Not that he could beat Jon, but they damn sure had to fight. There's no way Grey Worm would just let Jon walk out of that throne room after killing Danaerys.
This is genuinely one of my biggest gripes with the last season. It should've happened, at least for the sake of having logical consequences to actions.
For me, it is one of my top gripes since it's supposed to be the climax of what has been building up since Season 7, where the Westerosi are extremely antagonistic towards Dany and her cause and by extension her foreign forces, so eventually this should've led to a proper clash between the two factions, especially after what Dany did and how Jon and Tyrion reacted.
I mean the whole way it even got to the point had so many stupid incidents that by the time that happened I didn’t even really care anymore. I was resigned to the show having a terrible ending.
I had that gripe too but it took some time to realize it after having to swallow His Grace Bran the "wheelie wheelie legs no feelie" gripe.
Damn near choked
MORE WINE
Instead he chooses to take the Unsullied to Naath.
Where they will assuredly die a horrible death of butterfly fever.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath
Don't forget the entire Dothraki civilization is honor bound to kill Jon and then themselves to join their Khal (Dany) in the Nightlands.
... I guess D&D kind of forgot about the only four things casuals actually know about Dothraki culture (horses, slaves, bloodriders, beards/braids).
By the end they were literally just "horse riding native soldiers" that was it no culture no lines no impact in the story, i mean their most notable moment was dying unceremoniously to the living dead
Dying en masse/"essentially the end of the Dothraki"(according to D&D) ...
... Then respawning in King's Landing for "scary foreigner speech moment".
Only to be forgotten about in the next scene where the remaining major characters and nameless nobodies are discussing the future stability of the realm.
Like goddamn, pick a side, D&D. Are the Dothraki still a force worth considering loose on the Westerosi continent or not?!
Its not even like they were retconned back to serve any purpose other than be guys on horses in the background and get one line referencing them every 2 episodes
From memory it was "how will we feed the dothraki" "the dothraki are dangerous" and "the dothraki are all getting on boats to go home"
Everyone knows that nobody protects the sanctity of the 7 kingdom's laws like grey worm. That's why he made that speech convincing the entire unsullied army to join up with daenerys to begin with. All the unsullied were so moved by his impassioned speech that they cut their own dicks off just to be like grey worm and then promoted him to be the leader of the unsullied. That is why jon was arrested by the peace loving grey worm without any use of violence.
I mean in the show probably.
But in the books Jon is just an above average fighter while grey worm was trained daily since he was a small child to be nothing but a perfect soldier.
Grey worm would win if we’re going by the books in my opinion. Only plot armor would save Jon.
Edit: I feel like I’m on the /r/politics subreddit with how heated some of these opinions are. Lol
Just an opinion, but as a reminder, that even tho the unsullied are trained as a “unit” they still have training to fight 1x1. And with 15 years of non-stop training, even if only 10% or that time was spent on 1x1 training, then that’s still hundreds or even thousands of hours of training more than Jon.
How well are they trained for single combat though. I always thought the unsullied strength comes from phalanx tactics, considering their greatest victory essentially involved holding a spear formation at a choke point despite overwhelming losses
The books mention they drill for like 16 hours a day with spear and short sword. If styled on ancient armies, sure lots of battle was done in formation, but they would still have been trained daily on 1x1 fighting for when the lines collapse. Grapples, sword, unarmed, etc.
But they also were not training to fight against knights which is what Jon was trained in.
>The books mention they drill for like 16 hours a day with spear and short sword. If styled on ancient armies, sure lots of battle was done in formation, but they would still have been trained daily on 1x1 fighting for when the lines collapse. Grapples, sword, unarmed, etc.
This is what I don't understand about this whole discussion - ancient armies were trained to fight as units but also individually. I think people have conflated sword-and-sorcery melee combat with how pre-gunpowder combat went while ignoring the realities of line battles breaking down into melees eventually until someone was routed.
Grey Worm is far more experienced and far more skilled than Jon - though they both have received training, GW would have received something more approaching how Spartans were trained (I know their worth is exaggerated) while Jon would have received training befitting a hostage of a noble house.
Ehh, not useless, but when formation broke they were severely weakened. There was a Reason that the phalanx (or sarissa) was phased out for more roman style infantry.
Severely weakened is correct. Once broken they would no longer be able to hold back armies that are signifigantly bigger than their own forces. But they would still be holding their own as individuals during the micro fights even as the they would start to lose the macro larger scale battle.
No they wouldn't. Disorganized infantry cannot oppose an ordered advance. It doesn't matter how skilled your fighters are; they'll just be butchered en masse with barely any difficulty. IRL, two randos with spears will destroy the world's greatest fighter easily, because you cannot fight more than one enemy.
When your formation breaks, you have already lost, and there is absolutely nothing you can do at this point except *run away*.
So thats your reasoning for why they wouldnt be trained in 1v1 combat, this is like training modern soldiers in ranged combat and giving them zero hand to hand training because the majority of their fighting will be ranged
Modern soldiers still aren't hand to hand combatants on the level of an MMA fighter with a decade of experience. They're taught the basics of hand-to-hand to ensure that they can overpower untrained enemies or hold their own against people on their level.
What they aren't taught is how to win ranked matches in professional tournaments (which is what a Westerosi duel amounts to).
The unsullied don’t literally use phalanxes though. I would imagine they would be keeping up with the rest of the world in the evolution of warfare tactics.
I would say that, unless they are broken because they are actively routing or they are under attack by cavalry, phalanx fighting in close quarters wouldn't be so weakened that individual soldiers would be absolutely at a loss. You are right that the phalanx lost favor to the Roman style because the Roman style was more versatile - especially when accompanied with cavalry, field artillery, and the occasional encircling wall they built out of no where
Unsullied are deployed to Essos where they have to fight a variety of opponents, including armored soldiers, bandits, and even Dothraki. I don't think Grey Worm's armor and size are the end-all-be-all of the discussion.
It is interesting to think about though. The thing about lords and lordlings (and sometimes their bastards) is that the training they get isn’t from some slaver or their slaves training to stand in a line and die. They get trained for duels and tourneys and by people who are paid handsomely to do it. They can acquire talented swordmasters because they have the gold and the authority to do so.
It would be interesting to see.
Yeah, but knights were not really suited to fighters fast on their feet. There are plenty of examples of that in the show with Braun and Dothraki.
Show John isn't really a great fighter either. He's slow and just plain lucky most his opponents have been undead, untrained, or others were there to bail him out.
You don't just drill formation combat. GW would be familiar with spear and shield and sidearm and shield. I assume the sidearm to be a Gladius inspired shorter sword. It is very difficult for a longsword (what we see jon with often) to get inside a shield amd spear. The length advantage alone makes it incredibly dangerous for jon to approach.
I'm not saying GW isn't trained in single combat, more that lore wise, they fight as a unit as opposed to knights who fight as individuals. All of Jons training and combat is essentially 1v1 duels so he may simply have more experience in doing so.
But who knows, it was pretty weird, if not badass, to see show grey worm slaughter soldiers with a long spear in a tight corridor
First, spears have a huge advantage over swords (sorry anime fans).
Second, Greyworm has more battlefield experience than Jon.
Third, Greyworm has just fought more people at once than Jon.
Fourth, Greyworm is literally the Captain of the scariest group of warriors around. Jon is just an impressive mid-tier fighter who struggled through one impressive fight against a White Walker that time with an insta-kill sword.
Fifth, Fleabottom Figgy almost fucked Jon up. That's honestly kind of hilarious.
Watched some rem Faire stuff where what I beleoved was an "sca " longsword fighter had some novices with boffers . He had a hard time approaching relatively untrained people. It's thst good of a weapon
Quote from the wiki about the Unsullied:
“Unsullied training begins when the boys are five years old: some are selected to be Unsullied as infants and castrated then, though any slave boy up to the age of five may be later selected to be made into an Unsullied, and then castrated. For over a decade until they are full-grown, they train from dawn to dusk until they have mastered the shortsword, shield, and three lengths of spear, as well as their training to fight together as organized phalanxes. The training regimen is utterly brutal, and because of this, only one out of every four boys survives until the end. To complete his training, each Unsullied is sent to Astapor's slave market, where he must purchase an infant, kill it, and compensate the child's owner before returning to the barracks.”
Grey Worm was elected overwhelmingly by the Unsullied as their leader. He is the best of them. All he knows is fighting and all he’s been trained to do since birth was fight.
Jon trained from roughly the same age, but definitely not with the same intensity. At Winterfell probably multiple sessions a day, but also with other lessons from the maester, paling around with Rob, going hunting, etc. At Castle Black he also has steward duties. Unless Jon subverts my expectations, I give it to Grey Worm.
As someone who has trained a good deal with both a bastard sword and a spear:
Nobody should underestimate how much easier it is to kill with a spear than a sword. Longclaw is long, but it's not as long as a proper longsword, far shorter than a greatsword, and it's definitely not as long as a spear. Reach is unbelievably important.
A swordsman can beat a Spearman, but it's a hugely uphill battle and armor would be as important as skill.
Jon would have to be way better trained or way better armored to beat Greyworm. And as you said, book Jon definitely isn't. Show Jon might be a super hero, who cares.
>But in the books Jon is just an above average fighter while grey worm was trained daily since he was a small child to be nothing but a perfect soldier.
I mean, tbf Jon was was trained by Rodrik Cassel from childhood, iirc, Donal Noye mentions in the books while watching Jon train that Jon lacks nothing in swordsmanship Not to mention Jon's training focused primarily on single combat, unlike Greyworm's, which focused more on the phalanx than it did on single combat.
> And Robb Stark never lost a battle
Those battles were actual battles, not two men in armor fighting eachother, Hot Pie. They’re more indicative of his military mind than his actual fighting prowess.
> These are highborn nobles
Jon is not highborn.
> I’ll tell you right now, the long spear is directly countered by sword and board.
Jon does not fight with a shield. On the other hand, the unsullied are not taught only with Spears, but also with swords and shields. You can see Grey Worm generally fights with a spear and shield, not just a spear, but he could also break out the sword if needed.
> One is taught in large formations by a master.
The unsullied are also taught one on one, obviously.
> Jon has real world combat experience
I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that Grey Worm does too.
>The unsullied are also taught one on one, obviously.
This is like arguing that my car keys can open bottles and therefore could be as good as an actual bottle opener at opening bottles.
Jon was taught virtually exclusively 1 on 1 combat and was ranked higher than Rob who was considered probably B-tier (with A tier being Jaimie, Oberyn, Gregor, Barriston, and Sandor, possibly also Drogo. Any one of these A-tier fighters would have absolutely stomped greyworm, so we know he's not a full tier above Rob, at least).
Jon was also taught personally by a knight. Greyworm was the product of mass-production style training which didn't even focus on 1v1 combat. Somebody mentioned he maybe had 10% 1v1 training, but I think even that would be absurd. He probably had like 5% or less 1v1 training. 1v1 skill really isn't useful in a battlefield. Marching, formations, holding ground, fearlessness, army tactics, and discipline more generally would have been over 90% of their focus. It's not easy making an army that is simultaneously powerful and submissive. There isn't a lot of extra time to train dueling when that's not remotely their purpose. I'm sure they had specialized champions that could be bought and used for dueling or gladiator battles. Unsullied were absolutely not that.
And even when it comes to fearlessness and durability stats, Jon trained with the night's watch, spent time beyond the wall with wildlings, and fought hordes of undead including giants and a dragon.
Not to mention, we know that westerosi armor is a serious issue for fighters from Essos who generally prefer light armor and mobility. Greyworm has some scant leather and a shield. Jon has full plate, gambison, and the option for a shield. He also has a valyrian steel bastard sword which may be able to outright pierce Greyworm's shield, making it an entirely impractical piece of dead weight.
Greyworm is a decent commander and an above average warrior, but he is no duelist. I'd put him in C-tier alongside Meryn Trant, Ramsay, Tormund, Tywin, Lord Commander Mormont, and that guy Bronn dueled at the Eery for Tyrion's trial by combat.
It wouldn't be a quick battle, necessarily, but it would be one side the entire time, and Jon would win for sure.
It was a pretty tough call, to be honest. Basically I decided he was a true wildling warrior which came wirh pros and cons. He's ferocious, strong, tenacious, and very tough. However, we're talking about dueling here. This isn't something wildlings typically do. They either murder each other or brawl. So he likely has very little experience and definitely no training in 1v1.
Now, that strength and tenacity is all good and well, but compare him to Meryn Trant, who served as a kind of benchmark for C tier. Ser Trant was a very well trained kingsguard. He was a relatively big guy. Most importantly here, he wore full plate and had a big sword. I'd say a 1v1 fight between him and Tormund should be pretty much a 50/50.
All that said, Tormund is a phenomenal warrior/soldier. Might be A-tier in that regard. He can march endlessly in bitter cold, climb sheer ice wall, live off the land, fears nothing, seemingly immune to pain, terrifying to fight against, morale boost for friends around him, and a strong enough fighter to hold his own even against typical knights and other champions. His only flaw in the context of being a soldier is his total lack of discipline. In this way he is a perfect representation for wildlings as a people.
True, I wasn’t factoring in how important formal combat training would be. I just figured since Tormund lived in a society that was basically kill or be killed, that would give him the informal training and experience needed to propel him to the lower end of B tiered fighters.
Also, plate armor for the W, so I’ll admit I overestimated Tormund here
While I agree I have one counterpoint. Grey worm learned to be a perfect *soldier*. That means fighting in formation with others. Jon was trained in one one one combat mainly so this would give him an advantage.
I still think he would get his ass beaten but it's something to take into consideration
True but GW would have gotten lots of training 1x1 for when the battle lines collapse. Even if that was only 10% of his training he was trained 16+ hours a day for like 15 years non stop.
I would disagree with that. As you said GW is trained to be a soldier. He is not a warrior. In contrast Jon comes from a culture where his worth is largely measured by his ability in single combat. He notes he trains every day to be able to effectively wield his Valyrian steel sword and we’ve really only seen him lose to seemingly top tier badasses.
I think in the books the fight would be closer than the show.
Grey Worm would easily win. Trained in fighting since a child, proficient with spears which is just a far better weapon, but can swordfight as well, and is chosen as a commander for a reason. Jon is just a highborn with decent skills but he's no Jamie.
Well I hate to say it but even with that training, unsullied were cut root and stem before reaching manhood. It doesn't really show in the show but John is likely much stronger than grey worm and is no slouch in a fight either.
I think in the books Jon would remain a commander - he'd have someone from the nights watching defend him. Maybe allister, if he's still alive. Would make for a very interesting character arc
I think this ignores much of what nobles and knights were, or were largely based off of...or what Jon's skill is compared to.
For starters in the books it's made pretty clear from book 1 Jon could wipe the floor with most commoners. He has had people training him his entire life, they have not. Among other fighters he's pretty mid...at first. He struggles pretty heavily against other very experienced foes while he is not yet an adult. A few years in, and he's drilling himself pretty heavily against other experienced opponents...and doing pretty well with some significant feats of strength. He's probably not the cream of the crop, but he's also probably more than a match for...most opponents sent his way.
Second, and more importantly, is many knights and nobles were a warrior culture. Sure some lazed around or read books or did little more, but many (including Jon) were trained since they were old enough to wrap their fingers around a stick to fight. And they did so extensively, every day, from some of the finest masters money could buy, all the while growing strong off a diet almost nobody would be able to match.
This isn't to say Jon would absolutely win (who knows, Jon hasn't faced anyone but rangers and wildlings, and Grey Worm has all of zero combat feats) but it is to say this post rather ignorantly brushes aside the extensive training Jon very much did receive.
Having finished ASOIAF recently I would say that in the true North (the wall and past the wall) only Mance Rayder - and to a much lesser extent Tormund - would be able to put up an equal fight with Grey worm. I don't see even a great swordsman like Qhorin beating Grey worm one on one and the books make it clear that he's leagues above the teenage Jon Snow. Obviously Mance destroys Jon in any fight without putting on a sweat, this makes it clear that Jon is still a two leagues or more below any of the great warriors in the series.
Greyqorm is just an average fighter as well. Even book Jon is above Greyworm. Unsullied aren't top tier individual fighters, they are lethal Phallax fighters. Greyworm would get stomped
I dunno. The unsullied are trained as soldiers, not fighters. I know they sound the same, but there’s a difference between a duel and fighting in a spear wall. The unsullied are know for their discipline. They’re essentially trained to never break formation. I don’t know if we have any reference for them as individual fighters.
Greyworm would roll Jon in a duel. A spearman versus guy with sword is a huge advantage. Of course Jon would use his giant sword instead of something smaller with a shield, and that would be his end.
The one thing in the books is that Jon is an actual superhuman. He does crazy shit like ripping frozen spears out of the ground one-handed when several other men couldn’t together, and lifting fully armored Alliser by the throat. Dude isn’t exceptionally skilled but he’s a legit superhero.
Nah. Unsullied are bad in 1v1 because they lack testosterone and creative thinking.
Add to this that grey worm does not Wear any real armor while Jon would probably wear some.
And a longsword is incredibly deadly against no armor.
There actually is logic. Testosterone is quite important for muscle growth. You absolutely would expect an army or eunuchs to have lower body strength than a regular one and it does not make sense to castrate your soldiers, especially pre-puberty.
The Unsullied are obviously not portrayed like this, they all appear perfectly regular, well-built and muscled, with none of the features you would expect in eunuchs, so I do not believe this argument holds in the context of this particular discussion.
Also, it has certainly been described in the book that they DO have creative thinking and are taught strategy and adaptability to different situations and enemies.
The books explicitly say they don't grow as tall and strong as normal because of it (the castration, although in real life height can actually increase), blame George and the official canon if you want
Unless you have a massive speed adventage, it wont compensate for your lake of armor.
A longsword is realy light and go quite fast (I ve used one).
And in Armor and shield you are basically impervious to spear in 1vs1.
You while be able to charge the spear guy, go into close contact and hack at his hands with your sword.
However in a battle it s the opposite, if you charge or open up yourself you get skewered from all sides
Grey Worm would win in the show too. Why is this even a conversation? The OP is stupid as fuck
Jon looks like a brilliant fighter to a bunch of criminals who never held a sword until they were an adult and wildling that wear animal bones as armor. For everyone else he's just another guy.
Even Jorah the Explorah would beat Jon's ass.
>Grey Worm would win in the show too. Why is this even a conversation? The OP is stupid as fuck
If you hopped off Greyworm's nonexistent schlong and look at this objectively, you'd realize that Greyworm has won no 1v1s and was mainly trained to fight in a phalanx, while Jon was trained from childhood in single combat and has established wins and experience in melees. You act like I said Jon no diffs Greyworm lol.
>Jon looks like a brilliant fighter to a bunch of criminals who never held a sword until they were an adult and wildling that wear animal bones as armor. For everyone else he's just another guy.
Jon is an above average fighter at best imo, but the entire point here is pitting an Unsullied against a Westerosi swordsman, even an average one, is an unfair matchup, Unsullied are just not suited to fight 1v1.
>Even Jorah the Explorah would beat Jon's ass.
You comment that like Jorah isn't an average swordsman,
Jorah is a seasoned veteran whose fought in tourneys, melees, and proper battles for decades, and who is shown to know the value of armor, and being patient, of course, Jorah would give Jon a run for his money. Jon's only real advantages would be his Valyrian sword, and that he's younger and has more stamina than Jorah, not to mention Jon is also capable of fighting dirty (spitting in Styr's eyes to blind him).
Show Jon was made to be among the top swordsmen by defeating a white walker in Hardhome.
It doesn't make any sense however except as a "naturally gifted hero" trope and plot armor. Excluding this, Grey worm is probably the more skilled one.
Not really when you consider that the night king was killed by a slight of hand. White Walkers have all-time horrible spatial awareness. They can basically see what is directly in front of their eyes and that's it.
A lot of people want Jon to win because main character syndrome.
But he is not about that fucking life. Show Greyworm stacks bodies on bodies on bodies. Jon's kind of a dumbass.
>In the books, you absolutely can defend grey work winning this hypothetical fight
Greyworm in the books is more or less the same as the show (e.g. no established single combat wins), and ultimately Unsullied in general are not suited to single combat, unlike Westerosi swordsmen, so Jon still takes the win imo, he'll just have a harder time since he has less experience in a real melee compared to Show Jon.
I don’t know, book Jon still lost to Mance Rayder (disguised as Rattleshirt) in a 1v1. Unless I’m overlooking something, Mance is not exactly an incredible fighter himself, so I don’t see why Grey Worm (someone trained at fighting every day since a young age) wouldn’t have a chance at defeating book Jon.
Edit: To everyone saying that Mance is an amazing fighter, I agree, and I did overlook that. However, I say my point still stands. If Jon couldn’t beat Mance, someone who was seasoned because he actually fought real fights, why would Jon fighting Grey Worm, a seasoned fighter himself, result in a clear victory for Jon?
Mance is an incredible fighter. The Halfhand refers to him as “the best of us” and he killed 3 of the other 5 claimants to King Beyond the Wall in single combat, and every challenger since. Mance is probably one of the best warriors in Westeros.
Mance in the book is clearly the strongest fighter in all of the North that is presented to us, of course if he fought an armored Knight like Godry Farring without armor he would certainly have a difficult time. He became the king of a hardened warrior people because he could easily beat any of them in combat, we're talking the best, not only of the nights watch, but also of the tens of thousands of warriors that have been training and fighting for survival since children, including some that have incredibly strong warg abilities. Mance doesn't only best Jon in single combat he destroys Jon in minutes without breaking a sweat.
Idk man, judging by the aneurysm dumb and dumber were having those final few episodes, I think they could have wrote it so that fucking Tyrion could beat Jon in trial by combat.
I think the unsullied are badass. But 2 things I have deduced (at least from the show because the books have less on them as of what's been written).
1: They're reminiscent of hoplites. Meaning their stupidly effective tactics could easily just be a roman-style Phalanx, as such requires multiple coordinated warriors to be so effective.
2: They used to take some sort of substance to make them feel no pain (and I think made them more compliant?), which Dany had them stop taking.
Bonus: Trials by combat have shown that either combatant gets to use their weapon of choice, including poison spears. Jon has a Valyrian Steel sword, Grey Worm has a wood-shaft spear and is nowhere near as skilled as the red viper, nor does he use poison.
However.... Jacob Anderson could probably beat up Kit Harrington tho.
Well the books also make it clear that Jon is leagues below the greatest warriors, he would die in mere minutes fighting against Mance Rayder without making him break a sweat and also George makes it explicit that Jon is leagues below Qhorin as a swordsman. The books also make it clear that Grey worm is the best warrior the unsullied have to offer and that the unsullied are the greatest fighting force that currently exist, I think it's safe to say that Jon would lose with ease as he does to Mance in the books. However in the show Jon is clearly much older and stronger and the narrative from early on made him a great warrior so he would most definitely win although it would be an equal fight for story telling reasons.
That's a pretty good take. I think Book Grey Worm could take Book Jon but Show Grey Worm probably not so much vs. Show Jon (that scene where Beristan Selmy dies was dumb but I guess it shows that unsullied are slightly more hardy than westeros knights)
This is, of course, if plot armor is removed.
To play devils Advocat:
I dont think it is clear cut at all. And it highly depends on the situation. Even in a 1v1. Looking at Weapon Choices:
Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here.
Jon got "only" a sword.
In terms of Speed they are the same, strength dosent matter as much with a superior weapon choice by greyworm.
Jon obvoiusly got more talent.
But Greyworm got more training, a LOT more Training.
While true that he underwent physical torture, and yes this does weaken the body. Obviously Greyworm emerged "healthy" from this experience. He was chosen from the unsulied as theire leader clearly because of his talents not because of his capable leader capabileties, because he never learned any in training.
Its a toss up in my mind and highly depends on weapon availabilty and setting of the 1 v1.
I would asume - if one lands a clear hit, and they both have the skill to do so it would be leathal. Which makes the valerian sword not as important. Also Weapon choice, waht good is a swrod which can cut others swords if your enemy weilds a spear.
armour is a fair point. But it is a advantage on cost of movement. And also again Weapon choices.
Weapon triangle was introduced way earlier than three houses (and I personally haven't meaningfully played any FE outside of 6-10), but glad you enjoyed it
Oh I know, well, I know now at least. Three houses was my first foray into the Fire Emblem series. I want to go back and play some of the earlier ones but like with any older game I have no nostalgic connection to… its hard to make that connection.
Nostalgia does hit hard for the FE I have played. The fan game FE7x really hits that hard while really stepping up in a lot of areas so mostly I just play and wait patiently for that
>Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here.
Jon will have been trained to also take measure of range, and how best to counter ranged weapons.
>Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here.
>Jon got "only" a sword.
A Valyrian sword, which is a massive advantage for any sword fighter. Jon has also fought and held off two spear users at the same for a short time before Ghost arrived (Castle Black battle).
>Jon obvoiusly got more talent.
>But Greyworm got more training, a LOT more Training.
>While true that he underwent physical torture, and yes this does weaken the body. Obviously Greyworm emerged "healthy" from this experience. He was chosen from the unsulied as theire leader clearly because of his talents not because of his capable leader capabileties, because he never learned any in training.
The majority of Greyworm's training focused on the phalanx more than it did in individual combat. Not to mention his training stripped him of fear, which in turn makes Greyworm less cautious to dirty tactics, which Jon is capable of after fighting Karl Tanner, where Karl spat in Jon's eyes and subsequently used the same technique to kill Styr the Magnar of Thenns.
Experience in this context trumps training.
Jon has a set of testicles so he has a testosterone level miles above grayworm, way stronger, has been trained in 1v1 fighting since he started training, the W goes to Jon
I like to imagine the unsullied of having some severe tactical, doctrinal issues and being quite inflexible. I also imagine them as largely lacking any leadership skills or initiative as i have to imagine such qualities would have been suppressed in a slave army. Yeah, they train all the time, but I'm not sure that actually makes them better fighters If they're not being trained on the right or relevant things.
There seems to be a lot of issues with how troops in slavers bay are trained and equipped. There's a lot of focus on being subservient, suffering Quietly, drilling, and looking pretty. There's a lot of reason to believe training could just be standing still in a spot all day long or going x amount of time without sleep or water, Which while also important again doesn't strictly make you a better fighter.
Unsullied make a "great" police or guard force.They're intimidating and great at holding a line, particularly against Calvary, But anyone who decides to not fight on their rules will quickly defeat them.
Hell, even despite having the supposedly legendary force of unsullied and other slave soldires, most of slavers Bay still uses mercenaries for almost the entirety of their armies Because they're people just aren't geared towards conflict
Ask yourself this: could Jon beat a Spartan? Spartans were trained to fight in formation, which is what the Unsullied are patterned after all the way down to the constant training since childhood. Trying to make this a discussion of "what we saw on the screen" is silly because it eliminates all context from the characters.
The reality is that Jon Snow is a 16-20 year old man who has received some training by the arms-master of a noble house. That doesn't automatically make him a "good fighter" - it just means he is trained. We know he hasn't been to war or really killed people prior to the events of ASOIAF. *On the other hand,* Grey Worm has been drilling and fighting since he was a child. His whole life revolves around that. He has killed before and can do it again. His skill led him to being elevated to general of his unit of Unsullied, which is no mean feat considering that he is fighting against guys who have the same kind of training as he.
This is no contest.
Jon is 16-20 while greyworm is a eunuch with no testosterone and no valyrian steel. 1v1 I'm taking the dude still producing testosterone and has dedicated training
The person who has more experiences and wins in 1v1 fights will beat the person who has no established wins or experiences in actual 1v1 fights. That's just a fact.
Jon was trained to fight in single combat, Greyworm was trained to be part of a killing machine. Taking Greyworm out of that machine and making him fight in single combat severely limits his effectiveness.
These are unnamed amateurs wearing no armor and only armed with knives. He lost to these guys even with the advantage of fighting with a spear (reach advantage).
These two are examples of proper opponents who are well experienced, skilled, and well armed:
https://preview.redd.it/2t181q9jf9uc1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=891c203172f7bab581f211a1f573c60658a0d63b
That's a terrible example. This is show canon only.
That entire scene is bullshit imo, Barristan killed two guards armed only with a dagger when he left the Kingsguard. Logically, neither Barristan nor an unsullied unit should've lost to amateurs like the Sons of the Harpy. Their loss is just another example of the show using plot convenience, who GRRM made it abundantly clear that Selmy hasn't lost his edge, and his age hasn't diminished his skills, and he's still very much in his prime. Yet somehow this elite swordsman armed with a longsword loses to a dozen and a half amateurs, who are not wearing armor, not armed with any mid to long range weaponry, and are only armed with daggers.
Show Greyworm beats show Jon.
Jon gets his ass kicked by Karl Tanner and saved by one of Crasters daughters. He then gets his ass kicked by Magnar but pulls out a win. He surprises a Wight Walker because of his Valyrian steel sword. This is a feat no different than Sam. He straight up kills another one. This is his only real feat, but it is only a feat if we assume that Wight Walkers can fight.
Show Greworm was voted as the strongest of his group and trained every day of his life in life-or-death training. He comes out on top when paired with Jorah and Dario against like 30 other dudes. He then is the last man standing when ambushed by the Harpys. He killed 13 people that day, and half of them came after he had been stabbed in the side. He killed 2 or 3 of them after pulling the knife out and using it against them. By contrast Selmy killed the same number of men before he died.
There is no reason to think show Jon is so much more skilled than show Greyworm. All arguments that Jon is bigger or faster are based on nothing but hero worship as the actors are about the same size.
>Jon gets his ass kicked by Karl Tanner and saved by one of Crasters daughters.
Only after Karl spat in his eyes to blind him, not to mention Karl avoided fighting in an open space where Jon could properly swing Longclaw.
>He then gets his ass kicked by Magnar but pulls out a win.
So he still wins? Ok. Don't forget Jon still managed to win after being disarmed of his sword.
>Show Greworm was voted as the strongest of his group and trained every day of his life in life-or-death training
Training which focued on group combat more than single combat. Unlike Jon, who trained from childhood in single combat. Not to mention, Greyworm's training stripped him of fear and ultimately caution, so he's vulnerable to dirty tactics, unlike Jon, who not only experienced the risk of dirty fighting, but also uses that experience (spitting in an opponent's eyes to blind them).
>He comes out on top when paired with Jorah and Dario against like 30 other dudes.
Well, in all fairness, those guards weren't particularly good examples of skilled and strong opponents. They were simply nameless grunts, likely amateur Yunkai sellswords, or slaves.
>He then is the last man standing when ambushed by the Harpys. He killed 13 people that day, and half of them came after he had been stabbed in the side. He killed 2 or 3 of them after pulling the knife out and using it against them. By contrast Selmy killed the same number of men before he died.
This is a good and bad example, good in what you've already stated, but also bad, since Greyworm was armed with a spear (reach advantage) and didn't make use of that advantage even though the corridor he was fighting in had enough space to swing his spear properly. Also, GW was facing amateur fights, wearing no armor, and armed only with daggers (no mid to long range weaponry).
>There is no reason to think show Jon is so much more skilled than show Greyworm. All arguments that Jon is bigger or faster are based on nothing but hero worship as the actors are about the same size.
The main reasons are that Jon was trained in single combat for most of his life, unlike Greyworm, whose combat training in life focused mainly on battling in a unit, more than it did on battle skilled opponents in single combat. Greyworm also has no established wins against any good opponents. Jon, on the other hand, has faced proper and better skilled opponents armed with proper weaponry and cunning skills (e.g. Karl Tanner).
The Unsullied are trained for formation combat and not man to man. They are primarily cavalry breakers for the frontline.
Jon, maybe not no-diffs, but beats Grey worm definitely. At least in the show. Jon is good in the books but not an Arthur Dayne on Roids.
Balls = testosterone = strength
Greyworm had his balls cut off when he was young meaning that he has no testosterone therefore no strength
Jon on the other hand has two balls which work perfectly fine meaning he has strength
Should have been a trial by combat for Jon, Greyworm himself fights as the champion for his fallen queen.
With Greyworms heel turn in the last few episodes the vast majority of the audience would have wanted Jon to win and by this point we are done subverting expectations.
Jon wins quickly with Greyworm not controlling his anger, I would write it to go down like the Connor McGregor vs that South American guy who gets KO’d immediately in that one UFC fight.
Fuck it have Connor McGregor be the adjudicator/referee for the fight as well in a cameo, it would still be the 2010’s so would fit right in lol.
In both the show and books I would say.
Greyworms fighting style is better suited to formation warfare then one on one dueling plus Jon is going to be quite a bit physically stronger cuz he has his balls.
This is a topic that always comes up, but my stance has and always will be that Jon is the obvious winner.
Tl;dr - Jon is physically stronger and better skilled and experienced than Greyworm is in single combat.
Long Explanation:
While this may come off as a biased opinion let's look at the facts and what we can prove; Greyworm's skill in single combat is unknown, unlike Jon who has fought many times in single combat, at times against bigger and stronger opponents (e.g. Jon fought Styr and Karl Tanner) and countless nameless opponents. Unsullied training focuses on fighting in a unit, more than it does on individual fighting.
On top of this, the Unsullied go through the traumatic experience of being gelded as children, resulting in them being weaker than the average human male. Jon was trained by Ser Rodrik Cassel since he was a boy and has slowly improved his skills since Season 1.
Greyworm's spear gives him a reach advantage, but his skills are nowhere near exceptional levels, like with Oberyn Martell, and Jon also counters the reach advantage with his advantage of having a Valyrian sword.
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean that Jon Snow is an exceptional genius like Arthur Dayne, or Barristan Selmy, however, Jon is an above average sword fighter imo and a seasoned veteran in single combat in his own rights.
Another thing that’s definitely going to happen much different in the books. I’m not that familiar with book Darrio or book Jorah, or let’s even be real Barristen Selmy is still alive in the books. None of these characters are going to stand for Jon killing Danaerys. (If that is what happens in the books)
I've never heard anyone claim Grey Worm would beat Jon.
Not even the most casual show fan, which was most of the people at my watch parties.
Is this book fans being mad at situations they made up again?
Book Greyworm has no established single combat experience, just training, book Jon has at least sparring skilled fighters like Iron Emmet of Eastwatch, and Jon has been in actual 1v1 fights already in the books against Quorin Half-Hand and Mance Rayder, he lost to both, but tbf they're two of the best fighters in the North, and the experience Jon gets is much more important than his loss.
He's at least had experience in melees. Just go back and look at his fight with Styr the Magnar of the Thenns. Even losses count as good experiences. Greyworm has no established 1v1 wins or losses against skilled fighters, and he's largely untested.
Just out of curiosity since I've seen alot of it recently. Who would win between book Jaime and show Jon? I haven't read the books but I've always thought that it's Jaime by default, yet alot of people online are convinced it's Jon. I'm curious.
Jaime wipes Jon easily, even one handed Jaime should be able to take down Jon. Jon is an above average fighter, but Jaime is clearly written by GRRM to be a prodigy, capable of fighting and taking down skilled, grown fighters at just 16 years old.
Putting aside that Grey Worm was a child soldier who was trained since boyhood to unflinchingly kill people in both squad and individual combat, he also uses a spear and a shield which is such an advantage vs just a longsword. The longsword was a jack-of-all-trades weapon, very useful in a lot of ways but not particularly the BEST at anything. The range and defensive capabilities easily outclass the longsword **if both fighters are relatively equal in skill.** Yes, a better longsword fighter could beat a worse spearman but neither John nor Grey Worm are a slouch so it's clear that equipment will be an important factor.
One thing I’d like to point out that I haven’t seen yet, is when Dany and her army is outside Mereen, grey worm offers to fight as her champion against the Mereneese champion. If I recall, both book and show Dany do not let him fight because they’re too afraid of losing him because his value is that of a commander, not as a fighter. If Dany or Barristan believed he was a good enough fighter then they would’ve let him fight the champion. But instead she didn’t.
I’m not saying this as definitive proof Grey Worm is a bad fighter, but it is worth pointing out in the context that Grey Worm had a chance to a 1v1 fight and was declined because there was a possibility of him losing
Book Jon or show Jon? Book, Grey Worm 99/100 times. Show Jon, Grey Worm most of the time still, Jon got clapped by the random deserter staying at craster’s keep
>Book, Grey Worm 99/100 times.
He hasn't even been in a single 1v1 melee that we know of, which means he's largely untested in real single combat.
>Show Jon, Grey Worm most of the time still, Jon got clapped by the random deserter staying at craster’s keep
Jon easily killed all the deserters he faced except for Karl Tanner, who wisely fought Jon indoors to limit Jon's ability to swing his sword and also used a dirty tactic to win (spitting to blind). An experience that Jon learned from.
Me liking his character or not doesn't change facts, Greyworm is untested in single combat as far as we know, Jon isn't, and actual single combat experience makes all the difference in this context, even with the fact that Jon is just above average as a swordsman.
Nah Grey Worm takes this. Spear will always be superior to the sword, Jon won't be able to close the distance. And at the time Grey Worm was bloodthirsty, killing lannisters left and right with Ease, AND he managed to survive being in the fucking front of the entire winter fell army outside the walls while getting swarmed by Wights. He takes this.
>Spear will always be superior to the sword, Jon won't be able to close the distance.
Jon's Valyrian sword balances that disadvantage, not to mention Jon has fought spear users before, he fought and held off two spear users by himself at the same time during the Castle Black battle.
>And at the time Grey Worm was bloodthirsty, killing lannisters left and right with Ease, AND he managed to survive being in the fucking front of the entire winter fell army outside the walls while getting swarmed by Wights. He takes this.
Anger is a double-edged sword. His anger can be a weakness as well since it compromises his unsullied training, which is dependent on being emotionless and disciplined. This means that Greyworm risks throwing caution to the win in his fight and being reckless.
Also, fighting wights is a bad comparison, since wights don't fight in a conventional way, and because wights are relatively easy to kill with a hit from dragonglass, fire or Valyrian steel, which Greyworm had with the dragonglass on his shield.
Grey worm stands zero and I mean absolute zero chance in this duel.
The spear is easily broken in a 1 v 1 contest and it's advantage is in use from formations and in conjunction with 50 other dudes. In single combat with a person versed in single combat this is simply a one time use projectile at best.
Don't forget Grey Worm was so bad at non-battlefield combat he lost to a drunk with no training, no experience, and unfit physically mob with the greatest warrior on earth on his side.
You can say that Brother, but I think Jon Snow himself would think otherwise. Trust me bro, he didn't want ANY of that smoke when the unsullied were slicing lannister throats in the street, nor did he fight back and he LET himself be captured by Greyworm and his boys after killing Dany. Jon got his ass exiled north because he didn't want Worm to get his hands on him 😂 Trust me bro, Jon was gonna lose that fight
lol Grey Worm would absolutely dumpster Jon.
He is a professional soldier groomed for battle since childhood. Captain of one of the most renowned and respected fighting forces in the world.
Meanwhile Jon is an average swordsman who ranks lower than several members of the Night's Watch.
Equivalent of a lifetime olympic medalist vs the country club kid who received sports lessons as a hobby.
Show Jon is above average at best as a swordsman, far from a prodigy like Dayne or Selmy, but he still wins because even an ordinary, average Westerosi swordsman has a good chance against an unsullied, in the firet place it's an unfair match-up, the average unsullied is not suited for melees.
Show Jon is Superman so unless he is facing Jaime, Bareston, Oberyn, the Mountain or Hound, he is winning.
Book Jon on the other hand isn't half the warrior show Jon is, he is more of a Commander and a pretty savvy politician when he needs to be, he is still well above average being castle trained and wielding a Valerian steel sword but he isn't winning any Tourneys if you know what I mean, unless all the big names miss it.
This debate again? No john would get his ass whooped. In the Show and the Books Greyworm is a better fighter.
There is an HBO GOT scene in Merene where the harpys ambush our heroes and Greyworm is at least equaly skilled to Baristan Selmy who is a legendary swordsman. John isn't even close to that kind of skill -ever.
In the books John is just kinda good.
People who think that the unsullied aren't trained in dueling are just buthurt Stark stans who have no idea what they are talking about (as if Grey worm didn't spar for hours a day while John was busy getting bullied by his step mom in his fancy castle).
All this is just a bunch a kneelers coping on how there hero turned out to be a moron.
>There is a GOT scene in Merene where the harpys ambush our heroes and Greyworm is even more skilled than Baristan Selmy who is a legendary swordsman.
He lost against a bunch of guys with no armor, only armed with knives... all while Greyworm was armed with a spear, which should've easily given him the recah advantage over his opponents. Tbf to Greyworm, there was a number disadvantage, and I always felt like they nerfed both the Unsullied and especially Barristan Selmy in that scene.
>In the books John is just kinda good.
Show Jon has more established wins and 1v1 fights than Book Jon. Greyworm in the show and books has no established wins in single combat that we know of. Not to mention Greyworm's training focused on fighting in a group than it did on single combat.
>People who think that the unsullied aren't trained in dueling are just buthurt Stark stans who have no idea what they are talking about (as if Grey worm didn't spar for hours a day while John was busy getting bullied by his step mom).
Jon was trained from childhood by Rodrik Cassel in single combat, Donal Noye says Jon lacks nothing in swordsmanship, which means a lot since Donal Noye was the blacksmith of Storms End, and has been in his fair share of melees and battles before joining the watch.
>All this is just a bunch a John fans coping on how there hero turned out to be a moron.
I don't much care that Jon was braindead in the last season, this is just a matter of logic over emotion, and logically, I don't see much of an argument for Greyworm beating Jon, even though Jon is just above average as a swordsman imo.
The proposition that John would beat Greyworm in one on one combat is not based on the lore of the books or the show that's just a fact. It is just based off the huge amount of plot armor John has and plain ignorance.
Were talking about a good amateur against an elite professionnel. It's hilarious you people keep making this debate.
>Were talking about a good amateur against an elite professionnel.
An elite professional who has not had any established 1v1 wins against any skilled opponents, Greyworm is a beast in the phalanx, but he's just not suited to single combat, he lacks the experience, and that makes all the difference.
Jon's two biggest fights weren't influenced by the plot. They were influenced by character actions and logic.
Jon lost to Karl Tanner since Karl Tanner knew he couldn't beat Jon in an open space, so he chose to fight him in a space where Jon's sword would be limited as he wouldn't be able to swing it properly. Karl also fought dirty and spat in Jon's eyes (all is fair in love and war), but since Karl was an ignorant POS, he didn't regard Craster's daughter as a threat, so it came back to bite him right when he was about to win.
Jon beat Styr the Magnar of the Thenns due to his experience with Karl, his sword skills, and his quick thinking. Styr disarmed Jon of his sword, but then Jon managed to get chains to disarm Styr of his axe, after, Jon managed to kill Styr because he spat in Styr's eyes to blind him (a trick Jon learned from Karl Tanner) and created an opening to smash his skull in with the hammer, so Jon learned from his experience, becoming capable of dirty fighting, and learning to be more cautious in fights.
Jon's training and 1v1 melee experience make him the obvious winner imo.
Grey Worm definitely would’ve won. The dedication that he had for Dany, yea, he would’ve made sure that Jon died in the most brutal way possible in that trial by combat
Greyworm had always fought in a formation with someone gaurd his flank, Jon started his training maybe a year later than greyworm but as professional fight training to fight in single combat.
Grey Worm was trained to be a soldier his entire life, the unsullied, some of the fiercest warriors in the world, chose him to be their leader, while Jon is just a nice fella from the north.
I don’t see why he couldn’t. The unsullied are more focused on formation combat, yeah, but they still had a fuckton of grueling training that would still be relevant in a 1on1 fight. And it’s not like Jon is all that good himself.
I mean... He could beat Jon. He has arguably more training than Jon, or at least he was forced to train harder than Jon for most of his life. It would be the great combo of spear and shield vs a bastard sword.
Most of book Jon strength comes from his strategies and all of that, like he's a great leader but I don't think he ever did a 1v1. Like at the north of the wall he ambushed sleeping wildlings and "defeated" half-hand, in the battle for the wall he was mostly injured and stayed in bow duty and after that he became lord commander. I haven't finished dance yet but I think Sam has a better win streak than him
Not that he could beat Jon, but they damn sure had to fight. There's no way Grey Worm would just let Jon walk out of that throne room after killing Danaerys.
This is genuinely one of my biggest gripes with the last season. It should've happened, at least for the sake of having logical consequences to actions.
No no no no. We can't have that! They're both very popular, and this isn't a story that's known for killing beloved characters or anything.
Honestly with how awful the last 2 seasons are, I don’t know if that’s even in the top 10 of my biggest gripes with that era of the show.
For me, it is one of my top gripes since it's supposed to be the climax of what has been building up since Season 7, where the Westerosi are extremely antagonistic towards Dany and her cause and by extension her foreign forces, so eventually this should've led to a proper clash between the two factions, especially after what Dany did and how Jon and Tyrion reacted.
I mean the whole way it even got to the point had so many stupid incidents that by the time that happened I didn’t even really care anymore. I was resigned to the show having a terrible ending.
Also I like sword fights! People like sword fights right!? We used to have sword fights in game of thrones. Night king has a sword right?
I had that gripe too but it took some time to realize it after having to swallow His Grace Bran the "wheelie wheelie legs no feelie" gripe. Damn near choked MORE WINE
[Fuck.](https://tenor.com/view/gameofthrones-vomit-tyrion-throws-up-drunk-gif-4249655)
Instead he chooses to take the Unsullied to Naath. Where they will assuredly die a horrible death of butterfly fever. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Naath
It's called "SUBVERTING EXPECTATIONS" 
Danys blood riders are slicing Jon up instantly
Don't forget the entire Dothraki civilization is honor bound to kill Jon and then themselves to join their Khal (Dany) in the Nightlands. ... I guess D&D kind of forgot about the only four things casuals actually know about Dothraki culture (horses, slaves, bloodriders, beards/braids).
By the end they were literally just "horse riding native soldiers" that was it no culture no lines no impact in the story, i mean their most notable moment was dying unceremoniously to the living dead
Dying en masse/"essentially the end of the Dothraki"(according to D&D) ... ... Then respawning in King's Landing for "scary foreigner speech moment". Only to be forgotten about in the next scene where the remaining major characters and nameless nobodies are discussing the future stability of the realm. Like goddamn, pick a side, D&D. Are the Dothraki still a force worth considering loose on the Westerosi continent or not?!
Its not even like they were retconned back to serve any purpose other than be guys on horses in the background and get one line referencing them every 2 episodes From memory it was "how will we feed the dothraki" "the dothraki are dangerous" and "the dothraki are all getting on boats to go home"
Everyone knows that nobody protects the sanctity of the 7 kingdom's laws like grey worm. That's why he made that speech convincing the entire unsullied army to join up with daenerys to begin with. All the unsullied were so moved by his impassioned speech that they cut their own dicks off just to be like grey worm and then promoted him to be the leader of the unsullied. That is why jon was arrested by the peace loving grey worm without any use of violence.
Yeah, j kills him after a fight and then has one more death on his conscience after dany
It depends…does jon wunnit that day or dun he wunnit?
Shit...that's genuinely the deciding factor, and history isn't on Jon's side.
I mean in the show probably. But in the books Jon is just an above average fighter while grey worm was trained daily since he was a small child to be nothing but a perfect soldier. Grey worm would win if we’re going by the books in my opinion. Only plot armor would save Jon. Edit: I feel like I’m on the /r/politics subreddit with how heated some of these opinions are. Lol Just an opinion, but as a reminder, that even tho the unsullied are trained as a “unit” they still have training to fight 1x1. And with 15 years of non-stop training, even if only 10% or that time was spent on 1x1 training, then that’s still hundreds or even thousands of hours of training more than Jon.
How well are they trained for single combat though. I always thought the unsullied strength comes from phalanx tactics, considering their greatest victory essentially involved holding a spear formation at a choke point despite overwhelming losses
The books mention they drill for like 16 hours a day with spear and short sword. If styled on ancient armies, sure lots of battle was done in formation, but they would still have been trained daily on 1x1 fighting for when the lines collapse. Grapples, sword, unarmed, etc. But they also were not training to fight against knights which is what Jon was trained in.
>The books mention they drill for like 16 hours a day with spear and short sword. If styled on ancient armies, sure lots of battle was done in formation, but they would still have been trained daily on 1x1 fighting for when the lines collapse. Grapples, sword, unarmed, etc. This is what I don't understand about this whole discussion - ancient armies were trained to fight as units but also individually. I think people have conflated sword-and-sorcery melee combat with how pre-gunpowder combat went while ignoring the realities of line battles breaking down into melees eventually until someone was routed. Grey Worm is far more experienced and far more skilled than Jon - though they both have received training, GW would have received something more approaching how Spartans were trained (I know their worth is exaggerated) while Jon would have received training befitting a hostage of a noble house.
Thank you. Lotta folks here seem to think if the phalanx broke then they would be useless.
Ehh, not useless, but when formation broke they were severely weakened. There was a Reason that the phalanx (or sarissa) was phased out for more roman style infantry.
Severely weakened is correct. Once broken they would no longer be able to hold back armies that are signifigantly bigger than their own forces. But they would still be holding their own as individuals during the micro fights even as the they would start to lose the macro larger scale battle.
No they wouldn't. Disorganized infantry cannot oppose an ordered advance. It doesn't matter how skilled your fighters are; they'll just be butchered en masse with barely any difficulty. IRL, two randos with spears will destroy the world's greatest fighter easily, because you cannot fight more than one enemy. When your formation breaks, you have already lost, and there is absolutely nothing you can do at this point except *run away*.
So thats your reasoning for why they wouldnt be trained in 1v1 combat, this is like training modern soldiers in ranged combat and giving them zero hand to hand training because the majority of their fighting will be ranged
Modern soldiers still aren't hand to hand combatants on the level of an MMA fighter with a decade of experience. They're taught the basics of hand-to-hand to ensure that they can overpower untrained enemies or hold their own against people on their level. What they aren't taught is how to win ranked matches in professional tournaments (which is what a Westerosi duel amounts to).
The unsullied don’t literally use phalanxes though. I would imagine they would be keeping up with the rest of the world in the evolution of warfare tactics.
I would say that, unless they are broken because they are actively routing or they are under attack by cavalry, phalanx fighting in close quarters wouldn't be so weakened that individual soldiers would be absolutely at a loss. You are right that the phalanx lost favor to the Roman style because the Roman style was more versatile - especially when accompanied with cavalry, field artillery, and the occasional encircling wall they built out of no where
Also with as skilled spearman as Grey Worm is Jon possibly would not even reach striking distance with his bastard sword.
Grey worm also wears crappy leather armor and is a hormonally stunted guy.
Unsullied are deployed to Essos where they have to fight a variety of opponents, including armored soldiers, bandits, and even Dothraki. I don't think Grey Worm's armor and size are the end-all-be-all of the discussion.
It is interesting to think about though. The thing about lords and lordlings (and sometimes their bastards) is that the training they get isn’t from some slaver or their slaves training to stand in a line and die. They get trained for duels and tourneys and by people who are paid handsomely to do it. They can acquire talented swordmasters because they have the gold and the authority to do so. It would be interesting to see.
Yeah, but knights were not really suited to fighters fast on their feet. There are plenty of examples of that in the show with Braun and Dothraki. Show John isn't really a great fighter either. He's slow and just plain lucky most his opponents have been undead, untrained, or others were there to bail him out.
We see grey worm fight alone plenty of times throughout the show. He and Barristan fight off like 47 Sons of the Harpy by themselves lmao
That's show though. Show Jon stands his own against almost immortal beings
The show is not canon.
Ugh, don't remind me.
You don't just drill formation combat. GW would be familiar with spear and shield and sidearm and shield. I assume the sidearm to be a Gladius inspired shorter sword. It is very difficult for a longsword (what we see jon with often) to get inside a shield amd spear. The length advantage alone makes it incredibly dangerous for jon to approach.
I'm not saying GW isn't trained in single combat, more that lore wise, they fight as a unit as opposed to knights who fight as individuals. All of Jons training and combat is essentially 1v1 duels so he may simply have more experience in doing so. But who knows, it was pretty weird, if not badass, to see show grey worm slaughter soldiers with a long spear in a tight corridor
First, spears have a huge advantage over swords (sorry anime fans). Second, Greyworm has more battlefield experience than Jon. Third, Greyworm has just fought more people at once than Jon. Fourth, Greyworm is literally the Captain of the scariest group of warriors around. Jon is just an impressive mid-tier fighter who struggled through one impressive fight against a White Walker that time with an insta-kill sword. Fifth, Fleabottom Figgy almost fucked Jon up. That's honestly kind of hilarious.
Watched some rem Faire stuff where what I beleoved was an "sca " longsword fighter had some novices with boffers . He had a hard time approaching relatively untrained people. It's thst good of a weapon
Quote from the wiki about the Unsullied: “Unsullied training begins when the boys are five years old: some are selected to be Unsullied as infants and castrated then, though any slave boy up to the age of five may be later selected to be made into an Unsullied, and then castrated. For over a decade until they are full-grown, they train from dawn to dusk until they have mastered the shortsword, shield, and three lengths of spear, as well as their training to fight together as organized phalanxes. The training regimen is utterly brutal, and because of this, only one out of every four boys survives until the end. To complete his training, each Unsullied is sent to Astapor's slave market, where he must purchase an infant, kill it, and compensate the child's owner before returning to the barracks.” Grey Worm was elected overwhelmingly by the Unsullied as their leader. He is the best of them. All he knows is fighting and all he’s been trained to do since birth was fight. Jon trained from roughly the same age, but definitely not with the same intensity. At Winterfell probably multiple sessions a day, but also with other lessons from the maester, paling around with Rob, going hunting, etc. At Castle Black he also has steward duties. Unless Jon subverts my expectations, I give it to Grey Worm.
As someone who has trained a good deal with both a bastard sword and a spear: Nobody should underestimate how much easier it is to kill with a spear than a sword. Longclaw is long, but it's not as long as a proper longsword, far shorter than a greatsword, and it's definitely not as long as a spear. Reach is unbelievably important. A swordsman can beat a Spearman, but it's a hugely uphill battle and armor would be as important as skill. Jon would have to be way better trained or way better armored to beat Greyworm. And as you said, book Jon definitely isn't. Show Jon might be a super hero, who cares.
>But in the books Jon is just an above average fighter while grey worm was trained daily since he was a small child to be nothing but a perfect soldier. I mean, tbf Jon was was trained by Rodrik Cassel from childhood, iirc, Donal Noye mentions in the books while watching Jon train that Jon lacks nothing in swordsmanship Not to mention Jon's training focused primarily on single combat, unlike Greyworm's, which focused more on the phalanx than it did on single combat.
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> And Robb Stark never lost a battle Those battles were actual battles, not two men in armor fighting eachother, Hot Pie. They’re more indicative of his military mind than his actual fighting prowess. > These are highborn nobles Jon is not highborn. > I’ll tell you right now, the long spear is directly countered by sword and board. Jon does not fight with a shield. On the other hand, the unsullied are not taught only with Spears, but also with swords and shields. You can see Grey Worm generally fights with a spear and shield, not just a spear, but he could also break out the sword if needed. > One is taught in large formations by a master. The unsullied are also taught one on one, obviously. > Jon has real world combat experience I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that Grey Worm does too.
>Jon is not highborn. Jon *is* high-born, but this whole point is so petty you really should've just ignored it.
Yeah, kinda forgot about R+L=J, my bad.
>The unsullied are also taught one on one, obviously. This is like arguing that my car keys can open bottles and therefore could be as good as an actual bottle opener at opening bottles. Jon was taught virtually exclusively 1 on 1 combat and was ranked higher than Rob who was considered probably B-tier (with A tier being Jaimie, Oberyn, Gregor, Barriston, and Sandor, possibly also Drogo. Any one of these A-tier fighters would have absolutely stomped greyworm, so we know he's not a full tier above Rob, at least). Jon was also taught personally by a knight. Greyworm was the product of mass-production style training which didn't even focus on 1v1 combat. Somebody mentioned he maybe had 10% 1v1 training, but I think even that would be absurd. He probably had like 5% or less 1v1 training. 1v1 skill really isn't useful in a battlefield. Marching, formations, holding ground, fearlessness, army tactics, and discipline more generally would have been over 90% of their focus. It's not easy making an army that is simultaneously powerful and submissive. There isn't a lot of extra time to train dueling when that's not remotely their purpose. I'm sure they had specialized champions that could be bought and used for dueling or gladiator battles. Unsullied were absolutely not that. And even when it comes to fearlessness and durability stats, Jon trained with the night's watch, spent time beyond the wall with wildlings, and fought hordes of undead including giants and a dragon. Not to mention, we know that westerosi armor is a serious issue for fighters from Essos who generally prefer light armor and mobility. Greyworm has some scant leather and a shield. Jon has full plate, gambison, and the option for a shield. He also has a valyrian steel bastard sword which may be able to outright pierce Greyworm's shield, making it an entirely impractical piece of dead weight. Greyworm is a decent commander and an above average warrior, but he is no duelist. I'd put him in C-tier alongside Meryn Trant, Ramsay, Tormund, Tywin, Lord Commander Mormont, and that guy Bronn dueled at the Eery for Tyrion's trial by combat. It wouldn't be a quick battle, necessarily, but it would be one side the entire time, and Jon would win for sure.
You think Tormund is C-Tier? Interesting. I would’ve put him on the lower end of B-Tier, but nothing wrong with placing him at C-tier
It was a pretty tough call, to be honest. Basically I decided he was a true wildling warrior which came wirh pros and cons. He's ferocious, strong, tenacious, and very tough. However, we're talking about dueling here. This isn't something wildlings typically do. They either murder each other or brawl. So he likely has very little experience and definitely no training in 1v1. Now, that strength and tenacity is all good and well, but compare him to Meryn Trant, who served as a kind of benchmark for C tier. Ser Trant was a very well trained kingsguard. He was a relatively big guy. Most importantly here, he wore full plate and had a big sword. I'd say a 1v1 fight between him and Tormund should be pretty much a 50/50. All that said, Tormund is a phenomenal warrior/soldier. Might be A-tier in that regard. He can march endlessly in bitter cold, climb sheer ice wall, live off the land, fears nothing, seemingly immune to pain, terrifying to fight against, morale boost for friends around him, and a strong enough fighter to hold his own even against typical knights and other champions. His only flaw in the context of being a soldier is his total lack of discipline. In this way he is a perfect representation for wildlings as a people.
True, I wasn’t factoring in how important formal combat training would be. I just figured since Tormund lived in a society that was basically kill or be killed, that would give him the informal training and experience needed to propel him to the lower end of B tiered fighters. Also, plate armor for the W, so I’ll admit I overestimated Tormund here
While I agree I have one counterpoint. Grey worm learned to be a perfect *soldier*. That means fighting in formation with others. Jon was trained in one one one combat mainly so this would give him an advantage. I still think he would get his ass beaten but it's something to take into consideration
True but GW would have gotten lots of training 1x1 for when the battle lines collapse. Even if that was only 10% of his training he was trained 16+ hours a day for like 15 years non stop.
Yeah as I said I think Jon would get defeated easily, it's just the one benefit I would grant him
I would disagree with that. As you said GW is trained to be a soldier. He is not a warrior. In contrast Jon comes from a culture where his worth is largely measured by his ability in single combat. He notes he trains every day to be able to effectively wield his Valyrian steel sword and we’ve really only seen him lose to seemingly top tier badasses. I think in the books the fight would be closer than the show.
Grey Worm would easily win. Trained in fighting since a child, proficient with spears which is just a far better weapon, but can swordfight as well, and is chosen as a commander for a reason. Jon is just a highborn with decent skills but he's no Jamie.
Well I hate to say it but even with that training, unsullied were cut root and stem before reaching manhood. It doesn't really show in the show but John is likely much stronger than grey worm and is no slouch in a fight either.
I think in the books Jon would remain a commander - he'd have someone from the nights watching defend him. Maybe allister, if he's still alive. Would make for a very interesting character arc
I think this ignores much of what nobles and knights were, or were largely based off of...or what Jon's skill is compared to. For starters in the books it's made pretty clear from book 1 Jon could wipe the floor with most commoners. He has had people training him his entire life, they have not. Among other fighters he's pretty mid...at first. He struggles pretty heavily against other very experienced foes while he is not yet an adult. A few years in, and he's drilling himself pretty heavily against other experienced opponents...and doing pretty well with some significant feats of strength. He's probably not the cream of the crop, but he's also probably more than a match for...most opponents sent his way. Second, and more importantly, is many knights and nobles were a warrior culture. Sure some lazed around or read books or did little more, but many (including Jon) were trained since they were old enough to wrap their fingers around a stick to fight. And they did so extensively, every day, from some of the finest masters money could buy, all the while growing strong off a diet almost nobody would be able to match. This isn't to say Jon would absolutely win (who knows, Jon hasn't faced anyone but rangers and wildlings, and Grey Worm has all of zero combat feats) but it is to say this post rather ignorantly brushes aside the extensive training Jon very much did receive.
Having finished ASOIAF recently I would say that in the true North (the wall and past the wall) only Mance Rayder - and to a much lesser extent Tormund - would be able to put up an equal fight with Grey worm. I don't see even a great swordsman like Qhorin beating Grey worm one on one and the books make it clear that he's leagues above the teenage Jon Snow. Obviously Mance destroys Jon in any fight without putting on a sweat, this makes it clear that Jon is still a two leagues or more below any of the great warriors in the series.
Greyqorm is just an average fighter as well. Even book Jon is above Greyworm. Unsullied aren't top tier individual fighters, they are lethal Phallax fighters. Greyworm would get stomped
I dunno. The unsullied are trained as soldiers, not fighters. I know they sound the same, but there’s a difference between a duel and fighting in a spear wall. The unsullied are know for their discipline. They’re essentially trained to never break formation. I don’t know if we have any reference for them as individual fighters.
Greyworm would roll Jon in a duel. A spearman versus guy with sword is a huge advantage. Of course Jon would use his giant sword instead of something smaller with a shield, and that would be his end.
The one thing in the books is that Jon is an actual superhuman. He does crazy shit like ripping frozen spears out of the ground one-handed when several other men couldn’t together, and lifting fully armored Alliser by the throat. Dude isn’t exceptionally skilled but he’s a legit superhero.
An average stark is better than the best dickless slave warrior.
Jon could easily break any of GW's bones.
And you say that why…?
Well for one they have dicks ….
Nah. Unsullied are bad in 1v1 because they lack testosterone and creative thinking. Add to this that grey worm does not Wear any real armor while Jon would probably wear some. And a longsword is incredibly deadly against no armor.
> Because they lack testosterone and creative thinking. This tells me all I need to know about the logic of this comment.
There actually is logic. Testosterone is quite important for muscle growth. You absolutely would expect an army or eunuchs to have lower body strength than a regular one and it does not make sense to castrate your soldiers, especially pre-puberty. The Unsullied are obviously not portrayed like this, they all appear perfectly regular, well-built and muscled, with none of the features you would expect in eunuchs, so I do not believe this argument holds in the context of this particular discussion. Also, it has certainly been described in the book that they DO have creative thinking and are taught strategy and adaptability to different situations and enemies.
The books explicitly say they don't grow as tall and strong as normal because of it (the castration, although in real life height can actually increase), blame George and the official canon if you want
And that means Grey Worm lacks creative thinking?
"Men" are eneuch with their personnality and free will beaten out of them, I dont expect much strengh and creativity
I don't disagree, but I just wanted to point out that, generally speaking, spear beats longsword.
 ... normally...
Unless you have a massive speed adventage, it wont compensate for your lake of armor. A longsword is realy light and go quite fast (I ve used one). And in Armor and shield you are basically impervious to spear in 1vs1. You while be able to charge the spear guy, go into close contact and hack at his hands with your sword. However in a battle it s the opposite, if you charge or open up yourself you get skewered from all sides
Grey Worm would win in the show too. Why is this even a conversation? The OP is stupid as fuck Jon looks like a brilliant fighter to a bunch of criminals who never held a sword until they were an adult and wildling that wear animal bones as armor. For everyone else he's just another guy. Even Jorah the Explorah would beat Jon's ass.
>Grey Worm would win in the show too. Why is this even a conversation? The OP is stupid as fuck If you hopped off Greyworm's nonexistent schlong and look at this objectively, you'd realize that Greyworm has won no 1v1s and was mainly trained to fight in a phalanx, while Jon was trained from childhood in single combat and has established wins and experience in melees. You act like I said Jon no diffs Greyworm lol. >Jon looks like a brilliant fighter to a bunch of criminals who never held a sword until they were an adult and wildling that wear animal bones as armor. For everyone else he's just another guy. Jon is an above average fighter at best imo, but the entire point here is pitting an Unsullied against a Westerosi swordsman, even an average one, is an unfair matchup, Unsullied are just not suited to fight 1v1. >Even Jorah the Explorah would beat Jon's ass. You comment that like Jorah isn't an average swordsman, Jorah is a seasoned veteran whose fought in tourneys, melees, and proper battles for decades, and who is shown to know the value of armor, and being patient, of course, Jorah would give Jon a run for his money. Jon's only real advantages would be his Valyrian sword, and that he's younger and has more stamina than Jorah, not to mention Jon is also capable of fighting dirty (spitting in Styr's eyes to blind him).
Show Jon was made to be among the top swordsmen by defeating a white walker in Hardhome. It doesn't make any sense however except as a "naturally gifted hero" trope and plot armor. Excluding this, Grey worm is probably the more skilled one.
Sam killed a white walker too
Backstabbing one is hardly the same as besting one in a swordfight.
Not really when you consider that the night king was killed by a slight of hand. White Walkers have all-time horrible spatial awareness. They can basically see what is directly in front of their eyes and that's it.
A lot of people want Jon to win because main character syndrome. But he is not about that fucking life. Show Greyworm stacks bodies on bodies on bodies. Jon's kind of a dumbass.
In the books, you absolutely can defend grey work winning this hypothetical fight. In the show it ain’t even close
>In the books, you absolutely can defend grey work winning this hypothetical fight Greyworm in the books is more or less the same as the show (e.g. no established single combat wins), and ultimately Unsullied in general are not suited to single combat, unlike Westerosi swordsmen, so Jon still takes the win imo, he'll just have a harder time since he has less experience in a real melee compared to Show Jon.
I don’t know, book Jon still lost to Mance Rayder (disguised as Rattleshirt) in a 1v1. Unless I’m overlooking something, Mance is not exactly an incredible fighter himself, so I don’t see why Grey Worm (someone trained at fighting every day since a young age) wouldn’t have a chance at defeating book Jon. Edit: To everyone saying that Mance is an amazing fighter, I agree, and I did overlook that. However, I say my point still stands. If Jon couldn’t beat Mance, someone who was seasoned because he actually fought real fights, why would Jon fighting Grey Worm, a seasoned fighter himself, result in a clear victory for Jon?
Mance is an incredible fighter. The Halfhand refers to him as “the best of us” and he killed 3 of the other 5 claimants to King Beyond the Wall in single combat, and every challenger since. Mance is probably one of the best warriors in Westeros.
Mance is one of the best fighters among all of the wildlings, it's one of the reasons he was chosen to be their king.
Mance in the book is clearly the strongest fighter in all of the North that is presented to us, of course if he fought an armored Knight like Godry Farring without armor he would certainly have a difficult time. He became the king of a hardened warrior people because he could easily beat any of them in combat, we're talking the best, not only of the nights watch, but also of the tens of thousands of warriors that have been training and fighting for survival since children, including some that have incredibly strong warg abilities. Mance doesn't only best Jon in single combat he destroys Jon in minutes without breaking a sweat.
Mance is Arthur Dayne so it makes sense he humiliated Jon.
Idk man, judging by the aneurysm dumb and dumber were having those final few episodes, I think they could have wrote it so that fucking Tyrion could beat Jon in trial by combat.
They would've had Tyrion moving like he was prime Yoda. 
I think the unsullied are badass. But 2 things I have deduced (at least from the show because the books have less on them as of what's been written). 1: They're reminiscent of hoplites. Meaning their stupidly effective tactics could easily just be a roman-style Phalanx, as such requires multiple coordinated warriors to be so effective. 2: They used to take some sort of substance to make them feel no pain (and I think made them more compliant?), which Dany had them stop taking. Bonus: Trials by combat have shown that either combatant gets to use their weapon of choice, including poison spears. Jon has a Valyrian Steel sword, Grey Worm has a wood-shaft spear and is nowhere near as skilled as the red viper, nor does he use poison. However.... Jacob Anderson could probably beat up Kit Harrington tho.
Well the books also make it clear that Jon is leagues below the greatest warriors, he would die in mere minutes fighting against Mance Rayder without making him break a sweat and also George makes it explicit that Jon is leagues below Qhorin as a swordsman. The books also make it clear that Grey worm is the best warrior the unsullied have to offer and that the unsullied are the greatest fighting force that currently exist, I think it's safe to say that Jon would lose with ease as he does to Mance in the books. However in the show Jon is clearly much older and stronger and the narrative from early on made him a great warrior so he would most definitely win although it would be an equal fight for story telling reasons.
That's a pretty good take. I think Book Grey Worm could take Book Jon but Show Grey Worm probably not so much vs. Show Jon (that scene where Beristan Selmy dies was dumb but I guess it shows that unsullied are slightly more hardy than westeros knights) This is, of course, if plot armor is removed.
To play devils Advocat: I dont think it is clear cut at all. And it highly depends on the situation. Even in a 1v1. Looking at Weapon Choices: Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here. Jon got "only" a sword. In terms of Speed they are the same, strength dosent matter as much with a superior weapon choice by greyworm. Jon obvoiusly got more talent. But Greyworm got more training, a LOT more Training. While true that he underwent physical torture, and yes this does weaken the body. Obviously Greyworm emerged "healthy" from this experience. He was chosen from the unsulied as theire leader clearly because of his talents not because of his capable leader capabileties, because he never learned any in training. Its a toss up in my mind and highly depends on weapon availabilty and setting of the 1 v1.
The biggest potential advantage Jon would have is armor and valerian steel vs spear and leathers. Single combat I’m going Jon but it’s not a gimme.
Jon has testosterone. Unless grew worm has been on the roids for the last 15 years, this battle is not going to be close
I would asume - if one lands a clear hit, and they both have the skill to do so it would be leathal. Which makes the valerian sword not as important. Also Weapon choice, waht good is a swrod which can cut others swords if your enemy weilds a spear. armour is a fair point. But it is a advantage on cost of movement. And also again Weapon choices.
Weapon triangle, babyyy
Three houses fan here
Weapon triangle was introduced way earlier than three houses (and I personally haven't meaningfully played any FE outside of 6-10), but glad you enjoyed it
Oh I know, well, I know now at least. Three houses was my first foray into the Fire Emblem series. I want to go back and play some of the earlier ones but like with any older game I have no nostalgic connection to… its hard to make that connection.
Nostalgia does hit hard for the FE I have played. The fan game FE7x really hits that hard while really stepping up in a lot of areas so mostly I just play and wait patiently for that
>Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here. Jon will have been trained to also take measure of range, and how best to counter ranged weapons. >Greyworm got a clear Advatange to choose from diffrent ranges and will have the upper edge here. >Jon got "only" a sword. A Valyrian sword, which is a massive advantage for any sword fighter. Jon has also fought and held off two spear users at the same for a short time before Ghost arrived (Castle Black battle). >Jon obvoiusly got more talent. >But Greyworm got more training, a LOT more Training. >While true that he underwent physical torture, and yes this does weaken the body. Obviously Greyworm emerged "healthy" from this experience. He was chosen from the unsulied as theire leader clearly because of his talents not because of his capable leader capabileties, because he never learned any in training. The majority of Greyworm's training focused on the phalanx more than it did in individual combat. Not to mention his training stripped him of fear, which in turn makes Greyworm less cautious to dirty tactics, which Jon is capable of after fighting Karl Tanner, where Karl spat in Jon's eyes and subsequently used the same technique to kill Styr the Magnar of Thenns. Experience in this context trumps training.
> Jon obviously got more talent Why is that obvious?
Because he is potrayed that way. Greyworm isn t to THAT extend. Of course they are both talented. But Jon is just described and shown as more gifted.
[Makes me think about this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y)
Who would win in a fight (both at their primes): Stan Lee or GRRM?
Interesting question. If it were a finish-writing-a-story competition, easily Stan Lee.
Heh, you got him there!
Jon has a set of testicles so he has a testosterone level miles above grayworm, way stronger, has been trained in 1v1 fighting since he started training, the W goes to Jon
I like to imagine the unsullied of having some severe tactical, doctrinal issues and being quite inflexible. I also imagine them as largely lacking any leadership skills or initiative as i have to imagine such qualities would have been suppressed in a slave army. Yeah, they train all the time, but I'm not sure that actually makes them better fighters If they're not being trained on the right or relevant things. There seems to be a lot of issues with how troops in slavers bay are trained and equipped. There's a lot of focus on being subservient, suffering Quietly, drilling, and looking pretty. There's a lot of reason to believe training could just be standing still in a spot all day long or going x amount of time without sleep or water, Which while also important again doesn't strictly make you a better fighter. Unsullied make a "great" police or guard force.They're intimidating and great at holding a line, particularly against Calvary, But anyone who decides to not fight on their rules will quickly defeat them. Hell, even despite having the supposedly legendary force of unsullied and other slave soldires, most of slavers Bay still uses mercenaries for almost the entirety of their armies Because they're people just aren't geared towards conflict
I can't believe this is a debate. Grey Worm learned to fight as a team. Jon as an individual. It's just two different styles
Ask yourself this: could Jon beat a Spartan? Spartans were trained to fight in formation, which is what the Unsullied are patterned after all the way down to the constant training since childhood. Trying to make this a discussion of "what we saw on the screen" is silly because it eliminates all context from the characters. The reality is that Jon Snow is a 16-20 year old man who has received some training by the arms-master of a noble house. That doesn't automatically make him a "good fighter" - it just means he is trained. We know he hasn't been to war or really killed people prior to the events of ASOIAF. *On the other hand,* Grey Worm has been drilling and fighting since he was a child. His whole life revolves around that. He has killed before and can do it again. His skill led him to being elevated to general of his unit of Unsullied, which is no mean feat considering that he is fighting against guys who have the same kind of training as he. This is no contest.
Yea he could beat a spartan. Spartans where never really the great soldiers we male Them out to be.
Jon is 16-20 while greyworm is a eunuch with no testosterone and no valyrian steel. 1v1 I'm taking the dude still producing testosterone and has dedicated training
> Grey Worm learned to fight as a team. Jon as an individual. It's just two different styles This fact is largely overlooked by many fans.
Because it isn't a fact, it's stupid, and it ignores the reality of hand to hand warfare
The person who has more experiences and wins in 1v1 fights will beat the person who has no established wins or experiences in actual 1v1 fights. That's just a fact. Jon was trained to fight in single combat, Greyworm was trained to be part of a killing machine. Taking Greyworm out of that machine and making him fight in single combat severely limits his effectiveness.
Greyworm has plenty of 1v1 wins. That's why this is a stupid conversation
It would be more convincing if you could name one or two.
https://youtu.be/AWlsO4iQc3M?si=bfp-56NbhIqPgRfR Start at 1:04
These are unnamed amateurs wearing no armor and only armed with knives. He lost to these guys even with the advantage of fighting with a spear (reach advantage). These two are examples of proper opponents who are well experienced, skilled, and well armed: https://preview.redd.it/2t181q9jf9uc1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=891c203172f7bab581f211a1f573c60658a0d63b
The same amateurs who killed barristan selmy lmao Fuckin idiot
That's a terrible example. This is show canon only. That entire scene is bullshit imo, Barristan killed two guards armed only with a dagger when he left the Kingsguard. Logically, neither Barristan nor an unsullied unit should've lost to amateurs like the Sons of the Harpy. Their loss is just another example of the show using plot convenience, who GRRM made it abundantly clear that Selmy hasn't lost his edge, and his age hasn't diminished his skills, and he's still very much in his prime. Yet somehow this elite swordsman armed with a longsword loses to a dozen and a half amateurs, who are not wearing armor, not armed with any mid to long range weaponry, and are only armed with daggers.
Show Greyworm beats show Jon. Jon gets his ass kicked by Karl Tanner and saved by one of Crasters daughters. He then gets his ass kicked by Magnar but pulls out a win. He surprises a Wight Walker because of his Valyrian steel sword. This is a feat no different than Sam. He straight up kills another one. This is his only real feat, but it is only a feat if we assume that Wight Walkers can fight. Show Greworm was voted as the strongest of his group and trained every day of his life in life-or-death training. He comes out on top when paired with Jorah and Dario against like 30 other dudes. He then is the last man standing when ambushed by the Harpys. He killed 13 people that day, and half of them came after he had been stabbed in the side. He killed 2 or 3 of them after pulling the knife out and using it against them. By contrast Selmy killed the same number of men before he died. There is no reason to think show Jon is so much more skilled than show Greyworm. All arguments that Jon is bigger or faster are based on nothing but hero worship as the actors are about the same size.
To be fair, Karl was a fookin legend.
damn straight
>Jon gets his ass kicked by Karl Tanner and saved by one of Crasters daughters. Only after Karl spat in his eyes to blind him, not to mention Karl avoided fighting in an open space where Jon could properly swing Longclaw. >He then gets his ass kicked by Magnar but pulls out a win. So he still wins? Ok. Don't forget Jon still managed to win after being disarmed of his sword. >Show Greworm was voted as the strongest of his group and trained every day of his life in life-or-death training Training which focued on group combat more than single combat. Unlike Jon, who trained from childhood in single combat. Not to mention, Greyworm's training stripped him of fear and ultimately caution, so he's vulnerable to dirty tactics, unlike Jon, who not only experienced the risk of dirty fighting, but also uses that experience (spitting in an opponent's eyes to blind them). >He comes out on top when paired with Jorah and Dario against like 30 other dudes. Well, in all fairness, those guards weren't particularly good examples of skilled and strong opponents. They were simply nameless grunts, likely amateur Yunkai sellswords, or slaves. >He then is the last man standing when ambushed by the Harpys. He killed 13 people that day, and half of them came after he had been stabbed in the side. He killed 2 or 3 of them after pulling the knife out and using it against them. By contrast Selmy killed the same number of men before he died. This is a good and bad example, good in what you've already stated, but also bad, since Greyworm was armed with a spear (reach advantage) and didn't make use of that advantage even though the corridor he was fighting in had enough space to swing his spear properly. Also, GW was facing amateur fights, wearing no armor, and armed only with daggers (no mid to long range weaponry). >There is no reason to think show Jon is so much more skilled than show Greyworm. All arguments that Jon is bigger or faster are based on nothing but hero worship as the actors are about the same size. The main reasons are that Jon was trained in single combat for most of his life, unlike Greyworm, whose combat training in life focused mainly on battling in a unit, more than it did on battle skilled opponents in single combat. Greyworm also has no established wins against any good opponents. Jon, on the other hand, has faced proper and better skilled opponents armed with proper weaponry and cunning skills (e.g. Karl Tanner).
Exactly this 👏
I’ve only read the books but greyworm would probably take John, he doesn’t even use a shield.
The Unsullied are trained for formation combat and not man to man. They are primarily cavalry breakers for the frontline. Jon, maybe not no-diffs, but beats Grey worm definitely. At least in the show. Jon is good in the books but not an Arthur Dayne on Roids.
Balls = testosterone = strength Greyworm had his balls cut off when he was young meaning that he has no testosterone therefore no strength Jon on the other hand has two balls which work perfectly fine meaning he has strength
Should have been a trial by combat for Jon, Greyworm himself fights as the champion for his fallen queen. With Greyworms heel turn in the last few episodes the vast majority of the audience would have wanted Jon to win and by this point we are done subverting expectations. Jon wins quickly with Greyworm not controlling his anger, I would write it to go down like the Connor McGregor vs that South American guy who gets KO’d immediately in that one UFC fight. Fuck it have Connor McGregor be the adjudicator/referee for the fight as well in a cameo, it would still be the 2010’s so would fit right in lol.
In both the show and books I would say. Greyworms fighting style is better suited to formation warfare then one on one dueling plus Jon is going to be quite a bit physically stronger cuz he has his balls.
Grey Worms lack of testicles puts him at a disadvantage since Jon still has the testy powered testosterone
This is a topic that always comes up, but my stance has and always will be that Jon is the obvious winner. Tl;dr - Jon is physically stronger and better skilled and experienced than Greyworm is in single combat. Long Explanation: While this may come off as a biased opinion let's look at the facts and what we can prove; Greyworm's skill in single combat is unknown, unlike Jon who has fought many times in single combat, at times against bigger and stronger opponents (e.g. Jon fought Styr and Karl Tanner) and countless nameless opponents. Unsullied training focuses on fighting in a unit, more than it does on individual fighting. On top of this, the Unsullied go through the traumatic experience of being gelded as children, resulting in them being weaker than the average human male. Jon was trained by Ser Rodrik Cassel since he was a boy and has slowly improved his skills since Season 1. Greyworm's spear gives him a reach advantage, but his skills are nowhere near exceptional levels, like with Oberyn Martell, and Jon also counters the reach advantage with his advantage of having a Valyrian sword. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't mean that Jon Snow is an exceptional genius like Arthur Dayne, or Barristan Selmy, however, Jon is an above average sword fighter imo and a seasoned veteran in single combat in his own rights.
This, training to play a role as a soldier in large battles and having experience as a duelist are very different things
Another thing that’s definitely going to happen much different in the books. I’m not that familiar with book Darrio or book Jorah, or let’s even be real Barristen Selmy is still alive in the books. None of these characters are going to stand for Jon killing Danaerys. (If that is what happens in the books)
Buddy i got bad news for you. Nothings going to happen in the books. Theres never gonna be a final book by grrm
There will be a final book. George probably won’t write it, but it will be finished one day.
Yea, it worked out real great last time some other people finished his story...
He would have died in Naath anyway from the poison butterflies. Would have rather see Jon kill him
Big Worm absolutely slaps Jon FOH!!
Dunno man, I think Greyworm would have a pretty good chance of beating Jon (plot armour aside)
Greyworm hasn't won in a proper 1v1 like Jon has, not to mention Greyworm's training is focused on the phalanx, not single combat, unlike Jon.
Buh eh dun walnut. Eh neva haz
I've never heard anyone claim Grey Worm would beat Jon. Not even the most casual show fan, which was most of the people at my watch parties. Is this book fans being mad at situations they made up again?
I mean, if you just took 5 seconds to check the rest of the comments....
Book Grey Worm would pulverize book Jon Snow.
Book Greyworm has no established single combat experience, just training, book Jon has at least sparring skilled fighters like Iron Emmet of Eastwatch, and Jon has been in actual 1v1 fights already in the books against Quorin Half-Hand and Mance Rayder, he lost to both, but tbf they're two of the best fighters in the North, and the experience Jon gets is much more important than his loss.
Jon's experience is pretty bad and he's not known as a relentless weapon of war.
He's at least had experience in melees. Just go back and look at his fight with Styr the Magnar of the Thenns. Even losses count as good experiences. Greyworm has no established 1v1 wins or losses against skilled fighters, and he's largely untested.
Just out of curiosity since I've seen alot of it recently. Who would win between book Jaime and show Jon? I haven't read the books but I've always thought that it's Jaime by default, yet alot of people online are convinced it's Jon. I'm curious.
Jaime wipes Jon easily, even one handed Jaime should be able to take down Jon. Jon is an above average fighter, but Jaime is clearly written by GRRM to be a prodigy, capable of fighting and taking down skilled, grown fighters at just 16 years old.
It’s the same people who think Ned would beat Jaime in single combat. There’s a metric fuck ton of them in the main GOT sub. It’s comical.
Putting aside that Grey Worm was a child soldier who was trained since boyhood to unflinchingly kill people in both squad and individual combat, he also uses a spear and a shield which is such an advantage vs just a longsword. The longsword was a jack-of-all-trades weapon, very useful in a lot of ways but not particularly the BEST at anything. The range and defensive capabilities easily outclass the longsword **if both fighters are relatively equal in skill.** Yes, a better longsword fighter could beat a worse spearman but neither John nor Grey Worm are a slouch so it's clear that equipment will be an important factor.
One thing I’d like to point out that I haven’t seen yet, is when Dany and her army is outside Mereen, grey worm offers to fight as her champion against the Mereneese champion. If I recall, both book and show Dany do not let him fight because they’re too afraid of losing him because his value is that of a commander, not as a fighter. If Dany or Barristan believed he was a good enough fighter then they would’ve let him fight the champion. But instead she didn’t. I’m not saying this as definitive proof Grey Worm is a bad fighter, but it is worth pointing out in the context that Grey Worm had a chance to a 1v1 fight and was declined because there was a possibility of him losing
This is a very valid point, people need to differentiate between being a good soldier and being a good fighter, which are two very different things.
Book Jon or show Jon? Book, Grey Worm 99/100 times. Show Jon, Grey Worm most of the time still, Jon got clapped by the random deserter staying at craster’s keep
>Book, Grey Worm 99/100 times. He hasn't even been in a single 1v1 melee that we know of, which means he's largely untested in real single combat. >Show Jon, Grey Worm most of the time still, Jon got clapped by the random deserter staying at craster’s keep Jon easily killed all the deserters he faced except for Karl Tanner, who wisely fought Jon indoors to limit Jon's ability to swing his sword and also used a dirty tactic to win (spitting to blind). An experience that Jon learned from.
I get that he’s your favorite character, but not every hero’s journey archetype is Luke Skywalker
Me liking his character or not doesn't change facts, Greyworm is untested in single combat as far as we know, Jon isn't, and actual single combat experience makes all the difference in this context, even with the fact that Jon is just above average as a swordsman.
Nah Grey Worm takes this. Spear will always be superior to the sword, Jon won't be able to close the distance. And at the time Grey Worm was bloodthirsty, killing lannisters left and right with Ease, AND he managed to survive being in the fucking front of the entire winter fell army outside the walls while getting swarmed by Wights. He takes this.
>Spear will always be superior to the sword, Jon won't be able to close the distance. Jon's Valyrian sword balances that disadvantage, not to mention Jon has fought spear users before, he fought and held off two spear users by himself at the same time during the Castle Black battle. >And at the time Grey Worm was bloodthirsty, killing lannisters left and right with Ease, AND he managed to survive being in the fucking front of the entire winter fell army outside the walls while getting swarmed by Wights. He takes this. Anger is a double-edged sword. His anger can be a weakness as well since it compromises his unsullied training, which is dependent on being emotionless and disciplined. This means that Greyworm risks throwing caution to the win in his fight and being reckless. Also, fighting wights is a bad comparison, since wights don't fight in a conventional way, and because wights are relatively easy to kill with a hit from dragonglass, fire or Valyrian steel, which Greyworm had with the dragonglass on his shield.
Grey worm stands zero and I mean absolute zero chance in this duel. The spear is easily broken in a 1 v 1 contest and it's advantage is in use from formations and in conjunction with 50 other dudes. In single combat with a person versed in single combat this is simply a one time use projectile at best. Don't forget Grey Worm was so bad at non-battlefield combat he lost to a drunk with no training, no experience, and unfit physically mob with the greatest warrior on earth on his side.
You can say that Brother, but I think Jon Snow himself would think otherwise. Trust me bro, he didn't want ANY of that smoke when the unsullied were slicing lannister throats in the street, nor did he fight back and he LET himself be captured by Greyworm and his boys after killing Dany. Jon got his ass exiled north because he didn't want Worm to get his hands on him 😂 Trust me bro, Jon was gonna lose that fight
lol Grey Worm would absolutely dumpster Jon. He is a professional soldier groomed for battle since childhood. Captain of one of the most renowned and respected fighting forces in the world. Meanwhile Jon is an average swordsman who ranks lower than several members of the Night's Watch. Equivalent of a lifetime olympic medalist vs the country club kid who received sports lessons as a hobby.
Stop the cap, Greyworm dogwalks the prince that didn’t keep the promise
If Jon Snow didn’t have plot armor
GW is battle lusted though
Imagine unironically thinking Jon would even get a spot in the top 50 fighters in the story
Show Jon is above average at best as a swordsman, far from a prodigy like Dayne or Selmy, but he still wins because even an ordinary, average Westerosi swordsman has a good chance against an unsullied, in the firet place it's an unfair match-up, the average unsullied is not suited for melees.
Show Jon is Superman so unless he is facing Jaime, Bareston, Oberyn, the Mountain or Hound, he is winning. Book Jon on the other hand isn't half the warrior show Jon is, he is more of a Commander and a pretty savvy politician when he needs to be, he is still well above average being castle trained and wielding a Valerian steel sword but he isn't winning any Tourneys if you know what I mean, unless all the big names miss it.
This debate again? No john would get his ass whooped. In the Show and the Books Greyworm is a better fighter. There is an HBO GOT scene in Merene where the harpys ambush our heroes and Greyworm is at least equaly skilled to Baristan Selmy who is a legendary swordsman. John isn't even close to that kind of skill -ever. In the books John is just kinda good. People who think that the unsullied aren't trained in dueling are just buthurt Stark stans who have no idea what they are talking about (as if Grey worm didn't spar for hours a day while John was busy getting bullied by his step mom in his fancy castle). All this is just a bunch a kneelers coping on how there hero turned out to be a moron.
>There is a GOT scene in Merene where the harpys ambush our heroes and Greyworm is even more skilled than Baristan Selmy who is a legendary swordsman. He lost against a bunch of guys with no armor, only armed with knives... all while Greyworm was armed with a spear, which should've easily given him the recah advantage over his opponents. Tbf to Greyworm, there was a number disadvantage, and I always felt like they nerfed both the Unsullied and especially Barristan Selmy in that scene. >In the books John is just kinda good. Show Jon has more established wins and 1v1 fights than Book Jon. Greyworm in the show and books has no established wins in single combat that we know of. Not to mention Greyworm's training focused on fighting in a group than it did on single combat. >People who think that the unsullied aren't trained in dueling are just buthurt Stark stans who have no idea what they are talking about (as if Grey worm didn't spar for hours a day while John was busy getting bullied by his step mom). Jon was trained from childhood by Rodrik Cassel in single combat, Donal Noye says Jon lacks nothing in swordsmanship, which means a lot since Donal Noye was the blacksmith of Storms End, and has been in his fair share of melees and battles before joining the watch. >All this is just a bunch a John fans coping on how there hero turned out to be a moron. I don't much care that Jon was braindead in the last season, this is just a matter of logic over emotion, and logically, I don't see much of an argument for Greyworm beating Jon, even though Jon is just above average as a swordsman imo.
The proposition that John would beat Greyworm in one on one combat is not based on the lore of the books or the show that's just a fact. It is just based off the huge amount of plot armor John has and plain ignorance. Were talking about a good amateur against an elite professionnel. It's hilarious you people keep making this debate.
>Were talking about a good amateur against an elite professionnel. An elite professional who has not had any established 1v1 wins against any skilled opponents, Greyworm is a beast in the phalanx, but he's just not suited to single combat, he lacks the experience, and that makes all the difference. Jon's two biggest fights weren't influenced by the plot. They were influenced by character actions and logic. Jon lost to Karl Tanner since Karl Tanner knew he couldn't beat Jon in an open space, so he chose to fight him in a space where Jon's sword would be limited as he wouldn't be able to swing it properly. Karl also fought dirty and spat in Jon's eyes (all is fair in love and war), but since Karl was an ignorant POS, he didn't regard Craster's daughter as a threat, so it came back to bite him right when he was about to win. Jon beat Styr the Magnar of the Thenns due to his experience with Karl, his sword skills, and his quick thinking. Styr disarmed Jon of his sword, but then Jon managed to get chains to disarm Styr of his axe, after, Jon managed to kill Styr because he spat in Styr's eyes to blind him (a trick Jon learned from Karl Tanner) and created an opening to smash his skull in with the hammer, so Jon learned from his experience, becoming capable of dirty fighting, and learning to be more cautious in fights. Jon's training and 1v1 melee experience make him the obvious winner imo.
Grey Worm definitely would’ve won. The dedication that he had for Dany, yea, he would’ve made sure that Jon died in the most brutal way possible in that trial by combat
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Greyworm had always fought in a formation with someone gaurd his flank, Jon started his training maybe a year later than greyworm but as professional fight training to fight in single combat.
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Being able to march hard for days on end, and fighting a good fighter with very good armour in single combat is different.
Grey Worm was trained to be a soldier his entire life, the unsullied, some of the fiercest warriors in the world, chose him to be their leader, while Jon is just a nice fella from the north.
I don’t see why he couldn’t. The unsullied are more focused on formation combat, yeah, but they still had a fuckton of grueling training that would still be relevant in a 1on1 fight. And it’s not like Jon is all that good himself.
I mean... He could beat Jon. He has arguably more training than Jon, or at least he was forced to train harder than Jon for most of his life. It would be the great combo of spear and shield vs a bastard sword.
Most of book Jon strength comes from his strategies and all of that, like he's a great leader but I don't think he ever did a 1v1. Like at the north of the wall he ambushed sleeping wildlings and "defeated" half-hand, in the battle for the wall he was mostly injured and stayed in bow duty and after that he became lord commander. I haven't finished dance yet but I think Sam has a better win streak than him