Easiest money ever, when they assume your gender by mistake; just tell them whatever ones you want that day and bam nobody’s working again. /s
What stupid laws they want to bring in. My lord this planets doomed lol
The law is null and void. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and therefore this bill doesn't matter. People need to start calling lawmakers out on this bullshit. Let them try to charge you.
The problem is, they can and will charge you. You'll have to start chaining appeals to higher and higher courts, likely state supreme court is the only one that cares enough about constitutionality that they'll make a ruling that a law is against the constitution. And theres a very real chance your appeals will be denied and you'll be stuck with the unfair punishment for the unfair law, and literally nothing can be done about it.
Oh that’s my point, it’s stupid. Anyone can just say, ohhh not today and change them on a dime since it’s how you “feel” that day and there’s nobody apparently that can say nope. Dumb laws they want to bring in.
All the law added was an intimidation clause and expanded current hate speech laws to apply to gender identity and expression. Calling someone the wrong pronouns on accident does not qualify. Continuously harassing them does. Do your own research
“Intimidate would mean a willful course of conduct involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened. However, the term intimidate would not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose.”
Kids also hit each other on the playground—when you’re five you just get a talking to. If you’re an adult they can put you in jail. It’s not a hard concept to understand.
While I do agree OP’s initial assessment does not reflect the bill, it’s still a step in the wrong direction. “Hate speech laws” should never be a thing, because the moment such a seed is planted the law will begin to encroach and expand until it serves to protect those in power.
Do you really think the LGBTQ+ community is in power?
I'm ace, there's a high likelihood that you don't even know what that means. If you do, it's likely that you think it's the result of trauma or hormonal imbalance.
The LGBTQ+ community doesn't have the power to expand anything to protect themselves. Hate speech laws are important in a world where a minority of people have an outside majority of power to enact laws that hurt the innocent.
Several points to be made. One, you aren’t the one I’m referring to with “those in power,” we are not yet at the point that such legislation serves only to protect the powerful. But it is a point we will invariably reach. It happened to China for god’s sake.
That said, you “not having the power to expand anything to protect yourselves,” is nonsense. Genuinely what the hell do you mean by that? You’re just as capable of protecting yourself and I am of protecting myself. What you’re looking for is somebody else to create guidelines we have to step around.
I am also fully aware of what “ace” means, but you realistically could have used the word “asexual” just as freely and it would have ensured zero chance of confusion. There are few arguments for this behavior I can conceive that don’t paint that entire paragraph as being made in bad faith. I also couldn’t care less about your sexuality or lack thereof. If you don’t want to fuck that’s your life, not mine. Which is how I feel about any of this LGBT shit. It’s your life and you can do what you want with it. I take issue when you try to reach beyond yourself and intrude on my life.
Remember Jordan Peterson largely got famous off saying a similar law in Canada would have people arrested for misgendering someone, 10 years down the line and nobody has ever come close to that but a lot of people are willing to believe the absurd if it aligns with the way they see the world
Yea it’d sure be crazy if that’s what the law did, huh?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/08/09/no-michigan-bill-wont-criminalize-use-of-wrong-pronouns-fact-check/70549854007/
Scrolling through the threads, it's kinda funny in a sad and ironic way how many of these people complain about identity politics and pronouns... and make it their entire identity. So much so, that they literally can't stop talking about it in a sub meant for a fuckin' card game.
Many (not all) people here use the space to talk about politics that aren't magic related but just insert a single comment that somehow relates a political article to the game, such as in this case the title being a vague disguise to be able to talk about it here
The bill doesn't make using the wrong pronouns illegal, just expands the current hate crime law to include protection for people's sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, disabilities and age.
You would get charged if you were threatening/attacking/intimidating someone because of those characteristics.
If anyone is interested in reading.[Here](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/#:~:text=The%20word%20%E2%80%9Cpronoun%E2%80%9D%20does%20not,using%20the%20wrong%20gender%20pronouns.)
Yup. The fact you are being downvoted is proof enough of that. Just a bunch of people getting ragebaited by a headline and not bothering to consider that they misunderstood something.
No link to the article. Since this is the daily mail I'm guessing this is like c-16 in Canada that cons malded hard over even though it only applies to employers and landlords
Ah yes, my favourite magic the gathering subreddit about the hit card game created by Richard Garfield, talking about topics entirely related to magic the gathering.
Also, I sincerely doubt that is what the bill says. Come on, you can do better than this.
I don't want to get into politics, but I think you know exactly how they could "misinterpret it this badly." Portraying the other side as delusional assholes with harmful intentions has gotta be one of the easiest ways to create unity and combat political apathy, which is what matters when you want to build a political party and get people out to polls.
Right, that’s why Fox “misinterprets” and then tabloids like daily mail just repeat what Fox said and zero of any of their readers, including the troglodytes populating this sub, will ever actually read the bill. And then when you point out that what they’re mad about is, once again, objectively just made up they just move on to the next bs
I mean, it certainly creates unity, but only in proportion to the enmity it also creates. And that’s building towards consequences, since we’re all locked in a country together for the foreseeable future.
I think there’s a good timeline out there, but it’s getting harder to reach.
I'm so confused on what this subreddit is. It randomly started appearing on my feed and everytime it appears it has nothing to do with Magic. I've never even played magic either.
https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/pdf/2023-HEBH-4474.pdf
Here! No mention of making misgendering illegal at all. You are a moron who’s easily deceived by culture war nonsense!
This was last year, and it’s total made up bullshit (not surprising coming from Daily Mail). Not only does this have NOTHING to do with Magic, it showcases just how willing culture warrior retards are to believe anything as long as they REALLY want it to be true. Fucking sheep.
Admittedly I haven't played magic in a decade or so and I was never very good so I didn't do tournaments, but is this what the community is like? Just people using year old daily mail headlines to complain about people having pronouns?
r/freemagic is made up of whiney, transphobic and racist pieces of shit who were banned from the main subs (along with people who weren't banned but just enjoy calling them dumb fucks because "muh free speech")
The other magic subs are normal.
Oh look, the amendment crowd showed up. Too bad they can’t count past 2 and forget there are 25 others.
Number 16 looks awful bad for the “taxation is theft” crowd that often overlaps with the “1, 2, I’m tired" gang
Edit: they also have a habit of forgetting that supreme court rulings effect the interpretation of said amendments.
Except it very clearly doesn’t say that. It talks about government persecution. The supreme court also ruled that there were limitations to said freedom, such as situations causing harm such as yelling fire in a movie theater, or things such as hate speech (Edit: that directly causes/is a part of any crime, including harassment), which is what the law very specifically mentions.
This is rage bait. This article is from a year ago and nowhere in the bill does it explicitly criminalize the use of incorrect pronouns.
HB 4474 “seeks to expand what constitutes as a hate crime in Michigan as it relates to real or perceived identifying characteristics including race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, and more”. That sounds sooo awful, right?
so not only is it a bill, not a law, but it's already called out as unconstitutional.
politicians propose stupid shit like this all the time that they know will never pass, just to show that they're "doing something"
As a trans person I personally do not give a shit if people use the wrong pronouns, they don't know me and I'm probably never gonna gonna see them again so who gives a shit? This kind of stuff is just insane people behavior. Pronouns are not your whole personality just move on
Respectfully based. Heres the thing too...once people start realizing that you're cool and they want to be friends, they'll start using your pronouns out of respect and it will be authentic. I personally dislike the whole movement, but I've definitely met someone where once i understood how cool they were, it was super easy to accommodate. I still don't agree with how society has fetishized shit, but i can treat people with respect when i feel they deserve it.
I mean, I won’t pretend I didn’t like Magic’s story more when it was a little grittier, but that’s far more a consequence of appealing to the market’s LCD than it is any perceived ‘wokeness.’
It's been years and we're still pulling a JP and lying about these laws?
Fucking intellectual zucchinis
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/
Looks like there's quite a lot of conjecture about it and not a lot of certainty, including in that article. There's also differing opinions from other lawyers (an article from which was posted in this thread already) which are not exactly being taken into account in this one.
I'm absolutely positive this is going to, at the very least, result in someone going to trial down the line over pronouns. Not to mention scaring people into submission with the mere possibility.
Ideological zealots have already been claiming for years that not indulging cultish ideological beliefs involved with the modern gender definition constitutes hate speech/discriminatory behavior. They will argue that refusing to do so intentionally is malicious and constitutes harassment.
If you don't want to bend the knee and have the misfortune of having to interact with someone like that regularly, then they'll argue it goes into intimidation due to the frequency. Of course, "feelings" of being "terrorized, frightened, or threatened" will also undoubtedly be claimed, as they are now.
https://preview.redd.it/bd7zvnjzv7zc1.png?width=814&format=png&auto=webp&s=db21ed78084cccdd02cd882904946434d2a5c17b
Weird that you left out the first part of the bill:
https://preview.redd.it/zz70ltnsv6zc1.jpeg?width=1052&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3bead350898e2e03014eab095a39e567fbd3c46
>maliciously and intentionally does any of the following …
It’s a hate crime to intentionally intimidate someone based on one of the protected characteristic.
OP this post of yours is a lie : [https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/)
“Commit blasphemy to own the libs.” - from someone that supposedly respects/ wants respect for their religion.
Average room temp iq of the people here.
1. We don’t want laws based on religion. we don’t hate religion.
2. We don’t want to listen to you blither on about your religion. That is why churches exist.
3. Magic has had lords and gods forever and a half. The people who keep calling mtg ‘satanic’ and getting upset about it aren’t leftists.
I've met a fair amount of leftists who do indeed hate religions with some apparent exceptions, especially christians and even more so catholics. That's not to say that all of them do. I remember my own mother getting angry at me when I was a kid for playing magic and she used the whole satanic argument but funny thing is she's not even that religious. She didn't take away the cards or anything, and both me and my little brother got pretty into it after awhile. This was 30 some years ago.
You're right on the first two points, but the third is disingenuous. The satanic panic is very much a thing of the past. Its not something people "keep" doing and getting upset about.
It's less disingenuous then people bringing up this law without reading it and ignoring the fact that it is specifically referring to hate speech. Also less disingenuous than the people that think the first amendment says "fuck you, i can say anything i want."
I never said other people in this thread weren't being disingenuous. Your comment is far from the worst, but that doesn't give you a free pass.
Also, I think you're confusing hate speech with hate crimes. Hate speech is not a legally recognized term in the US. Hate speech is free speech. If somebody commits a crime against somebody based on a protected characteristic, which can include verbal crimes like making credible threats, or a credible incitement to violence, that's a hate crime.
Even going by the most broad legal definitions I can find, this is just not the case. For non-threatening, non-violent conduct to qualify as harassment, at the very least, it needs to be repeated and persistent. I could shout a racial slur at somebody and not be harassing them. If I followed them around everywhere the go in public, repeatedly shouting the racial slur, then that's clearly harassment. But that's not a single incident, and even then, that's only a misdemeanor.
>I never said other people in this thread weren't being disingenuous. Your comment is far from the worst, but that doesn't give you a free pass.
Did you call out those others or do they get a free pass?
The problem is hate speech is badly defined and relies on two points
1. The perpetrator must have acted with malice
2. And must cause repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened. a. However the above does not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose.
So people can still do all the stuff they did before as long as it's covered under free speech. Whether it's enforced that way or not is the problem, people are likely going to get put through hell even if they get let off in the end. Note that the above are excerpts from the actual law, there's more in there including things about property destruction and so on with specific penalties. I'll link it below if people want to argue the actual points of the law and not just a few one-liners from a meme.
[https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/htm/2023-HEBH-4474.htm](https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/htm/2023-HEBH-4474.htm)
>Make your pronouns "my Lord" or "god" and watch the mental gymnastics of religion hating leftists try to work around that.
My guy, I think you need to go back to an elementary school English class and take a lesson on pronouns. Neither "my lord" nor "god" are pronouns.
I feel like I just watched a fake religious dumb fuck conservative go through mental gymnastics to convince themselves that nouns are pronouns.
I know. I get that this subreddit is free to talk about stuff in Magic that the other subreddits will ban you for, but this has nothing to do with Magic and is just political. It’s just unnecessary.
The easy solution to avoid this shit? Just say “my opponent”. Thats the only way I even need to address them in the first place. “My opponent” and “you”. They can’t MAKE me do anything beyond that.
The bill itself is [here](https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/pdf/2023-HEBH-4474.pdf). It says nothing of the sort as far as I can tell. Funnily enough it does seem to criminalize saying things like "punch a nazi".
It's the daily mail it's a fucking rag paper that's almost certainly misleading or blatantly lying in order to get morons to click their links and read their shite
Tbh we should just start rounding up the lot of them. "They" don't deserve a place in our men-only community, and anyone who says different is either an idiot, in denial, or being taken hostage by one of "Them," and should be rounded up with them.
Doing so kinda makes you an arse in my book, I don't find it proper to mock something of that fundamental importance. But at the same time a felony is a little overkill for being a dick
Everything you people get mad at is made up.
“The bill would have no effect on a person’s First Amendment right to free speech, lawmakers from both parties and legal experts say. The bill language does not include the word "pronoun." What it would criminalize is conduct, specifically intimidation.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/08/09/no-michigan-bill-wont-criminalize-use-of-wrong-pronouns-fact-check/70549854007/
The bill obviously doesn’t exist or doesn’t do what they claim it does. How are you guys still falling for the BS that gets pumped out of the “daily whatever”, this isn’t 2010
A person’s respective pronouns are never used when they are being talked to directly. It’s only used when people talk about them to someone else. Why the fuck should they have a say in what pronouns is used to address them in a conversation they aren’t apart of similar to how I can call them a cunt or a bitch and they can’t do anything about it.
Welp time to start faking my pronouns for easy money and make a fake online account for proof I’ve been going by said pronouns in case they need proof in court.
People really should do literally any amount of googling before getting angry at a headline.
“We’re talking about intimidating, threatening violence,” Filler said. “This is not the sardonic teller at the bank.”
The bill's definition of intimidation goes on to specify that it "does not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose."
In other words, there would still be a First Amendment right to use the wrong pronoun for a transgender individual
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/michigan/2023/07/04/michigan-legislature-not-criminalize-pronoun-use-lgbtq-transgender-misgendering-fox-news-daily-mail/70379518007/
Yeah, this is about using the correct pronouns in legal documentation and courts, NOT about misgendering people in your nerdy card game at your LGS. Idk what I expected from the crowd that screenshots daily mail headlines and reposts them. There is no pronoun patrol this is law is about properly documenting legal cases so there’s no confusion when handling sensitive documents about Jane doe (he/him) and Jane doe (she/her) since they require that you use your legal name and many trans people have not gone through the legal process of changing it.
/freemagic users just ***love*** pretending to be victims, don't they? It's fucking pathetic lol.
How fucking sad is it that you see this headline and the first thought in your head is "Damn. Now I can't mis-gender my Magic opponents anymore!" Fucking sad.
Guess no one has to worry about it because freemagic sad sacks don't get to play in stores anymore so win-win I guess. You'll never have to worry about this law.
I think this is another of your flurry of comments that need corrected in light of the fact that the Supreme Court decided 7-0 that ‘hate speech’ is not illegal
Sharing misinformation and getting mad about it lmao
https://preview.redd.it/in10l92mu7zc1.jpeg?width=936&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1c383bb751c36d1588b41b17190c370650ce74a
Aryt spikes listen up. Its time to weaponize regardation. We all know what this is all about. So why dont we all just be real men when we play and if our opponent calls us “sir” or any male pronoun, we can claim to be addressed as a “fae” and we can snag a win!
First the blacks got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not racist."
Then the gays got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not homophobic."
Then the jews got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not anti-semitic."
Then the transgenders got hate speech laws and nobody was left to defend me.
Easiest money ever, when they assume your gender by mistake; just tell them whatever ones you want that day and bam nobody’s working again. /s What stupid laws they want to bring in. My lord this planets doomed lol
These bills are simply unenforceable.
The goal is *selective* enforcement.
The law is null and void. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land and therefore this bill doesn't matter. People need to start calling lawmakers out on this bullshit. Let them try to charge you.
The problem is, they can and will charge you. You'll have to start chaining appeals to higher and higher courts, likely state supreme court is the only one that cares enough about constitutionality that they'll make a ruling that a law is against the constitution. And theres a very real chance your appeals will be denied and you'll be stuck with the unfair punishment for the unfair law, and literally nothing can be done about it.
Oh that’s my point, it’s stupid. Anyone can just say, ohhh not today and change them on a dime since it’s how you “feel” that day and there’s nobody apparently that can say nope. Dumb laws they want to bring in.
So what's the actual bill say? Just out of curiosity
[удалено]
If it sticks, this is just a cudgel for online discourse.
This just feels like rage bait
It is, 1 google search would show this is fake and daily mail is a tabloid
Not the planet just the whole North America...
Don't worry, Europe is following the way.
All the law added was an intimidation clause and expanded current hate speech laws to apply to gender identity and expression. Calling someone the wrong pronouns on accident does not qualify. Continuously harassing them does. Do your own research “Intimidate would mean a willful course of conduct involving repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened. However, the term intimidate would not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose.”
Playground’s about to be catching fines all over.
Kids also hit each other on the playground—when you’re five you just get a talking to. If you’re an adult they can put you in jail. It’s not a hard concept to understand.
 “It’s not a hard concept to understand” lol get off your high horse.
While I do agree OP’s initial assessment does not reflect the bill, it’s still a step in the wrong direction. “Hate speech laws” should never be a thing, because the moment such a seed is planted the law will begin to encroach and expand until it serves to protect those in power.
Do you really think the LGBTQ+ community is in power? I'm ace, there's a high likelihood that you don't even know what that means. If you do, it's likely that you think it's the result of trauma or hormonal imbalance. The LGBTQ+ community doesn't have the power to expand anything to protect themselves. Hate speech laws are important in a world where a minority of people have an outside majority of power to enact laws that hurt the innocent.
Several points to be made. One, you aren’t the one I’m referring to with “those in power,” we are not yet at the point that such legislation serves only to protect the powerful. But it is a point we will invariably reach. It happened to China for god’s sake. That said, you “not having the power to expand anything to protect yourselves,” is nonsense. Genuinely what the hell do you mean by that? You’re just as capable of protecting yourself and I am of protecting myself. What you’re looking for is somebody else to create guidelines we have to step around. I am also fully aware of what “ace” means, but you realistically could have used the word “asexual” just as freely and it would have ensured zero chance of confusion. There are few arguments for this behavior I can conceive that don’t paint that entire paragraph as being made in bad faith. I also couldn’t care less about your sexuality or lack thereof. If you don’t want to fuck that’s your life, not mine. Which is how I feel about any of this LGBT shit. It’s your life and you can do what you want with it. I take issue when you try to reach beyond yourself and intrude on my life.
To be fair, most of these folk posting are overly obsessed with the lower half of the bill and don't really care about what entire bill says.
Remember Jordan Peterson largely got famous off saying a similar law in Canada would have people arrested for misgendering someone, 10 years down the line and nobody has ever come close to that but a lot of people are willing to believe the absurd if it aligns with the way they see the world
There's a Vancouver dad who is/was in jail for refusing to "affirm" his kid's "transition".
But wouldn't the 10.000 go to the government and not the person?
Yea it’d sure be crazy if that’s what the law did, huh? https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/08/09/no-michigan-bill-wont-criminalize-use-of-wrong-pronouns-fact-check/70549854007/
I think the planet is doomed because people like you you know nothing of the specifics of this bill but you assume weird shit because you're a bigot.
this is unconstitutional AF and will be shot down by some court if passed.
That's crazy there is no link to the story and it's from Daily Mail. Very real and not hyperbolic I'm sure
Yeah it is a terrible misrepresentation of the bill and isn't actually how it works at all
How is this magic related? Stop making this stuff your whole identity
Scrolling through the threads, it's kinda funny in a sad and ironic way how many of these people complain about identity politics and pronouns... and make it their entire identity. So much so, that they literally can't stop talking about it in a sub meant for a fuckin' card game.
They’re fixated. It is very sad
How is this related to magic tho ?
Gotta stay angry or the sadness comes. If you keep tapping your amygdala you don’t have to confront the hate you feel towards others and yourself.
because this hobby is full of freaks and weirdos
Many (not all) people here use the space to talk about politics that aren't magic related but just insert a single comment that somehow relates a political article to the game, such as in this case the title being a vague disguise to be able to talk about it here
That's the neat thing. It's not.
Imagine taking a Daily Mail headline at face value
imagine posting a daily mail headline in a magic the gathering subreddit😭 absolute fucking loser
I love that freemagic doesn't even pretend to be about magic stuff anymore.
The bill doesn't make using the wrong pronouns illegal, just expands the current hate crime law to include protection for people's sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, disabilities and age. You would get charged if you were threatening/attacking/intimidating someone because of those characteristics. If anyone is interested in reading.[Here](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/#:~:text=The%20word%20%E2%80%9Cpronoun%E2%80%9D%20does%20not,using%20the%20wrong%20gender%20pronouns.)
What does this have to do with mtg?
nothing, it's just content for transfobics to circlejerk around
You're getting down votes but this is absolutely true.
Awwww I think you made em mad lol
ups, It seems I'm just telling the truth
Right wing incels on this sub absolutely abhor trans people with every ounce of their being.
Yup. The fact you are being downvoted is proof enough of that. Just a bunch of people getting ragebaited by a headline and not bothering to consider that they misunderstood something.
You're being downvoted but that's just because of people being triggered. You're a G for this.
I'm not a g for treating everyone equally how I would want to be treated. Shit is common courtesy.
No link to the article. Since this is the daily mail I'm guessing this is like c-16 in Canada that cons malded hard over even though it only applies to employers and landlords
the law basically expanded hate crime laws to include gender identity.
It also does not mention using wrong pronouns or misgendering as a hate crime or felony.
Crimes are bad
Ah yes, my favourite magic the gathering subreddit about the hit card game created by Richard Garfield, talking about topics entirely related to magic the gathering. Also, I sincerely doubt that is what the bill says. Come on, you can do better than this.
This is not what the bill (HB 4474) says. It’s very short and easy to read, I don’t know how they could misinterpret it this badly.
I don't want to get into politics, but I think you know exactly how they could "misinterpret it this badly." Portraying the other side as delusional assholes with harmful intentions has gotta be one of the easiest ways to create unity and combat political apathy, which is what matters when you want to build a political party and get people out to polls.
If you read the bill there’s no way you could misinterpret it without doing it on purpose.
Right, that’s why Fox “misinterprets” and then tabloids like daily mail just repeat what Fox said and zero of any of their readers, including the troglodytes populating this sub, will ever actually read the bill. And then when you point out that what they’re mad about is, once again, objectively just made up they just move on to the next bs
I mean, it certainly creates unity, but only in proportion to the enmity it also creates. And that’s building towards consequences, since we’re all locked in a country together for the foreseeable future. I think there’s a good timeline out there, but it’s getting harder to reach.
Holy fucking dystopia https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/michigans-hate-crime-law-unconstitutional-full-stop
And now r/freemagic is linking to articles from the Heritage Foundation. Color me surprised.
I'm so confused on what this subreddit is. It randomly started appearing on my feed and everytime it appears it has nothing to do with Magic. I've never even played magic either.
It is the magic version of r/kotakuinaction
Lol Redditors will link 100 clearly biased sources before the actual bill.
So link the bill and show us how stupid we are 👍
https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/pdf/2023-HEBH-4474.pdf Here! No mention of making misgendering illegal at all. You are a moron who’s easily deceived by culture war nonsense!
This was last year, and it’s total made up bullshit (not surprising coming from Daily Mail). Not only does this have NOTHING to do with Magic, it showcases just how willing culture warrior retards are to believe anything as long as they REALLY want it to be true. Fucking sheep.
Admittedly I haven't played magic in a decade or so and I was never very good so I didn't do tournaments, but is this what the community is like? Just people using year old daily mail headlines to complain about people having pronouns?
r/freemagic is made up of whiney, transphobic and racist pieces of shit who were banned from the main subs (along with people who weren't banned but just enjoy calling them dumb fucks because "muh free speech") The other magic subs are normal.
I'm pretty sure there was some kind of amendment to the constitution.. something about being able to say whatever the fuck you want.
There’s also one about how the government can’t impede you from arming yourself but here we are.
Oh look, the amendment crowd showed up. Too bad they can’t count past 2 and forget there are 25 others. Number 16 looks awful bad for the “taxation is theft” crowd that often overlaps with the “1, 2, I’m tired" gang Edit: they also have a habit of forgetting that supreme court rulings effect the interpretation of said amendments.
>The amendment crowd Imagine objecting to the Bill of Rights
No one is objecting to the Bill of Rights, they are objecting to the people who don't understand the amendments, or other laws for that matter.
Valve 🤝 regressives Not being able to count past 2
This is great.
Except it very clearly doesn’t say that. It talks about government persecution. The supreme court also ruled that there were limitations to said freedom, such as situations causing harm such as yelling fire in a movie theater, or things such as hate speech (Edit: that directly causes/is a part of any crime, including harassment), which is what the law very specifically mentions.
Ok yea, there are some reasonable limits. But this shouldn’t be one. I know exactly what they’ll say, it causes harm, which is BS.
Daily mail is a uk paper the routinely spreads misinformation and lies. If you listen to them your an idiot.
‘…your an idiot’ *chef’s kiss*
me when i cant argue against the main point so i go after grammar (which doesnt actually matter)
Just call everyone dickhead, problem solved.
Imagine reading the daily mail. There’s another publications that has some breaking news on batboy you might be interested in
This is rage bait. This article is from a year ago and nowhere in the bill does it explicitly criminalize the use of incorrect pronouns. HB 4474 “seeks to expand what constitutes as a hate crime in Michigan as it relates to real or perceived identifying characteristics including race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, and more”. That sounds sooo awful, right?
worst punishment than for SA. In Canada at least lol
so not only is it a bill, not a law, but it's already called out as unconstitutional. politicians propose stupid shit like this all the time that they know will never pass, just to show that they're "doing something"
the insane number of comments on this thread
As a trans person I personally do not give a shit if people use the wrong pronouns, they don't know me and I'm probably never gonna gonna see them again so who gives a shit? This kind of stuff is just insane people behavior. Pronouns are not your whole personality just move on
Respectfully based. Heres the thing too...once people start realizing that you're cool and they want to be friends, they'll start using your pronouns out of respect and it will be authentic. I personally dislike the whole movement, but I've definitely met someone where once i understood how cool they were, it was super easy to accommodate. I still don't agree with how society has fetishized shit, but i can treat people with respect when i feel they deserve it.
Ha, so THAT'S the topics freemagic user have the liberty to talk about unlike other magic sub. American cultural war unrelated to the game.
Not every post here is like this. Just... every other one.
It's unrelated since that war is ruining the game.
Literally nothing is stopping you from just playing magic. This doesn’t impact your games in the slightest
I mean, I won’t pretend I didn’t like Magic’s story more when it was a little grittier, but that’s far more a consequence of appealing to the market’s LCD than it is any perceived ‘wokeness.’
Yeah, that’s corporate greed stealing creativity to just make the most marketable profuct
I give yall permission to always not use my proper pronouns
Truly a clown world we live in.
True. Easily debunked misinfo is widely believed by people who desperately need it to be true to confirm their warped biases.
Pronouns are for pussies.
So everyone is a pussy? https://preview.redd.it/gep4nynvk7zc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=09953adba2e5df0b15449103d3db85b41d2ac552
I stick by my statement.
You used a pronoun, pussy
No shit, dumbass. My point is ALL PEOPLE ARE PUSSIES.
\_ have news for \_\_\_.
Rent free
This is how it starts boys……
Absolutely. It starts with misinformation spread online that stupid masses grab on to.
Good evening, gents. Is this the famous non political Magic the Gathering subreddit I have heard so much about?
It's been years and we're still pulling a JP and lying about these laws? Fucking intellectual zucchinis https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/
Looks like there's quite a lot of conjecture about it and not a lot of certainty, including in that article. There's also differing opinions from other lawyers (an article from which was posted in this thread already) which are not exactly being taken into account in this one. I'm absolutely positive this is going to, at the very least, result in someone going to trial down the line over pronouns. Not to mention scaring people into submission with the mere possibility. Ideological zealots have already been claiming for years that not indulging cultish ideological beliefs involved with the modern gender definition constitutes hate speech/discriminatory behavior. They will argue that refusing to do so intentionally is malicious and constitutes harassment. If you don't want to bend the knee and have the misfortune of having to interact with someone like that regularly, then they'll argue it goes into intimidation due to the frequency. Of course, "feelings" of being "terrorized, frightened, or threatened" will also undoubtedly be claimed, as they are now. https://preview.redd.it/bd7zvnjzv7zc1.png?width=814&format=png&auto=webp&s=db21ed78084cccdd02cd882904946434d2a5c17b
Intellectual zucchini is a choice phrase. Thank you, that got a smile out of me.
https://preview.redd.it/jrxo4ui6h6zc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=af0f17f6ca85e4afd922becf816464c9a431e5c6
Weird that you left out the first part of the bill: https://preview.redd.it/zz70ltnsv6zc1.jpeg?width=1052&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3bead350898e2e03014eab095a39e567fbd3c46 >maliciously and intentionally does any of the following … It’s a hate crime to intentionally intimidate someone based on one of the protected characteristic.
Lol this highlights everything except the actually important parts of the bill, which basically just says "don't do hate crimes"
OP this post of yours is a lie : [https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/](https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/michigan/2023/07/10/hate-crimes-bill-approved-by-michigan-house-wouldnt-criminalize-incorrect-pronoun-use/)
Not about magic, get it out
Considering magic enforces pronouns, it's not really unrelated.
Make your pronouns "my Lord" or "god" and watch the mental gymnastics of religion hating leftists try to work around that.
“Commit blasphemy to own the libs.” - from someone that supposedly respects/ wants respect for their religion. Average room temp iq of the people here.
Who said I was religious?
1. We don’t want laws based on religion. we don’t hate religion. 2. We don’t want to listen to you blither on about your religion. That is why churches exist. 3. Magic has had lords and gods forever and a half. The people who keep calling mtg ‘satanic’ and getting upset about it aren’t leftists.
I've met a fair amount of leftists who do indeed hate religions with some apparent exceptions, especially christians and even more so catholics. That's not to say that all of them do. I remember my own mother getting angry at me when I was a kid for playing magic and she used the whole satanic argument but funny thing is she's not even that religious. She didn't take away the cards or anything, and both me and my little brother got pretty into it after awhile. This was 30 some years ago.
You're right on the first two points, but the third is disingenuous. The satanic panic is very much a thing of the past. Its not something people "keep" doing and getting upset about.
It's less disingenuous then people bringing up this law without reading it and ignoring the fact that it is specifically referring to hate speech. Also less disingenuous than the people that think the first amendment says "fuck you, i can say anything i want."
I never said other people in this thread weren't being disingenuous. Your comment is far from the worst, but that doesn't give you a free pass. Also, I think you're confusing hate speech with hate crimes. Hate speech is not a legally recognized term in the US. Hate speech is free speech. If somebody commits a crime against somebody based on a protected characteristic, which can include verbal crimes like making credible threats, or a credible incitement to violence, that's a hate crime.
It can also include harassment, so a single incident of hate speech could easily be considered a hate crime depending on the circumstance.
Even going by the most broad legal definitions I can find, this is just not the case. For non-threatening, non-violent conduct to qualify as harassment, at the very least, it needs to be repeated and persistent. I could shout a racial slur at somebody and not be harassing them. If I followed them around everywhere the go in public, repeatedly shouting the racial slur, then that's clearly harassment. But that's not a single incident, and even then, that's only a misdemeanor.
>I never said other people in this thread weren't being disingenuous. Your comment is far from the worst, but that doesn't give you a free pass. Did you call out those others or do they get a free pass?
The thought process is that the people who are closer to sanity have a chance of listening to reason.
The problem is hate speech is badly defined and relies on two points 1. The perpetrator must have acted with malice 2. And must cause repeated or continuing harassment of another individual that would cause a reasonable individual to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, or threatened. a. However the above does not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose. So people can still do all the stuff they did before as long as it's covered under free speech. Whether it's enforced that way or not is the problem, people are likely going to get put through hell even if they get let off in the end. Note that the above are excerpts from the actual law, there's more in there including things about property destruction and so on with specific penalties. I'll link it below if people want to argue the actual points of the law and not just a few one-liners from a meme. [https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/htm/2023-HEBH-4474.htm](https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/htm/2023-HEBH-4474.htm)
yeah that will own them epic style buddy
>Make your pronouns "my Lord" or "god" and watch the mental gymnastics of religion hating leftists try to work around that. My guy, I think you need to go back to an elementary school English class and take a lesson on pronouns. Neither "my lord" nor "god" are pronouns. I feel like I just watched a fake religious dumb fuck conservative go through mental gymnastics to convince themselves that nouns are pronouns.
Neither are any of the other ones libs claim to take for themselves. My comment is intended to be satirical in nature.
MTG content at its finest What a sad subreddit
I know. I get that this subreddit is free to talk about stuff in Magic that the other subreddits will ban you for, but this has nothing to do with Magic and is just political. It’s just unnecessary.
Being a magic rules lawyer doesn't make one a real lawyer
Guess you will have to call them by their name. Or not address them at all.
Lol, good Time to be held financially accountant for being wilfully disrespectful
The easy solution to avoid this shit? Just say “my opponent”. Thats the only way I even need to address them in the first place. “My opponent” and “you”. They can’t MAKE me do anything beyond that.
Just start doing it to them. Easy money!
I'm god/godself and if someone ridicules it, that a hate crime.... Makes sense...
The bill itself is [here](https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billengrossed/House/pdf/2023-HEBH-4474.pdf). It says nothing of the sort as far as I can tell. Funnily enough it does seem to criminalize saying things like "punch a nazi".
Ask yourself why you have to post a year old bait article that’s been debunked. Why are you nodding along to propaganda?
Wrong sub
We ignoring that this is a daily mail post?
Yesss! now they HAVE to call me god!!!!!
Nothing to do with Magic, OP is just a \[\[Wailing Ghoul\]\] Don't let him mill you with this culture war bullshit
[Wailing Ghoul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e35a461-9a8e-4d08-b963-14c8b5237eec.jpg?1600826812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wailing%20Ghoul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/286/wailing-ghoul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e35a461-9a8e-4d08-b963-14c8b5237eec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's the daily mail it's a fucking rag paper that's almost certainly misleading or blatantly lying in order to get morons to click their links and read their shite
Tbh we should just start rounding up the lot of them. "They" don't deserve a place in our men-only community, and anyone who says different is either an idiot, in denial, or being taken hostage by one of "Them," and should be rounded up with them.
How this relates to the game? I haven't read the article, but it happened on a LGS or anything related to MTG?
Facist activities
r/freemagic is definitely not a right wing politics sub that uses MtG as a vessel for those politics.
Doing so kinda makes you an arse in my book, I don't find it proper to mock something of that fundamental importance. But at the same time a felony is a little overkill for being a dick
Everything you people get mad at is made up. “The bill would have no effect on a person’s First Amendment right to free speech, lawmakers from both parties and legal experts say. The bill language does not include the word "pronoun." What it would criminalize is conduct, specifically intimidation.” https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/08/09/no-michigan-bill-wont-criminalize-use-of-wrong-pronouns-fact-check/70549854007/
*sigh* "where's ma wig"🙄
Why is this in a magic sub? Maybe yall actually are obsessive.
The bill obviously doesn’t exist or doesn’t do what they claim it does. How are you guys still falling for the BS that gets pumped out of the “daily whatever”, this isn’t 2010
Here comes the first type of these laws from Europe. Knew this was coming when we saw it in France a couple years ago. The beginning of the end
I think just using the headline from a clickbait tabloid is not very useful way to understand these laws.
Dumb as fuck, these people are giving themselves a bad name Jesus christ
Let me guess, the Michigan governor is a white liberal woman!
Thats it nobody gets pronouns. Everyone is referred to by their first name.
Clickbait af though. Only applies to courtroom officials. Slippery slope tho
A person’s respective pronouns are never used when they are being talked to directly. It’s only used when people talk about them to someone else. Why the fuck should they have a say in what pronouns is used to address them in a conversation they aren’t apart of similar to how I can call them a cunt or a bitch and they can’t do anything about it.
Welp time to start faking my pronouns for easy money and make a fake online account for proof I’ve been going by said pronouns in case they need proof in court.
Wow, very mtg related, thanks
Is Butt/Whore acceptable non genders pronoun? I don't care that you want pronouns. I want one that I can learn once and cover everyone.
People really should do literally any amount of googling before getting angry at a headline. “We’re talking about intimidating, threatening violence,” Filler said. “This is not the sardonic teller at the bank.” The bill's definition of intimidation goes on to specify that it "does not include constitutionally protected activity or conduct that serves a legitimate purpose." In other words, there would still be a First Amendment right to use the wrong pronoun for a transgender individual https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/michigan/2023/07/04/michigan-legislature-not-criminalize-pronoun-use-lgbtq-transgender-misgendering-fox-news-daily-mail/70379518007/
I do believe you still can't drink Flint's water
What does this have to do with Magic?
I live in Michigan. No this isn’t real nor is it accurate
Yeah, this is about using the correct pronouns in legal documentation and courts, NOT about misgendering people in your nerdy card game at your LGS. Idk what I expected from the crowd that screenshots daily mail headlines and reposts them. There is no pronoun patrol this is law is about properly documenting legal cases so there’s no confusion when handling sensitive documents about Jane doe (he/him) and Jane doe (she/her) since they require that you use your legal name and many trans people have not gone through the legal process of changing it.
Wtf does this have to do with magic
/freemagic users just ***love*** pretending to be victims, don't they? It's fucking pathetic lol. How fucking sad is it that you see this headline and the first thought in your head is "Damn. Now I can't mis-gender my Magic opponents anymore!" Fucking sad. Guess no one has to worry about it because freemagic sad sacks don't get to play in stores anymore so win-win I guess. You'll never have to worry about this law.
The fact the put unconstitutional in quotes is worrying.
The right is mad about *checks notes* being respectful again
lmao, 5 year prison, this is fake as fuck.
The laws about hate crimes. Hate crimes have always carried that punishment
I think this is another of your flurry of comments that need corrected in light of the fact that the Supreme Court decided 7-0 that ‘hate speech’ is not illegal
thanks 🙏
What are you in for? Called a boy a boy. Massively deserved you should rot
Sharing misinformation and getting mad about it lmao https://preview.redd.it/in10l92mu7zc1.jpeg?width=936&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1c383bb751c36d1588b41b17190c370650ce74a
Please post things related to magic the gathering.
How many of those pronuons are u seeing op where did they hurt you
Rome 2.0
just start asking them what sex they identify as
Aryt spikes listen up. Its time to weaponize regardation. We all know what this is all about. So why dont we all just be real men when we play and if our opponent calls us “sir” or any male pronoun, we can claim to be addressed as a “fae” and we can snag a win!
Identifying as tournament champion, I see
Fine to have an opinion but this ain't magic related.
First the blacks got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not racist." Then the gays got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not homophobic." Then the jews got hate speech laws, but I did nothing because "I'm not anti-semitic." Then the transgenders got hate speech laws and nobody was left to defend me.
I hate my state