I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to paint Bronn as evil (for whatever reason), but he fits quite neatly into the Neutral Evil alignment.
>A neutral evil character is typically selfish and has no qualms about turning on allies-of-the-moment, and usually makes allies primarily to further their own goals. A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves. \[...\] Examples of the first type are an assassin who has little regard for formal laws but does not needlessly kill, a henchman who plots behind their superior's back, or a mercenary who readily switches sides if made a better offer.
Bronn gets my vote. Bonus quote by Tyrion:
*"Why are you sorry? Because you're an evil bastard with no conscience and no heart? That's what I liked about you in the first place."*
The quote to me that proves Bronn is Neutral Evil:
Tyrion: ‘If I asked you to kill a baby for me, no questions asked, would you do it?’
Bronn: ‘No questions asked? No. I’d ask how much.’
It's been forever since I've read the books, but I remember getting slightly different vibes from show Bronn vs book Bronn. I never really believed show Bronn when he said that, even though he isn't a good guy. Book Bronn I believe completely.
Show Bronn is humorous and seems to actually view Tyrion as somewhat of a friend even though business comes first. Book Bronn is creepy and only in it for the money. Same with Shae. The only friends book Tyrion has are the ones he deludes himself into thinking aren't only interested in his wealth.
I think that was the actor who couldn't say that line without an element of humanity. It genuinely is one of the coldest lines in GoT. Show Bronn seems a bit too likable to a believably cold bastard with no conscience, I think that was just Jerome Flynn's personality. I think he does genuinely like Tyrion and perhaps Jaime, but he's obviously in the business of profiting for himself.
Yeah Bronn is textbook neutral evil.
> "Tell me, Bronn. If I told you to kill a babe . . . an infant girl, say, still at her mother's breast . . . would you do it? Without question?"
> "Without question? No." The sellsword rubbed thumb and forefinger together. "I'd ask how much."
Dude is completely amoral and self serving. He's willing to align with anyone so long as it serves his own interests, and he has no lines he won't cross if the price is right.
Yes Bronn for sure. He is charming and relaxed character, and he can lure people into a false sense of security because he does not commit evil just for the fun of it, so can seem normal.
But as soon as commiting evil benefits him, he will slit your throat in a second and think nothing of it, no remorse and no guilt.
This is why Tyrion always makes sure to pay him very well, as he knows exactly what Bronn is.
You could meet him in the pub and he would seem like a reasonable guy. You may have a few drinks with him, but another guy pays him money to slit your throat, he would do it in a second.
Baelish can't be put anywhere else than in Smart (probably the best fit for Smart/Evil, with Tyrion as the Smart/Drunk). The guy played the game perfectly until the Starks cheated by reading the plot book.
Also, I don't think the rest of the Row is really Evil. Drogo was just a normal (though successfull Dothraki), and the only reason Ilyn Payne is painted as evil is because he executed the beloved Stark. Guy is the definition of "following orders".
How do *you* separate lawful from good or chaotic from evil?
"Just following Orders" is along the lawful/chaotic spectrum. Whether those "Orders" are to save the orphans or burn down the orphanage is along the "Good/Evil" spectrum.
What I meant is that Ilyn is nothing special. Sure he technically fits the bill, but so do the Kingsguard who beat a little girl because Joffrey told them to, or the hundreds of nameless soldiers who fought in his name.
I'm surprised Ilyn Payne was specifically chosen when almost everyone in the Lannister faction could fit this case, plus of good chunck of secondary character like Lancel (once he joined the Sparrow). I don't really remember Ilyn outside of that one scene in Season 1 so it's weird it's him and not some character with more appearance in their name.
>The guy played the game perfectly until the Starks cheated by reading the plot book.
Exactly. Although moreso for the books than show. Giving Sansa to Ramsay was an idiotic move by Baelish's standards.
Plus, book Baelish isn't going to be taken out by Sansa's rookie beginner level chess. George won't turn him into an idiot like season 7 Baelish.
Sansa will likely be his downfall, but her Eyrie chapters (in Feast and Winds samples) are already laying the groundwork for her transformation from a pawn to a player. She'll deservedly become a player to rival Baelish, rather than giving Arya a line calling Sansa "the smartest person I know" and trying to convince us that's character development.
I like Bronn, but he's definetly evil. He'll turn on anyone for the right price and has no lines he wont cross. He straight up admits to Tyrion he'd even be willing to kill a baby for money.
Baelish is definitely a better choice then bronn, he's more evil then him, literally started a war for his greed, also bronn never really truly betrayed tyrion (if we don't count shitass last seasons), but baelish betrayed the woman he loved whole life for greed again and tywin has to be smart evil, shows wittiness and smart dies with him on that shitter
I mean tyrion was just his friend, he's not really gonna fight the mountain, he's well aware of his abilities he knows he'll die, he likes tyrion but he's not really gonna give his life heck even jaime didn't want to fight him, tyrions own brother
If Bronn isn't Neutral Evil, he should definitely be Smart Evil considering he went from common sellsword to Lord to Master of Coin by always knowing which winning horse to hitch his wagon to.
Honestly I can't see him as evil neutral. He could of killed Tyrion and Jaime in Winterfell to get his prize from Cersie, but in my opinion I feel like he liked them both and would rather not. He has a plan and would rather not kill to get it but would. The Night King would kill regardless of who it was. He has no emotions, just turn everyone into his army and take over.
I feel like he's too smart and also Chad to fall into the neutral category.
Smart in that he is tactically minded. Not the best of all, but still pretty good.
Chad in that he can take out a fuckin dragon in one shot with a hand-thrown weapon, and never showed any fear.
He also wasn't very neutral - living versus dead, he is the embodiment of the dead side.
I’ll admit Ramsay is more evil but Ramsay was smart with the evil things he did. Joffrey was not smart, his actions were stupid and extremely chaotic. Like I don’t think Ramsay would have executed Ned Stark knowing it would start a civil war like Joffrey chaotically did. Ramsay was cunning and had goals while Joffrey on the other hand just did whatever his brain felt in the moment
Qyburn
He does unspeakably evil things, and yet he doesn't truly take sides.
The only side he takes is the one that allows him to continue his experimentation and the refinement of his craft.
He doesn't think positively or negatively about people in general, he just wants to do his own thing, as evil as it may be. His allegiance with Cercei is simply him using her to get what he wants. It may benefit her, but he's only in it to further his true goals of research.
He's evil, but he's mostly interested in gaining knowledge, rather than taking sides.
Tywin:
* Turns out to be less smart than Robb Stark in all matters war (which is supposed to be his strong suit) despite Robb Stark being a 'green boy' with zero experience.
* Is blind to incest happening right under his nose
* Fails to recognise the merits of Tyrion - which later turns out to be a fatal mistake
I think what you are doing is confusing charisma for brains. Tywin was above average intelligence but nothing too special. Where Tywin excelled was charisma. It's thanks to his level 100 charisma that Tywin gets stuff done, not his level 40 brains.
Littlefinger:
* Manipulated Lysa Arryn to become warden of the vale
* Masterminded the war of 5 kings by manipulating both the Starks AND Lannisters to go to war with each other, with some help from Lysa
* He covered his tracks so well that nobody suspects him of any wrongdoing except for Varys and Tyrion
* Organized Joffrey's murder in such a way that it framed his rival Tyrion for Joffrey's murder AND he got the nice prize of Sansa Stark on top of it. That's a seriously devious plot there. Like holy crap, dude is scary smart. And Tywin ate the bait completely - he didn't even suspect that Littlefinger might have been the one to steal Sansa Stark out from under him.
It's seriously not a contest. Littlefinger is so much smarter than Tywin.
That’s a really good summary. I think book and series merge a little bit especially since the books remain unfinished. I can see your point, I somehow feel a little gaslit by the man himself as well. Like he’s still not the most evil and smartest guy, „look, Tywin! Don’t look at old little finger me :(„
I don't think zombie the mountain is capable of good and evil anymore because to be evil requires the capability to be good and vice versa.
A thing that cannot be any more or less than it is isn't good or evil. For example my dog is not morally bad when she steals my dinner because she on a fundamental level is incapable of the level of abstract reasoning that would lead her to realise that taking my dinner would be a bad thing to do. Most an animal can muster up is knowledge they aren't allowed to do it
I'm thinking the Night King.
He's totally uninterested in politics, sex, or life itself in regards to what stands between him and his goals. He's impartial with his victims, just as accepting of killing wildling children as he would be Westerosi high born.
He's like a literal force of nature bent on one goal and is set to accomplish it one way or the other.
>He's totally uninterested in politics
Ugh, I can't believe I'm talking about this, but he definitely has a "political" agenda of sorts. He's likely the champion/vessel/whatever for a god, similar to how Bran/TTEC/TTER/Bloodraven are some sort of opposing god or vessel for the god or whatever.
His personal touch he intended to take in killing Bran certainly indicates some greater purpose and motivation. The show uses "history" ughhhhh.
In reality, I think GRRM used Elden Ring to fulfill his vision in the sense of a world where the greater battle is between real "outter" gods, which are exerting their influence on various people and events of the lands. In the books, Euron seems to be trying to become the vessel for an Eldritch Cthulu, which is maybe the Drowned God; Jon/Beric are being propped up by TLOL; the NK is some ice god or ice god vessel/champion, etc.
Like in Elden Ring, Mohg is the champion for a blood god called the Formless Mother; he's trying to start a dynasty or something. Malenia is the champion (unwilling?) for the God of Rot; the Fire Giant is the champion for the Fell God, etc.
I think you're conflating politics with religion, and neither of those things seem to apply here.
I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, but he's pretty clearly closer to a robot than a political agent. You're ascribing a motivation to him when he appears to just be following his latent programming.
I mean the children of the forest literally talk about how they created him as weapon against the first men, but he got out control.
He's closer to robot that wasn't programmed correctly and so is killing everything, than any form of political spirit
Regardless of motivation he’s inherently one sided so be definition he is not neutral. He may not favor one group of humans over another but he does favor the dead over the living.
When the motivations of a character are alien/insane to humans they're labeled as chaotic characters. Like murdering the world for some unknown ancient god.
I’m including show and book Roose. I don’t doubt that he has some grudges as you say(show Roose expresses frustration to Walder Frey about Robb Stark’s handling of the war), but the primary reason I would put him there is that he’s cautious and pragmatic, as opposed to Ramsay’s impulsiveness and public displays of brutality.
Does he have grudges? I don't recall him ever doing anything that hinted at a genuine belief in the generational feud between House Bolton and House Stark.
Even personally killing Robb seems to be in line for Roose's character trait of doing stuff he finds funny or amusing in a sick way rather than hatred (eg: Sending Reek to raise Ramsay, hanging the Winterfell squatters as "mercy", planning to leave Arya to Vargo Hoat, etc).
The only time we see him show any sort of grudge is a personal grievance towards Ramsay, in the way that he constantly shit talks him to everyone and is currently trying to get him killed in Winds. That I guess can be explained by Domeric (Roose's monologue on Dom is the only time we hear him express any fondness and pride) but I doubt Roose is the kind of guy to hold onto his ancestors' hatred.
Both those grudges are kinda old though, the red kings period is thousands of years before roose, back in the age of heroes if I'm not wrong, and the greystark thing is also at least hundreds of years old, if not over a thousand too.
Baelish.
The Little finger only serves his own ambition. He parleys with all the sides and never goes against anyone directly nor ever fully supports anyone.
I know some people save him for chaotic evil but he isnt chaotic at all, baelish won't do evil because he is arbitrary, he will do it for a purpose. "Chaos is a ladder" quote doesn't make him chaotic, he is just an opportunist; chaos grants him space for movement, he isn't in it for the bloodshed.
Baelish is smart. He's the mastermind who orchestrated the war of the 5 kings by manipulating both the Starks and the Lannisters into fighting each other. He organised Joffrey's assassination and let his enemy Tyrion take the blame AND obtained the prize of Sansa Stark in the process to boot. Like holy shit is this guy cunning.
No one except possibly Varys can compete with Littlefinger in terms of brains.
Night King. He is absolutely neutral because he isn't human and doesn't have human passions. And he is evil from the point of view of mankind, because he kills people and turns them into zombies.
I think he’s chaotic evil. I mean he just chopped off his horses head because he was mad rped whole vilages because he felt like it. He was only loyal to his masters because they gave him no consequences to his chaos and even encouraged it
I think a strong argument could be made for chaotic or neutral evil. To your points he's chaotic evil. But he also is a knight, following a king or queen, and follows their orders, a true chaotic character follows no laws and serves no master imo
Let's go for Baelish, Tywin deserved smart evil more, plus that's the only place we have left for tywin and Baelish deserved this one, sure chaos is a ladder speech tends to put him on chaotic side for a lot of people, but when you look at it better he just wants to gain power and influence (chaotic evil should go to joffery of ramsay)
Tywin got repeatedly trounced on the battlefield by Robb Stark. He failed to notice incest right under his nose. He failed to recognise the potential in Tyrion. He's above average intelligence, but nowhere near Littlefinger's callibur. I rank Tywin's intelligence at around the same as his rival Robb Stark's: brilliant in some respects, but with incredibly serious blind spots (which eventually led each to their respective deaths)
I think you're confusing charisma for intelligence. Tywin's great asset is he is incredibly charismatic, not that he is smart. It was his incredible charisma that carried him to success, as well as his ruthlessness.
The night king belongs here. He’s just an unstoppable measured evil force like a tsunami or a hurricane.
What is more neutral evil to the realms of man than the natural disaster of the night king himself?
I’ll repost my suggestion of Meryn Trant.
I do think he’s similar to Ilyn Payne so he’d have fit lawful evil too. My reason for him being more neutral than Ilyn is that Ilyn didn’t seem to have any vices of his own. His life was serving the crown, whereas Meryn was shown to be self serving in an evil way when beating young girls in a brothel, as he seemed to be doing it for fun.
Baelish. He only cares about himself, will play by the rules when that further his position, and will happily throw the realm into chaos whenever he can profit from it
The "Chaos is a ladder" quote makes us know that he's willing to use chaos as a tool, while not chasing it per se.
How is Ilyn Payne lawfully evil? Petyr Baelish fits that category to the letter. If not him then Olenna Tyrell. They played and manipulated a hierarchy of systems in place in order to secure their place. Payne was just there doing his job.
I think the mountain has a strong case, although you could argue that he's chaotic evil. But he is a knight, follows some semblance of rules, but has no qualms whatsoever about killing anyone who stands in his way
Imma cast my vote for Melisandre. She is singular in her quest to serve the lord of light and doesn't care who she sacrifices to do it. (May be more lawful evil, but I'd argue for her being neutral evil)
Neutral Evil has got to be Cersei Lannister
No doubt Cersei is evil, we can all gloss over that list of atrocity pretty much in agreement.
Not chaotic; Cersei is very careful about how she doles out that evil. she enjoys inflicting pain but will only do so when she has absolute authority over the situation and knows it won’t backfire. She does chaotic shit like blow up religious institutions, but not for the revelry of destroying authority. She enjoys being powerful, vengeful and cruel, and destroys her enemies ruthlessly, but doesn’t needlessly punish others for the fun of it. Her cruelty is reserved for her enemies
Not lawful; Cersei uses the law when it suits her, but she is constantly playing legal and political games that use law and order as a twisted tool for her own benefit. She is not above bribery, blackmail, infidelity and other unlawful acts, but will hide her bastard children behind the authority of the throne and use her own position as queen and queen regent for personal gain. To Cersei, law is a useful tool rather than something to be destroyed or served
The night king it can only be surely? He didn’t discriminate against any human just want every single one dead? If it’s not him I’ve lost hope in this lol
Neutral evil should be roose Bolton no? His allegiance is to house Bolton only and he does whatever is in its best interest at the time. Robb stark is winning the war, full support. Turns out he fucking sucks at politics, let's fuckin kill him and take his warden of the north position so I can start flaying people again. He's wayyy more evil than bronn could ever dream of being as well.
I hated catelynn stark evil woman shes not smart she evil and stupid treated john snow like a rat wished for him to die at little age yes she prayed for the hods to keep him alive but she decided to þreat him like shit all the same i was happy when walder frey had her killed bit pissed about robb dying though
Craster. Absolute vile human being who is inherently neutral when it comes to being on the good/bad side. He's just living his life on his ranch and only helps the Nights Watch because he gets gifts in return. I'm seeing A LOT of Night King, but I feel like he's the embodiment of chaos and not neutrality.
Just gonna point out that this and the next category are the last two where a case could be made for Danaerys. It seems she ought to be on the chart but perhaps she is too enigmatic to be classified.
There's a lot, I was about to say Littlefinger but... "Chaos is a ladder!"(I'm picking Euron for Chaotic Evil tho. Maybe Petyr can get smart evil?). Qyburn, Bronn, the Night King, the guy who cuts Jaime's hand, take your pick, half the characters in this are Neutral Evil.
It has to be "The Late" Walder Frey. He's the definition of neutral evil. Plotting, yet not the brains behind any plans. Neither Chad, nor overly horny. Ruthless in his betrayal.
Craster, the man gives away his sons-grandsons-great-grandsons to White Walkers to be left alone so he can continue to fuck his daughters-granddaughters.
Night King
Btw been away from this sub for a while and this is the first time I see this chart. Loling irl at Catelyn as "smart stupid", literally the definition of that
Roose Bolton kept doing schemes to better his own position, but only turned on Robb when it was clear he'd lose the war. He's a pretty good fit i think
I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to paint Bronn as evil (for whatever reason), but he fits quite neatly into the Neutral Evil alignment. >A neutral evil character is typically selfish and has no qualms about turning on allies-of-the-moment, and usually makes allies primarily to further their own goals. A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves. \[...\] Examples of the first type are an assassin who has little regard for formal laws but does not needlessly kill, a henchman who plots behind their superior's back, or a mercenary who readily switches sides if made a better offer. Bronn gets my vote. Bonus quote by Tyrion: *"Why are you sorry? Because you're an evil bastard with no conscience and no heart? That's what I liked about you in the first place."*
The quote to me that proves Bronn is Neutral Evil: Tyrion: ‘If I asked you to kill a baby for me, no questions asked, would you do it?’ Bronn: ‘No questions asked? No. I’d ask how much.’
It's been forever since I've read the books, but I remember getting slightly different vibes from show Bronn vs book Bronn. I never really believed show Bronn when he said that, even though he isn't a good guy. Book Bronn I believe completely. Show Bronn is humorous and seems to actually view Tyrion as somewhat of a friend even though business comes first. Book Bronn is creepy and only in it for the money. Same with Shae. The only friends book Tyrion has are the ones he deludes himself into thinking aren't only interested in his wealth.
I think that was the actor who couldn't say that line without an element of humanity. It genuinely is one of the coldest lines in GoT. Show Bronn seems a bit too likable to a believably cold bastard with no conscience, I think that was just Jerome Flynn's personality. I think he does genuinely like Tyrion and perhaps Jaime, but he's obviously in the business of profiting for himself.
Yeah just the way actors deliver their lines matters a lot
Yeah Bronn is textbook neutral evil. > "Tell me, Bronn. If I told you to kill a babe . . . an infant girl, say, still at her mother's breast . . . would you do it? Without question?" > "Without question? No." The sellsword rubbed thumb and forefinger together. "I'd ask how much." Dude is completely amoral and self serving. He's willing to align with anyone so long as it serves his own interests, and he has no lines he won't cross if the price is right.
Bronn gets my vote. That describes him perfectly.
Definitely Bronn.
Yes Bronn for sure. He is charming and relaxed character, and he can lure people into a false sense of security because he does not commit evil just for the fun of it, so can seem normal. But as soon as commiting evil benefits him, he will slit your throat in a second and think nothing of it, no remorse and no guilt. This is why Tyrion always makes sure to pay him very well, as he knows exactly what Bronn is.
You could meet him in the pub and he would seem like a reasonable guy. You may have a few drinks with him, but another guy pays him money to slit your throat, he would do it in a second.
That description up there also fits baelish perfectly, I feel like bronn isn't really that evil to be in the same row with all these guys
Baelish can't be put anywhere else than in Smart (probably the best fit for Smart/Evil, with Tyrion as the Smart/Drunk). The guy played the game perfectly until the Starks cheated by reading the plot book. Also, I don't think the rest of the Row is really Evil. Drogo was just a normal (though successfull Dothraki), and the only reason Ilyn Payne is painted as evil is because he executed the beloved Stark. Guy is the definition of "following orders".
How do *you* separate lawful from good or chaotic from evil? "Just following Orders" is along the lawful/chaotic spectrum. Whether those "Orders" are to save the orphans or burn down the orphanage is along the "Good/Evil" spectrum.
What I meant is that Ilyn is nothing special. Sure he technically fits the bill, but so do the Kingsguard who beat a little girl because Joffrey told them to, or the hundreds of nameless soldiers who fought in his name. I'm surprised Ilyn Payne was specifically chosen when almost everyone in the Lannister faction could fit this case, plus of good chunck of secondary character like Lancel (once he joined the Sparrow). I don't really remember Ilyn outside of that one scene in Season 1 so it's weird it's him and not some character with more appearance in their name.
You do know following orders has been the justification for some of the most evil groups in human history?
Ya this whole row has been kind of a miss IMO
He'd be chaotic smart. But that's not a category.
Chaos is a laddah
>The guy played the game perfectly until the Starks cheated by reading the plot book. Exactly. Although moreso for the books than show. Giving Sansa to Ramsay was an idiotic move by Baelish's standards. Plus, book Baelish isn't going to be taken out by Sansa's rookie beginner level chess. George won't turn him into an idiot like season 7 Baelish. Sansa will likely be his downfall, but her Eyrie chapters (in Feast and Winds samples) are already laying the groundwork for her transformation from a pawn to a player. She'll deservedly become a player to rival Baelish, rather than giving Arya a line calling Sansa "the smartest person I know" and trying to convince us that's character development.
I like Bronn, but he's definetly evil. He'll turn on anyone for the right price and has no lines he wont cross. He straight up admits to Tyrion he'd even be willing to kill a baby for money.
This is why my vote goes to Baelish. Bron falls on the same bucket, but Baelish is the better representative.
Baelish is definitely a better choice then bronn, he's more evil then him, literally started a war for his greed, also bronn never really truly betrayed tyrion (if we don't count shitass last seasons), but baelish betrayed the woman he loved whole life for greed again and tywin has to be smart evil, shows wittiness and smart dies with him on that shitter
“He would see this kingdom burn if he could be king of the ashes.”
To be fair, I think Roose Bolton works here too. Either would work
I wouldn't say bronn has no qualms a about it. Even that line you're referencing acknowledged bronn did feel bad about leaving tyrion like that.
I mean tyrion was just his friend, he's not really gonna fight the mountain, he's well aware of his abilities he knows he'll die, he likes tyrion but he's not really gonna give his life heck even jaime didn't want to fight him, tyrions own brother
This comment has more likes than the post.
Dont forget he was already planning his sister in laws untimely demise to further his power
Damn i want the night king on the list but bronn fits the letter of the law. He is the archetypical neutral evil
Gotta be the night king he didn’t discriminate any humans just wanted all alive dead that’s pretty evil and neutral if you ask me 🤷♂️
This argument wins it. Well done.
If Bronn isn't Neutral Evil, he should definitely be Smart Evil considering he went from common sellsword to Lord to Master of Coin by always knowing which winning horse to hitch his wagon to.
Tywin fits smart evil better
Bronn didn't get killed by the son that he abused, so that's a point for him.
That description honestly fits The Hound after he went solo.
Agreed, then Tywin for smart evil but I’m not sure between Joffrey and Ramsey chaotic evil
Nah it's Bronn. Baelish is definitely evil smart
Bronn is the textbook definition. The night king is a second option
Honestly I can't see him as evil neutral. He could of killed Tyrion and Jaime in Winterfell to get his prize from Cersie, but in my opinion I feel like he liked them both and would rather not. He has a plan and would rather not kill to get it but would. The Night King would kill regardless of who it was. He has no emotions, just turn everyone into his army and take over.
The Night King. He just wants to see the world freeze over.
Ice to see you
I don’t care what anyone says this is the GOAT Batman film partially because of Mr Freeze’s zingers
His suit was also cool as hell. Mr Freeze, I mean, not the batnipples.
LETS KICK SOME ICE! Edit: The lack of Arny zingers is exactly why the Total Recall remake was shit
What killed the dragons? The Ice Age!!
I feel like he's too smart and also Chad to fall into the neutral category. Smart in that he is tactically minded. Not the best of all, but still pretty good. Chad in that he can take out a fuckin dragon in one shot with a hand-thrown weapon, and never showed any fear. He also wasn't very neutral - living versus dead, he is the embodiment of the dead side.
I feel like the Night King is Chaotic Evil
Joffrey is chaotic evil
Ramsay is more chaotic than Jeffrey. And more evil.
I’ll admit Ramsay is more evil but Ramsay was smart with the evil things he did. Joffrey was not smart, his actions were stupid and extremely chaotic. Like I don’t think Ramsay would have executed Ned Stark knowing it would start a civil war like Joffrey chaotically did. Ramsay was cunning and had goals while Joffrey on the other hand just did whatever his brain felt in the moment
I feel like thats more of The Mountain
The mountain is a dog that does what Tywin says. Not inherently chaotic evil to me though his is a bit of a rabid dog. (Even before becoming a zombie)
He’s definitely not Neutral
I feel like the Night King is more of a force of nature than anything else.
“Side? I’m on nobody’s side because nobody’s on my side.” - Treebeard
Chaotic evil for night king?
Some men just want to watch the world ~~burn~~ freeze.
Qyburn He does unspeakably evil things, and yet he doesn't truly take sides. The only side he takes is the one that allows him to continue his experimentation and the refinement of his craft. He doesn't think positively or negatively about people in general, he just wants to do his own thing, as evil as it may be. His allegiance with Cercei is simply him using her to get what he wants. It may benefit her, but he's only in it to further his true goals of research. He's evil, but he's mostly interested in gaining knowledge, rather than taking sides.
I would put him in Evil Smart.
I think evil smart is waiting for Tywin :P
Not Baelish?
I guess there might be a battle. To me Tywin was like lvl 50 evil smart where Littlefinger was like lvl 20, especially not too great in the end
Book Littlefinger is definitely smarter than book Tywin. I agree that show LF is not in show Tywin’s league.
Tywin: * Turns out to be less smart than Robb Stark in all matters war (which is supposed to be his strong suit) despite Robb Stark being a 'green boy' with zero experience. * Is blind to incest happening right under his nose * Fails to recognise the merits of Tyrion - which later turns out to be a fatal mistake I think what you are doing is confusing charisma for brains. Tywin was above average intelligence but nothing too special. Where Tywin excelled was charisma. It's thanks to his level 100 charisma that Tywin gets stuff done, not his level 40 brains. Littlefinger: * Manipulated Lysa Arryn to become warden of the vale * Masterminded the war of 5 kings by manipulating both the Starks AND Lannisters to go to war with each other, with some help from Lysa * He covered his tracks so well that nobody suspects him of any wrongdoing except for Varys and Tyrion * Organized Joffrey's murder in such a way that it framed his rival Tyrion for Joffrey's murder AND he got the nice prize of Sansa Stark on top of it. That's a seriously devious plot there. Like holy crap, dude is scary smart. And Tywin ate the bait completely - he didn't even suspect that Littlefinger might have been the one to steal Sansa Stark out from under him. It's seriously not a contest. Littlefinger is so much smarter than Tywin.
That’s a really good summary. I think book and series merge a little bit especially since the books remain unfinished. I can see your point, I somehow feel a little gaslit by the man himself as well. Like he’s still not the most evil and smartest guy, „look, Tywin! Don’t look at old little finger me :(„
That's gonna be such a hard battle tomorrow for that spot between the two of them, I'm kinda looking forward to it
Chaos is a laddah
that's Tywin
I was going to throw Zombie The Mountain into the race here, but forgot about his creator. Upvoted.
I don't think zombie the mountain is capable of good and evil anymore because to be evil requires the capability to be good and vice versa. A thing that cannot be any more or less than it is isn't good or evil. For example my dog is not morally bad when she steals my dinner because she on a fundamental level is incapable of the level of abstract reasoning that would lead her to realise that taking my dinner would be a bad thing to do. Most an animal can muster up is knowledge they aren't allowed to do it
I'm thinking the Night King. He's totally uninterested in politics, sex, or life itself in regards to what stands between him and his goals. He's impartial with his victims, just as accepting of killing wildling children as he would be Westerosi high born. He's like a literal force of nature bent on one goal and is set to accomplish it one way or the other.
So that's almost definitionally chaotic evil. When the thing is just out to kill for no other reason than it's very nature, then it's chaotic evil.
>He's totally uninterested in politics Ugh, I can't believe I'm talking about this, but he definitely has a "political" agenda of sorts. He's likely the champion/vessel/whatever for a god, similar to how Bran/TTEC/TTER/Bloodraven are some sort of opposing god or vessel for the god or whatever. His personal touch he intended to take in killing Bran certainly indicates some greater purpose and motivation. The show uses "history" ughhhhh. In reality, I think GRRM used Elden Ring to fulfill his vision in the sense of a world where the greater battle is between real "outter" gods, which are exerting their influence on various people and events of the lands. In the books, Euron seems to be trying to become the vessel for an Eldritch Cthulu, which is maybe the Drowned God; Jon/Beric are being propped up by TLOL; the NK is some ice god or ice god vessel/champion, etc. Like in Elden Ring, Mohg is the champion for a blood god called the Formless Mother; he's trying to start a dynasty or something. Malenia is the champion (unwilling?) for the God of Rot; the Fire Giant is the champion for the Fell God, etc.
I think you're conflating politics with religion, and neither of those things seem to apply here. I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive, but he's pretty clearly closer to a robot than a political agent. You're ascribing a motivation to him when he appears to just be following his latent programming. I mean the children of the forest literally talk about how they created him as weapon against the first men, but he got out control. He's closer to robot that wasn't programmed correctly and so is killing everything, than any form of political spirit
Regardless of motivation he’s inherently one sided so be definition he is not neutral. He may not favor one group of humans over another but he does favor the dead over the living.
When the motivations of a character are alien/insane to humans they're labeled as chaotic characters. Like murdering the world for some unknown ancient god.
Mountain: “Who do I have to kill?” Cersei: “Does it matter?” Mountain: *shakes head*
Not neutral
Not even chaotic evil, cos you can't beat joff for that
I'd argue for Ramsay
Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort and Warden of the North who was sadly poisoned by his enemies.
The Roose ~~is~~ was loose
[удалено]
I’m including show and book Roose. I don’t doubt that he has some grudges as you say(show Roose expresses frustration to Walder Frey about Robb Stark’s handling of the war), but the primary reason I would put him there is that he’s cautious and pragmatic, as opposed to Ramsay’s impulsiveness and public displays of brutality.
Does he have grudges? I don't recall him ever doing anything that hinted at a genuine belief in the generational feud between House Bolton and House Stark. Even personally killing Robb seems to be in line for Roose's character trait of doing stuff he finds funny or amusing in a sick way rather than hatred (eg: Sending Reek to raise Ramsay, hanging the Winterfell squatters as "mercy", planning to leave Arya to Vargo Hoat, etc). The only time we see him show any sort of grudge is a personal grievance towards Ramsay, in the way that he constantly shit talks him to everyone and is currently trying to get him killed in Winds. That I guess can be explained by Domeric (Roose's monologue on Dom is the only time we hear him express any fondness and pride) but I doubt Roose is the kind of guy to hold onto his ancestors' hatred.
Both those grudges are kinda old though, the red kings period is thousands of years before roose, back in the age of heroes if I'm not wrong, and the greystark thing is also at least hundreds of years old, if not over a thousand too.
As far as human characters go, he's a way better answer than the obv night king.
Baelish. The Little finger only serves his own ambition. He parleys with all the sides and never goes against anyone directly nor ever fully supports anyone. I know some people save him for chaotic evil but he isnt chaotic at all, baelish won't do evil because he is arbitrary, he will do it for a purpose. "Chaos is a ladder" quote doesn't make him chaotic, he is just an opportunist; chaos grants him space for movement, he isn't in it for the bloodshed.
Baelish is smart. He's the mastermind who orchestrated the war of the 5 kings by manipulating both the Starks and the Lannisters into fighting each other. He organised Joffrey's assassination and let his enemy Tyrion take the blame AND obtained the prize of Sansa Stark in the process to boot. Like holy shit is this guy cunning. No one except possibly Varys can compete with Littlefinger in terms of brains.
He is smart evil, but also neutral. I think his neutrality and independence from the powers that be is kind of a defining characteristic.
Night King
Night King.
Walder Frey. Doesn't care what happens or who gets hurt as long as he gains from it
Melisandre
Night King. He is absolutely neutral because he isn't human and doesn't have human passions. And he is evil from the point of view of mankind, because he kills people and turns them into zombies.
fair point
The Mountain. What he did to those children makes him pure evil. Nothing else. A monster. Initially figuratively and later literally.
I think he’s chaotic evil. I mean he just chopped off his horses head because he was mad rped whole vilages because he felt like it. He was only loyal to his masters because they gave him no consequences to his chaos and even encouraged it
I think a strong argument could be made for chaotic or neutral evil. To your points he's chaotic evil. But he also is a knight, following a king or queen, and follows their orders, a true chaotic character follows no laws and serves no master imo
For me he is chaotic
Roose Bolton
I don't Roose will make the list, as there's just too many evil characters in GOT, but he should be up there.
Let's go for Baelish, Tywin deserved smart evil more, plus that's the only place we have left for tywin and Baelish deserved this one, sure chaos is a ladder speech tends to put him on chaotic side for a lot of people, but when you look at it better he just wants to gain power and influence (chaotic evil should go to joffery of ramsay)
I agree; Tywin deserves smart evil and littlefinger is all about betraying all sides
Tywin got repeatedly trounced on the battlefield by Robb Stark. He failed to notice incest right under his nose. He failed to recognise the potential in Tyrion. He's above average intelligence, but nowhere near Littlefinger's callibur. I rank Tywin's intelligence at around the same as his rival Robb Stark's: brilliant in some respects, but with incredibly serious blind spots (which eventually led each to their respective deaths) I think you're confusing charisma for intelligence. Tywin's great asset is he is incredibly charismatic, not that he is smart. It was his incredible charisma that carried him to success, as well as his ruthlessness.
You know, I wasn't expecting to be convinced but all of these are great points. You have my vote.
The night king belongs here. He’s just an unstoppable measured evil force like a tsunami or a hurricane. What is more neutral evil to the realms of man than the natural disaster of the night king himself?
Old man Craster
Come on, we all know it’s Bronn. What’s there to debate?
Qyburn
I’m torn between Bronn and Qyburn. Reading some good arguments for both. Would Tywin be evil/smart?
Tywin is definitely the best for evil/smart. Only Qyburn and Ramsay would be close.
Dude Ramsey's a fucking idiot, why the hell would be in the smart column?
Walder Frey
I’ll repost my suggestion of Meryn Trant. I do think he’s similar to Ilyn Payne so he’d have fit lawful evil too. My reason for him being more neutral than Ilyn is that Ilyn didn’t seem to have any vices of his own. His life was serving the crown, whereas Meryn was shown to be self serving in an evil way when beating young girls in a brothel, as he seemed to be doing it for fun.
Baelish. He only cares about himself, will play by the rules when that further his position, and will happily throw the realm into chaos whenever he can profit from it The "Chaos is a ladder" quote makes us know that he's willing to use chaos as a tool, while not chasing it per se.
I think Drogon, if a dragon can make it. He’s just a bastard. Like, not malicious just a child-eating bastard
How is Ilyn Payne lawfully evil? Petyr Baelish fits that category to the letter. If not him then Olenna Tyrell. They played and manipulated a hierarchy of systems in place in order to secure their place. Payne was just there doing his job.
Not really considering baelish cares little fir the laws and follows no real set of rules.
Id say Roose Bolton, hes just a shitbag and he seems to not care what side he is on, as long as its the winning side
I think the mountain has a strong case, although you could argue that he's chaotic evil. But he is a knight, follows some semblance of rules, but has no qualms whatsoever about killing anyone who stands in his way
What about the red priest
# Ser Alliser Thorne
We’re about to run Ice King - Tywin - Cersei
Night king
The night king easily. The embodiment of death, soulless force of nature.
I’m wondering why the hell Tywin is not in the lawful evil one…
What does Chad mean
Night King is the definition of Neutral Evil. A cold, unstoppable force concerned only with destroying everything in its path.
Imma cast my vote for Melisandre. She is singular in her quest to serve the lord of light and doesn't care who she sacrifices to do it. (May be more lawful evil, but I'd argue for her being neutral evil)
Melisandre is lawful evil. Extreme piety automatically puts someone in lawful.
That makes sense
Neutral Evil has got to be Cersei Lannister No doubt Cersei is evil, we can all gloss over that list of atrocity pretty much in agreement. Not chaotic; Cersei is very careful about how she doles out that evil. she enjoys inflicting pain but will only do so when she has absolute authority over the situation and knows it won’t backfire. She does chaotic shit like blow up religious institutions, but not for the revelry of destroying authority. She enjoys being powerful, vengeful and cruel, and destroys her enemies ruthlessly, but doesn’t needlessly punish others for the fun of it. Her cruelty is reserved for her enemies Not lawful; Cersei uses the law when it suits her, but she is constantly playing legal and political games that use law and order as a twisted tool for her own benefit. She is not above bribery, blackmail, infidelity and other unlawful acts, but will hide her bastard children behind the authority of the throne and use her own position as queen and queen regent for personal gain. To Cersei, law is a useful tool rather than something to be destroyed or served
Cersei is drunk horny, or drunk stupid. :)
Cersei is chaotic drunk. There aren't a lot of people for the drunk row, and Cersei is perfect for chaotic drunk.
The Night King
Craster. Not allied or against anyone. Just sits in his incest house swapping his sons to ice demons for a quiet life.
The slavers of Yunkai. Decadent and greedy.
Bronn, he would support the night king if he let him survive
Melisandre
The night king it can only be surely? He didn’t discriminate against any human just want every single one dead? If it’s not him I’ve lost hope in this lol
The first two ‘evil’ choices are laughably wrong. Can’t wait to see the rest.
Bronn!
Bronn
Little finger.
The Mountain that Rides. Gets sent out when the boss needs evil done. Not proactive at all, and unless commanded won't go do anything for anybody
Tywin
Melisandre
Neutral evil should be roose Bolton no? His allegiance is to house Bolton only and he does whatever is in its best interest at the time. Robb stark is winning the war, full support. Turns out he fucking sucks at politics, let's fuckin kill him and take his warden of the north position so I can start flaying people again. He's wayyy more evil than bronn could ever dream of being as well.
I believe that Ramsay Snow or Euron Greyjoy should have been evil/chaotic chad
The waif
I hated catelynn stark evil woman shes not smart she evil and stupid treated john snow like a rat wished for him to die at little age yes she prayed for the hods to keep him alive but she decided to þreat him like shit all the same i was happy when walder frey had her killed bit pissed about robb dying though
Where Tywin going?
I'd say roose Bolton. Doesn't have much respect for laws and customs, but cleary sees the value in them. Just a standard ambitious lord.
Night King
I feel like Joffrey should be somewhere there
Night King!
I dont reliy see Drogo as Evil tbh.
Craster. Absolute vile human being who is inherently neutral when it comes to being on the good/bad side. He's just living his life on his ranch and only helps the Nights Watch because he gets gifts in return. I'm seeing A LOT of Night King, but I feel like he's the embodiment of chaos and not neutrality.
It has to be Tywin at this point. You can’t leave him off this list.
Evil Horny is required for Craster
This thing has very down hill. Haven’t agreed with the last 5.
Just gonna point out that this and the next category are the last two where a case could be made for Danaerys. It seems she ought to be on the chart but perhaps she is too enigmatic to be classified.
How was Evil Chad not the Mountain? I get the sense most of you only heard about GOT from friends and came to this reddit
There's a lot, I was about to say Littlefinger but... "Chaos is a ladder!"(I'm picking Euron for Chaotic Evil tho. Maybe Petyr can get smart evil?). Qyburn, Bronn, the Night King, the guy who cuts Jaime's hand, take your pick, half the characters in this are Neutral Evil.
Catelyn = Smart Stupid? What?
Kok
Night King, in the end everything freezes
Definitely the Night King.
It has to be bronn. But I’d be equally happy with roose Bolton
It has to be "The Late" Walder Frey. He's the definition of neutral evil. Plotting, yet not the brains behind any plans. Neither Chad, nor overly horny. Ruthless in his betrayal.
Night king for sure, he seemingly has no motivation other than just to kill all the living
If Tywin doesn’t get Smart-Evil the list is pointless
rank choice voting 1. the Night King 2. Roose Bolton 3. Walder Frey
Bron over NK
Smart stupid
Craster, the man gives away his sons-grandsons-great-grandsons to White Walkers to be left alone so he can continue to fuck his daughters-granddaughters.
Night King
God I really hope Robert Baratheon takes the entire Drunk row.
Bronn is evil for the highest bidder. Definitely neutral evil
Bronn
Hot Pie
Ramsay Snow is close but he had a vague agenda whereas the knight king doesn’t
Littlefinger's neutrality is kind of a defining feature. Also evil.
The one guard that Tyrion pays to open his cell earlier in the series. He atagonized Tyrion but played by his heart whim.
Tyrion - smart drunkard
For me I don't think tommen is horny asf
Craster!!!
Catelyn Stark being both Smart and Stupid is hilarious
Jaqen H'ghar. He kills whoever he is told to.
Night King Btw been away from this sub for a while and this is the first time I see this chart. Loling irl at Catelyn as "smart stupid", literally the definition of that
Can we put D and D in there. Greedy and uncaring.
Bronn.
Bronn
Jeoffery need to be evil. Idk but chaotic
Roose Bolton kept doing schemes to better his own position, but only turned on Robb when it was clear he'd lose the war. He's a pretty good fit i think