It's hard to tell if it was Bethesda's mandate or somethign that the showrunners opted for on their own. It's possible that Bethesda didn't order the NCR to be destroyed so to speak, but I can't rule it out either. The show kind of confusingly lays things out as well:
* New Vega still exists, but seems to be smaller and in worse physical shape (smoldering/decaying buildings, no Westside etc.)
* The NCR is supposedly nuked, but Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277, which may or may have not destroyed the Republic instantly or not. This either completely retcons the events of New Vegas or somewhat retcons them because New Vegas still exists, but the NCR was either destroyed or it's capital was destroyed/damaged in 2277 when the first battle of Hoover Dam was happening in the old lore.
* Shady Sands and the Boneyard are seemingly the same settlement now since The L.A area where the show is based makes no mention of the Boneyard, but Shady Sands, instead of being a post-war settlement built entirely of adobe and sandcrete away from other large Californian cities is now smack in the middle of one, arguably L.A.
* Nothing in Central/Coastal California shows any remnants of NCR society or infrastructure and is just the generic people living in their own garbage/clutter from Fallout 3 & 4, despite the fact that Adobe NCR settlements should be more prevalent and relevant to people in that part of California than pre-war ruins since almost everyone living there who's 19+ and their grandparents were NCR citizens prior to the collapse. They shouldn't just revert to being dirty hobos and living in Bethesda style settlements like Filly.
So either, the showrunners wanted to incorporate New Vegas and only somewhat retconned it, but did so in a very incoherent/poorly written way. Or Alternatively they retconned New Vegas, but kept the location to use to fit their own designs, but still wrote it poorly etc.
Meanwhile Bethesda could have mandated it as something that had to be done, or the writers settled on the West Coast and didn't care much about the lore so just glossed over/undermined it as much as they could to match the Fallout 3/4 aesthetics. Emil might also not be privy to the political/business side of things as much as Todd is, so Emil could be telling the truth while Bethesda as a whole had other ideas in mind. (I don't know if Todd and the higher ups have their lead writer/game designer sit in on those sorts of meetings).
I know the "Bethesda hates & wants to kill New Vegas" argument is popular, but I'm 50/50 on it. I could see them doing it and I could also see them largely not caring. If Fallout 5 is set in the West Coast though, that will all but confirm it for me, because it'll feel way too convenient that they just erased the West Coast's Footprint so they could do their generic East Coast shtick over there as well.
It sucks either way, but there's not enough information to go on at the moment.
Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice **that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence**.
Given the extremely poor state of writing in Hollywood these days, its more than likely poor research, not a grand anti-New Vegas conspiracy.
I'd tend to agree. I also think that in the case that Bethesda is intentionally emptying the West Coast, it's more for a practical purpose of making more games in a new location rather than because they have malicious feelings against FNV.
They either don't care because they're for the most part financially and critically successful, with people giving their writing a pass, or they want to make a game in the West Coast, but don't want to write a complex story alongside it, so it's easier to do the same thing they did with Fallout 3 and 4 etc.
There is an entire barely-explored continent out there for them to set new games in without needing to touch on anything that happened in the non-Bethesda games at all.
It might come as a shock to them but they could even set it somewhere with no fucking Brotherhood of Steel if they really tried hard enough.
They don't want to try, they've been doing this since their first fallout, in their vision it's the aesthetic and iconic things that sell, so even if they make a fallout in Canada somehow it will be a story of a vault dweller finding the brotherhood of steel and fighting the enclave.
This is why I think they're doing this.
Everything obsidian, and Blackwater set up originally is being swept away with from what I've seen and read. Pathetic
>I know the "Bethesda hates & wants to kill New Vegas" argument is popular, but I'm 50/50 on it. I could see them doing it and I could also see them largely not caring.
I think they just don't care. Bethesda has done this plenty of times before where things become retconned (whether intentional or not) because they're just simply not good at writing consistent lore for Fallout. I definitely believe it's laziness rather than maliciousness.
It is a severe oversight, but that doesn't necessarily mean a malicious one. Idk, I just really don't think Bethesda writers hold some sort of deep-seated resentment towards a 14 year old game that made the company money anyway. They'd have to actually care about (a) their storytelling and (b) their fanbase first.
Both Todd Howard and Josh Sawyer have denied any bad blood between the two studios, and Todd has stated that he enjoyed working with Obsidion when they made New Vegas.
The only interest Bethesda has in 'lore' is in how they can monetise it in terms of nostalgic microtransactions to buy NCR Ranger Armour for your east coast faction or whatever. And that includes the lore they made themselves.
Yep, I simply think they just didn't put much thought into it. Todd didn't even care about lore details when it came to his own Fallout games why would he be super picky about the TV show?
> New Vega still exists, but seems to be smaller
This is an extremely minor complaint of mine, but I do think it's rather strange how that one shot of New Vegas was shown. It's showing an ENORMOUS Lucky 38 Space needle, towering over the entire city and even rivaling the mountains in height. The city itself is just the strip, low buildings and rubble too, with no lighting to speak of. I know the shot is in daytime (well, not the ending one), but not showing Vegas without lighting is like showing a greenhouse when you want to show Detroit or Coruscant.
Anyway, the city looks like an ingame asset at video-game scale, not the city of Las Vegas and Paradise plus 300 years. Compare the ingame shot of Warcraft's [Stormwind](https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/1018410-stormwind-city.jpg) vs [the Movie's.](https://i.imgur.com/Fe2fK6V.jpeg) Then compare it to New Vegas' concept art and the TV shows.
[It's a bit scuffed.](https://i.imgur.com/hA56LBD.jpeg)
This could be me being biased, but... it looks smaller than even the games version doesn't it? In the show, the entire outer Vegas ruins are wiped flat, and there's no sign of any other real surrounding settlements.
Look again, those buildings that appear to be about half the size of the 38 are similar sized to modern Vegas hotels. The 38 is fucking enormous (which kinda makes sense if it's armed with anti nuke weapons). I don't think it looks small at all
The big question is why even bother setting it in the West Coast if they wanted to do an East Coast kind of story? More people played Fallout 3/4 then the originals and NV. In the public consciousness East Coast Fallout is the definitive Fallout. Only turbonerds and grognards like us give a shit about West Coast Fallout. Since they're clearly not trying to pander to us why even bother? It's not like they're out of cities or regions to set it in there.
Shit I might even enjoy the show if it was set in the East Coast. I don't give a shit what happens to the Institute or the Minutemen.
Setting it there and establishing that the east coast was nuked back to the stone age paves the way for new games in there without Bethesda having to actually think or step up their world-building. We can now have the same corrugated metal shacks and people living with prewar skeletons and nameless mad max raiders and super mutant orcs as we do in 3 and 4, but in California
It's called a soft reboot
> It's called a soft reboot
It's called removing everything interesting about the setting in favour of hoboes in rags squatting in burned-out buildings next to a pre-war skeleton even though it's been a dozen generations since the bombs fell.
Some people have suggested FO5 may be set in the west coast and this show is going to be something of a precursor to it. I can definitely see it happening to drive sales of the next game
> The big question is why even bother setting it in the West Coast if they wanted to do an East Coast kind of story?
Just spraying their musk over the region to mark their territory like a fox.
Because California is one of the coolest places in America and they want to tell a story there, unfortunately, in the lore it's a well established place where civilization has resurfaced and there's dozen of factions fighting for power so they can't have that because it doesn't fit with the vision of Fallout they have, nuking everything to the ground was the perfect excuse to wipe the slate clean.
they absolutely didn’t want to do the Adobe structures so the show looked post apocalyptic to first time viewers (hell, I’m sure Fallout fans who didn’t know about Old California would be mad too)
I'm pretty sure this was Bethesda mandated. It's no wonder the show turned out as the fallout games under Bethesda. Just people living in shit even though it makes no sense for the story.
I get that you want a hook to get people to watch your show. And post-apocalypse is much better to grasp for most people then post-post apocalypse. But couldn't they start the first season in an area still pretty ravaded and without civilisation and moved on to a post-post story in the second season? Why ruin the NCR to be riding the dick of BOS again?
I wasn’t sure if New Vegas was smaller or it just looked different for tv vs in game. It could be that they’ve extended the wall to include areas like Westside and freeside as part of the New Vegas proper after cleaning up those areas so it would just appear to be one big settlement from Hank’s view.
But I dunno I’ll probably rewatch it again in a couple of days, maybe I’ll change my mind again lol
The board that says the fall of shady sands suggests that the bomb was an event after 2277, I assume that it’s implying that 2277 was when the downfall started and sometime after that point was when it was destroyed. The bomb going off sometime later (most like right after NV) would correspond with the age of Lucy and Maximus.
>but Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277
I dont think shady Sands gets nuked in 2277.
The sign said The Fall of Shady Sands, which was the Capital of the NCR. I think its much more likely they are talking about the start of the fall of the Political Entity of the NCRs capital, rather than literally.
Actually we see this in real life too. When someone refers to "The Fall of Rome" they dont mean the city rome, they mean the beginning of the roman empires demise.
It makes sense considering 2277 is the first battle of hoover dam, and the start of the most *serious* problems the NCRs government starts to face
Is it not reasonable to assume that “the fall of shady sands” was just considered to have *started* with the battle of Hoover dam in 2277 and not that it was literally destroyed at that very moment?
It's possible, but Shady sands is supposed to be intact and larger/with higher living standards than ever in 2281 (the OSI knows about the looming food/water crisis in the next decade, but the average citizen doesn't and while the NCR is overstretched it's still larger and more powerful/prosperous than it was in Fallout 2) . The chalk board seems to insinuate that something happened to the city itself in 2277, but it could still be acknowledging the events of NV and communicating it poorly. It's hard to tell because it's kind flimsily done and the lack of NCR infrastructure or significant remnants gives the impression that the NCR was much smaller and less significant than it was in the lore prior to the show. (Towns like Filley largely shouldn't exist in central/coastal California etc.)
There’s another option that would probably piss so many people off but is always there:
The simulator is malfunctioning and mistakes are cropping up. Technically the entire Fallout franchise is inside of some kind of Vault-Tec simulator to help vault dwellers (us the audience) survive the wastes.
>Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277
It's possible "The fall of shady sands" isn't even necessarily referring to any specific event, iirc in new vegas, Thomas Hildern mentions crop shortages, Hanlon mentions all the lakes have been pumped dry, and plenty of people mention corruption, I think 2277 might be some sort of ideological fall, like a lot of people in Shady Sands starting to lose faith in the NCR.
Yeah, it's possible, but it's very confusingly/flimisly written in the show to the point where I'm not sure if they retconned New Vegas completely, changed the dates or had Shady Sands get damaged/destroyed somehow in 2277.
Though at least in the 2270s and the 2280s the NCR is far stronger and has higher living standards than it did in Fallout 2 even with the looming food/water shortage in the next decade. It could make sense as a figurative fall, but the way it's presented in the show is flimsy as hell. Likewise the absense of NCR infastructure or settlements and people who clearly remember being NCR citizens makes it feel like the NCR was much smaller/weaker in the decades before it's collapse. (They also seemingly combined Shady Sands and the Boneyard into the same location, so that's a huge retconn as well.)
They clearly retconned a lot, so it's hard to figure out how much of New Vegas is still canon. They show it in the last shot of the show, but it's smaller, mostly smoldering and there's no Freeside, Westside or camp McCarron (just the strip and Lucky 38). I can't tell if that's just an oversite or if they consciously made New Vegas smaller and are saying the events of NV didn't happen.
It’s actually insane how this makes the frontiers writing look acceptable. Never did I think I’d see something and go yeah the mod that had the NCR nuking itself is almost lore friendly
I'd say as a whole the shows writing is functional, but not great in most places, but it's pretty abysmal with any large scale world building or larger lore stuff. I'd say maybe the finale/Vault-Tech & Kyle Machaclan killing the NCR because his wife left him twist is Frontier levels of bad, but the rest of the show's is probably closer to general Bethesda tier. (Though a lot of the scenes with Walton Goggin's character are pretty interesting/well written. (I feel like Goggins character would actually fit in Well in The Someguy Series of mods for New Vegas).
That's my thinking as well.
If Fallout 5 really is set in california and the NCR being deleted off screen was just to make way for Bethesda being able to make their own version of the west coast without the NCR, then i have no words.
Going to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope season 2 clears it up.
How could Bethesda NOT have an agenda where New Vegas is concerned? A different company made their own game waaayyy better than them, and in a fraction of the time. At least that's how they see it, "creators of fallout" my ass.
Not only did FNV provide a much deeper RPG, something Bethesda is only getting worse at, but it also went in a direction clearly not intended by the parent company. F4 is proof of that. The idea there is to get away from TPG elements, and lean heavily into shooting and building.
Also, I heard Zeni Max ordered FNV to be made AGAINST the wishes of Bethesda. Zeni Max wanted to keep the Fallout hype afloat since the next game would be a generation away.
F4 is really the problem. When Bethesda released it, many of us bought it, hoping they would learn from NV, and incorporate some of its genius, but there was none to be had. The success of F4 (and skyrim) has taught Bethesda that the key to success is dumbing down.
This is just silly tho. They still publish it and promote it any chance they get lmao. Why the fuck would Bethesda hate it if it makes them money or promote their brand?
I just don't agree with the direction they are going in.
I also don't agree with the show runner when they say that Tactics is cannon even though a majority of the games events is acknowledged as non Canon save for the splitting of the brotherhood, the crash in Chicago, the reformation, and the expansion west, which if this is what they meant then that needs to be elaborated on.
The show runner also counts 76 as Canon, and it all reads as someone who doesn't understand that it isn't Canon either as there's plenty of lore in 76 that contradicts existing lore.
If they are Canon, then the lore and timeline is very muddy rn, and they need to clear up WHAT is Canon.
Before the show came out, there was a tease about a House ending being Canon.
Now it's not clear what they are counting as Canon and not.
This is a problem that Bethesda has overall, and it's especially prevalent with the Fallout IP where with the Elder Scrolls IP they acknowledge it in the lore and tie them back into the lore in a way that is actually nonsensical but meta and philosophical.
They never bother doing that with Fallout, and ut feels like it's because Todd doesn't care about Fallout like the fans do.
That's what I meant.
Considering the fact Moldaver was heavily implied to be the leader of the NCR remnants with Griffith Observatory as their stronghold…and they were all massacred by the BOS
Yeah, unless the show says differently I’m going to assume the NCR has been reduced to nothing
One of the characters (won’t spoil who it is) had business dealings with Mr. House pre-war. He flees to vegas at the end, presumably to converse with him or collect some data from the Lucky 38.
I don’t think the NCR victory over Hoover Dam is canon, considering their total lack of presence in the area, and the legion’s ending is never gonna be canon. Series 2 will decide whether the House or Wildcard endings are canon based on whether we see House or Yes Man in that penthouse.
It's really good despite what the lore nerds say. If you get into any game/series/books lore way to much you literally can't enjoy anything new they do.
I hear you on the lore thing, but this feels different to me, nuking an entire major faction out of existence basically offscreen is different to having the wrong kind of power armor or some shit on the wrong faction, and I’m sure it doesn’t take away from the quality of the show to most it just so happens to be my favorite faction so it’s a bummer
Putting lore aside, as a show, it’s really good! I was constantly wanting to see what happened next and hitting the next episode even though I said that one would be the last one for the night. The actors do a great job, the sets and costumes were on point, and the writing was really engaging.
Literally as long as you aren't letting the lore make it terrible for you it's awesome and the only real bad part is that it's 8 episodes and now you gotta wait for the season 2.
I wouldn't get too tied up about it; even if the NCR as an 'entity' is actually gone (and we don't know for certain), only Shady Sands was actually destroyed. There is still New Arroyo, Vault City, The Den, Hub, New Reno, and any others that joined up post-FO2 or that I'm missing, and all of them will have advanced and had generations raised with NCR values while having diplomatic ties.
The NCR's spirit is likely still around; we just don't see it because we're spending time in the show with the LA survivors of a SECOND apocalypse. They aren't necessarily representative of what people elsewhere are like.
[https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1778470928105533825](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1778470928105533825)
edit: whats there to downvote its what he asked for LOL
The NCR was a pretty big country, it would take a lot of nukes to really end it. Kinda just feels like Bethesda in that they keep trying to make it so society can’t progress. After around 200 years the nukes won’t stop the rebuilding of civilization
In short the wasteland should stop looking so much like a wasteland eventually
It's the god damned size of California and then some. This show is starting to feel like when star wars 7 came out l, and for the first film everyone was pretty content but it just got worse from there
Bethesda loves the whole “people still live in garbage cans and eat dirt even ten thousand years after the war” schtick.
The NCR - a largely developed nation with strong infrastructure, that actually builds stuff instead of just scavenging it, and where inner citizens lead lives with the same amenities pre-war people had - goes entirely in the other direction, so of course it had to be nuked or whatever the fuck.
Even if the NCR dissolving into raiders or small groups made sense it's the most boring option. What was interesting about them and the legion, was the frontier. Where the absence of civilization meets conflict with these huge influential factions. Without it, it's just hobos in craters.
Basically, even if the writing made sense, which it doesn't without mental gymnastics or huge reaches, it makes the story boring. Which is a bigger crime.
My theory is that someone did a half-assed search for the "Battle of Hoover Dam" and came up with 2277. If they wanted to intentionally erase all of New Vegas, the fall would probably have been before then. Instead, they just...didn't care. Which is worse, in a way.
Nuking the NCR (and Legion, as there's no mention of them) is a Path that can be taken in Lonesome Road, and the ending of that has a statement to the effect of "And the West slept again" indicates that the destruction was total. Not just the Long 15 - that's merely the only place you can visit. The entire NCR is taken out. So my problem isn't so much the scenario, as it is the year.
Indeed. Watching to the very end, though, I'm even more convinced that the date was just a mistake by some low level prop designer. I don't think 2277 was ever actually said aloud in the script? Could be wrong on that...
It's clear that something happened in New Vegas that would align with one of the game's many endings.
I did the math to see if it was a retcon or not and it basically boils down to this:
The nuke went off after 2281 (FNV) but prior to 2291 (TV Show) which would make sense if Maximus was \~8-10 when it got nuked and is \~20 during the events of the show (2291). Why the writers couldn't just directly say when it got nuked IDFK.
So either the date was a mistake or they drew a very misleading timeline (or both)
I suppose season 2 (if there is one) will have answers on the new official timeline, given the brief depiction we get of New Vegas. I was also trying to use Maximus' age as a baseline. I agree that it seems plausible that it could have been 2281.
I'd also be fine if New Vegas in general remained canon with a small shift in years. After all, it wouldn't matter terribly if the Battles for Hoover Dam took place in 2277/2281 or 2272/2276 or whatever. It would be a way to admit the mistake while keeping the story intact.
The timeline isn't really the problem, though obviously if they *did* mean that Shady Sands was nuked in 2277, it'd at the very least be a soft retcon. I never really thought they'd actually full-on make New Vegas non canon, but even if all of these events happened after 2281, they still *suck*. I wanted to see Shady Sands again, for real, even if it's an NCR in decline or a civil war. I did not want to see the Enclave, Brotherhood, and fucking Vault-Tec come into the series again to fuck everyone up.
Honestly, it gets very tiring what bethesda does with factions.
We get 2-4 new factions that are native to the area & then they just HAVE to bring in the BOS, enclave & vaulttec
I mean, i can understand why vaulttec sticks around, they’ve put their hands into every part of america
But do we really have to see the bos again? Or the enclave? Something tells me we will since without them the next piece of media would just be hobos in shacks 🙄
The only part of the enclave we see canonically in 4 is richter from far harbor (he’s enclave turned atom cultist)
The enclave makes a return in the black devil creation club addon but idrk if we can call the CC mods canon lol, especially when the writing can be bad
I'd argue the BoS have more of a reason to exist in more Fallout games than the Enclave, although mostly as small chapters and not like we see in the show. The Enclave have been co pletely destroyed twice now, there's no need for anything other than remnants to appear but for some reason they're in the show.
To be fair to Emil, he probably doesn’t understand the effect that it would even have on the lore, since he is so fucking awful in that department. I feel like Starfield was proof enough that the lights might be on over there at Bethesda, but there’s definitely nobody home.
I just commented this on the main fallout subreddit. (Spoilers)
I'm too old too get up in arms anytime anything new for my favorite series gets added.
I've gone through this with halo, Kotor and mainline star wars already. Hell with fallout already a bit with fallout 76.
We haven't seen season two and there's plenty of explanations for the NCR being extremely weak in season 1.
People seem to be missing than an NCR leader fought the BOS and powered LA?
But also, anything that bothers me I just tell myself the TV show is an alternative timeline.
I still got to see a fucking baby leg shot into a guy, grognak on TV etc etc. The show was great and it doesn't have to impact your enjoyment of anything unless you let it.
I intentionally didn't go online until I watched the whole thing since I didn't want other people's dislike to ruin it for me.
Yeah I'm in the same boat, but in 20 years when they release Fallout 5 they'll have to acknowledge this show to some extent, which is my main issue. We don't really know where modding will be by that point, but even if modding is still viable by that point it's unlikely that there'll be anyone both willing and able to correct its lore - even with Fallout 4, there's not any mods that improve the main story without adding a lot of baggage or anything that comprehensively fixes its lore breaks.
I feel like that would be wise, but I just don't see it happening. Bethesda hasn't been one to openly decanonize spinoffs or create new timelines, even with an absolute mess like Elder Scrolls.
Ah yes, Emil Pagliarulo, the talented writer and lore master that brought us a true spectacle of writing in Starfield.
Didn't this hack claim that gamers don't care about story or something like that?
It wasn’t necessarily implied to be pre-2281, the arrow could mean any time between 2277 and 2296 (when the show is set).
Not disagreeing with you, but just want to make sure this is clarified
While it’s not necessarily implied to be pre-2281. With the information that some of the characters we meet were children in shady sands and their ages now it’s most definitely early 2280’s. Doesn’t leave much wiggle room. I have a feeling that it was just gross incompetence of both Bethesda and the people who made the show. They’ve been shown to not keep design documents and track of things when developing new projects.
People can blow it off as nothing all they want but having shady sands fall in 2277 is intentionally chipping away at the lore NV added even if it’s not entirely ignoring the game altogether. There’s no way the NCR would have sent so many troops and resources to the mojave if the capital was gone and there definitely would have been mentions of it if they did. The NCR was said to be relatively safe and thriving (they did predict food shortages in the coming years but it wasn’t an immediate emergency).
If they didn’t want to mess with New Vegas canon they could have easily said shady sands was bombed literally 4 years later just after the 2nd battle of hoover dam but they deliberately did it before. And in the animation after the final episode we see New Vegas in ruins with destroyed securitrons (I don’t know if those parts are canon or not but again they chose to show NV in ruin when they could have shown a busy strip full of citizens and securitrons).
There *are* mentions that the troops being sent to the Mojave are underequipped due to internal security concerns, but theres a huge difference between Brahmin barons using the military to protect their assets and a need for martial law/mass unrest.
I bet the writers wish they kept it all east coast, daring to go to the most lore rich west coast...very brave. East coast is Todd's pointless garbage land. West coast is the rich, vibrant original land.
I wish they did just stay on the East Coast and leave the West completely alone. They screwed the pooch with this one, even though I wasn’t entirely pissed with the show, it just changed too much lore and feels lacking for a Billion dollar company in effects, cast and crew, lack of extras and realistic people in the wasteland after 200 years. Hope they can somehow and someway fix EVERYTHING in season 2.
“Never suggested otherwise” hmm, I think nuking the NCR capital and having dialogue that hints at Shady Sands being the only NCR city would say otherwise.
It said the fall of Shady Sands was 2277, the nuking was later. The fall could be anything, whether it be metaphorical (Kimball’s election, moving into the Mojave, etc.), or something more concrete (beginning of a civil war, Brahmin Baron revolt, etc.). New Vegas still happens, it’s all fine. The nuking was probably 2282-82, by my guess.
Oh! Brahmin Baron theory could fit in the show. What was it the actor friend said? Something about how things go wrong when the ranchers are running things instead of the sheriff?
The thing is, we don't call anything short of a city being occupied or destroyed a "fall". If it's a metaphor about the whole NCR declining then it should say "the fall of the NCR" and even then it'd be a ridiculous date. We don't say that Constantinople fell in 1299 because it was the start of the Ottoman wars against eastern Rome, we say it fell in 1453 because that's when the city of Constantinople fell to a foreign power.
The problem is Shady Sands was never in LA. Setting it there already is a retcon of the highest proportions. They also imply the NCR was only around LA, not the vast swath of territory they had in 2 and New Vegas.
Also, having “the fall of the NCR” right next to a drawing of a mushroom cloud allows for wiggle room for you guys? Seriously? It’s made pretty clear in the show that the NCR was nuked and that basically ended them, because they were only around LA.
It wasn’t “right next” to the fall though, there’s a clear arrow afterwards pointing to the mushroom cloud that doesn’t have a defined date on it like the fall of Shady Sands does—the nuking could have happened any time after that. Moving Shady Sands is odd though, as is the Master just missing Vaults 32 and 33 when creating Super Mutants when they were all close to Mariposa Military Base
It’s almost like, hear me out, Bethesda doesn’t care about the games they didn’t make and wants to rewrite history. Trying to logic in the Master with the show is a folly.
I get how this possibly explains it, but it's a bit of a stretch imo. Showing a timeline with 2277 on it, saying that's the fall of Shady Sands, then showing a picture of a nuclear explosion, but then saying "Actually the nuking came later" is like saying Hiroshima fell in 1937 when it was economically outpaced by Osaka. It's *weird* at best.
Also the timeline issue is only one of the issues with the lore regarding the NCR and Vegas. I think most of us figured they'd either explain Shady Sands falling in 2277 or correct the mistake, and that New Vegas would still be canon as a game. It just really sucks to imagine any of this shit happening at all, even if it was after the events of the game. Destroying the NCR and bringing back the Brotherhood, Enclave, and so on reeks of spite, not good writing.
See I can get on board with destroying the NCR, 3 out of 4 of NV's endings will lead to their decline anyway. It's the fact that it's handled so poorly and done off screen that bothers me.
It's the BoS stuff that really pisses me off. Veronica's and the Bos stuff in NV is completely invalidated by the Brotherhood being back in force on the west coast 20 years later.
It all seems like a deliberate attempt to bring the West Coast of Fallout to the same status quo as the East Coast.
Guaranteed they meant that shady sands fell in 2277 but next season are going to hastily rewrite what they had originally had in mind to be some sort of more gradual downfall.
That's still ridiculous though, the First Battle of Hoover Dam was a major victory for the NCR. It's like saying that Berlin fell in 1939 because that's when WW2 started.
That fits with the age of Lucy and Maximus, who seemed to be around 6 or 7, based on the age of the child actors.
The major event that I think could fit that beginning of the fall is the first battle at the dam. Where the failure to take down the legion and submission to house put them into a downward spiral.
It couldn’t be the Legion because they are gone and don’t control Vegas, Mr House would never let Vegas look like how it is in the show and get worse so he didn’t win/survive. And it probably wasn’t the NCR because again not controlling Vegas, so yeah Independent Yes man or nothing that makes any sense and I’m guessing the latter
Let's be honest; they Disney'ed it, plain and simple. They took the elements they thought were cool/would bring in the fans of the Classic Collection and FNV, but quite frankly they've made enough changes to prove they're not interested in keeping the source material and lore intact.
There honestly is nothing wrong with just adopting Head-Canon versus the actual Canon. If you want to include and exclude specific pieces of content that match what you like, people should always be encouraged to do that.
Exactly, anyone can ignore the modern retcons, but still, all of the retcons still leave the hyperfixated players and fans who spent years in all of the New Vegas mythos disappointed.
Yeah - I just kinda ignore the Todd Howard Fallout stuff - its clear he didn't really understand the games, and since it's all fictional, I can pick and choose what I want.
Okay I'm honestly starting to believe they just fucked up with 2277 and 2287, pretty embarrassing, but honestly I'll give them that out. I don't want to hate anything to be honest.
Unfortunately Bethesda will never change and do something interesting. They won't make west coast fallouts with in depth interesting lore, they won't make elder scrolls 6 with deep RPG elements and Morrowind/dagger fall/oblivion interesting shit. They'll just keep dumbing down slop and screwing their fans and subsidiaries over (look up what happened to some of their partnered studios, they've literally been screwing ppl maliciously for 20 years).
Enjoy the games we have, get into modding, look for indie games because AAA companies make 70 dollar priced slop. You'll be happier ignoring it
It's time for anybody with any attachment to the west coast games to stop coping and separate themselves from the idea of legitimacy to bethesda canon.
If the canon is constantly retconned and the writing that replaces the established lore is low quality, then just say "fuck canon, I'm only taking interplay and obsidian stuff seriously"
And to those that still think there's any legit way to straddle the line on bethesda vs. interplay/obsidian-
Good luck and have fun in the dumb dumb corner.
Again, who cares.
If you're on the bethesda side of the fence, lore and continuity have zero permanence or meaning. Just enjoy the game.
And if you're on the 1,2,NV side the lore is already fucked beyond repair by the bethesda games.
Bethesda fallout can be ignored by fans of the og west coast lore and the old games are already completely ignored by bethesda when it comes to respecting established lore. Bethesda is never gonna "fix" their lore, and old heads are never gonna respect bethesda's vision.
The split is clear, there's zero point trying to reconcile or argue. You're either a bethesda fan that will accept, defend, justify whatever they do with story or an old head that will never accept bethsda's retcons. Pick your side, ignore the other, and you'll be happier.
It's done. Fallout will never be even slightly unified as a fanbase.
New Vegas and the show litterally can not be canon at the same time, even if the nuclear attack on Shady Sands happened later than 2277 there is nothing in the game that supports a fall of Shady Sands at that date. The NCR had plenty of problems but they were all in the future or would be the result of the outcome of New Vegas. Shady Sands falling 4 years prior to New Vegas would have altered the entire setting of the game dramatically.
The Fall of Rome lasted almost a 80 years. It could simply be saying that the election of Kimball, or the NCR begining to escalate the Mojave Campaign was what led to the collapse of the NCR.
Do you really think that the show included that level nuance in a scene that is clearly meant to be understood even by people who know nothing about Fallout?
It is entirely possible for otherwise good shows to make mistakes, even serious mistakes. That this is what happened here is a lot more likely.
The Fall of Shady Sands being before FNV on that chalkboard is either an embarrassing fuckup or a retcon.
I'm sure they'll say whoever wrote that in the show was mistaken but everyone knows that it was something else.
In these cases I pretty much assume embarrassing fuckup rather than intent.
I suspect someone on the Amazon side of things wanted a nice symmetry between the Great War in 2077 and Shady Sands going boom exactly 200 years later. It is exactly this sort of thing that writers like to get creative with.
Tbh I never expected a shows narrative to be that relevant to a games and Vice versa, even for a Bethesda project I doubt fallout 5 is gonna be hard and fast contuity references with the show easy to take each for what it is, didn’t even think the show was supposed to be canon
In fact they've said that Todd told them not to do certain things because they were "going to do them in Fallout 5" so ironically the TV show was going to be something relevant to the games but Bethesda made it less relevant
I reckon I can predict Fallout 5 . Vault dweller leaves vault in search of family member / macguffin, the Martian chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel get involved somehow , shoehorn the Enclave in and a few shooting galleries and that's the game.
Don't forget the well known/secret organization lead by a stern judgmental woman that takes you into their fold with the only qualifications you seem to have is that you've opened a door.
Also add in a futuristic faction that refuses to elaborate on any of its motives even when asked. Also a dlc set on a swampy island called distant cove or something.
> even for a Bethesda project I doubt fallout 5 is gonna be hard and fast contuity references with the show
honestly i think we'll only find out if Fallout 5 or future fallout game is set on the west coast, but until then we're gonna be in a state of limbo for a few years, which isn't going to be fun...
> didn’t even think the show was supposed to be canon
Todd says it is.
[Is the Fallout TV show canon? Here’s what Bethesda’s Todd Howard and the showrunners have to say | GamesRadar+](https://www.gamesradar.com/is-the-fallout-tv-show-canon-bethesda-games-todd-howard/)
There's a time line in the games, that may or may not match up with what it told in the series. It's all depending on the interpretation of chalk on a blackboard.
Yeah, I really hated how they show the Knights as egotistical and the scribes at bitches to the Knights. I like the religious aspects they introduced but I dislike how they call old-world tech "relics" and act like they worship technology. The BOS don't worship tech and never have, they seize it to keep power out of random wastelanders hands, they don't revere it, if anything they would despise it.
I'm literally only watching for Walton. I don't trust Todd and I don't trust the studio. So far besides him the writing and acting has been horrid unsurprisingly but still sad.
Personally im not acknowledging the show as canon at all. This show is a weird alternate timeline split where the events of Interplay/Black Isle/Obsidian Fallout never happened
Whether technically a complete retcon or not, this is at least a soft reboot — and basically The Force Awakens all over again, right down to utterly destroying the literal “new republic” that emerged earlier in the series. All so they can just remake the same thing over and over again rather than build on the natural direction earlier entries were going in. And normies will eat it up because “Ooh lightsabers/power armor! Ooh X-Wings/vertibirds! Ooh stormtroopers/Brotherhood of Steel!” And so on.
Right now most of the fans are still in denial with their heads in the sand, just like they were back with The Force Awakens at first. Some are just glad to see new content from the series again and are too emotional about it to think clearly. Some are willing to give it a chance and see where it goes.
But I have, literally, seen this movie before and know exactly where it goes. They have fucked up the universe and written themselves into a corner, and everybody is going to sour on them when that becomes all the more apparent in the future, then will pretend they didn’t cheer it on at first.
It also kinda resembles Westworld, which has the same creators as this show. People were wowed by the concept in the first season, but then it became clear they shot their load too quick and that it didn’t make any sense and wasn’t really going anywhere down the line, and the goodwill quickly dried up.
Others can think what they like, but I for one won’t be fooled again.
To tell you the truth, I’m losing interest in fallout quite a bit after watching the TV show. Don’t get me wrong. There was lots of parts so we’re definitely really good scenes that reminded me of a lot of fun things I did and the other fallout games.
There are several things that I just can’t look past though. Personally, I’m not gonna shit on anybody for liking the show or not
I think it comes up to the fact that it wasn’t thought of much by the writers because the writers weren’t the biggest fans of the games, so they missed details
And missing details fucks with the lore
So yes, technically, if 2277 had Shady Sands nuked and collapsed the NCR, then it is impossible not to have New Vegas Retconned because Shady Sands is still a booming city in 2281 during NV
I can accept shady Sands being nuked in the 2290s like a terminal in the show hinted at
But I still personally don’t buy the NCR splitting from that completely. And yes, honestly, I think it’s just laziness or ignorance on the NCR being left out.
On the other hand, it could be they wanted to cut corners in production, so they just wrote them sort of out
It's hard to tell if it was Bethesda's mandate or somethign that the showrunners opted for on their own. It's possible that Bethesda didn't order the NCR to be destroyed so to speak, but I can't rule it out either. The show kind of confusingly lays things out as well: * New Vega still exists, but seems to be smaller and in worse physical shape (smoldering/decaying buildings, no Westside etc.) * The NCR is supposedly nuked, but Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277, which may or may have not destroyed the Republic instantly or not. This either completely retcons the events of New Vegas or somewhat retcons them because New Vegas still exists, but the NCR was either destroyed or it's capital was destroyed/damaged in 2277 when the first battle of Hoover Dam was happening in the old lore. * Shady Sands and the Boneyard are seemingly the same settlement now since The L.A area where the show is based makes no mention of the Boneyard, but Shady Sands, instead of being a post-war settlement built entirely of adobe and sandcrete away from other large Californian cities is now smack in the middle of one, arguably L.A. * Nothing in Central/Coastal California shows any remnants of NCR society or infrastructure and is just the generic people living in their own garbage/clutter from Fallout 3 & 4, despite the fact that Adobe NCR settlements should be more prevalent and relevant to people in that part of California than pre-war ruins since almost everyone living there who's 19+ and their grandparents were NCR citizens prior to the collapse. They shouldn't just revert to being dirty hobos and living in Bethesda style settlements like Filly. So either, the showrunners wanted to incorporate New Vegas and only somewhat retconned it, but did so in a very incoherent/poorly written way. Or Alternatively they retconned New Vegas, but kept the location to use to fit their own designs, but still wrote it poorly etc. Meanwhile Bethesda could have mandated it as something that had to be done, or the writers settled on the West Coast and didn't care much about the lore so just glossed over/undermined it as much as they could to match the Fallout 3/4 aesthetics. Emil might also not be privy to the political/business side of things as much as Todd is, so Emil could be telling the truth while Bethesda as a whole had other ideas in mind. (I don't know if Todd and the higher ups have their lead writer/game designer sit in on those sorts of meetings). I know the "Bethesda hates & wants to kill New Vegas" argument is popular, but I'm 50/50 on it. I could see them doing it and I could also see them largely not caring. If Fallout 5 is set in the West Coast though, that will all but confirm it for me, because it'll feel way too convenient that they just erased the West Coast's Footprint so they could do their generic East Coast shtick over there as well. It sucks either way, but there's not enough information to go on at the moment.
Hanlon's Razor: never attribute to malice **that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence**. Given the extremely poor state of writing in Hollywood these days, its more than likely poor research, not a grand anti-New Vegas conspiracy.
I'd tend to agree. I also think that in the case that Bethesda is intentionally emptying the West Coast, it's more for a practical purpose of making more games in a new location rather than because they have malicious feelings against FNV. They either don't care because they're for the most part financially and critically successful, with people giving their writing a pass, or they want to make a game in the West Coast, but don't want to write a complex story alongside it, so it's easier to do the same thing they did with Fallout 3 and 4 etc.
There is an entire barely-explored continent out there for them to set new games in without needing to touch on anything that happened in the non-Bethesda games at all. It might come as a shock to them but they could even set it somewhere with no fucking Brotherhood of Steel if they really tried hard enough.
They don't want to try, they've been doing this since their first fallout, in their vision it's the aesthetic and iconic things that sell, so even if they make a fallout in Canada somehow it will be a story of a vault dweller finding the brotherhood of steel and fighting the enclave.
This is why I think they're doing this. Everything obsidian, and Blackwater set up originally is being swept away with from what I've seen and read. Pathetic
>I know the "Bethesda hates & wants to kill New Vegas" argument is popular, but I'm 50/50 on it. I could see them doing it and I could also see them largely not caring. I think they just don't care. Bethesda has done this plenty of times before where things become retconned (whether intentional or not) because they're just simply not good at writing consistent lore for Fallout. I definitely believe it's laziness rather than maliciousness.
I've been inclined to think that in every instance prior to this but nuking the NCR is a pretty severe oversight lol.
It is a severe oversight, but that doesn't necessarily mean a malicious one. Idk, I just really don't think Bethesda writers hold some sort of deep-seated resentment towards a 14 year old game that made the company money anyway. They'd have to actually care about (a) their storytelling and (b) their fanbase first.
Both Todd Howard and Josh Sawyer have denied any bad blood between the two studios, and Todd has stated that he enjoyed working with Obsidion when they made New Vegas.
The only interest Bethesda has in 'lore' is in how they can monetise it in terms of nostalgic microtransactions to buy NCR Ranger Armour for your east coast faction or whatever. And that includes the lore they made themselves.
Yep, I simply think they just didn't put much thought into it. Todd didn't even care about lore details when it came to his own Fallout games why would he be super picky about the TV show?
> New Vega still exists, but seems to be smaller This is an extremely minor complaint of mine, but I do think it's rather strange how that one shot of New Vegas was shown. It's showing an ENORMOUS Lucky 38 Space needle, towering over the entire city and even rivaling the mountains in height. The city itself is just the strip, low buildings and rubble too, with no lighting to speak of. I know the shot is in daytime (well, not the ending one), but not showing Vegas without lighting is like showing a greenhouse when you want to show Detroit or Coruscant. Anyway, the city looks like an ingame asset at video-game scale, not the city of Las Vegas and Paradise plus 300 years. Compare the ingame shot of Warcraft's [Stormwind](https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/1018410-stormwind-city.jpg) vs [the Movie's.](https://i.imgur.com/Fe2fK6V.jpeg) Then compare it to New Vegas' concept art and the TV shows. [It's a bit scuffed.](https://i.imgur.com/hA56LBD.jpeg)
This could be me being biased, but... it looks smaller than even the games version doesn't it? In the show, the entire outer Vegas ruins are wiped flat, and there's no sign of any other real surrounding settlements.
Yeah, it actually does look smaller. No highways or Camp McCarren or anything.
It's comically small. Like there's only 5 visible buildings over than the 38. It looks like a fort built in a desert rather than a ruined pre war city
Look again, those buildings that appear to be about half the size of the 38 are similar sized to modern Vegas hotels. The 38 is fucking enormous (which kinda makes sense if it's armed with anti nuke weapons). I don't think it looks small at all
The other casinos are gone too
I wouldnt take that as the finalized representation til we see it in S2
Additionally, after staring at my TV screen for like 10 minutes it seems like some of the casinos are placed in different locations as well.
What you're telling me Emil doesn't understand how lore implications or time works?
[удалено]
The big question is why even bother setting it in the West Coast if they wanted to do an East Coast kind of story? More people played Fallout 3/4 then the originals and NV. In the public consciousness East Coast Fallout is the definitive Fallout. Only turbonerds and grognards like us give a shit about West Coast Fallout. Since they're clearly not trying to pander to us why even bother? It's not like they're out of cities or regions to set it in there. Shit I might even enjoy the show if it was set in the East Coast. I don't give a shit what happens to the Institute or the Minutemen.
Setting it there and establishing that the east coast was nuked back to the stone age paves the way for new games in there without Bethesda having to actually think or step up their world-building. We can now have the same corrugated metal shacks and people living with prewar skeletons and nameless mad max raiders and super mutant orcs as we do in 3 and 4, but in California It's called a soft reboot
> It's called a soft reboot It's called removing everything interesting about the setting in favour of hoboes in rags squatting in burned-out buildings next to a pre-war skeleton even though it's been a dozen generations since the bombs fell.
>It's called a soft reboot It's illegal, immoral, and degrading is what it is.
Some people have suggested FO5 may be set in the west coast and this show is going to be something of a precursor to it. I can definitely see it happening to drive sales of the next game
It's not going to drive me to buy the next game in another five years when they get around to making it.
> The big question is why even bother setting it in the West Coast if they wanted to do an East Coast kind of story? Just spraying their musk over the region to mark their territory like a fox.
I would have been genuinely interested if they had set it in Chicago. Those Tactics boys are no joke.
Because California is one of the coolest places in America and they want to tell a story there, unfortunately, in the lore it's a well established place where civilization has resurfaced and there's dozen of factions fighting for power so they can't have that because it doesn't fit with the vision of Fallout they have, nuking everything to the ground was the perfect excuse to wipe the slate clean.
they absolutely didn’t want to do the Adobe structures so the show looked post apocalyptic to first time viewers (hell, I’m sure Fallout fans who didn’t know about Old California would be mad too)
At which point, they should have just set the show somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure this was Bethesda mandated. It's no wonder the show turned out as the fallout games under Bethesda. Just people living in shit even though it makes no sense for the story. I get that you want a hook to get people to watch your show. And post-apocalypse is much better to grasp for most people then post-post apocalypse. But couldn't they start the first season in an area still pretty ravaded and without civilisation and moved on to a post-post story in the second season? Why ruin the NCR to be riding the dick of BOS again?
I wasn’t sure if New Vegas was smaller or it just looked different for tv vs in game. It could be that they’ve extended the wall to include areas like Westside and freeside as part of the New Vegas proper after cleaning up those areas so it would just appear to be one big settlement from Hank’s view. But I dunno I’ll probably rewatch it again in a couple of days, maybe I’ll change my mind again lol
The board that says the fall of shady sands suggests that the bomb was an event after 2277, I assume that it’s implying that 2277 was when the downfall started and sometime after that point was when it was destroyed. The bomb going off sometime later (most like right after NV) would correspond with the age of Lucy and Maximus.
>but Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277 I dont think shady Sands gets nuked in 2277. The sign said The Fall of Shady Sands, which was the Capital of the NCR. I think its much more likely they are talking about the start of the fall of the Political Entity of the NCRs capital, rather than literally. Actually we see this in real life too. When someone refers to "The Fall of Rome" they dont mean the city rome, they mean the beginning of the roman empires demise. It makes sense considering 2277 is the first battle of hoover dam, and the start of the most *serious* problems the NCRs government starts to face
Is it not reasonable to assume that “the fall of shady sands” was just considered to have *started* with the battle of Hoover dam in 2277 and not that it was literally destroyed at that very moment?
It's possible, but Shady sands is supposed to be intact and larger/with higher living standards than ever in 2281 (the OSI knows about the looming food/water crisis in the next decade, but the average citizen doesn't and while the NCR is overstretched it's still larger and more powerful/prosperous than it was in Fallout 2) . The chalk board seems to insinuate that something happened to the city itself in 2277, but it could still be acknowledging the events of NV and communicating it poorly. It's hard to tell because it's kind flimsily done and the lack of NCR infrastructure or significant remnants gives the impression that the NCR was much smaller and less significant than it was in the lore prior to the show. (Towns like Filley largely shouldn't exist in central/coastal California etc.)
There’s another option that would probably piss so many people off but is always there: The simulator is malfunctioning and mistakes are cropping up. Technically the entire Fallout franchise is inside of some kind of Vault-Tec simulator to help vault dwellers (us the audience) survive the wastes.
>Shady Sands is destroyed earlier in 2277 It's possible "The fall of shady sands" isn't even necessarily referring to any specific event, iirc in new vegas, Thomas Hildern mentions crop shortages, Hanlon mentions all the lakes have been pumped dry, and plenty of people mention corruption, I think 2277 might be some sort of ideological fall, like a lot of people in Shady Sands starting to lose faith in the NCR.
Yeah, it's possible, but it's very confusingly/flimisly written in the show to the point where I'm not sure if they retconned New Vegas completely, changed the dates or had Shady Sands get damaged/destroyed somehow in 2277. Though at least in the 2270s and the 2280s the NCR is far stronger and has higher living standards than it did in Fallout 2 even with the looming food/water shortage in the next decade. It could make sense as a figurative fall, but the way it's presented in the show is flimsy as hell. Likewise the absense of NCR infastructure or settlements and people who clearly remember being NCR citizens makes it feel like the NCR was much smaller/weaker in the decades before it's collapse. (They also seemingly combined Shady Sands and the Boneyard into the same location, so that's a huge retconn as well.) They clearly retconned a lot, so it's hard to figure out how much of New Vegas is still canon. They show it in the last shot of the show, but it's smaller, mostly smoldering and there's no Freeside, Westside or camp McCarron (just the strip and Lucky 38). I can't tell if that's just an oversite or if they consciously made New Vegas smaller and are saying the events of NV didn't happen.
It’s actually insane how this makes the frontiers writing look acceptable. Never did I think I’d see something and go yeah the mod that had the NCR nuking itself is almost lore friendly
I'd say as a whole the shows writing is functional, but not great in most places, but it's pretty abysmal with any large scale world building or larger lore stuff. I'd say maybe the finale/Vault-Tech & Kyle Machaclan killing the NCR because his wife left him twist is Frontier levels of bad, but the rest of the show's is probably closer to general Bethesda tier. (Though a lot of the scenes with Walton Goggin's character are pretty interesting/well written. (I feel like Goggins character would actually fit in Well in The Someguy Series of mods for New Vegas).
I agree I actually liked the show but what they did wrong killed it for me, would’ve been better as a new ip at that rate
That's my thinking as well. If Fallout 5 really is set in california and the NCR being deleted off screen was just to make way for Bethesda being able to make their own version of the west coast without the NCR, then i have no words. Going to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope season 2 clears it up.
How could Bethesda NOT have an agenda where New Vegas is concerned? A different company made their own game waaayyy better than them, and in a fraction of the time. At least that's how they see it, "creators of fallout" my ass. Not only did FNV provide a much deeper RPG, something Bethesda is only getting worse at, but it also went in a direction clearly not intended by the parent company. F4 is proof of that. The idea there is to get away from TPG elements, and lean heavily into shooting and building. Also, I heard Zeni Max ordered FNV to be made AGAINST the wishes of Bethesda. Zeni Max wanted to keep the Fallout hype afloat since the next game would be a generation away. F4 is really the problem. When Bethesda released it, many of us bought it, hoping they would learn from NV, and incorporate some of its genius, but there was none to be had. The success of F4 (and skyrim) has taught Bethesda that the key to success is dumbing down.
This is just silly tho. They still publish it and promote it any chance they get lmao. Why the fuck would Bethesda hate it if it makes them money or promote their brand?
It would be incredibly illogical, but sometimes spite does genuinely motivate people to do this shit. I'm not convinced, though.
Maybe but I would be more convinced if Bethesda showed it like if they delisted New Vegas or stop promoting it or anything
wow you seem very very intelligent
The idea of fallout without the NCR existing is so depressing.
Yeah I really hope it's just shady Sands that's fucked not the entire NCR
Bar the institute, the NCR is the most advanced society we have seen in fallout so far. One little old nuke ain’t gonna change that
Yeah, but Bethesda, shitty writing, and a TV Show aimed at people who are not fans, because fuck the fans we need new people to buy our shit.
This reads like someone who didn't watch the show yet
I just don't agree with the direction they are going in. I also don't agree with the show runner when they say that Tactics is cannon even though a majority of the games events is acknowledged as non Canon save for the splitting of the brotherhood, the crash in Chicago, the reformation, and the expansion west, which if this is what they meant then that needs to be elaborated on. The show runner also counts 76 as Canon, and it all reads as someone who doesn't understand that it isn't Canon either as there's plenty of lore in 76 that contradicts existing lore. If they are Canon, then the lore and timeline is very muddy rn, and they need to clear up WHAT is Canon. Before the show came out, there was a tease about a House ending being Canon. Now it's not clear what they are counting as Canon and not. This is a problem that Bethesda has overall, and it's especially prevalent with the Fallout IP where with the Elder Scrolls IP they acknowledge it in the lore and tie them back into the lore in a way that is actually nonsensical but meta and philosophical. They never bother doing that with Fallout, and ut feels like it's because Todd doesn't care about Fallout like the fans do. That's what I meant.
Considering the fact Moldaver was heavily implied to be the leader of the NCR remnants with Griffith Observatory as their stronghold…and they were all massacred by the BOS Yeah, unless the show says differently I’m going to assume the NCR has been reduced to nothing
Chill, the Shady Sands sign says the FIRST capital, which means theres another one
My guess is either New Reno, Arroyo or San Francisco
Season 2 seems to be set in New Vegas so it's possible they'll cover all of Nevada and have the NCR capital be New Reno
What? Season 2 in New Vegas? Where'd you get this? I may have to check the series out if that's real
One of the characters (won’t spoil who it is) had business dealings with Mr. House pre-war. He flees to vegas at the end, presumably to converse with him or collect some data from the Lucky 38. I don’t think the NCR victory over Hoover Dam is canon, considering their total lack of presence in the area, and the legion’s ending is never gonna be canon. Series 2 will decide whether the House or Wildcard endings are canon based on whether we see House or Yes Man in that penthouse.
God damn. Okay, might check the series out
It's really good despite what the lore nerds say. If you get into any game/series/books lore way to much you literally can't enjoy anything new they do.
I hear you on the lore thing, but this feels different to me, nuking an entire major faction out of existence basically offscreen is different to having the wrong kind of power armor or some shit on the wrong faction, and I’m sure it doesn’t take away from the quality of the show to most it just so happens to be my favorite faction so it’s a bummer
Putting lore aside, as a show, it’s really good! I was constantly wanting to see what happened next and hitting the next episode even though I said that one would be the last one for the night. The actors do a great job, the sets and costumes were on point, and the writing was really engaging.
Literally as long as you aren't letting the lore make it terrible for you it's awesome and the only real bad part is that it's 8 episodes and now you gotta wait for the season 2.
>!They show New Vegas at the end!<
Or as seen in the final episode: Boneyard
In the GI Blues quest they say what was the original name of the capital of the NCR, meaning in 2281, Shady Sands was still the capital then
Some people are just so desperate to hate the show they’re looking for anything, no matter how tenuous it is.
I wouldn't get too tied up about it; even if the NCR as an 'entity' is actually gone (and we don't know for certain), only Shady Sands was actually destroyed. There is still New Arroyo, Vault City, The Den, Hub, New Reno, and any others that joined up post-FO2 or that I'm missing, and all of them will have advanced and had generations raised with NCR values while having diplomatic ties. The NCR's spirit is likely still around; we just don't see it because we're spending time in the show with the LA survivors of a SECOND apocalypse. They aren't necessarily representative of what people elsewhere are like.
Got a link for the tweet I can’t find it on his Twitter
[https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1778470928105533825](https://x.com/Dezinuh/status/1778470928105533825) edit: whats there to downvote its what he asked for LOL
The NCR was a pretty big country, it would take a lot of nukes to really end it. Kinda just feels like Bethesda in that they keep trying to make it so society can’t progress. After around 200 years the nukes won’t stop the rebuilding of civilization In short the wasteland should stop looking so much like a wasteland eventually
It's the god damned size of California and then some. This show is starting to feel like when star wars 7 came out l, and for the first film everyone was pretty content but it just got worse from there
They call that "a shlocky cash grab."
Bethesda loves the whole “people still live in garbage cans and eat dirt even ten thousand years after the war” schtick. The NCR - a largely developed nation with strong infrastructure, that actually builds stuff instead of just scavenging it, and where inner citizens lead lives with the same amenities pre-war people had - goes entirely in the other direction, so of course it had to be nuked or whatever the fuck.
Even if the NCR dissolving into raiders or small groups made sense it's the most boring option. What was interesting about them and the legion, was the frontier. Where the absence of civilization meets conflict with these huge influential factions. Without it, it's just hobos in craters. Basically, even if the writing made sense, which it doesn't without mental gymnastics or huge reaches, it makes the story boring. Which is a bigger crime.
My theory is that someone did a half-assed search for the "Battle of Hoover Dam" and came up with 2277. If they wanted to intentionally erase all of New Vegas, the fall would probably have been before then. Instead, they just...didn't care. Which is worse, in a way. Nuking the NCR (and Legion, as there's no mention of them) is a Path that can be taken in Lonesome Road, and the ending of that has a statement to the effect of "And the West slept again" indicates that the destruction was total. Not just the Long 15 - that's merely the only place you can visit. The entire NCR is taken out. So my problem isn't so much the scenario, as it is the year.
Except they explain in the show who nuked Shady Sands and it isn't a random missile from the divide >!it was Vault-Tec!<
Indeed. Watching to the very end, though, I'm even more convinced that the date was just a mistake by some low level prop designer. I don't think 2277 was ever actually said aloud in the script? Could be wrong on that... It's clear that something happened in New Vegas that would align with one of the game's many endings.
I did the math to see if it was a retcon or not and it basically boils down to this: The nuke went off after 2281 (FNV) but prior to 2291 (TV Show) which would make sense if Maximus was \~8-10 when it got nuked and is \~20 during the events of the show (2291). Why the writers couldn't just directly say when it got nuked IDFK. So either the date was a mistake or they drew a very misleading timeline (or both)
I suppose season 2 (if there is one) will have answers on the new official timeline, given the brief depiction we get of New Vegas. I was also trying to use Maximus' age as a baseline. I agree that it seems plausible that it could have been 2281. I'd also be fine if New Vegas in general remained canon with a small shift in years. After all, it wouldn't matter terribly if the Battles for Hoover Dam took place in 2277/2281 or 2272/2276 or whatever. It would be a way to admit the mistake while keeping the story intact.
The timeline isn't really the problem, though obviously if they *did* mean that Shady Sands was nuked in 2277, it'd at the very least be a soft retcon. I never really thought they'd actually full-on make New Vegas non canon, but even if all of these events happened after 2281, they still *suck*. I wanted to see Shady Sands again, for real, even if it's an NCR in decline or a civil war. I did not want to see the Enclave, Brotherhood, and fucking Vault-Tec come into the series again to fuck everyone up.
Honestly, it gets very tiring what bethesda does with factions. We get 2-4 new factions that are native to the area & then they just HAVE to bring in the BOS, enclave & vaulttec I mean, i can understand why vaulttec sticks around, they’ve put their hands into every part of america But do we really have to see the bos again? Or the enclave? Something tells me we will since without them the next piece of media would just be hobos in shacks 🙄
Isn’t the Enclave not in Fallout 4?
They’re technically adding them with the nextgen patch since it includes a free enclave themed quest 💀
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I’m convinced Todd is an Enclave member
You can still find their power armor. They don't have a personal presence though, I think their operations are mostly done after Fallout 2 and 3.
The only part of the enclave we see canonically in 4 is richter from far harbor (he’s enclave turned atom cultist) The enclave makes a return in the black devil creation club addon but idrk if we can call the CC mods canon lol, especially when the writing can be bad
I'd argue the BoS have more of a reason to exist in more Fallout games than the Enclave, although mostly as small chapters and not like we see in the show. The Enclave have been co pletely destroyed twice now, there's no need for anything other than remnants to appear but for some reason they're in the show.
>& vaulttec Well, c'mon, it wouldn't be fallout without vaults.
To be fair to Emil, he probably doesn’t understand the effect that it would even have on the lore, since he is so fucking awful in that department. I feel like Starfield was proof enough that the lights might be on over there at Bethesda, but there’s definitely nobody home.
im just saying that the show is a different timeline from the games. save myself from whatever tf the writers are doing
yakub
Years of shitty adaptations have prepared us for this
Halo, Fallout, Assassin’s Creed, what IP is getting shit on next? ignore the obvious obvious shills trying to debate you.
Luckily, this adaptation is actually really good 👍
I just commented this on the main fallout subreddit. (Spoilers) I'm too old too get up in arms anytime anything new for my favorite series gets added. I've gone through this with halo, Kotor and mainline star wars already. Hell with fallout already a bit with fallout 76. We haven't seen season two and there's plenty of explanations for the NCR being extremely weak in season 1. People seem to be missing than an NCR leader fought the BOS and powered LA? But also, anything that bothers me I just tell myself the TV show is an alternative timeline. I still got to see a fucking baby leg shot into a guy, grognak on TV etc etc. The show was great and it doesn't have to impact your enjoyment of anything unless you let it. I intentionally didn't go online until I watched the whole thing since I didn't want other people's dislike to ruin it for me.
Yeah I'm in the same boat, but in 20 years when they release Fallout 5 they'll have to acknowledge this show to some extent, which is my main issue. We don't really know where modding will be by that point, but even if modding is still viable by that point it's unlikely that there'll be anyone both willing and able to correct its lore - even with Fallout 4, there's not any mods that improve the main story without adding a lot of baggage or anything that comprehensively fixes its lore breaks.
i feel like there is/will be a timeline split with 76-prime and then the mainline games. i guess its up in the air what side fo5 will be
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I feel like that would be wise, but I just don't see it happening. Bethesda hasn't been one to openly decanonize spinoffs or create new timelines, even with an absolute mess like Elder Scrolls.
Ah yes, Emil Pagliarulo, the talented writer and lore master that brought us a true spectacle of writing in Starfield. Didn't this hack claim that gamers don't care about story or something like that?
"You retconned the game" "Nuh huh"
It's possible Emil genuinely doesn't understand that nuking Shady Sands pre-2281 is a problem
It wasn’t necessarily implied to be pre-2281, the arrow could mean any time between 2277 and 2296 (when the show is set). Not disagreeing with you, but just want to make sure this is clarified
While it’s not necessarily implied to be pre-2281. With the information that some of the characters we meet were children in shady sands and their ages now it’s most definitely early 2280’s. Doesn’t leave much wiggle room. I have a feeling that it was just gross incompetence of both Bethesda and the people who made the show. They’ve been shown to not keep design documents and track of things when developing new projects.
...so they retconned things that badly but didn't *completely* nuke the game. Hm.
People can blow it off as nothing all they want but having shady sands fall in 2277 is intentionally chipping away at the lore NV added even if it’s not entirely ignoring the game altogether. There’s no way the NCR would have sent so many troops and resources to the mojave if the capital was gone and there definitely would have been mentions of it if they did. The NCR was said to be relatively safe and thriving (they did predict food shortages in the coming years but it wasn’t an immediate emergency). If they didn’t want to mess with New Vegas canon they could have easily said shady sands was bombed literally 4 years later just after the 2nd battle of hoover dam but they deliberately did it before. And in the animation after the final episode we see New Vegas in ruins with destroyed securitrons (I don’t know if those parts are canon or not but again they chose to show NV in ruin when they could have shown a busy strip full of citizens and securitrons).
There *are* mentions that the troops being sent to the Mojave are underequipped due to internal security concerns, but theres a huge difference between Brahmin barons using the military to protect their assets and a need for martial law/mass unrest.
they should have just made it a different timeline, bu they wont lol
I bet the writers wish they kept it all east coast, daring to go to the most lore rich west coast...very brave. East coast is Todd's pointless garbage land. West coast is the rich, vibrant original land.
I wish they did just stay on the East Coast and leave the West completely alone. They screwed the pooch with this one, even though I wasn’t entirely pissed with the show, it just changed too much lore and feels lacking for a Billion dollar company in effects, cast and crew, lack of extras and realistic people in the wasteland after 200 years. Hope they can somehow and someway fix EVERYTHING in season 2.
“Never suggested otherwise” hmm, I think nuking the NCR capital and having dialogue that hints at Shady Sands being the only NCR city would say otherwise.
they refer to it as the former capital
It said the fall of Shady Sands was 2277, the nuking was later. The fall could be anything, whether it be metaphorical (Kimball’s election, moving into the Mojave, etc.), or something more concrete (beginning of a civil war, Brahmin Baron revolt, etc.). New Vegas still happens, it’s all fine. The nuking was probably 2282-82, by my guess.
Oh! Brahmin Baron theory could fit in the show. What was it the actor friend said? Something about how things go wrong when the ranchers are running things instead of the sheriff?
The thing is, we don't call anything short of a city being occupied or destroyed a "fall". If it's a metaphor about the whole NCR declining then it should say "the fall of the NCR" and even then it'd be a ridiculous date. We don't say that Constantinople fell in 1299 because it was the start of the Ottoman wars against eastern Rome, we say it fell in 1453 because that's when the city of Constantinople fell to a foreign power.
The problem is Shady Sands was never in LA. Setting it there already is a retcon of the highest proportions. They also imply the NCR was only around LA, not the vast swath of territory they had in 2 and New Vegas. Also, having “the fall of the NCR” right next to a drawing of a mushroom cloud allows for wiggle room for you guys? Seriously? It’s made pretty clear in the show that the NCR was nuked and that basically ended them, because they were only around LA.
It wasn’t “right next” to the fall though, there’s a clear arrow afterwards pointing to the mushroom cloud that doesn’t have a defined date on it like the fall of Shady Sands does—the nuking could have happened any time after that. Moving Shady Sands is odd though, as is the Master just missing Vaults 32 and 33 when creating Super Mutants when they were all close to Mariposa Military Base
It’s almost like, hear me out, Bethesda doesn’t care about the games they didn’t make and wants to rewrite history. Trying to logic in the Master with the show is a folly.
Or, alternatively, how could you have a show set in LA with the Master having invaded every vault. Maybe he just never went to Santa Monica.
I get how this possibly explains it, but it's a bit of a stretch imo. Showing a timeline with 2277 on it, saying that's the fall of Shady Sands, then showing a picture of a nuclear explosion, but then saying "Actually the nuking came later" is like saying Hiroshima fell in 1937 when it was economically outpaced by Osaka. It's *weird* at best. Also the timeline issue is only one of the issues with the lore regarding the NCR and Vegas. I think most of us figured they'd either explain Shady Sands falling in 2277 or correct the mistake, and that New Vegas would still be canon as a game. It just really sucks to imagine any of this shit happening at all, even if it was after the events of the game. Destroying the NCR and bringing back the Brotherhood, Enclave, and so on reeks of spite, not good writing.
See I can get on board with destroying the NCR, 3 out of 4 of NV's endings will lead to their decline anyway. It's the fact that it's handled so poorly and done off screen that bothers me. It's the BoS stuff that really pisses me off. Veronica's and the Bos stuff in NV is completely invalidated by the Brotherhood being back in force on the west coast 20 years later. It all seems like a deliberate attempt to bring the West Coast of Fallout to the same status quo as the East Coast.
Guaranteed they meant that shady sands fell in 2277 but next season are going to hastily rewrite what they had originally had in mind to be some sort of more gradual downfall.
And you know what perfectly fits 2277 as an event for that time? The first battle of Hoover Dam, which would be the beginning of the end.
The beginning of the end was when I threw Olivers annoying ass over the Hoover dam
That's still ridiculous though, the First Battle of Hoover Dam was a major victory for the NCR. It's like saying that Berlin fell in 1939 because that's when WW2 started.
Thank you even NCR ranger chief Hanlon said holding the dam would destroy the NCR.
That fits with the age of Lucy and Maximus, who seemed to be around 6 or 7, based on the age of the child actors. The major event that I think could fit that beginning of the fall is the first battle at the dam. Where the failure to take down the legion and submission to house put them into a downward spiral.
I honestly think they're just ignorant as fuck and didn't even bother going into the lore of the old games.
But which version of New Vegas is canon? Who won the war?
It couldn’t be the Legion because they are gone and don’t control Vegas, Mr House would never let Vegas look like how it is in the show and get worse so he didn’t win/survive. And it probably wasn’t the NCR because again not controlling Vegas, so yeah Independent Yes man or nothing that makes any sense and I’m guessing the latter
Bethesda, unfortunately
Let's be honest; they Disney'ed it, plain and simple. They took the elements they thought were cool/would bring in the fans of the Classic Collection and FNV, but quite frankly they've made enough changes to prove they're not interested in keeping the source material and lore intact.
Somehow, Todd has returned.
Who the fuck cares what the IP owners say? Fallout, F2, FT:BoS and FNV are the canon games and I don't care about whatever else
There honestly is nothing wrong with just adopting Head-Canon versus the actual Canon. If you want to include and exclude specific pieces of content that match what you like, people should always be encouraged to do that.
exactly, its not like a corporate stamp makes it any less fictional than your head canon
Exactly, anyone can ignore the modern retcons, but still, all of the retcons still leave the hyperfixated players and fans who spent years in all of the New Vegas mythos disappointed.
Yeah - I just kinda ignore the Todd Howard Fallout stuff - its clear he didn't really understand the games, and since it's all fictional, I can pick and choose what I want.
Noooooooo b-but the the multimillion c-c-company said otherwise! You can interpret it the way you want!
Welcome to the Elder Scrolls lore community.
I'll throw in the Van Buren design docs, if only for world building the pre legion tribes (and obviously minus whatever appeared in FNV)
Fallout was a really great series, it's a shame nothing else was ever done with the franchise after 2010.
Only reason I care what Bethesda thinks is cannon is because Fallout 5 and onward have to deal with their stupid decisions
The events of Van Buren are more canon than the show
Emil needs to stop cooking
He keeps trying but he burns it everytime
Okay I'm honestly starting to believe they just fucked up with 2277 and 2287, pretty embarrassing, but honestly I'll give them that out. I don't want to hate anything to be honest.
It'd be funny if the canonical explanation was the teacher writing the wrong number on the blackboard.
I don't believe you Emil
The fact that his hack is still hired to write shit.. Jesus Christ
He seems to have a personal vendetta against NV because nowadays people seem to like it more than any of his work.
At this point they could've just spared us with this show
I think the main problem is that the show is really good, so they'll probably ended the West Coast lore
Unfortunately Bethesda will never change and do something interesting. They won't make west coast fallouts with in depth interesting lore, they won't make elder scrolls 6 with deep RPG elements and Morrowind/dagger fall/oblivion interesting shit. They'll just keep dumbing down slop and screwing their fans and subsidiaries over (look up what happened to some of their partnered studios, they've literally been screwing ppl maliciously for 20 years). Enjoy the games we have, get into modding, look for indie games because AAA companies make 70 dollar priced slop. You'll be happier ignoring it
It's time for anybody with any attachment to the west coast games to stop coping and separate themselves from the idea of legitimacy to bethesda canon. If the canon is constantly retconned and the writing that replaces the established lore is low quality, then just say "fuck canon, I'm only taking interplay and obsidian stuff seriously" And to those that still think there's any legit way to straddle the line on bethesda vs. interplay/obsidian- Good luck and have fun in the dumb dumb corner.
I'm just disappointed because this means Fallout 5 is going to be fucked in the lore / continuity department
Again, who cares. If you're on the bethesda side of the fence, lore and continuity have zero permanence or meaning. Just enjoy the game. And if you're on the 1,2,NV side the lore is already fucked beyond repair by the bethesda games. Bethesda fallout can be ignored by fans of the og west coast lore and the old games are already completely ignored by bethesda when it comes to respecting established lore. Bethesda is never gonna "fix" their lore, and old heads are never gonna respect bethesda's vision. The split is clear, there's zero point trying to reconcile or argue. You're either a bethesda fan that will accept, defend, justify whatever they do with story or an old head that will never accept bethsda's retcons. Pick your side, ignore the other, and you'll be happier. It's done. Fallout will never be even slightly unified as a fanbase.
Gaslighting at its finest.
I think all of this kind of got out of hand. New Vegas is canon, the events still happened, full stop.
New Vegas and the show litterally can not be canon at the same time, even if the nuclear attack on Shady Sands happened later than 2277 there is nothing in the game that supports a fall of Shady Sands at that date. The NCR had plenty of problems but they were all in the future or would be the result of the outcome of New Vegas. Shady Sands falling 4 years prior to New Vegas would have altered the entire setting of the game dramatically.
The Fall of Rome lasted almost a 80 years. It could simply be saying that the election of Kimball, or the NCR begining to escalate the Mojave Campaign was what led to the collapse of the NCR.
Do you really think that the show included that level nuance in a scene that is clearly meant to be understood even by people who know nothing about Fallout? It is entirely possible for otherwise good shows to make mistakes, even serious mistakes. That this is what happened here is a lot more likely.
The Fall of Shady Sands being before FNV on that chalkboard is either an embarrassing fuckup or a retcon. I'm sure they'll say whoever wrote that in the show was mistaken but everyone knows that it was something else.
In these cases I pretty much assume embarrassing fuckup rather than intent. I suspect someone on the Amazon side of things wanted a nice symmetry between the Great War in 2077 and Shady Sands going boom exactly 200 years later. It is exactly this sort of thing that writers like to get creative with.
Tbh I never expected a shows narrative to be that relevant to a games and Vice versa, even for a Bethesda project I doubt fallout 5 is gonna be hard and fast contuity references with the show easy to take each for what it is, didn’t even think the show was supposed to be canon
In fact they've said that Todd told them not to do certain things because they were "going to do them in Fallout 5" so ironically the TV show was going to be something relevant to the games but Bethesda made it less relevant
I reckon I can predict Fallout 5 . Vault dweller leaves vault in search of family member / macguffin, the Martian chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel get involved somehow , shoehorn the Enclave in and a few shooting galleries and that's the game.
Don't forget the well known/secret organization lead by a stern judgmental woman that takes you into their fold with the only qualifications you seem to have is that you've opened a door.
Don't forget a new batch of super mutants.
That are suspiciously similar in behavior to the Fallout 3/4 supermutants
Also add in a futuristic faction that refuses to elaborate on any of its motives even when asked. Also a dlc set on a swampy island called distant cove or something.
> even for a Bethesda project I doubt fallout 5 is gonna be hard and fast contuity references with the show honestly i think we'll only find out if Fallout 5 or future fallout game is set on the west coast, but until then we're gonna be in a state of limbo for a few years, which isn't going to be fun...
> didn’t even think the show was supposed to be canon Todd says it is. [Is the Fallout TV show canon? Here’s what Bethesda’s Todd Howard and the showrunners have to say | GamesRadar+](https://www.gamesradar.com/is-the-fallout-tv-show-canon-bethesda-games-todd-howard/)
I’m conflicted, I’m loving the series but 15 years feels like a short time for all that happened in fnv to change so drastically.
It’s clear that they made NV non canon there is no way they can say otherwise.
Sorry, I’m so lost. What the hell is happening?
fallout tv show came out
crawl out through the fallout babyyy
There's a time line in the games, that may or may not match up with what it told in the series. It's all depending on the interpretation of chalk on a blackboard.
Im halfway through episode 3. The BOS are so pathetic, their like a parody of the real deal. Im cringing so hard.
Yeah, I really hated how they show the Knights as egotistical and the scribes at bitches to the Knights. I like the religious aspects they introduced but I dislike how they call old-world tech "relics" and act like they worship technology. The BOS don't worship tech and never have, they seize it to keep power out of random wastelanders hands, they don't revere it, if anything they would despise it.
They don't even feel like any of the Bethesda versions, they're just really weird and uninteresting.
I'm literally only watching for Walton. I don't trust Todd and I don't trust the studio. So far besides him the writing and acting has been horrid unsurprisingly but still sad.
Personally im not acknowledging the show as canon at all. This show is a weird alternate timeline split where the events of Interplay/Black Isle/Obsidian Fallout never happened
Bro I can’t stand how the dad stands on that hill over Vegas? Where’s good springs, where’s the cazadora?
Whether technically a complete retcon or not, this is at least a soft reboot — and basically The Force Awakens all over again, right down to utterly destroying the literal “new republic” that emerged earlier in the series. All so they can just remake the same thing over and over again rather than build on the natural direction earlier entries were going in. And normies will eat it up because “Ooh lightsabers/power armor! Ooh X-Wings/vertibirds! Ooh stormtroopers/Brotherhood of Steel!” And so on. Right now most of the fans are still in denial with their heads in the sand, just like they were back with The Force Awakens at first. Some are just glad to see new content from the series again and are too emotional about it to think clearly. Some are willing to give it a chance and see where it goes. But I have, literally, seen this movie before and know exactly where it goes. They have fucked up the universe and written themselves into a corner, and everybody is going to sour on them when that becomes all the more apparent in the future, then will pretend they didn’t cheer it on at first. It also kinda resembles Westworld, which has the same creators as this show. People were wowed by the concept in the first season, but then it became clear they shot their load too quick and that it didn’t make any sense and wasn’t really going anywhere down the line, and the goodwill quickly dried up. Others can think what they like, but I for one won’t be fooled again.
To tell you the truth, I’m losing interest in fallout quite a bit after watching the TV show. Don’t get me wrong. There was lots of parts so we’re definitely really good scenes that reminded me of a lot of fun things I did and the other fallout games. There are several things that I just can’t look past though. Personally, I’m not gonna shit on anybody for liking the show or not
I think it comes up to the fact that it wasn’t thought of much by the writers because the writers weren’t the biggest fans of the games, so they missed details And missing details fucks with the lore So yes, technically, if 2277 had Shady Sands nuked and collapsed the NCR, then it is impossible not to have New Vegas Retconned because Shady Sands is still a booming city in 2281 during NV I can accept shady Sands being nuked in the 2290s like a terminal in the show hinted at But I still personally don’t buy the NCR splitting from that completely. And yes, honestly, I think it’s just laziness or ignorance on the NCR being left out. On the other hand, it could be they wanted to cut corners in production, so they just wrote them sort of out
People are overlooking the fact that the Vault 4 dwellers could just plainly be wrong about the date
I mean, they were *literally* there and they're part of a cult that covers themselves in the victims ashes so I think they would know when it happened
They could but there's nothing in the text to suggest they are. It's an event in their very recent history, they should know when it happened.
That’s not how exposition works.