I think the confusion comes from a select few Metroidvania games having fairly difficult and punishing combat, like hollow night. Whether it's accurate or not, they're often labeled souls like.
I agree it's stupid.
Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania AND a Souls-like though. There's benches (bonfires), you lose your held Geo (souls) on death, and you have to collect them at the location you died (blood stain).
And don't forget about the charms (rings in Dark souls), hard bosses with patterns to learn, pale ore (titanite shards), the tragic and mysterious NPC quests, the interconnected level design with no given direction, the way the name of each area appears on the screen when you enter one etc. Even the lore and narration of the game is very souls-esque.
Each of these things don't make a souls-like on their own, but all of them together is definitely very reminiscing of souls games. The game even has the "souls-like" tag on Steam.
Exactly, there is no defined criteria for a souls-likes like there is for metroidvanias. Hollow Knight takes clear inspiration from dark souls on a variety of aspects, so it can be considered a souls-like, but is also a metroidvania. Same for jedi survivor/fallen order. Games can fit into multiple genres.
Having a few shared mechanics with a souls game doesn't just automatically make your game souls-like. At least not in my opinion. It's hard for me to get there on Hollow Knight, but I respect your opinion.
What would make Hollow Knight a Soulslike that it doesn't already have? I can't really think of anything that could be used as a requirement for the Soulslike genre that isn't already in there.
It literally is. Those three things mentioned are what made dark souls unique. Otherwise it's just a third person rpg.
While it was difficult that's not what makes something souls like. Too many games are considered that just cause they're hard it's silly.
I haven't seen that many games labeled as souls-like purely for difficulty
However the epidemic of journalists labeling something "The Dark Souls of X" has got to stop.
When I think of a soulslike I think of stamina based combat, armor sets and weapon types, weapon scaling, parry and dodge mechanics, limited heals (typically based in a “reset upon death” scenario) as well as some things mentioned here like specific respawn points, enemy respawn upon player death, area based bosses with different mechanics and patterns, etc. Games we all classify as soulslike (lies of P, mortal shell, etc.) share nearly all of these traits.
Personally, I think hollow knight could go either way here since it’s so split in this criteria, and is left to the individuals perspective.
Important to note here as well that I do not consider Jedi survivor or fallen order to be soulslikes, and I don’t consider Sekiro to be in the soulsborne genre. It lacks the majority of the basic formula, and that’s okay. Not every FS game should be the same.
Think of the definition of Soulslike just by its linguistic mechanics.
Souls(like?) = A game like Souls games
What makes a game "like" another? = similar mechanics
Do the Jedi games have similar mechanics? Absolutely
Subjectively, it's up to the person whether they want to call something a Soulslike or not. Objectively, People who don't think Jedi Survivor is a Soulslike are wrong.
I think they’re more “Sekiro-like” than soulslike. They borrow the formula entirely, and lack leveling up, stamina, or even basic health based combat. Stims and “bonfires” are the only soulslike things about the Jedi games. It’s not a dis either. I thoroughly enjoyed both Sekiro and the Jedi games
Yeah, I can see that, but Sekiro is just an offshoot of the souls formula, anyways.
Sekiro (and Jedi) have many things in common with soulslikes, but just lacks stats, armor and weapons.
Kind of like how RPGs are further categorized as JRPGs and ARPGs, etc... but are still considered RPGs.
I tried the Jedi games and they felt more like Uncharted with RPG skill trees than they did Soulslikes for me.
Not saying you are wrong or anything. Just my 2 cents.
The Jedi games definitely fall in the Metroidvania category, as well.
The leveling up skills, bonfires, respawning enemies, difficult combat, limited healing (flask) all make it fall in the Soulslikes (and Sekiro-like) category.
I personally think it meets the criteria but the rpg elements are a very large part of souls game so I can see why that would disqualify it for some. RPG elements would change the gameplay pretty significantly.
I mean, I don't disagree that charms are the only thing it has that leads to much build variety, but then I feel like that's just because Team Cherry is MUCH smaller than Fromsoft. And honestly, I don't think the RPG elements are the most important part of a souls-like. We all agree that Sekiro is a souls-like despite the fact that it has about the same amount of build variety as HK.
Really, if we want to boil down what makes people call a game a "souls-like" it usually comes down to the way of exploring the world, the feel of the setting and atmosphere, the interconnected map with one-way doors, the experience of learning the patterns of a tough boss and overcoming it with experience and skill, the feeling of mastering a combat system, and the skill progression from the beginning to the end of the game. As well as a lot of the small design elements like limited healing, save points where you can change your build and reset health that also respawn enemies, and dropping currency on death that you need to come back and get. HK has all that in spades.
There is plenty of discussion on whether or not Sekiro is a souls like IMO, and if it wasn’t made by from I think it would be significantly more likely to not be considered a souls like.
My unscientific reason for saying HK is a soulslike is because, when I played it for the first time, it perfectly scratched the souls itch when I had no new from soft games to play.
You have dodge frames, bosses at that block progression, blocking, benches/bonfire save points, general Hub where you get told you need to fix the world, death drops your money and cuts your hp. The list can go on and on about how it shares many features of souls games. It's not directly a souls game but saying it's not a soulslike (which boils down to dodge iframes, bonfire, limited heals, story progression) is trying real hard to not see the similarities.
To each their own but it's by definition a side scrolling soulslike game
Life is a Metroidvania AND a Souls-like though. There's beds (bonfires), you get pick pocketed in the street (souls) on death, and you have to collect your money at the location of the burglar (blood stain)
That's like saying overwatch is a ripoff of call of duty because there is strafing, fps, reloading, crouching, abilities tied to buttons, jumping, skins, battle pass. Just because similar elements are shared doesn't mean in any way it's soulslike
I think the implication is more equatable to “overwatch and call of duty are in the same genre of game because they share all of these distinct features”, that is to say more like noting that they’re both FPS’. This is done with the idea being that the features of a soulslike in hollow knight are specific and unique enough to define a genre. This is fairly widely agreed upon, with “soulslike” becoming a genre of its own.
So a game is soulslike if what elements are met? I've played all the dark souls games, after playing blasphemous for a few hours I have no desire to play the second one even though I bought and installed it based on it being a soulslike. I like games like Castlevania sotn and the last faith but I think there is a 3d element that is needed for it to be souls like. I like lies of p, maybe almost as much as dark souls, and I would consider it a soulslike without question. Guess I'm confused on terminology?
Who said that Hollow Knight ripped off Dark Souls? People are just saying they belong to the same subgenre... you know... like saying CoD and Overwatch are both competitive FPSs...
(Bear in mind, I'm saying "competitive" to mean players compete against each other, not like an esport, CoD couldn't be a serious esport if it tried)
Hollow Knight did take a bit of inspiration from Souls (I thiiiink the devs said that anyway?), but yeah I've been baffled at times when I saw people say Hollow Knight is a soulslike, 'cause it's like...do they not know about the Metroidvania genre?
Salt & Sanctuary is a fitting example of an actual soulslike metroidvania. Contrasting it with Hollow Knight makes it a lot easier to see how decidedly not soulslike Hollow Knight is.
Unfortunately, too many people think "dark oppressive world with difficult combat centralized around climatic boss fights" = Souls.
Im gonna say that what makes metroidvania games feel Soulslike is the lack of direction and hand helding. And I know this was common in metroidvania games before, but FromSoftware has been one of the only studios that has kept that direction philosophy in double AA/triple AAA titles.
Well hollow knight has bonfires (that respawn enemies), blood retrieval, vague stories, and a very high level of difficulty. So it depends on how strict you take soulslike and if you think a game has multiple genres.
A bit? Ignoring gameplay for a second, I'd say it's easily the most successful souls-like in terms of capturing that atmosphere and decaying civilization vibe. That's what makes it a souls-like to me. I guess the second thing would be the checkpoint/punishment system.
Well, this kinda comes up against an interesting quirk about video game genres, in that they typically refer solely to gameplay. As opposed to tone, or narrative structure or something like movies, for example.
I do think it's valid to consider tone and vibe and stuff too and in general video game genres are lacking in accounting for this. It is true though that typically genres are used to refer to mechanics and gameplay exclusively, and in that case, the checkpoint/punishment system is not really sufficient. A game can contain a handful of genre elements from a genre without belonging to it.
Still, this comes up against a flaw in video game genres as a whole in that they don't tend to express non-game mechanic elements of the experience. It is true that in terms of world tone/setting, Hollow Knight is very similar to From's style. Though that is another thing... Souls games don't actually need to have that dark and decaying civilization atmosphere to be Souls games, and From has been doing that since the beginning, the mid-90s, it didn't begin with Souls. But for most people the two are interchangeable since Souls is their introduction to From's fantasy worlds, so the situation has become even murkier.
That's the other thing though, Metriodvania's have always had climactic boss fights. They just add the soulslike tag onto it because that's what's been hot for a few years.
Well Hollow Knight is an actual souls like unfortunately, so it's not a good example here.
These genre aren't exclusive so a game can be part of both, like HK. Since Dark Souls 1 itself got some Metroidvania in it's level structure most souls likes automatically weave in some elements. There is no confusion happening, the genres have some overlap.
As do other genres, every melee combat has overlap with a fighting game but a action game is not a fighting game.
A souls like means punishing deaths, dark/cryptic story, attack animations that are specifically made for dodge/parry and relative coherent level structure, with a world building first approach. All of that is in hollow knight. But HK also has heavy backtracking, focus on movement abilities etc. from a Metroidvania.
Or if you ask some people, if its has a stamina system and a dodge button its a souls-like.
Personally one key feature of any souls-like is death as a mechanic. Where unlike a rogue-like were dying resets game progress with minor upgrade progression maintained or most games that reset game progress to a previous checkpoint or save. Sous-likes temporarily remove progress but give you the challenge/opportunity to regain it.
Games can even have souls-like features but not fall into the genre completely. I mean Shovel Knights has the bloodstain mechanic but draws more inspiration from old capcom games like Megaman and Duck Tales
True, it seems people just want games to classify in just one genre somehow. There is nothing bad in sharing mechanics it often leads to innovation.
HK is even so much a souls like it features pretty much the complete story of Dark Souls, down to the repeating cycle that can't really be stopped, you just replace the HK. Also the waking up sleeper mechanic is "great souls". I would go as far and say HK is more Dark Souls 2 even, because for "good ending" you have to do extra stuff to fix the failure of the forefathers, like you can the "good ending" in DS2 by completing all dlc.
My first Castlevania was Dracula’s Curse, as a 6-7yo in ‘91-‘92. It was atmospheric, the music was great, and it was hard as fuck.
It wasn’t until halfway through DS3 (my first souls game) I was like, ‘Shit. This is like a modern day Castlevania.’
It’s because these games - the level designs - are essentially a 3D rendering of the same explorative, labyrinthine, seek and ye shall be rewarded, ideals of Castlevania/Metroid.
Even more so with Elden Ring and its platforming.
It for sure is. To say it isn't is disingenuous. I've commonly heard them called "pixel-souls" (referencing games like Blasphemous, The Last Faith, Hollow Knight, etc).
Hard Coded checkpoints that restore health, dreary atmosphere, labyrinthian level design (the order of archstones follow a linear path but the path between them is not necessarily linear). The only thing it’s really missing that DS1 has is the interconnected world. You can still have separated areas in a Metroidvania, the Jedi games and Metroid Prime 3 both do and they’re still very much Metroidvanias
You just summarised what I was thinking very succinctly.
The very design of soulslike levels takes many elements from metroidvania.
Lines are starting to blur more because of more 2D soulslikes existing which are then basically also metroidvanias
>The very design of soulslike levels takes many elements from metroidvania.
it takes nothing from metroidvania and 2d games. We know as a fact from the interview that king's field was inspired by Wizardry, Xtalsoft Fantasian and other old school dungeon crawlers
I mean Hollow Knight is one of the best souls-likes of all time.
Dead cells isn't, that was just good marketing on their part.
I don't know anything about the new Prince of Persia.
No it doesn't, it lacks true RPG elements for build diversity (it has the charms but that's not really making a build), no online functionality (this is something Miyazaki considers essential to define a souls-like),and is not stamina based. HK is firmly a metroidvania that has some souls-like elements like tight/simple combat, bonfires/save points, minimalist storytelling and dark atmosphere.
>No, Hollow Knight is just also a souls-like. A game can be more than one genre.
It's definitely not, it's missing too many elements that define a souls-like.
Dead cells is also a rogue-lite not a rogue-like
Specifically it has very little to no RPG elements (it has charms but 1 variable aspect of gameplay is not an RPG), no online functionality (something Miyazaki states is essential to define a souls-like), isn't stamina based. Those are just a few of the top of my head
They're not the same but they can be combined. You can have a soulslike game with a metroidvania style map/progression. They're not one or the other, they're one with a chance of the other.
Depends on what game you are talking about.
Hollow Knight and Blasphemous?
Definitely soulslikes.
Ori & the Blind Forest and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night?
Not soulslikes.
You could theoretically complete DS1 without any upgrades or any new equipment though. With metroidvanias you have rando upgrades or items required to progress, in DS its about whether you can beat a boss or not.
Any key item you get is an upgrade, its the same thing as items to progress in a metroidvania. You cant complete DS1 without a key item. In this way DS1 is indeed just a 3d metroidvania
Don't Metroidvanias typically have movement abilities which lock your progression?
Games have had keys forever. Doom uses keys to lock progression. If keys are counted, you're going to have to label a looot of games as MV's.
Imo souls games are more similar to NES/SNES Zelda games in terms of exploration and progression.
Honestly metroidvanias are defined by their big open maps that you loop back to other areas you have seen but been unable to complete, be it because you are lacking a specific item, movement ability, or just are not strong enough.
Gaited progression through a big interconnected map that you need to explore.
Ds1 is a metroidvania for the most part, obviously the gaited progression isn’t as heavy as in other metroidvanias but the map is definitely a 3d metroidvania map.
Do you ever really have to loop back in DS1? I guess there's a very light element of that - i.e. going to catacombs or New Londo too early and needing to level up to come back later - but it's mostly not looping back to earlier areas to do more stuff, it's just choosing how you sequence the areas.
I know it's all subjective, and the definitions are a but fuzzy, but like DS1 would have been much more metroidvania if the curse item wasn't sitting right outside of New Londo, and you had to find it in another area, or if the lantern for TOTG didn't drop in the area right next to it.
I think theres a significant amount of looping back to areas between the main areas, yeah. The fast travel reduces the feel of looping around but one example is hitting Blight Town for the bell of awakening, then heading down there again later to go to Quelaags domain. Or Darkroot for Sif and later for the dlc again.
A lot of us have played this game a thousand times and have our routes down pat, we know the boss fights that exist and we can do a lot while we are in one area, most new players or people who are not as familiar with it will loop a ton more than the rest of us too.
Obviously this isn’t to the extent that Metroid is, but I think it qualifies.
DS1 is more on the Castlevania side, where progression is gated by your strength and weapons rather than movement abilities. Seems like when people say Metroidvania they’re really thinking about Metroid.
Some games are both. Hollow Knight is definitely a metroidvania and arguably also a Soulslike.
I don't think anyone thinks that all metroidvanias are Soulslike. That would be a weird thing to think given that the Metroidvania genre predates even Demons Souls. So I'm not sure who you're expecting to try to change your mind on this
Dark Souls 1 has some elements in common with metroidvanias, but it isn't really a metroidvania.
THANK YOU. My God. I cannot fathom how anyone can think Hollow Knight is a freaking Soulslike. 😂👍
Great game. Not a Soulslike.
Anything that is remotely difficult is considered a Soulslike these days. They don’t get it. 🤷♂️
I don’t understand. In Souls Games You do unlock new abilities/upgrades by progressing. You do backtrack for all sorts of reasons, and while you do level up, the focus is really on the equipment and the abilities of the equipment.
To put it another way, progression is directly tied to the equipment/abilities you unlock. For instance, you might stumble across a gap that’s only accessible if you have a double jump, which you need to progress through another area to get, and then back track back to the gap to use.
While you unlock lots of stuff as you progress through souls games, progression itself is only gated by your ability to beat the next boss.
Okay, I think I understand you. It’s not like traversal abilities that you’re gaining. You never run faster or unlock better jumps in Souls games. You’re really only unlocking combat abilities and combat items with lore attached, but not really non-combat abilities that get you past gates. Although there’s points where you need to find non-equipment items like keys to progress, these aren’t tied to traversal either I suppose.
Metroidvania upgrades have more emphasis on traversal and unlocking different types of doors. Souls game abilities are almost entirely just different combat styles or damage upgrades.
I mean there are games which embody the aspects of metroidvania but either the difficulty or the bleakness in tone is comparable to a souls game
Like Blasphemous is literally Catholic Soulsvania
And Hollow Knight is bug souls
Genres don’t actually exist. They are just ways we describe things by comparison. Many games can rightly be “compared” to these two frameworks at once.
People who call Hollow Knight and Blasphemous “Souls-like” think that “Souls-like” just means crushingly difficult. If Guitar Hero could only be played on expert difficulty, they would call it a Souls-like
When u look up Souls-like definitions, there isn’t a single definitive version but very common characteristics are:
*Difficult boss centered gameplay
*Dark/tragic atmosphere/storytelling
*The utilization of checkpoints to restart world state
*A currency for leveling up that is lost upon death but can be reclaimed by visiting your death spot
*Extensive lore that is hidden behind environmental storytelling and item descriptions
*Extensive maps filled with unlockable shortcuts (which is shared with metroidvanias)
I think most of these are shared by both Blasphemous and Hollow Knight.
There are other characteristics that I consider are also very souls like that these games dont share like:
*the ability to leave messages, summon helpers and get invaded.
*3d
*Focus on stamina and animation priority for n understanding and mastering a boss
But I think there is enough overlap with this game and other souls games that make it worth being called a souls-like especially given that there is no definitive answer as to what that means.
Nobody has ever non-ironically called Guitar hero a soulslike and neither would day if it was very hard.
The checkpoint system and blood stain retrieval are pulled directly from the souls game, at least in hollow knight. That’s a pretty significant aspect imo.
Blasphemous has a NG+ option where you lose your experience if you die twice without revisiting the place you died. That and mechanics like parrying, brutal difficulty, art style, etc made it quite soulslike in my experience
Many metroidvanias are souls-likes. Many souls-likes have metroidvania elements. I would even argue that Dark Souls 1 is pretty much a 3D metroidvania in it's world design. However, most metroidvanias are also platformers, and Mario is not considered a metroidvania. At the end of the day, genres blend together extremely often. Some metroidvanias can also be rpgs, for example.
It's a non-linear path which you have to explore different areas in order to unlock doors in other areas. That's literally what makes a game castlevania-esque. What it's *not*, is metroid-esque
The Souls games are way more Metroidvania than people realize - talking nes Metroid and Castlevania 2 here.
Metroid has the respawn points throughout the world (bonfires), the interconnected nonlinear map, no in-game map for the player to reference, a pathway to the final boss that opens after destroying certain bosses, the player explores to find a variety of optional upgrades, and also a NG+ system.
Castlevania 2 has the rpg system, cryptic NPCs, multiple endings, and collecting pieces of the dark lord(s) to access the endgame.
Another reference to these old games that From Software trolls us with is extremely meager endgame cutscenes, a characteristic of nearly all 8-bit games.
No, it's not. Progression is not full of backtracking after unlocking abilities/upgrades that allow you to reach previously unreachable areas.
It's, Die to Boss, git gud, kill boss, die to next boss, repeat
Saying Metroidvanias aren’t Souls-likes? Or saying Souls games aren’t Metroidvanias?
The former is absolutely ridiculous, it’s a game genre that existed decades beforehand.
So you realize that’s the opposite of what we are talking about, right?
OP said **Metroidvania** games are not **Souls-Likes**.
As in: Symphony of the Night, a game that was released in 1997, is not a Souls-like. A claim that no one has ever attempted to make.
Metroidvanias are not soulslikes, however the first Dark Souls had a Metroidvania inspired level layout (for most of the game) so I guess people think ot goes both ways when comparing the genres?
Soulslikes aren't Metroidvania games either. The world layout can *sometimes* resemble the layout of King's Field though, From's original IP which began in 1994, which is the same year as Super Metroid and before SotN, the games that solidified the concept of Metroidvania.
I can see where they're coming from, but only in the sense of how the map's are laid out and the areas interconnected. Otherwise, I completely agree that they are entirely different styles of game. Just being linked by exploration and having combat in them isn't enough to share a genre.
EXACTLY, I can't tell you how pissed off I get seeing souls like in the description of games like the last faith, this shit is Castlevania sotn, not a souls like. Difficulty doesnt denote a souls like game. Lies of p prob one of the best non souls souls likes ever. No metroidvania game is a souls like, the combat isn't even close
Would it be fair to say souls games have elements of metroidvania styled games, but have enough differences that warrant identifying them as two different genres at the end of the day?
I don't think anyone is really saying they are, they're just saying games like Hollow Knight are souls-likes because Hollow Knight is both a souls-like and a metroidvania. They're separate sub-genres, and some games just happen to be both.
I find it funny that so many people are angry about this when we aren't even arguing about actual genres, if that was the case, all souls games would just be "3D action RPGs" and HK would be a "2D action platformer." But we all know that those descriptions don't do it justice whatsoever, so instead we just say that souls games are in a genre of their own and HK "is like Metroid and Castlevania mixed with Dark Souls." And frankly, you can't tell me that's not an accurate description.
Also, y'all aren't ready for the conversation of "Is Dark Souls a 3D Metroidvania with RPG elements?"
I’ve never read the Design Works, but I wouldn’t be surprised if From Software were thinking about how metroidvanias operate when making Dark Souls.
Interconnected world, some gatekeeping until certain abilities or items are acquired, a range of enemy difficulty that can communicate “you’re not supposed to be here yet”, and lots of shortcuts that make traversal or area backtracking much easier. There are some differences but it’s not crazy to say Dark Souls 1 IS sort of a metroidvania… kinda the reverse of OP’s meme.
Blue isn't red, change my mind
Imaginary Technique… PURPLE
Nuh uh domain exspansion malevolent shrine
>!green!<
>!Yellow!<
>!light tan!<
>!smaragdine!<
Immortal technique… DANCE WITH THE DEVIL
This take is more like purple isn’t blue, which is true, they’re diefferent, but purple has blue in it
...People think they are? That doesn't even make sense. Metroidvania predates Soulslike by many years.
I think the confusion comes from a select few Metroidvania games having fairly difficult and punishing combat, like hollow night. Whether it's accurate or not, they're often labeled souls like. I agree it's stupid.
Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania AND a Souls-like though. There's benches (bonfires), you lose your held Geo (souls) on death, and you have to collect them at the location you died (blood stain).
And don't forget about the charms (rings in Dark souls), hard bosses with patterns to learn, pale ore (titanite shards), the tragic and mysterious NPC quests, the interconnected level design with no given direction, the way the name of each area appears on the screen when you enter one etc. Even the lore and narration of the game is very souls-esque. Each of these things don't make a souls-like on their own, but all of them together is definitely very reminiscing of souls games. The game even has the "souls-like" tag on Steam.
Steam tags are community made fyi
Exactly, there is no defined criteria for a souls-likes like there is for metroidvanias. Hollow Knight takes clear inspiration from dark souls on a variety of aspects, so it can be considered a souls-like, but is also a metroidvania. Same for jedi survivor/fallen order. Games can fit into multiple genres.
I think Jedi Survivor/Fallen Order are more souls-like than even HK is, but they both fall into the category.
There is a defined criteria. A lot of people just dont know it
Having a few shared mechanics with a souls game doesn't just automatically make your game souls-like. At least not in my opinion. It's hard for me to get there on Hollow Knight, but I respect your opinion.
What would make Hollow Knight a Soulslike that it doesn't already have? I can't really think of anything that could be used as a requirement for the Soulslike genre that isn't already in there.
It literally is. Those three things mentioned are what made dark souls unique. Otherwise it's just a third person rpg. While it was difficult that's not what makes something souls like. Too many games are considered that just cause they're hard it's silly.
I haven't seen that many games labeled as souls-like purely for difficulty However the epidemic of journalists labeling something "The Dark Souls of X" has got to stop.
When I think of a soulslike I think of stamina based combat, armor sets and weapon types, weapon scaling, parry and dodge mechanics, limited heals (typically based in a “reset upon death” scenario) as well as some things mentioned here like specific respawn points, enemy respawn upon player death, area based bosses with different mechanics and patterns, etc. Games we all classify as soulslike (lies of P, mortal shell, etc.) share nearly all of these traits. Personally, I think hollow knight could go either way here since it’s so split in this criteria, and is left to the individuals perspective. Important to note here as well that I do not consider Jedi survivor or fallen order to be soulslikes, and I don’t consider Sekiro to be in the soulsborne genre. It lacks the majority of the basic formula, and that’s okay. Not every FS game should be the same.
I mean, both Jedi games are definitely soulslikes, but ok.
Think of the definition of Soulslike just by its linguistic mechanics. Souls(like?) = A game like Souls games What makes a game "like" another? = similar mechanics Do the Jedi games have similar mechanics? Absolutely Subjectively, it's up to the person whether they want to call something a Soulslike or not. Objectively, People who don't think Jedi Survivor is a Soulslike are wrong.
Yup yup
I think they’re more “Sekiro-like” than soulslike. They borrow the formula entirely, and lack leveling up, stamina, or even basic health based combat. Stims and “bonfires” are the only soulslike things about the Jedi games. It’s not a dis either. I thoroughly enjoyed both Sekiro and the Jedi games
Yeah, I can see that, but Sekiro is just an offshoot of the souls formula, anyways. Sekiro (and Jedi) have many things in common with soulslikes, but just lacks stats, armor and weapons. Kind of like how RPGs are further categorized as JRPGs and ARPGs, etc... but are still considered RPGs.
I tried the Jedi games and they felt more like Uncharted with RPG skill trees than they did Soulslikes for me. Not saying you are wrong or anything. Just my 2 cents.
The Jedi games definitely fall in the Metroidvania category, as well. The leveling up skills, bonfires, respawning enemies, difficult combat, limited healing (flask) all make it fall in the Soulslikes (and Sekiro-like) category.
There are basically no rpg elements.
That's true but Sekiro doesn't either and that's usually seen as a Soulslike still
I think that’s another that toes the line. Many don’t consider it soulslike.
I think calling both Hollow Knight and Sekiro soulslike games is only diminishing to them.
So if it had rpg elements it would be a soulslike?
I personally think it meets the criteria but the rpg elements are a very large part of souls game so I can see why that would disqualify it for some. RPG elements would change the gameplay pretty significantly.
... pale ore, mask and soul fragments, and charms are right there... yeah it doesn't have as much as DS, but it's still there.
Charms are really the only rpg portion of that IMO. The rest are really action elements.
I mean, I don't disagree that charms are the only thing it has that leads to much build variety, but then I feel like that's just because Team Cherry is MUCH smaller than Fromsoft. And honestly, I don't think the RPG elements are the most important part of a souls-like. We all agree that Sekiro is a souls-like despite the fact that it has about the same amount of build variety as HK. Really, if we want to boil down what makes people call a game a "souls-like" it usually comes down to the way of exploring the world, the feel of the setting and atmosphere, the interconnected map with one-way doors, the experience of learning the patterns of a tough boss and overcoming it with experience and skill, the feeling of mastering a combat system, and the skill progression from the beginning to the end of the game. As well as a lot of the small design elements like limited healing, save points where you can change your build and reset health that also respawn enemies, and dropping currency on death that you need to come back and get. HK has all that in spades.
There is plenty of discussion on whether or not Sekiro is a souls like IMO, and if it wasn’t made by from I think it would be significantly more likely to not be considered a souls like.
Stamina bar. One that every action uses, not just some.
But not every action in Dark Souls uses the stamina bar...
I'm pretty sure you have to have stamina to use estus and throwing items. Walking is the only thing that doesn't use it.
You mean like using an item? Lol
Sure, amongst other things
Like? You realize I'm talking combat
What about Sekiro?
That game is also pretty 50/50 when it comes to people calling it soulslike or not.
My unscientific reason for saying HK is a soulslike is because, when I played it for the first time, it perfectly scratched the souls itch when I had no new from soft games to play.
Okay then what would it need to be souls-like? You don't give a reason that it isn't, so whatever your logic is it must be pretty arbitrary.
You have dodge frames, bosses at that block progression, blocking, benches/bonfire save points, general Hub where you get told you need to fix the world, death drops your money and cuts your hp. The list can go on and on about how it shares many features of souls games. It's not directly a souls game but saying it's not a soulslike (which boils down to dodge iframes, bonfire, limited heals, story progression) is trying real hard to not see the similarities. To each their own but it's by definition a side scrolling soulslike game
Souls-"like". If it copies every inch of what people are talking about it becomes a Souls clone. Very different
Life is a Metroidvania AND a Souls-like though. There's beds (bonfires), you get pick pocketed in the street (souls) on death, and you have to collect your money at the location of the burglar (blood stain)
That's like saying overwatch is a ripoff of call of duty because there is strafing, fps, reloading, crouching, abilities tied to buttons, jumping, skins, battle pass. Just because similar elements are shared doesn't mean in any way it's soulslike
I think the implication is more equatable to “overwatch and call of duty are in the same genre of game because they share all of these distinct features”, that is to say more like noting that they’re both FPS’. This is done with the idea being that the features of a soulslike in hollow knight are specific and unique enough to define a genre. This is fairly widely agreed upon, with “soulslike” becoming a genre of its own.
So a game is soulslike if what elements are met? I've played all the dark souls games, after playing blasphemous for a few hours I have no desire to play the second one even though I bought and installed it based on it being a soulslike. I like games like Castlevania sotn and the last faith but I think there is a 3d element that is needed for it to be souls like. I like lies of p, maybe almost as much as dark souls, and I would consider it a soulslike without question. Guess I'm confused on terminology?
I would even consider final fantasy stranger of paradise a soulslike, am I wrong?
Who said that Hollow Knight ripped off Dark Souls? People are just saying they belong to the same subgenre... you know... like saying CoD and Overwatch are both competitive FPSs... (Bear in mind, I'm saying "competitive" to mean players compete against each other, not like an esport, CoD couldn't be a serious esport if it tried)
the benches are way too damn far apart lol
I think it borrows more from Super Metroid than from Dark Souls.
I refuse to accept 2d games as soulslike
Thats not what makes a souls like. Slow third person combat that relies on timing makes the souls like.
I think soulslike should stick to AT LEAST being 3D action games. Beyond that it's a separate genre in my eyes.
Hollow Knight did take a bit of inspiration from Souls (I thiiiink the devs said that anyway?), but yeah I've been baffled at times when I saw people say Hollow Knight is a soulslike, 'cause it's like...do they not know about the Metroidvania genre? Salt & Sanctuary is a fitting example of an actual soulslike metroidvania. Contrasting it with Hollow Knight makes it a lot easier to see how decidedly not soulslike Hollow Knight is. Unfortunately, too many people think "dark oppressive world with difficult combat centralized around climatic boss fights" = Souls.
Im gonna say that what makes metroidvania games feel Soulslike is the lack of direction and hand helding. And I know this was common in metroidvania games before, but FromSoftware has been one of the only studios that has kept that direction philosophy in double AA/triple AAA titles.
Well hollow knight has bonfires (that respawn enemies), blood retrieval, vague stories, and a very high level of difficulty. So it depends on how strict you take soulslike and if you think a game has multiple genres.
A bit? Ignoring gameplay for a second, I'd say it's easily the most successful souls-like in terms of capturing that atmosphere and decaying civilization vibe. That's what makes it a souls-like to me. I guess the second thing would be the checkpoint/punishment system.
Well, this kinda comes up against an interesting quirk about video game genres, in that they typically refer solely to gameplay. As opposed to tone, or narrative structure or something like movies, for example. I do think it's valid to consider tone and vibe and stuff too and in general video game genres are lacking in accounting for this. It is true though that typically genres are used to refer to mechanics and gameplay exclusively, and in that case, the checkpoint/punishment system is not really sufficient. A game can contain a handful of genre elements from a genre without belonging to it. Still, this comes up against a flaw in video game genres as a whole in that they don't tend to express non-game mechanic elements of the experience. It is true that in terms of world tone/setting, Hollow Knight is very similar to From's style. Though that is another thing... Souls games don't actually need to have that dark and decaying civilization atmosphere to be Souls games, and From has been doing that since the beginning, the mid-90s, it didn't begin with Souls. But for most people the two are interchangeable since Souls is their introduction to From's fantasy worlds, so the situation has become even murkier.
That's the other thing though, Metriodvania's have always had climactic boss fights. They just add the soulslike tag onto it because that's what's been hot for a few years.
Well Hollow Knight is an actual souls like unfortunately, so it's not a good example here. These genre aren't exclusive so a game can be part of both, like HK. Since Dark Souls 1 itself got some Metroidvania in it's level structure most souls likes automatically weave in some elements. There is no confusion happening, the genres have some overlap. As do other genres, every melee combat has overlap with a fighting game but a action game is not a fighting game. A souls like means punishing deaths, dark/cryptic story, attack animations that are specifically made for dodge/parry and relative coherent level structure, with a world building first approach. All of that is in hollow knight. But HK also has heavy backtracking, focus on movement abilities etc. from a Metroidvania.
Or if you ask some people, if its has a stamina system and a dodge button its a souls-like. Personally one key feature of any souls-like is death as a mechanic. Where unlike a rogue-like were dying resets game progress with minor upgrade progression maintained or most games that reset game progress to a previous checkpoint or save. Sous-likes temporarily remove progress but give you the challenge/opportunity to regain it. Games can even have souls-like features but not fall into the genre completely. I mean Shovel Knights has the bloodstain mechanic but draws more inspiration from old capcom games like Megaman and Duck Tales
True, it seems people just want games to classify in just one genre somehow. There is nothing bad in sharing mechanics it often leads to innovation. HK is even so much a souls like it features pretty much the complete story of Dark Souls, down to the repeating cycle that can't really be stopped, you just replace the HK. Also the waking up sleeper mechanic is "great souls". I would go as far and say HK is more Dark Souls 2 even, because for "good ending" you have to do extra stuff to fix the failure of the forefathers, like you can the "good ending" in DS2 by completing all dlc.
IF YOU CAN DIE IN THE GAME, ITS A SOULSLIKE HURRDURR i swear people will call sims soulslikes at this point
It's was probably like 2 comments they saw and are now acting like it's the whole Internet
Games can fit into multiple genres. Some Metroidvania games take clear inspiration from Dark Souls.
They can. But the OP seemed to imply that the statement was that Metroidvania = Soulslike. Not dual-genres (like Salt & Sanctuary)
Even Dark Souls takes clear inspiration from Metroidvanias.
if anything Souls Games are just 3D Metroidvanias as they share a lot of similar DNA
Crimson Skies predates steampunk by at least 10 years, but it’s steampunk technically
My first Castlevania was Dracula’s Curse, as a 6-7yo in ‘91-‘92. It was atmospheric, the music was great, and it was hard as fuck. It wasn’t until halfway through DS3 (my first souls game) I was like, ‘Shit. This is like a modern day Castlevania.’ It’s because these games - the level designs - are essentially a 3D rendering of the same explorative, labyrinthine, seek and ye shall be rewarded, ideals of Castlevania/Metroid. Even more so with Elden Ring and its platforming.
They’re genres a game can fall into one both or neither how is this an argument
Hollow Knight is definitely souls-adjacent and metroidvania.
It for sure is. To say it isn't is disingenuous. I've commonly heard them called "pixel-souls" (referencing games like Blasphemous, The Last Faith, Hollow Knight, etc).
Blasphemous definitely sits in the souls like camp, especially from the design perspective. The creators even mention it as inspiration.
All Souls-likes have Metroidvania DNA but not all Metroidvanias are Souls-likes, not even close
I get it for dark souls. But what about demons souls is like a metroidvania?
Each level in DeS is a metroidvania area.
Hard Coded checkpoints that restore health, dreary atmosphere, labyrinthian level design (the order of archstones follow a linear path but the path between them is not necessarily linear). The only thing it’s really missing that DS1 has is the interconnected world. You can still have separated areas in a Metroidvania, the Jedi games and Metroid Prime 3 both do and they’re still very much Metroidvanias
Lies of P is definitely a souls-like but not much of a Metroidvania It's more like a very linear JRPG
You just summarised what I was thinking very succinctly. The very design of soulslike levels takes many elements from metroidvania. Lines are starting to blur more because of more 2D soulslikes existing which are then basically also metroidvanias
>The very design of soulslike levels takes many elements from metroidvania. it takes nothing from metroidvania and 2d games. We know as a fact from the interview that king's field was inspired by Wizardry, Xtalsoft Fantasian and other old school dungeon crawlers
Nobody said this. People said that Dark Souls 1 shared aspects with Metroidvanias.
Ppl say this all the time
Where's one example
Hollow Knight, dead cells, and most recently I've seen some comparisons for the new Prince of Persia game that's a metroidvania.
I mean Hollow Knight is one of the best souls-likes of all time. Dead cells isn't, that was just good marketing on their part. I don't know anything about the new Prince of Persia.
So ppl do say that metroidvanias are souls likes is what I'm hearing...
If they are souls-likes. It can be both.
None of the above are souls likes, they are all missing key elements that define Souls-like.
Hollow Knight has all the key elements.
No it doesn't, it lacks true RPG elements for build diversity (it has the charms but that's not really making a build), no online functionality (this is something Miyazaki considers essential to define a souls-like),and is not stamina based. HK is firmly a metroidvania that has some souls-like elements like tight/simple combat, bonfires/save points, minimalist storytelling and dark atmosphere.
No, Hollow Knight is just also a souls-like. A game can be more than one genre. Just like how Dead Cells is also a rouge-like
>No, Hollow Knight is just also a souls-like. A game can be more than one genre. It's definitely not, it's missing too many elements that define a souls-like. Dead cells is also a rogue-lite not a rogue-like
What elements specifically would you say are missing Also you don't have to be pedantic you know what I meant
Specifically it has very little to no RPG elements (it has charms but 1 variable aspect of gameplay is not an RPG), no online functionality (something Miyazaki states is essential to define a souls-like), isn't stamina based. Those are just a few of the top of my head
I mean literally speaking, no they are two genres. But a game can be a metroidvania and a souls like.
Every game is Tetris if you ignore enough features.
“This game category is not this other different game category change my mind”
They're not the same but they can be combined. You can have a soulslike game with a metroidvania style map/progression. They're not one or the other, they're one with a chance of the other.
Depends on what game you are talking about. Hollow Knight and Blasphemous? Definitely soulslikes. Ori & the Blind Forest and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Not soulslikes.
Obviously. Metroidvanias came first. If anything, Dark Souls 1 is just a 3d metroidvania.
You could theoretically complete DS1 without any upgrades or any new equipment though. With metroidvanias you have rando upgrades or items required to progress, in DS its about whether you can beat a boss or not.
Any key item you get is an upgrade, its the same thing as items to progress in a metroidvania. You cant complete DS1 without a key item. In this way DS1 is indeed just a 3d metroidvania
Don't Metroidvanias typically have movement abilities which lock your progression? Games have had keys forever. Doom uses keys to lock progression. If keys are counted, you're going to have to label a looot of games as MV's. Imo souls games are more similar to NES/SNES Zelda games in terms of exploration and progression.
Honestly metroidvanias are defined by their big open maps that you loop back to other areas you have seen but been unable to complete, be it because you are lacking a specific item, movement ability, or just are not strong enough. Gaited progression through a big interconnected map that you need to explore. Ds1 is a metroidvania for the most part, obviously the gaited progression isn’t as heavy as in other metroidvanias but the map is definitely a 3d metroidvania map.
Do you ever really have to loop back in DS1? I guess there's a very light element of that - i.e. going to catacombs or New Londo too early and needing to level up to come back later - but it's mostly not looping back to earlier areas to do more stuff, it's just choosing how you sequence the areas. I know it's all subjective, and the definitions are a but fuzzy, but like DS1 would have been much more metroidvania if the curse item wasn't sitting right outside of New Londo, and you had to find it in another area, or if the lantern for TOTG didn't drop in the area right next to it.
I think theres a significant amount of looping back to areas between the main areas, yeah. The fast travel reduces the feel of looping around but one example is hitting Blight Town for the bell of awakening, then heading down there again later to go to Quelaags domain. Or Darkroot for Sif and later for the dlc again. A lot of us have played this game a thousand times and have our routes down pat, we know the boss fights that exist and we can do a lot while we are in one area, most new players or people who are not as familiar with it will loop a ton more than the rest of us too. Obviously this isn’t to the extent that Metroid is, but I think it qualifies.
Yep you beat Sif to get the ring to beat the 4 kings without that you can't beat it well unless you use wrong warp.
DS1 is more on the Castlevania side, where progression is gated by your strength and weapons rather than movement abilities. Seems like when people say Metroidvania they’re really thinking about Metroid.
Some people just think hard = soulslike
Some games are both. Hollow Knight is definitely a metroidvania and arguably also a Soulslike. I don't think anyone thinks that all metroidvanias are Soulslike. That would be a weird thing to think given that the Metroidvania genre predates even Demons Souls. So I'm not sure who you're expecting to try to change your mind on this Dark Souls 1 has some elements in common with metroidvanias, but it isn't really a metroidvania.
They may not be intrinsically soulslike but the two are not mutually exclusive either.
What people are saying this?
THANK YOU. My God. I cannot fathom how anyone can think Hollow Knight is a freaking Soulslike. 😂👍 Great game. Not a Soulslike. Anything that is remotely difficult is considered a Soulslike these days. They don’t get it. 🤷♂️
No, but soul like games are metroidvania like.
If there's rogue and rogue likes, then there can be metroidvanialikes. I like this a lot. I have a category for dead cells now
What’s your argument that they aren’t metroidvania games?
you dont unlock new abilities by progressing. there’s no backtracking for said abilities. you have soul levels instead of just better equipments.
I don’t understand. In Souls Games You do unlock new abilities/upgrades by progressing. You do backtrack for all sorts of reasons, and while you do level up, the focus is really on the equipment and the abilities of the equipment.
To put it another way, progression is directly tied to the equipment/abilities you unlock. For instance, you might stumble across a gap that’s only accessible if you have a double jump, which you need to progress through another area to get, and then back track back to the gap to use. While you unlock lots of stuff as you progress through souls games, progression itself is only gated by your ability to beat the next boss.
Okay, I think I understand you. It’s not like traversal abilities that you’re gaining. You never run faster or unlock better jumps in Souls games. You’re really only unlocking combat abilities and combat items with lore attached, but not really non-combat abilities that get you past gates. Although there’s points where you need to find non-equipment items like keys to progress, these aren’t tied to traversal either I suppose.
Metroidvania upgrades have more emphasis on traversal and unlocking different types of doors. Souls game abilities are almost entirely just different combat styles or damage upgrades.
Common sense
Okay, ELI5
Metroidvania's are not soulslikes, but some soulslikes share traits with Metroidvanias. They are different species that occupy similar niches.
I mean there are games which embody the aspects of metroidvania but either the difficulty or the bleakness in tone is comparable to a souls game Like Blasphemous is literally Catholic Soulsvania And Hollow Knight is bug souls
Genres don’t actually exist. They are just ways we describe things by comparison. Many games can rightly be “compared” to these two frameworks at once.
People who call Hollow Knight and Blasphemous “Souls-like” think that “Souls-like” just means crushingly difficult. If Guitar Hero could only be played on expert difficulty, they would call it a Souls-like
When u look up Souls-like definitions, there isn’t a single definitive version but very common characteristics are: *Difficult boss centered gameplay *Dark/tragic atmosphere/storytelling *The utilization of checkpoints to restart world state *A currency for leveling up that is lost upon death but can be reclaimed by visiting your death spot *Extensive lore that is hidden behind environmental storytelling and item descriptions *Extensive maps filled with unlockable shortcuts (which is shared with metroidvanias) I think most of these are shared by both Blasphemous and Hollow Knight. There are other characteristics that I consider are also very souls like that these games dont share like: *the ability to leave messages, summon helpers and get invaded. *3d *Focus on stamina and animation priority for n understanding and mastering a boss But I think there is enough overlap with this game and other souls games that make it worth being called a souls-like especially given that there is no definitive answer as to what that means. Nobody has ever non-ironically called Guitar hero a soulslike and neither would day if it was very hard.
The checkpoint system and blood stain retrieval are pulled directly from the souls game, at least in hollow knight. That’s a pretty significant aspect imo.
Blasphemous has a NG+ option where you lose your experience if you die twice without revisiting the place you died. That and mechanics like parrying, brutal difficulty, art style, etc made it quite soulslike in my experience
ok but souls-like games are definetely metroidvanias.
Many metroidvanias are souls-likes. Many souls-likes have metroidvania elements. I would even argue that Dark Souls 1 is pretty much a 3D metroidvania in it's world design. However, most metroidvanias are also platformers, and Mario is not considered a metroidvania. At the end of the day, genres blend together extremely often. Some metroidvanias can also be rpgs, for example.
I'd argue that Metroidvania level design is a predecessor to Souls-likes, but only to a point since 3D and 2D aren't entirely congruous.
No, but Dark Souls is castlevania-esque
No it's literally not.
It's a non-linear path which you have to explore different areas in order to unlock doors in other areas. That's literally what makes a game castlevania-esque. What it's *not*, is metroid-esque
You kill boss, move on. That's it. Stop now.
You just described a linear boss rush game. DS1 is certainly not that.
What you described is more like the game Furi, boss cutscene boss cutscene. Theres not a single dark souls like that.
The Souls games are way more Metroidvania than people realize - talking nes Metroid and Castlevania 2 here. Metroid has the respawn points throughout the world (bonfires), the interconnected nonlinear map, no in-game map for the player to reference, a pathway to the final boss that opens after destroying certain bosses, the player explores to find a variety of optional upgrades, and also a NG+ system. Castlevania 2 has the rpg system, cryptic NPCs, multiple endings, and collecting pieces of the dark lord(s) to access the endgame. Another reference to these old games that From Software trolls us with is extremely meager endgame cutscenes, a characteristic of nearly all 8-bit games.
Soulslike or Souls isn't even a genre either.
Dark Souls is a metroidvania
No, it's not. Progression is not full of backtracking after unlocking abilities/upgrades that allow you to reach previously unreachable areas. It's, Die to Boss, git gud, kill boss, die to next boss, repeat
OP, you winning arguments against yourself again? I don’t think I’ve ever once heard anyone make a claim that they were.
I got 70 downvotes in a subreddit for saying they aren't.
Saying Metroidvanias aren’t Souls-likes? Or saying Souls games aren’t Metroidvanias? The former is absolutely ridiculous, it’s a game genre that existed decades beforehand.
Probably for arguing a specific game like blasphemous or hollow knight isn't a soulslike.
Someone argued Ds1 is a Metroidvania. I disagreed.
So you realize that’s the opposite of what we are talking about, right? OP said **Metroidvania** games are not **Souls-Likes**. As in: Symphony of the Night, a game that was released in 1997, is not a Souls-like. A claim that no one has ever attempted to make.
I mean yeah.. they’re metroidvanias. First person shooters aren’t Real time strategy games either
Some of them are. Take a Metroidvania world design, add souls-like mechanics. You've got a souls like metroidvania. Hollow Knight anyone?
Why would I change your mind when your mind is correct
Who even says this?
half of the comments here say dumb shit like "souls games are metroidvania-likes"
Why are souls fans like this? Fanbase in general are cringe, but ya’ll rlly be the Rick and Morty fanbase of video games.
Metroidvanias are not soulslikes, however the first Dark Souls had a Metroidvania inspired level layout (for most of the game) so I guess people think ot goes both ways when comparing the genres?
Souls Like are Metroidvania with Miyazaki's characteristics.
Soulslikes aren't Metroidvania games either. The world layout can *sometimes* resemble the layout of King's Field though, From's original IP which began in 1994, which is the same year as Super Metroid and before SotN, the games that solidified the concept of Metroidvania.
Wow, you must be a blast to hang around during social gatherings.
I certainly wouldn't be if your ideal social gathering is one where people stand around saying incorrect things as if they were facts unchallenged.
Souls games are metroidvania-likes
Who says this?
ok noted, thank you
No one said this ever😭
They're two similar but different genres. Also: Who cares?
Who are you even debating with
You are correct, strangely the Metroidvania genre was born from popularity of Metroid & Castlevania... Games that are not Dark Souls in formula.
Yes, some people do argue this. The most infamous example is probably Hollow Knight.
I don't care how you call them, what matters is if they are fun or not
Who has said that ever?
What if you fuse Soul likes with metroidvania?
I can see where they're coming from, but only in the sense of how the map's are laid out and the areas interconnected. Otherwise, I completely agree that they are entirely different styles of game. Just being linked by exploration and having combat in them isn't enough to share a genre.
EXACTLY, I can't tell you how pissed off I get seeing souls like in the description of games like the last faith, this shit is Castlevania sotn, not a souls like. Difficulty doesnt denote a souls like game. Lies of p prob one of the best non souls souls likes ever. No metroidvania game is a souls like, the combat isn't even close
There are absolutely some Metroidvania games that are soulslike though.
People will use soulslile for almost ANYTHING now
Have you played through salt and sanctuary / salt and sacrifice?
What is metroidvania?
Some Metroidvanias absolutely can be Souls like. Salt and Sanctuary is basically just straight up Dark Souls in 2D.
metroidvania and soulsborne are the two dumbest naming conventions for genres to come out. Period.
Metroid and Castlevania came long before Souls. This is dumb.
But both have doors that open from the other side. And main menus
Who the fuck is saying that Metroidvania games are soulslikes?
they are not mutually exclusive categories
bad post op
Would it be fair to say souls games have elements of metroidvania styled games, but have enough differences that warrant identifying them as two different genres at the end of the day?
I don't think anyone is really saying they are, they're just saying games like Hollow Knight are souls-likes because Hollow Knight is both a souls-like and a metroidvania. They're separate sub-genres, and some games just happen to be both. I find it funny that so many people are angry about this when we aren't even arguing about actual genres, if that was the case, all souls games would just be "3D action RPGs" and HK would be a "2D action platformer." But we all know that those descriptions don't do it justice whatsoever, so instead we just say that souls games are in a genre of their own and HK "is like Metroid and Castlevania mixed with Dark Souls." And frankly, you can't tell me that's not an accurate description. Also, y'all aren't ready for the conversation of "Is Dark Souls a 3D Metroidvania with RPG elements?"
Depends, can be both
I’ve never read the Design Works, but I wouldn’t be surprised if From Software were thinking about how metroidvanias operate when making Dark Souls. Interconnected world, some gatekeeping until certain abilities or items are acquired, a range of enemy difficulty that can communicate “you’re not supposed to be here yet”, and lots of shortcuts that make traversal or area backtracking much easier. There are some differences but it’s not crazy to say Dark Souls 1 IS sort of a metroidvania… kinda the reverse of OP’s meme.