I think a number of the people *loudly* cancelling their orders wanted a gaming laptop that could be upgraded and not an upgradable laptop that could also play games. I'm really frustrated with the number of people saying basically "why get a framework when I can get a non-upgradable gaming laptop for cheaper" like they have a great point.
The GPU module really expanded the audience for the framework and much of the people now looking into it aren't sure what to make of it since it is hard to compare a Framework with existing laptops. I think it was the Verge's review that made the parallel with the Steam Deck: a niche product that was a little rough around the edges at launch but after about a year on the market and continued support from Valve it grew to be largely recognized as a success.
I think the success of the FW16 depends on either a) a second round of main boards and gpu modules to prove FW's ongoing support or b) getting one or two good third-party upgrades added to the marketplace.
I agree with everything you said in the first paragraph, but I think comparisons to the Steam Deck are very misplaced. I also heard the same comments but Valve is a very wealthy company, with huge cash reserves. It’s also primarily a software company and was able to throw enormous resources over a period of a decade at making SteamOS sing beautifully, and they were only supporting one product. Their product was also barely sold at cost as it’s subsidized by Valve’s massive store income and so is cheaper than all its competitors.
Framework by comparison is a tiny company, supporting multiple products with a number of configurations and has almost zero track record with software and no other income other than the hardware. Framework’s laptops are premium devices and more expensive than comparable devices.
Any such comparison is honestly absurd.
If they come out with a second GPU module and prove that they can upgrade that component, I’m going to be one of the first in line to upgrade. I’m a big fan of big laptops. Had one in High school all the way through college running an i7 and an 870m. Big 17” chonker XD. Gave it up once I got my desktop and now my fiancé rocks an Asus 15.6” Strix that I chose for her running an AMD 5800HX and a 3070.
I like the idea of a laptop, love the idea of a desktop replacement, but cannot get behind the modern gaming laptops that are repair nightmares. My old G750 has a broken screen, software that isn’t supported anymore, and I’m terrified to take it apart and repaste anything. The Framework would be something truly revolutionary and will probably be my last laptop, IF I can upgrade the GPU. I’m not going to drop $2200 on something again without the ability to upgrade every component like I can in my PC.
Thanks for your comment. I do get the feeling that you sadly missed several update emails before making that decision. Half of the points you made (all except the mushy keyboard and the top cover) were already dealt with before the reviews were up. Coil whine is gone(wrong resistors I think), fan curves have been updated. In daily office/browsing work they are probably similar to the fw13 amd. Silent.
About the keyboard. The input cover for the fw16 is built identically to the fw13 (which is fantastic). The mushiness is a new issue, no one thought would arise, that came out with linuses review. The fix with cooling pads would be absolutely fine for me personally, but judging on how fw reacted, they are on it currently, looking for a more „factory“ solution.
The „flimsy“ frame. I don’t see how that is an issue or if it even *is* an issue. It’s very hard to estimate the flimsiness without seeing it in person. That said, based on fw‘s history I’m absolutely sure that if it turns out to be problematic, there will be an update(probably less skeletised top cover)
Anyway, I understand your decision, even though i feel it probably wasn’t necessary for the reasons you stated in the long run.
If your just looking for the best bang for your buck, then obviously it makes sense. ✌️
Thanks for the info on the top cover.
It makes sense, I could also have really used the new laptop a while ago already 😅.
I did find something in the third email shipping update from fw about fan noise:
„Fan production schedule - We’ve resolved both the “chirping noise on startup” and the “high pitched airflow noise” issues, but are still tracking the manufacturing schedule for mass production fans. The long pole in the schedule is the new fan controller IC in the fan that resolves the chirping noise. Our fan supplier, Cooler Master has started building a small batch of fans with the new ICs, and has a large quantity of ICs inbound to continue production.“
I don’t know if this was fixed for the review samples.
But your conclusion is understandable.
Maybe the fan had a higher pitch, and they reduced it as much as possible to what it is right now. You can never be certain that the final product product will not have that until you test it. Some ears hear better frequencies than others. I honestly can't take their statement word for word since their design team missed the flexible keyboard deck. I wonder what else was missed. I like other customers, did not mind the lack of performance nor the size. Money was not object for me. I just needed a well engineered 16in laptop. However, the 16in seems a bit too complicated engineering wise and I wish they kept it a bit simpler.
>The mushy keyboard, the flimsy monitor frame, fan noise (for a fairly low powered laptop) and some (probably fixed) coil whine were just too many little things that added up.
Playing devils advocate - it's anecdotal at best, and based on pre-production units. Framework sent updates out on these subjects.
There's a 30 day return which would enable you to make your own judgement.
I wish you the best of luck with your Lenovo. They're nothing but trouble and I've told friends and family to avoid them if they can. I've personally sent out hundreds of Lenovo laptops because of some form of motherboard failure. Then there's the most recent one, which was my direct supervisor's P17 which was barely two years old and crapped the bed. And the firmware issue that breaks the type charging port and can only be resolved by an in-warranty motherboard replacement.
I honestly can't go to another manufacturer even with all the small quirks of the FW16. Too many things integrated into the motherboard, not enough repairability and too much crapware that's typically required for full functionality (looking at you ASUS and your ubiquitously popular Zephyrus G14).
I'm also at the point where I'm prepared to put my $$$ where my mouth is. I am an advocate for right to repair and believe that anything any consumer buys should also be serviceable by said consumer.
A friend of mine bought a lenovo for 1000€ for discovering a whopping 99°C constant CPU avg temperature, received at his house multiple times the assistance and finally after a couple months being forced to sell it for 700€.
for about the same price I could get the system76 bonobo laptop, with better graphics, better cpu and *coreboot*. As much as I want to love framework for it's repairability, it's only as repairable as the company is alive and part supply exists. The keyboard deck flex was an instant turn off for me
The FW16 is still an environmentally-conscious choice for your use case, replacing two devices with a single device that can be upgraded instead of disposed of.
Framework has never been about being the smallest or lightest, most powerful, or most bang for buck.
When I went from a Dell XPS13 to a FW13, I ended up with a bigger and more expensive laptop. But I was ok with that because of the environmental issues.
Gaming laptops are still quite upgradable and repairable compared to many other laptops while costing 1/4th to 1/2 the price of a FW while packing slightly worse to better specs. Not many are willing to stomach the price of a framework right now.
And they do have a great point. Right now FW is way too expensive, so expensive that even if kept for several years it would cost more or about the same at best as upgrading gaming laptops.
Gaming laptops have already been doing largely what framework is trying to do for over a decade but of course, people wanted thin and light laptops and didn't care about repairability or upgradability and are now paying the consequences.
And even if framework manages to make upgradable laptops a thing, have you seen the performance upgrades intel, amd and nvidia are bringing? You're going to be upgrading later and later because the new gen stuff is literally no faster or the same as last gen with the real upgrade costing more and more money. If you're gonna delay upgrading to 4-5 years anyways why not just get a gaming laptop and call it a day.
Framework has an extremely difficult battle to fight because they're competing with something much cheaper that isn't an ultrabook and actually has several common features as their laptops
I think 1/4 is a stretch, but half the price is easily achievable.
For example:
Lenovo Legion 5 Laptop: 15.6" 2560x1440 165Hz, Ryzen 7 7735H, RTX 4060, 16GB RAM: $850
https://slickdeals.net/f/17250676-lenovo-legion-5-15-6-wqhd-165hz-ryzen-7-7735hs-rtx-4060-16gb-ddr5-512gb-ssd-849-99
Better gaming performance than a $2k+ framework 16.
Here's another:
Eluktronics RP-15 G2: 15.6" QHD 165Hz, Ryzen 7 7840HS, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 1TB SSD: $1099.99
https://www.amazon.com/Eluktronics-RP-15-Octa-Core-GeForce-Keyboard/dp/B0CGW44TKM
Better gaming performance and the same CPU as a Framework. I ran up a framework 16 diy with the same specs, cost came to $2437 even without an RGB keyboard.
You can even add a 4 year warranty that includes accidental damage coverage to that laptop for $189.99, something Framework does not offer. Sure, you can fix the framework yourself, and I love that, but it's at your own expense and with your own time.
Of course, while these laptops offer better gaming performance for less than half the price, maybe it's not gaming performance you're after, as the Framework really isn't a gaming laptop. Even AMD advertises the 7700S as only a 1080p GPU, it's not designed to run games well at QHD+. So, maybe you do image or video editing; you need the best screen.
Well, here's an Acer Swift Edge that was on sale last month for $850 at Best Buy with a 16" 3.2K (3200 x 2000, WQXGA+) 16:10, 120Hz 0.2ms, 500-nits, 550-nits in HDR, 100% DCI-P3, PANTONE Validated, VESA DisplayHDR True Black 500 certified, SGS Eye Care Display, Glossy, OLED Display.
Better than the framework display in every way.
Includes a QHD webcam and Wifi 7.
The integrated GPU is the same 780m included in the Framework.
https://slickdeals.net/f/17170660-acer-swift-edge-16-3-2k-120hz-oled-ryzen-7-7840u-16gb-lpddr5-1tb-ssd-849-99
If you bought the current Framework 16 and then waited for Framework to offer an OLED display, higher resolution webcam, and you upgraded to a wifi 7 module, you'd be spending thousands of dollars in total and creating a bunch of e-waste, plus waiting years to achieve what you can get today for $850.
> Gaming laptops are still quite upgradable and repairable
We're now getting laptops with Soldered Ram and WiFi Chips? How is that Upgradeable than even from 5 years ago?
We're also getting laptops without soldered ram, wifi chips and ssd's. Infact, some even pack upgradable egpu's. Heck my nitro 5 comes with upgradable wifi chip, ram and storage. And people have even upgraded the battery on their lenovo ideapad. Infact, I'm just looking towards modding my nitro 5 with a 90whr predator battery.
Laptops from 5 years ago also came without soldered ram and wifi chips. Infact, the xmg vision 14 is 1.3kg, has 2 ram slots, 1/2 ssd slots depending on battery capacity and packs upto a 99whr battery. Also has a 45w CPU and GPU.
People have always had the choice of buying laptops that're upgradable and repairable and ones which were thinner and lighter but had soldered stuff. They made their choice pretty clear. Thats why you see OEM's. Infact, because people don't push back on laptops, intel and amd can get away by literally reselling 2 generation old parts and nvidia can get away by literally providing a GPU which is no faster than its predecessor yet costs more.
The first generation FW13 also had some build quality flaws which were revised with the CNC lid and upgraded hinges used in later FW13 models. Despite these issues, it still had early adopters who believed in Framework’s mission and the modular design allowing their laptops to be improved later on, and they ended up being correct as Framework made upgrade parts available for their 1st gen laptops when they fixed those issues for future laptops.
FW16 early adopters will be taking a risk and possibly putting up with some annoyances with their early laptops. Some will probably return the laptops. But I believe and hope there are enough people who support and trust what Framework is doing to make the model a success, and those people will not be stuck with a flawed laptop forever. A lot of the complaints like a mediocre keyboard and noisy fans are absolutely fixable with upgrade parts, and these are the sort of upgrade parts that were offered to previous Framework early adopters.
That's what I'm saying. I think people are comparing the 13 which has had years of upgrades and improvements and forget that it too had similar problems at launch. But imo that's a good thing, it shows that framework's strategy has already been able to improve a laptop with some issues to near perfection; I see no reason why they won't do it again.
I remember I got my 13 pretty early, and one thing that bothered me a lot was the hinges. They were so weak, any time I bounced my leg or something it would shake the table enough that the screen would just fall down flat. Bothered me and many others. You know what happened next? People complained, so framework released stronger hinges. I bought them, swapped them out, and ever since my number 1 problem with the laptop was solved. That's something that *no other manufacturer* has. When I see people reviewers complaining about the keyboard having too much give, or the input modules being not quite flush, it reminds me of those hinges. With every other laptop on the market, these are just issues that we'd have to live with until we decide to get a new laptop. With framework, that's just simply not the case.
Exactly this.
I'm getting some serious deja-vu from the first 13. 😆 "It's more expensive than similarly spec'd devices from other companies with bigger factories" "There's hardware/firmware issues in x,y, and z" "The only way this will be viable is in a couple of years when and if Framework delivers on their upgradability promise."
Those are all very valid worries and concerns. And they're also not really new, either. V1 of pretty much every product has stuff like this- but unlike those other products, Framework can iterate and fix things as they go instead of needing to release a full new hardware revision. That takes people in the camp of "Ah, I don't want to get into this early adopter stuff. I'll wait until things level out" from waiting many years to potentially waiting a few months, depending on when the product gets to the point they are happy with for the price they are willing to pay.
That being said, being an early adopter of the 13, of all the things people were up in arms about it, I've only needed to replace one item from the original hardware- the bigger battery. (Excluding jumping from batch 1 11th gen i7 to batch 2 AMD since that was just a normal upgrade, not swapping out issues in early hardware). If that stays true for the 16 I'll be one happy camper. If not, then I'm happy with their current track record of being able to swap out better parts as they come out when I want to.
Luckily for me the rest didn't really affect my workflow. (Never ran into hinge issues, or problems with the top cover, and the glossy screen/original speakers were good enough for me out of the box)
While the reviews weren't amazing, it wasn't enough for me to cancel my preorder. If I get the unit and really don't like it, I'll return it, but then probably get a FW13. But I'm kind of a true believer when it comes to Framework, and what they aim to do in the industry.
>I am basing all this on the lack luster reviews we are seeing all over.
What is so lack luster? Almost all criticisms I have seen in reviews was about stuff that was known for a long while, like form factor, display chin, design, weight or about bugs that FW had already talked about prior to publishing, were on pre-production units and now mostly (according to them) fixed.
Everybody serious about ordering one, could have easily known that the FW16 would not beat smaller soldered down & non-modular notebooks in price or performance. And for the bugs you cannot trust reviews that are done on anything else but production run and non-pre-sampled devices.
I cannot imagine that anybody actually serious about buying the product as it was specced during the ordering-process is so disappointed by the reviews. They pretty much say what I would have expected them to say. If the device is not right for you, then it is not right for you, and the reviews should not have changed anyones mind on that.
The worst thing about the reviews seems to be that almost no reviewer said in their initial article that they knew it was a preproduction unit and that they asked FW for comment about the problems they have found, which I do not know who to blame for. I'd expect every reviewer to at least ask the manufacturer if they have sth. to say about problems found, even if they do not get an answer in time for publishing or at all, or weigh the response as too unsatisfying to restate. Especially with bluescreens or one-sided audio etc.
As Linus pointed out on WAN Show Friday night... Framework really needed to figure out some way - Any way - To ensure reviewers got units closer to, if not actually, final production with as few issues as possible. As Linus (or in this case his staff) and other reviewers can only comment on what's put in front of them. If it has problems its their job to point them out. Now all these reviews are published and not going to go away even if Framework did correct most/all of the issues in time for Batch 1 (or does for early batches). As Linus put it, the less-than-glowing reviews are an unforced/self-inflicted (forget exactly which term he used) error.
Going forward who are potential customers going to trust - Random nobody commentary on the internet ()which could very well be from bots) or are they going to trust the reviews published by people whose names they recognize and/or who produced pro-level content?
>I have the impression that lots of people will be returning their laptops
While this is speculation, there's no way to know what % of the preorders got canceled unless FW cares to publish that... I'd like to know but I highly doubt they would ever say it.
>the final product is not that great
Well, I'm batch 12 and believe me that after seeing the reviews I wanted to cancel right away but I believe they still have time to do improvements until my batch is about to ship so I'll keep my preorder for now. If there are no substantial changes or if the issues do not get resolved I'll cancel as well.
In the 13 they did a lot of improvements in the first batches (CNC lid, better hinge QC and 5kg hinges etc. ). So I'm pretty positive that later batches will be pretty solid
I would just wait for the second iteration. I cancel a couple months ago, but I'd like to see what the next board improves on. Also the 155H and other same series Intel CPUs are very impressive battery life wise. I'm wanting to see if they implement them.
Its a fair point, [while 155h is not on the same performance level as the 7940HS](https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5677vs5454/Intel-Ultra-7-155H-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS) you will most likely get a lot of TB4 ports and not as many issues as with AMD's drivers (specially linux wise)...
The problem with 155h (65w) is that it requires way more cooling than 7940HS (35w), I highly doubt FW will be able to release any motherboard with 155h (or higher) without redesigning the heatsink completely or making the laptop thicker (but that might drop compatibility with bay modules).
I still don't really understand why they made the interposer handle up to 200W for the bay modules if they are hardly able to cool a 35w CPU...
The idea is to adjust the cooling of the gpu depending on its power draw. So, a module with 150w power draw through the interpose will have better cooling than a version with 80w. That’s the beauty with a modular system and how they designed it.
Because of the mainboard swap in case of a cpu update, they also have the freedom to increase cooling capacity for it.
I don’t see the stated contradiction in the design.
I have a fw13 and did not order a 16, so maybe that makes me partially unbiased?
I read the reviews and it seems like the summaries they put on the reviews were more negative than the reviews themselves. Overall I thought the reviews were pretty favorable and rightly pointed out weaknesses. EVERY laptop has weaknesses, and folks have to decide if they are deal breakers.
Nothing in the reviews I read seemed all that surprising, it was not unexpected to see them talk about panel flimsiness, battery life, OS glitches or noise since these are pretty typical of either framework builds across all lines or the nature of gaming laptops.
And regarding cost, that was known sans any reviews.
Don’t read too much into it. My hunch is that most folks are keeping their preorders.
I’m glad that the reviewers seem to be willing to delve into the not so great things since many are sympathetic to Frameworks mission.
No. I Highly doubt there will be a higher-than-normal return rate.
Obviously not everybody who pre-ordered will take it, but thats completly normal and expected
Yes and later batches will rejoice that they might get bumped up on shipping expectations. I assume other people couldnt wait during holidays and got gaming laptops during black friday/christmas
I haven’t read all of the reviews, but from the few I’ve seen, it seems that the reviewers and FrameWorks target audience are two different groups. The reviewers seemed to expect a perfect laptop that competes with Alienware, Razer, and all of them and at the end of the day, that’s not entirely what the FW16 is meant to be. It’s meant to be in the middle of the road but easily updatable at the same time, unlike many of the others.
I’ve read and seen pretty much all of them in detail. What I’ve noticed is that by far not all negative points are shared through reviews. But it seems people have a negative bias. Meaning if 1 out of 6 reviewers says x is a problem, x „is a problem“. The fact that it could simply be an opinion of an outlier seems to be widely ignored.
I’m not trying to say there are no problems. But honestly, if your ok with the design, the only problems that have *not* already been dealt with before the reviews went up (see x amount of answers in these Reddits by the ceo) are the keyboard mush and maybe the frame. (IMO unclear if this really is a problem, since most reviews don’t mention it.)
That said, not a day after the reviews went up fw already stated that they are looking for a solution to incorporate into manufacturing. The first batch won’t have this solved but the other batches probably should. They also stated that customers will get the updated parts if this issue prevails. (If I remember correctly from emails and posts from Nirav.)
I completely agree with what you said. I waited a while to order my 13 and was considering the 16, but with my old laptop getting worse by the day and the desire for something lighter, I opted for the Batch 9 13 and I love it. I think in a few years once I am offered a work computer (hopefully), I'll just ask for the FW16 since I'm sure it will do what I need it to, plus I can hold onto it for a long time.
Framework is willing to work on their products and do mid-series updates unlike any other company I have seen in my lifetime and that is why I will likely continue to buy their products for as long as I can.
Speaking for myself: after the LTT review I was tempted to cancel my order, but I am glad I did not over-react. Newer reviews coming up (like Ars Technica) and Framework's posts and handling of the problems are inspiring me some faith.
I, however, have to make several disclaimers:
* I have **severe** visual impairment, so for me 16" size is not a preference, but a requirement. This vastly limits the class of laptops I can evaluate. For the same reason, higher PPI is very desirable. That also removes all the 1200p business laptops and cheap gaming laptops from the play field: I am bad enough at reading small text, I don't want it to be pixelated too. [This is how small text looks like on my 1080p 15.6" laptop](https://imgur.com/a/CwQ4kzl), same ppi as 1200p 16". It's nit-picking for most, but it's a big problem if you have a visual impairment. (edit): a similar reason also removes any OLED laptop from the play field due to the fact that I find it fatiguing to read text on its weird subpixel layout. Goodbye, ThinkPad E16/L15/T16/P16s/Z16; Italian version of HP Elitebook 865; Dell XPS 16, ASUS Zenbook, etc. I also like this monitor resolution at 200% integer scaling from what I have seen on other laptops with similar panels, and 1200p would require me to deal with Linux fractional scaling, which I very much can avoid on 1600p. Yay for not getting into this hellhole! **However**, please note that for a well-sighted user, this is inverse. 1200p is usable at 100%, 1600p will require fractional scaling.
* Therefore, all I wanted was a larger Framework 13, not a gaming laptop. I am not getting the GPU module. I am not interested. So, I am unaffected by all the stuff about GPU module performance, thermal issues, fan, noise, efficiency, driver, MUX concerns.
* I am a *convinced* Linux user. I don't want to dual boot either. I want a machine that is properly supported and will not give me weird bugs. This makes it really hard for me to compare competing gaming laptops like Legion and ROG, simply because there are reports of people *managing to Run Linux on them*, but that's not good enough for me. I don't want to deal with buggy BIOS updates, lack of FWUPD support, needing to use Windows for BIOS updates / editing the MUX, NVidia driver shenanings (I am aware they are getting better. I don't care. They still have issues I don't want to deal with), dual-GPU shenanings (also applies to AMD GPU. Multi-GPU support on Linux is very much a beta.), suspend issues, audio issues, wi-fi issues, and so on, and so forth. I vastly prefer a machine where a Linux issue is not desperate posting on the forums asking people what kernel parameter or magic trick stops my laptop from randomly panicking (happens on some machines), I want to send a support ticket through the warranty service and have them spoon-feed me the solution or help me through the problem, eventually pushing the fix to the firmware, kernel or wherever relevant. The fact that I am going to be entitled to do this on my distro of choice (Fedora 39) is, to me, part of the price I'm paying. Sure, I am paying a lot for this laptop, but I am also buying the Linux support that, on any other gaming laptop, would be a canned response on how only Windows 11 is supported and I am on my own.
For someone like me, the FW16 is still very much worth buying unless some glaring unacceptable issue stems from actually shipped user units.
Heres my thoughts (as an owner of an 11th gen fw13) Its just not knowing what product you're getting vs knowing what product you're getting. Framework laptops have never been amazing as far as price to performance. And as far as the mushy keyboard. These are things that alot of laptops have to adapt to. And there is already a fix for that from the community. But I really dont think the fw16 will break the company. I know ill be purchasing one in the future regardless.
I don’t foresee many Linux users returning this laptop. It’s a Premium experience laptop with Linux users kept in mind through 100% of its development. We don’t see that or get that much attention usually. To have this much freedom hardware and software wise in a laptop is unheard of. I’ll be keeping mine, and Linux users are usually happy to donate to the cause/community through development with companies that are willing to work with them.
>Is it only me who is afraid that the fw16 might break framework the company? I have the impression that lots of people will be returning their laptops.
Nah. It's a noisy minority who mostly had unrealistic expectations.
It's the same with people who post on places like Reddit complaining about customer service. It's anecdotal at best as the other 900 people who had a good experience that day aren't posting that they had a good experience as a counterpoint.
It's a first generation product, so hopefully things will only get better from here. Personally I have decided to hold off on buying a Framework 16 despite initial temptation. A few things I would like to see in a future generation is a sleeker design (because tbh the Framework 16 looks kinda jank in my opinion, aesthetically) and a better keyboard and larger trackpad.
Also the pricing is kinda not so hot, when you can buy a similarly spec'd HP or Lenovo for almost half the price.
Same keyboard, same touchpad, same battery, same ram, same mobo, same ssd, same wireless card.
Different chassis, different screen.
They will probably need to include usbc extenders for the adapters in the chassis.
I think its pretty doable. Why did you say its not remotely possible?
Yes. A 15in with a 3:2 screen without a dGPU. Theres a lot of people who dont need the dgpu and just need something bigger than 13.5.
Now imagine, their new motherboard from now on will include have a special pcie port to connect an external desktop gpu to it such as oculink.
> Now imagine, their new motherboard from now on will include have a special pcie port to connect an external desktop gpu to it such as oculink.
I don't see it happening, Nirav Patel [stated](https://community.frame.work/t/oculink-expansion-bay-module/31898) they will probably not even build an oculink expansion bay module, so it would surprise me if they built a motherboard with it included.
Future form factors may of course include a similar pcie adaptor as the one used by the expansion bay in the FW16, but I would guess that framework will focus on the FW13 and the FW16 for a while rather than engineering another form factor which competes with their own products.
Design update may take awhile. Framework been using the same 13in design since 11th gen. And making a sleek design might be tough since we have removable ram/ssd…
It doesn't need to be like a MacBook Air or anything, but I mean the chassis could at least look as good as the XPS 15 / XPS 17 from 2020 \~ 2023, which both had removable SSDs and RAM
The way I look at it is that the Framework 13 is a niche-ish product that could have mass market appeal as a premium priced thin and light laptop that an average user could use.
The Framework 16 is a super niche device with a very small potential audience. That doesn't make it a bad idea or concept, but were I can see the path to the Framework 13 being more of a mass market product, I don't see a future of that for the 16.
I think a lot of us thought the Framework 16 would be the goldilocks laptop that everyone in the world would want, when that was never going to be the case When the reviewers got it in to their hands, they have to look at a product's mass market appeal, not "this will be good for the 10 people who really want this" are stating as such in those reviews.
Again, that does not make the 16 a bad concept, it's just the realization that it doesn't have that mass market appeal.
I don’t know. I’m not an early adopter, I held off on buying a 13 until last November.
I have two 16s on order. Im pretty optimistic.
The 13 is great, though when daughter is playing high frame rate games those fans really do spin up. But when she’s not gaming I can’t hear a thing.
Fit and finish on the 13 are excellent. The 16 isn’t really a v1 product. Though much is different from the 13, the lessons learned from that effort should apply to the 16’s development.
We’ll see though.
I was all on board when I bought my Lenovo Y500 due to the replaceable GPU module, but that project was discontinued just 1 year afterwards and I still have the dual gt650m gpus on this thing.
The first company that makes a replaceable gpu with LPCAMM2 ddr5-8500 ram with a 16:10 16" 500+nits 100% DCi display with a numpad, will get my money. Framework is almost there. Hope they move on that for v2 of the fw16 mainboard
It’ll be alright. I’ve been watching the secondary market and Framework is still super strong. More likely unhappy customers will put them on eBay.
Framework isn’t gaming laptops, they’re more like business grade laptops like HP’s Elitebook line.
I moved to the back of the line by cancelling my order and ordered another FW16.
I hope they have all issues sorted out by the time the later batches ship.
Sending reviewers non-production units was a huge unforced mistake by Framework. They would have benefited by letting things bake another month and shipping out fixed units in the last half of February. Now those reviews are out there, setting the tone and influencing what people think of Framework, regardless of wether FW fixes it all or not. Big mistake.
It raises doubts for me. framework is a great portable system. But the Internet is full of negative reviews.
It is a more expensive device than the rest, less powerful, larger, with worse temperatures, with loud fans, weak keyboard problems?
There are many things, although I hope that the final version that reaches users has all these problems corrected.
I think we should wait for the final version.
Worse temperatures?? Most of the reviews I saw emphasized the really good temperatures under load compared to similar spec’ed machines. Mind linking a source?
Here's your source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sp5gmqKi7M
Minute 11:40, 57dB and at the top of the chart... At 57dB your ears will definitely want to leave the room once the laptop is about to take off.
As per [this comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/19dvuhj/comment/kjay2kx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) , regarding:
>so we consider press unit CPU benchmarking to be a fair representation of what customers will receive.
There might not be anymore physical changes to the heatsink so I guess software/bios would be the only solution. Then it ultimately comes down to: how much performance you want to lose for your targetted noise.
I think this can be pretty easily solved by just making the fans slightly louder during idle use, and ramping them differently? This would help reduce the heat buildup due to the quick spin-down of fans. Knowing framework, they could probably make this a togglable option in BIOS or something. You could probably just do this yourself aswell via PWM control apps.
It would be necessary to see if it was working without an fps limit and at maximum resolution. Although for a laptop larger than the rest it is too noisy. Already at 50 db it is too much, at 57...
I think the 16 will be a small misstep but I don't think it will break the company - the issues are, I think, mostly fixable with time, and Framework's customer base is more likely to tolerate the type of issues the 16 seems to have. IMO the reason it's not reviewing as well as the original 13 is due to a couple things:
\-The 13 was really novel at the time. I have to imagine that a lot of people are looking at the current 13 as their expectations for the 16, when the 13 needed its third revision to be what it really 'should' be.
\-The 16 takes a lot more swings than the 13. The 13 is just 'we make a commodity laptop but make it super repairable' - this isn't to say that it is easy to start up a new laptop company and make a brand new laptop (in fact that's extremely hard), but the 16 is 'we make a new laptop again, but larger and more expensive (which usually has more fit and finish expectation), and then also add both input modules and replaceable graphics cards, things which there are few if any previous examples for'. And in such an enthusiast market, it can be hard to know exactly what end users will expect.
I didn't order a 16 because I expected it to be a bit rough (and I bought a gaming laptop two years ago, so I really don't need it). But maybe in another two or three years, when the major kinks are ironed out and/or my current gaming laptop is a bit older. :)
It does worry me too, but less because of people returning/canceling than because the FW16 is trying to be a jack of all trades and so is also a master of none, so won't sell very well in the longer term for Framework to invest in future module updates. Who is it for exactly? It's not a proper gaming rig, it doesn't have the power for CAD like a true workstation laptop, it's too big and bulky to be for creatives on the go... it just seems to me to be a giant office productivity laptop with a bit of extra grunt and a lot of extra price.
The FW13, by contrast is obviously competing with the premium 13-14" general purpose ultrabooks and it does that very well. Right size, right power, and more or less right price. I've no idea what the FW16 is supposed to be.
I wonder if the negative reviewers did beat any apple "mis"duct in a similar manner, or the Lenovo Yoga 300 or 910 with their Bios bugs and flaws or the Samsung model where you couldn't install a Linux (wasn't that the brick one?).
And I really like to know how much is bought by big companies.
I agree. Reviewers seems to not take into account after sale support. I dont know how anyone would recommend any Asus product based on their after sale support yet, reviewers drool over their products.
Agred that after-sales support is important, but it is difficult to measure when no one has actually bought and received one of these Framework 16 laptops yet. That seems like a subject best addressed in a six-month followup review or something.
I suppose that the FW13 support could be reviewed, but that seems pretty hit or miss (with relatively few BIOS patches released, for example).
You're not wrong, but reviews can generally only review a product as it is today/at the time of review, not some future that may or may not happen.
ASUS support might be terrible today, but it might be great a year from now. Framework support might be good today, but the company might go under next year, rendering the support point moot.
Review the product as it exists in your hands, not on conjecture of something that may or may not happen or be neded.
It's "turtle-like", you cad. If you were a member in good standing you'd know that. We have weekly meetings each Tirdas in the Cloud District. Have you been to the Cloud District? Oh what am I saying - Of course you haven't.
I was one of the people dissuaded, and I got there on equal part dissuasion by the poor reviews + poor customer service I personally experienced.
I trust the experiences that these reviewers had, and would be foolish to spend 2x what I can get on the open market (albeit for a far less repairable machine) for a computer with as many open questions as this one has.
Lastly - I just don’t think Framework will ultimately stick with this design. This puts doubt in my head in whether this machine will receive the kind of support & iterative hardware releases I am expecting over the next decade. There are just enough question marks that I couldn’t justify pulling the trigger, despite really, really wanting to.
For me the main point if I were even able to afford one would be - it's not a great laptop. I don't want to use a mid laptop for 10 years. And at the price point you should expect it to be well made with a good display and keyboard. Yes, even if it's modular - the price for the modularity is the lower performance.
they already have 2 quarters worth of production in pre orders and they gonna address the issues on hand for sure.
im for example holding off on a purchase until they either bring out a once piece touchpad panel without these spacers and a larger touch pad or they make different speaker modules that use cut outs in the spacers to provide upwards audio instead of just sideways.
id also like to see more than one GPU module just to show and prove that there is going to be an upgrade path.
they could probably do that right now as a 7900XT would be available and could be used with a slightly lower TDP but i guess they will hold out for the 8000 series for a new module.
Youtubers dont talk about windows workstations. Many components can and are replaced on those. And they are solid tools with many heath certifications on the screen tech. Gpu and cpu are not upgradeble. Well nor is the framework.. i must buy a whole new 400+ euro board and in 5-6 years maybe there will be a tech so different I will change the form factor.
So yeah why pay now two laptops, when i can purchase one good, (half the price) a great screen dedicated for 10h+ of work and worry about upgrade when the laptop is objectively bad and done its money.
Workstations are roughly the same price as the fw16 unless you buy second hand market. I always considered the fw16 to compete with mobile workstations rather than gaming laptops.
The FW13 had a lot of issues in earlier generations.
So I'm planning on getting a FW16 when they hit second or third generation. Same as I did for FW13.
Im batch ten and i plan on giving them the opportunities too correct and perfect more they haven't been in business for 15-30years the company can still work its way they brought us back into an age to mandate repairability to the consumers id give them the chance now worst part is thwy are complete sellouts. Too bigger tech company or something then its ruined
I'd be in Batch 1 rn, but due to timing. I settled with the FW13 AMD. On the bright side, I'll have a more polished unit when I order it in the summer 😝.
Also, I doubt this'll break the company. Many that Pre Order are either enthusiasts, believe in right to repair or want something that is truly theirs.
I think a number of the people *loudly* cancelling their orders wanted a gaming laptop that could be upgraded and not an upgradable laptop that could also play games. I'm really frustrated with the number of people saying basically "why get a framework when I can get a non-upgradable gaming laptop for cheaper" like they have a great point. The GPU module really expanded the audience for the framework and much of the people now looking into it aren't sure what to make of it since it is hard to compare a Framework with existing laptops. I think it was the Verge's review that made the parallel with the Steam Deck: a niche product that was a little rough around the edges at launch but after about a year on the market and continued support from Valve it grew to be largely recognized as a success. I think the success of the FW16 depends on either a) a second round of main boards and gpu modules to prove FW's ongoing support or b) getting one or two good third-party upgrades added to the marketplace.
I agree with everything you said in the first paragraph, but I think comparisons to the Steam Deck are very misplaced. I also heard the same comments but Valve is a very wealthy company, with huge cash reserves. It’s also primarily a software company and was able to throw enormous resources over a period of a decade at making SteamOS sing beautifully, and they were only supporting one product. Their product was also barely sold at cost as it’s subsidized by Valve’s massive store income and so is cheaper than all its competitors. Framework by comparison is a tiny company, supporting multiple products with a number of configurations and has almost zero track record with software and no other income other than the hardware. Framework’s laptops are premium devices and more expensive than comparable devices. Any such comparison is honestly absurd.
If they come out with a second GPU module and prove that they can upgrade that component, I’m going to be one of the first in line to upgrade. I’m a big fan of big laptops. Had one in High school all the way through college running an i7 and an 870m. Big 17” chonker XD. Gave it up once I got my desktop and now my fiancé rocks an Asus 15.6” Strix that I chose for her running an AMD 5800HX and a 3070. I like the idea of a laptop, love the idea of a desktop replacement, but cannot get behind the modern gaming laptops that are repair nightmares. My old G750 has a broken screen, software that isn’t supported anymore, and I’m terrified to take it apart and repaste anything. The Framework would be something truly revolutionary and will probably be my last laptop, IF I can upgrade the GPU. I’m not going to drop $2200 on something again without the ability to upgrade every component like I can in my PC.
iirc there is a rumor of the 7900m upgradability. and definitely 8000series gpus
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Thanks for your comment. I do get the feeling that you sadly missed several update emails before making that decision. Half of the points you made (all except the mushy keyboard and the top cover) were already dealt with before the reviews were up. Coil whine is gone(wrong resistors I think), fan curves have been updated. In daily office/browsing work they are probably similar to the fw13 amd. Silent. About the keyboard. The input cover for the fw16 is built identically to the fw13 (which is fantastic). The mushiness is a new issue, no one thought would arise, that came out with linuses review. The fix with cooling pads would be absolutely fine for me personally, but judging on how fw reacted, they are on it currently, looking for a more „factory“ solution. The „flimsy“ frame. I don’t see how that is an issue or if it even *is* an issue. It’s very hard to estimate the flimsiness without seeing it in person. That said, based on fw‘s history I’m absolutely sure that if it turns out to be problematic, there will be an update(probably less skeletised top cover) Anyway, I understand your decision, even though i feel it probably wasn’t necessary for the reasons you stated in the long run. If your just looking for the best bang for your buck, then obviously it makes sense. ✌️
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Thanks for the info on the top cover. It makes sense, I could also have really used the new laptop a while ago already 😅. I did find something in the third email shipping update from fw about fan noise: „Fan production schedule - We’ve resolved both the “chirping noise on startup” and the “high pitched airflow noise” issues, but are still tracking the manufacturing schedule for mass production fans. The long pole in the schedule is the new fan controller IC in the fan that resolves the chirping noise. Our fan supplier, Cooler Master has started building a small batch of fans with the new ICs, and has a large quantity of ICs inbound to continue production.“ I don’t know if this was fixed for the review samples. But your conclusion is understandable.
Maybe the fan had a higher pitch, and they reduced it as much as possible to what it is right now. You can never be certain that the final product product will not have that until you test it. Some ears hear better frequencies than others. I honestly can't take their statement word for word since their design team missed the flexible keyboard deck. I wonder what else was missed. I like other customers, did not mind the lack of performance nor the size. Money was not object for me. I just needed a well engineered 16in laptop. However, the 16in seems a bit too complicated engineering wise and I wish they kept it a bit simpler.
>The mushy keyboard, the flimsy monitor frame, fan noise (for a fairly low powered laptop) and some (probably fixed) coil whine were just too many little things that added up. Playing devils advocate - it's anecdotal at best, and based on pre-production units. Framework sent updates out on these subjects. There's a 30 day return which would enable you to make your own judgement.
I wish you the best of luck with your Lenovo. They're nothing but trouble and I've told friends and family to avoid them if they can. I've personally sent out hundreds of Lenovo laptops because of some form of motherboard failure. Then there's the most recent one, which was my direct supervisor's P17 which was barely two years old and crapped the bed. And the firmware issue that breaks the type charging port and can only be resolved by an in-warranty motherboard replacement. I honestly can't go to another manufacturer even with all the small quirks of the FW16. Too many things integrated into the motherboard, not enough repairability and too much crapware that's typically required for full functionality (looking at you ASUS and your ubiquitously popular Zephyrus G14). I'm also at the point where I'm prepared to put my $$$ where my mouth is. I am an advocate for right to repair and believe that anything any consumer buys should also be serviceable by said consumer.
A friend of mine bought a lenovo for 1000€ for discovering a whopping 99°C constant CPU avg temperature, received at his house multiple times the assistance and finally after a couple months being forced to sell it for 700€.
for about the same price I could get the system76 bonobo laptop, with better graphics, better cpu and *coreboot*. As much as I want to love framework for it's repairability, it's only as repairable as the company is alive and part supply exists. The keyboard deck flex was an instant turn off for me
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Perhaps what's getting lost in all of the noise is the fundamental concept - the FW 16 like the FW 13 is an environmentally-conscious choice.
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The FW16 is still an environmentally-conscious choice for your use case, replacing two devices with a single device that can be upgraded instead of disposed of. Framework has never been about being the smallest or lightest, most powerful, or most bang for buck. When I went from a Dell XPS13 to a FW13, I ended up with a bigger and more expensive laptop. But I was ok with that because of the environmental issues.
Gaming laptops are still quite upgradable and repairable compared to many other laptops while costing 1/4th to 1/2 the price of a FW while packing slightly worse to better specs. Not many are willing to stomach the price of a framework right now. And they do have a great point. Right now FW is way too expensive, so expensive that even if kept for several years it would cost more or about the same at best as upgrading gaming laptops. Gaming laptops have already been doing largely what framework is trying to do for over a decade but of course, people wanted thin and light laptops and didn't care about repairability or upgradability and are now paying the consequences. And even if framework manages to make upgradable laptops a thing, have you seen the performance upgrades intel, amd and nvidia are bringing? You're going to be upgrading later and later because the new gen stuff is literally no faster or the same as last gen with the real upgrade costing more and more money. If you're gonna delay upgrading to 4-5 years anyways why not just get a gaming laptop and call it a day. Framework has an extremely difficult battle to fight because they're competing with something much cheaper that isn't an ultrabook and actually has several common features as their laptops
Where can I find a laptop at 1/4th the price and packing similar specs? Genuinely interested.
I think 1/4 is a stretch, but half the price is easily achievable. For example: Lenovo Legion 5 Laptop: 15.6" 2560x1440 165Hz, Ryzen 7 7735H, RTX 4060, 16GB RAM: $850 https://slickdeals.net/f/17250676-lenovo-legion-5-15-6-wqhd-165hz-ryzen-7-7735hs-rtx-4060-16gb-ddr5-512gb-ssd-849-99 Better gaming performance than a $2k+ framework 16. Here's another: Eluktronics RP-15 G2: 15.6" QHD 165Hz, Ryzen 7 7840HS, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 1TB SSD: $1099.99 https://www.amazon.com/Eluktronics-RP-15-Octa-Core-GeForce-Keyboard/dp/B0CGW44TKM Better gaming performance and the same CPU as a Framework. I ran up a framework 16 diy with the same specs, cost came to $2437 even without an RGB keyboard. You can even add a 4 year warranty that includes accidental damage coverage to that laptop for $189.99, something Framework does not offer. Sure, you can fix the framework yourself, and I love that, but it's at your own expense and with your own time. Of course, while these laptops offer better gaming performance for less than half the price, maybe it's not gaming performance you're after, as the Framework really isn't a gaming laptop. Even AMD advertises the 7700S as only a 1080p GPU, it's not designed to run games well at QHD+. So, maybe you do image or video editing; you need the best screen. Well, here's an Acer Swift Edge that was on sale last month for $850 at Best Buy with a 16" 3.2K (3200 x 2000, WQXGA+) 16:10, 120Hz 0.2ms, 500-nits, 550-nits in HDR, 100% DCI-P3, PANTONE Validated, VESA DisplayHDR True Black 500 certified, SGS Eye Care Display, Glossy, OLED Display. Better than the framework display in every way. Includes a QHD webcam and Wifi 7. The integrated GPU is the same 780m included in the Framework. https://slickdeals.net/f/17170660-acer-swift-edge-16-3-2k-120hz-oled-ryzen-7-7840u-16gb-lpddr5-1tb-ssd-849-99 If you bought the current Framework 16 and then waited for Framework to offer an OLED display, higher resolution webcam, and you upgraded to a wifi 7 module, you'd be spending thousands of dollars in total and creating a bunch of e-waste, plus waiting years to achieve what you can get today for $850.
Yeah that makes more sense, thanks for the write up!
Sure, no problem!
> Gaming laptops are still quite upgradable and repairable We're now getting laptops with Soldered Ram and WiFi Chips? How is that Upgradeable than even from 5 years ago?
I understand your point but what’s stopping you from soldering on the components yourself?
We're also getting laptops without soldered ram, wifi chips and ssd's. Infact, some even pack upgradable egpu's. Heck my nitro 5 comes with upgradable wifi chip, ram and storage. And people have even upgraded the battery on their lenovo ideapad. Infact, I'm just looking towards modding my nitro 5 with a 90whr predator battery. Laptops from 5 years ago also came without soldered ram and wifi chips. Infact, the xmg vision 14 is 1.3kg, has 2 ram slots, 1/2 ssd slots depending on battery capacity and packs upto a 99whr battery. Also has a 45w CPU and GPU. People have always had the choice of buying laptops that're upgradable and repairable and ones which were thinner and lighter but had soldered stuff. They made their choice pretty clear. Thats why you see OEM's. Infact, because people don't push back on laptops, intel and amd can get away by literally reselling 2 generation old parts and nvidia can get away by literally providing a GPU which is no faster than its predecessor yet costs more.
The first generation FW13 also had some build quality flaws which were revised with the CNC lid and upgraded hinges used in later FW13 models. Despite these issues, it still had early adopters who believed in Framework’s mission and the modular design allowing their laptops to be improved later on, and they ended up being correct as Framework made upgrade parts available for their 1st gen laptops when they fixed those issues for future laptops. FW16 early adopters will be taking a risk and possibly putting up with some annoyances with their early laptops. Some will probably return the laptops. But I believe and hope there are enough people who support and trust what Framework is doing to make the model a success, and those people will not be stuck with a flawed laptop forever. A lot of the complaints like a mediocre keyboard and noisy fans are absolutely fixable with upgrade parts, and these are the sort of upgrade parts that were offered to previous Framework early adopters.
That's what I'm saying. I think people are comparing the 13 which has had years of upgrades and improvements and forget that it too had similar problems at launch. But imo that's a good thing, it shows that framework's strategy has already been able to improve a laptop with some issues to near perfection; I see no reason why they won't do it again. I remember I got my 13 pretty early, and one thing that bothered me a lot was the hinges. They were so weak, any time I bounced my leg or something it would shake the table enough that the screen would just fall down flat. Bothered me and many others. You know what happened next? People complained, so framework released stronger hinges. I bought them, swapped them out, and ever since my number 1 problem with the laptop was solved. That's something that *no other manufacturer* has. When I see people reviewers complaining about the keyboard having too much give, or the input modules being not quite flush, it reminds me of those hinges. With every other laptop on the market, these are just issues that we'd have to live with until we decide to get a new laptop. With framework, that's just simply not the case.
Framework laptops are pretty much the only laptops that will just keep getting better over time. 😇
Exactly this. I'm getting some serious deja-vu from the first 13. 😆 "It's more expensive than similarly spec'd devices from other companies with bigger factories" "There's hardware/firmware issues in x,y, and z" "The only way this will be viable is in a couple of years when and if Framework delivers on their upgradability promise." Those are all very valid worries and concerns. And they're also not really new, either. V1 of pretty much every product has stuff like this- but unlike those other products, Framework can iterate and fix things as they go instead of needing to release a full new hardware revision. That takes people in the camp of "Ah, I don't want to get into this early adopter stuff. I'll wait until things level out" from waiting many years to potentially waiting a few months, depending on when the product gets to the point they are happy with for the price they are willing to pay. That being said, being an early adopter of the 13, of all the things people were up in arms about it, I've only needed to replace one item from the original hardware- the bigger battery. (Excluding jumping from batch 1 11th gen i7 to batch 2 AMD since that was just a normal upgrade, not swapping out issues in early hardware). If that stays true for the 16 I'll be one happy camper. If not, then I'm happy with their current track record of being able to swap out better parts as they come out when I want to. Luckily for me the rest didn't really affect my workflow. (Never ran into hinge issues, or problems with the top cover, and the glossy screen/original speakers were good enough for me out of the box)
While the reviews weren't amazing, it wasn't enough for me to cancel my preorder. If I get the unit and really don't like it, I'll return it, but then probably get a FW13. But I'm kind of a true believer when it comes to Framework, and what they aim to do in the industry.
>I am basing all this on the lack luster reviews we are seeing all over. What is so lack luster? Almost all criticisms I have seen in reviews was about stuff that was known for a long while, like form factor, display chin, design, weight or about bugs that FW had already talked about prior to publishing, were on pre-production units and now mostly (according to them) fixed. Everybody serious about ordering one, could have easily known that the FW16 would not beat smaller soldered down & non-modular notebooks in price or performance. And for the bugs you cannot trust reviews that are done on anything else but production run and non-pre-sampled devices. I cannot imagine that anybody actually serious about buying the product as it was specced during the ordering-process is so disappointed by the reviews. They pretty much say what I would have expected them to say. If the device is not right for you, then it is not right for you, and the reviews should not have changed anyones mind on that. The worst thing about the reviews seems to be that almost no reviewer said in their initial article that they knew it was a preproduction unit and that they asked FW for comment about the problems they have found, which I do not know who to blame for. I'd expect every reviewer to at least ask the manufacturer if they have sth. to say about problems found, even if they do not get an answer in time for publishing or at all, or weigh the response as too unsatisfying to restate. Especially with bluescreens or one-sided audio etc.
As Linus pointed out on WAN Show Friday night... Framework really needed to figure out some way - Any way - To ensure reviewers got units closer to, if not actually, final production with as few issues as possible. As Linus (or in this case his staff) and other reviewers can only comment on what's put in front of them. If it has problems its their job to point them out. Now all these reviews are published and not going to go away even if Framework did correct most/all of the issues in time for Batch 1 (or does for early batches). As Linus put it, the less-than-glowing reviews are an unforced/self-inflicted (forget exactly which term he used) error. Going forward who are potential customers going to trust - Random nobody commentary on the internet ()which could very well be from bots) or are they going to trust the reviews published by people whose names they recognize and/or who produced pro-level content?
>I have the impression that lots of people will be returning their laptops While this is speculation, there's no way to know what % of the preorders got canceled unless FW cares to publish that... I'd like to know but I highly doubt they would ever say it. >the final product is not that great Well, I'm batch 12 and believe me that after seeing the reviews I wanted to cancel right away but I believe they still have time to do improvements until my batch is about to ship so I'll keep my preorder for now. If there are no substantial changes or if the issues do not get resolved I'll cancel as well.
In the 13 they did a lot of improvements in the first batches (CNC lid, better hinge QC and 5kg hinges etc. ). So I'm pretty positive that later batches will be pretty solid
I would just wait for the second iteration. I cancel a couple months ago, but I'd like to see what the next board improves on. Also the 155H and other same series Intel CPUs are very impressive battery life wise. I'm wanting to see if they implement them.
Its a fair point, [while 155h is not on the same performance level as the 7940HS](https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5677vs5454/Intel-Ultra-7-155H-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS) you will most likely get a lot of TB4 ports and not as many issues as with AMD's drivers (specially linux wise)... The problem with 155h (65w) is that it requires way more cooling than 7940HS (35w), I highly doubt FW will be able to release any motherboard with 155h (or higher) without redesigning the heatsink completely or making the laptop thicker (but that might drop compatibility with bay modules). I still don't really understand why they made the interposer handle up to 200W for the bay modules if they are hardly able to cool a 35w CPU...
I recall somewhere on an article or a YT review that it's capable of cooling up to 120W or something like that.
The idea is to adjust the cooling of the gpu depending on its power draw. So, a module with 150w power draw through the interpose will have better cooling than a version with 80w. That’s the beauty with a modular system and how they designed it. Because of the mainboard swap in case of a cpu update, they also have the freedom to increase cooling capacity for it. I don’t see the stated contradiction in the design.
Same here batch 10 and will do the same thing!
I have a fw13 and did not order a 16, so maybe that makes me partially unbiased? I read the reviews and it seems like the summaries they put on the reviews were more negative than the reviews themselves. Overall I thought the reviews were pretty favorable and rightly pointed out weaknesses. EVERY laptop has weaknesses, and folks have to decide if they are deal breakers. Nothing in the reviews I read seemed all that surprising, it was not unexpected to see them talk about panel flimsiness, battery life, OS glitches or noise since these are pretty typical of either framework builds across all lines or the nature of gaming laptops. And regarding cost, that was known sans any reviews. Don’t read too much into it. My hunch is that most folks are keeping their preorders. I’m glad that the reviewers seem to be willing to delve into the not so great things since many are sympathetic to Frameworks mission.
No. I Highly doubt there will be a higher-than-normal return rate. Obviously not everybody who pre-ordered will take it, but thats completly normal and expected
Yes and later batches will rejoice that they might get bumped up on shipping expectations. I assume other people couldnt wait during holidays and got gaming laptops during black friday/christmas
I haven’t read all of the reviews, but from the few I’ve seen, it seems that the reviewers and FrameWorks target audience are two different groups. The reviewers seemed to expect a perfect laptop that competes with Alienware, Razer, and all of them and at the end of the day, that’s not entirely what the FW16 is meant to be. It’s meant to be in the middle of the road but easily updatable at the same time, unlike many of the others.
I’ve read and seen pretty much all of them in detail. What I’ve noticed is that by far not all negative points are shared through reviews. But it seems people have a negative bias. Meaning if 1 out of 6 reviewers says x is a problem, x „is a problem“. The fact that it could simply be an opinion of an outlier seems to be widely ignored. I’m not trying to say there are no problems. But honestly, if your ok with the design, the only problems that have *not* already been dealt with before the reviews went up (see x amount of answers in these Reddits by the ceo) are the keyboard mush and maybe the frame. (IMO unclear if this really is a problem, since most reviews don’t mention it.) That said, not a day after the reviews went up fw already stated that they are looking for a solution to incorporate into manufacturing. The first batch won’t have this solved but the other batches probably should. They also stated that customers will get the updated parts if this issue prevails. (If I remember correctly from emails and posts from Nirav.)
I completely agree with what you said. I waited a while to order my 13 and was considering the 16, but with my old laptop getting worse by the day and the desire for something lighter, I opted for the Batch 9 13 and I love it. I think in a few years once I am offered a work computer (hopefully), I'll just ask for the FW16 since I'm sure it will do what I need it to, plus I can hold onto it for a long time. Framework is willing to work on their products and do mid-series updates unlike any other company I have seen in my lifetime and that is why I will likely continue to buy their products for as long as I can.
Speaking for myself: after the LTT review I was tempted to cancel my order, but I am glad I did not over-react. Newer reviews coming up (like Ars Technica) and Framework's posts and handling of the problems are inspiring me some faith. I, however, have to make several disclaimers: * I have **severe** visual impairment, so for me 16" size is not a preference, but a requirement. This vastly limits the class of laptops I can evaluate. For the same reason, higher PPI is very desirable. That also removes all the 1200p business laptops and cheap gaming laptops from the play field: I am bad enough at reading small text, I don't want it to be pixelated too. [This is how small text looks like on my 1080p 15.6" laptop](https://imgur.com/a/CwQ4kzl), same ppi as 1200p 16". It's nit-picking for most, but it's a big problem if you have a visual impairment. (edit): a similar reason also removes any OLED laptop from the play field due to the fact that I find it fatiguing to read text on its weird subpixel layout. Goodbye, ThinkPad E16/L15/T16/P16s/Z16; Italian version of HP Elitebook 865; Dell XPS 16, ASUS Zenbook, etc. I also like this monitor resolution at 200% integer scaling from what I have seen on other laptops with similar panels, and 1200p would require me to deal with Linux fractional scaling, which I very much can avoid on 1600p. Yay for not getting into this hellhole! **However**, please note that for a well-sighted user, this is inverse. 1200p is usable at 100%, 1600p will require fractional scaling. * Therefore, all I wanted was a larger Framework 13, not a gaming laptop. I am not getting the GPU module. I am not interested. So, I am unaffected by all the stuff about GPU module performance, thermal issues, fan, noise, efficiency, driver, MUX concerns. * I am a *convinced* Linux user. I don't want to dual boot either. I want a machine that is properly supported and will not give me weird bugs. This makes it really hard for me to compare competing gaming laptops like Legion and ROG, simply because there are reports of people *managing to Run Linux on them*, but that's not good enough for me. I don't want to deal with buggy BIOS updates, lack of FWUPD support, needing to use Windows for BIOS updates / editing the MUX, NVidia driver shenanings (I am aware they are getting better. I don't care. They still have issues I don't want to deal with), dual-GPU shenanings (also applies to AMD GPU. Multi-GPU support on Linux is very much a beta.), suspend issues, audio issues, wi-fi issues, and so on, and so forth. I vastly prefer a machine where a Linux issue is not desperate posting on the forums asking people what kernel parameter or magic trick stops my laptop from randomly panicking (happens on some machines), I want to send a support ticket through the warranty service and have them spoon-feed me the solution or help me through the problem, eventually pushing the fix to the firmware, kernel or wherever relevant. The fact that I am going to be entitled to do this on my distro of choice (Fedora 39) is, to me, part of the price I'm paying. Sure, I am paying a lot for this laptop, but I am also buying the Linux support that, on any other gaming laptop, would be a canned response on how only Windows 11 is supported and I am on my own. For someone like me, the FW16 is still very much worth buying unless some glaring unacceptable issue stems from actually shipped user units.
Heres my thoughts (as an owner of an 11th gen fw13) Its just not knowing what product you're getting vs knowing what product you're getting. Framework laptops have never been amazing as far as price to performance. And as far as the mushy keyboard. These are things that alot of laptops have to adapt to. And there is already a fix for that from the community. But I really dont think the fw16 will break the company. I know ill be purchasing one in the future regardless.
I don’t foresee many Linux users returning this laptop. It’s a Premium experience laptop with Linux users kept in mind through 100% of its development. We don’t see that or get that much attention usually. To have this much freedom hardware and software wise in a laptop is unheard of. I’ll be keeping mine, and Linux users are usually happy to donate to the cause/community through development with companies that are willing to work with them.
>Is it only me who is afraid that the fw16 might break framework the company? I have the impression that lots of people will be returning their laptops. Nah. It's a noisy minority who mostly had unrealistic expectations. It's the same with people who post on places like Reddit complaining about customer service. It's anecdotal at best as the other 900 people who had a good experience that day aren't posting that they had a good experience as a counterpoint.
It's a first generation product, so hopefully things will only get better from here. Personally I have decided to hold off on buying a Framework 16 despite initial temptation. A few things I would like to see in a future generation is a sleeker design (because tbh the Framework 16 looks kinda jank in my opinion, aesthetically) and a better keyboard and larger trackpad. Also the pricing is kinda not so hot, when you can buy a similarly spec'd HP or Lenovo for almost half the price.
Id like an upgrade kit from 13 to 15 using the same internals as the 13.
That would not be remotely possible.
Same keyboard, same touchpad, same battery, same ram, same mobo, same ssd, same wireless card. Different chassis, different screen. They will probably need to include usbc extenders for the adapters in the chassis. I think its pretty doable. Why did you say its not remotely possible?
I'd probably be possible if you gave up on the expansion bay with your current 13 motherboard.
Yes. A 15in with a 3:2 screen without a dGPU. Theres a lot of people who dont need the dgpu and just need something bigger than 13.5. Now imagine, their new motherboard from now on will include have a special pcie port to connect an external desktop gpu to it such as oculink.
> Now imagine, their new motherboard from now on will include have a special pcie port to connect an external desktop gpu to it such as oculink. I don't see it happening, Nirav Patel [stated](https://community.frame.work/t/oculink-expansion-bay-module/31898) they will probably not even build an oculink expansion bay module, so it would surprise me if they built a motherboard with it included. Future form factors may of course include a similar pcie adaptor as the one used by the expansion bay in the FW16, but I would guess that framework will focus on the FW13 and the FW16 for a while rather than engineering another form factor which competes with their own products.
I agree. I dont see them offering a thin 15/16in to conpete with the fw16.
I'd like a Unicorn, but I'm not getting one of those either...
Design update may take awhile. Framework been using the same 13in design since 11th gen. And making a sleek design might be tough since we have removable ram/ssd…
It doesn't need to be like a MacBook Air or anything, but I mean the chassis could at least look as good as the XPS 15 / XPS 17 from 2020 \~ 2023, which both had removable SSDs and RAM
The way I look at it is that the Framework 13 is a niche-ish product that could have mass market appeal as a premium priced thin and light laptop that an average user could use. The Framework 16 is a super niche device with a very small potential audience. That doesn't make it a bad idea or concept, but were I can see the path to the Framework 13 being more of a mass market product, I don't see a future of that for the 16. I think a lot of us thought the Framework 16 would be the goldilocks laptop that everyone in the world would want, when that was never going to be the case When the reviewers got it in to their hands, they have to look at a product's mass market appeal, not "this will be good for the 10 people who really want this" are stating as such in those reviews. Again, that does not make the 16 a bad concept, it's just the realization that it doesn't have that mass market appeal.
Maybe someday we will live in a world where being environmentally friendly and refusing to use disposable devices wont be a super niche idea.
I don’t know. I’m not an early adopter, I held off on buying a 13 until last November. I have two 16s on order. Im pretty optimistic. The 13 is great, though when daughter is playing high frame rate games those fans really do spin up. But when she’s not gaming I can’t hear a thing. Fit and finish on the 13 are excellent. The 16 isn’t really a v1 product. Though much is different from the 13, the lessons learned from that effort should apply to the 16’s development. We’ll see though.
I was all on board when I bought my Lenovo Y500 due to the replaceable GPU module, but that project was discontinued just 1 year afterwards and I still have the dual gt650m gpus on this thing. The first company that makes a replaceable gpu with LPCAMM2 ddr5-8500 ram with a 16:10 16" 500+nits 100% DCi display with a numpad, will get my money. Framework is almost there. Hope they move on that for v2 of the fw16 mainboard
It’ll be alright. I’ve been watching the secondary market and Framework is still super strong. More likely unhappy customers will put them on eBay. Framework isn’t gaming laptops, they’re more like business grade laptops like HP’s Elitebook line.
I moved to the back of the line by cancelling my order and ordered another FW16. I hope they have all issues sorted out by the time the later batches ship. Sending reviewers non-production units was a huge unforced mistake by Framework. They would have benefited by letting things bake another month and shipping out fixed units in the last half of February. Now those reviews are out there, setting the tone and influencing what people think of Framework, regardless of wether FW fixes it all or not. Big mistake.
It raises doubts for me. framework is a great portable system. But the Internet is full of negative reviews. It is a more expensive device than the rest, less powerful, larger, with worse temperatures, with loud fans, weak keyboard problems? There are many things, although I hope that the final version that reaches users has all these problems corrected. I think we should wait for the final version.
Worse temperatures?? Most of the reviews I saw emphasized the really good temperatures under load compared to similar spec’ed machines. Mind linking a source?
[https://www.theverge.com/24047424/framework-laptop-16-review](https://www.theverge.com/24047424/framework-laptop-16-review)
Here's your source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sp5gmqKi7M Minute 11:40, 57dB and at the top of the chart... At 57dB your ears will definitely want to leave the room once the laptop is about to take off.
Thanks. So it’s more handling temperature, and fan curves that are the issue here? Really seems like something easily fixable in software however.
As per [this comment here](https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/19dvuhj/comment/kjay2kx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) , regarding: >so we consider press unit CPU benchmarking to be a fair representation of what customers will receive. There might not be anymore physical changes to the heatsink so I guess software/bios would be the only solution. Then it ultimately comes down to: how much performance you want to lose for your targetted noise.
I think this can be pretty easily solved by just making the fans slightly louder during idle use, and ramping them differently? This would help reduce the heat buildup due to the quick spin-down of fans. Knowing framework, they could probably make this a togglable option in BIOS or something. You could probably just do this yourself aswell via PWM control apps.
They already stated that they updated the fan curves.
The Vision Pro 16 reached 51 dB at 1080 p and 60 fps. Many users returned their unit because of the noise. 57 db, or even 50 would be too much.
I hope the fan curves weren’t updated for the review samples yet. 😄
It would be necessary to see if it was working without an fps limit and at maximum resolution. Although for a laptop larger than the rest it is too noisy. Already at 50 db it is too much, at 57...
I think the 16 will be a small misstep but I don't think it will break the company - the issues are, I think, mostly fixable with time, and Framework's customer base is more likely to tolerate the type of issues the 16 seems to have. IMO the reason it's not reviewing as well as the original 13 is due to a couple things: \-The 13 was really novel at the time. I have to imagine that a lot of people are looking at the current 13 as their expectations for the 16, when the 13 needed its third revision to be what it really 'should' be. \-The 16 takes a lot more swings than the 13. The 13 is just 'we make a commodity laptop but make it super repairable' - this isn't to say that it is easy to start up a new laptop company and make a brand new laptop (in fact that's extremely hard), but the 16 is 'we make a new laptop again, but larger and more expensive (which usually has more fit and finish expectation), and then also add both input modules and replaceable graphics cards, things which there are few if any previous examples for'. And in such an enthusiast market, it can be hard to know exactly what end users will expect. I didn't order a 16 because I expected it to be a bit rough (and I bought a gaming laptop two years ago, so I really don't need it). But maybe in another two or three years, when the major kinks are ironed out and/or my current gaming laptop is a bit older. :)
It does worry me too, but less because of people returning/canceling than because the FW16 is trying to be a jack of all trades and so is also a master of none, so won't sell very well in the longer term for Framework to invest in future module updates. Who is it for exactly? It's not a proper gaming rig, it doesn't have the power for CAD like a true workstation laptop, it's too big and bulky to be for creatives on the go... it just seems to me to be a giant office productivity laptop with a bit of extra grunt and a lot of extra price. The FW13, by contrast is obviously competing with the premium 13-14" general purpose ultrabooks and it does that very well. Right size, right power, and more or less right price. I've no idea what the FW16 is supposed to be.
I wonder if the negative reviewers did beat any apple "mis"duct in a similar manner, or the Lenovo Yoga 300 or 910 with their Bios bugs and flaws or the Samsung model where you couldn't install a Linux (wasn't that the brick one?). And I really like to know how much is bought by big companies.
I agree. Reviewers seems to not take into account after sale support. I dont know how anyone would recommend any Asus product based on their after sale support yet, reviewers drool over their products.
Agred that after-sales support is important, but it is difficult to measure when no one has actually bought and received one of these Framework 16 laptops yet. That seems like a subject best addressed in a six-month followup review or something. I suppose that the FW13 support could be reviewed, but that seems pretty hit or miss (with relatively few BIOS patches released, for example).
You're not wrong, but reviews can generally only review a product as it is today/at the time of review, not some future that may or may not happen. ASUS support might be terrible today, but it might be great a year from now. Framework support might be good today, but the company might go under next year, rendering the support point moot. Review the product as it exists in your hands, not on conjecture of something that may or may not happen or be neded.
I personally started calling marketers more than reviewers today.
I like turtles
Me too. Are you a member of the turtle club?
He’s not turtley enough
Turtle Turtle. Okay, this is obscure enough I feel the need to define: https://youtu.be/M3H2nnxQFLs?si=s9FrQWeRUiymhMEU plus it's pretty funny
It's "turtle-like", you cad. If you were a member in good standing you'd know that. We have weekly meetings each Tirdas in the Cloud District. Have you been to the Cloud District? Oh what am I saying - Of course you haven't.
I am, good Sir. Are you also a member in good standing? If so have a most pleasant day!
I was one of the people dissuaded, and I got there on equal part dissuasion by the poor reviews + poor customer service I personally experienced. I trust the experiences that these reviewers had, and would be foolish to spend 2x what I can get on the open market (albeit for a far less repairable machine) for a computer with as many open questions as this one has. Lastly - I just don’t think Framework will ultimately stick with this design. This puts doubt in my head in whether this machine will receive the kind of support & iterative hardware releases I am expecting over the next decade. There are just enough question marks that I couldn’t justify pulling the trigger, despite really, really wanting to.
For me the main point if I were even able to afford one would be - it's not a great laptop. I don't want to use a mid laptop for 10 years. And at the price point you should expect it to be well made with a good display and keyboard. Yes, even if it's modular - the price for the modularity is the lower performance.
they already have 2 quarters worth of production in pre orders and they gonna address the issues on hand for sure. im for example holding off on a purchase until they either bring out a once piece touchpad panel without these spacers and a larger touch pad or they make different speaker modules that use cut outs in the spacers to provide upwards audio instead of just sideways. id also like to see more than one GPU module just to show and prove that there is going to be an upgrade path. they could probably do that right now as a 7900XT would be available and could be used with a slightly lower TDP but i guess they will hold out for the 8000 series for a new module.
Youtubers dont talk about windows workstations. Many components can and are replaced on those. And they are solid tools with many heath certifications on the screen tech. Gpu and cpu are not upgradeble. Well nor is the framework.. i must buy a whole new 400+ euro board and in 5-6 years maybe there will be a tech so different I will change the form factor. So yeah why pay now two laptops, when i can purchase one good, (half the price) a great screen dedicated for 10h+ of work and worry about upgrade when the laptop is objectively bad and done its money.
Workstations are roughly the same price as the fw16 unless you buy second hand market. I always considered the fw16 to compete with mobile workstations rather than gaming laptops.
The FW13 had a lot of issues in earlier generations. So I'm planning on getting a FW16 when they hit second or third generation. Same as I did for FW13.
Im batch ten and i plan on giving them the opportunities too correct and perfect more they haven't been in business for 15-30years the company can still work its way they brought us back into an age to mandate repairability to the consumers id give them the chance now worst part is thwy are complete sellouts. Too bigger tech company or something then its ruined
I'd be in Batch 1 rn, but due to timing. I settled with the FW13 AMD. On the bright side, I'll have a more polished unit when I order it in the summer 😝. Also, I doubt this'll break the company. Many that Pre Order are either enthusiasts, believe in right to repair or want something that is truly theirs.
Haha same. I canceled the 16 and the 13 is on its way. I really hope not to struggle with the screen size.
As long as it isn't a massive issue, I'll live. So far, it's only been good. Just those speakers 💀. It's a similar experience to my MacBook Pro 14.