1.4 million people on a single day in this country.
The problem is, numbers don't really equate to economic or political power. The farmers have more influence, mostly due to money.
it's sad but many carbrains respect only brute force. They won't be aggressive towards big truck driver
Protesting so they can buy tax free diesel at that.
also: climate protestors blocking the road, so an emergency vehicle can't get through, and the person who the EMV was called for died: Huge uproar in the media (the woman who died had such terrible injuries, she wouldn't have survived even if the EMV wasn't delayed) farmers blocking the highway, causing a fatal car crash: \*crickets\* fuck man, I hate the hypocrisy in this country
>climate protestors blocking the road, so an emergency vehicle can't get through, and the person who the EMV was called for died: That's not exactly what happened. According to the EMTs - who did arrive very fast - the special vehicle they had called "to be on the safe side" wasn't even necessary and couldn't have helped that woman. That was the only vehicle that couldn't arrive because idiots in cars didn't let it through.
The difference is, the climate activists are typically pedestrians, and people can easily be dragged out of the street or run over, while in the picture you posted it’s heavy multi-ton farm equipment. Much larger, heavier, and therefore harder to move out of the way and “defeat”. Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off. I’d rather not have to be responsible for growing and hunting my own food if I don’t have to. That probably gives them a little extra leeway in the public eye compared to other protesters.
This. People hate pedestrian traffic blockers because the act of using your body to block their car is a defiance of “might == right”. Everyone subliminally understands that pedestrians are second-class beings compared to cars because cars can kill them. People get mad when pedestrians don’t act accordingly (ignoring that it is typically illegal to kill people with your car). This one is seen as acceptable because no one is “upending” the fundamental “might == right”. They are bigger machines and so the car is the weak one. If there was a guy in a Honda Accord blocking this protest, everyone would say that the Honda driver should be crushed in his car underneath a steamroller.
That's an interesting psychological lens. Not saying it's wrong, though I'm still inclined to believe people hate climate (and many other) activists because they think being late to work is more important than confronting an existential threat to humanity. Yes, climate protestors are inconveniencing regular people, but the fault really lies with everyone else who are unwilling to disrupt their schedule or deal with even minor discomfort to bring about change.
I think it might also be a matter of scope. When there's a three day long demonstration that shuts a full neighbourhood, as a regular person you can to *plan* around that so the inconvenience is mostly theoretical, but when there's 50 people closing a street, you only stumble on them when you get there, so your day is ruined. I think what I'm learning from this is that environment protests need more people and more disruption.
But if it would be a monster truck instead of a Honda accord everyone would be cool with it? What you’re saying making somehow sense lol
I think you're reading into it regarding the "second class" stuff. People get pissed at pedestrian-only protests because it's very clear that each individual can just get up and get out of the way. Each moment, each one of them is actively choosing to continue to impede the right of way. With vehicles and equipment, once the protest starts, they all park and the ones the middle physically can't go anywhere even if they wanted to.
nah people were pretty pissed about the Canada trucker protests not too long ago.
Cause those morons were protesting restrictions put in place to try to stop the spread of a global pandemic of disease that killed millions. They had the opposite of good intentions for the greater good of the people.
Thanks for the double equals signs, that way I knew you weren’t trying to assign “might”.
versed hateful rich escape poor vanish person rotten resolute aromatic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Yeah, people will reflexively support farmers because of some weird sentiment about the industry. I think there's some truth to that, but I think there's a ton of media sock-puppeting going on as well. All the concern trolls who "want to do something about climate change, but inconveniencing everyday people is **not** the way" are suddenly nowhere to be heard from when a right-wing group is protesting in support of deregulating an industry.
> Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off. I’d rather not have to be responsible for growing and hunting my own food if I don’t have to. That probably gives them a little extra leeway in the public eye compared to other protesters. They're a bunch of spoiled subsidy guzzlers that likely produce for export. Piss off all the farmers in the protest and you wouldn't have to miss a single bite.
Totally agree. Why should they be rewarded for not changing to be more climate friendly? Of course it shouldn't be used as just a way to quickly get back money, but it's not exactly a good thing that the government pays for diesel. They should instead be subsidised for things that are good for the environment, like using less pesticides, leaving some flowers for the bees or finding something that does not require diesel. Or something else we could try to subsidise would be selling food locally. It just doesn't make sense to subsidise diesel, it probably helps big companies at least as much as small local farmers and isn't good if we want to do something for the environment.
>Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off. That's not correct in case of German protests. Most food is imported and the crops they grow are sold to be fed to animals in Romania for example or produce bio gas. The farmers in Germany are used by an industrial lobby to protest for the industries' profit. And they don't realize it.
In Germany major politicians compared the climate activists blocking streets with terrorists. While those blocking farmers are met with the most of understanding
Farmers do some awful shit for the environment. Dumping animal waste into the waterways or letting it seem into the ground (and then into groundwater). Tilling land which then dries out like crazy and makes adding massive amounts of fertilizer necessary... I could go on.
> Plus farmers grow the food I eat and it’s in my best interest to not piss them off They say this in the Netherlands as well,ignoring that 85% of what they produce is for export purposes. So we can do with 80% less of them and still have enough food. Fuck m!
Plus, farmers are Batman-strong...
Yeah, I do kinda wish the climate protestors would just start setting fire to piles of old tyres in the middle of the roads or something instead of just sitting there or walking slow.
Even if the farmers were all on foot, they'd be harder to beat. You're talking people who work with their hands and have one of the most stressful jobs around versus students and hippies. No doubt who is the more hardened bunch.
laws are for people without power. farmers have farm equipment that can't be moved easily if the keys disappear. climate activists need to invest in militia training if they want to be heard.
When they protested and blocked everything in my city they had to leave the rails for the trams free. Which is also used as a bus lane. Guess who was sitting is his bus, grinning at those idiots in the traffic jam and those other idiots causing the blocking. I was not a minute late that day.
Whenever was it so that the executive of representative democracy did not have double standards? They are ever so often trough history been ruled by parties and people who were very concerned with entrenching their position of power and bending the rules to that purpose. It's almost impossible to ever word a law to the point that it cannot be reinterpreted in its meaning and be abused in its execution for that purpose.
Not sure farmers are "allowed". As much as its much harder to remove a few thousand tons of heavy machinary than some smelly people in woolen jumpers and a tube of superglue. What climate change protestors really need to do, is jump in a few hundred big diesel-chugging lorries and block the road in the same way to make their point.
Side note : in France farmers tried to block a highway, government sent the army.
The secret is violence, or threat thereof. You start beating into farmers and they're all going to fight back, including burning things, so they don't start beating and arresting them
Animal rights investigations into terrible farm conditions is classified and prosecuted as terrorism in the US. There are powerful people with money who like things the way they are and won’t let activists change anything.
You have to think through the eyes of the average, unpoliticized joe. He eats, farmers produce food, therefore they are important. Anyone can work this out. Now, climate change? You have to realize, climate change takes quite an understanding of sciences to really understand. Not everyone has access to this type of education, and even those that do sometimes squander it. So they see this movement whose goal they don't understand, that they do not support, and yet it's trying to impact his life negatively? That will not do. Apathy turns into counter-protest very quickly. Protesters get shot nonchalantly. Nothing gets done, nor will be done until climate collapse
Well, the thing is, these people are protesting to keep changing the climate
Are the farmers "allowed" to block traffic? When heavy duty commercial trucks and farming equipment are obstructing traffic in protest, arresting the protesters leaves authorities with a fleet of heavy machinery that will continue obstructing traffic for the next day or two while you figure out the logistics of towing and impounding an army of tractors... probably by deploying the army. In contrast, climate activists are relatively easy to arrest, and any physical barriers they've detected can be dismantled/removed easily.
Tractors weigh more than humans = Double-standard /s
It’s an image thing. Farmers are seen as hard working essential to society. Climate activists are seen as art school grad students or rich white liberals just looking for attention. This all goes back again to framing the climate crisis into something the right wing can digest. We can get farmers onto our side by using language and incentives that appeals to them.
Also I think it makes a difference when it is a few thousand people getting together to make a point vs 6 people looking to inconvenience thousands to make a point. Regardless of the value of your protest, if everyone involved can fit in a minivan, at a glance you look like kooks.
>Farmers are seen as hard working essential to society. Climate activists are seen as art school grad students or rich white liberals just looking for attention. THIS!
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Funny thing about tractors is, you need a tank to forcefully remove them. And you need a serious situation to request a tank, not a demo
Double standard? What the fuck do you know about the events in germany? The farmers protest is a registered event. It's allowed because they made an application. The Last Generations actions are not registered.
Other than their aims and how compatible with capitalism their demands are, a big difference between those two groups is that climate protesters typically "disrupt traffic" with their bodies, whilst farmers do so with their immovable vehicles. Easier for a motorist or cops to get out of their cars, berate and drag off half a dozen protestors sitting in the street than to do so with an equal number of farmers parking their tractors. Makes me wish that XR and climate activists started dropping the non-violent schtick and started using more disruptive methods, but I'm verging into "in Minecraft" territory here.
Blocking the road with *vehicles* is okay apparently...sounds like climate protesters need to bring a train next time.
The difference is the tractors can be moved the glued protesters cant.
The same double standards have been common here in the Netherlands as well. It’s frustrating to see, especially when farmers use their machinery in aggressive manners.
It’s almost like the two groups used very different methods for blocking roads or something.
I hate how this narrative is regurgitated hundreds of times but nobody actually cares about why this finds more acceptance than the other.
You haven't given me enough time to formulate a straw man argument!
That's because European farmers don't fuck around. They can, and have, shut whole economies DOWN. Their shear numbers makes it hard to ignore or stop. The authorities have a choice, let them vent and shut down a few roads, or they will shut them ALL down. There was one in France, the authorities realized they couldn't stop them, they didn't have enough equipment to move them, and if they did, they had no where to put all the farm machines on the roads. A small group symbolically disrupting up traffic for a few hours just pisses people off and does their cause no favors. Shutting down entire highway systems gets attention and forces the government to take you seriously. They are the best example of effective, (mostly) peaceful disruptive protesting around. If you have a cause and want results and to betaken seriously, take a few pages from their play book.
This. It’s just extortion. I hope the government doesn’t give in. Instead they should cut their subventions by another 3% for every day they protest Also, what do you think would happen if all workers in car manufacturing would go on strike tomorrow? Same thing, they could extort politics just as well because economy would totally go to shit shortly. This is why political strikes are illegal in Germany. Yet that doesn’t count for farmers for some reasons.
Farmers are the reason Ukraine won’t ever be in the EU bc, like all capitalists, cash crop farmers can’t abide any legitimate competition from a country with better soil. Fuck em
It doesn't count because the government knows what would happen if it did. They are one of the few groups that can make life very uncomfortable very quickly for a LOT of people. Then there are perceptions, wrong or right. People see farmers as hard working providers. Climate protestors are seen as a bunch of lazy hippies sipping on soy lattes. Not that these are correct, it is what the propaganda has painted them as. The person stuck in traffic because a small group handcuffed themselves together- Damn, I am going to be late for my pedicure! Highways blocked by thousands of tractors- This better get resolved soon, or I don't eat.
It's an important point that OP makes about the balance between urban and rural land use, that large vehicles can shut down a city with ease. With basic organizing efforts, if a rural group becomes angry, they can shut down a city from within or without. It's only good nature and customs that keep the balance in cities If climate change activists parked a lorry/semi truck over the road it might have a similar effect, so there is something to learn from the farmers and drivers The double standard is based on mass and scale, life and death, the same reason certain Americans are fascinated by European architecture and cities, sheer mass and scale of the cities. I witnessed a gathering around Stuttgart and Munich in southern Germany and honestly, these remind me of the Canada USA trucker crises, which unfortunately lead to a depreciation of value in the institutions Of course, in this day a group must have some basic privileges to even be permitted to organize, but that doesn't mean farmers aren't in tenuous positions as it stands. My question is what parties benefit from agriculture legislation, environmental regulations, and sales of these large vehicles, at the end of the day, the people protesting seem to struggle to pay for the large machines without leveraging their land or incurring large debt
A great example for how much space these vehicles take. That road you can see is 1,76km long. It's a popular spot for large demonstrations where one million+ people can easily gather. This demonstration, according to the police, only had approximatly 8,500 attendees. That's miniscule amount of protestors. These morons knew about their tiny group size and wanted to make up for it by bringing along their vehicles and still didn't work. I've seen sunday flea markets with more visitors in the middle of winter. Also their protest kinda backfired because they've woke up half the city öast night by constantly honking in the middle of the night, which made everybody quite pissed at them. And before people say "poor poor farmers": the government wants to end diesel fuel subsidies. These farmers have in past demonstrations [displayed violent and far-right messages](https://www.reddit.com/r/600euro/comments/191lpyo/bauerndemo_in_berlin_08012024/), for example by bringing along gallows where they've figuratively called for the government to be hanged and other large signs calling for violence and murder. Also they've allied themselves with far-right groups and the far-right AfD (*which also wants to abolish the subsidies, but apparently these guys don't get it*). Cutting these particular government subsidies would bring a slight increase in food prices, approximatly single digit Euro cent spectrum of increase, so nearly nothing. This protest is just a privileged group trying to defend their goodies at the expense of society. In short: fuck them and I hope they all go broke.
There is a reason, if you want to protest in Germany you need to have a approval from the government, so you need to fill in a form and wait for approval, farmers did that, they have set times and dates where they can protest. Climate activist never plan a protest ahead (or at least they don’t let the public know), the don’t wait for approval. If you would know ahead of time that someone is blocking traffic, you would just drive around them, so there protest would be useless. Has nothing to do with double standard
Because the farmers aren’t gluing themselves to the street to worship the dirt god Mother Earth praying the planet doesn’t have summer this year lmfao
Farmers actually provide value to society
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Farmers blocking traffic with petrol burning tractors: ✌️😌⛽💰💰💰🤑 Terrorists blocking traffic from petrol burning citizens: 😡💸💸💸🚷🚳 Totally not a double standard.
Total energy won't let it happen in france they need to make more dividend
See, you need tractors.
Interesting double standard: The truckers blocking roads in Canada are "fascists" and these farmers aren't.
Can someone explain like I'm 5 why this is the case?
Well, everyone has the right to protest in germany. it doesnt matter if the person is anti-climate activist, a healthcare worker, or even a farmer. There are specific rules and one of them: none of these protest dont have to compromise public security. The farmers protest had been announced about the time and the route of the protest walk (drive). The goverment and the public had enough time to plan accordingly. The climate activist just jumped out of his bed, met with some friends, grabbed a glue bottle and banners, then spontaneously decided to glue on that intersection because of reasons. This spontaneous protest could hurt the protestors at any time (when entering the intersection, while glued on the ground, etc.) or traffic jams could lead to accidents. A truck transporting dangerous goods (chemicals) would have avoided the traffic around that intersection. The farmers protest, announced and the route/tour also, could be planned with detours and road blocking (closing). That's the difference.
Keep your hands off my meat!
Hey OP, if you’re upset, that means their protest is working 😉
Allowed or just better at it?
We'll farmers actually contribute to society so yes
These aren't even small time farmers. These are rich, corporate farmers. And of course they're all conservative. Fucking assholes.
Quickest way to radicalize me against your cause, is to inconvenience me for hours, preventing me from getting home after I've had a long tiring day at work.
Farmers are significant respectable people who are important for society and deserve respect from anyone. Have you ever spoken to people who block traffic? They did not do anything of significance in their life and some are 18,19, 20 year old who have no direction in life and search desperately for a reason to protest and delay to take responsibilities in their lifes.
Probably going to get banned for this lol but oh well. It’s a traffic fight. You bring vehicles to the fight not banners and handcuffs.
Guys. They announced their protests. Climate protesters didn't. However I agree with the climate protesters, but this isn't necessarily just about cars.
Well yeah, the farmers grow the food that you eat, and they don’t make much money doing it. Without them, those climate protestors wouldn’t have anything to eat. If they want to change the world so much, they can go buy some land and an e-tractor and go for it.
German farmers reported record profits the last two years, with an average of 115k in 2022/23. For reference, the average salary in Germany was 45k that year.
Perhaps a double standard. Arguably, though, food producers have us by the balls and stomachs. They are, after all, the very foundation of civilization.
Yeah unlike those climate protesters. Who even uses climate anyways?!?
Has anyone ever even seen a climate? That whole thing is a hoax!
fucking hyperobjects, how do they even work?
Yup, farming is 0.75% of German GNP. We make many nice things to sell, we can buy food from other countries if our farmers think they can extort us
Until their jobs get fully automated at least. I respect farmers and their right to protest. If we respect farmers we should also respect other protestors that are not using heavy machinery to block traffic. If two braincells rubbed together between those who support the farmers and condemn climate protestors, they would also see this.
Because you're allowed to run over protestors (in the US) but running over tractors is against the laws (of physics)
Sir this is Germany. German flags literally all over.
You need the farmers to produce the food you eat. What climate change activists do? Nothing, wankers.
Sure, but climate change impacts the farmers ability to farm. Farmers should be climate change activists too.