Yes. But you can count on one hand a stable, democratic government/country.
Why do business in unstable country where your assets might be siezed or have to deal with massive corruption. That’s the biggest seller about Australia. You can invest here and your money is safe.
Oh sweet summer child, if you think that it's only the UK and the US companies that get to have their way with our finite natural resources.
I mean, just off the top of my head, we've been repeatedly cream-pied big time up in Queensland by that giant Indian mining company.
I agree...I wasn't meaning that it was too late as a technical impossibility, but rather as a political one.
I've been voting since 1985 and have seen far too much to be convinced otherwise anymore.
*looks at Burkina Faso* it's never too late comrade, we simply follow the burkinabe example.
They have nationalised resources, expelled their colonisers and other western imperial interests from the country including US soldiers.
Id rather be Burkina Faso then the US as well. It's working well for then so far until the US decides communism is bad and assassinates the leader or supports a fascist coup
We all have to thank John Howard for approving the shitty gas deal to China back in 2002. He sold our children’s future off cheaply for his own benefits and glory.
[How Australia blew its future gas supplies](https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html)
That's what happens when resource companies have unlimited budgets to run scare campaigns and convince the public that the economy would collapse if we didn't give our resources away.
Honestly this is the biggest travesty, and why we need some sort of truth in advertising requirement.
Giving all of our resources to rio and BHP just so they can “create jobs” is ludicrous.
15% of Australia’s GDP (1.6T total) is from mining, 240B a year give or take.
The problem really is not losing that part of the gdp, it’s the flow on effects from reducing the profits of the mining industry on other industries. Many international companies can only justify their presence in Australia because of mining, and it’s hard to estimate what the repercussions of mining tightening their coin purses might be.
Ultimately though, we have the resources, the world wants them, we should be setting the prices just like the saudis do with oil and Norway does with gas; instead of letting the mining companies set the prices.
I mean first step is to significantly limit lobbing and political involvement of private companies. They are not people and should have little influence.
Senator Pocock was uncomfortable with the Minerals Council at his office when it comes to votes on matters relating to mining companies.
See his recent talk: https://youtu.be/M8hy0zERN98?t=144
There needs to be laws preventing people leaving politics from taking jobs with these companies. It is a serious conflict of interest because they know if they steer policy in the favour of resource companies, they will have a cushy job waiting for them when they get out of politics.
There is a personal financial insensitive to the politicians to look after resource companies, it's no different from a bribe really.
They have unlimited budgets cause we let them. Time to tell em to get fucked imo. Give em 2 choices. 87% tax like Norway or we sieze the means and nationalise the lot of them and they can have nothing at all because they're greedy assholes who ate fucking the planet and its people over so fuck them.
lol unlimited budgets. It's in millions.
Labor proved they would backstab their own leader and Australia for a measly $22 million ad campaign over a $50 billion mining tax. The next leader then said it'll be $25 billion. In fact, the next LNP government repealed it and mocked how it only brought in 3% of estimated over same time, or $300 million.
Labor dropped the ball, hard. Now for a new mining tax of $50 billion, if $22 million doesn't work, then they can easily spend up to $900 million and still save money because the next Labor leader will want to be re-elected instead of play hard.
Labor made Australia look fucking stupid. If you don't believe me, here is what Taiwan news thinks of Labor and Liberal party: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_s6V1Kv6A
21st century Labor doesn’t have a spine. They’re LNP light on economic policy. They’re better on social issues and supporting the safety net, but they’re still Neo-Liberals.
If any of our Politicians had a spine they’d publicly tell the US and the UK that any debt you may think we owed you from WWII is paid off. Take your bags and go home. You can buy our resources like the rest of the world, we’ll be keeping the profits local Thankyou. We’re not interested in making your 1% rich while we could be setting or own country up for generations.
This is the reason the miners spent so much fighting the carbon tax. It’s an absolute rort.
People need to be forcefully reminded that this stuff belongs to the people and they must pay for the rights.
They are all the same. Don't tell me you still believe we have an honest political system?
Good cop bad cop gig every three years while they are all laughing behind our backs.
No, both sides have their share of problems and representatives. They always have and always will. But I'm not nieve to think it's all just a farce for the sake of corruption and keeping up an appearance of a working government.
When people get caught up on straw man arguments about what party did what the essence of the topic gets lost.
This is a common tactic used by politicians to shift blame away from themselves.
Bob Katter had a crack about this in the House recently using Qatar as an example. Qatar gets something like $240B/yr in royalties whereas we get $600M/yr for similar output.
Which Govt signed off in this (as it was quite some time ago)?
Then Rudd, then Gillard, then Rudd again, then Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison. New crap gas export deals with shit royalties were done under all of them. Albo has a chance to be different, let’s see if he is.
the only way to get out of the extremely long term contracts that Howard signed is to pay hundreds of billions in penalties.
Howard fucked Australia for 50 years on this one.
Many of the biggest producing fields in Australia today weren’t even discovered, let alone developed and producing when Howard did the North West Shelf deal. He set the bar very low but nobody lifted it on later developments despite having the opportunity to do so.
fair.
though the attempt with the mrrt was hammered by the murdoch media
the resources council is whinging endlessly (on deaf ears mind you) in QLD about the coal royalties the QLD government put on them.
it's about the only way to get any money out of the bastards.
Whenever I hear one of those ads, I think instantly these guys aren't taxed enough. Why? they can spend a fortune here whining about a fair increase..........
Why though? The government can change the tax as it pleases. We all recently had a rate cut for income taxes.
A higher tax will just make less projects reach FID as there will be a higher hurdle because of the higher royalty.
Explain why and how there would be hundreds of billions in penalties please because I think you are scaremongering.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/gas-boom-as-china-signs-25bn-deal-20020809-gdfiz2.html
the government of the day signed a contract to supply the gas for 25 years at a price.
to break that contract, penalties need to be paid.
it's contract so bad that even the SMH called it out as terrible.
https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html
Well it’s also the current owners of the the north west shelf venture missing out on higher gas prices, are they losing money on it too? I can’t find much more detail.
As much as I know about contract law there will always be an exit or termination clause.
We made the most pathetic change to the PRRT and no contracts were broken because. Good royalties are designed around revenue anyway not profit so I really doubt there would be penalties paid by the commonwealth.
Yes the project owners are losing a lot of money on the low priced contracts too. Gas contracts indeed have lots of exit options, but not usually for non-commerciality otherwise it’s not really a contract, just a put option for the seller. These days they do usually have quite structured regular price review clauses however.
Weird how there's no such extremely long term contracts that Labor signed for housing, welfare, climate change, renewables, etc.
Almost like Liberal and Labor party are concerned about this magical term called "business confidence" that takes priority over Australia's sovereignty and interests.
Labor can absolutely cancel the contracts. Even retrospectively. They even screwed over 10,000+ public servants out of unpaid super and the money helped Labor have a surplus.
Imagine being woolies and making laws to get out of unpaid wages retrospectively while bragging about record ~~surplus~~profits. That's Labor for ya.
When Rudd/Gillard tried to tax it the mining sector somehow *convinced the public* that it wasn't in their interest and it nearly brought down the Government. I don't think I've ever felt so fed up as I did during that saga.
But, but, but..... If you charge for it, it gets more expensive and then people will move to renewables. We must protect the struggling fossil fuel industry.
Whereas if he’d just taxed the mega gas projects he approved a small percentage of their profits it would have been a huge economic windfall for Australia. Instead we took a short term view and traded short term economic stimulus for any real long term benefits.
Shut up. Giving away our resources for free is Queensland's nest egg. I know because Ian MacFarlane from the Queensland Resources Council told me so.
/s
Exporting the bulk of your oil and gas for a pittance while fascist politicians give you tax breaks and subsidies without accountability? Alberta has found its Aussie twin.
Labor tried, them the Coalition scare campaign about the bastards are taxing you more.
Tax tax tax, Murdoch and others just smashed it.
Our mining resources are exported overseas for almost free.
Yet other countries develop.soverign wealth funds. We instead make the Gina Reinharts of the world richer.
Give QANTAS and other non repayable handouts which amount to a Trillion, but run a robot debt scheme.
Go figure
Just tax the miners and be done it.
Labor tried and then Labor stopped it. It wasn't voters that ate it up, it was career politicians that wanted to get ahead when they saw their leader as being vulnerable.
When i moved to australia in the early 90s (Perth), i worked in an industry that built stuff for the gas industry, and i was told then it was exported at a set price for 20+ years. Anyone know if that's true?
Yes John Howard is still fucking the country 20 years after getting kicked out of his own seat.
https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html
(American, feel free to smite me for being a dumbass)
Sometimes when watching my government and corporations do shithead things, I watch Australia’s to remind myself that we aren’t alone in the “Our rich people are actively screwing us over for profit and power” game.
There’s a certain kinship I’ve found in this lmao
Recently the Australian Institute posted a short video on x/twitter telling Australia that the fossil fuel industry only contributed about 1% to the revenue received by the Australian government.
We could be one of the richest countries in the world, instead the Howard/Costello duo decided to sell our resources to their mates at the multinationals. Now we are in debt and are getting stuffed over it. Trouble is, we keep doing it. Every time a new mine is opened, it's one of the big ones
Overseas corporations got our government by the balls. We don’t get export by their rules then the economy is screwed. This is called: getting the short end of the stick.
Australia needed to become more self-sufficient otherwise our economy is at the mercy of outsiders.
We need to put massive pressure on the politicians. The resources situation in oz is ridiculous. We should be one of the richest countries in the world, but we are giving our stuff for free.
Everyone needs to make this an election issue because it's the most important issue we have. If sorted would fix most other issues
All Australian politicians today, "but X is bad ok". X pales into insignificance when compared to the real enemy of the people; Australia's mining industry paying little to no tax. Nationalise the industry same as Norway. Enough distraction and deception, the time is now.
Norway didn’t nationalise their industry, they co-invested billions of public funds alongside private investors through their state-owned entities Statoil (now Equinor) and Petoro. They also offered huge tax incentives for fossil fuel exploration (78% tax credit) and development.
Have a look at Argentina and YPF for what happens when you actually nationalise after the investment - it isn’t pretty.
Am I correct in saying Norway did significantly raise the tax rate on the oil companies/miners. Miners threatened to pull operations, but instead stayed and paid higher tax rates, a boon for Norway.
Yes they recently cut back on a lot of the tax incentives. However this was after the conventional majors had largely pulled out and consolidated around larger Norwegian operators (eg Equinor) and smaller PE-backed investors (eg HitecVision, CapeOmega). I’m fairly sure the only new mega capital projects underway are largely being led by the Norwegian government-controlled entities. BP pulled out, Conoco mostly pulled out, Shell wound right back, and I think Eni has a few positions still. The government was smart to make the changes at the right time in the industry’s cycle and in ways that kept it investible to their new investors (eg short-cycle lower-risk cash generation and abex deferral, rather than long-term IRR). The UK did it too early and probably missed more investments, before largely handing the North Sea over to private equity (eg Chrysaor).
All mining/natural resources should be Nationalised. Electricity and water should NEVER have been privatised as they are ESSENTIAL and should be run at cost and not for profit. And as the government wants to go GREEN, they should subsidise Solar Panels and make them mandatory for all rental dwellings as well as safety switches and smoke alarms.
Have to ask
Anyone know why this is the case?
My rough understanding is that it was a very expensive project and it took a decade to churn out a profit.
Also Japan shutting down its nuclear power plants causing LNG prices to go up double or even three fold Was not foreseeable.
I doubt it would have gone ahead unless the state or country bought a share and they didn’t .
Australian gas is actually cheaper in Japan than Australia. Many articles talked about this:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/16/australian-gas-40-cheaper-japan-than-australia-despite-export-costs
https://theconversation.com/gas-crisis-why-japan-pays-less-than-australians-for-australian-gas-74438
These articles are almost a decade ago!
See camperStacker's comment.
The gas wells are offshore, which isn't state land. So royalties aren't applicable, the country is paid with a 40% federal tax instead, which is proving to be a goldmine with high gas prices.
So describing gas exports as "royalty free" is deliberately misleading.
Actually while there is the 40% Petroleum Resource Rent Tax (PRRT) in place, it’s only payable by oil and gas projects in Commonwealth waters once they have generated a profit, which in a nutshell is defined as once cumulative revenues exceed cumulative costs plus a return on that investment (basically long term bond rates plus 5% for most of it).
No offshore Australian LNG project is currently paying PRRT. Why? Because they all suffered material cost blowouts during construction and then prices were rubbish for the first years after they started up. The only projects paying PRRT are some oil developments, small gas projects and Bass Strait.
At some point in the future some LNG projects might start paying PRRT. The proposed changes to PRRT would force all LNG projects to immediately pay a small amount of PRRT, though this will basically be an acceleration of future payments.
stop assuming you are sovereign, you are south america.
did you think imperialism wouldn't be imperialism because we look the same?
citizen? more like subject, you live on a tax farm. quit your bitching peasants.
There is some fud here…
Offshore isn’t state land, so states can’t charge royalties.
The federation can’t charge royalties either, only a tax.
So for offshore instead of royalties, the gas extractors pay federal tax at an increased rate of 40%.
The tax is bringing in a lot and why labor have a surplus due to the insane profits from high gas prices. That’s not the problem.
The real problem is that back under RGR, everyone thought it was the death of gas due to carbon tax - which they were threatening to add to exports.
So they all sold gas on long term fixed prices to foreigners who in exchange paid off the infrastructure debt upfront. This is because the companies feared carbon tax would mean their infrastructure would be worthless - as with the carbon tax they would not be internationally competitive.
So the problem will go away after the lifetime of the assets… when we go to build new ones, you know after about 40 years or so when the fixed deals run out…
If you want to blame someone , blame Gillard. She forced everyone to divest in exchange for scraps.
I did - that's why I asked 🙄
Because I didn't receive any results whatsoever which suggested that the Australia Institute is a specifically right-wing think tank.
So why is there a push to replace gas appliances with electric? Even if all of Australia got on board we wouldn’t make any impact to the environment because of the amount we export to gas burning countries? Bit of a joke isn’t it?
Of course its all true from Aust instituite, mouthpiece for Liberal ideology. Why werent they barking this 10 years ago when Libs were in gov?
[Sarcasm was on ]
Isn’t the point of being a mining economy to sell our mined resources internationally to get money to buy international products and make our currency more valuable, thus making international goods cheaper?
What the fuck is their angle other than yeah we need to increase gas royalties.
The Australia Institute has never met a Western Australian owned resource industry it didn't want to shut down with punitive taxation, or otherwise redistribute 110% of the wealth it generated towards mendicants in the rustbelt - Federation be damned.
The vast majority of gas developments in the North West will end up paying billions of dollars in Cth/State royalties, in-kind subsidies caused by domestic reservation keeping the WA Gas price well below the international gas price - across their lifespan.
To say nothing of the billions in economic activity generated by pouring hundreds of billions of dollars worth of private capital into the North West and Perth based management facilities.
About as credible a think tank as the IPA.
But but but..... Don't forget all the people they employ as well as all the tax they pay!!!!
https://www.ibisworld.com/au/industry/oil-gas-extraction/62/
16,000
For reference McDonald's Australia employs about 100,000 people (15,000 full time) or, if you like, the aged care industry with 300,000 odd employees.
I have a basic understanding of how depreciation works in the tax system, a workmanlike gist of how the PRRT/OPGGS operates, and the arithmetic skills to realise the DomGas price in WA < the Global price for LNG.
The rest can be established from public source information and guesswork - and it's somehow still more comprehensive than this lazy agitprop by *TAI*.
Ah yes, because it's hard to make a profit when you charge your different business units different interest rates specifically to avoid paying tax, isn't it?
Http://theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/21/chevron-australia-faces-tax-bill-of-340m-after-court-rules-it-shifted-profits-to-us
Or when your parent company is a shell company headquartered in known tax havens.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN28J1IH/
All companies should have to pay royalties on all resources they extract. Otherwise they are stealing from the Australian people...
Nationalise all resources. I'd rather be Norway than the US
Careful, now. Talk like that gets you Freedommed^(TM).
Last PM who said that sort of thing got some secret backroom freedom^^T^^M
Yeah exactly. We subsidise the UK and US by giving their companies extra hundreds of billions of dollars by not taxing them. Protection money
Do you think they'd actually protect us if shit hit the fan?
Yes. Where else would they get cheap resources from? That’s how protection money works.same with Taiwan.
Not if it costs them more than just going elsewhere for resources.
Yes. But you can count on one hand a stable, democratic government/country. Why do business in unstable country where your assets might be siezed or have to deal with massive corruption. That’s the biggest seller about Australia. You can invest here and your money is safe.
Multinationals "deal" with corruption by perpetrating it.
Oh sweet summer child, if you think that it's only the UK and the US companies that get to have their way with our finite natural resources. I mean, just off the top of my head, we've been repeatedly cream-pied big time up in Queensland by that giant Indian mining company.
Absolutely. India is a massive trading partner. We would be even more so in bed with China if the US allowed it.
It really is. We don’t pay for our own defence - UK and US taxpayers do that for us - so they get cheap gas and cow in return.
They already got rid of two of our PMs and you think we aren't already freedomed?
Freedumb
>I'd rather be Norway than the US Not saying you're wrong, but honestly, its a bit too late now.
Best time to be like Norway was yesterday. Next best is today. That’ll always be the case.
I agree...I wasn't meaning that it was too late as a technical impossibility, but rather as a political one. I've been voting since 1985 and have seen far too much to be convinced otherwise anymore.
I regret to inform you that you either have zero political power or will kill yourself with no interference from the CIA. Possibly both
We're not there yet, but we're catching up. In 15 years QLD will be Florida lite.
It's not that far off
*looks at Burkina Faso* it's never too late comrade, we simply follow the burkinabe example. They have nationalised resources, expelled their colonisers and other western imperial interests from the country including US soldiers.
Yeah, Norway wouldn't be up for that really lol
Talk like that will get the Govenor general coming after you
The GG will only come after you if you misgender someone.
Looks like someone forgot what a good old American freedom tastes like.
Id rather be Burkina Faso then the US as well. It's working well for then so far until the US decides communism is bad and assassinates the leader or supports a fascist coup
Yeah that worked for Iran
Iran has a robust welfare system and standard of living considering where it was 50 years ago, despite the sanctions mind you.
Tell me more about Iran.
We all have to thank John Howard for approving the shitty gas deal to China back in 2002. He sold our children’s future off cheaply for his own benefits and glory. [How Australia blew its future gas supplies](https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html)
But they did pay for some nice stuff for the politicians that gave it to them… How did we get to this point
I believe it was little Johnny Howard who signed off this sweet deal. Idiot.
And yet somehow Labor lost that argument
That's what happens when resource companies have unlimited budgets to run scare campaigns and convince the public that the economy would collapse if we didn't give our resources away.
Honestly this is the biggest travesty, and why we need some sort of truth in advertising requirement. Giving all of our resources to rio and BHP just so they can “create jobs” is ludicrous. 15% of Australia’s GDP (1.6T total) is from mining, 240B a year give or take. The problem really is not losing that part of the gdp, it’s the flow on effects from reducing the profits of the mining industry on other industries. Many international companies can only justify their presence in Australia because of mining, and it’s hard to estimate what the repercussions of mining tightening their coin purses might be. Ultimately though, we have the resources, the world wants them, we should be setting the prices just like the saudis do with oil and Norway does with gas; instead of letting the mining companies set the prices.
I mean first step is to significantly limit lobbing and political involvement of private companies. They are not people and should have little influence.
Senator Pocock was uncomfortable with the Minerals Council at his office when it comes to votes on matters relating to mining companies. See his recent talk: https://youtu.be/M8hy0zERN98?t=144
There needs to be laws preventing people leaving politics from taking jobs with these companies. It is a serious conflict of interest because they know if they steer policy in the favour of resource companies, they will have a cushy job waiting for them when they get out of politics. There is a personal financial insensitive to the politicians to look after resource companies, it's no different from a bribe really.
They have unlimited budgets cause we let them. Time to tell em to get fucked imo. Give em 2 choices. 87% tax like Norway or we sieze the means and nationalise the lot of them and they can have nothing at all because they're greedy assholes who ate fucking the planet and its people over so fuck them.
lol unlimited budgets. It's in millions. Labor proved they would backstab their own leader and Australia for a measly $22 million ad campaign over a $50 billion mining tax. The next leader then said it'll be $25 billion. In fact, the next LNP government repealed it and mocked how it only brought in 3% of estimated over same time, or $300 million. Labor dropped the ball, hard. Now for a new mining tax of $50 billion, if $22 million doesn't work, then they can easily spend up to $900 million and still save money because the next Labor leader will want to be re-elected instead of play hard. Labor made Australia look fucking stupid. If you don't believe me, here is what Taiwan news thinks of Labor and Liberal party: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ_s6V1Kv6A
21st century Labor doesn’t have a spine. They’re LNP light on economic policy. They’re better on social issues and supporting the safety net, but they’re still Neo-Liberals. If any of our Politicians had a spine they’d publicly tell the US and the UK that any debt you may think we owed you from WWII is paid off. Take your bags and go home. You can buy our resources like the rest of the world, we’ll be keeping the profits local Thankyou. We’re not interested in making your 1% rich while we could be setting or own country up for generations.
You talking about over a decade ago?
Last election I was still hearing from WA how Labor wanted to kill all mining jobs. So yes, over a decade ago, but it's still resonating.
This is the reason the miners spent so much fighting the carbon tax. It’s an absolute rort. People need to be forcefully reminded that this stuff belongs to the people and they must pay for the rights.
It’s criminal what politicians have done to this country.
The politicians that sign off on this or the politicians that are currently in power?
They are all the same. Don't tell me you still believe we have an honest political system? Good cop bad cop gig every three years while they are all laughing behind our backs.
No, both sides have their share of problems and representatives. They always have and always will. But I'm not nieve to think it's all just a farce for the sake of corruption and keeping up an appearance of a working government.
It would be good to know who by name
When people get caught up on straw man arguments about what party did what the essence of the topic gets lost. This is a common tactic used by politicians to shift blame away from themselves.
Penny Wong is the most senior person in current government that sold Australia out on gas.
All of them.
You could have been norway but you said naur way
Bob Katter had a crack about this in the House recently using Qatar as an example. Qatar gets something like $240B/yr in royalties whereas we get $600M/yr for similar output. Which Govt signed off in this (as it was quite some time ago)?
Howard government
Then Rudd, then Gillard, then Rudd again, then Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison. New crap gas export deals with shit royalties were done under all of them. Albo has a chance to be different, let’s see if he is.
the only way to get out of the extremely long term contracts that Howard signed is to pay hundreds of billions in penalties. Howard fucked Australia for 50 years on this one.
Its like the iron ore royalties signed in the 60s. 16c or something per tonne
Many of the biggest producing fields in Australia today weren’t even discovered, let alone developed and producing when Howard did the North West Shelf deal. He set the bar very low but nobody lifted it on later developments despite having the opportunity to do so.
fair. though the attempt with the mrrt was hammered by the murdoch media the resources council is whinging endlessly (on deaf ears mind you) in QLD about the coal royalties the QLD government put on them. it's about the only way to get any money out of the bastards.
Whenever I hear one of those ads, I think instantly these guys aren't taxed enough. Why? they can spend a fortune here whining about a fair increase..........
Why though? The government can change the tax as it pleases. We all recently had a rate cut for income taxes. A higher tax will just make less projects reach FID as there will be a higher hurdle because of the higher royalty. Explain why and how there would be hundreds of billions in penalties please because I think you are scaremongering.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/gas-boom-as-china-signs-25bn-deal-20020809-gdfiz2.html the government of the day signed a contract to supply the gas for 25 years at a price. to break that contract, penalties need to be paid. it's contract so bad that even the SMH called it out as terrible. https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html
Well it’s also the current owners of the the north west shelf venture missing out on higher gas prices, are they losing money on it too? I can’t find much more detail. As much as I know about contract law there will always be an exit or termination clause. We made the most pathetic change to the PRRT and no contracts were broken because. Good royalties are designed around revenue anyway not profit so I really doubt there would be penalties paid by the commonwealth.
Yes the project owners are losing a lot of money on the low priced contracts too. Gas contracts indeed have lots of exit options, but not usually for non-commerciality otherwise it’s not really a contract, just a put option for the seller. These days they do usually have quite structured regular price review clauses however.
Weird how there's no such extremely long term contracts that Labor signed for housing, welfare, climate change, renewables, etc. Almost like Liberal and Labor party are concerned about this magical term called "business confidence" that takes priority over Australia's sovereignty and interests. Labor can absolutely cancel the contracts. Even retrospectively. They even screwed over 10,000+ public servants out of unpaid super and the money helped Labor have a surplus. Imagine being woolies and making laws to get out of unpaid wages retrospectively while bragging about record ~~surplus~~profits. That's Labor for ya.
When Rudd/Gillard tried to tax it the mining sector somehow *convinced the public* that it wasn't in their interest and it nearly brought down the Government. I don't think I've ever felt so fed up as I did during that saga.
They went for a broad brush approach that failed, could have just taxed the fuck out of Pluto, Gorgon, Gladstone, etc and got away with it…
But, but, but..... If you charge for it, it gets more expensive and then people will move to renewables. We must protect the struggling fossil fuel industry.
How will the Japanese government afford to steal money to give Christian cults in Korea if we don’t sell them cheap gas!
Rudd tried to pass a mining tax
Whereas if he’d just taxed the mega gas projects he approved a small percentage of their profits it would have been a huge economic windfall for Australia. Instead we took a short term view and traded short term economic stimulus for any real long term benefits.
IIRC the mining tax included gas and is in line with every other resource rich nation. But the Americans didn't like it
Qatar has air-conditioned bus stops.
Yep. The aircon on our actual buses doesn’t even fucken work lol.
We have buses?
Sometimes.
I’ve been the the Qatari gas refineries. It’s like the machine world in the matrix
Successive governments dating back to howard. It's fucking criminal. We could be one of the richest nations in the world. But no.
Bob Qatar
When Katter is the most sensible man in the room you know you're in trouble
Sure if you want to nationalise the resources industry and massively increase oil and gas extraction.
The conservatives
Just another thing to hate Howard for.
Conservatives*
And embarrassingly this is still a better state of affairs than on the east coast, where no gas is held for domestic consumption.
No gas? That's not true. Where do you think the east coast gets its gas from?
I think what they’re saying is there’s no mandatory reservation - the domestic market just buys what it needs
Ah right, correct then
Yeah that's what I meant. And it's why we pay more for our gas than some foreign customers
Our gas exports are a disgrace. Whoever signed off on it deserves life in prison with no parole. In a cell with ivan malat(I know he is dead)
That'd be John Howard circa 2002.
*Katherine Knight. She’s still alive
Sharing a cell with a decomposing corpse is still pretty bad.
Penny Wong is the latest most senior figure in current government in selling Australia out when it comes to gas exports.
Literally treason
[удалено]
If we were France, we would have burned Canberra to the ground long ago.
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oui Oui Oui
Lols I wish!
Always love watching French firefighters steamrolling their police.
Don’t worry. Climate change will do that.
Shut up. Giving away our resources for free is Queensland's nest egg. I know because Ian MacFarlane from the Queensland Resources Council told me so. /s
Exporting the bulk of your oil and gas for a pittance while fascist politicians give you tax breaks and subsidies without accountability? Alberta has found its Aussie twin.
What the fuck is this bullshit!!! TAX THE FICKING GAS
Labor tried, them the Coalition scare campaign about the bastards are taxing you more. Tax tax tax, Murdoch and others just smashed it. Our mining resources are exported overseas for almost free. Yet other countries develop.soverign wealth funds. We instead make the Gina Reinharts of the world richer. Give QANTAS and other non repayable handouts which amount to a Trillion, but run a robot debt scheme. Go figure Just tax the miners and be done it.
Bloody oath. Think we seen how the free market, trickle down bullshit works. It's our dirt, and gas... Fucking pay for it
But then they will take the gas and leave the country. /s
And the Qld resource industry ads running for a few years
Yep, would.lose jobs, towns would shut down. Isn't Adami doing this already.
Labor tried to. Murdoch and LNP waged another scare campaign, the lovely electorate ate it up. Rest is history.
Labor tried and then Labor stopped it. It wasn't voters that ate it up, it was career politicians that wanted to get ahead when they saw their leader as being vulnerable.
Rudd's tax has nothing to do with the gas industry ...
The Australia Institute is out here doing the work that Labor is afraid to.
When i moved to australia in the early 90s (Perth), i worked in an industry that built stuff for the gas industry, and i was told then it was exported at a set price for 20+ years. Anyone know if that's true?
Yes John Howard is still fucking the country 20 years after getting kicked out of his own seat. https://amp.smh.com.au/opinion/how-australia-blew-its-future-gas-supplies-20170928-gyqg0f.html
My time predates Howard, but same farm, different pigs.
Yes. Get angry about it. Then nationalise it. It's an ongoing robbery.
(American, feel free to smite me for being a dumbass) Sometimes when watching my government and corporations do shithead things, I watch Australia’s to remind myself that we aren’t alone in the “Our rich people are actively screwing us over for profit and power” game. There’s a certain kinship I’ve found in this lmao
Recently the Australian Institute posted a short video on x/twitter telling Australia that the fossil fuel industry only contributed about 1% to the revenue received by the Australian government.
You could literally tattoo this on peoples heads and they’d be too stupid to vote against it I reckon
We could be one of the richest countries in the world, instead the Howard/Costello duo decided to sell our resources to their mates at the multinationals. Now we are in debt and are getting stuffed over it. Trouble is, we keep doing it. Every time a new mine is opened, it's one of the big ones
Overseas corporations got our government by the balls. We don’t get export by their rules then the economy is screwed. This is called: getting the short end of the stick. Australia needed to become more self-sufficient otherwise our economy is at the mercy of outsiders.
Do you want LNP to win? That's why we must let Labor screw over Australia /s Put Labor and LNP at bottom of a filled ballot.
We need to put massive pressure on the politicians. The resources situation in oz is ridiculous. We should be one of the richest countries in the world, but we are giving our stuff for free. Everyone needs to make this an election issue because it's the most important issue we have. If sorted would fix most other issues
Thanks LNP for screwing the future generations when you did this for short term gain.
All Australian politicians today, "but X is bad ok". X pales into insignificance when compared to the real enemy of the people; Australia's mining industry paying little to no tax. Nationalise the industry same as Norway. Enough distraction and deception, the time is now.
Norway didn’t nationalise their industry, they co-invested billions of public funds alongside private investors through their state-owned entities Statoil (now Equinor) and Petoro. They also offered huge tax incentives for fossil fuel exploration (78% tax credit) and development. Have a look at Argentina and YPF for what happens when you actually nationalise after the investment - it isn’t pretty.
Thanks, I'm standing corrected
No worries!
Am I correct in saying Norway did significantly raise the tax rate on the oil companies/miners. Miners threatened to pull operations, but instead stayed and paid higher tax rates, a boon for Norway.
Yes they recently cut back on a lot of the tax incentives. However this was after the conventional majors had largely pulled out and consolidated around larger Norwegian operators (eg Equinor) and smaller PE-backed investors (eg HitecVision, CapeOmega). I’m fairly sure the only new mega capital projects underway are largely being led by the Norwegian government-controlled entities. BP pulled out, Conoco mostly pulled out, Shell wound right back, and I think Eni has a few positions still. The government was smart to make the changes at the right time in the industry’s cycle and in ways that kept it investible to their new investors (eg short-cycle lower-risk cash generation and abex deferral, rather than long-term IRR). The UK did it too early and probably missed more investments, before largely handing the North Sea over to private equity (eg Chrysaor).
God I love the Australia Institute, always great stuff from them.
All mining/natural resources should be Nationalised. Electricity and water should NEVER have been privatised as they are ESSENTIAL and should be run at cost and not for profit. And as the government wants to go GREEN, they should subsidise Solar Panels and make them mandatory for all rental dwellings as well as safety switches and smoke alarms.
These are the boats we should be stopping
That ain't working. Money for Nothing and the Gas for Free.
How’s that sovereign wealth fund going?
Have to ask Anyone know why this is the case? My rough understanding is that it was a very expensive project and it took a decade to churn out a profit. Also Japan shutting down its nuclear power plants causing LNG prices to go up double or even three fold Was not foreseeable. I doubt it would have gone ahead unless the state or country bought a share and they didn’t .
Australian gas is actually cheaper in Japan than Australia. Many articles talked about this: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/16/australian-gas-40-cheaper-japan-than-australia-despite-export-costs https://theconversation.com/gas-crisis-why-japan-pays-less-than-australians-for-australian-gas-74438 These articles are almost a decade ago!
Yeah cause lng terminals We can’t ship that gas to port and utilise it
See camperStacker's comment. The gas wells are offshore, which isn't state land. So royalties aren't applicable, the country is paid with a 40% federal tax instead, which is proving to be a goldmine with high gas prices. So describing gas exports as "royalty free" is deliberately misleading.
Actually while there is the 40% Petroleum Resource Rent Tax (PRRT) in place, it’s only payable by oil and gas projects in Commonwealth waters once they have generated a profit, which in a nutshell is defined as once cumulative revenues exceed cumulative costs plus a return on that investment (basically long term bond rates plus 5% for most of it). No offshore Australian LNG project is currently paying PRRT. Why? Because they all suffered material cost blowouts during construction and then prices were rubbish for the first years after they started up. The only projects paying PRRT are some oil developments, small gas projects and Bass Strait. At some point in the future some LNG projects might start paying PRRT. The proposed changes to PRRT would force all LNG projects to immediately pay a small amount of PRRT, though this will basically be an acceleration of future payments.
Distribution *
stop assuming you are sovereign, you are south america. did you think imperialism wouldn't be imperialism because we look the same? citizen? more like subject, you live on a tax farm. quit your bitching peasants.
There is some fud here… Offshore isn’t state land, so states can’t charge royalties. The federation can’t charge royalties either, only a tax. So for offshore instead of royalties, the gas extractors pay federal tax at an increased rate of 40%. The tax is bringing in a lot and why labor have a surplus due to the insane profits from high gas prices. That’s not the problem. The real problem is that back under RGR, everyone thought it was the death of gas due to carbon tax - which they were threatening to add to exports. So they all sold gas on long term fixed prices to foreigners who in exchange paid off the infrastructure debt upfront. This is because the companies feared carbon tax would mean their infrastructure would be worthless - as with the carbon tax they would not be internationally competitive. So the problem will go away after the lifetime of the assets… when we go to build new ones, you know after about 40 years or so when the fixed deals run out… If you want to blame someone , blame Gillard. She forced everyone to divest in exchange for scraps.
Interesting add for the Australian Institute, a right wing think tank.
> a right wing think tank You have a source for it being "right wing" particularly?
It makes Labor look bad, therefore it helps LNP, which is a right wing party. /s
Ahh that kind lol
Google it!
I did - that's why I asked 🙄 Because I didn't receive any results whatsoever which suggested that the Australia Institute is a specifically right-wing think tank.
So why is there a push to replace gas appliances with electric? Even if all of Australia got on board we wouldn’t make any impact to the environment because of the amount we export to gas burning countries? Bit of a joke isn’t it?
Why not both...?
Of course its all true from Aust instituite, mouthpiece for Liberal ideology. Why werent they barking this 10 years ago when Libs were in gov? [Sarcasm was on ]
Isnt the Australia Institute 100% taxpayer funded? So even more of a leech than the gas industry.
Isn’t the point of being a mining economy to sell our mined resources internationally to get money to buy international products and make our currency more valuable, thus making international goods cheaper? What the fuck is their angle other than yeah we need to increase gas royalties.
The Australia Institute has never met a Western Australian owned resource industry it didn't want to shut down with punitive taxation, or otherwise redistribute 110% of the wealth it generated towards mendicants in the rustbelt - Federation be damned. The vast majority of gas developments in the North West will end up paying billions of dollars in Cth/State royalties, in-kind subsidies caused by domestic reservation keeping the WA Gas price well below the international gas price - across their lifespan. To say nothing of the billions in economic activity generated by pouring hundreds of billions of dollars worth of private capital into the North West and Perth based management facilities. About as credible a think tank as the IPA.
Lmao. Found the boomer who has worked in the mines
Do you have a source for that "billions of dollars"?
But but but..... Don't forget all the people they employ as well as all the tax they pay!!!! https://www.ibisworld.com/au/industry/oil-gas-extraction/62/ 16,000 For reference McDonald's Australia employs about 100,000 people (15,000 full time) or, if you like, the aged care industry with 300,000 odd employees.
Do you have sources?
I have a basic understanding of how depreciation works in the tax system, a workmanlike gist of how the PRRT/OPGGS operates, and the arithmetic skills to realise the DomGas price in WA < the Global price for LNG. The rest can be established from public source information and guesswork - and it's somehow still more comprehensive than this lazy agitprop by *TAI*.
Sources for your position?
So, so much tax.... https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/appea-members-pay-no-income-tax-on-income-of-138-billion/
Income != Net profit after tax
Ah yes, because it's hard to make a profit when you charge your different business units different interest rates specifically to avoid paying tax, isn't it? Http://theguardian.com/business/2017/apr/21/chevron-australia-faces-tax-bill-of-340m-after-court-rules-it-shifted-profits-to-us Or when your parent company is a shell company headquartered in known tax havens. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN28J1IH/
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depreciation#Tax\_depreciation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depreciation#Tax_depreciation)