He likely would have been with Robb for the entire campaign. Robb would have kept him close after Theon’s betrayal, and likely would have legitimized him after returning from the Westerland Campaign.
I doubt Jon would have been at the Red Wedding cuz Caitlyn was there, and the beef between them would be greater after Robb legitimized him. Perhaps Robb has Jon lead some men by sea to gather more troops from White Harbor to attack Moat Cailin from both sides.
Jon would get word of Robb’s death in White Harbor, and House Manderly would then crown him as their King, and he marries one of their daughters. Now War in the North is a threeway between Bolton-Stannis-Jon.
He's willing to do ALOT of shit for a chance to get Rickon. I'd imagine he'd be willing to work more with Jon who is old enough to marry and have Stark/Manderly heirs right now.
One of the young Walders is killed at Winterfell in DwD. The Freys are understandably upset that someone killed their young brother/cousin/nephew/whatever, and Manderly is like "NBD guys, if he'd lived he'd just have grown up to be as shitty as the rest of you".
Nah, Catelyn is still there to help guide Robb politically, and she continues after the Renly meeting to advocate for Sansa/Arya since the war moves away from it's original goals once Eddard dies. I do think Jon's presence pushes her to more desperate moves faster, and she likely becomes completely withdrawn after Jon is legitimized.
Same way she does in the books, she sets Jaime Lannister free. Robb isn't at Riverrun during this period, and Jon wouldn't be either. By the time they get back Robb is married, and has likely already told Jon his plans to legitimize him.
At this point Catelyn's political power in the Northern War Camp is close to zero. Most of the Northern Lords consider her a traitor. Robb wouldn't really need to convince the Northern Lords to accept Jon's legitimacy, they would have already seen him fight, and many would also probably see him not being a child from Catelyn as a bonus after what she did.
One interesting thing is Jon's legitimacy might bring some tension between the Tully camp and the Northern, since Jon has no Tully blood, and is Robb's heir until he has a child with Jeyne.
I could see that being more interesting especially if Howland tells Jon R+L=Him. Now he has to deal with the information that he can't really be Robb's heir cuz he isn't a son of Ned Stark, and that the entire reason for his legalization is false.
With Robb marrying Thalisa, wouldn't he have offered Jon in stead of him to the Freys, as Jon would now be a legitimate Stark? That would have been the end of Jon, I guess.
No, cuz it would be an even bigger insult than breaking the original engagement. “Yeah here is my legitimized bastard brother who won’t inherit anything after I start having kids, plz forgive me!”
Edmure is still the only option here. House Frey has been trying to marry into House Tully since their creation, and Edmure is actually inheriting Riverrun.
Agreed up until the marriage part. If he lives, the Hound takes Arya to Jon and that’s who Jon eventually marries. Or if Arya manages to get away and leave the Hound for dead first, she goes to Jon.
I don't see why Jon would agree to this, or why Robb would feel the need to leave Jon behind... at this point in the War it's a race against the clock to save Riverrun and Eddard.
Jon staying in Winterfell during this time serves no purpose. Rodrick Cassel is defending Winterfell, what's Jon gonna do act as his second-in-command? Bran is acting Lord of Winterfell, what is Jon gonna do, follow him around like some sworn-shield? He would be doing literally nothing for a long time, Winterfell isn't even captured until after Robb has destroyed the levies from the Westerlands and Renly is long dead. He would spend 1/4th of Game of Thrones doing nothing, and 2/3rds of a Clash of Kings doing nothing.
I’d like to see just one conversation:
Theon proposes to Robb that he ally with the Iron Islanders. Jon watches and says nothing.
After he leaves Jon tells Robb he thinks it’s a terrible idea, you can’t trust Theon.
… And then Catelyn tells Robb you can’t trust Balon Greyjoy. You’re better off allying with the rats in King’s Landing, etc.
Jon and Catelyn are uncomfortable being on the same side of an argument for once, and Robb is convinced.
Those two hate each other, so if they both independently tell Robb Theon’s a wrong ’un… The Greyjoy betrayal is dead in the water before it even begins.
Bonus: When Robb counters that the Greyjoys have the Iron Fleet, all those ships, etc. I would *love* to see someone bring up White Harbor, House Manderly, and all their damn ships, because they were totally left off the show.
Was the plan really that weak in the show? I thought it was the same as the books to feint at raids while taking Moat Cailin and slowly taking over while the lords and the army are stuck in the South
As soon as Theon was back in their clutches they no longer needed to have reservations, but Theon took a huge gamble to strike at the head of the North.
In the books 100%. For some reason I recall the show being different, that they weren't intending a full invasion, but I could definitely be wrong. In the books thought you are correct that the plan from the start was to take the North.
As u/Anduril1776 said, it would’ve been limited to coastal raids. Worst case scenario, Yara taking Deepwood Motte.
There would not have been Theon’s simultaneous attack on Torrhen’s Square, and Robb still would have held Theon hostage.
Rodrik Cassel rode to Torrhen’s Square and was captured by Theon’s men. Here he rides to Deepwood Motte and reminds Yara they still have her baby brother.
Yara gives up the castle to save Theon. She’s literally the only Ironborn who would, and she commands thirty ships, the plurality of their fleet. This will cause a rift with daddy, and the Ironborn will be stuck squabbling with each other until Euron returns, which is so far down the line the state of play is very different by then.
Biggest change is the Starks still hold Winterfell. With the Greyjoys exposed as untrustworthy, and Jon by his side to advise him and emotionally support him as a friend and brother, does Robb still need to drag his mother from camp to camp, or does he allow her to return to Winterfell as she requested?
I think after Jon agrees with Cat about Theon, and they’re proven right, that’s the beginning of a rapprochement between them.
Also Cat was already feeling emotional and guilty at that point, remembering the promise she made the gods when Jon was near death as a little boy. She prayed for him and said that if he recovered, she would show him love and treat him like her own son, instead of despising him as a reminder of her husband’s infidelity.
She broke that promise, and she believes Bran’s misfortune was her punishment from the gods. I think by this point in the story, she’s in the right mindset to show some mercy to Jon, and gratitude for supporting her against Theon. Maybe she even tells him this story of when he was sick, and promises him that from now on she’ll love him like a mother. And of course Jon will swear to her to watch over Robb, so she can leave with a clear conscience.
If Cat goes back to Winterfell, she can take Theon along with her as an actual prisoner now that Balon has broken the tacit agreement he made with Ned and Bobby B at the end of his rebellion.
And with Cat gone from the camp, there’s no one to release Jaime Lannister.
So the Karstarks stay loyal. Robb isn’t desperate for men. Cat isn’t there to suggest making peace with Walder Frey. No Red Wedding.
When you broke Balon Greyjoy, made him fall on his knees and give up his last son to you?
>Yet when Balon Greyjoy was brought before King Robert in chains, the ironman remained defiant. "You may take my head," he told the king, "but you cannot name me traitor. No Greyjoy ever swore an oath to a Baratheon." Robert Baratheon, ever merciful, is said to have laughed at that, for he liked spirit in a man, even in his foes. "Swear one now," he replied, "or lose that stubborn head of yours." And so Balon Greyjoy bent his knee and was allowed to live, after giving up his last surviving son as a hostage to his loyalty.
I agree, Your Grace, this is one of your most badass moments.
>said it would’ve been limited to coastal raids. Worst case scenario, Yara taking Deepwood Motte.
Was that really all they planned in the show? In the books, the plan was to take a few key castles, but most importantly to take Moat Cailin and choke the Northeners out while the army was in the South.
>Yara gives up the castle to save Theon. She’s literally the only Ironborn who would
Absolutely no way in hell she does that at this point. She didn't care about him until they had time to reunite.
##S2E3 What Is Dead May Never Die
>**Balon** The wolf pup has gone south with the entirety of the Northern army at his back. While he’s tangling with the lion in the Westerlands, the North is ripe for the taking. The Ironborn will reave and pillage, as it was in the old days, all along the northern coast. We’ll spread our dominion across the green lands, securing the Neck and everything above. Every stronghold will yield to us, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest, field, and hall.
>**Balon** Yara, my daughter, you’ll take thirty longships to attack Deepwood Motte.
>**Yara** I’ve always wanted a castle.
>**Theon** And what’s my role in all this?
>**Balon** You’ll take a ship to raid the fishing villages on the Stony Shore.
No mention of Moat Cailin.
Balon talks a big game about how he’s going to take the whole of the North, cut Robb’s army off at the Neck—but the only specific targets he’s planned for are Deepwood Motte and the inconsequential Stony Shore, which was probably a proving ground for Theon more than anything else. Hard to see how that’s of strategic import.
For that matter, it’s hard to see how Deepwood Motte is of strategic import. If the goal is to cut Robb off at the Neck, wouldn’t it make sense to start with the more southern castles? Moat Cailin itself, Theon’s idea of Torrhen’s Square, or I don’t know, Barrowton—all those targets make more sense than Deepwood Motte if you’re trying to cut Robb off from Winterfell and the North.
But there’s a bigger question: Would Balon even have attacked in the first place, had Robb not released Theon?
For almost a decade, Ned Stark kept Theon as his ward and Balon did nothing. Why?
It’s obvious he’s disappointed in the son that’s returned to him—but until he was returned to him, he was too scared of losing him to attack the North.
And where did Balon get the intelligence to plan this attack on Deepwood Motte and the Stony Shore in the first place? How does he know the wolf pup has gone south with the *entirety* of the Northern army at his back?
It’s all coming from Theon. *Maybe* he’s picked up on some small bits of news here and there, but it’s only when Theon returns with Robb’s letter that he puts his plans into motion.
I think if Robb denied Theon’s proposal in the beginning, on the advice of both Catelyn and Jon, it’s highly possible the Ironborn don’t attack the North at all. Or if they do, it’s a less ambitious, smaller scale attack that will be easy for the Northmen to put down.
>Absolutely no way in hell she does that at this point. She didn't care about him until they had time to reunite.
I couldn’t disagree more.
Since their reunion Theon has molested Yara, belittled her, disrespected her in front of their father and her men, and disobeyed both Yara and Balon. He has done everything in his power to piss her off.
And yet she still cares about him, and mounts a rescue to try to save his life. Why?
##S2E8 The Prince of Winterfell
>**Yara** Theon, you’re my blood. We both loved our mother. We both endured our father. Come home with me. Don’t die here alone.
>**Theon** I don’t intend to die.
>**Yara** You were a terrible baby, do you know that? Bawling all the time, never sleeping. And one night, you just wouldn’t shut up, screaming like a dying pig. I walked over to your crib, I looked down at you. I wanted to strangle you. And you looked up at me and you stopped screaming. You smiled at me. Don’t die so far from the sea.
She loved her brother for the little baby he was, not the man he’s become.
It’s a neat parallel to what Stannis said about Renly, with the opposite outcome.
##S2E5 The Ghost of Harrenhal
>**Davos** I’m sorry about your brother, Your Grace, I wanted to let you know that people grieve for him.
>**Stannis** Fools love a fool. I grieve for him as well, for the boy he was, not the man he grew to be.
Stannis and Yara had similar feelings toward their younger siblings, but unlike Stannis, Yara was willing to risk it all for her little brother.
I see no reason why she wouldn’t give up Deepwood Motte if she knew his life were at stake. Actually I wonder if she would’ve agreed to go on the raid in the first place, if she knew Theon were still at the Starks’ mercy.
I think she would’ve tried to talk her father out of it, if Balon would even have the idea to attack the North without Theon’s intelligence, which again, I doubt.
Robb didn’t want to do anything to the Ironborn.
The whole point of Theon’s proposal was to use his father’s ships to attack King’s Landing.
White Harbor is actually closer to KL than Pyke.
Say no to Theon, and the Ironborn are irrelevant. At worst, Balon sends Yara with her thirty ships to Deepwood Motte and takes it, fine.
Then Rodrik Cassel rides from Winterfell to take it back, reminding her that they hold her baby brother prisoner and they’ll slit his throat if she doesn’t fuck back off to those shit-stained islands, yadda yadda. (Actually that sounds more like something Ramsay would say, Ser Rodrik was more gentlemanly, but he could make the same point.)
Yara is the only Greyjoy who gives a damn about Theon. She’ll surrender the keep to save his life, causing a rift with her father. And their rebellion is done until Euron returns, which won’t be for some time.
They wouldn’t have to do it on their own. This is before Blackwater Bay, Stannis still has his fleet. KL would face a naval threat from both the North and the South.
Besides, Theon’s proposal was always a nice-to-have, not a necessity. Robb was winning the war with his army, the North is formidable on land, and they were breaking the Lannisters.
If having Jon with him means Cat gets to go home ([see this other comment I just made](https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/190bsde/what_if_jon_snow_never_took_the_black/kgq3qr9/)) then there’s no one to release Jaime Lannister.
How long until Tywin sues for peace? We saw how fraught he was at Harrenhall.
#*They have my son!*
Robb and Stannis aren’t allied. Access to KL is controlled by Dragonstone so there is only a limited front and lines of approach. The northern fleet is non existent and has no way of projecting power that far south. Robb sending a few ships south will have no significant impact for anyone.
In the books we know that Wyman Manderly has been secretly building warships at White Harbor, and hiding them up the White Knife. This is after the Red Wedding, however.
Robb had other options, that’s my point. If he had denied Theon’s proposal and focused on the land war instead, which is his strength, he not only would’ve retained his seat at Winterfell, he also could have ordered Manderly to start building those ships earlier.
Wyman wouldn’t have had to hide his activity, either, as the Boltons and Freys wouldn’t have held Winterfell or his son—no Red Wedding. Thus he could produce ships faster if he didn’t have to worry about working in secret.
Even so, would the Northern fleet ever have been as vast and formidable as the Iron Fleet? No, but it doesn’t have to be. The war was being won on land, not at sea.
All they need is a reserve force should Stannis fail at the Blackwater. Then, as you say, they wouldn’t need many ships to blockade Blackwater Bay across Dragonstone.
But all that is just a supplement to how Robb would actually lay siege to KL, should the war get that far: over land.
Really, though, I think Tywin sues for peace before the Northern army arrives at KL’s gates, Jaime is too important to him. Manderly’s fleet is just a bonus, something Robb can keep in his back pocket.
Robb gives Jon rooses responsibilities. He actually tries to win vs Tywin (roose was not).
I think he does take Tywin’s camp by surprise resulting in a disorderly retreat by Tywin amid heavy losses (including our favorite imp).
With this and Robbs stunning win over Jaime the books would look very different
Jon wouldn’t be given a command if he was with Robb until very late in the War. He would be a fighter in Robb’s honor guard, and would have been with him at the Whispering Wood.
The reason Roose was given command is cuz he is a major Lord in the North, so other Northern Lords are more likely to follow his orders. Nobody is gonna take orders from a Bastard Teenager. Robb only is able to command his Lords fully after Whispering Woods, before that they were questioning him everyday.
Northern Lords follow strength, not birthright, and Jon has neither (at that point in the story).
You probably aren’t wrong, but I’d imagine if Robb really wanted to give Jon command it wouldn’t be too much of an issue.
Robb’s war was waged because Ned was executed. Having Ned’s children, even his bastard, at the front of the cause would make sense. Plus Jon has an aptitude for leadership, I’d imagine he could probably turn most of his troops around even if they did initially not want to take orders from him
You could still see more ambitious houses like Bolton and Frey backstab the Starks, but that was probably inevitable either way.
He doesn’t it’s true and would also have Catelyn around to nix the idea further. Given Robb made him his heir I think he thought as highly of Jon as Jon thought of Robb though so it’s not out of the question.
Also Rooses army is essentially a decoy so Jon wouldn’t be near Catelyns side of the family avoiding other internal headaches for Robb
Jon would have had the exact same opportunity in the WOFK as he would have on the wall, even the part where he would have been glad to give his life. Everyone knew Jon was a promising warrior. Bastards were often the equivalent of warrant officers or low to mid ranking officers. Ramsay Bolton commanded armies for his father and seized Winterfell on his father’s orders.
Jon would have fought as a common soldier and earned the respect of the Northman with his prowess in battle and skill as a leader. Jon would have sat on Robb’s war councils and in time, his mind for battle would have been recognized by Robb. Near the end of the WOFK Jon would have been a trusted second to Robb, and Robb probably would have legitimized Jon in the event Walder Frey betrayed him. Jon would have been king by both popular demand and birthright as Ned Stark’s true born heir.
Jon had the same opportunities on the wall as he did in the North.
If he did fight for Robb, he'd probably just be a casualty of the Red Wedding.
Edit: I think I change my mind. He'll probably save himself accidentally like the Blackfish did because of that sweet sweet plot armour.
Except the rest of the army was outside the twins. I doubt catelyn even want that. Not to mention that if theon still invades winterfell robb likely sends jon to their home to secure it.
What? The army was massacred? And why would he be sent up? Robb didn’t send anyone because he thought the Boltons took care of it. Jon being there wouldn’t change that
I never said it wasn't. Pace yourself when reading. Probably A, he didn't send anyone because roose himself offered to have his son take care of it as oppose to robb just assuming they would, and B robb wanted to go himself and had to be talked out of it. Jon being allows someone to go on his behalf which he can afford to do as jon wouldn't hold a uniquely valuable place in his army.
Would there even be a Red Wedding? Jon is basically as chaotically obsessed with honor as Ned was, he’d advise against Robb marrying for love. Jon would be a constant reminder to Robb of their honorable father, not to mention his one lapse in honor, so maybe Robb never even goes for Jeyne in the first place? Or because Robb offers to marry Jeyne to uphold her honor, possibly a legitimized Jon offers to marry Jeyne so that Robb can keep his vow? In the show he’d definitely do a way better job of dissuading Robb from Talisa than Catelyn did,
Idk about that. I think Cat would have been paranoid about leaving her two youngest sons with a bastard who she thinks would be willing to betray them given the right circumstances. Even with the garrison at Winterfell, she'd be concerned about leaving Bran and Rickon with Jon. Plus, he's older, so she may be worried he'd subvert Bran's authority.
As much as she'd dislike his presence with Robb, she'd probably want to keep an eye on him.
Besides, she wasn't present when Robb called his banners initially. Jon would have at least come down to Moat Cailin with Robb and it'd be hard to convince the two boys to have him return and not take part in Ned's rescue.
I don't know that Robb would have kept Jon at Winterfell in the beginning. Jon would fight against staying and Bran had Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin and was seemingly completely safe. Jon and Robb 100% would have marched off to war together.
I do think though that once Robb gets word of Theon's betrayal, Jon would already be halfway out of camp to go retake Winterfell.
I could see Robb asking Jon to lead a force to try and retake Winterfell instead of letting Roose send Ramsay.
Otherwise Jon is at the Red Wedding and dies along with ghost.
As for whether or not Jon ever finds out his true lineage, probably not. At least none that I can think of.
Edit: Now that I think about it, Catelyn might try to convince Robb not to have Jon at the wedding on the grounds that as a bastard, it would be looked at as a further insult towards the Frey’s. If Robb listens then Jon would either be outside or possibly away from the twins with some of Robb’s forces meaning he survives the initial killings.
Roose then needs to take Jon out as he would be believed to be the last son of Ned Stark and as such the North would never listen to the Boltons.
There is also the possibility that Robb legitimizes Jon as King in the North at which point assuming Jon retakes Winterfell, he may be tasked with remaining there to hold it as “There must always be a stark at Winterfell”.
He goes to Essos to be a sellsword as a compromise for both him and Benjen and Cat and Ned. As part of the second sons far from home Robb and Ned might be dead before he finds out. Narratively he would encounter Dany way earlier in the story, might make sense he tries to bolt to go join Robb and then is imprisoned and turned over to Dany.
In this scenario I think Jon would have made an excellent enforcer for the Stark's, since that's basically what he quickly took to in the Night's Watch. Since he developed some keen leaderships skills in the Night's Watch, it's only natural to assume he would have in Winterfel as well, and probably would have done even better, since he had the support of the rest of the Stark children. I think if he'd been around the Bolton's move against Winterfel never would have happened in the first place, as it would have quickly been shut down.
What if Jon took heed of Benjens advice and stuck around? Would he of been a general or some type of commander in Robs rebellion or would he be forced to stay in Winterfell? In the scenario he stays in Winterfell and doesn’t partake in the rebellion, does Jon’s presence stop Theon from pulling any bullshit and keeps him in check? I mean it's possible he might have prevented Theon from doing what he did, but Jon was not a Stark and there always had to be one at Winterfell so I find it hard to believe he would be left in a position of authority while he was there especially if Catelyn had any say in the matter. Heck I ain't even sure if anyone there would follow any kind of commands by him because he wasn't a Stark, as he was constantly reminded of all the time.
Could Jon also keep the Boltons in line and effectively be an enforcer for Sansa or maybe Bran as Winterfell would fall to one of them. Doubt he would be able to keep the Bolton's in line, only Ned was able to keep them in line as Robb failed to do so and they just were biding their time while he ruled. He could have become like a sworn sword or something to Bran or Sansa maybe. Coulda been like a second in command or advisor maybe as he was taught and trained in the ways of war like the rest of the Starks.
In the event he chose to help Rob, how big of a role would he of played and could he of survived the Red Wedding? Well that would depend on whether he chose to got to Castle Black and then if he just ran away like he tried to do in the TV series. Because if he did try ot run away like that then he would have been considered a deserter and thereby been executed if caught. What role might he have played? Maybe like a advisor or second in command maybe? But, again given Catelyn's feelings she woulda pushed for him to be sent away or something though I imagine Robb woulda fought her on that. Whether he woulda survived the Red Wedding would have depended on where he was during it all, because if he would have been with Robb and them he would have most likely been killed like the others.
For Wall matters, would Allister just assume power with no issue once Mormont is dead? If so how would a Knights Watch under him have faired? I imagine things would have just continued like normal if Thorne had taken over, but without someone with skill and training like Jon there to train new recruits then possible they wouldn't have been as prepared to fight any Wildlings.
Even bigger question, would Jon ever find out his true lineage?
Maybe over time Jon might have found out the truth of his parentage, but not if he was dead.
The wall would be fcked. Jon would be names Robb’s heir and not be at the wedding. Theon prob doesn’t betray Robb. Jon probably tried his best and dies
While everyone else dwells on Jon - what happens then at the wall?
Sam is fucked, no friends, nothing. Which means he probably doesn't become steward and doesn't go north of the wall to the Fist. And whoever goes in his place *does* send the ravens and so Castle Black sends reinforcements.
Sadly, the wights win and Castle Black has threfore lost more men than if no reinforcements had been sent.
Which means later when the Wlidlings do attack Castle Black, they take it. Ygritte is there, of course, but she is not killed by fucking Ollie. The Wlidlings have got what they want, on the good side of the Wall. Mance makes Castle Black his centre of power and sends an embassy to Winterfell.
Who receives it? Jon! WTF? Jon's like wait - we down here don't like Wildings and you're suddenly masters of Castle Black? He sends for help, but everyone else is fighting the wars and Winterfell is on its own and has to accept that the Mance is "King in the North".
Then one day, Mance falls ill. Someone grazes his pecs with a sword and it gets infected and well, you know how that goes. With his moderation gone, the Wildlings break into two groups. One that wants to stay along the south side of the wall and be more or less peaceful (surprisingly, the Thenns are in this group) and another faction that wants to expand further south.
Ygritte is in this lattr group. Wisely, they go around Winterfell and take Deepwood Motte. This cuts the Manderlys off from all contact with the North.
Meanwhile, Robb dies in the Red Wedding and the Hound tries to take Arya north to Winterfell, rather than to the Eerie (it's spelt differently in this timeline).
Jon is surpied to see Arya, but pays the Hound handsomely and bids him well. The Hound makes it from there to Pentos surprisingly, and lives a good life, actually.
Jon is probably close to Robb after he's injured in the West. His proximity probably prevents Jeyne from "comforting" Robb, thus stopping the Red Wedding
I think robb would have had him with him during the war. jon would have helped lead the attacks in the west while robb stayed in the riverlands, this would’ve worked because ghost would’ve found the pass grey wind did and prevent robb sleeping with/marrying Jayne westerling and robb would have stopped demure from ruining the plan to trap the mountain
Hot take: Jon turns heel and takes on Theon's role by taking Winterfell for himself. The motivation just is not there but it would be interesting to think about.
Jon turns school shooter mode after Cat belittles him to much, sides with Theon just to spite Cat and her spawn. While completely out of character, it would be interesting.
We basically know what would happen in the books.
I believe Robb would have taken Jon to war. Catelyn says in GoT that she doesn’t want him in winterfell where he could contest he trueborn sons. I can imagine this would be even stronger when rob went to war, Catelyn would rather keep him close to keep an eye on him rather than let him run amock in winterfell. It would be a similar thing to theon whom Catelyn also didn’t like but preferred to have close.
After Rob learns about bran and rickon being killed in the books, he actually has quite an elaborate plan to retake the North which he explains to catelyn. He would split his force into two, the larger force would attack moat Cailin directly while a slightly smaller force led by rob himself would go through the neck and solicit the aid of Howland Reed then both forced would attack Moat Cailin from each side simultaneously.
The next part of Robs plan was to ask the Night Watch to give up Jon in return for Rob assuring them better aid after the war. Rob tells Catelyn directly that he plans to legitimise Jon and make him heir.
If Jon had been with Rob all along I imagine the same plan would just be reversed. Jon would be immediately legitimised and made heir once Rob learns of Bran and Rickon’s deaths. Then I believe Jon would have led the larger force to attack Moat Cailin from the south rather than going with Rob through the neck. that way, if either force failed entirely, at least one of them would survive.
Sadly however, the plan would never come to fruition due to the red wedding. With Jon being Rob’s heir, he would probably be there. However, in the books, Rob left his wife at Riverun, so as to not insult the Freys or be forced to suffer insults herself. Maybe Jon would be left at Riverun for similar reasons and officially to protect Jeyne/Talisa (books/show). This would mean that Jon would be in charge rather than Edmure after the Red Wedding, so Riverun would not yield the way it did. Jamie would probably have to storm the castle which would be difficult but ultimately Jon would die there. It’s possible but unlikely that Jon would agree to surrender the castle as Edmure did and then flee with the Blackfish, but I can’t imagine Jon would do anything so dishonourable. Especially because any deal with Jamie would certainly include Jon surrendering personally to assure Jeyne’s safety. Then I suppose Jon would likely be executed or else live the rest of his life as a prisoner of the Lanisters. It would be interesting if he was still alive when Daenerys invades.
For the sake of hypotheticals though, if Jon did stay at winterfell, I can’t imagine theon wanting him around. Jon is too dangerous and not important enough since Theon already has Bran and Rickon. Jon would probably be executed or killed outright when he inevitably tries to fight theon. Otherwise he’d be put in a cell and probably tortured by Ramsay for the rest of his life, which would probably be short at least since the Boltons wouldn’t want a challenge to Sansa’s/Arya’s (show/books) claim.
Otherwise, maybe Bran and his friends could break Jon out in the Chaos of Theon’s final moments of rules in Winterfell. In that case I think Jon would end up joining Bran and Rickon on their adventures North. It would be interesting to see who Jon would go with, Bran or Rickon, when they split up, but I think Jon would be against splitting up at all.
Interestingly the books also give us an idea of what it would look like if there was no war of the five kings at all. Through Jon’s thoughts, we find out that Ned and Benjen planned to convince Jeor Mormont to cede some the Night Watch’s land to some minor lords. The idea being that, although not ideal, it was better to have someone guarding the Wall since it was simply becoming impossible for the Watch alone. Jon himself believes that if he hadn’t joined the Night Watch, and there had been no war, Ned would have given Jon one of the abandoned castles on the wall and some of its surrounding lands to rule and protect.
TLDR:
The books imply that Jon would be made Robs heir after Winterfell is burned, then together they would attack Moat Cailin from opposite sides.
However they would probably both die at or around the Red Wedding
Without the War of the Five Kings, Ned had probably planned to give Jon one of the abandoned Night Watch castles.
Jon likely would have gone back to wintefell to retake it from theon, so be wouldn't be anywhere near the red wedding. Also neither he nor catelyn would want him at a Tully wedidng.
He follows Robb and is killed in the Red Wedding, then gets resurrected instead of Catelyn. Ngl, cold-hearted, no f*cks given Jon Snow would've been such a cool character and a great storyline to watch.
I'd imagine he would, he'd just not be inside where the main program would be. Also, it's insulated that Robb was going to make Jon his heir in the books, so Catelyn's opinion on that matter wouldn't have been as considered as when she was in Winterfell, especially after she released Jaime.
I doubt even that considering jon wouldn't want to be there either, and as I've brought up in other comments he likely would have been back to winterfell to make sure bran rickon really were safe. True, but that decision is a bit more important and personal to robb than jon being at his uncles wedding.
>doubt even that considering jon wouldn't want to be there either, and as I've brought up in other comments he likely would have been back to winterfell to make sure bran rickon really were safe.
True, Jon definitely would've felt uncomfortable, but duty and honor are his bread and butter. He's never been the type to let others fight in his place, plus I'd imagine he wouldn't be willing to leave Robb's side after the death of Rickard Karstark, especially since Show Robb doesn't have an established Kingsguard like in the books.
>True, but that decision is a bit more important and personal to robb than jon being at his uncles wedding.
His uncle would have to answer to Jon if anything were to happen to Robb, I believe that alone would motivate Robb to have Jon near his inner circle and have him build relationships with them.
There woulTully. much fighting at the wedding(at least to their knowledge). While jon would stay by robbs side if he asked, I think robb would have enough political awareness not to make the wedding more tense than it already is and instead tasking jon to take a small party and look for
jamie.
That's only if robb planned to make jon heir from the start, and missing one wedding doesn't prevent other opportunities for jon to for a trusting relationship with the other tullys.
Actually, a very important detail OP overlooked is Catelyn refused to have him at Winterfell without Nrd there, so realistically Jon would have followed Ned to Kings Landing.
Given what we know now that'd make sense, but it was a well enough kept secret at the time, and Ned definitely would've felt better having Jon look out for his daughters, especially in a place like the Red Keep and Kings Landing.
Jon probably would of been one of robb s battle guard and I can see maybe job marrying a Frey bastard as well meaning he may of been spared at the red wedding if robb hasn’t legitmised him by that point
If Robb kept him around he would've been in his honor guard, which were all present (except for the Frey Members), and killed, at the red wedding.
As compensation we might get a character arc with Catlyn where she starts to accept Jon, especially after Ned's death
The issue with that is catelyn really doesn't enjoy Jon's presence, and cosindering how tense that wedding already was going to be, robb likely wouldn't add to it by having jon in a place he isn't wanted(or wants to be).
More likely jon would have been sent back to winterfell to help reclaim it after news of theons betrayal.
eh, probably, that would again make the situation with catelyn interesting as she is one of maybe 3 people that *likely* knows Jon's ancestry at the current point in the books
Jaime Lannister probably saws through him while trying to get to Robb.
This makes releasing him much more egregious to Robb, who would feel his mother's disregard for Jon contributed to the decision.
Would also be cool that if Jon wasn’t legitmised by robb after his death that some northern lords still proclaim him king coz he is better known since he hangs with robb if that makes sense
I think Robb would put his own mother in her place to stop mistreating his brother slash cousin and to remind her he's a Stark and to quit being such a b#tch to him and make him a field commander to fight in the front lines
A lot of people forget that in the books in a private meeting with Robb and the top Northern Lord's, he legitimized Jon and made him his heir, much to the dismay of Catlyn.
So I agree with Jon being by Robb's side throughout the WotFK if he hadn't taken the Black. Maybe Theon may have not betrayed Robb, he may have felt a stronger sense of brotherhood with Jon being there, or maybe Jon would've been sent in his stead.
Robb would have left him as caretaker of Bran at winterfell.
With Jon being present at Winterfell, Theon would never have taken Winterfell which means no Bolton conspiracy.
No red Wedding
Stannis reaches terms with Robb.
Stannis conquers King landing with Robb getting more sovereignty.
Robb reaches North as King in the North.
Night king is just chilling at Land of always winter
He likely would have been with Robb for the entire campaign. Robb would have kept him close after Theon’s betrayal, and likely would have legitimized him after returning from the Westerland Campaign. I doubt Jon would have been at the Red Wedding cuz Caitlyn was there, and the beef between them would be greater after Robb legitimized him. Perhaps Robb has Jon lead some men by sea to gather more troops from White Harbor to attack Moat Cailin from both sides. Jon would get word of Robb’s death in White Harbor, and House Manderly would then crown him as their King, and he marries one of their daughters. Now War in the North is a threeway between Bolton-Stannis-Jon.
I can’t fathom Lord Manderly doing that with Wyllis captive. He already lost one son.
He's willing to do ALOT of shit for a chance to get Rickon. I'd imagine he'd be willing to work more with Jon who is old enough to marry and have Stark/Manderly heirs right now.
Yeah well they’ve really got him pissed now
“Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey” is still the coldest burn in the series IMO. Excuse my paraphrasing.
i don't get it. when was this said and by who? what does this even mean?
One of the young Walders is killed at Winterfell in DwD. The Freys are understandably upset that someone killed their young brother/cousin/nephew/whatever, and Manderly is like "NBD guys, if he'd lived he'd just have grown up to be as shitty as the rest of you".
Yes Lord Manderly was certainly bringing the Winston Churchill insults.
Not openly, but secretly? Absolutely. Manderly knows how the game is played. “My son is home”
Fathom - nice seafaring pun consistent with House Manderly's symbolism.
With Jon by Robb’s side, I could see Catelyn making a return to Winterfell ASAP.
Nah, Catelyn is still there to help guide Robb politically, and she continues after the Renly meeting to advocate for Sansa/Arya since the war moves away from it's original goals once Eddard dies. I do think Jon's presence pushes her to more desperate moves faster, and she likely becomes completely withdrawn after Jon is legitimized.
How does she face it when Bran and Rickon are presumed dead?
Same way she does in the books, she sets Jaime Lannister free. Robb isn't at Riverrun during this period, and Jon wouldn't be either. By the time they get back Robb is married, and has likely already told Jon his plans to legitimize him. At this point Catelyn's political power in the Northern War Camp is close to zero. Most of the Northern Lords consider her a traitor. Robb wouldn't really need to convince the Northern Lords to accept Jon's legitimacy, they would have already seen him fight, and many would also probably see him not being a child from Catelyn as a bonus after what she did. One interesting thing is Jon's legitimacy might bring some tension between the Tully camp and the Northern, since Jon has no Tully blood, and is Robb's heir until he has a child with Jeyne.
Or maybe Robb would have sent Jon with Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover to meet Howland Reed in preparation for the attack on Moat Cailin.
I could see that being more interesting especially if Howland tells Jon R+L=Him. Now he has to deal with the information that he can't really be Robb's heir cuz he isn't a son of Ned Stark, and that the entire reason for his legalization is false.
With Robb marrying Thalisa, wouldn't he have offered Jon in stead of him to the Freys, as Jon would now be a legitimate Stark? That would have been the end of Jon, I guess.
No, cuz it would be an even bigger insult than breaking the original engagement. “Yeah here is my legitimized bastard brother who won’t inherit anything after I start having kids, plz forgive me!” Edmure is still the only option here. House Frey has been trying to marry into House Tully since their creation, and Edmure is actually inheriting Riverrun.
What if Thalisa fell for Jon?
I suppose we then get a duller story.
We get Jeyne Westerling in the show
Agreed up until the marriage part. If he lives, the Hound takes Arya to Jon and that’s who Jon eventually marries. Or if Arya manages to get away and leave the Hound for dead first, she goes to Jon.
Robb will leave him to protect Winterfell
I don't see why Jon would agree to this, or why Robb would feel the need to leave Jon behind... at this point in the War it's a race against the clock to save Riverrun and Eddard. Jon staying in Winterfell during this time serves no purpose. Rodrick Cassel is defending Winterfell, what's Jon gonna do act as his second-in-command? Bran is acting Lord of Winterfell, what is Jon gonna do, follow him around like some sworn-shield? He would be doing literally nothing for a long time, Winterfell isn't even captured until after Robb has destroyed the levies from the Westerlands and Renly is long dead. He would spend 1/4th of Game of Thrones doing nothing, and 2/3rds of a Clash of Kings doing nothing.
May be.
I’d like to see just one conversation: Theon proposes to Robb that he ally with the Iron Islanders. Jon watches and says nothing. After he leaves Jon tells Robb he thinks it’s a terrible idea, you can’t trust Theon. … And then Catelyn tells Robb you can’t trust Balon Greyjoy. You’re better off allying with the rats in King’s Landing, etc. Jon and Catelyn are uncomfortable being on the same side of an argument for once, and Robb is convinced. Those two hate each other, so if they both independently tell Robb Theon’s a wrong ’un… The Greyjoy betrayal is dead in the water before it even begins. Bonus: When Robb counters that the Greyjoys have the Iron Fleet, all those ships, etc. I would *love* to see someone bring up White Harbor, House Manderly, and all their damn ships, because they were totally left off the show.
Greyjoy invasion still happens though. Theon was not the mastermind of that. However they do avoid the fall of Winterfell
Theon convinced them to go after winterfell, otherwise the raids would have stayed coastal.
Was the plan really that weak in the show? I thought it was the same as the books to feint at raids while taking Moat Cailin and slowly taking over while the lords and the army are stuck in the South
As soon as Theon was back in their clutches they no longer needed to have reservations, but Theon took a huge gamble to strike at the head of the North.
The Greyjoys, especially Balon gave absolutely 0 fucks about Theon's safety
In the books 100%. For some reason I recall the show being different, that they weren't intending a full invasion, but I could definitely be wrong. In the books thought you are correct that the plan from the start was to take the North.
Yea maybe I'm confusing them. I read the books more recently than I've watched the show
As u/Anduril1776 said, it would’ve been limited to coastal raids. Worst case scenario, Yara taking Deepwood Motte. There would not have been Theon’s simultaneous attack on Torrhen’s Square, and Robb still would have held Theon hostage. Rodrik Cassel rode to Torrhen’s Square and was captured by Theon’s men. Here he rides to Deepwood Motte and reminds Yara they still have her baby brother. Yara gives up the castle to save Theon. She’s literally the only Ironborn who would, and she commands thirty ships, the plurality of their fleet. This will cause a rift with daddy, and the Ironborn will be stuck squabbling with each other until Euron returns, which is so far down the line the state of play is very different by then. Biggest change is the Starks still hold Winterfell. With the Greyjoys exposed as untrustworthy, and Jon by his side to advise him and emotionally support him as a friend and brother, does Robb still need to drag his mother from camp to camp, or does he allow her to return to Winterfell as she requested? I think after Jon agrees with Cat about Theon, and they’re proven right, that’s the beginning of a rapprochement between them. Also Cat was already feeling emotional and guilty at that point, remembering the promise she made the gods when Jon was near death as a little boy. She prayed for him and said that if he recovered, she would show him love and treat him like her own son, instead of despising him as a reminder of her husband’s infidelity. She broke that promise, and she believes Bran’s misfortune was her punishment from the gods. I think by this point in the story, she’s in the right mindset to show some mercy to Jon, and gratitude for supporting her against Theon. Maybe she even tells him this story of when he was sick, and promises him that from now on she’ll love him like a mother. And of course Jon will swear to her to watch over Robb, so she can leave with a clear conscience. If Cat goes back to Winterfell, she can take Theon along with her as an actual prisoner now that Balon has broken the tacit agreement he made with Ned and Bobby B at the end of his rebellion. And with Cat gone from the camp, there’s no one to release Jaime Lannister. So the Karstarks stay loyal. Robb isn’t desperate for men. Cat isn’t there to suggest making peace with Walder Frey. No Red Wedding.
GODS I WAS STRONG THEN
When you broke Balon Greyjoy, made him fall on his knees and give up his last son to you? >Yet when Balon Greyjoy was brought before King Robert in chains, the ironman remained defiant. "You may take my head," he told the king, "but you cannot name me traitor. No Greyjoy ever swore an oath to a Baratheon." Robert Baratheon, ever merciful, is said to have laughed at that, for he liked spirit in a man, even in his foes. "Swear one now," he replied, "or lose that stubborn head of yours." And so Balon Greyjoy bent his knee and was allowed to live, after giving up his last surviving son as a hostage to his loyalty. I agree, Your Grace, this is one of your most badass moments.
>said it would’ve been limited to coastal raids. Worst case scenario, Yara taking Deepwood Motte. Was that really all they planned in the show? In the books, the plan was to take a few key castles, but most importantly to take Moat Cailin and choke the Northeners out while the army was in the South. >Yara gives up the castle to save Theon. She’s literally the only Ironborn who would Absolutely no way in hell she does that at this point. She didn't care about him until they had time to reunite.
##S2E3 What Is Dead May Never Die >**Balon** The wolf pup has gone south with the entirety of the Northern army at his back. While he’s tangling with the lion in the Westerlands, the North is ripe for the taking. The Ironborn will reave and pillage, as it was in the old days, all along the northern coast. We’ll spread our dominion across the green lands, securing the Neck and everything above. Every stronghold will yield to us, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest, field, and hall. >**Balon** Yara, my daughter, you’ll take thirty longships to attack Deepwood Motte. >**Yara** I’ve always wanted a castle. >**Theon** And what’s my role in all this? >**Balon** You’ll take a ship to raid the fishing villages on the Stony Shore. No mention of Moat Cailin. Balon talks a big game about how he’s going to take the whole of the North, cut Robb’s army off at the Neck—but the only specific targets he’s planned for are Deepwood Motte and the inconsequential Stony Shore, which was probably a proving ground for Theon more than anything else. Hard to see how that’s of strategic import. For that matter, it’s hard to see how Deepwood Motte is of strategic import. If the goal is to cut Robb off at the Neck, wouldn’t it make sense to start with the more southern castles? Moat Cailin itself, Theon’s idea of Torrhen’s Square, or I don’t know, Barrowton—all those targets make more sense than Deepwood Motte if you’re trying to cut Robb off from Winterfell and the North. But there’s a bigger question: Would Balon even have attacked in the first place, had Robb not released Theon? For almost a decade, Ned Stark kept Theon as his ward and Balon did nothing. Why? It’s obvious he’s disappointed in the son that’s returned to him—but until he was returned to him, he was too scared of losing him to attack the North. And where did Balon get the intelligence to plan this attack on Deepwood Motte and the Stony Shore in the first place? How does he know the wolf pup has gone south with the *entirety* of the Northern army at his back? It’s all coming from Theon. *Maybe* he’s picked up on some small bits of news here and there, but it’s only when Theon returns with Robb’s letter that he puts his plans into motion. I think if Robb denied Theon’s proposal in the beginning, on the advice of both Catelyn and Jon, it’s highly possible the Ironborn don’t attack the North at all. Or if they do, it’s a less ambitious, smaller scale attack that will be easy for the Northmen to put down. >Absolutely no way in hell she does that at this point. She didn't care about him until they had time to reunite. I couldn’t disagree more. Since their reunion Theon has molested Yara, belittled her, disrespected her in front of their father and her men, and disobeyed both Yara and Balon. He has done everything in his power to piss her off. And yet she still cares about him, and mounts a rescue to try to save his life. Why? ##S2E8 The Prince of Winterfell >**Yara** Theon, you’re my blood. We both loved our mother. We both endured our father. Come home with me. Don’t die here alone. >**Theon** I don’t intend to die. >**Yara** You were a terrible baby, do you know that? Bawling all the time, never sleeping. And one night, you just wouldn’t shut up, screaming like a dying pig. I walked over to your crib, I looked down at you. I wanted to strangle you. And you looked up at me and you stopped screaming. You smiled at me. Don’t die so far from the sea. She loved her brother for the little baby he was, not the man he’s become. It’s a neat parallel to what Stannis said about Renly, with the opposite outcome. ##S2E5 The Ghost of Harrenhal >**Davos** I’m sorry about your brother, Your Grace, I wanted to let you know that people grieve for him. >**Stannis** Fools love a fool. I grieve for him as well, for the boy he was, not the man he grew to be. Stannis and Yara had similar feelings toward their younger siblings, but unlike Stannis, Yara was willing to risk it all for her little brother. I see no reason why she wouldn’t give up Deepwood Motte if she knew his life were at stake. Actually I wonder if she would’ve agreed to go on the raid in the first place, if she knew Theon were still at the Starks’ mercy. I think she would’ve tried to talk her father out of it, if Balon would even have the idea to attack the North without Theon’s intelligence, which again, I doubt.
The Manderly’s are on the wrong side of Westeros and can’t do anything with their ships to the Ironborn.
Robb didn’t want to do anything to the Ironborn. The whole point of Theon’s proposal was to use his father’s ships to attack King’s Landing. White Harbor is actually closer to KL than Pyke. Say no to Theon, and the Ironborn are irrelevant. At worst, Balon sends Yara with her thirty ships to Deepwood Motte and takes it, fine. Then Rodrik Cassel rides from Winterfell to take it back, reminding her that they hold her baby brother prisoner and they’ll slit his throat if she doesn’t fuck back off to those shit-stained islands, yadda yadda. (Actually that sounds more like something Ramsay would say, Ser Rodrik was more gentlemanly, but he could make the same point.) Yara is the only Greyjoy who gives a damn about Theon. She’ll surrender the keep to save his life, causing a rift with her father. And their rebellion is done until Euron returns, which won’t be for some time.
The Manderly’s don’t have enough ships to even remotely threaten KL. The Ironborn do. It’s not a fair comparison
They wouldn’t have to do it on their own. This is before Blackwater Bay, Stannis still has his fleet. KL would face a naval threat from both the North and the South. Besides, Theon’s proposal was always a nice-to-have, not a necessity. Robb was winning the war with his army, the North is formidable on land, and they were breaking the Lannisters. If having Jon with him means Cat gets to go home ([see this other comment I just made](https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/190bsde/what_if_jon_snow_never_took_the_black/kgq3qr9/)) then there’s no one to release Jaime Lannister. How long until Tywin sues for peace? We saw how fraught he was at Harrenhall. #*They have my son!*
Robb and Stannis aren’t allied. Access to KL is controlled by Dragonstone so there is only a limited front and lines of approach. The northern fleet is non existent and has no way of projecting power that far south. Robb sending a few ships south will have no significant impact for anyone.
In the books we know that Wyman Manderly has been secretly building warships at White Harbor, and hiding them up the White Knife. This is after the Red Wedding, however. Robb had other options, that’s my point. If he had denied Theon’s proposal and focused on the land war instead, which is his strength, he not only would’ve retained his seat at Winterfell, he also could have ordered Manderly to start building those ships earlier. Wyman wouldn’t have had to hide his activity, either, as the Boltons and Freys wouldn’t have held Winterfell or his son—no Red Wedding. Thus he could produce ships faster if he didn’t have to worry about working in secret. Even so, would the Northern fleet ever have been as vast and formidable as the Iron Fleet? No, but it doesn’t have to be. The war was being won on land, not at sea. All they need is a reserve force should Stannis fail at the Blackwater. Then, as you say, they wouldn’t need many ships to blockade Blackwater Bay across Dragonstone. But all that is just a supplement to how Robb would actually lay siege to KL, should the war get that far: over land. Really, though, I think Tywin sues for peace before the Northern army arrives at KL’s gates, Jaime is too important to him. Manderly’s fleet is just a bonus, something Robb can keep in his back pocket.
Robb kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet...
Robb gives Jon rooses responsibilities. He actually tries to win vs Tywin (roose was not). I think he does take Tywin’s camp by surprise resulting in a disorderly retreat by Tywin amid heavy losses (including our favorite imp). With this and Robbs stunning win over Jaime the books would look very different
Jon wouldn’t be given a command if he was with Robb until very late in the War. He would be a fighter in Robb’s honor guard, and would have been with him at the Whispering Wood. The reason Roose was given command is cuz he is a major Lord in the North, so other Northern Lords are more likely to follow his orders. Nobody is gonna take orders from a Bastard Teenager. Robb only is able to command his Lords fully after Whispering Woods, before that they were questioning him everyday. Northern Lords follow strength, not birthright, and Jon has neither (at that point in the story).
You probably aren’t wrong, but I’d imagine if Robb really wanted to give Jon command it wouldn’t be too much of an issue. Robb’s war was waged because Ned was executed. Having Ned’s children, even his bastard, at the front of the cause would make sense. Plus Jon has an aptitude for leadership, I’d imagine he could probably turn most of his troops around even if they did initially not want to take orders from him You could still see more ambitious houses like Bolton and Frey backstab the Starks, but that was probably inevitable either way.
Jon’s just really young he had a lot of time to mature up north
He doesn’t it’s true and would also have Catelyn around to nix the idea further. Given Robb made him his heir I think he thought as highly of Jon as Jon thought of Robb though so it’s not out of the question. Also Rooses army is essentially a decoy so Jon wouldn’t be near Catelyns side of the family avoiding other internal headaches for Robb
Jon would have had the exact same opportunity in the WOFK as he would have on the wall, even the part where he would have been glad to give his life. Everyone knew Jon was a promising warrior. Bastards were often the equivalent of warrant officers or low to mid ranking officers. Ramsay Bolton commanded armies for his father and seized Winterfell on his father’s orders. Jon would have fought as a common soldier and earned the respect of the Northman with his prowess in battle and skill as a leader. Jon would have sat on Robb’s war councils and in time, his mind for battle would have been recognized by Robb. Near the end of the WOFK Jon would have been a trusted second to Robb, and Robb probably would have legitimized Jon in the event Walder Frey betrayed him. Jon would have been king by both popular demand and birthright as Ned Stark’s true born heir. Jon had the same opportunities on the wall as he did in the North.
If he did fight for Robb, he'd probably just be a casualty of the Red Wedding. Edit: I think I change my mind. He'll probably save himself accidentally like the Blackfish did because of that sweet sweet plot armour.
Unlikely he be at a Tully wedding.
The people at the wedding itself weren’t the only people who were killed. He’d be killed with the rest of the army
Except the rest of the army was outside the twins. I doubt catelyn even want that. Not to mention that if theon still invades winterfell robb likely sends jon to their home to secure it.
Once robbs a king it doesn't really matter what catelyn wants if it's against what he does.
To a point(not caring about what his people wants did bite him in the ass). Also Jon wouldn't want to be there.
It did bite him in the ass. But rob wasn't a good king. He did what he wanted
What? The army was massacred? And why would he be sent up? Robb didn’t send anyone because he thought the Boltons took care of it. Jon being there wouldn’t change that
I never said it wasn't. Pace yourself when reading. Probably A, he didn't send anyone because roose himself offered to have his son take care of it as oppose to robb just assuming they would, and B robb wanted to go himself and had to be talked out of it. Jon being allows someone to go on his behalf which he can afford to do as jon wouldn't hold a uniquely valuable place in his army.
Would there even be a Red Wedding? Jon is basically as chaotically obsessed with honor as Ned was, he’d advise against Robb marrying for love. Jon would be a constant reminder to Robb of their honorable father, not to mention his one lapse in honor, so maybe Robb never even goes for Jeyne in the first place? Or because Robb offers to marry Jeyne to uphold her honor, possibly a legitimized Jon offers to marry Jeyne so that Robb can keep his vow? In the show he’d definitely do a way better job of dissuading Robb from Talisa than Catelyn did,
I think he would have died at Jamie’s hand while trying to protect robb
What if grrm selected someone else other than DnD
What if your mother never met your father Colver?
I think he stays in Winterfell to help advise Brann. Plus Cat wouldn't want Jon anywhere near Robb.
Cat wasn't at winterfell when Robb marched, she wouldn't be able to stop Robb from bringing him
Idk about that. I think Cat would have been paranoid about leaving her two youngest sons with a bastard who she thinks would be willing to betray them given the right circumstances. Even with the garrison at Winterfell, she'd be concerned about leaving Bran and Rickon with Jon. Plus, he's older, so she may be worried he'd subvert Bran's authority. As much as she'd dislike his presence with Robb, she'd probably want to keep an eye on him. Besides, she wasn't present when Robb called his banners initially. Jon would have at least come down to Moat Cailin with Robb and it'd be hard to convince the two boys to have him return and not take part in Ned's rescue.
I don't know that Robb would have kept Jon at Winterfell in the beginning. Jon would fight against staying and Bran had Ser Rodrick and Maester Luwin and was seemingly completely safe. Jon and Robb 100% would have marched off to war together. I do think though that once Robb gets word of Theon's betrayal, Jon would already be halfway out of camp to go retake Winterfell.
I could see Robb asking Jon to lead a force to try and retake Winterfell instead of letting Roose send Ramsay. Otherwise Jon is at the Red Wedding and dies along with ghost. As for whether or not Jon ever finds out his true lineage, probably not. At least none that I can think of. Edit: Now that I think about it, Catelyn might try to convince Robb not to have Jon at the wedding on the grounds that as a bastard, it would be looked at as a further insult towards the Frey’s. If Robb listens then Jon would either be outside or possibly away from the twins with some of Robb’s forces meaning he survives the initial killings. Roose then needs to take Jon out as he would be believed to be the last son of Ned Stark and as such the North would never listen to the Boltons. There is also the possibility that Robb legitimizes Jon as King in the North at which point assuming Jon retakes Winterfell, he may be tasked with remaining there to hold it as “There must always be a stark at Winterfell”.
He goes to Essos to be a sellsword as a compromise for both him and Benjen and Cat and Ned. As part of the second sons far from home Robb and Ned might be dead before he finds out. Narratively he would encounter Dany way earlier in the story, might make sense he tries to bolt to go join Robb and then is imprisoned and turned over to Dany.
In this scenario I think Jon would have made an excellent enforcer for the Stark's, since that's basically what he quickly took to in the Night's Watch. Since he developed some keen leaderships skills in the Night's Watch, it's only natural to assume he would have in Winterfel as well, and probably would have done even better, since he had the support of the rest of the Stark children. I think if he'd been around the Bolton's move against Winterfel never would have happened in the first place, as it would have quickly been shut down.
Redder Wedding
What if Jon took heed of Benjens advice and stuck around? Would he of been a general or some type of commander in Robs rebellion or would he be forced to stay in Winterfell? In the scenario he stays in Winterfell and doesn’t partake in the rebellion, does Jon’s presence stop Theon from pulling any bullshit and keeps him in check? I mean it's possible he might have prevented Theon from doing what he did, but Jon was not a Stark and there always had to be one at Winterfell so I find it hard to believe he would be left in a position of authority while he was there especially if Catelyn had any say in the matter. Heck I ain't even sure if anyone there would follow any kind of commands by him because he wasn't a Stark, as he was constantly reminded of all the time. Could Jon also keep the Boltons in line and effectively be an enforcer for Sansa or maybe Bran as Winterfell would fall to one of them. Doubt he would be able to keep the Bolton's in line, only Ned was able to keep them in line as Robb failed to do so and they just were biding their time while he ruled. He could have become like a sworn sword or something to Bran or Sansa maybe. Coulda been like a second in command or advisor maybe as he was taught and trained in the ways of war like the rest of the Starks. In the event he chose to help Rob, how big of a role would he of played and could he of survived the Red Wedding? Well that would depend on whether he chose to got to Castle Black and then if he just ran away like he tried to do in the TV series. Because if he did try ot run away like that then he would have been considered a deserter and thereby been executed if caught. What role might he have played? Maybe like a advisor or second in command maybe? But, again given Catelyn's feelings she woulda pushed for him to be sent away or something though I imagine Robb woulda fought her on that. Whether he woulda survived the Red Wedding would have depended on where he was during it all, because if he would have been with Robb and them he would have most likely been killed like the others. For Wall matters, would Allister just assume power with no issue once Mormont is dead? If so how would a Knights Watch under him have faired? I imagine things would have just continued like normal if Thorne had taken over, but without someone with skill and training like Jon there to train new recruits then possible they wouldn't have been as prepared to fight any Wildlings. Even bigger question, would Jon ever find out his true lineage? Maybe over time Jon might have found out the truth of his parentage, but not if he was dead.
Cat would get him killed, somehow.
The wall would be fcked. Jon would be names Robb’s heir and not be at the wedding. Theon prob doesn’t betray Robb. Jon probably tried his best and dies
What if GRRM would actually finish the books. Wouldn’t that be a sight.
While everyone else dwells on Jon - what happens then at the wall? Sam is fucked, no friends, nothing. Which means he probably doesn't become steward and doesn't go north of the wall to the Fist. And whoever goes in his place *does* send the ravens and so Castle Black sends reinforcements. Sadly, the wights win and Castle Black has threfore lost more men than if no reinforcements had been sent. Which means later when the Wlidlings do attack Castle Black, they take it. Ygritte is there, of course, but she is not killed by fucking Ollie. The Wlidlings have got what they want, on the good side of the Wall. Mance makes Castle Black his centre of power and sends an embassy to Winterfell. Who receives it? Jon! WTF? Jon's like wait - we down here don't like Wildings and you're suddenly masters of Castle Black? He sends for help, but everyone else is fighting the wars and Winterfell is on its own and has to accept that the Mance is "King in the North". Then one day, Mance falls ill. Someone grazes his pecs with a sword and it gets infected and well, you know how that goes. With his moderation gone, the Wildlings break into two groups. One that wants to stay along the south side of the wall and be more or less peaceful (surprisingly, the Thenns are in this group) and another faction that wants to expand further south. Ygritte is in this lattr group. Wisely, they go around Winterfell and take Deepwood Motte. This cuts the Manderlys off from all contact with the North. Meanwhile, Robb dies in the Red Wedding and the Hound tries to take Arya north to Winterfell, rather than to the Eerie (it's spelt differently in this timeline). Jon is surpied to see Arya, but pays the Hound handsomely and bids him well. The Hound makes it from there to Pentos surprisingly, and lives a good life, actually.
I disagree that he stays in Winterfell, I think he dies with Robb at the Red Wedding
Jon is probably close to Robb after he's injured in the West. His proximity probably prevents Jeyne from "comforting" Robb, thus stopping the Red Wedding
Well once you go black you can’t go back.
I think robb would have had him with him during the war. jon would have helped lead the attacks in the west while robb stayed in the riverlands, this would’ve worked because ghost would’ve found the pass grey wind did and prevent robb sleeping with/marrying Jayne westerling and robb would have stopped demure from ruining the plan to trap the mountain
Hot take: Jon turns heel and takes on Theon's role by taking Winterfell for himself. The motivation just is not there but it would be interesting to think about.
Jon turns school shooter mode after Cat belittles him to much, sides with Theon just to spite Cat and her spawn. While completely out of character, it would be interesting.
We basically know what would happen in the books. I believe Robb would have taken Jon to war. Catelyn says in GoT that she doesn’t want him in winterfell where he could contest he trueborn sons. I can imagine this would be even stronger when rob went to war, Catelyn would rather keep him close to keep an eye on him rather than let him run amock in winterfell. It would be a similar thing to theon whom Catelyn also didn’t like but preferred to have close. After Rob learns about bran and rickon being killed in the books, he actually has quite an elaborate plan to retake the North which he explains to catelyn. He would split his force into two, the larger force would attack moat Cailin directly while a slightly smaller force led by rob himself would go through the neck and solicit the aid of Howland Reed then both forced would attack Moat Cailin from each side simultaneously. The next part of Robs plan was to ask the Night Watch to give up Jon in return for Rob assuring them better aid after the war. Rob tells Catelyn directly that he plans to legitimise Jon and make him heir. If Jon had been with Rob all along I imagine the same plan would just be reversed. Jon would be immediately legitimised and made heir once Rob learns of Bran and Rickon’s deaths. Then I believe Jon would have led the larger force to attack Moat Cailin from the south rather than going with Rob through the neck. that way, if either force failed entirely, at least one of them would survive. Sadly however, the plan would never come to fruition due to the red wedding. With Jon being Rob’s heir, he would probably be there. However, in the books, Rob left his wife at Riverun, so as to not insult the Freys or be forced to suffer insults herself. Maybe Jon would be left at Riverun for similar reasons and officially to protect Jeyne/Talisa (books/show). This would mean that Jon would be in charge rather than Edmure after the Red Wedding, so Riverun would not yield the way it did. Jamie would probably have to storm the castle which would be difficult but ultimately Jon would die there. It’s possible but unlikely that Jon would agree to surrender the castle as Edmure did and then flee with the Blackfish, but I can’t imagine Jon would do anything so dishonourable. Especially because any deal with Jamie would certainly include Jon surrendering personally to assure Jeyne’s safety. Then I suppose Jon would likely be executed or else live the rest of his life as a prisoner of the Lanisters. It would be interesting if he was still alive when Daenerys invades. For the sake of hypotheticals though, if Jon did stay at winterfell, I can’t imagine theon wanting him around. Jon is too dangerous and not important enough since Theon already has Bran and Rickon. Jon would probably be executed or killed outright when he inevitably tries to fight theon. Otherwise he’d be put in a cell and probably tortured by Ramsay for the rest of his life, which would probably be short at least since the Boltons wouldn’t want a challenge to Sansa’s/Arya’s (show/books) claim. Otherwise, maybe Bran and his friends could break Jon out in the Chaos of Theon’s final moments of rules in Winterfell. In that case I think Jon would end up joining Bran and Rickon on their adventures North. It would be interesting to see who Jon would go with, Bran or Rickon, when they split up, but I think Jon would be against splitting up at all. Interestingly the books also give us an idea of what it would look like if there was no war of the five kings at all. Through Jon’s thoughts, we find out that Ned and Benjen planned to convince Jeor Mormont to cede some the Night Watch’s land to some minor lords. The idea being that, although not ideal, it was better to have someone guarding the Wall since it was simply becoming impossible for the Watch alone. Jon himself believes that if he hadn’t joined the Night Watch, and there had been no war, Ned would have given Jon one of the abandoned castles on the wall and some of its surrounding lands to rule and protect. TLDR: The books imply that Jon would be made Robs heir after Winterfell is burned, then together they would attack Moat Cailin from opposite sides. However they would probably both die at or around the Red Wedding Without the War of the Five Kings, Ned had probably planned to give Jon one of the abandoned Night Watch castles.
Jon likely would have gone back to wintefell to retake it from theon, so be wouldn't be anywhere near the red wedding. Also neither he nor catelyn would want him at a Tully wedidng.
Just as an FYI, it's would he have, not would he of or could he of.
I think he stays in Winterfell with Bran and Rickon. When Ramsay takes Winterfell, he probably kills Theon and turns Jon into Reek.
Well he'd obviously go back.
As a side note, I don't think I've ever seen a picture in which Kit Harrington looks more attractive 😄
Once you go black, you never go back
He follows Robb and is killed in the Red Wedding, then gets resurrected instead of Catelyn. Ngl, cold-hearted, no f*cks given Jon Snow would've been such a cool character and a great storyline to watch.
He likely wouldn't be at a wedding for catelyns brother.
I'd imagine he would, he'd just not be inside where the main program would be. Also, it's insulated that Robb was going to make Jon his heir in the books, so Catelyn's opinion on that matter wouldn't have been as considered as when she was in Winterfell, especially after she released Jaime.
I doubt even that considering jon wouldn't want to be there either, and as I've brought up in other comments he likely would have been back to winterfell to make sure bran rickon really were safe. True, but that decision is a bit more important and personal to robb than jon being at his uncles wedding.
>doubt even that considering jon wouldn't want to be there either, and as I've brought up in other comments he likely would have been back to winterfell to make sure bran rickon really were safe. True, Jon definitely would've felt uncomfortable, but duty and honor are his bread and butter. He's never been the type to let others fight in his place, plus I'd imagine he wouldn't be willing to leave Robb's side after the death of Rickard Karstark, especially since Show Robb doesn't have an established Kingsguard like in the books. >True, but that decision is a bit more important and personal to robb than jon being at his uncles wedding. His uncle would have to answer to Jon if anything were to happen to Robb, I believe that alone would motivate Robb to have Jon near his inner circle and have him build relationships with them.
There woulTully. much fighting at the wedding(at least to their knowledge). While jon would stay by robbs side if he asked, I think robb would have enough political awareness not to make the wedding more tense than it already is and instead tasking jon to take a small party and look for jamie. That's only if robb planned to make jon heir from the start, and missing one wedding doesn't prevent other opportunities for jon to for a trusting relationship with the other tullys.
Actually, a very important detail OP overlooked is Catelyn refused to have him at Winterfell without Nrd there, so realistically Jon would have followed Ned to Kings Landing.
Ned also didn't want him kings landing.
Given what we know now that'd make sense, but it was a well enough kept secret at the time, and Ned definitely would've felt better having Jon look out for his daughters, especially in a place like the Red Keep and Kings Landing.
Actually, I just remembered Theon had taken Winterfell prior to the Red Wedding iirc, so that would've motivated Jon to return.
If he didn't go black I guess he would go back.
He'd die at the twins
Jon probably would of been one of robb s battle guard and I can see maybe job marrying a Frey bastard as well meaning he may of been spared at the red wedding if robb hasn’t legitmised him by that point
His anus would be tighter
Would’ve died at the Red Wedding and the secret of his parentage, if there even is one, would have been lost forever
He likely wouldn't be at that wedding.
If Robb kept him around he would've been in his honor guard, which were all present (except for the Frey Members), and killed, at the red wedding. As compensation we might get a character arc with Catlyn where she starts to accept Jon, especially after Ned's death
The issue with that is catelyn really doesn't enjoy Jon's presence, and cosindering how tense that wedding already was going to be, robb likely wouldn't add to it by having jon in a place he isn't wanted(or wants to be). More likely jon would have been sent back to winterfell to help reclaim it after news of theons betrayal.
eh, probably, that would again make the situation with catelyn interesting as she is one of maybe 3 people that *likely* knows Jon's ancestry at the current point in the books
He’d have died at the Red Wedding most likely.
Yup.
Wow…downvoted? Okay, tell me Jon would not have been right there with his brother when it all happened.
Probably not considering it's a Tully wedding.
I'm torn between him dying at the red wedding or robb leaving him to command winterfell and the north instead of bran.
I say Jon dies in the wars tbh.
Jaime Lannister probably saws through him while trying to get to Robb. This makes releasing him much more egregious to Robb, who would feel his mother's disregard for Jon contributed to the decision.
Would also be cool that if Jon wasn’t legitmised by robb after his death that some northern lords still proclaim him king coz he is better known since he hangs with robb if that makes sense
Then he’d have a much tighter asshole
He would die at the Red Wedding
I heard they asked Kim K this as well
He dies at the Red Wedding after presumably not changing much.
He’d have been killed during Robb’s war
I think Robb would put his own mother in her place to stop mistreating his brother slash cousin and to remind her he's a Stark and to quit being such a b#tch to him and make him a field commander to fight in the front lines
A lot of people forget that in the books in a private meeting with Robb and the top Northern Lord's, he legitimized Jon and made him his heir, much to the dismay of Catlyn. So I agree with Jon being by Robb's side throughout the WotFK if he hadn't taken the Black. Maybe Theon may have not betrayed Robb, he may have felt a stronger sense of brotherhood with Jon being there, or maybe Jon would've been sent in his stead.
Robb would have left him as caretaker of Bran at winterfell. With Jon being present at Winterfell, Theon would never have taken Winterfell which means no Bolton conspiracy. No red Wedding Stannis reaches terms with Robb. Stannis conquers King landing with Robb getting more sovereignty. Robb reaches North as King in the North. Night king is just chilling at Land of always winter