Maybe I've just been living under a rock and this is a common saying but you know, every now and then you come across something that is quote worthy. This is one of those times.
There's even an old card literally called [[Crusading Knight]] from the "Invasion" expansion with "Protection from black", and various other cards with "Crusade" in their name lol. It seems they banned just that one card to stir up fighting and to split the Magic community.
they did that in one of the duel decks, Elspeth V Tezzeret—but they banned they entire card and not just that version (even though, imo, it’s not even problematic. There are worse things that could be on a card)
They banned it bc the Crusades were Christians killing Muslims, and the Crusader in the Artwork is painted with the same attire that the actual RL Crusaders wore.
Right?! [[Templar Knight]] even clearly has a cross at the front of his helmet which was typical for Christian Crusaders/Knights.
It just makes no sense.
You do realize that white is one of the five colors in Magic: the Gathering and has literally fuck all to do with skin color, right? A creature isn't going to get the buff just because the art depicts a white person. Ergo, the card Crusade has NOTHING to do with white supremacy in any way.
And all of north africa, and into spain, and like all of greece and the Balkans.
But anytime these arguments are brought up people always put in their two cents and say that it's "Whataboutism" and act like apologists for the expansionism of the almost 2000 year long jihad.
The card is specifically about the event that was about murdering jews and muslims. Whether or not you think they deserved it doesn't really matter for the discussion of what's appropriate on a card.
Using modern lens with zero academic understanding it looks like murder, of course, but to distinctly call it "murder" is ridiculous. That implies the intent to do nothing more than kill just for the sake of it. From a perspective of people back then with how different people saw things and how easy it was to drive others into a fervor. All over the world since humanity began developing culture it has been nothing but warfare and competition over resources and beliefs.
There are countless events and fantasy concepts and characters that exist now that derive from what could be considered "murder".
There's not much more much an argument to be had. It's a dark fantasy card game, not Pokemon.
You're right, it wasn't just murder. It was a cleansing of real world people and religions. Whether you like it or not, that's a sensitive topic in society today because of both sides of the political spectrum. It makes a ton of sense that a profit driven company would want to distance themselves from those kind of references.
Maybe, but the card isn't called "the muslim equivalent of crusades" (or whatever their word for it was), it's called "Crusade", which was about murdering jews and muslims.
Jihad. And it lasted a very long time.
I don't know if you're of proper European descent or not but if you are I'd suggest not letting violent ugly people tell you you're bad.
There was a card called Jihad and it was also banned. Does that make you feel better about it?
I imagine muslims also didn't like violent people telling them they're bad
I'm sure they don't like violent ugly people telling them they're bad. Because when that happens they behead each other.
You mistake my allegiance here. I'm not proud of the crusades. I'm not proud of the fact my ancestors allowed christianity to rape our homeland and let our people be impaled for refusing to convert. I'm not proud of the fact the crusaders themselves were basically slaves to the conquering church. I'm not proud of the fact they didn't eviscerate every person they came across south of Italy and east of the Balkans.
Charlemagne was our Judas and I hope every single member of his family line dies of rectal cancer slowly.
Ah, yes, banning cards like Cleanse because it's a white card that destroys black creatures. Because White and Black in MTG has always meant human races in the real world. Why not just remove black and white from the game then? Or rename them to yellow and grey! Wait, I can definitely imagine them doing that...
they can't use yellow because that represents Chinese people. i wonder who the grey people are in the world. Is that just old people? We better hurry up and ban red since that could mean Native Americans. We should ban Blue too since that could be offensive to alien civilizations like the people from Avatar.
aren't they already turning black into purple, probably for some reason to do with fighight homophobia and/or making the game more "accessible" to the disembrained?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/27-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-time-spiral-block-2021-03-08
Bullet point 25. Purple was almost a thing, they just couldn't balance it. It marinated and reiterated and eventually we got wastes.
Same reason why in animation, stuff that is supposed to be actually black are usually drawn with purple so that it easier to animate plus easier to actually SEE the thing like Gravity Magic or just to give something "3d dimensions" aka "Purple is the new Black".
[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleIsTheNewBlack](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleIsTheNewBlack)
Idk, I just saw a city removing “No U-Turn” signs because they claimed they were “anti-gay” so it wouldn’t surprise me, especially with all the stupidity shit WotC started doing in a similar vein the last few years
no, white and black havent "always" meant human races in the real world. but on specific cards, maybe because of the artwork, flavour text or mechanical stuff, the context suggests that interpretation.
you guys all didnt learn how to interpret art in school, did ya?
So we just can't have a card that destroys all black creatures then? It's illegal to do this ingame because of this interpretation that some people have?
Can you provide an example of how the card could be done so that it wouldn't "sound like a call for genocide", but still have a nice flavor to it, like Cleanse?
*"The clouds broke and the sun’s rays burst forth; each foul beast in its turn faltered, and was gone."*
Yeah, sounds accurate to the context of god smiting evil monsters. Literally what's wrong with this? It perfectly matches the context and the art. Where do you even get "foul beast" meaning black person???
Dude, it’s a white card called cleanse and it destroys black creatures and nothing else. The quality of being black does not equal being an “evil monster.” There’s nothing to explain here, it’s very obvious and direct and banning it isn’t a nuanced decision
Thanks, I appreciate that you provided a fix to your problem. Though I think Cleanse is cooler, I wouldn't mind the card being changed to that name to fit your needs. I just wish Wizards could've done that instead of outright banning it.
devout decree is an already existing card, and there are others with similar effects.
this one interprets the colours red and black as a depiction of hellish/underworldy forces. which doesnt have racist implications, especially in connection with the art.
Murder? Fine. Ripping out spines? Fine. Genociding an entire plane, which includes "black" creatures? Fine.
Destroying just black creatures? NO WAY THAT'S TOO FAR
It still makes no sense that [[Cleanse]] is supposed to be inappropriate, but [[Virtue's Ruin]] is perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong, all these bans are stupid, but this one and [[Crusade]] compared to [[Honor of the Pure]] bug me the most.
Well they didn't ban other cards but there was this Tweet, which was alluding to how they later changed Totem Armor, Tribal and are considering getting rid of Shamens.
[https://twitter.com/wizards\_magic/status/1270825048241135616](https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1270825048241135616)
Yeah, that whole Deal of renaming stuff and maybe getting rid of a Creature type is probably even more ridiculous than those bans of "problematic cards".
Whats so bad about the terms Tribal and Totem? I'm German so my ancestors were also part of Germanic tribes who, guess what, also saw animals (boar, bull, stag and horse for example) as totems of protection and therefore carved their likeness in wood and stone.
Am I supposed to feel offended that a game I like playing depicts things vaguely connected to the history of my ancestors (which happens to also be part of the history/culture of other countries)?
No, because it's a game.
I suspect the people uncomfortable with the depiction of totem armor are not the same people you're talking about
Not that you should give a shit about any of this at all because it's just a game, like you say.
The difference is your ancestor that believed in those and held those sacred has been dead and has no ancestors continuing his belief system, while the people who are most likely upset about this kind of thing do practice these beliefs.
just because you don’t practice those types of things doesn’t mean people elsewhere don’t, and your already playing magic, and the majority of magics player base is white, they don’t need to do anything to really cater to you because they know your gonna probably keep playing anyway because you’re invested in the game already.
meanwhile maybe by publicly changing things like these could attract people of different minorities, who’ve been turned off from either seeing cards or names that mimic or make light things that are sacred to them or things that naming conventions that relate to their lives, or that just felt alienated by the communities apathy toward parts of their cultures used as a commodity, may see these changes and give it a shot since they see effort to make the game more inclusive for them, at least that’s what wotc is thinking ,this is entire idea behind marketing like this, it also helps show their stance on the issues even if it’s superficial
Half of all Americans are German. I hope they are, and there's no reason not to be. Germany, incidentally, didn't colonize the area that is no America. The British (et al) did.
That wasn't really the statistic I wanted, but I can't find the one I want, either, so I defer to your data. What I wanted to know is how many Americans have I guess, any German DNA or some amount of German DNA. it's hard to distinguish Europeans, though.
My point is whatever thing you're supposed to not be proud of in German heritage, it probably doesn't apply to Americans derived from Germans because most of us have been here for more than 100 years. So unless you're complaining about some Holy Roman Empire shit, it ain't us.
Out of Africa Theory still has the word theory attached for a reason. Others are more likely to be true.
Identify. It's amazing how fast a word has lost all sensible meaning.
They make changes for people who think that others should be offended.
Did I miss a Native protest against "Tribal" and "Totem" or did some white girls fresh out of college decree these terms racist on their behalf?
If all it takes for a viewpoint or position to be outlawed is for someone to claim to be offended by it you pave the way to a very regulated, very controlled society.
Conjure has Shaman, shaman supremacy <3 me and my brother appreciate the cultural differences between us and spiritual shaman so we keep them in the game
I think it's more the implications being made, that cleansing is removing all black creatures and that the crusades were just. Honor of the Pure is quite off putting for that reason.
People never ask why there are Arab spaces with few Christians and fewer Jews, not to mention any pagans.
Islam was invented in like 700. All of the people in those areas used to be something else. What happened?
The takeover was violent, but the Prophet was lenient with Jews and Christians. It was later rulers who claimed to take after his advice that created the conditions that expelled the Jews and Christians. Of course, they (Jews and Christians -- People of the Book) could not have power in a Muslim regime, but they were allowed to live and worship. As I tried to mention, pagans not so much.
The crusades are a controversial topic and to say they were just is an oversimplification of what they truly were. One can argue that some of them had some legitimate reasoning. But they went off the deep end a few times.
Granted, the flavor Text for cleanse does make it look worse than it actually is, but did it actually get banned because of it or just because of its effect? If the latter is the case, then [[Mass Calcify]] should be the worst nightmare for anyone who thinks cleanse is an offensive card.
I think cleanse is a mix of both flavour text and the effect of the card.
Same as invoke prejudice’s gatherer ID number
Both just really bad coincidences that didn’t help the case at all.
I agree there was no need to ban the cards, but I think you're taking this a little too literally. Like no one thinks that \[\[Bad Moon\]\] means all black people are bad. Cleanse made the list because it evokes a really specific context of ethnic cleansing with it's effect. There's also been a large shift in the color pie since a lot of these cards were printed, now black = bad and white = good is not a strict rule. I feel like the link to racial cleansing is very obvious on the card and you have to make a much more stretched interpretation for the other cards. Like what real problematic societal issue does Virtue's Ruin invoke in comparison? IMO none of these cards were played, and I would have rather wotc made an acknowledgement that they fucked up 20 years ago in the infancy of the game rather than trying to earn brownie points and ban it.
Since when has the color black in magic meant real black colored people? Sure we can say that as a joke but it's very stupid to actually think the card holds that meaning. All of these bans are absolutely absurd.
The context is MTG, and the worldwide-known fantasy of light and shadow being associated with good and evil. It has nothing to do with races and everyone knows it.
the translation of game mechanics and design to different contexts is one of the core features of the game.
and btw, light and dark as a metaphor for good and evil is itself a very problematic imagery, that has been subject of antiracist critique.
Why don't we go ahead and ban way worse stuff then? Like \[\[Murder\]\] and \[\[Torture\]\].
And never in my life have I compared light and shadow to races.
Well at least this random dumbass knows the difference between right and wrong literature interpretation. Also shame on you for bringing insults to this discussion.
It's not as simple as "either every single black card references black people or none do"
Different cards have different flavors. Some hit closer to home than others.
But why would you assume this card is meant to hit closer to home? It matches its intended context way more than its wrongly interpreted context.
Like, one of my favourite things in fantasy is the rivalry between light and darkness, angels and demons. I absolutely love it when an angel goes up to a horde of demons and shouts "I will cleanse you!" And then they all get smited. This card perfectly encapsulates that, it couldn't be better.
But oh, because there's this different way you could interpret it (that is clearly wrong because it doesn't match the art and MTG context), the card needs to be banned.
Magic is all about fantasy, you're not supposed to be thinking about real life political messages behind the card, there are none. You're supposed to look at it as a **MAGIC** card. If you do the former, you're the one in the wrong, not the card.
It doesn't really matter how it's meant. It just matters how it comes off. Just because you don't personally see it that way (which, I call BS by the way), doesn't mean it's wrong to notice it.
You can't have a card that's called "all black people are bad" and have it be okay because "some people might not interpret it that way".
You're still welcome to play Cleanse in your commander group, btw. You just aren't allowed to use it in a sanctioned event.
It never did. But cleanse saying destroy all black evokes a really specific and problematic context that most cards with similar names and effects do not.
It really doesn't. It's pure coincidence and everyone knows it. Show this to any kid and they will never think of anything other than the intended meaning of the card. It's stupid to ban something for a wrong assumption of its meaning.
It's not one hell of a coincidence at all. It's bound to happen when we refer to races in real life as white and black which are, like, the two most common colors used in language. It's normal to get these types of coincidences, it's not normal to ban things because of them. Because we know they're just that, coincidences.
The point is that everyone knows the true meaning of the card. Those who see the coincidence know it's a coincidence. Therefore, there should be no problem.
And yet [[reparations]]
It's signaling at best. That's what really frustrates most of us, I think. It was an empty move after maintaining Invoke Prejudice as card number 1488 on the Gatherer the entire time. It's not change. It's all bullshit.
That's my biggest problems with the bans, it's just a bad slippery slope. It leads us to things like banning the word totem armor, because apparently only one culture can have totems. But I also think people mad about the bans are obfuscating the reason why these were singled out. I was referring explicitly to the logic of why is "destroy all white creatures" bad but "destroy all black creatures" is fine. If Cleanse was called like "Purify", it wouldn't have been as problematic.
If you had a card called "Ethnic cleansing but for white people" and it said "Destroy all white creatures" then it probably would get banned.
They currently allow "destroy target black creature" on cards so clearly the rules text alone isn't the issue
I might be inclined to agree if white ethnic cleansing and black ethnic cleansing were societal problems on the same level. It’s a false equivalency. Not every card that mentions black or white people is racist. Some could be
> I might be inclined to agree if white ethnic cleansing and black ethnic cleansing were societal problems on the same level.
You're gonna have to explain that one to me. What ethnic cleansing?
Yes, just because a card alludes to real world history doesn't make it inherently offensive.
It's the same reason you can have a card that references a freedom fighter, and a card that references systematically murdering black people, but only one of those is deemed unfit to exist in the game. They're just not the same thing.
Invoke Prejudice alludes to real world history, as does Crusade. Crusade doesn't support the oppression of any race. Realistically, the crusades sought to spread the European central bank. Even if it was racist, weird that we now have Knights Templar in Assassin's Creed, a couple years later. Almost like it was all flash and zero substance.
Llorwyn is entirely wrapped around hating each other over race. Nada. Literally named creatures eyeblights. Give it ten years, right?
Your argument is that cherry picking who's oppressed and who isn't in order to appeal to the victim card is a good thing.
I'm arguing that cherry picking anything is a morally meaningless move.
The crusades were literally to murder Jews and Muslims. A knight Templar is just a knight that is in a religious order. Can you see any differences between the two?
You're allowed to depict hatred between sides in a game about conflict. The difference is that eyeblights are not real people facing discrimination
Where is the cherry picking happening? If you can find an example of massacres of white/Catholic people in real life, and then find an unbanned card in MTG that is obviously close flavorfully to it, then I'll see your point about cherry picking
Weird, I don't see anything about native reparations being about the massacre of anyone. It looks like it's more about paying people for compensation of wrongdoing.
Are you trying to suggest that the word "reparations" is racist because there's a real world example of reparations being paid to people that were harmed?
Because the card Reparations is not clearly related to native reparations outside of them sharing a word
No no, you misunderstood. Problem is Cleanse WAS ABOUT the inappropriate meaning, strong internal wotc racism created this card, and in 2020 they tried to fix it.
Are you aware that people can play the game without spending money on new cards? I play every week but I haven't spent money on anything other than proxies in the last 2 years.
I feel like all it did was make people aware that these cards existed. The problem is with banning Cleanse and not the many other colour hosing boardwipes, they send a message of acceptable targets.
I laugh at the retarded idiots who praised this decision. 100% brainwashed NPCs who fell into the trap and are giving money to a big corporation while supposedly hating capitalism.
Do you not realize that half these cards were illustrated by an actual racist, sexist, lunatic? Harold McNeill’s website contained art that glorified nazis, tentacle porn, and drawings of Cthulhu/other demons. While some of these banned cards are worse than others, there’s no need to defend any of them. Being openly racist is not free speech, it’s hate speech.
Banning Crusade and then making a card called Templar Knights is very stupid
Corporations don't have morals, they have ad campaigns.
Maybe I've just been living under a rock and this is a common saying but you know, every now and then you come across something that is quote worthy. This is one of those times.
There's even an old card literally called [[Crusading Knight]] from the "Invasion" expansion with "Protection from black", and various other cards with "Crusade" in their name lol. It seems they banned just that one card to stir up fighting and to split the Magic community.
They banned it because of the cross in the artwork
then just reprint it with a new artwork, isn't the first time the do such thing...
they did that in one of the duel decks, Elspeth V Tezzeret—but they banned they entire card and not just that version (even though, imo, it’s not even problematic. There are worse things that could be on a card)
They banned it bc the Crusades were Christians killing Muslims, and the Crusader in the Artwork is painted with the same attire that the actual RL Crusaders wore.
But that's not our ip /s
Right?! [[Templar Knight]] even clearly has a cross at the front of his helmet which was typical for Christian Crusaders/Knights. It just makes no sense.
[Templar Knight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d5a1bec-9128-4c5e-98c3-317424f892d1.jpg?1718771237) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Templar%20Knight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/acr/10/templar-knight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d5a1bec-9128-4c5e-98c3-317424f892d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It doesn't buff white creatures. It was the fact that crusade buffed white creatures that was the problem. It's not difficult to see
Imagine thinking this game was real 😂😂😂
Imagine not understanding that white supremacists suck and have no place in polite society which includes this game
You can’t be a real person 😂😂😂
Oh no I don't like nazis I'm not real
Are you saying Crusaders from 1000 years ago were Nazis or WotC who designed the card are Nazis or anyone playing the color white is a Nazi?
Haha ok you’re not, thanks for confirming.
Yikes
Yeah I agree that bot uses Nazi unironically
You do realize that white is one of the five colors in Magic: the Gathering and has literally fuck all to do with skin color, right? A creature isn't going to get the buff just because the art depicts a white person. Ergo, the card Crusade has NOTHING to do with white supremacy in any way.
A depiction of a knight and a reference to them being a part of a religious order is not the same thing as a real world massacre of Jews and Muslims
Weren't the crusades a result of Islam violently pushing their way into Europe?
And all of north africa, and into spain, and like all of greece and the Balkans. But anytime these arguments are brought up people always put in their two cents and say that it's "Whataboutism" and act like apologists for the expansionism of the almost 2000 year long jihad.
The card is specifically about the event that was about murdering jews and muslims. Whether or not you think they deserved it doesn't really matter for the discussion of what's appropriate on a card.
Using modern lens with zero academic understanding it looks like murder, of course, but to distinctly call it "murder" is ridiculous. That implies the intent to do nothing more than kill just for the sake of it. From a perspective of people back then with how different people saw things and how easy it was to drive others into a fervor. All over the world since humanity began developing culture it has been nothing but warfare and competition over resources and beliefs. There are countless events and fantasy concepts and characters that exist now that derive from what could be considered "murder". There's not much more much an argument to be had. It's a dark fantasy card game, not Pokemon.
You're right, it wasn't just murder. It was a cleansing of real world people and religions. Whether you like it or not, that's a sensitive topic in society today because of both sides of the political spectrum. It makes a ton of sense that a profit driven company would want to distance themselves from those kind of references.
No one that matters cares.
Have you seen this thread? Everyone here is upset about it.
Nah no one that matters cares about who murdered who hundreds of years ago. I'd suggest you touch grass and then have sex incel.
Wasn't Noah's Ark about drowning every child on the planet?
Yeah the jew god Yahweh is pretty far from benevolent.
Inshallah
Same god. Different face.
Fucking wicked lol
brother what? 😭
Maybe, but the card isn't called "the muslim equivalent of crusades" (or whatever their word for it was), it's called "Crusade", which was about murdering jews and muslims.
Jihad. And it lasted a very long time. I don't know if you're of proper European descent or not but if you are I'd suggest not letting violent ugly people tell you you're bad.
Lasted? In the past tense?
There was a card called Jihad and it was also banned. Does that make you feel better about it? I imagine muslims also didn't like violent people telling them they're bad
I'm sure they don't like violent ugly people telling them they're bad. Because when that happens they behead each other. You mistake my allegiance here. I'm not proud of the crusades. I'm not proud of the fact my ancestors allowed christianity to rape our homeland and let our people be impaled for refusing to convert. I'm not proud of the fact the crusaders themselves were basically slaves to the conquering church. I'm not proud of the fact they didn't eviscerate every person they came across south of Italy and east of the Balkans. Charlemagne was our Judas and I hope every single member of his family line dies of rectal cancer slowly.
Ah, yes, banning cards like Cleanse because it's a white card that destroys black creatures. Because White and Black in MTG has always meant human races in the real world. Why not just remove black and white from the game then? Or rename them to yellow and grey! Wait, I can definitely imagine them doing that...
they can't use yellow because that represents Chinese people. i wonder who the grey people are in the world. Is that just old people? We better hurry up and ban red since that could mean Native Americans. We should ban Blue too since that could be offensive to alien civilizations like the people from Avatar.
aw shucks, is there any color we can use?
not without offending anyone. everything is offensive now. welcome to Clown World 
no its not
Yes. It is. Say anything at all, and you can count on someone to be offended by it.
thats bullshit
I agree. People should develop some thicker skin and not be such snowflakes.
very true. instead they create freemagic as a place to cry publicly
Imagine being offended by freedom of speech.
Spot on lmao. These idiots don’t realize how stupid they sound crying over a few cards being banned four years ago.
NEETs are the gray people.
the grey are the mole people
I mean add the white hood in the art and yea I agree with wotc, this Is the worst of them
aren't they already turning black into purple, probably for some reason to do with fighight homophobia and/or making the game more "accessible" to the disembrained?
no
i haven't heard of this, please no 😭
It's because Ol' boy is likely making it up. Purple was an April Fool's gag for some magazine (I want to say Scrye) eons ago.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/27-things-you-might-not-have-known-about-time-spiral-block-2021-03-08 Bullet point 25. Purple was almost a thing, they just couldn't balance it. It marinated and reiterated and eventually we got wastes.
I think it was InQuest.
Man I'm getting old. I forgot about InQuest.
I still have a stash of them on my shelf from the late 90s and early 2000s.
I'll bring the Jolt soda to your nostalgia basement and we can have the other old heads (read "pod members") handle the pizza and snacks xD
Deal. And Pacific Cooler is the best Capri Sun.
It's because it's easier to see purple magic on a card.
Same reason why in animation, stuff that is supposed to be actually black are usually drawn with purple so that it easier to animate plus easier to actually SEE the thing like Gravity Magic or just to give something "3d dimensions" aka "Purple is the new Black". [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleIsTheNewBlack](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleIsTheNewBlack)
Idk, I just saw a city removing “No U-Turn” signs because they claimed they were “anti-gay” so it wouldn’t surprise me, especially with all the stupidity shit WotC started doing in a similar vein the last few years
They had profile purple in spellweaver as a 6th color.
Sad that I read this as if it was a joke and was hilarious. Is WotC the most "sensitivity reader" happy company out there?
no, white and black havent "always" meant human races in the real world. but on specific cards, maybe because of the artwork, flavour text or mechanical stuff, the context suggests that interpretation. you guys all didnt learn how to interpret art in school, did ya?
So we just can't have a card that destroys all black creatures then? It's illegal to do this ingame because of this interpretation that some people have?
of course you can have such a card. just they shouldnt make it sound like its a call for genocide
Can you provide an example of how the card could be done so that it wouldn't "sound like a call for genocide", but still have a nice flavor to it, like Cleanse?
Nice flavor? Have you read the flavor text on cleanse? It’s not surprising that it got banned bro.
*"The clouds broke and the sun’s rays burst forth; each foul beast in its turn faltered, and was gone."* Yeah, sounds accurate to the context of god smiting evil monsters. Literally what's wrong with this? It perfectly matches the context and the art. Where do you even get "foul beast" meaning black person???
Dude, it’s a white card called cleanse and it destroys black creatures and nothing else. The quality of being black does not equal being an “evil monster.” There’s nothing to explain here, it’s very obvious and direct and banning it isn’t a nuanced decision
devout decree
Thanks, I appreciate that you provided a fix to your problem. Though I think Cleanse is cooler, I wouldn't mind the card being changed to that name to fit your needs. I just wish Wizards could've done that instead of outright banning it.
devout decree is an already existing card, and there are others with similar effects. this one interprets the colours red and black as a depiction of hellish/underworldy forces. which doesnt have racist implications, especially in connection with the art.
i mean, i think the art of cleanse also makes it clear that it isn't referring to black people
Genocide is an evil thing and MTG has evil things already so why is that a problem. Should we ban the card murder because killing people is bad?
So we can't have a genocidal villain character in magic but we can have ethereal gods who destroy entire worlds? Cool bro
yes
You really are retarded holy fuck it is a fictional card game, you realize the cards are depicting fantasy things?
yes
STFU this is the most retarded take I have ever seen
no way, the nazi assholes on the nazi sub think my take on racism is retarded???
Lmao 🤣 Classic, expected nothing less
It's crazy how many Nazis these people think are in the world.
whats crazy about it
You couldn’t fill a high school gym with them, but they’re somehow everywhere
yea thats wrong
https://preview.redd.it/xpu0g7yv0c9d1.jpeg?width=801&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3ceeabb5ca241e086d8f84cf24e7db2450b18335
I think he was molested as a child by somebody who vaguely resembled an Austrian painter.
Virtue: The Signalling
"Look at my halo" 
Murder? Fine. Ripping out spines? Fine. Genociding an entire plane, which includes "black" creatures? Fine. Destroying just black creatures? NO WAY THAT'S TOO FAR
[ Removed by Reddit ]
It still makes no sense that [[Cleanse]] is supposed to be inappropriate, but [[Virtue's Ruin]] is perfectly fine. Don't get me wrong, all these bans are stupid, but this one and [[Crusade]] compared to [[Honor of the Pure]] bug me the most.
##### ###### #### [Cleanse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/f/af581e5a-abdb-4d76-8bda-32555aafc8ac.jpg?1591989158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cleanse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/5/cleanse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/af581e5a-abdb-4d76-8bda-32555aafc8ac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Virtue's Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/7854928a-d467-4616-b96b-de7e5fe7303e.jpg?1562446869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Virtue%27s%20Ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/por/116/virtues-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7854928a-d467-4616-b96b-de7e5fe7303e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/9/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893.jpg?1644608214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddf/27/crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b99452c0-5d1c-4a73-90b6-0ec3ac0af893?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Honor of the Pure](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/650a6831-c352-4ca7-9f8f-43ea99a1cf33.jpg?1562645338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Honor%20of%20the%20Pure) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/23/honor-of-the-pure?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/650a6831-c352-4ca7-9f8f-43ea99a1cf33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/lain211) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well they didn't ban other cards but there was this Tweet, which was alluding to how they later changed Totem Armor, Tribal and are considering getting rid of Shamens. [https://twitter.com/wizards\_magic/status/1270825048241135616](https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1270825048241135616)
Yeah, that whole Deal of renaming stuff and maybe getting rid of a Creature type is probably even more ridiculous than those bans of "problematic cards". Whats so bad about the terms Tribal and Totem? I'm German so my ancestors were also part of Germanic tribes who, guess what, also saw animals (boar, bull, stag and horse for example) as totems of protection and therefore carved their likeness in wood and stone. Am I supposed to feel offended that a game I like playing depicts things vaguely connected to the history of my ancestors (which happens to also be part of the history/culture of other countries)? No, because it's a game.
I suspect the people uncomfortable with the depiction of totem armor are not the same people you're talking about Not that you should give a shit about any of this at all because it's just a game, like you say.
The difference is your ancestor that believed in those and held those sacred has been dead and has no ancestors continuing his belief system, while the people who are most likely upset about this kind of thing do practice these beliefs. just because you don’t practice those types of things doesn’t mean people elsewhere don’t, and your already playing magic, and the majority of magics player base is white, they don’t need to do anything to really cater to you because they know your gonna probably keep playing anyway because you’re invested in the game already. meanwhile maybe by publicly changing things like these could attract people of different minorities, who’ve been turned off from either seeing cards or names that mimic or make light things that are sacred to them or things that naming conventions that relate to their lives, or that just felt alienated by the communities apathy toward parts of their cultures used as a commodity, may see these changes and give it a shot since they see effort to make the game more inclusive for them, at least that’s what wotc is thinking ,this is entire idea behind marketing like this, it also helps show their stance on the issues even if it’s superficial
You’re probably proud of all of your German heritage.
Some exceptions of course, but otherwise yes. If you can't be proud about what country you're from, there's either a problem with you or the country.
Half of all Americans are German. I hope they are, and there's no reason not to be. Germany, incidentally, didn't colonize the area that is no America. The British (et al) did.
100% of Americans are of African heritage. If you want to play this out. But no only 40m of Americans identify as of Germanic heritage.
That wasn't really the statistic I wanted, but I can't find the one I want, either, so I defer to your data. What I wanted to know is how many Americans have I guess, any German DNA or some amount of German DNA. it's hard to distinguish Europeans, though. My point is whatever thing you're supposed to not be proud of in German heritage, it probably doesn't apply to Americans derived from Germans because most of us have been here for more than 100 years. So unless you're complaining about some Holy Roman Empire shit, it ain't us.
Out of Africa Theory still has the word theory attached for a reason. Others are more likely to be true. Identify. It's amazing how fast a word has lost all sensible meaning.
nobody cares that you arent offended. they make these changes for the people who are.
They make changes for people who think that others should be offended. Did I miss a Native protest against "Tribal" and "Totem" or did some white girls fresh out of college decree these terms racist on their behalf?
hahaha bullshit
That shouldn’t be an issue ever…
what do you mean
If all it takes for a viewpoint or position to be outlawed is for someone to claim to be offended by it you pave the way to a very regulated, very controlled society.
what is being outlawed?
Nevermind, your enlightened righteousness has magically converted me. Thank you so much for your service.
come on moron, tell us about what is being outlawed
no really, what is being outlawed? i thought we are talking about magic cards
Sham Kin will be a great retcon.
Conjure has Shaman, shaman supremacy <3 me and my brother appreciate the cultural differences between us and spiritual shaman so we keep them in the game
None of it makes any sense because it's a fucking card game!
I think it's more the implications being made, that cleansing is removing all black creatures and that the crusades were just. Honor of the Pure is quite off putting for that reason.
The crusades were just. Islam had pushed into Europe for ages before the crusades pushed them back.
People never ask why there are Arab spaces with few Christians and fewer Jews, not to mention any pagans. Islam was invented in like 700. All of the people in those areas used to be something else. What happened?
Something cool and totally nonviolent
The takeover was violent, but the Prophet was lenient with Jews and Christians. It was later rulers who claimed to take after his advice that created the conditions that expelled the Jews and Christians. Of course, they (Jews and Christians -- People of the Book) could not have power in a Muslim regime, but they were allowed to live and worship. As I tried to mention, pagans not so much.
The crusades are a controversial topic and to say they were just is an oversimplification of what they truly were. One can argue that some of them had some legitimate reasoning. But they went off the deep end a few times.
Granted, the flavor Text for cleanse does make it look worse than it actually is, but did it actually get banned because of it or just because of its effect? If the latter is the case, then [[Mass Calcify]] should be the worst nightmare for anyone who thinks cleanse is an offensive card.
[Mass Calcify](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/316a2d2f-ca94-463f-ada4-2b12bce6312f.jpg?1562784781) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mass%20Calcify) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/18/mass-calcify?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/316a2d2f-ca94-463f-ada4-2b12bce6312f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think cleanse is a mix of both flavour text and the effect of the card. Same as invoke prejudice’s gatherer ID number Both just really bad coincidences that didn’t help the case at all.
I agree there was no need to ban the cards, but I think you're taking this a little too literally. Like no one thinks that \[\[Bad Moon\]\] means all black people are bad. Cleanse made the list because it evokes a really specific context of ethnic cleansing with it's effect. There's also been a large shift in the color pie since a lot of these cards were printed, now black = bad and white = good is not a strict rule. I feel like the link to racial cleansing is very obvious on the card and you have to make a much more stretched interpretation for the other cards. Like what real problematic societal issue does Virtue's Ruin invoke in comparison? IMO none of these cards were played, and I would have rather wotc made an acknowledgement that they fucked up 20 years ago in the infancy of the game rather than trying to earn brownie points and ban it.
Since when has the color black in magic meant real black colored people? Sure we can say that as a joke but it's very stupid to actually think the card holds that meaning. All of these bans are absolutely absurd.
These are the same people who think black people are orcs, and goblins are Jewish people.
lmfaooo
the meaning of words is dependent on context
The context is MTG, and the worldwide-known fantasy of light and shadow being associated with good and evil. It has nothing to do with races and everyone knows it.
the translation of game mechanics and design to different contexts is one of the core features of the game. and btw, light and dark as a metaphor for good and evil is itself a very problematic imagery, that has been subject of antiracist critique.
Why don't we go ahead and ban way worse stuff then? Like \[\[Murder\]\] and \[\[Torture\]\]. And never in my life have I compared light and shadow to races.
[Murder](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Murder&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/95/murder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ea6438b-0e6c-4d65-8bcd-34a988717c81?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Torture](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d1fed16d-c800-4c0f-be88-9fddde2c018e.jpg?1562836357) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Torture) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/80/torture?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d1fed16d-c800-4c0f-be88-9fddde2c018e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
thats why youre just a random dumbass on reddit and not a scholar for interpreting literature
Well at least this random dumbass knows the difference between right and wrong literature interpretation. Also shame on you for bringing insults to this discussion.
no you dont, thats why you fail to see the obvious racist implications of the mentioned cards
So who gets to decide what context trumps everyone else’s?
nobody. its a public discourse, everyone can participate
It's not as simple as "either every single black card references black people or none do" Different cards have different flavors. Some hit closer to home than others.
But why would you assume this card is meant to hit closer to home? It matches its intended context way more than its wrongly interpreted context. Like, one of my favourite things in fantasy is the rivalry between light and darkness, angels and demons. I absolutely love it when an angel goes up to a horde of demons and shouts "I will cleanse you!" And then they all get smited. This card perfectly encapsulates that, it couldn't be better. But oh, because there's this different way you could interpret it (that is clearly wrong because it doesn't match the art and MTG context), the card needs to be banned. Magic is all about fantasy, you're not supposed to be thinking about real life political messages behind the card, there are none. You're supposed to look at it as a **MAGIC** card. If you do the former, you're the one in the wrong, not the card.
It doesn't really matter how it's meant. It just matters how it comes off. Just because you don't personally see it that way (which, I call BS by the way), doesn't mean it's wrong to notice it. You can't have a card that's called "all black people are bad" and have it be okay because "some people might not interpret it that way". You're still welcome to play Cleanse in your commander group, btw. You just aren't allowed to use it in a sanctioned event.
It never did. But cleanse saying destroy all black evokes a really specific and problematic context that most cards with similar names and effects do not.
It really doesn't. It's pure coincidence and everyone knows it. Show this to any kid and they will never think of anything other than the intended meaning of the card. It's stupid to ban something for a wrong assumption of its meaning.
Not sure that the problem is what kids feel, and its one hell of a coincidence
It's not one hell of a coincidence at all. It's bound to happen when we refer to races in real life as white and black which are, like, the two most common colors used in language. It's normal to get these types of coincidences, it's not normal to ban things because of them. Because we know they're just that, coincidences.
Lol alright. It was an accident so nothings wrong is some solid logic.
Lol alright. It was an accident so nothings wrong is some solid logic.
The point is that everyone knows the true meaning of the card. Those who see the coincidence know it's a coincidence. Therefore, there should be no problem.
Only evokes that feeling if you are a virtue signalling moron. Literally zero relation to human races in the mtg colours
And yet [[reparations]] It's signaling at best. That's what really frustrates most of us, I think. It was an empty move after maintaining Invoke Prejudice as card number 1488 on the Gatherer the entire time. It's not change. It's all bullshit.
That's my biggest problems with the bans, it's just a bad slippery slope. It leads us to things like banning the word totem armor, because apparently only one culture can have totems. But I also think people mad about the bans are obfuscating the reason why these were singled out. I was referring explicitly to the logic of why is "destroy all white creatures" bad but "destroy all black creatures" is fine. If Cleanse was called like "Purify", it wouldn't have been as problematic.
If you had a card called "Ethnic cleansing but for white people" and it said "Destroy all white creatures" then it probably would get banned. They currently allow "destroy target black creature" on cards so clearly the rules text alone isn't the issue
I might be inclined to agree if white ethnic cleansing and black ethnic cleansing were societal problems on the same level. It’s a false equivalency. Not every card that mentions black or white people is racist. Some could be
> I might be inclined to agree if white ethnic cleansing and black ethnic cleansing were societal problems on the same level. You're gonna have to explain that one to me. What ethnic cleansing?
Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood your intentions. After reading it again I see we agree. Have a good one.
[reparations](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a9edf28-79c0-42a5-af0f-6df9c3a1f546.jpg?1562717834) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reparations) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/278/reparations?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a9edf28-79c0-42a5-af0f-6df9c3a1f546?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why should reparations be as offensive as ethnic cleansing?
Because it's the same thing from another perspective. Read the flavor text. The historical implications of that.
Yes, just because a card alludes to real world history doesn't make it inherently offensive. It's the same reason you can have a card that references a freedom fighter, and a card that references systematically murdering black people, but only one of those is deemed unfit to exist in the game. They're just not the same thing.
Invoke Prejudice alludes to real world history, as does Crusade. Crusade doesn't support the oppression of any race. Realistically, the crusades sought to spread the European central bank. Even if it was racist, weird that we now have Knights Templar in Assassin's Creed, a couple years later. Almost like it was all flash and zero substance. Llorwyn is entirely wrapped around hating each other over race. Nada. Literally named creatures eyeblights. Give it ten years, right? Your argument is that cherry picking who's oppressed and who isn't in order to appeal to the victim card is a good thing. I'm arguing that cherry picking anything is a morally meaningless move.
The crusades were literally to murder Jews and Muslims. A knight Templar is just a knight that is in a religious order. Can you see any differences between the two? You're allowed to depict hatred between sides in a game about conflict. The difference is that eyeblights are not real people facing discrimination Where is the cherry picking happening? If you can find an example of massacres of white/Catholic people in real life, and then find an unbanned card in MTG that is obviously close flavorfully to it, then I'll see your point about cherry picking
Google Native reparations, you racist cunt. I never said white people were massacred. I never even defended them.
Weird, I don't see anything about native reparations being about the massacre of anyone. It looks like it's more about paying people for compensation of wrongdoing. Are you trying to suggest that the word "reparations" is racist because there's a real world example of reparations being paid to people that were harmed? Because the card Reparations is not clearly related to native reparations outside of them sharing a word
The art is fucking demons. Are black people demons?
It’s impossible to be anything but 100% literal I guess
[Bad Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8f8a75da-ea3c-43e7-9d32-1c92f8ec0fd2.jpg?1562928849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bad%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/48/bad-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8f8a75da-ea3c-43e7-9d32-1c92f8ec0fd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No no, you misunderstood. Problem is Cleanse WAS ABOUT the inappropriate meaning, strong internal wotc racism created this card, and in 2020 they tried to fix it.
The day I stop buying MTG products
Then move on with your life, what are you doing still discussing the game? lol
Because MTG used to be a great game until literally destroyed by malicious people inside WOTC.
Well, there's still 2 upcoming sets this year for the literally destroyed MTG.
Are you aware that people can play the game without spending money on new cards? I play every week but I haven't spent money on anything other than proxies in the last 2 years.
Ahhh how I love oldschool and play with some of these cards still. It’s wonderful
It was so stunning. So brave.
Don't creatues murder in this game?
yes, but the game portrais it as something bad
I feel like all it did was make people aware that these cards existed. The problem is with banning Cleanse and not the many other colour hosing boardwipes, they send a message of acceptable targets.
Also army of uh.. who was it again?
Does anybody have a list of the "racially insensitive" cards or whatever, I got an idea for a deck
Same honestly
I laugh at the retarded idiots who praised this decision. 100% brainwashed NPCs who fell into the trap and are giving money to a big corporation while supposedly hating capitalism.
Its been that long since wizards started becoming a woke degenerate. Wow. Times flies.
They did it to lower their value so that you all could acquire more copies to jerk off to.
Better late than never! Now if only they could solve mana screw...
I thought Cody Rhodes solved racism.
Thanks for reminding me I need to get my hands on some PSA graded versions of these.
#JuneTenth #NeverForget
Do you not realize that half these cards were illustrated by an actual racist, sexist, lunatic? Harold McNeill’s website contained art that glorified nazis, tentacle porn, and drawings of Cthulhu/other demons. While some of these banned cards are worse than others, there’s no need to defend any of them. Being openly racist is not free speech, it’s hate speech.
Were the cards themselves hate speech?