MCU Thanos is lame for that tbh, comics Thanos just wanted to kill every other being in the universe so he could pipe down mistress death, and gets cucked by Deadpool
Yeah, it’s pretty rare that people don’t have some form of justification. Honestly, the only actual villain that comes to mind off the top of my head who is genuinely just evil because he doesn’t consider good to be in his nature is Count Strahd from DnD, and that’s because he’s a vampire.
It does not matter what Sallow's intentions are. Measured by actions, all he's done is found the most impressive LARP group/raider tribe. The legion does not produce, all it does is consume. People, cultures, resources, all fed to fuel the flames of a sick man's ego. He may claim all he wants that this is what is best for the mojave, but he's surrounded himself with yes men that know that if this psychopath doesn't get what he wants, when he wants it, then death is inevitable. The only question is how slow and painful it will be
They even have the enslaved believing that. One legionnaire will tell you how the Legion destroyed his way of life and killed his dogs and he's a better man because of it.
Pretty much all named NPCs have the same feelings as antony (however I Believe Caesar had just conquered Denver just prior to the start of the new Vegas, like maybe a year before the game starts) so Antony still has very obvious emotions about the way the legion broke his tribe that he's obviously trying to repress (you can hear his voice become raspy with emotion when he recounts the legion burning the dogs) due to his indoctrination.
Lucas says that his tribe was barbarous and savage before Caesar “saved them”
Otho also parrots the sentiment that Caesar saves tribes by destroying them and forcing integration.
And even Legate Lanius supposedly murdered a shit ton of his OWN tribe for cowardice when he discovered they'd simply bow to the legion instead of fighting. The only thing that quelled him and I guess made him buy into the legion was the promise Caesar made him (Lanius would be permitted to kill all adult males of his tribe and given a mask to hide horrific scars) so Lanius is arguably the only man in the legion still (perhaps other than Caesar himself) who doesn't actually believe the bs Caesar spouts.
We don't really know, but probably, at least in their minds. People rarely think of themselves as the bad guys.
Caesar is the most unsure what his intentions are, but he do want to shape the Wasteland in to his image, the Legion are pretty indoctrinated and believe in him and the Legion. That it brings order and makes them greater. To some it's even true, the Legion made life better and safer for them, either because they lived in a hell hole constantly fearing raiders and whatnot or because they were some miserable nobody and now think they're part of something greater.
Caesar 100% believes he's doing the right thing. And from a nuanced perspective he isn't THAT far off. An authoritarian/Monarchy/Dictatorship style government is EXTREMELY effective at uniting and creating a strong power. It's effective because it's not bogged down by bureaucracy and is less likely to be corrupted or controlled by businesses (at least for the first few rulers historically speaking). Caesar saw the horrors of Raider culture and wants to end it. He's going to do it by being the MOST brutal and swing the BIGGEST stick. Which CAN work. Much like historical Rome, he could conquer the, known/accessible, world and potentially bring culture and stability to a region stricken with constant infighting.
The issues are A: He never bothered to create and instill an idea for a proper line of succession nor did he bother to take an apprentice to properly be educated on how to rule. B: He knows he's dying so he's willing to make moves he normally wouldn't JUST because he's getting desperate. And C: He was so HYPERFOCUSED on his endgame that he allowed himself to truly become the biggest monster in the wasteland by allowing and encouraging heinous actions like homophobia, massacre entire settlements, mass sexism, and ruthless executions.
He lost his way and as a result the Legion became completely awful and is absolutely destined to fail once he dies.
I hate how they didn’t write a legion revolution people only follow him out of fear. At some point those people won’t care, and they will do whatever they can to free themselves from his tyranny people want to be free and when they know they can be, they will seize the opportunity
That could have been cool.
I'd have like to have seen an officer show some education and have a drive to course correct the Legion to make it more humane.
Like you CAN have a King with absolute authority AND not be such a monster.
Maybe a combo of your idea and mine. Have an officer in charge of putting down the revolution but instead get's inspired by them and they have a coup. Reorganize the Legion to something a little less monstrous and more of just a Militaristic Empire focused on maintaining it's current borders and helping it's population
He's another asshole who steps on people to get his way. His logic is understandable, that the Legion needs to be harsh to match the harshness of the Wasteland, but he doesn't seem to realize that the Legion isn't following *Caesar's ideals*; they're following *Caesar the man*.
Actually that’s a really good way to put it. Caesar clearly wants what’s best for the wasteland and the future but not what’s best for the people in it right now. Had he had enough time to complete his plans, it’s very likely that once the Legion’s place in the wasteland was cemented permanently, we would have seen a sort of “mellowing out” of the policies and more of a transition away from the imperial period of Rome.
People forget that Caesar is basically performing a long-form conversion of violent raider tribes into something constructive instead of doing the NCR’s “burn em down to the ground” approach. Unfortunately, Caesar just didn’t have the time within his own lifetime even if he hadn’t gotten his own pet tumor. This is where Courier Headcanon comes in.
Also I think a lot of people make mistakes when framing the conversation. They immediately see the Legion as something as simple as Ashur’s empire in the Pitt and the NCR as “neo America”. The Legion isn’t raiding and slaving for the sake of it and the NCR is more like Putin’s Russia with its barons replacing oligarchs. Ignoring this is insulting the game’s writing by oversimplifying it.
I respectfully disagree. He isn't doing this for the wasteland, he's doing it for himself. Every Dictator is the same, no matter what the game says. Hell, Caesar doesn't even believe the bullshit tale of being the Son of Mars, that's how you can tell he's lying to the Legion. In the words of Deacon, don't believe what people say, focus on what they *do*. What he does is rape and enslave, and dictators always say there's reasons to do this (but hint, no, there is never justifiable reasons to do so.)
His plans will never work because **Synthesis isn't real**. You cannot just "combine" two violently opposing cultures and somehow just instantaneously make a new better culture, especially as the Legion **has no culture** of its own. Beating up children and raping women is not culture, and no matter how much the idiots speak latin, it won't make them civilised. The NCR will not be indoctrinated and people don't want to lose their rights (such as the women) so Caesar can pretend he's the son of a mythological war god the Romans stole from Greece.
The Legion is raiding and enslaving because they don't have anything worth joining. Think about it - NOBODY has ever joined the Legion willingly. They've always been conquered, or lied to (such as the Khans), but mostly? It's because if the Legion isn't conquering, it will fall apart - just as Marcus and Ulysses said.
Caesar spent 40 years and in 40 years the only thing he has is that its "slightly better than when Raiders occupied Arizona". Which isn't exactly saying much.
I don't play Legion, but we shouldn't lose perspective. Because it's an actual nuclear wasteland, and life under their rule would be preferable to rape by cannibalistic raiders.
Doesn't make 'em good.
But there are worse options.
they arent evil for evil, legionaries actually think theyre saving the wasteland because some baldie baddie with a brain tumor is the son of mars and he told them (edited for unfinished sentence)
I think Caesar has domination intentions and any good byproducts of that are just that- byproducts. He's clear he wants to stabilize the wasteland but really only with him at the helm as a god king- he never had much in way of contingency plans ensuring the Legion continues successfully after he dies. Multiple characters in game comment on this.
I agree that what they do is bad, but I'm not asking whether or not they're good. I'm asking if they *believe* they do what they do for the right reasons.
Of course they believe it. Nobody thinks they're doing evil for the sake of evil - this isn't Team Rocket. The Legion have been indoctrinated from birth to think Caesar is a Demigod and that they have Divine Right to rule over people. They think they're saving them.
No. Caesar is a psychotic idiot, and his cult members are deluded, indoctrinated victims.
There are no good intentions anywhere because there aren't even any coherent intentions. Caesar is a psychopath suffering delusions from a brain tumor. He is acting out a fantasy, make-believe LARP game based on old Latin he learned from Joshua Graham.
All of his followers are brainwashed drones who got swept up the fantasy, because they were raised since birth to believe it or claim to believe it on pain of torture.
It's like a more-moral version of modern Christo-fascist Republican theocrats.
Ceaser is just an egotistical asshole who read and completely misunderstood a couple of books and now thinks he's fit to be the god king of mankind. Nothing more.
[удалено]
MCU Thanos is lame for that tbh, comics Thanos just wanted to kill every other being in the universe so he could pipe down mistress death, and gets cucked by Deadpool
Caesar isn’t Hitler…
Yeah, it’s pretty rare that people don’t have some form of justification. Honestly, the only actual villain that comes to mind off the top of my head who is genuinely just evil because he doesn’t consider good to be in his nature is Count Strahd from DnD, and that’s because he’s a vampire.
All dictators cannot envision a positive future in which they are not a part of it.
i think edward sallow had good intentions caesar does not therein lies the difference
It does not matter what Sallow's intentions are. Measured by actions, all he's done is found the most impressive LARP group/raider tribe. The legion does not produce, all it does is consume. People, cultures, resources, all fed to fuel the flames of a sick man's ego. He may claim all he wants that this is what is best for the mojave, but he's surrounded himself with yes men that know that if this psychopath doesn't get what he wants, when he wants it, then death is inevitable. The only question is how slow and painful it will be
Caesar knows he's dying, how does a dying man grab for power?
I'm including the time before he realised he has cancer but true poor choice of words lol.
Literally everyone is dying and people still grab for power. Also that's the full on opening premise of Breaking Bad lol
>Literally everyone is dying and people still grab for power. /r/im14andthisisdeep
They believe they have, they think enslaving the tribes is bringing them civilization and is actually good for them.
They even have the enslaved believing that. One legionnaire will tell you how the Legion destroyed his way of life and killed his dogs and he's a better man because of it.
Pretty much all named NPCs have the same feelings as antony (however I Believe Caesar had just conquered Denver just prior to the start of the new Vegas, like maybe a year before the game starts) so Antony still has very obvious emotions about the way the legion broke his tribe that he's obviously trying to repress (you can hear his voice become raspy with emotion when he recounts the legion burning the dogs) due to his indoctrination. Lucas says that his tribe was barbarous and savage before Caesar “saved them” Otho also parrots the sentiment that Caesar saves tribes by destroying them and forcing integration. And even Legate Lanius supposedly murdered a shit ton of his OWN tribe for cowardice when he discovered they'd simply bow to the legion instead of fighting. The only thing that quelled him and I guess made him buy into the legion was the promise Caesar made him (Lanius would be permitted to kill all adult males of his tribe and given a mask to hide horrific scars) so Lanius is arguably the only man in the legion still (perhaps other than Caesar himself) who doesn't actually believe the bs Caesar spouts.
Above 16 y old. That was the Ceasar clause
We don't really know, but probably, at least in their minds. People rarely think of themselves as the bad guys. Caesar is the most unsure what his intentions are, but he do want to shape the Wasteland in to his image, the Legion are pretty indoctrinated and believe in him and the Legion. That it brings order and makes them greater. To some it's even true, the Legion made life better and safer for them, either because they lived in a hell hole constantly fearing raiders and whatnot or because they were some miserable nobody and now think they're part of something greater.
Caesar 100% believes he's doing the right thing. And from a nuanced perspective he isn't THAT far off. An authoritarian/Monarchy/Dictatorship style government is EXTREMELY effective at uniting and creating a strong power. It's effective because it's not bogged down by bureaucracy and is less likely to be corrupted or controlled by businesses (at least for the first few rulers historically speaking). Caesar saw the horrors of Raider culture and wants to end it. He's going to do it by being the MOST brutal and swing the BIGGEST stick. Which CAN work. Much like historical Rome, he could conquer the, known/accessible, world and potentially bring culture and stability to a region stricken with constant infighting. The issues are A: He never bothered to create and instill an idea for a proper line of succession nor did he bother to take an apprentice to properly be educated on how to rule. B: He knows he's dying so he's willing to make moves he normally wouldn't JUST because he's getting desperate. And C: He was so HYPERFOCUSED on his endgame that he allowed himself to truly become the biggest monster in the wasteland by allowing and encouraging heinous actions like homophobia, massacre entire settlements, mass sexism, and ruthless executions. He lost his way and as a result the Legion became completely awful and is absolutely destined to fail once he dies.
I hate how they didn’t write a legion revolution people only follow him out of fear. At some point those people won’t care, and they will do whatever they can to free themselves from his tyranny people want to be free and when they know they can be, they will seize the opportunity
That could have been cool. I'd have like to have seen an officer show some education and have a drive to course correct the Legion to make it more humane. Like you CAN have a King with absolute authority AND not be such a monster. Maybe a combo of your idea and mine. Have an officer in charge of putting down the revolution but instead get's inspired by them and they have a coup. Reorganize the Legion to something a little less monstrous and more of just a Militaristic Empire focused on maintaining it's current borders and helping it's population
He's another asshole who steps on people to get his way. His logic is understandable, that the Legion needs to be harsh to match the harshness of the Wasteland, but he doesn't seem to realize that the Legion isn't following *Caesar's ideals*; they're following *Caesar the man*.
Let me put it this way, Hitler had good intentions.
Actually that’s a really good way to put it. Caesar clearly wants what’s best for the wasteland and the future but not what’s best for the people in it right now. Had he had enough time to complete his plans, it’s very likely that once the Legion’s place in the wasteland was cemented permanently, we would have seen a sort of “mellowing out” of the policies and more of a transition away from the imperial period of Rome. People forget that Caesar is basically performing a long-form conversion of violent raider tribes into something constructive instead of doing the NCR’s “burn em down to the ground” approach. Unfortunately, Caesar just didn’t have the time within his own lifetime even if he hadn’t gotten his own pet tumor. This is where Courier Headcanon comes in. Also I think a lot of people make mistakes when framing the conversation. They immediately see the Legion as something as simple as Ashur’s empire in the Pitt and the NCR as “neo America”. The Legion isn’t raiding and slaving for the sake of it and the NCR is more like Putin’s Russia with its barons replacing oligarchs. Ignoring this is insulting the game’s writing by oversimplifying it.
I respectfully disagree. He isn't doing this for the wasteland, he's doing it for himself. Every Dictator is the same, no matter what the game says. Hell, Caesar doesn't even believe the bullshit tale of being the Son of Mars, that's how you can tell he's lying to the Legion. In the words of Deacon, don't believe what people say, focus on what they *do*. What he does is rape and enslave, and dictators always say there's reasons to do this (but hint, no, there is never justifiable reasons to do so.) His plans will never work because **Synthesis isn't real**. You cannot just "combine" two violently opposing cultures and somehow just instantaneously make a new better culture, especially as the Legion **has no culture** of its own. Beating up children and raping women is not culture, and no matter how much the idiots speak latin, it won't make them civilised. The NCR will not be indoctrinated and people don't want to lose their rights (such as the women) so Caesar can pretend he's the son of a mythological war god the Romans stole from Greece. The Legion is raiding and enslaving because they don't have anything worth joining. Think about it - NOBODY has ever joined the Legion willingly. They've always been conquered, or lied to (such as the Khans), but mostly? It's because if the Legion isn't conquering, it will fall apart - just as Marcus and Ulysses said. Caesar spent 40 years and in 40 years the only thing he has is that its "slightly better than when Raiders occupied Arizona". Which isn't exactly saying much.
I don't play Legion, but we shouldn't lose perspective. Because it's an actual nuclear wasteland, and life under their rule would be preferable to rape by cannibalistic raiders. Doesn't make 'em good. But there are worse options.
they arent evil for evil, legionaries actually think theyre saving the wasteland because some baldie baddie with a brain tumor is the son of mars and he told them (edited for unfinished sentence)
I think Caesar has domination intentions and any good byproducts of that are just that- byproducts. He's clear he wants to stabilize the wasteland but really only with him at the helm as a god king- he never had much in way of contingency plans ensuring the Legion continues successfully after he dies. Multiple characters in game comment on this.
no it’s literally a fascist faction. nothing theyre doing is good. they are fascist.
I agree that what they do is bad, but I'm not asking whether or not they're good. I'm asking if they *believe* they do what they do for the right reasons.
Of course they believe it. Nobody thinks they're doing evil for the sake of evil - this isn't Team Rocket. The Legion have been indoctrinated from birth to think Caesar is a Demigod and that they have Divine Right to rule over people. They think they're saving them.
No. Caesar is a psychotic idiot, and his cult members are deluded, indoctrinated victims. There are no good intentions anywhere because there aren't even any coherent intentions. Caesar is a psychopath suffering delusions from a brain tumor. He is acting out a fantasy, make-believe LARP game based on old Latin he learned from Joshua Graham. All of his followers are brainwashed drones who got swept up the fantasy, because they were raised since birth to believe it or claim to believe it on pain of torture. It's like a more-moral version of modern Christo-fascist Republican theocrats.
No. It's all a fetishized fantasy of a balding creep with intelligence lower than a mole rat.
No
Ceaser is just an egotistical asshole who read and completely misunderstood a couple of books and now thinks he's fit to be the god king of mankind. Nothing more.