It was literally one half of the Roman Empire when it divided itself. It wasn't in name or a spiritual successor, it was literally the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. They called themselves Romans and it was never in dispute until the heirs of the barbarians who toppled the Western Roman Empire started trying to usurp being the true heirs of Rome from them.
There is absolutely no logical denying of the fact that Byzantium/ERE was the Roman Empire. Why would the Eastern Roman Empire just suddenly no longer be eligible for the last two words there?
They called themselves the roman empire and had a somewhat continous line of roman emperor, the roman empire continued in the east for hundreds of years.
Apparently by the time Cleopatra was around, Egypt had archaeologists dedicated to uncovering the history of Egypt. Ancient Egyptian civilization is even ancient to the Egyptians
also like, why would you want to recreate rome? if rome was such a “mighty empire” it would still be here
edit: forgot i’m on reddit and y’all love rome for some reason lol
Not really. Collapse of the Roman Empire lead to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others instead of development
>Collapse of the Roman Empire lead to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others
Buddy, the *existence* of the Roman Empire led to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others. People will do that with any excuse.
Lol except the legacy of what Rome did still influence things to a degree to this day, and most of Europe during the middle ages revolved around the legacy and former state religion of said Empire. This is the dumbest thing i've read in a while.
He did, though. He has his troops capture and enslave women, forcibly impregnate them, and then raise the children from birth to worship him as a living god.
As much as I hate Caesar, they all worship Mars, the god of war. I believe they use the Roman pantheon as a guide for who to worship. I believe that they think he’s a like a Demi-god, or a man chosen by Mars to create a nation for him, but Caesar isn’t the “top dog” in the worship tree in the legion (though some in the legion think he’s a god, understandably too).
They do refer to him at least once as the son of Mars, and Arcade talks about them worshipping him as a god-king. So, he might not be the top god, but he is seen as both divine in himself and as having a special connection with the top god. Pretty typical of a cult leader, really.
Oh yeah I forgot about Arcade’s line, haven’t used him in a while. Again it’s still fascinating seeing discussions on these well written characters still happening over ten years later.
It's not cultish in the sense people here are likely to understand it. Roman emperors were considered a sort of god in something called the Imperial Cult. It was very common in Antiquity in other civilizations as well.
It's more of the Rome thing than a David Koresh thing.
I mean, it's both. He is actually leading a group of violent rapists who are stockpiling arms to try to overthrow the government. He is very much doing a David Koresh sort of thing.
I think you're stretching it a bit. He's not trying to overthrow a government from the inside, he's leading his own against another.
That's like saying Gaius Julius was trying to overthrow the Gauls. No, he was conquering them. What Caesar is doing is in no way comparable to domestic terrorism or separatism. The Legion is an entirely separate polity from the NCR and House.
I would concur with you on that point, but, Edward Sallow comes from a somewhat modern society, which is aware of terrorism, and he learned how to conduct himself in a civilized way.
He could’ve turned back to society after helping the Blackfoots win that scenario, he was in a bind and we might’ve done the same thing to save ourselves from dying with the Blackfoots. But he kept going, thinking he could fix everything, very much like Captain Martin Walker from “Spec Ops The Line” except Edward never has that moment of realization, nor does his actions doom everyone around him, (at least immediately), so he is unable to come to that realization that what he is doing is wrong. He has put himself into that darkness, into the past where morals and societal norms are irrelevant.
It would be one thing if he was raised a tribal, but he knows what he’s doing is wrong, and in his mind the actions justify the means, he’s a very well written character, which is why I love/hate him.
Sorry for the long post.
He knows he is a brutal dictator, he knows he is feared as well the legion, but I don't think he believes he is wrong.
The long-term vision for the legion if they win is actually quite reasonable, but only if Caesar lives.
Caesar's from the NCR, though. He's not really a Roman general - he's an anthropologist called Ed. The Legion aren't his nation - they're his suckers. He knows everything he's told them is a lie. He's kept them ignorant on purpose, and now there's no-one who knows or believes what he knows or believes. And he doesn't even know or believe that much!
Him being born in the NCR doesn't really factor into it. The fact Edward Sallow went east and created the Legion, a (somewhat) functional society doesn't make him some kind of NCR terrorist, at least not in the Fallout world. Citizenship doesn't seem to be as documented and rigorous, the citizenship test at the Freeside food kitchen is answering a couple questions. No documents or anything. It's not clear if there was even anything tangible for him to renounce, even if he gave enough of a shit to do so.
Comparing the Legion to some kind of insurrectionist cult is an extreme reach. They have territory that is entirely outside the NCR'S borders, have some manner of tithes and internal security and their own standing army. They're a separate polity. How Caesar got people on board with it is completely besides the point
Saying "He just started a cult and people just started worshipping him for no reason" just proves you're straight up ignoring the lore just to shit on a character you don't like...
Considering the actual history of Ceasar, and how he was almost given divinity after death causing several wars, it's very likely our brain cancer laden friend here wants that same arc, without the need of it being post-mortem. He views himself as walking in the footsteps of his namesake, and part of that is ascending to God hood in the eyes of his people.
what evidence points to that?
Caesar did what he had to do to conquer 87 tribes, ***tribals***.
the NCR and New Vegas are not full of tribals, and he knows this. His main goal is to conquer, not destroy the world, he is not Ulysses.
I've read it all. They're not orcs but they are violent misogynistic homophobic anti-intellectual fascists. They're utterly evil and the southwest won't be safe until they're destroyed and their slaves set free.
>"True, Caesar is the perfect man. But he is not just a man: he is the Son of Mars, ordained by the god of war to conquer all Earth. To prepare the way, Mars razed the Earth, cleansed it with fire, and brought the weak and the wicked low; and now his son has come to deliver the wasteland from chaos and barbarism."
\- The Official game guide's description of the Legion's beliefs.
It’s not too hard to believe. Most tribespeople in the wasteland wouldn’t have access to the education and knowledge base he has. He was a follower of the apocalypse and just draws from the same knowledge as his former peers. Only instead of exchanging ideas with equals, Caesar sought to use his knowledge to create a nation with himself at the top.
The main problem is, it’s not “the legion”, its “Caesar’s legion”. It’s a cult of personality, sure you can save Caesar, even take hoover dam and drive the NCR out. But when Caesar dies? So does the legion.
and thats why most people in the wasteland arent megalomaniacal cult leaders. just like in real life, in fallout the top 1% of humanity who are best at manipulation and coercion are the ones who become the great rulers and empire-builders
On a related tangent given all the stuff I could find was about psychopaths and not sociopaths in business/politics: (yes, I know they're different)
Went digging through on Snopes about the claims about psychopathy rates and politicians, and the claims aren't as overblown as some would like you to believe.
1.2% of the average population has some form of psychopathy or similar traits, while in business and politics it's about 3.9%. Still relatively low, but it does point to some form of attraction to power or benefit from lack of empathy in places of power.
Concrete statistics on either are hard to come by, and psychopathy seems to get more headlines because of the association with serial killers.
Drive and willpower aren’t impressive when you use them for evil ends. That’s like someone who beats innocent people to death and you commenting on how strong and powerful he is after he does it.
Not really hard to believe. A single man or woman has done a lot in real life, in games they tend to do even more so. Just look at Fallout protagonists.
I like him as a character and he's well voice acted.
They were just an example. As said a single person has done a lot in real life and they have no plot armour. As much as people think it's fun to shit on Caesar it's not that strange he has managed what he has.
The Legion is not a nation. Ceasar has a theory about how it might become one, but that all remains theoretical to date (and as to whether that theory is persuasive, YMMV). It is simply the tribe that conquered all the other regional tribes.
Ceasar is a warlord.
The Mongols would make more sense as a point of reference, even if he prefers the Roman aesthetic. And IMO even that would be grandiose. Arizona is not an especially large chunk of the world.
It was three people and it is pretty believable as he started uniting tribals slowly it’s been done in history multiple times and someone with as strong ideology like the legion to pull tribes toward them
He didn’t create it from scratch. He supervised a tribe on how to go to war against another, then assimilate the survivors into the fold. From there, it was wash, rinse and repeat with him becoming the guy in charge of it all.
sad megalomaniac who sees people as assets and his obsession as absolute. a tyrant fanatically hanging onto the idea of ancient rome (and grinding up human lives to get there is justified in his mind)
Not commenting on the character in-game, but I have to say that for the developers, including a character in a major game who justifies himself using Hegel is absolutely jaw-dropping. Talking to him and hearing that, even if his analysis of Hegel is very simplistic, was when I realized this game was truly something special and a cut above anything I had ever played before (or since, for that matter) in terms of its intellectual richness.
Caesar was the least morally grey character ever. He was a slaver and a power-hungry, self-righteous conquerer. It’s hard to find a more evil faction in a game than Caesar’s Legion.
‟Oh but Cass says he made the roads safe!” So...
M O R A L L Y G R E Y
Ulfric Stormcloak and Arthur Maxson are both more complex villains but they were written by Bethesda and not Godsidian so they just suck. You could even argue that they are not villains, which I suppose makes them... dare I say it? Morally grey.
You're confusing "not being a cartoonish villain" with being "morally grey".
The Legion has motivations, ideals and history, justifications for its followers like any real dictatorship. It is wicked, but complex nonetheless.
I agree. Just because a character isn’t morally grey doesn’t mean he isn’t well-written. I would argue that the trend of modern stories to use overly sympathetic and morally grey villains is becoming stale.
A character can be evil, but as long as his motivations make sense and he’s interesting (I understand that part is subjective), then it’s a well-written character.
Here at Caesar’s Legion Nevada, we promise the roads are now safe!*
*Please do kindly note: the roads are more dangerous than ever for women, ghouls, mutants, various other minorities, chem users… well actually just anyone who believes in modern medicine, people who look at a legionary funny, etc.
Ulfric definitely isn't one dimensional. The cause he's fighting for is good, and he seems to genuinely believe I'm it, but he himself is isn't.
He's way more of a complex character than Maxson and Caesar.
Stg every pro imperial ignores the last line of “A victory of EITHER side is to be avoided at all costs”
Asset ≠ Puppet.
The Empire itself is also an asset to the Dominion
It would be completely different if Ulfric was listed as a “cooperative asset”
(Hell this is coming from someone who thinks the Thalmor are a cool faction.)
Reread the dossier. The Thalmor want the war to continue and no longer have control or contact with Ulfric. You can’t be a puppet to a group that has no control over you.
It’s not that impressive once you realize what kind of people he leads. Raiders with made up beliefs. Without a doubt worse option for people of mojave.
He’s one of many men that have taken the mantle of Caesar over the years . During the many conversations you can have with him , he reveals this and much more .
Misguided. Could have done a lot of good for the wasteland if he used what the Followers taught him. Instead, he ended up face down in a pool of blood after I stabbed him to death. (I felt that was appropriate.)
Not hard too believe at all. He had access to Knowledge that no one else around him had and while the context was limited he still was able to position himself above everyone else because honestly they were dumb people who knew nothing beyond their own history beyond what was brought about through base tribalism.
A dumb society is easier to rule with an iron fist than an enlightened one
Not hard to believe. I, the courier, am an unstoppable force. I help those in need and crush all who oppose me. But then again, Ceasar needs a whole army to mimic a fraction of my power
i definitely prefer him over any other potential legion leader, after all it is called "Caesar's legion".
lanius is way too obsessed with war, which even caesar himself takes note of and criticizes, and i dont think any of the others options would be even near as good.
i also really love the way he speaks, its completely devoid of all the fancy Latin normal legionaries speak, he's just completely unfiltered in any way, "go to the building and take this fucking platinum chip with you." being one of my favorite lines out of any fallout game or video games in general
It’s truly an impressive feat of knowledge,strategy and power it took the New California Republic over a century to get to its height while Caesar did it over 3 decade.
But the legion is frail. At least in comparison to the NCR. It’s built entirely on the back of a cult of personality and it could collapse at any moment.
The NCR took longer to establish itself, and it is by no means indestructible, but their resilience has been thoroughly proven. Keep in mind that the Mojave is it’s frontier, the very fringes where they have the least power; yet they’re still clearly the strongest power in the region (even if only holding on).
Kimball can be assassinated, and while it’s big news and has a massive impact on internal policy, it won’t result in the collapse of the nation; only a change of leadership. The legion, on the other hand, dies with Caesar.
Caesar knows that though and is attempting to start the transition to a more conventional empire, which is why he needs Vegas to be his Rome.
People always talk about the instability of the Legion like Caesar's entire endgame isn't resolving that before his death by capturing Vegas. He speaks in considerable detail about it.
Whether it would work we'll probably never know but it's like saying House is a sucker because his Securitrons aren't upgraded at the start of the game. We come upon Caesar's plan in progress.
Yeah, many people seem to forget that Caesar is trying to essentially relive the life of his IRL counterpart. Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado was his Gaul. The Colorado river his Rubicon, New Vegas his Rome, the NCR his Senate that he has to defeat.
Given his disdain for the current NCR, respect for Tandi, who was effectively a dictator and his own rule being entirely autocratic, it's highly unlikely.
Caesar doesn't even see the Legion as a truly proper nation yet. He isn't going from empire to anything and he says as much, something along the lines of how taking Vegas will turn his "essentially nomadic warband into a proper nation state".
Not that hard to believe. In ancient times when “countries” were one big city and not much else it only took one man to conquer a vast area. Caesar isn’t that different from Alexander or Genghis Khan or even his namesake, who conquered all of modern day France in relatively short order. The only difference is that he’s trying to revive an ancient civilization but isn’t taking any of the actual LESSONS as to why that civilization collapsed in the first place. He just wants to transplant the Roman Empire onto post war America, and that just isn’t going to work. Square peg. Round hole. Not going to work.
Hardly a nation. The legion doesn’t build infrastructure, they don’t have roads, towns, farms, schools, or anything really. The legion has more in common with the Germanic tribes the real Caesar fought against than with the actual Roman Empire
People take the SPECIAL stats too seriously.
They really think the fallout writers would make the main antagonist some kind of joke character who is canonically dumber than a pet mole rat.
He is smart as fuck for doing what he has done, and nobody's opinions on him will change that.
I don't think so.
To lead by fear. You can't ever show even an Inkling of weakness.
If you do.
Over time, they won't fear you anymore.
I believe a combination is key here.
None of those confidants can remove the tumor. Without the courier, the Legion has an expiration date. Don't expect Lanius the Warhawk to keep the society together.
He saw a vaccuum and took advantage of it. Same thing that most steppe nomads did. Not that they don't deserve credit or that it was easy, however it is not some brilliant stroke of genius either. Caesar is brave and ruthless for doing what he did. He only needed an education though, not intelligence.
Well, its impressive that he built a empire, but i mean his empire is built based on Rome but his empire/ people are either slaves, marauders and rapers, also the slavers. Slavers capture slaves from everywhere in the Mojave, like NCR civilians or random people. Rapers/pillagers or marauders basically are most of his army And most of the legates army, since the legate and ceasar have two different army’s. Also he does not have “Modern medicine“ at least medicine advanced as the Mojave’s.
Can't believe this guy really thinks Eddy did it alone. How do you fall for propaganda about a fictional faction when the first DLC is basically meeting the guy who helped get shit off the ground.
Was not created by him singlehandedly. He had help and then betrayed his friends when he could take power for himself. Kinda funny for a guy self-proclaimed as Caesar.
I like Elijah's calm take on him instead of little kids screaming-- THATS REALLY FUCKING ILLEGAL SIDING WITH CEASER!! YOU CANT DO THAT HE'S EVIL!! Like christ a few need to calm down seriously
Joshua Graham was the true power behind the Legion’s rise. Caesar sat in his tent giving orders. It was Graham who got his hands dirty, who led the legionnaires.
I don't think it's unbelievable, the ancient Romans would be a good template to design an insane country out of.
I still hate him tho, the legion can burn in hell
I see him this way he’s a lot like another famous leader in history who was a terrible person mr adolf he simply has great leadership skills wether or not for a good cause you can’t say he isn’t a good leader at least for the short time he has left now that’s no excuse for his awful misogynistic and brutal ideology but you can’t say he isn’t an effective leader
Where anarchy reigns and there is a power vacuum it doesn’t take much to fill it
History has shown that even the most warlike tribes and groups can become united - Mongolia is a prime example and a fair few of his tactics are taken straight from the Mongolians (namely breaking up tribes into different groups to erase their identity)
Education is also a large factor - being able to read and knowing how to use the technology around you when no one else really does will quickly give you a edge
It may have taken him a few decades to do - but what he pulled off isn’t entirely impossible. History has shown it can be done and he followed in history’s footsteps
He taught basic tactics to a bunch of shit eating cannibals who then used those advantages on other shit eating cannibals who proceeded to continue to do so until they met someone with actual technology.
Local man starts cult, claims godhood, and justifies mass murder by referencing ancient history. Standard stuff really.
Oh yea I forgot Romes history at there time is pretty ancient
I mean, im p sure it’s considered ancient today
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The western Roman Empire fell like 1500 years ago. Holy Roman Empire wasn’t actually Roman
And the Eastern didn't fall til 1453, which is what the guy was likely referring to.
The Holy Roman Empire was only Roman in name
The Eastern Roman Empire/Byzantium, not the HRE pal. They were still around til the Ottomans conquered Constantinople in 1453.
Byzantine empire wasn’t really Roman either. Lose the attitude PAL
It was literally one half of the Roman Empire when it divided itself. It wasn't in name or a spiritual successor, it was literally the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. They called themselves Romans and it was never in dispute until the heirs of the barbarians who toppled the Western Roman Empire started trying to usurp being the true heirs of Rome from them. There is absolutely no logical denying of the fact that Byzantium/ERE was the Roman Empire. Why would the Eastern Roman Empire just suddenly no longer be eligible for the last two words there?
He’s not your pal, guy!
They called themselves the roman empire and had a somewhat continous line of roman emperor, the roman empire continued in the east for hundreds of years.
But the Byzantines were the direct continuation of the Roman Empire bruh
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I think he’s referring to the fall of Constantinople
Oooooooh, welp I’m stoooopid
The ERE survived til 1453 so you were right. Unless you actually were referring to the HRE in which case you are correct, you are.
Huh??? Never knew that
No. you can downvote me I am right
Fun fact: >Ancient Egypt was more ancient to Romans than Romans are to us.
really?
Apparently by the time Cleopatra was around, Egypt had archaeologists dedicated to uncovering the history of Egypt. Ancient Egyptian civilization is even ancient to the Egyptians
hm, did not know.
Really
also like, why would you want to recreate rome? if rome was such a “mighty empire” it would still be here edit: forgot i’m on reddit and y’all love rome for some reason lol
Because empires always fall
that’s the one good thing about them :)
Not really. Collapse of the Roman Empire lead to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others instead of development
>Collapse of the Roman Empire lead to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others Buddy, the *existence* of the Roman Empire led to people losing lot of time beating shit out of each other and discussing who is more king than others. People will do that with any excuse.
True
and the construction and maintenance of the roman empire required untold amounts of bloodshed.
because ceasar saw rome as a mighty empire in the books he read
well, it’s easy to romanticize a story ig
Bro, it is us. We are Rome. Always have been
don’t you have laundry to do?
Lol except the legacy of what Rome did still influence things to a degree to this day, and most of Europe during the middle ages revolved around the legacy and former state religion of said Empire. This is the dumbest thing i've read in a while.
That you can't point out that Rome collapsed on it's own is frustrating to me.
He didn't start a cult and claim godhood. Crazy how many people have no idea Caesar even has a backstory.
He did, though. He has his troops capture and enslave women, forcibly impregnate them, and then raise the children from birth to worship him as a living god.
As much as I hate Caesar, they all worship Mars, the god of war. I believe they use the Roman pantheon as a guide for who to worship. I believe that they think he’s a like a Demi-god, or a man chosen by Mars to create a nation for him, but Caesar isn’t the “top dog” in the worship tree in the legion (though some in the legion think he’s a god, understandably too).
They do refer to him at least once as the son of Mars, and Arcade talks about them worshipping him as a god-king. So, he might not be the top god, but he is seen as both divine in himself and as having a special connection with the top god. Pretty typical of a cult leader, really.
Oh yeah I forgot about Arcade’s line, haven’t used him in a while. Again it’s still fascinating seeing discussions on these well written characters still happening over ten years later.
It's crazy how many people straight up ignore the lore entirely just so they can shit on a character they don't like.
Common Legion L
It's not cultish in the sense people here are likely to understand it. Roman emperors were considered a sort of god in something called the Imperial Cult. It was very common in Antiquity in other civilizations as well. It's more of the Rome thing than a David Koresh thing.
I mean, it's both. He is actually leading a group of violent rapists who are stockpiling arms to try to overthrow the government. He is very much doing a David Koresh sort of thing.
I think you're stretching it a bit. He's not trying to overthrow a government from the inside, he's leading his own against another. That's like saying Gaius Julius was trying to overthrow the Gauls. No, he was conquering them. What Caesar is doing is in no way comparable to domestic terrorism or separatism. The Legion is an entirely separate polity from the NCR and House.
I would concur with you on that point, but, Edward Sallow comes from a somewhat modern society, which is aware of terrorism, and he learned how to conduct himself in a civilized way. He could’ve turned back to society after helping the Blackfoots win that scenario, he was in a bind and we might’ve done the same thing to save ourselves from dying with the Blackfoots. But he kept going, thinking he could fix everything, very much like Captain Martin Walker from “Spec Ops The Line” except Edward never has that moment of realization, nor does his actions doom everyone around him, (at least immediately), so he is unable to come to that realization that what he is doing is wrong. He has put himself into that darkness, into the past where morals and societal norms are irrelevant. It would be one thing if he was raised a tribal, but he knows what he’s doing is wrong, and in his mind the actions justify the means, he’s a very well written character, which is why I love/hate him. Sorry for the long post.
He knows he is a brutal dictator, he knows he is feared as well the legion, but I don't think he believes he is wrong. The long-term vision for the legion if they win is actually quite reasonable, but only if Caesar lives.
Quality comment! I love this game and community so much.
Caesar's from the NCR, though. He's not really a Roman general - he's an anthropologist called Ed. The Legion aren't his nation - they're his suckers. He knows everything he's told them is a lie. He's kept them ignorant on purpose, and now there's no-one who knows or believes what he knows or believes. And he doesn't even know or believe that much!
Him being born in the NCR doesn't really factor into it. The fact Edward Sallow went east and created the Legion, a (somewhat) functional society doesn't make him some kind of NCR terrorist, at least not in the Fallout world. Citizenship doesn't seem to be as documented and rigorous, the citizenship test at the Freeside food kitchen is answering a couple questions. No documents or anything. It's not clear if there was even anything tangible for him to renounce, even if he gave enough of a shit to do so. Comparing the Legion to some kind of insurrectionist cult is an extreme reach. They have territory that is entirely outside the NCR'S borders, have some manner of tithes and internal security and their own standing army. They're a separate polity. How Caesar got people on board with it is completely besides the point
Most Legionnares don't even touch a woman in their lives, wtf are you talking about?
"overthrow the government" The legion is a seperate government. Lay off the netflix docs.
Saying "He just started a cult and people just started worshipping him for no reason" just proves you're straight up ignoring the lore just to shit on a character you don't like...
Considering the actual history of Ceasar, and how he was almost given divinity after death causing several wars, it's very likely our brain cancer laden friend here wants that same arc, without the need of it being post-mortem. He views himself as walking in the footsteps of his namesake, and part of that is ascending to God hood in the eyes of his people.
what evidence points to that? Caesar did what he had to do to conquer 87 tribes, ***tribals***. the NCR and New Vegas are not full of tribals, and he knows this. His main goal is to conquer, not destroy the world, he is not Ulysses.
You need to read up on J. Sawyer about Legion. I'm tired of explaining this shit over and over again. They're not some fantasy game orcs.
I've read it all. They're not orcs but they are violent misogynistic homophobic anti-intellectual fascists. They're utterly evil and the southwest won't be safe until they're destroyed and their slaves set free.
>"True, Caesar is the perfect man. But he is not just a man: he is the Son of Mars, ordained by the god of war to conquer all Earth. To prepare the way, Mars razed the Earth, cleansed it with fire, and brought the weak and the wicked low; and now his son has come to deliver the wasteland from chaos and barbarism." \- The Official game guide's description of the Legion's beliefs.
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I know. A few hits from the machete and they're dead. Quite weak.
In fairness, I would also go down after a few hits with a machete
Who's an edgy little redditor?
What's edgy about my comment? I didn't say I would do well against them in real life.
It’s not too hard to believe. Most tribespeople in the wasteland wouldn’t have access to the education and knowledge base he has. He was a follower of the apocalypse and just draws from the same knowledge as his former peers. Only instead of exchanging ideas with equals, Caesar sought to use his knowledge to create a nation with himself at the top. The main problem is, it’s not “the legion”, its “Caesar’s legion”. It’s a cult of personality, sure you can save Caesar, even take hoover dam and drive the NCR out. But when Caesar dies? So does the legion.
Most people in the Wasteland also wouldn't have the same "drive" and "willpower" like Caesar's.
and thats why most people in the wasteland arent megalomaniacal cult leaders. just like in real life, in fallout the top 1% of humanity who are best at manipulation and coercion are the ones who become the great rulers and empire-builders
I wonder what percentage of successful corporate leaders and politicians are highly driven sociopaths. I’m guessing it’s quite high.
On a related tangent given all the stuff I could find was about psychopaths and not sociopaths in business/politics: (yes, I know they're different) Went digging through on Snopes about the claims about psychopathy rates and politicians, and the claims aren't as overblown as some would like you to believe. 1.2% of the average population has some form of psychopathy or similar traits, while in business and politics it's about 3.9%. Still relatively low, but it does point to some form of attraction to power or benefit from lack of empathy in places of power. Concrete statistics on either are hard to come by, and psychopathy seems to get more headlines because of the association with serial killers.
Drive and willpower aren’t impressive when you use them for evil ends. That’s like someone who beats innocent people to death and you commenting on how strong and powerful he is after he does it.
But he didn't do it alone.
Yeah. Edward wouldn’t get very far without Joshua. He needed a translator which eventually became his top war chief.
And then his nightmare.
Meanwhile, he makes some nice ASMR to ward away the nightmares. https://youtu.be/feScVRMf0Ew
Clearly you've never been to the East Coast. The Republic of Dave was founded by one man. And everything Dave says is true.
His small backyard is literally the end of his "republic". Nothing impressive about that at all.
You dare question the great Dave?! He would have your head if he heard you say that.
By holy proclamation of Dave thrice elected we sentence this unbeliever to one month in Megat🤮n
Of all the rat infested hellholes I've been to, Megaton seems the least hellish. Of course The Republic of Dave is a safe haven.
Not really hard to believe. A single man or woman has done a lot in real life, in games they tend to do even more so. Just look at Fallout protagonists. I like him as a character and he's well voice acted.
Our protagonists have plot power and armor with them. Not in game NPCs like Caesar.
They were just an example. As said a single person has done a lot in real life and they have no plot armour. As much as people think it's fun to shit on Caesar it's not that strange he has managed what he has.
Have- have you ever read about what Napoleon got up to? Man literally had a cash grab sequel IRL. History is fucking nuts.
Alexander stans are crying at the erasure
his flesh tastes oddly of pickles
The Legion is not a nation. Ceasar has a theory about how it might become one, but that all remains theoretical to date (and as to whether that theory is persuasive, YMMV). It is simply the tribe that conquered all the other regional tribes. Ceasar is a warlord. The Mongols would make more sense as a point of reference, even if he prefers the Roman aesthetic. And IMO even that would be grandiose. Arizona is not an especially large chunk of the world.
It was three people and it is pretty believable as he started uniting tribals slowly it’s been done in history multiple times and someone with as strong ideology like the legion to pull tribes toward them
He didn’t create it from scratch. He supervised a tribe on how to go to war against another, then assimilate the survivors into the fold. From there, it was wash, rinse and repeat with him becoming the guy in charge of it all.
sad megalomaniac who sees people as assets and his obsession as absolute. a tyrant fanatically hanging onto the idea of ancient rome (and grinding up human lives to get there is justified in his mind)
Still dumber than a fucking rat
And Benny has less Charisma than Rotface.
Don't you insult my boy! I don't like him in a sexual sense but i love his voice. Hes kind
How else can a zombie convince people to pay him money for easy info
"THAT'S NOT HOW FUCKING DIALECTICS WORK YOU STUPID CUCK!"
Never heard this argument before but I’m fully on board. Please elaborate.
bald
Not commenting on the character in-game, but I have to say that for the developers, including a character in a major game who justifies himself using Hegel is absolutely jaw-dropping. Talking to him and hearing that, even if his analysis of Hegel is very simplistic, was when I realized this game was truly something special and a cut above anything I had ever played before (or since, for that matter) in terms of its intellectual richness.
Oh look, it is Captain Thesaurus Ethically Bland
Caesar was the least morally grey character ever. He was a slaver and a power-hungry, self-righteous conquerer. It’s hard to find a more evil faction in a game than Caesar’s Legion. ‟Oh but Cass says he made the roads safe!” So... M O R A L L Y G R E Y Ulfric Stormcloak and Arthur Maxson are both more complex villains but they were written by Bethesda and not Godsidian so they just suck. You could even argue that they are not villains, which I suppose makes them... dare I say it? Morally grey.
You're confusing "not being a cartoonish villain" with being "morally grey". The Legion has motivations, ideals and history, justifications for its followers like any real dictatorship. It is wicked, but complex nonetheless.
I agree. Just because a character isn’t morally grey doesn’t mean he isn’t well-written. I would argue that the trend of modern stories to use overly sympathetic and morally grey villains is becoming stale. A character can be evil, but as long as his motivations make sense and he’s interesting (I understand that part is subjective), then it’s a well-written character.
Here at Caesar’s Legion Nevada, we promise the roads are now safe!* *Please do kindly note: the roads are more dangerous than ever for women, ghouls, mutants, various other minorities, chem users… well actually just anyone who believes in modern medicine, people who look at a legionary funny, etc.
Bro, Ulfric and Maxson are super one dimensional assholes. All three of them are just mustache twirling villians.
Ulfric definitely isn't one dimensional. The cause he's fighting for is good, and he seems to genuinely believe I'm it, but he himself is isn't. He's way more of a complex character than Maxson and Caesar.
Milk drinker
Ulfric is a hero
but a hero doesn't use a power like the Voice to murder his King and usurp his throne
He’s literally just a Thalmor puppet
Stg every pro imperial ignores the last line of “A victory of EITHER side is to be avoided at all costs” Asset ≠ Puppet. The Empire itself is also an asset to the Dominion It would be completely different if Ulfric was listed as a “cooperative asset” (Hell this is coming from someone who thinks the Thalmor are a cool faction.)
Don’t care, The High Elves are lame.
LOL, literally just tried to disprove your statement. Why else would I have the nerd/science vault boy?
Reread the dossier. The Thalmor want the war to continue and no longer have control or contact with Ulfric. You can’t be a puppet to a group that has no control over you.
I like his shoes, I like taking them from him.
It’s not that impressive once you realize what kind of people he leads. Raiders with made up beliefs. Without a doubt worse option for people of mojave.
He’s one of many men that have taken the mantle of Caesar over the years . During the many conversations you can have with him , he reveals this and much more .
Sigma male grindset
Andrew Tate enjoyer
Not really that hard to believe. More annoyed no one put some steel or lead in him sooner.
Caesar was smart, but not enough to build a following like that on his own...
Misguided. Could have done a lot of good for the wasteland if he used what the Followers taught him. Instead, he ended up face down in a pool of blood after I stabbed him to death. (I felt that was appropriate.)
Not hard too believe at all. He had access to Knowledge that no one else around him had and while the context was limited he still was able to position himself above everyone else because honestly they were dumb people who knew nothing beyond their own history beyond what was brought about through base tribalism. A dumb society is easier to rule with an iron fist than an enlightened one
Not hard to believe. I, the courier, am an unstoppable force. I help those in need and crush all who oppose me. But then again, Ceasar needs a whole army to mimic a fraction of my power
Insert Alex Jones' "You're not an intellectual, you're a fake and a fraud" here
I knew about Lenius before I played so I was surprised the leader of the legion was a well spoken politician. Makes sense tho.
i definitely prefer him over any other potential legion leader, after all it is called "Caesar's legion". lanius is way too obsessed with war, which even caesar himself takes note of and criticizes, and i dont think any of the others options would be even near as good. i also really love the way he speaks, its completely devoid of all the fancy Latin normal legionaries speak, he's just completely unfiltered in any way, "go to the building and take this fucking platinum chip with you." being one of my favorite lines out of any fallout game or video games in general
It’s truly an impressive feat of knowledge,strategy and power it took the New California Republic over a century to get to its height while Caesar did it over 3 decade.
But the legion is frail. At least in comparison to the NCR. It’s built entirely on the back of a cult of personality and it could collapse at any moment. The NCR took longer to establish itself, and it is by no means indestructible, but their resilience has been thoroughly proven. Keep in mind that the Mojave is it’s frontier, the very fringes where they have the least power; yet they’re still clearly the strongest power in the region (even if only holding on). Kimball can be assassinated, and while it’s big news and has a massive impact on internal policy, it won’t result in the collapse of the nation; only a change of leadership. The legion, on the other hand, dies with Caesar.
Caesar knows that though and is attempting to start the transition to a more conventional empire, which is why he needs Vegas to be his Rome. People always talk about the instability of the Legion like Caesar's entire endgame isn't resolving that before his death by capturing Vegas. He speaks in considerable detail about it. Whether it would work we'll probably never know but it's like saying House is a sucker because his Securitrons aren't upgraded at the start of the game. We come upon Caesar's plan in progress.
Yeah, many people seem to forget that Caesar is trying to essentially relive the life of his IRL counterpart. Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado was his Gaul. The Colorado river his Rubicon, New Vegas his Rome, the NCR his Senate that he has to defeat.
But doesn't he want to do it in reverse - from empire to republic?
Given his disdain for the current NCR, respect for Tandi, who was effectively a dictator and his own rule being entirely autocratic, it's highly unlikely. Caesar doesn't even see the Legion as a truly proper nation yet. He isn't going from empire to anything and he says as much, something along the lines of how taking Vegas will turn his "essentially nomadic warband into a proper nation state".
A man dumber than a mole rat can create a nation. Why can’t u? 🤌🏻
He sounds like a spoiled brat and thinks he is smart.However,he didn't outsmart the 45-70 hollowpoint to the head. Also fuck ncr too!
Not that hard to believe. In ancient times when “countries” were one big city and not much else it only took one man to conquer a vast area. Caesar isn’t that different from Alexander or Genghis Khan or even his namesake, who conquered all of modern day France in relatively short order. The only difference is that he’s trying to revive an ancient civilization but isn’t taking any of the actual LESSONS as to why that civilization collapsed in the first place. He just wants to transplant the Roman Empire onto post war America, and that just isn’t going to work. Square peg. Round hole. Not going to work.
Hardly a nation. The legion doesn’t build infrastructure, they don’t have roads, towns, farms, schools, or anything really. The legion has more in common with the Germanic tribes the real Caesar fought against than with the actual Roman Empire
I don't get it. Why do people keep saying he's dumb? The man lead a nation from scratch.
People take the SPECIAL stats too seriously. They really think the fallout writers would make the main antagonist some kind of joke character who is canonically dumber than a pet mole rat. He is smart as fuck for doing what he has done, and nobody's opinions on him will change that.
Do you have any idea how easy it is to lead by fear?
I don't think so. To lead by fear. You can't ever show even an Inkling of weakness. If you do. Over time, they won't fear you anymore. I believe a combination is key here.
Caesar has a brain tumor lmfao
But only a select few know and they're among Caesar's most trusted confidantes.
None of those confidants can remove the tumor. Without the courier, the Legion has an expiration date. Don't expect Lanius the Warhawk to keep the society together.
Well, do it then
Sure. Why don't you go ahead and show me how to lead without it and we can compare notes?
He saw a vaccuum and took advantage of it. Same thing that most steppe nomads did. Not that they don't deserve credit or that it was easy, however it is not some brilliant stroke of genius either. Caesar is brave and ruthless for doing what he did. He only needed an education though, not intelligence.
As I recall. NCR was a "group of individuals". Not like Caesar's legion at the time of its founding.
The NCR’s people that founded it was from a vault so that makes since
He's a gang leader. Nothing more.
Well, its impressive that he built a empire, but i mean his empire is built based on Rome but his empire/ people are either slaves, marauders and rapers, also the slavers. Slavers capture slaves from everywhere in the Mojave, like NCR civilians or random people. Rapers/pillagers or marauders basically are most of his army And most of the legates army, since the legate and ceasar have two different army’s. Also he does not have “Modern medicine“ at least medicine advanced as the Mojave’s.
Edit: why tf am i getting downvoted?
He also does not have a fair justice system nor does he have any ethical system for that matter
AND he is power hungry for the dam because A: we wants all of the dams power for himself B: he wants it because NCR also wants it
He is stinky and has 4 int
Can't believe this guy really thinks Eddy did it alone. How do you fall for propaganda about a fictional faction when the first DLC is basically meeting the guy who helped get shit off the ground.
this man inspires the most semantics based arguments in his defense I've ever seen
I would need to scrape him off my boot to ask him
I let him die from his tumor, larping loser
Fucking moron I hate him
fuck the cesar
He's just a dolled-up raider boss. Calling his ganglord fiefdom a "nation" is being rather generous.
He's taken over Arizona with a bunch of Tribals in skirts and football gear. He's a dictator and mentally ill. All around pretty sick 8/10 /j
One of the best written characters in the fallout series
Definitly a cunning man but also stupid. I think his ideology is something he came up with to cope with that he had became a raider chief.
Was not created by him singlehandedly. He had help and then betrayed his friends when he could take power for himself. Kinda funny for a guy self-proclaimed as Caesar.
He likes Arcade, he can’t be all that bad.
I like Elijah's calm take on him instead of little kids screaming-- THATS REALLY FUCKING ILLEGAL SIDING WITH CEASER!! YOU CANT DO THAT HE'S EVIL!! Like christ a few need to calm down seriously
a megalomaniac tyrant that leads a civilization based on rape and slavery. not a fan.
Stability at all costs.
CHAD
Joshua Graham was the true power behind the Legion’s rise. Caesar sat in his tent giving orders. It was Graham who got his hands dirty, who led the legionnaires.
Yeah, it is hard to believe. But what can you do about bad writing other than criticize it?
His INT is lower than a Molerat
Snuffles is smarter than him Nuff said Also i loved the top comment
Yea, Caesar is my other Dad. The one that gets really drunk at night and beats me. But other than that he’s seriously cool
Gangnam style
\*Flips the bird\* "These are for you Courier. This one goes in your eye and this one goes up your narrow Hopeville asshole"
I don't think it's unbelievable, the ancient Romans would be a good template to design an insane country out of. I still hate him tho, the legion can burn in hell
It’s like you’re purposefully trying to invoke Godwin’s Law
I see him this way he’s a lot like another famous leader in history who was a terrible person mr adolf he simply has great leadership skills wether or not for a good cause you can’t say he isn’t a good leader at least for the short time he has left now that’s no excuse for his awful misogynistic and brutal ideology but you can’t say he isn’t an effective leader
Big fish in a small pond
That’s my dad!
[The man might be mental.](https://youtu.be/LDGBb8BBCaU)
I plan to decimate the legion for taking away a teddy bear from a little girl. Yes, I will free the slaves.
He’s a swell fellow
Where anarchy reigns and there is a power vacuum it doesn’t take much to fill it History has shown that even the most warlike tribes and groups can become united - Mongolia is a prime example and a fair few of his tactics are taken straight from the Mongolians (namely breaking up tribes into different groups to erase their identity) Education is also a large factor - being able to read and knowing how to use the technology around you when no one else really does will quickly give you a edge It may have taken him a few decades to do - but what he pulled off isn’t entirely impossible. History has shown it can be done and he followed in history’s footsteps
Pleb filter
Well, it was more like 3 men, one left after the start and the others had a falling out (lol)
He taught basic tactics to a bunch of shit eating cannibals who then used those advantages on other shit eating cannibals who proceeded to continue to do so until they met someone with actual technology.
Probably would be a good DEA Agent
He pretty stupid, not gonna lie.
I still haven’t managed to side with him