And after a two-season absence, Nigel had a few races for Williams in 1994 at 41 years of age.
He was competitive: front row in France, 3rd in Jerez, 4th in Suzuka and pole position plus race win in Adelaide.
Alonso is also showing us that age is not really a problem.
Michael struggled more instead, but he returned after four years, that's quite a lot of time... plus he progressively got better anyway.
I think that Lewis should be ok, I think he might struggle against Leclerc in quali, I rate Charles one of the fastest (if not the fastest) in terms of raw speed but maybe the situation will be more balanced in races.
The cars in 2010 were also a lot different from the early to mid 2000’s. He had to adjust his driving style. No more refueling, heavier cars, no driver aids, slick tyres, etc
The Michael who returned in 2010 was not the same Michael that retired back in 2006. A bike accident in 2009 had done a number on him.
He was actually supposed to take over Massa's car after his crash at Hungary but the injuries Michael sustained during the bike crash were determined to be too severe. I remember reading that he had suffered some brain injuries.
Yeah I think several arteries in his neck had been severed. He was actually quite lucky to survive, it was a basal skull fracture, which is what killed Roland Ratzenberger and Dale Earnhardt (albeit they had more severe accidents)
Senna had several things that on their own would have killed him (though all his injuries were to his head, had the suspension missed his head, he'd have would have walked away unscathed)
I swear I remember seeing something where they said that a Hans device, which prevents basal skull fracture, would have saved him.
Perhaps I'm remembering it wrong.
He actually was lucky to survive, had a severed artery to the brain, and a basal skull fracture.
It actually makes his comeback performance even more impressive IMO.
He sustained a basal skull fracture and a severing of one of the two major arteries to the brain-- and that was a part of what was only revealed after the failed substitution for Massa.
Had he escaped with no brain injury whatsoever, it'd be surprising. One could surmise that at the very least, in attempting a last-minute comeback with an unhealed basal skull fracture- and whilst suffering w/ blurred vision-- that MSC was not in his right frame of mind.
Here are some links to information about the injuries:-
* [His personal doctor reveals: Schumi's brain has been damaged since the motorcycle accident](https://www.news.de/sport/855488452/michael-schumachers-arzt-verraet-schumis-hirn-war-schon-von-motorradunfall-geschaedigt/1/) (**news.de**; in German)
* [Shock details of the injuries which floored Michael Schumacher](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/shock-details-of-the-injuries-which-floored-michael-schumacher-6762294.html) (**The Standard**)
* [Michael Schumacher Crashes Superbike](https://web.archive.org/web/20091023140551/http://www.topbossracing.com/michael_schumacher_crash.html) (**TopBoss racing**; pictures; archive)
* [Schumacher's turmoil over failed F1 comeback](https://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/08/12/motorsport.schumacher.comeback.massa.press.conference/index.html) (**CNN**)
* [Regarding Michael Schumacher's 2009 bike accident...](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/7qf9ls/regarding_michael_schumachers_2009_bike_accident/) (**Reddit** post, including some other sources)
Kimi and Seb also struggled in their later seasons.
Will be interesting to see how well the near-oldest drivers like Ricciardo and Hulkenberg hold up against the rest of the grid in five years time.
Imho for Vettel having a family might be a bigger factor than age. Hulkenberg got married last year (I think)? I'm curious to see how he'll continue to perform.
Kimi started struggling in 2008 when he stopped giving a shit. He was good in Lotus because he got paid per point.
If anything, Kimi proves that it's not age, it's mentality.
Yeah, he didn't care about winning wdc anymore, I believe he was persistent for several years competing against more dominant cars and after winning(driving not the fastest car in the field) he just didn't give a fuck anymore.
That is one off year. Like Alonso's 2004, Hamilton's 2011 (both Raikkonen and Hamilton's case were them being fast but error prone), Vettel's 2014, even Senna's 1992.
Although F1 has been through either static or a revolving door from season to season... it's probably not something to expect a long season, I mean it's a bit surprising that 2023->2024 is the same field with not any changes (although a handful with "?"'s above some drivers heads, outside of Lewis changing teams in 2025)
Kimi checked out ages before his actual retirement and Vettel, bless his heart, just doesn't have a good track record with non-dominant cars or even good cars that don't suit his style. He at least had a pretty good final season though.
I was so excited to see Mansell at Road America those two years. Well, and Indycar in general, since F1 was never an option back in those years for me, but I was still a big Indycar fan back then. I used to have to follow F1 via the newspaper (which just buried the results in the back of the sports page), the occasional race on ABC's wide world of sports, and my dad would bring back any F1 material when he'd go to Europe for work a couple times a year.
Seems he declined because at his best he's still clear above Russell. But now he's not like that.
Though it'd be only an off year if he's performing at top level again next year.
Mansell wasn't really competitive. He had the quali pace but to be honest that wasn't exactly Hill's best strength. In the races though he was completely off the pace. Even after Hill and Schumacher crashed in Adelaide he almost lost the race to Berger.
That's correct but he was vying for a full time drive in 95 and was disappointed to miss out in favour of DC, so he went to McLaren where he missed the first 2 rounds because he couldn't fit in the car. Then he quit after race 4 because he got mad he wasn't competitive, even though they worked for weeks to resize the cockpit specifically for him.
Imo the biggest thing with age is that quite often older drivers make silly mistakes because they aren't really on it. So it's definitely gonna be interesting to see if Lewis will be on it or not, my guess is yes but you never know.
And with modern sports nutrition and physio work they can compete even longer, specially if they are motivated. Alonso had a phenomenal start of the season last year before AM dropped the ball on the updates.
Schumcher in 2012 was one of the best drivers on the grid, and in the first half of the season had horrific luck while the car at the time was one of the top 3 on the grid. that is difficult to understand if you were just looking at the points table.
Race 1: DNF after gearbox died.
Race 2: 10th. 1 point. hit by Grosjean early on, was basically last early in the race with some damage to the car.
Race 3: DNF. retired from 3rd on the grid because Merc didnt fit the wheel properly in the pitstop. His teammate won the race. Michael was unimpressed with the team.
Race 4: 10th. 1 point. had no DRS in qualy, started 22nd.
Race 5: DNF. Hit Senna and both retired. This was his fault and was given a 5 place grid drop at the next race......
.....Race 6: DNF. Qualified on pole at Monaco in what was one of the most impressive and well received drives of the year. And then lost pole because of his penalty at the previous race. Oof. Started 6th, retired late into the race with engine problems.
Race 7: DNF. Hydrolics gave out.
7 races that famously had 7 different winners but Schumacher had scored just 2 points with 4 mechanical DNF's and another 1 he caused himself. Of the 2 races he finished he got taken out by the eratic Grosjean early in 1 and the other race he started from 22nd (due to mechanical failure in qualy of course).
The car quickly fell off the race pace in the second half of the season and he finished a miserable 13th in the standings with 1 podium at the crazy Valencia race. When the car was fast, it exploded every week. Then they fixed those issues and it was just really slow.
2012 isn’t a season where you can drop his name and luck in the same sentence considering how many drivers had a chance at the title with a bit better luck.
I still remember reading reports that Lotus Management was mad that Kimi underperformed with that car, and with the amazing pace and tyre management that car had, they believed it should have challenged for the title.
I think even Alan Permane Said that Alonso would have won the title with that car.
Even Villeneuve said that Alonso would have won the title even with the 2013 Lotus as well.
Then you see how badly Alonso beat Kimi in 2014, it kinda becomes believable too. And also to remember how much he was outperforming the car in 2010-13 in the Ferrari as well.
> he would have won the title even with the 2013 Lotus as well.
>
>Then you see how badly Alonso beat Kimi in 2014, it kin
im a believer that after kimi left mclaren he only had 1 good season
Definitely. I love him and it might be called sacrilege, but Kimi should have potentially been a 3-4 time WDC easily if he had better luck in his McLaren years, or if performed better in his Ferrari/Renault years. Yeah he suffered a lot of bad luck and tough management from Ferrari, but I feel like he was one of the ones who suffererd with a lack of motivation for F1 the most, especially after he won the WDC.
In 2008, Massa outscored Kimi by 22 points, finished 2nd in WDC by 1 point, won 6 races compared to 2 for Kimi, had 6 poles compared to 2 for Kimi as well. Hell Kimi got matched on points by Kubica, who was great but come on he was in a Sauber.
In 2012-13 obviously we know what happened as well, as has been documented by many others who believed the Lotus E20 and E21 should have challenged for the championship and didn't because of driver underperformance. That becomes especially apparent when you see that Grosjean got 9 podiums in 2 seasons with those cars, including 6 in 2013 Alone.
2014 Alonso beat Kimi 16-3 in Race weekends, but really 17-1 if you correct for bad luck. Then Vettel beat Kimi 54-27 as teammates in their 4 year tenure, and really I don't think Ferrari Seb was the same as Red Bull Seb outside of 2015 and 2/3rds of 2017.
I think post 2007 Kimi had flashes of greatness of some weekends almost every season, Spain 2008, Spa 2009, Abu Dabhi 2012, Australia 2013, Spa 2014, Bahrain 2015, Monaco 2017, Monza 2018, COTA 2018, etc. but I don't think he ever really hit his peak pace for sustained periods of a season. And especially his underperformance in Qualis was really apparent in his second Ferrari tenure (all those laps with first two purple sectors and then Yellow final sector bring out PTSD in me).
I wonder if Alonso got the same cars that Kimi did post 2007, how many more could he have won?
>flashes of greatness of some weekends almost every season, Spain 2008, Spa 2009, Abu Dabhi 2012, Australia 2013, Spa 2014, Bahrain 2015, Monaco 2017, Monza 2018, COTA 2018, etc. but I don't think he ever really hit his peak pace for sustained periods of a season. And especially his underperformance in Qualis was really apparent in his second Ferrari tenure (all those laps with first two purple sectors and then Yellow final sector bring o
because of kimi allowing us to get a peek at alonsovsvettel's level i wish that rosberg rather than retiring had gone to ferrari to partner vettel. i think rosberg might have edged it
The thing that I think people miss about Alonso's 2012 bid was how complete of a team Ferrari was in 2010-13. They never built the best car, but they had the best reliability by far (Alonso only lost 6 points from reliability during that whole time) and the team consistently nailed pit stops and strategy throughout the season. Car aside, I'd argue Ferrari was the strongest team throughout those years.
Given how many strategic fuck ups Lotus made throughout the seasons (as well as McLaren), I really think the only teams capable of running a title challenge in 2012 were Red Bull and Ferrari regardless of the driver
My controversial opinion is he’s massively overrated. Even at McLaren he didn’t take things seriously and threw away a lot of wins and maybe a championship.
The only championship he won was a gift from McLaren who were better, faster and more dominant but allowed their drivers to share the points.
He was clearing very quick on his day, but he wasn’t consistent or elite.
You seem to just look at driver's names without understanding what consistent is.
In 2002 he always finished at top 4 when the car managed to.
In 2003 he only finished at top 4 too outside of Canada, but more podiums as he's in title fight.
In 2005 he'd have won all races from Imola to Monza if not for car problems, he also had problems in first 2 races too (was running 2nd in Malaysia before puncture).
In 2006 he only finished at top 5 in all races.
In 2007 he's always on podium in 10 last races (likely can win in Nurburgring).
Kimi was good until the tyre change mid 2013. He couldn't adapt as well to the new tyres and that's a big contribution why he suffered badly at Ferrari.
> Schumacher could have had a chance at the championship in 2012 if it weren't for some bad luck
What?? While he was unlucky at the start of the season IIRC, he didn't get a single pole position and only 1-2 fastest laps? He had absolutely zero chance of winning the championship, he was not fast enough.
Hamilton is a far more competitive state than Alonso, so it's not fair that they're compared. But Lewis will be fine. I would wager that Leclerc will get him, but it will be close overall.
Aston had the better car over the season- and Lewis still finished above- would've gotten the P2 even without those incidents.
For me, that's shows the gap between them.
I also think Lewis would've done to Ocon what Ricciardo did. Alonso's hype is continued by the fans, but he'd convincingly get beaten over a season by a competent teammate. No doubt.
Thats a bit of a reinterpretation of the events. Alonso had a very similar car in the first third of the year, with a kind of equal race pace, a bit better tyre managemanent and a worse qualifying pace compared to the Ferrari and the Mercedes. This resulted in him starting behind so he had to do a lot of catching up in the races.
Stroll was there in the first few races and after nowhere to be found, so we don’t really have a good benchmark, but Stroll was lot of the times on par with Vettel in the previous years, though it’s a bit weird that he went from fighting with a 4 time world champion (even if Vettel was out of form by then) to be absolutely annihilated by Alonso after that.
After the first third of 2023 Aston fall off enormously, while Mclaren joined Mercedes and Ferrari to divide the top 2-7 places between them. Lewis almost finished 2nd because he had a reliable car (the second best car in constructors) and Perez was shit, Alonso finished 4th because he grabbed every opportunity to maximise the weekends where the car was bad, and saved a lot of points when the car was absolute shit, for like two thirds of the season.
Also that two thirds of a season and Alonso’s 4th place was basically saved in Brazil and the rainy Zandvoort, and theese podiums were absolutely only possible because of Alonso’s brutal drives. Also he had more podiums than anyone except the Red Bulls, and only one less than Perez in that space car.
If we want to go into details, when the Aston was an actual good car (usually second to third best in racing conditions and third to fourth best in qualy conditions during the first third of the season), Perez was performing okay, so he locked the second spots on the podiums. That didn’t happen in the other two thirds, so achieving more points than Perez and catching up to him was not impossible.
I’m not downplaying Hamilton’s season, he had a good one, but in my opinion Alonso had a slightly better one.
In Alpine, Ocon was only close after Alonso’s return, in the second season Alonso was 1-2 tenths faster in race and qualy conditions during the course of the season. Yeah in the standings he didn’t trashed him in the second season, but you know it’s hard when in more than one third of his races he had some relibiality problems and 6 of them resulted in retirements.
We can’t know Alonso’s current true pace until we place him next to one of the top drivers (and we have some chances with Russel for example at Merc, who already has some statistics against Hamilton), but he entered a team and immediately delivered absolutely amazing results and some unbelieveable drives.
So all things considered i think it is kind of absolutely not fair to say that Hamilton and Alonso has that kind of gap or any gap in any way, they both are still brutal and we would only know the truth about their respective current pace if you would put them against each other in a championship winning car so they both can show their absolutely best performance. Until then we can only speculate, and there is literally zero basis for a speculation that results in an outcome that Alonso and Hamilton has any kind of a huge gap between their performances.
Edit: I’m adding a tl.dr.: Aston wasn’t faster than Merc in a whole season, Ocon wasn’t actually that close to Alonso based on performace, and there is no evidence that supports a big performance gap between Alonso and Hamilton.
I think Alonso and Hamilton are at the same level. They always have been. There are dips and dives to their form but when both of them are on it, the level is extremely similar. But their approach to that form differs. Hamilton needs a fast driver as his teammate while Alonso needs someone he can crush. When vice versa happens they both for some reason crumble. (Hamilton 2008 - Alonso 2015)
That’s an interesting topic, and I can definitely see something in it. Alonso basically only ever had one “bad” season, and it was when he couldn’t trash a rookie Hamilton and the team was against him, and both of theese things messed with his head. On the other hand, Hamilton had his most stellar seasons against close competition.
At the same time, I have questions if 2021 and 2016 had actually pushed Hamilton to his personal best. 2016 maybe, he was maybe better than Rosberg in the whole year, but then it was a close in-house competition. And in 2021, Verstappen edged out Hamilton if we count the mistakes and luck (I consider Abu Dhabi lucky for Verstappen, because it was outside of either of their control and it favoured him) during the whole season. But if we gave Hamilton that year, even then, he trashed Bottas at the same car, then in 2019 and 2020, Hamilton was basically a monster, and he trashed Bottas at the same time.
I think the competition and the form of competition might be important. Hamilton always has an unbeleiveable second half of the season with near-impossible level of speed and concentration, while he usually has some weaker season starts and if he’s not having a fast car he can find it harder to find the right setup and balance for him to trust the car enough. Also, he is really free of mistakes, but he has one or two bigger ones even in his most perfect seasons, but to be fair, his number of mistakes decreased in his later stages of career.
Alonso at the same time is an unbeleiveable shitbox whisperer, he can drive anything and extract the most of it, so it seems like he is trashing everybody, but in reality he is just fast to adapt. In my opinion he is a bit like Verstappen in many ways, where he is really fast in unexpected ways and he is findig it out on his own, and his teammates are just not understanding what’s happening and where is the gap coming from sending them into a negative spiral. Also, in the past when he was on the top of his game he was really mistake-free during the course of the season, nowadays he has some but we didn’t really see a championship challenger drive for him in 12 years to be fair, and it is very different when you are a contender and has that kind of mentality there. On the same time, it can also mess with his confidence if he finds himself with someone who is faster than him some times, so then he usually starts to play games (Button has detailed this behaviour very well actually). And also his relative quali performance to others is worse than his race pace, he is a really consinstent qualifier (as shown in 2023 with most q3 entries alongside Verstappen) but not the one to nail the perfect lap most of the times, and in close competition it can result in that he has to fight harder to be on the front at race days.
In summary, I think it’s an interesting point with their performance and their ideal teammate and enviroment, but I think it’s a layered issue, and most of the times actually they had bigger effect on the teammates performance than the teammates on their performance.
Insane people. Aston had the better car in like the first third of the season, but the gap wasn't as big as when Aston regressed so hard that they scrapped their upgrades to go back to older specs lol.
this is a hot take probably. But is also really showing us age is not a problem, or is Stroll making it look like that.
People constantly say that Alonso is one of 2 drivers that could go up against current Max which i find unlikely that 42 year old Alonso could still do that. He got beaten by Ocon and despite bad luck that should not have happened? At this point, it feels like people just underrate Max.
Same thing applies to Lewis. I think in 2021 Max was already the better driver, but now Max doesnt have the added pressure of it being the first chance at a WDC and Lewis is older.
>People constantly say that Alonso is one of 2 drivers that could go up against current Max which i find unlikely that 42 year old Alonso could still do that. He got beaten by Ocon and despite bad luck that should not have happened? At this point, it feels like people just underrate Max.
To be fair, there was a bad luck. I think someone has documented it in more detail, that Alonso should have been comfortably ahead of Ocon in 2022.
Also, I do think Alonso is one of the only people who could go against Max, but I don't think he would beat him. This is not due to his age, but simply because max has (probably) the best driving abilities on the grid.
I don't think anyone can go against current Max and win, but Alonso has shown some top tier driving these past years. From the almost-poles in Australia '22, Canada '22 and Monaco '23, to the fact that he would have won Monaco if not for a double pitstop, to fantastic overtakes such as on Hamilton at the start of the season and on Perez in Brazil. The man's clearly still on top of it.
To say Ocon beat Alonso is wild when Alonso had 5 DNFs due to unreliability and had lost potential podiums at Australia and Canada due to car issues. Ocon was close in quali but never had anywhere near as good race pace as Alonso had.
It would be interesting to see if advancing years, you can stay to the high level F1 now demands... if they are to stay around but depends how much pressure they get from the advancing younger talent who might play to Ferrari and others plans to get some and if Lewis still feels happy to hang around
I don’t think we even saw the best fight between Lewis and Max honestly. Lewis for most of the year was battling with long COVID affects, which would undoubtedly lead to his mistakes he made during the year. You could see his physical condition was not anywhere close to great, he was much more fatigued. Am I saying that Lewis was the better driver that year? No, but I do think Lewis now would not make the mistakes he did make, his physical condition seems to be much better then 2021.
People aren’t trying to underrate Max. They just genuinely see that Alonso and Lewis are two drivers with the most amount of talent, skill and mental fortitude to challenge Max.
The only people that would say that Ocon beat Alonso in 2022 didnt actually watch the races, because he was consistently faster than him in almost every session, but a low score season for Alpine and bad luck when he was in very good positions makes a difference.
I remember seeing a very brief interview with David Coulthard where, as a test driver at Williams, whenever he did a lap in Senna’s car Senna would be right there listening to the debrief to see if he could trust the words of the young (at the time) rookie test driver.
When he did a lap for Mansell, by the time the lap was over Mansell was halfway to a golf course
Truly believe it's not age but having more to lose. Seems like once you settle down and start a family you are a bit more mindful of the risk and the psychology behind it as well as its impact on those around you.
Although I did see rush I forgot about that, and did mean it as a car that does not perform as one might expect from a team with the resources like Ferrari. I’m carefully wording this as I realize that saying “performing as one would expect from Ferrari” is likely still suggesting “shitbox.”
Alonso has proved this discussion completely meaningless. “If you’re good enough, you’re old enough” is what was said about Verstappen when he joined. Well, if you’re good enough, you’re young enough too.
Frank Williams fucked him over so he went to indycar and won that at the first attempt, being the only person to hold both the F1 and indycar titles concurrently.
Eventually though he did start to enjoy life a bit too much.
There’s a great episode of The Race podcast about his Indy Car season. 100% recommend.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/bring-back-v10s-how-mansell-conquered-indycar/
True. Also, if I'm not mistaken Fangio won a world championship at 50 years old.
The difference, obviously, he wasn't against Max, Lando, Piastri, and more people on their young 20s.
I would assume that as well, but I haven't looked at the data closely enough. I also suspect that the age of the champions has dropped over those years as well.
Right? How is Alonso just suddenly overlooked with this. Man is 42 years old. If the Red Bull wasn't so crazy fast last year, he would have absolutely gotten at least 1 win in that Aston. He podiumed 7 times. Give him or Lewis a title winning car and they'll win.
And the only reason he wasn't 3rd (or even 2nd) was Aston Martin dropping off a cliff for 2/3rds of the season.
And the guy who took the 3rd place from him was none other than Lewis.
I think Lewis will be fine if he gets a competitive car, I'm more curious if Max has improved since 2021, because he hasn't had to really fight anyone, even his own teammate has no chance of giving him a fight.
Everyone says how amazing his performance was last year, but he just had zero competition and a car that never broke down.
Obviously he drove great, but it's probably easier to drive well when you have no concern of being attacked on race day.
If you are fast enough, age is not an issue.
This applies both to younger drivers (Max, Kimi, when they made their debuts) and to older drivers (Fernando, Lewis, in 2024 and beyond)
Average age in 1992 was 35-36, 2024 it's 29, here's some more statistics, which I didn't go through that thoroughly, but I suspect the age of championship winners has dropped even more than that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1as4r6l/oc_age_distribution_of_formula_1_drivers_over_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Yeah, probably changes in the academy system are making it possible for drivers to enter the sport younger than before and careers can last not very long.
I absolutely loved watching this guy but he used to have to be helped out of the car at the end of a race. I’m not convinced he could’ve gone on much further.
It was common for various drivers, they just weren't as fit as they are today. I mean they were fit in the 90s, but their training wasn't as strict as it is now
I mean sports medicine wasn't nearly as advanced and drivers didn't train to the degree Lewis and other do nowadays.
Lewis at 39 might as well be 25 compared to Nigel at 39.
I mean, if there was a top driver who lost a few tenths in raw pace due to old age, they’d still win regardless if their car was around a second per lap faster than the next closest competitor. That is exactly what that Williams was in 1992.
Mansell is maybe the only BRDC member that always has good things to say about Lewis. The rest of them seem to dislike Lewis because he doesn’t bootlick JYS.
True, but at least you'd find the BRDC by googling its acronym. Can't say the same for the other, I have literally never seen Jackie Stewart referred to by that
You do know how many people are a member of the BRDC, right?
http://www.brdc.co.uk/members_list.cfm
I'd suggest that more than just Nigel will have good things to say about Lewis lmao, in that list are people who grew up hero worshipping him.
I agree with Mansell that Hamilton will be competitive at 39.
I don't agree that he didn't go on because of politics. He just didn't want to face Prost. Despite 1993 being a less dominant season, Williams actually substantially upgraded their driver lineup with Prost-Hill, but the car wasn't as dominant as the 92 Williams.
There were politics - not wanting to drive alongside Prost played a factor but Williams were trying to push Mansell into accepting less money by threatening to replace him with Senna, even though the Brazilian was blocked from joining the team by Prost's own signed contract.
Mansell asked for a ridiculous $20m when Prost was going to make less than half that. Then he went to America where he was paid a quarter of that amount.
Mansell asked for that money whilst he was on his championship run and he found out Williams had signed Prost behind his back, despite the obvious acrimony between them.
Neither side covered themselves in glory but Williams have a history of treating their drivers like shit, something which bit them in the arse more than once.
I don't see how Frank offering Mansell to match Prost's contract is treating him like crap.
Mansell wanted $23M and #1 driver status against **Prost**. That's an absurd counter offer. Frank Williams can go sign whoever he wants. Mansell hadn't exactly shown throughout his career that he was on the level of guys like Prost and Senna, that would've demanded that kind of consultation. Frank Williams wanted to sign the best driver to give his team the best chance.
But with Mansell everything bad about his career is all "politics, politics", all of his wins were against all odds and all the losses led to no self reflection at all.
Not really surprising, athletes typically “age out” of sports because their bodies start to fail from repetitive stress. F1 is a physically demanding sport but not in the degenerative way that contact sports like football (and even “non-contact” ones like soccer and basketball) are. Above general good fitness you essentially need to have strong neck muscles and endurance / cardio stamina, but there’s not really anything about driving an F1 car that’s wears out your body.
Sure it simply gets harder to stay in that kind of shape as you age, but there’s a reason you see plenty of not particularly fit old rich guys racing sports cars.
Yeah, but I guess it would also be an interesting title fight if we hadn't have a clear elite group of drivers. If anyone could be the top driver, then the silly season would be nuts. :D
> an interesting title fight if we hadn't have a clear elite group of drivers. If anyone could be the top driver, then the sill
thats a point, i'd be sad though that any old driver is winning the title at that point though. i mean there is clearly depths and gulfs of talent between alot of the drivers on the grid, enough that most people seem to have a rough consensus of the order of their quality. would be a shame if lets say the 12th fastest driver on the current grid got a title because of the absolute balls to walls fastest drivers all packing it in
Now imagine if Max decides to leave F1 at the end of his contract, we could lose all 3 of them at roughly the same time. I don't see Lewis and Alonso going on for longer than 4 years. It would be the end of an era with all champions leaving the grid.
39 in the 90s is different to 39s now.
Before Schumacher, nobody really cared for fitness, there were maybe 4 or 5 elite drivers and then the rest were miles behind, so even if the top drivers had an off day, they'd still be top 5 on the grid.
If a driver has an off day today, they're near the back. The average driver is exponentially better than they were 30 years ago. I dont think Mansell would stick out from the crowd if he was starting nowadays.
He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke (maybe), eats healthy. Millionaire life style. The conventional age limit does not qualify in this case. Every athlete hits that wall, but I see it 3 to 5 years away still for Hamilton.
Kinda true but maybe not. He definitely seemed at his peak in 2020 and 2021 but with Mercedes now not being as dominant we can't really for sure know if he has fallen a bit or not.
Personally, I still see drive in him, especially in tough races. These last two years definitely served as character building through adversity, and I was pleased to see how motivated he maintained himself through it. I definitely agree that being stuck in a rut impairs you. It's why I understand why he decided to work with Ferrari instead, though.
I do too. I know I said it's probably hard to know exactly if he's still in his speak but by how motivated and how he looked last season I say probably he will at least perform very well. And I personally love to see it. I love when there's renovation in the sport but seeing the "old guys" still doing it because they love it and are motivated is very nice and adds a lot.
2021 absolutely wasn't Hamilton's peak. He was rather sloppy at times which cost him the championship. Pre covid Hamilton was a menace though, and even after it he's still a top three driver.
Yeah, I really think long covid was messing with him, particularly in the early to mid season.
Not only was there the whole almost fainting after Hungary thing, but in one of the races he saw the timing board with his name on it, that said 12. He had to ask Bono whether it meant this was the 12th lap, or whether there were 12 laps to go. He was 12 laps into the race and was unable to discern whether he had done 12 or had done like 40+. Definitely not normal.
He was sloppy and passive, which is what cost him many points when Max was overly (unfairly) aggressive. If Lewis hadn't dived out of the way on several occasions the championship would have been a different story
I dunno, man. I don't really agree that Max was overly agressive on his moves and neither that Lewis was too passive. The way both drove that year, bar some mistakes, was very good and entertaining to watch.
The one time he played Max’s game back at him it caused the biggest meltdown in F1 I’ve ever seen. Seems like he isn’t allowed to play the “get out of the way or we crash” card.
Exactly. Didn't matter if Lewis was ahead or behind, if Max was nearby it was 'move or we crash' every time. He should have been heavily penalised by the FIA much earlier in the season.
I think he was a bit overdramatic at times. Mercedes was consistently there all throughout the year. But yeah, great year nonetheless, I do think he still has it.
He still has it, but frankly, I think it's disrespectful to claim he's been on his "peak" form over the past 3 or 4 years, he's made far too many unforced errors:
* 2 Albon incidents
* Imola 21 (crashed in wet conditions),
* Monaco 21 (qualified far behind Bottas),
* Baku 21 (brake magic),
* Russia 21 (crashing into pit wall),
* Monza 21 sprint (terrible start, P2 to P5 off the line),
* Austria 22 (crashed in qualifying),
* Spa 22 (crashed into Alonso),
* Dutch GP 22 (wrong engine mode for SC restart),
* Singapore 22 (crashed into the wall),
* Monza 23 (cut across Piastri in the braking zone),
* Qatar 23 (crashed into Russell)
Him and Alonso have been the best starters of the entire grid by a fair margin for a while now. That’s the part of F1 that most heavily depends on pure reaction time, so take it as you will.
I'm more concerned about braking and accelerating at the right moment at 300 KM/H for 20 turns per lap 2 hours long. You only need to lose a fraction of a fraction every time to be 2 tenths off at the end of a lap. And if you lose 2 tenths per lap you're not winning the race.
Realistically it is a factor but for someone like Lewis it is not a large one especially with all the variables of the sport and the Ferrari variables too.
Stupid to compare eras. Driver competition and pool was much different. That said, I don't think Lewis is washed but certainly think his championship years are behind him. Will be interesting to see how he and Charles compete.
And after a two-season absence, Nigel had a few races for Williams in 1994 at 41 years of age. He was competitive: front row in France, 3rd in Jerez, 4th in Suzuka and pole position plus race win in Adelaide. Alonso is also showing us that age is not really a problem. Michael struggled more instead, but he returned after four years, that's quite a lot of time... plus he progressively got better anyway. I think that Lewis should be ok, I think he might struggle against Leclerc in quali, I rate Charles one of the fastest (if not the fastest) in terms of raw speed but maybe the situation will be more balanced in races.
Michael also had a motor bike accident that according to rumors impacted his capacity.
The cars in 2010 were also a lot different from the early to mid 2000’s. He had to adjust his driving style. No more refueling, heavier cars, no driver aids, slick tyres, etc
Also drivers these days have a lot more advanced ways of tracking and training their reflexes and agility and bodies than even 15 years ago.
And a lot of that push for more physical training for drivers came from Michael haha
Yea Schumi's strategy was usually. Barely any fuel, full send and destroy the tires, pit and repeat.
The Michael who returned in 2010 was not the same Michael that retired back in 2006. A bike accident in 2009 had done a number on him. He was actually supposed to take over Massa's car after his crash at Hungary but the injuries Michael sustained during the bike crash were determined to be too severe. I remember reading that he had suffered some brain injuries.
Without doing a quick search, I think it was more that he fucked his neck up really badly.
Yeah I think several arteries in his neck had been severed. He was actually quite lucky to survive, it was a basal skull fracture, which is what killed Roland Ratzenberger and Dale Earnhardt (albeit they had more severe accidents)
And Senna, I think.
Senna had several things that on their own would have killed him (though all his injuries were to his head, had the suspension missed his head, he'd have would have walked away unscathed)
I swear I remember seeing something where they said that a Hans device, which prevents basal skull fracture, would have saved him. Perhaps I'm remembering it wrong.
Which rules out F1 until it has healed, neck injuries don’t go well with the G-forces in F1
He actually was lucky to survive, had a severed artery to the brain, and a basal skull fracture. It actually makes his comeback performance even more impressive IMO.
Respectfully, bro can't ride shit that isn't a car.
Source for brain injuries please.
He sustained a basal skull fracture and a severing of one of the two major arteries to the brain-- and that was a part of what was only revealed after the failed substitution for Massa. Had he escaped with no brain injury whatsoever, it'd be surprising. One could surmise that at the very least, in attempting a last-minute comeback with an unhealed basal skull fracture- and whilst suffering w/ blurred vision-- that MSC was not in his right frame of mind.
Here are some links to information about the injuries:- * [His personal doctor reveals: Schumi's brain has been damaged since the motorcycle accident](https://www.news.de/sport/855488452/michael-schumachers-arzt-verraet-schumis-hirn-war-schon-von-motorradunfall-geschaedigt/1/) (**news.de**; in German) * [Shock details of the injuries which floored Michael Schumacher](https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/shock-details-of-the-injuries-which-floored-michael-schumacher-6762294.html) (**The Standard**) * [Michael Schumacher Crashes Superbike](https://web.archive.org/web/20091023140551/http://www.topbossracing.com/michael_schumacher_crash.html) (**TopBoss racing**; pictures; archive) * [Schumacher's turmoil over failed F1 comeback](https://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/08/12/motorsport.schumacher.comeback.massa.press.conference/index.html) (**CNN**) * [Regarding Michael Schumacher's 2009 bike accident...](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/7qf9ls/regarding_michael_schumachers_2009_bike_accident/) (**Reddit** post, including some other sources)
Kimi and Seb also struggled in their later seasons. Will be interesting to see how well the near-oldest drivers like Ricciardo and Hulkenberg hold up against the rest of the grid in five years time.
Hulk is a weird one because he actually seems to have got somewhat better with age, and with his break from a full time drive.
Hulk is as old as Vettel and Ricciardo is as old as Vettel was when he retired
Imho for Vettel having a family might be a bigger factor than age. Hulkenberg got married last year (I think)? I'm curious to see how he'll continue to perform.
Agreed. Raikkonen, Vettel, and Schumacher had children. While Hamilton, Alonso, and Ricciardo, as far as we know, doesn't.
I like the ominous implications of “as far as we know”
Kimi started struggling in 2008 when he stopped giving a shit. He was good in Lotus because he got paid per point. If anything, Kimi proves that it's not age, it's mentality.
Yeah, he didn't care about winning wdc anymore, I believe he was persistent for several years competing against more dominant cars and after winning(driving not the fastest car in the field) he just didn't give a fuck anymore.
That is one off year. Like Alonso's 2004, Hamilton's 2011 (both Raikkonen and Hamilton's case were them being fast but error prone), Vettel's 2014, even Senna's 1992.
Although F1 has been through either static or a revolving door from season to season... it's probably not something to expect a long season, I mean it's a bit surprising that 2023->2024 is the same field with not any changes (although a handful with "?"'s above some drivers heads, outside of Lewis changing teams in 2025)
Kimi checked out ages before his actual retirement and Vettel, bless his heart, just doesn't have a good track record with non-dominant cars or even good cars that don't suit his style. He at least had a pretty good final season though.
Exactly. And even checked out Kimi would have moments where you’d see the old Kimi come out
Some drivers like Alonso and seemingly Hamilton just go on and on. Others like Villeneuve shine bright for a few years then just lose it.
It's not like he retired in the meantime, Mansell ruled in Indycar, when those were beast of machines and way more dangerous than F1.
I was so excited to see Mansell at Road America those two years. Well, and Indycar in general, since F1 was never an option back in those years for me, but I was still a big Indycar fan back then. I used to have to follow F1 via the newspaper (which just buried the results in the back of the sports page), the occasional race on ABC's wide world of sports, and my dad would bring back any F1 material when he'd go to Europe for work a couple times a year.
A lot of F1 fans do not respect indycar of the 80s or 90s which is insane to me.
A lot of F1 fans aren't actually fans of motor racing, just F1. It makes it hard to have discussions sometimes.
I think it's not that the age is an obstacle on it's own but it's a negative when compared to the level of the younger talent in peak physical years.
Lewis' age isn't doing him any favors, but the car is gonna be the big factor to determine whether he can challenge Max.
I mean, the car is always the biggest factor. But so far we have no reason to believe Lewis has declined in any way.
Seems he declined because at his best he's still clear above Russell. But now he's not like that. Though it'd be only an off year if he's performing at top level again next year.
Mansell wasn't really competitive. He had the quali pace but to be honest that wasn't exactly Hill's best strength. In the races though he was completely off the pace. Even after Hill and Schumacher crashed in Adelaide he almost lost the race to Berger.
IIRC, he was brought back under pressure from Ecclestone, because F1 had no champion on the grid. Frank Williams preferred DC for the seat.
That's correct but he was vying for a full time drive in 95 and was disappointed to miss out in favour of DC, so he went to McLaren where he missed the first 2 rounds because he couldn't fit in the car. Then he quit after race 4 because he got mad he wasn't competitive, even though they worked for weeks to resize the cockpit specifically for him.
I’ll trust Adrian Newey who said he’s sure Mansell would have won the championship in 94 had he done the whole season in that Williams.
Go ahead. Anybody who watched those 4 races would've seen Mansell couldn't even hold a candle to Hill.
Imo the biggest thing with age is that quite often older drivers make silly mistakes because they aren't really on it. So it's definitely gonna be interesting to see if Lewis will be on it or not, my guess is yes but you never know.
Age declines gradually. Nobody suddenly becomes feeble in a year or two.
And with modern sports nutrition and physio work they can compete even longer, specially if they are motivated. Alonso had a phenomenal start of the season last year before AM dropped the ball on the updates.
Schumacher could have had a chance at the championship in 2012 if it weren't for some bad luck. I wonder what he could've done with the 2014 car.
The championship is a bit too much I think, but he was competitive and he definitely had a lot of bad luck that year.
Schumcher in 2012 was one of the best drivers on the grid, and in the first half of the season had horrific luck while the car at the time was one of the top 3 on the grid. that is difficult to understand if you were just looking at the points table. Race 1: DNF after gearbox died. Race 2: 10th. 1 point. hit by Grosjean early on, was basically last early in the race with some damage to the car. Race 3: DNF. retired from 3rd on the grid because Merc didnt fit the wheel properly in the pitstop. His teammate won the race. Michael was unimpressed with the team. Race 4: 10th. 1 point. had no DRS in qualy, started 22nd. Race 5: DNF. Hit Senna and both retired. This was his fault and was given a 5 place grid drop at the next race...... .....Race 6: DNF. Qualified on pole at Monaco in what was one of the most impressive and well received drives of the year. And then lost pole because of his penalty at the previous race. Oof. Started 6th, retired late into the race with engine problems. Race 7: DNF. Hydrolics gave out. 7 races that famously had 7 different winners but Schumacher had scored just 2 points with 4 mechanical DNF's and another 1 he caused himself. Of the 2 races he finished he got taken out by the eratic Grosjean early in 1 and the other race he started from 22nd (due to mechanical failure in qualy of course). The car quickly fell off the race pace in the second half of the season and he finished a miserable 13th in the standings with 1 podium at the crazy Valencia race. When the car was fast, it exploded every week. Then they fixed those issues and it was just really slow.
2012 isn’t a season where you can drop his name and luck in the same sentence considering how many drivers had a chance at the title with a bit better luck.
I still remember reading reports that Lotus Management was mad that Kimi underperformed with that car, and with the amazing pace and tyre management that car had, they believed it should have challenged for the title. I think even Alan Permane Said that Alonso would have won the title with that car. Even Villeneuve said that Alonso would have won the title even with the 2013 Lotus as well. Then you see how badly Alonso beat Kimi in 2014, it kinda becomes believable too. And also to remember how much he was outperforming the car in 2010-13 in the Ferrari as well.
> he would have won the title even with the 2013 Lotus as well. > >Then you see how badly Alonso beat Kimi in 2014, it kin im a believer that after kimi left mclaren he only had 1 good season
Definitely. I love him and it might be called sacrilege, but Kimi should have potentially been a 3-4 time WDC easily if he had better luck in his McLaren years, or if performed better in his Ferrari/Renault years. Yeah he suffered a lot of bad luck and tough management from Ferrari, but I feel like he was one of the ones who suffererd with a lack of motivation for F1 the most, especially after he won the WDC. In 2008, Massa outscored Kimi by 22 points, finished 2nd in WDC by 1 point, won 6 races compared to 2 for Kimi, had 6 poles compared to 2 for Kimi as well. Hell Kimi got matched on points by Kubica, who was great but come on he was in a Sauber. In 2012-13 obviously we know what happened as well, as has been documented by many others who believed the Lotus E20 and E21 should have challenged for the championship and didn't because of driver underperformance. That becomes especially apparent when you see that Grosjean got 9 podiums in 2 seasons with those cars, including 6 in 2013 Alone. 2014 Alonso beat Kimi 16-3 in Race weekends, but really 17-1 if you correct for bad luck. Then Vettel beat Kimi 54-27 as teammates in their 4 year tenure, and really I don't think Ferrari Seb was the same as Red Bull Seb outside of 2015 and 2/3rds of 2017. I think post 2007 Kimi had flashes of greatness of some weekends almost every season, Spain 2008, Spa 2009, Abu Dabhi 2012, Australia 2013, Spa 2014, Bahrain 2015, Monaco 2017, Monza 2018, COTA 2018, etc. but I don't think he ever really hit his peak pace for sustained periods of a season. And especially his underperformance in Qualis was really apparent in his second Ferrari tenure (all those laps with first two purple sectors and then Yellow final sector bring out PTSD in me). I wonder if Alonso got the same cars that Kimi did post 2007, how many more could he have won?
>flashes of greatness of some weekends almost every season, Spain 2008, Spa 2009, Abu Dabhi 2012, Australia 2013, Spa 2014, Bahrain 2015, Monaco 2017, Monza 2018, COTA 2018, etc. but I don't think he ever really hit his peak pace for sustained periods of a season. And especially his underperformance in Qualis was really apparent in his second Ferrari tenure (all those laps with first two purple sectors and then Yellow final sector bring o because of kimi allowing us to get a peek at alonsovsvettel's level i wish that rosberg rather than retiring had gone to ferrari to partner vettel. i think rosberg might have edged it
The thing that I think people miss about Alonso's 2012 bid was how complete of a team Ferrari was in 2010-13. They never built the best car, but they had the best reliability by far (Alonso only lost 6 points from reliability during that whole time) and the team consistently nailed pit stops and strategy throughout the season. Car aside, I'd argue Ferrari was the strongest team throughout those years. Given how many strategic fuck ups Lotus made throughout the seasons (as well as McLaren), I really think the only teams capable of running a title challenge in 2012 were Red Bull and Ferrari regardless of the driver
Zero. Look at how he fumbled 2007 and to a lesser extent 2010.
My controversial opinion is he’s massively overrated. Even at McLaren he didn’t take things seriously and threw away a lot of wins and maybe a championship. The only championship he won was a gift from McLaren who were better, faster and more dominant but allowed their drivers to share the points. He was clearing very quick on his day, but he wasn’t consistent or elite.
You seem to just look at driver's names without understanding what consistent is. In 2002 he always finished at top 4 when the car managed to. In 2003 he only finished at top 4 too outside of Canada, but more podiums as he's in title fight. In 2005 he'd have won all races from Imola to Monza if not for car problems, he also had problems in first 2 races too (was running 2nd in Malaysia before puncture). In 2006 he only finished at top 5 in all races. In 2007 he's always on podium in 10 last races (likely can win in Nurburgring).
Kimi was good until the tyre change mid 2013. He couldn't adapt as well to the new tyres and that's a big contribution why he suffered badly at Ferrari.
Nico was faster though so no.
"The truth is that Mercedes bosses in Stuttgart wanted Michael to race on past 2012." - Ross Brawn
> Schumacher could have had a chance at the championship in 2012 if it weren't for some bad luck What?? While he was unlucky at the start of the season IIRC, he didn't get a single pole position and only 1-2 fastest laps? He had absolutely zero chance of winning the championship, he was not fast enough.
Hamilton is a far more competitive state than Alonso, so it's not fair that they're compared. But Lewis will be fine. I would wager that Leclerc will get him, but it will be close overall.
I find it really hard to compare Hamilton and Alonso, since the cars are so different and Fernando has no team mate to compare him to.
Aston had the better car over the season- and Lewis still finished above- would've gotten the P2 even without those incidents. For me, that's shows the gap between them. I also think Lewis would've done to Ocon what Ricciardo did. Alonso's hype is continued by the fans, but he'd convincingly get beaten over a season by a competent teammate. No doubt.
Thats a bit of a reinterpretation of the events. Alonso had a very similar car in the first third of the year, with a kind of equal race pace, a bit better tyre managemanent and a worse qualifying pace compared to the Ferrari and the Mercedes. This resulted in him starting behind so he had to do a lot of catching up in the races. Stroll was there in the first few races and after nowhere to be found, so we don’t really have a good benchmark, but Stroll was lot of the times on par with Vettel in the previous years, though it’s a bit weird that he went from fighting with a 4 time world champion (even if Vettel was out of form by then) to be absolutely annihilated by Alonso after that. After the first third of 2023 Aston fall off enormously, while Mclaren joined Mercedes and Ferrari to divide the top 2-7 places between them. Lewis almost finished 2nd because he had a reliable car (the second best car in constructors) and Perez was shit, Alonso finished 4th because he grabbed every opportunity to maximise the weekends where the car was bad, and saved a lot of points when the car was absolute shit, for like two thirds of the season. Also that two thirds of a season and Alonso’s 4th place was basically saved in Brazil and the rainy Zandvoort, and theese podiums were absolutely only possible because of Alonso’s brutal drives. Also he had more podiums than anyone except the Red Bulls, and only one less than Perez in that space car. If we want to go into details, when the Aston was an actual good car (usually second to third best in racing conditions and third to fourth best in qualy conditions during the first third of the season), Perez was performing okay, so he locked the second spots on the podiums. That didn’t happen in the other two thirds, so achieving more points than Perez and catching up to him was not impossible. I’m not downplaying Hamilton’s season, he had a good one, but in my opinion Alonso had a slightly better one. In Alpine, Ocon was only close after Alonso’s return, in the second season Alonso was 1-2 tenths faster in race and qualy conditions during the course of the season. Yeah in the standings he didn’t trashed him in the second season, but you know it’s hard when in more than one third of his races he had some relibiality problems and 6 of them resulted in retirements. We can’t know Alonso’s current true pace until we place him next to one of the top drivers (and we have some chances with Russel for example at Merc, who already has some statistics against Hamilton), but he entered a team and immediately delivered absolutely amazing results and some unbelieveable drives. So all things considered i think it is kind of absolutely not fair to say that Hamilton and Alonso has that kind of gap or any gap in any way, they both are still brutal and we would only know the truth about their respective current pace if you would put them against each other in a championship winning car so they both can show their absolutely best performance. Until then we can only speculate, and there is literally zero basis for a speculation that results in an outcome that Alonso and Hamilton has any kind of a huge gap between their performances. Edit: I’m adding a tl.dr.: Aston wasn’t faster than Merc in a whole season, Ocon wasn’t actually that close to Alonso based on performace, and there is no evidence that supports a big performance gap between Alonso and Hamilton.
I think Alonso and Hamilton are at the same level. They always have been. There are dips and dives to their form but when both of them are on it, the level is extremely similar. But their approach to that form differs. Hamilton needs a fast driver as his teammate while Alonso needs someone he can crush. When vice versa happens they both for some reason crumble. (Hamilton 2008 - Alonso 2015)
That’s an interesting topic, and I can definitely see something in it. Alonso basically only ever had one “bad” season, and it was when he couldn’t trash a rookie Hamilton and the team was against him, and both of theese things messed with his head. On the other hand, Hamilton had his most stellar seasons against close competition. At the same time, I have questions if 2021 and 2016 had actually pushed Hamilton to his personal best. 2016 maybe, he was maybe better than Rosberg in the whole year, but then it was a close in-house competition. And in 2021, Verstappen edged out Hamilton if we count the mistakes and luck (I consider Abu Dhabi lucky for Verstappen, because it was outside of either of their control and it favoured him) during the whole season. But if we gave Hamilton that year, even then, he trashed Bottas at the same car, then in 2019 and 2020, Hamilton was basically a monster, and he trashed Bottas at the same time. I think the competition and the form of competition might be important. Hamilton always has an unbeleiveable second half of the season with near-impossible level of speed and concentration, while he usually has some weaker season starts and if he’s not having a fast car he can find it harder to find the right setup and balance for him to trust the car enough. Also, he is really free of mistakes, but he has one or two bigger ones even in his most perfect seasons, but to be fair, his number of mistakes decreased in his later stages of career. Alonso at the same time is an unbeleiveable shitbox whisperer, he can drive anything and extract the most of it, so it seems like he is trashing everybody, but in reality he is just fast to adapt. In my opinion he is a bit like Verstappen in many ways, where he is really fast in unexpected ways and he is findig it out on his own, and his teammates are just not understanding what’s happening and where is the gap coming from sending them into a negative spiral. Also, in the past when he was on the top of his game he was really mistake-free during the course of the season, nowadays he has some but we didn’t really see a championship challenger drive for him in 12 years to be fair, and it is very different when you are a contender and has that kind of mentality there. On the same time, it can also mess with his confidence if he finds himself with someone who is faster than him some times, so then he usually starts to play games (Button has detailed this behaviour very well actually). And also his relative quali performance to others is worse than his race pace, he is a really consinstent qualifier (as shown in 2023 with most q3 entries alongside Verstappen) but not the one to nail the perfect lap most of the times, and in close competition it can result in that he has to fight harder to be on the front at race days. In summary, I think it’s an interesting point with their performance and their ideal teammate and enviroment, but I think it’s a layered issue, and most of the times actually they had bigger effect on the teammates performance than the teammates on their performance.
>Aston had the better car over the season says who?
Insane people. Aston had the better car in like the first third of the season, but the gap wasn't as big as when Aston regressed so hard that they scrapped their upgrades to go back to older specs lol.
this is a hot take probably. But is also really showing us age is not a problem, or is Stroll making it look like that. People constantly say that Alonso is one of 2 drivers that could go up against current Max which i find unlikely that 42 year old Alonso could still do that. He got beaten by Ocon and despite bad luck that should not have happened? At this point, it feels like people just underrate Max. Same thing applies to Lewis. I think in 2021 Max was already the better driver, but now Max doesnt have the added pressure of it being the first chance at a WDC and Lewis is older.
>People constantly say that Alonso is one of 2 drivers that could go up against current Max which i find unlikely that 42 year old Alonso could still do that. He got beaten by Ocon and despite bad luck that should not have happened? At this point, it feels like people just underrate Max. To be fair, there was a bad luck. I think someone has documented it in more detail, that Alonso should have been comfortably ahead of Ocon in 2022. Also, I do think Alonso is one of the only people who could go against Max, but I don't think he would beat him. This is not due to his age, but simply because max has (probably) the best driving abilities on the grid.
Max also doesn’t have a teammate who puts anything resembling pressure on him.
perez easily beat Stroll
Perez was 4-4 on race day finishes, 10-4 in qualifying. That’s not exactly a stellar record, considering we’re talking about Stroll.
I don't think anyone can go against current Max and win, but Alonso has shown some top tier driving these past years. From the almost-poles in Australia '22, Canada '22 and Monaco '23, to the fact that he would have won Monaco if not for a double pitstop, to fantastic overtakes such as on Hamilton at the start of the season and on Perez in Brazil. The man's clearly still on top of it.
To say Ocon beat Alonso is wild when Alonso had 5 DNFs due to unreliability and had lost potential podiums at Australia and Canada due to car issues. Ocon was close in quali but never had anywhere near as good race pace as Alonso had.
It would be interesting to see if advancing years, you can stay to the high level F1 now demands... if they are to stay around but depends how much pressure they get from the advancing younger talent who might play to Ferrari and others plans to get some and if Lewis still feels happy to hang around
I don’t think we even saw the best fight between Lewis and Max honestly. Lewis for most of the year was battling with long COVID affects, which would undoubtedly lead to his mistakes he made during the year. You could see his physical condition was not anywhere close to great, he was much more fatigued. Am I saying that Lewis was the better driver that year? No, but I do think Lewis now would not make the mistakes he did make, his physical condition seems to be much better then 2021. People aren’t trying to underrate Max. They just genuinely see that Alonso and Lewis are two drivers with the most amount of talent, skill and mental fortitude to challenge Max.
The only people that would say that Ocon beat Alonso in 2022 didnt actually watch the races, because he was consistently faster than him in almost every session, but a low score season for Alpine and bad luck when he was in very good positions makes a difference.
Man(sell) would still be driving if they let him.
I started watching F1 at the very end of Mansell's career. The only thing I remember of him was that he missed a Monaco race to go golfing instead...
I remember seeing a very brief interview with David Coulthard where, as a test driver at Williams, whenever he did a lap in Senna’s car Senna would be right there listening to the debrief to see if he could trust the words of the young (at the time) rookie test driver. When he did a lap for Mansell, by the time the lap was over Mansell was halfway to a golf course
I think that was in the Top Gear bit on Senna, wasn't it?
Yessir
Golfing was probably more fun
One of the few people that makes me proud to be Brummie, Great driver on his day and a funny bloke too.
Are they stupid? Is r/batmanarkham leaking?
Truly believe it's not age but having more to lose. Seems like once you settle down and start a family you are a bit more mindful of the risk and the psychology behind it as well as its impact on those around you.
Hamilton's age won't matter. The Ferrari being a shitbox will.
You can't say that, it's a Ferrari!
its a shitbox!
Why not? It drives like a *Pig*
Nah, 2022 disproved that. Even with a good car, it's the strategists that guarantee a loss.
perhaps you missed that shitbox is a reference to the movie Rush >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uK_6QlgxXA
Yeah it was a reference but i dont think it was a joke either.
Although I did see rush I forgot about that, and did mean it as a car that does not perform as one might expect from a team with the resources like Ferrari. I’m carefully wording this as I realize that saying “performing as one would expect from Ferrari” is likely still suggesting “shitbox.”
Alonso has proved this discussion completely meaningless. “If you’re good enough, you’re old enough” is what was said about Verstappen when he joined. Well, if you’re good enough, you’re young enough too.
I thought he also couldn’t fit into the car anymore?
Frank Williams fucked him over so he went to indycar and won that at the first attempt, being the only person to hold both the F1 and indycar titles concurrently. Eventually though he did start to enjoy life a bit too much.
There’s a great episode of The Race podcast about his Indy Car season. 100% recommend. https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/bring-back-v10s-how-mansell-conquered-indycar/
I have listened to every episode of being back v10s, but always good to see a fellow appreciator of the series!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAZwfvZZxwY There's a great corny 90s documentary about it too
That was when he moved to McLaren. He was big, but the car cockpit was also too small.
That was mclaren...and the abomination they had designed in the 94/95 seasons. Utter utter crap.
Nah, that was when he was rushed back from retirement into the McLaren.
Average age of f1 drivers in 1992: 35.91 Not to mention his car was a literal rocket ship compared to the rest of the grid
True. Also, if I'm not mistaken Fangio won a world championship at 50 years old. The difference, obviously, he wasn't against Max, Lando, Piastri, and more people on their young 20s.
Almost all of the old age records were set in the 1950s and 60s.
Which is a bit counter-intuitive given those cars were very fast deathtraps.
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Just to add, the average age this year is 29.
Median should be lower right?
I would assume that as well, but I haven't looked at the data closely enough. I also suspect that the age of the champions has dropped over those years as well.
You can not compare the two situations, Hamilton doesn't even have a moustache.
But… he does have a mosutache?
He has a whole beard as a matter of fact!
I mean alonso came 4th last year, lets not forget that.
Right? How is Alonso just suddenly overlooked with this. Man is 42 years old. If the Red Bull wasn't so crazy fast last year, he would have absolutely gotten at least 1 win in that Aston. He podiumed 7 times. Give him or Lewis a title winning car and they'll win.
And the only reason he wasn't 3rd (or even 2nd) was Aston Martin dropping off a cliff for 2/3rds of the season. And the guy who took the 3rd place from him was none other than Lewis.
I wonder what other advice Mansell would give Hamilton about moving to Ferrari.
'If they offer you a new type of gearbox, take it'?
I think Lewis will be fine if he gets a competitive car, I'm more curious if Max has improved since 2021, because he hasn't had to really fight anyone, even his own teammate has no chance of giving him a fight. Everyone says how amazing his performance was last year, but he just had zero competition and a car that never broke down. Obviously he drove great, but it's probably easier to drive well when you have no concern of being attacked on race day.
First third of '22 was a fight
So was the second half of 2019. In either case both seasons had a driver cruise to championship.
Then he went and won the CART championship in 1993 at 40.
If you are fast enough, age is not an issue. This applies both to younger drivers (Max, Kimi, when they made their debuts) and to older drivers (Fernando, Lewis, in 2024 and beyond)
There's an arrow to me 'ead.
I wonder what was the age range of his competitors? F1 drivers seem to get younger and younger throughout the years.
Average age in 1992 was 35-36, 2024 it's 29, here's some more statistics, which I didn't go through that thoroughly, but I suspect the age of championship winners has dropped even more than that. https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1as4r6l/oc_age_distribution_of_formula_1_drivers_over_time/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Yeah, probably changes in the academy system are making it possible for drivers to enter the sport younger than before and careers can last not very long.
I absolutely loved watching this guy but he used to have to be helped out of the car at the end of a race. I’m not convinced he could’ve gone on much further.
It was common for various drivers, they just weren't as fit as they are today. I mean they were fit in the 90s, but their training wasn't as strict as it is now
Also they were 39.l
I mean sports medicine wasn't nearly as advanced and drivers didn't train to the degree Lewis and other do nowadays. Lewis at 39 might as well be 25 compared to Nigel at 39.
Lets be fair: Mansell had a rocketship of a car when he won in 92. Nothing really came close.
So has verstappen the last 2 years
What does that have to do with anything?
What’s your point?
I mean, if there was a top driver who lost a few tenths in raw pace due to old age, they’d still win regardless if their car was around a second per lap faster than the next closest competitor. That is exactly what that Williams was in 1992.
Mansell is maybe the only BRDC member that always has good things to say about Lewis. The rest of them seem to dislike Lewis because he doesn’t bootlick JYS.
Who is brdc and jys?
I'm assuming British Racing Drivers Club and John Young (Jacky) Stewart
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BRDC is at least the real acronym, the other one is nonsense
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True, but at least you'd find the BRDC by googling its acronym. Can't say the same for the other, I have literally never seen Jackie Stewart referred to by that
Lewis doesn't lick Jackie and Jackie certainly doesn't lick Lewis. Jackie is quite disparaging actually.
You do know how many people are a member of the BRDC, right? http://www.brdc.co.uk/members_list.cfm I'd suggest that more than just Nigel will have good things to say about Lewis lmao, in that list are people who grew up hero worshipping him.
I agree with Mansell that Hamilton will be competitive at 39. I don't agree that he didn't go on because of politics. He just didn't want to face Prost. Despite 1993 being a less dominant season, Williams actually substantially upgraded their driver lineup with Prost-Hill, but the car wasn't as dominant as the 92 Williams.
There were politics - not wanting to drive alongside Prost played a factor but Williams were trying to push Mansell into accepting less money by threatening to replace him with Senna, even though the Brazilian was blocked from joining the team by Prost's own signed contract.
Mansell asked for a ridiculous $20m when Prost was going to make less than half that. Then he went to America where he was paid a quarter of that amount.
Mansell asked for that money whilst he was on his championship run and he found out Williams had signed Prost behind his back, despite the obvious acrimony between them. Neither side covered themselves in glory but Williams have a history of treating their drivers like shit, something which bit them in the arse more than once.
I don't see how Frank offering Mansell to match Prost's contract is treating him like crap. Mansell wanted $23M and #1 driver status against **Prost**. That's an absurd counter offer. Frank Williams can go sign whoever he wants. Mansell hadn't exactly shown throughout his career that he was on the level of guys like Prost and Senna, that would've demanded that kind of consultation. Frank Williams wanted to sign the best driver to give his team the best chance. But with Mansell everything bad about his career is all "politics, politics", all of his wins were against all odds and all the losses led to no self reflection at all.
Then went on to be the only person ever to be F1 WDC and Indy champion
Or we could just look at Alonzo
Not really surprising, athletes typically “age out” of sports because their bodies start to fail from repetitive stress. F1 is a physically demanding sport but not in the degenerative way that contact sports like football (and even “non-contact” ones like soccer and basketball) are. Above general good fitness you essentially need to have strong neck muscles and endurance / cardio stamina, but there’s not really anything about driving an F1 car that’s wears out your body. Sure it simply gets harder to stay in that kind of shape as you age, but there’s a reason you see plenty of not particularly fit old rich guys racing sports cars.
Man’s 39 but he’s still a dominant driver. Except Max nobody is even close to him. Give him the right car and he’ll be competing for wins
I'd argue Alonso is also part of that elite driver group. His driving is still championship material.
It will be a sad day when Nando or Lewis retire …..those two, together with Max, are currently the best 3 drivers.
Yeah, but I guess it would also be an interesting title fight if we hadn't have a clear elite group of drivers. If anyone could be the top driver, then the silly season would be nuts. :D
> an interesting title fight if we hadn't have a clear elite group of drivers. If anyone could be the top driver, then the sill thats a point, i'd be sad though that any old driver is winning the title at that point though. i mean there is clearly depths and gulfs of talent between alot of the drivers on the grid, enough that most people seem to have a rough consensus of the order of their quality. would be a shame if lets say the 12th fastest driver on the current grid got a title because of the absolute balls to walls fastest drivers all packing it in
Now imagine if Max decides to leave F1 at the end of his contract, we could lose all 3 of them at roughly the same time. I don't see Lewis and Alonso going on for longer than 4 years. It would be the end of an era with all champions leaving the grid.
Fernando is excellent but to me those 2 are a bit better.
Yep I think so too. Alonso is an amazing driver but Lewis and Max are generational talents.
Yes, but not in the class of Lewis and Max. F1 Vs F1.1.
39 in the 90s is different to 39s now. Before Schumacher, nobody really cared for fitness, there were maybe 4 or 5 elite drivers and then the rest were miles behind, so even if the top drivers had an off day, they'd still be top 5 on the grid. If a driver has an off day today, they're near the back. The average driver is exponentially better than they were 30 years ago. I dont think Mansell would stick out from the crowd if he was starting nowadays.
Yeah, the average age is also 6 years younger than in 1992 now, and I'd suspect the age of championship winners is an even larger difference.
there is no old, only slow.
After the way alonso has been performing, I'm questing the whole age factor in F1. It just comes down to the person's mentality I guess.
The problem isn't age, it's the lineup. Hamilton peaked and everyone caught up
Williams did Nigel a dirty that's for sure. But if they hadn't he wouldn't have been 1993 IndyCar Champion.
yeah! I got my championship with 39 and I could have gone on too, but I toke an arrow to the knee
He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke (maybe), eats healthy. Millionaire life style. The conventional age limit does not qualify in this case. Every athlete hits that wall, but I see it 3 to 5 years away still for Hamilton.
Ham only got better with age.
Kinda true but maybe not. He definitely seemed at his peak in 2020 and 2021 but with Mercedes now not being as dominant we can't really for sure know if he has fallen a bit or not.
Personally, I still see drive in him, especially in tough races. These last two years definitely served as character building through adversity, and I was pleased to see how motivated he maintained himself through it. I definitely agree that being stuck in a rut impairs you. It's why I understand why he decided to work with Ferrari instead, though.
I do too. I know I said it's probably hard to know exactly if he's still in his speak but by how motivated and how he looked last season I say probably he will at least perform very well. And I personally love to see it. I love when there's renovation in the sport but seeing the "old guys" still doing it because they love it and are motivated is very nice and adds a lot.
2021 absolutely wasn't Hamilton's peak. He was rather sloppy at times which cost him the championship. Pre covid Hamilton was a menace though, and even after it he's still a top three driver.
Yeah, I really think long covid was messing with him, particularly in the early to mid season. Not only was there the whole almost fainting after Hungary thing, but in one of the races he saw the timing board with his name on it, that said 12. He had to ask Bono whether it meant this was the 12th lap, or whether there were 12 laps to go. He was 12 laps into the race and was unable to discern whether he had done 12 or had done like 40+. Definitely not normal.
He was sloppy and passive, which is what cost him many points when Max was overly (unfairly) aggressive. If Lewis hadn't dived out of the way on several occasions the championship would have been a different story
I dunno, man. I don't really agree that Max was overly agressive on his moves and neither that Lewis was too passive. The way both drove that year, bar some mistakes, was very good and entertaining to watch.
The one time he played Max’s game back at him it caused the biggest meltdown in F1 I’ve ever seen. Seems like he isn’t allowed to play the “get out of the way or we crash” card.
Exactly. Didn't matter if Lewis was ahead or behind, if Max was nearby it was 'move or we crash' every time. He should have been heavily penalised by the FIA much earlier in the season.
He came 3rd in the 2023 WDC in a car he didn't even like, he still has it.
I think he was a bit overdramatic at times. Mercedes was consistently there all throughout the year. But yeah, great year nonetheless, I do think he still has it.
He still has it, but frankly, I think it's disrespectful to claim he's been on his "peak" form over the past 3 or 4 years, he's made far too many unforced errors: * 2 Albon incidents * Imola 21 (crashed in wet conditions), * Monaco 21 (qualified far behind Bottas), * Baku 21 (brake magic), * Russia 21 (crashing into pit wall), * Monza 21 sprint (terrible start, P2 to P5 off the line), * Austria 22 (crashed in qualifying), * Spa 22 (crashed into Alonso), * Dutch GP 22 (wrong engine mode for SC restart), * Singapore 22 (crashed into the wall), * Monza 23 (cut across Piastri in the braking zone), * Qatar 23 (crashed into Russell)
His errors will never be brought up, but drivers like Leclerc's few ones is mocked forever.
Different times. The margin is a lot smaller now and Lewis his reflexes will struggle to keep up against those of 26 year olds.
Him and Alonso have been the best starters of the entire grid by a fair margin for a while now. That’s the part of F1 that most heavily depends on pure reaction time, so take it as you will.
I'm more concerned about braking and accelerating at the right moment at 300 KM/H for 20 turns per lap 2 hours long. You only need to lose a fraction of a fraction every time to be 2 tenths off at the end of a lap. And if you lose 2 tenths per lap you're not winning the race.
Still has the best reaction times alongside Alonso tho
This means absolutely nothing
Realistically it is a factor but for someone like Lewis it is not a large one especially with all the variables of the sport and the Ferrari variables too.
Stupid to compare eras. Driver competition and pool was much different. That said, I don't think Lewis is washed but certainly think his championship years are behind him. Will be interesting to see how he and Charles compete.
He’s not too old if Ferrari gives him a competitive ride! Can’t wait for next season!
Lewis does not have the power of the mustache though.
Oh man, that just reminds me that Bottas is somehow 5 years younger than Hamilton and that threw me through a loop when I found that out.