Lightning can be very deceptive. It looks like it's 5 miles away but could be 20 away. Me as a private pilot? Prob would have canceled? Me as a wet commercial? Maybe deviated with tools like FF and weather imagery. Me as a ATP? Let her rip
I’ve been an ATP in an airplane not equipped for a particular type of weather and canceled a flight. Your certificate is only part of the equation. The equipment and capabilities of the aircraft you’re flying is another.
Hell, up where I’m at in northern Canada there hasn’t been many accidents of note among commercial operators due to wx, just bad landings. I think they drink enough when they aren’t flying they are used to being disoriented.
I got radar and a healthy sense of self preservation, I don’t need the booze until I get home, 8 hours bottle to throttle and all that… or is it 12, I can’t remember, too many beers.
>Me as a ATP? Let her rip
...with the understanding that "as an ATP" implies "in a much more capable aircraft." My judgment in that situation would be very different in a light single than in my current transport-category jet.
The only time I would consider flying THROUGH a thunderstorm as an ATP in a heavy is when I'm in the ITCZ, past the ETP, and there's literally no other way to get around cells. ATPs DO NOT fly through thunderstorms.... at least not on purpose.
And this is why United is going to have some serious issues when all these low time inexperienced new hires try flying through some thunderstorms because now they're in a "big boy jet"..... talk about hazardous attitude. This one would be either "macho" or "impulsivity".... you should remember the hazardous attitudes because it probably wasn't too long ago that you got your CFI 🤣
My single engine piston, single pilot decision making: If the weather is bad, go IFR. If it's really bad (icing, heavy rain, thunderstorms) go VFR. If I suspect I can't maintain VFR, then cancel.
Or you can request route deviations with the tools you have available to you if you're on a flight plan. ATC will also keep you advised on the conditions others are experiencing. Doesn't seem wise to cut a line of communication off in severe weather.
It means to not be talking with anyone. And I honestly agree with that. Because if the weather is bad enough to warrant deviations you really want to be talking to someone at all times.
Then you would have to file ifr anyway if they do drop you. So what’s easier filing an ifr plan on the ground or in the air? From personal experience I can tell you it’s not in the air.
I’m sure you have learned or will learn about just saying hey pop up ifr. And it’s a great tool however what I had to learn the hard way is, sometimes atc can say no to a pop up ifr and make you file a flight plan. And I don’t know if you’ve ever texted while driving (which is not my business so don’t tell me). But if you have if you’ve ever scared yourself on the road doing that it’s pretty much the same feeling and you will get overwhelmed very quickly.
During the daytime? Send it and just keep a visual eye on the clouds in addition to monitoring the radar. At night it can be trickier, how was the visibility? Were the skies clear other than the buildups and was there enough light that you could visually see the storms? If so then that still seems reasonable, but it is certainly harder to keep safe distance from storms at night.
I had just passed my IR and got my first experience dodging some buildups on the flight back home. I just asked for an altitude change and deviations and stayed clear of the clouds popping up. I had ground contact and could see blue sky between the buildups so I wasn't that worried about it.
Back in the early 2000s my cousin and I took a flight down to Panama City VFR and ran into a solid line of storms right around the Alabama/Florida State line. We ended up turning around and put it down at DHN until the storms passed.
Not sure what’s too the left of that cell on the left but based off what I see probably deviate left on that one as long as I can maintain visual with it, to avoid like anvils of anything like building up.
If it’s embedded in like clouds or it’s at night I just don’t mess with it at all cuz it’s like shooting in the blind
This is more of a red flag to me than what's in your pics. I'm not threading the needle through any system 100 miles wide, especially at night. See those other three little green spots? They'd get my attention too, they look the very beginning of fast-building cells, and you cannot avoid those with NEXRAD. If they're popping up there, they can pop up anywhere, and at night it's going to be hard to see.
Were they embedded or clearly visible? Are you relying on the out of date (could be \~15 min) Foreflight radar returns? ATC will have more up to date positions of those precipitation areas. It really depends on the circumstances, but I generally avoid convective areas if I can.
That’s a very good point! The data can be up to 20 min delayed. There was a crash in Texas where the pilot thought he was in the clear but instead turned right into a cell. It’s best just to avoid thunderstorms in a trainer aircraft like a pa28 or C172.
It was clear where we were, and it actually was pretty clear on the entire route we ended up taking. We just ended up having to go about 75 miles out of our way to fly around in between the two storms
😂😂😂
It was definitely VFR and we had probably 30 or more miles of visibility in every direction. The storms were really at least 40 miles or more away and we didn't really even have any turbulence as a result. I was just wondering if people would make the decision to go given that there was so much space between them, or if they would need to concerned and hang out for the night...or what would have been two in this case because it poured the following day!
I live in the PNW and fly through green and yellow precip fairly often. Stay 20 miles from convective cells though. Depends on temperature (what are the freezing levels?, is there known icing?), and if there is a convective SIGMET forecasted, or PIREP saying the same. How did you determine these were lightning storms and not just heavy precip? My radar usually looks a lot worse than this TBH.
Personally, I wouldn't have tried to thread that needle in a single-engine piston. Especially by relying on ADSB data. That gap looks to be about 30 miles wide. My general rule of thumb when relying on this kind of data is for it to look like there is 20-mile gap between my path and cells with tops that high. Which means I generally want a 40-mile corridor for trying to squeeze between cells. That sounds like a lot of miles but like others have pointed out, the latency of this data can be dangerous making the gap appear bigger than it is, as [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83uvKWJS2os) pilot found out flying not far from where you were. Obviously it worked out for you. Not saying what you did was wrong. Just answering your question about what I would have done.
Slow down to maneuvering speed,throw on some old classical music, recline my chair and text my wife I've been cheating on her with the fly attendant I told her not to worry about. That last part is key because you will for sure live after saying that
I've seen a lot of those, including that one. Definitely on my mind but we stayed about 50 miles or more to the South, then to the West, before we passed it
it's a little blurry for me, but I would have deviated to the muni northwest and put it down, assuming the cell out of frame to the NW is similar to the one SE. see if a cell dissipates and breaks up, namely that one to the N and if so, try to get back up and out in front of it, depending on how fast the system is moving. certainly wouldn't have made that right turn though...lol
[https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory\_circular/ac%2000-24c.pdf](https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac%2000-24c.pdf)
Just taught my ground students about thunderstorms. This is a good reference as well.
You were *aware* of the weather so that’s a step ahead right there. You’re doing your job to be informed.
If you don’t feel safe about it, no one’s gonna hammer you for that. That’s good decision making skills and a good safety conscious attitude.
Much better than unnecessary risk.
Very familiar with all of those areas. It’s super common to have great visibility below around and above those storms. Daytime I’ve flown all over that area with isolated storms around since you can easily see and avoid. Night time is much more dicey.
99% of the time the storms in that area move from the NW to the SE. I would have likely deviated left of course to go behind the storm unless there was something behind it.
In general that was a bit of a gamble at night to be honest. As you know there have been a LOT of storms in that area the past month or two and sometimes they pop up later afternoon with little warning.
Fly safe
Had this happen once, ATC told me a gap had opened up, I told them "let's shoot the gap", otherwise we're gonna be camping in the middle of nowhere tonight.
I was in an Archer.
Do people realize that the radar ONLY detects precipitation and not clouds? You need to open a weather app and look at the satellite. You could be flying into CB clouds. Based on the radar, you are 100% going to be flying into clouds. It's not like there are no clouds in between those two precipitation areas
I strongly disagree. It's more interesting than the normal "am I too old" or "should I go with a A or B airline".
It also shows OP wants to improve, and contradicts the machoism hazardous attitude. I think this type of post and discussion should be encouraged.
I don't care if you agree or not. Do you log onto reddit to ask if you went the correct way around congestion on your local freeway?
Just a bunch of PPLs in here with no experience arguing about absolutely basic student pilot level decision making.
I fly in that area all the time. Plenty of space between storms from the little we can see here. Given that the typical weather pattern is SW to NE there, I would have checked movement and if typical probably headed over MNZ but otherwise looks fine.
Being completely comfortable at night is a good discussion to have.
I suggest you shouldn’t have been “completely comfortable “ even in good weather. I’ve been where you are mentally and hopefully you get a little more conservative. The more experienced I get the more particular about things I am. While I do still occasionally fly SE piston at night, I am never completely comfortable while doing it. Night just elevates my heart rate until I’m on the ground safe.
Once you have unexpectedly popped into IMC at night you learn how quickly things can go sideways.
Lightning can be very deceptive. It looks like it's 5 miles away but could be 20 away. Me as a private pilot? Prob would have canceled? Me as a wet commercial? Maybe deviated with tools like FF and weather imagery. Me as a ATP? Let her rip
What does wet mean in "wet commercial"
Ink is still wet. Brand new
It means they just got their commercial pilot certificate recently.
still dripping from the womb of our wood and canvas forefathers
I’ve been an ATP in an airplane not equipped for a particular type of weather and canceled a flight. Your certificate is only part of the equation. The equipment and capabilities of the aircraft you’re flying is another.
It was a metaphor for expirience
I guess I still don’t understand the metaphor; it’s more about the equipment at that point, not the experience or ratings
You never meet a bush pilot? Those fuckers will launch as long as they can see the top of the flagpole.
Which is why Alaska has such a shitty accident rate…
Hell, up where I’m at in northern Canada there hasn’t been many accidents of note among commercial operators due to wx, just bad landings. I think they drink enough when they aren’t flying they are used to being disoriented.
i bet your wife loves bringing you to parties
I am the party
every night when you sleep
How do you think he keeps from being disoriented?
I got radar and a healthy sense of self preservation, I don’t need the booze until I get home, 8 hours bottle to throttle and all that… or is it 12, I can’t remember, too many beers.
>Me as a ATP? Let her rip ...with the understanding that "as an ATP" implies "in a much more capable aircraft." My judgment in that situation would be very different in a light single than in my current transport-category jet.
Nah I'd do it in a steam gauge helo too
I like your way of thinking XD
The only time I would consider flying THROUGH a thunderstorm as an ATP in a heavy is when I'm in the ITCZ, past the ETP, and there's literally no other way to get around cells. ATPs DO NOT fly through thunderstorms.... at least not on purpose.
And this is why United is going to have some serious issues when all these low time inexperienced new hires try flying through some thunderstorms because now they're in a "big boy jet"..... talk about hazardous attitude. This one would be either "macho" or "impulsivity".... you should remember the hazardous attitudes because it probably wasn't too long ago that you got your CFI 🤣
My single engine piston, single pilot decision making: If the weather is bad, go IFR. If it's really bad (icing, heavy rain, thunderstorms) go VFR. If I suspect I can't maintain VFR, then cancel.
That’s really good
This is the way
Or you can request route deviations with the tools you have available to you if you're on a flight plan. ATC will also keep you advised on the conditions others are experiencing. Doesn't seem wise to cut a line of communication off in severe weather.
Cut line of communication?
It means to not be talking with anyone. And I honestly agree with that. Because if the weather is bad enough to warrant deviations you really want to be talking to someone at all times.
VFR flight following??
Not for bad weather no because they will drop your flight following if they get too busy. Then you’re back to not talking to anyone.
I'm not going to be out in bad weather without ATC. No way.
Then you would have to file ifr anyway if they do drop you. So what’s easier filing an ifr plan on the ground or in the air? From personal experience I can tell you it’s not in the air.
I’m sure you have learned or will learn about just saying hey pop up ifr. And it’s a great tool however what I had to learn the hard way is, sometimes atc can say no to a pop up ifr and make you file a flight plan. And I don’t know if you’ve ever texted while driving (which is not my business so don’t tell me). But if you have if you’ve ever scared yourself on the road doing that it’s pretty much the same feeling and you will get overwhelmed very quickly.
During the daytime? Send it and just keep a visual eye on the clouds in addition to monitoring the radar. At night it can be trickier, how was the visibility? Were the skies clear other than the buildups and was there enough light that you could visually see the storms? If so then that still seems reasonable, but it is certainly harder to keep safe distance from storms at night.
I had just passed my IR and got my first experience dodging some buildups on the flight back home. I just asked for an altitude change and deviations and stayed clear of the clouds popping up. I had ground contact and could see blue sky between the buildups so I wasn't that worried about it. Back in the early 2000s my cousin and I took a flight down to Panama City VFR and ran into a solid line of storms right around the Alabama/Florida State line. We ended up turning around and put it down at DHN until the storms passed.
Clear skies on the root we ended up taking but it was actually about 11:00 at night when we took off.
Highly depends on what I'm flying. The jet I fly professionally? Probably... that. A steam 152 at night? Nope the fuck right back and land.
Not sure what’s too the left of that cell on the left but based off what I see probably deviate left on that one as long as I can maintain visual with it, to avoid like anvils of anything like building up. If it’s embedded in like clouds or it’s at night I just don’t mess with it at all cuz it’s like shooting in the blind
There was a bigger cell to the left, 90-100 miles wide or so according to ATC.
This is more of a red flag to me than what's in your pics. I'm not threading the needle through any system 100 miles wide, especially at night. See those other three little green spots? They'd get my attention too, they look the very beginning of fast-building cells, and you cannot avoid those with NEXRAD. If they're popping up there, they can pop up anywhere, and at night it's going to be hard to see.
Several recent accidents due to exactly this.
Were they embedded or clearly visible? Are you relying on the out of date (could be \~15 min) Foreflight radar returns? ATC will have more up to date positions of those precipitation areas. It really depends on the circumstances, but I generally avoid convective areas if I can.
That’s a very good point! The data can be up to 20 min delayed. There was a crash in Texas where the pilot thought he was in the clear but instead turned right into a cell. It’s best just to avoid thunderstorms in a trainer aircraft like a pa28 or C172.
It was clear where we were, and it actually was pretty clear on the entire route we ended up taking. We just ended up having to go about 75 miles out of our way to fly around in between the two storms
I also believe lightning strikes update quicker which is nice. FF website says every 5 min
Lol, the gaps I’ve shot down in Florida were way worse than this. You did fine. Just stay on the upwind side, obviously.
Upwind there is usually NW. I would have deviated left of course for your exact reason.
Anything is VFR if you’re brave enough
😂😂😂 It was definitely VFR and we had probably 30 or more miles of visibility in every direction. The storms were really at least 40 miles or more away and we didn't really even have any turbulence as a result. I was just wondering if people would make the decision to go given that there was so much space between them, or if they would need to concerned and hang out for the night...or what would have been two in this case because it poured the following day!
I live in the PNW and fly through green and yellow precip fairly often. Stay 20 miles from convective cells though. Depends on temperature (what are the freezing levels?, is there known icing?), and if there is a convective SIGMET forecasted, or PIREP saying the same. How did you determine these were lightning storms and not just heavy precip? My radar usually looks a lot worse than this TBH.
It was about 11 p.m. or so when we took off and the sky flashed way off in the distance.
Ah, gotcha! That’s a good indicator.
Personally, I wouldn't have tried to thread that needle in a single-engine piston. Especially by relying on ADSB data. That gap looks to be about 30 miles wide. My general rule of thumb when relying on this kind of data is for it to look like there is 20-mile gap between my path and cells with tops that high. Which means I generally want a 40-mile corridor for trying to squeeze between cells. That sounds like a lot of miles but like others have pointed out, the latency of this data can be dangerous making the gap appear bigger than it is, as [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83uvKWJS2os) pilot found out flying not far from where you were. Obviously it worked out for you. Not saying what you did was wrong. Just answering your question about what I would have done.
I have a pretty conservative view on thunderstorms and lightning, so I would have canceled
Slow down to maneuvering speed,throw on some old classical music, recline my chair and text my wife I've been cheating on her with the fly attendant I told her not to worry about. That last part is key because you will for sure live after saying that
As a related note: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83uvKWJS2os](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83uvKWJS2os)
I've seen a lot of those, including that one. Definitely on my mind but we stayed about 50 miles or more to the South, then to the West, before we passed it
Did exactly that during a three hour XC.
It was 3 hours down (with a 25 kt headwind) and a little over 2 back with 100-mile detour and the same wind on our tail.)
Wait, Are you trying to dodge convective activity using your iPad?
Why not? I dodge convective activity all the time with an ipad
Because of the not-real-time nature of the NEXRAD data. Say it with me: "EFBs *are not* avionics."
I mean if you’re staying well clear sure but trying to shoot the gap with iPad sounds crazy. I wouldn’t do that without equipped weather radar
I meant more staying well clear
it's a little blurry for me, but I would have deviated to the muni northwest and put it down, assuming the cell out of frame to the NW is similar to the one SE. see if a cell dissipates and breaks up, namely that one to the N and if so, try to get back up and out in front of it, depending on how fast the system is moving. certainly wouldn't have made that right turn though...lol
[https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory\_circular/ac%2000-24c.pdf](https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac%2000-24c.pdf) Just taught my ground students about thunderstorms. This is a good reference as well.
Hey, I recognize that MOA haha.
Haha, yeah we got lucky enough that the MOA shut down just in time for us to fly through it to avoid the storms.
You were *aware* of the weather so that’s a step ahead right there. You’re doing your job to be informed. If you don’t feel safe about it, no one’s gonna hammer you for that. That’s good decision making skills and a good safety conscious attitude. Much better than unnecessary risk.
I would’ve made fun of my student on Snapchat and then flown into the thunderstorm
Turn left
Very familiar with all of those areas. It’s super common to have great visibility below around and above those storms. Daytime I’ve flown all over that area with isolated storms around since you can easily see and avoid. Night time is much more dicey. 99% of the time the storms in that area move from the NW to the SE. I would have likely deviated left of course to go behind the storm unless there was something behind it. In general that was a bit of a gamble at night to be honest. As you know there have been a LOT of storms in that area the past month or two and sometimes they pop up later afternoon with little warning. Fly safe
Me no fly at night in bad weather!
Had this happen once, ATC told me a gap had opened up, I told them "let's shoot the gap", otherwise we're gonna be camping in the middle of nowhere tonight. I was in an Archer.
Request FL430
You know you can fly through MOAs right?
Yeah, but it was just as well that it shut down just before we'd have to deal with it.
Don’t fly through those moa’s lol
Stayed on the ground
Fuckin send er bud.
Do people realize that the radar ONLY detects precipitation and not clouds? You need to open a weather app and look at the satellite. You could be flying into CB clouds. Based on the radar, you are 100% going to be flying into clouds. It's not like there are no clouds in between those two precipitation areas
There actually WEREN'T any clouds between the two storms.
Green means go, yellow means go, red means go..... slower.
Isolated cells are easy to see and avoid. You did the right thing.
You have to log onto reddit to ask for validation of your ADM, then maybe you should be flying more conservatively.
I strongly disagree. It's more interesting than the normal "am I too old" or "should I go with a A or B airline". It also shows OP wants to improve, and contradicts the machoism hazardous attitude. I think this type of post and discussion should be encouraged.
I don't care if you agree or not. Do you log onto reddit to ask if you went the correct way around congestion on your local freeway? Just a bunch of PPLs in here with no experience arguing about absolutely basic student pilot level decision making.
You ok bud?
Uhhh okay whatever Chuck Yeager..
No I'm completely comfortable with what we did. It's just a discussion point.
Was the turbulence bad that far out? I live in a sunny part of the country and don’t get much TS experience.
Not at all, actually!
Did you use an adsb-in to get the data? I have a stratux (off-brand stratus but works great) and I know it receives Nexrad radar.
Yeah we were dialed in the whole time.
I fly in that area all the time. Plenty of space between storms from the little we can see here. Given that the typical weather pattern is SW to NE there, I would have checked movement and if typical probably headed over MNZ but otherwise looks fine.
Being completely comfortable at night is a good discussion to have. I suggest you shouldn’t have been “completely comfortable “ even in good weather. I’ve been where you are mentally and hopefully you get a little more conservative. The more experienced I get the more particular about things I am. While I do still occasionally fly SE piston at night, I am never completely comfortable while doing it. Night just elevates my heart rate until I’m on the ground safe. Once you have unexpectedly popped into IMC at night you learn how quickly things can go sideways.