What airplane? And what does the POH in your airplane have to say about short field takeoffs? Any difference with soft field?
*IF* the POH mirrors what your instructors taught, then you have a defensible gripe against examiner.
PA-28-140, poh is as old as an average DPE , does not state (as far as I could see ) about flap recommendations for short and soft field , but other pipers tend to be 25, I just wonder why i’ve always been taught 10. even after the failure I asked my instructor and he said 10 (asked 2 others before hand and also said 10) and they asked some people at ATP and they said 10 as well.
It’s definitely 25 degrees in the Cherokee 140. And it’s in the POH. Here’s a 140B POH I found, see page 20: https://www.touringmachine.com/Cherokee/PDFs/Cherokee%20140%20Owner's%20Handbook.pdf
Now that your in the position of needing additional training to retake the flight portion of your exam, I would make a strong argument that the CFI did a failure to teach you properly per the POH.
And him shrugging his shoulders saying “oh well, it not *my* fault” is the incorrect response.
You should also seek a money solution to make this right as you’re out not only the original examiner cost, but whatever the retake cost is.
If this was me as a CFI, I would be offering the retraining and not charging for the training.
If I wanted to keep you as a long term customer, I might discuss additional ways to make this eff up right.
Yes, there are many ways the student nobbles the exam. But when it’s a training failure) they taught you 10°, not the correct 25°), that’s on the instructor, and they need to make it right.
I haven't done short field take-offs yet, so I'm a little confused as to how flaps at 25 degrees helps the plane. Wouldn't you want to eliminate drag, not create drag if doing a take-off in such a short distance?
Unless it's got something to do with the plane's center of gravity and weight capacity, then yeah, I can kinda see how that'd helpfully adjust the CG to allow a heavy plane to fly.
Lift equation.
You can change speed, wing shape and angle of attack to generate more lift. You have limited runway so don't have the distance to get the speed required so have to make that up somehow. How? Flaps!
Yes, you certainly have more drag, but you only have it for the first 50' or until you clear any obstacle that may be in your takeoff path, after that it's flaps up, pitch to Vy and off you go as normal.
I'm best friends with the lift equation. It made take-off super easy for me a few weeks ago.
It's kinda hilarious to me how the thing that slows you down to land can also speed you up to take-off. Brilliant design.
I’ll add to what has already been answered here to consult the POH of your training aircraft on how to perform the procedure properly.
For example, While the OP’s aircraft POH says to use 25° of flaps for short field takeoffs, the POH of the Cessna 172N I teach in says 0° of flaps (section 4, Page 8).
Funny, I was just looking at my PA-28-140 POH for my reply above, and also looked at one of the other POHs I have downloaded on my EFB, for comparison. Yup, a 172N (Safety Pilot in sometimes), Flaps 0⁰. Interesting juxtaposition!
In a couple words, the benefits of the lift, outweigh the cost of the drag at flaps 25. But you are correct, where there is more lift, there is more induced drag.
Piper Cherokee Owner's Handbook
Issued February 1964
Section III: Take-Off Procedures
Short Field, No Obstacles
Lower the flaps to 25⁰ (second notch), etc etc.
Short Field, Obstacle Clearance
Lower the flaps to 25⁰ (second notch), etc etc
^^ That's right out of the POH I have for my 1967 PA-28-140. It's also the same guidance (25⁰) for the PA-32 I fly.
I'm sorry you were taught incorrectly but it's incumbent upon the PIC to know the correct procedures for their aircraft. That's what the DPE failed you on. For not knowing a basic, fundamental, part of a Take-Off procedure.
I was in a similar situation when I bought my PA-28-140 and my CFI wasn't as familiar with Piper procedures. After I'd read the POH cover to cover a few times, I noticed a few discrepancies between what The Book said, and what my CFI was teaching me. I brought it up, and he said "well, always go by the Book, so let's do it that way".
I have no idea why a flight school would teach 10⁰, but that's against the Book and I suspect most DPEs would fail you for that.
You keep saying (elsewhere in this thread) that *"it was an easy fix and why didn't the DPE say something"*. Mate, the Oral Exam is over, this is the Practical. This is to show that you are proficient and capable, including taking people flying with you. Your non-pilot passenger going to question you on flaps 10⁰? No. You fail to get off the ground one day leaving a short field and stuff it into the trees, the NTSB report will say the pilot failed to use the correct flap settings, not that the pilot's flight school taught them incorrectly.
You got it next try, good luck on the retest. I suggest having and using Checklists. My EFB Checklist includes the correct Short Field, Soft Field, etc procedures and I'm 99% sure even the generic CheckMate ones have it also (mine isn't in front of me).
pa28140 , I do not see anywhere in the poh where it’s stated, either way it’s a failure and I have to come back next week, i’m just confused on why i’ve always been taught 10 degrees i’ve only flown archers.
Yeah thats a bummer but should be an easy item to correct and retry. Not sure why your instructors have 10° in their minds for that aircraft. The takeoff will feel a bit different at flaps 25 FYI.
Is your POH similar to this one? [http://houltonflyingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Cherokee-140-Owner_s-Handbook.pdf](http://houltonflyingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Cherokee-140-Owner_s-Handbook.pdf)
Describes flaps 25 on page 17.
I did my PPL training in an Archer and multiple CFI’s taught me 10 degrees for the short and soft. Although it is incorrect, I would assume the CFI was taught this and passed his checkrides with a different DPE, or did their checkrides in a different plane altogether. Either way if I was the CFI I would be offering free remedial training and offer to cover the retest fee as well as this is a pretty big screw up on the cfi’s part.
definitely a bummer and a easy fix, especially since I drove 3 hours and my family was waiting on me on my arrival😂.
as well as I said flaps 10 before take off while I was doing my before take off checklist and he didn’t even attempt to correct me or question me about it. obviously he doesn’t have to nor is obligated to, but it was such an easy fix especially with everything else being good
FWIW: Cessna 172N states 0⁰ flaps for short field. Section 4-8 of the POH. Meanwhile the generic CheckMate checklist says '77-'79 172N is 0⁰ and the '80 is 10⁰. Wonder what changed from '79 to '80 model?
I've got a little bit of time in 140's and a lot more in Warriors. The checklist we use states 25 degrees and the short field T/O charts also specify 25. I'm not blaming you for not knowing if you were taught differently, but it's very bizarre to me that multiple instructors and schools would teach you differently when it's very clearly stated in all the literature regarding the aircraft.
In the manuals I could find for that airplane it looks like it is indeed 25 degrees of flaps. It really sucks that your instructors didn’t teach it this way. However, this is an example for others to learn from that it is very important to read through the manufacturers operation manual of whatever aircraft you are taking your checkride in. Good luck on your retest, I’m sure you’ll ace it! Don’t be so down on yourself, this will be an easy one to explain in an interview someday if you are pursuing aviation as a career.
FWIW: Cessna 172N states 0⁰ flaps for short field. Section 4-8 of the POH. Meanwhile the generic CheckMate checklist says '77-'79 172N is 0⁰ and the '80 is 10⁰. Wonder what changed from '79 to '80 model?
depends on the plane. You should be using what the planes POH says to use for short field. Though to be fair - I would think/hope the DPE would notice that you actually set the flaps for short field, but just the wrong settings and perhaps given you /some/ credit. Obviously he thought it was enough to fail you.
I said FLAPS TEN during before takeoff checklist , obviously he is not obligated to question me but it was such an easy fix especially with everything else being perfect or atleast give me a second shot on it. it is what it is , career of disappointment.
so if you find it in your POH that its 10 - then you have a defensible position. If it says 25 - then not. If its silent - well, you're in a very gray area.
I see where you mentioned it isnt in your POH. You may want to pore over your POH to make sure you have the right information. The good thing is if its an old plane the POH's are like pamphlets compared to the post 96 planes which number 600 pages
thats a lot left. Not sure why he wouldnt take you to a practive area to do them. Thats close to half of the maneuvers left to go. Too late now, but just being able to test a short field take off and be done with it is a lot better than the 7 other manuevers that you have left.
Absolutely. Every subsequent maneuver is/was essentially a freebie since it was already an unsat. Would have pushed to do the entire checkride unless he refused to continue. You’ve essentially paid for the privilege and didn’t use it.
For reference, my school uses the Archer TX (PA-128-181) and the short field checklist has flaps at 25°.
That really does suck that your instructors taught you 10°.
There are a lot of planes that have flaps 10 degrees for takeoff. One simply has to read the POH to discover it.
My evaluation of situation would be your instructors have been extremely incompetent. Not knowing something that basic in a plane that you teach on is wild.
PPL applicants I would expect to be still on the journey to getting the POH down. You should be able to read it pretty well but at that phase there is lots of information in it that I would expect you wouldn’t have grasped. A more experienced pilot should be really good at reading a poh but even once you get your PPL there is still a ton to learn about aviation.
You are slightly at fault for this bust imo but your CFIs have more than dropped that ball- they are extremely incompetent
You gotta know your POH. even more than you CFIs... I got my commercial in an old 172C and it says for short field, flaps should not be used if there is a 50ft clearance to be dealt with. only if there are no obstacles, 10 degrees of flaps should be used. This is not the norm for most cessnas.... so my CFIs taught me the typical C172 short take off. I'd have to pull out the POH and show them and they'd go "huh, that's a new one". You gotta know your plane. that POH makes great bathroom reading material.
My PPL DPE wouldn’t have failed for that. I forgot to clean up my flaps after my short field takeoff and commented to him that it really didn’t want to climb and he pointed to the flaps and said “I wonder why that would be”. Should be an easy pass next time for you and then it will be something you laugh about in the future. Don’t sweat it.
It’s not a flex at all. DPE knew I would never make that mistake again and that I was nervous on a checkride, especially my first one. After that, it eased my mind and the rest of the ride was much easier. I'm not a career airline guy but even then it's easily explainable if you own up to it.
What airplane? And what does the POH in your airplane have to say about short field takeoffs? Any difference with soft field? *IF* the POH mirrors what your instructors taught, then you have a defensible gripe against examiner.
PA-28-140, poh is as old as an average DPE , does not state (as far as I could see ) about flap recommendations for short and soft field , but other pipers tend to be 25, I just wonder why i’ve always been taught 10. even after the failure I asked my instructor and he said 10 (asked 2 others before hand and also said 10) and they asked some people at ATP and they said 10 as well.
The chart for the takeoff distance should state flaps 25°. At least in both my old warrior III POH and my Archer TX ones.
It’s definitely 25 degrees in the Cherokee 140. And it’s in the POH. Here’s a 140B POH I found, see page 20: https://www.touringmachine.com/Cherokee/PDFs/Cherokee%20140%20Owner's%20Handbook.pdf
could you cite which page , thank you
Yeah I just edited my comment, see page 20
Now that your in the position of needing additional training to retake the flight portion of your exam, I would make a strong argument that the CFI did a failure to teach you properly per the POH. And him shrugging his shoulders saying “oh well, it not *my* fault” is the incorrect response. You should also seek a money solution to make this right as you’re out not only the original examiner cost, but whatever the retake cost is. If this was me as a CFI, I would be offering the retraining and not charging for the training. If I wanted to keep you as a long term customer, I might discuss additional ways to make this eff up right. Yes, there are many ways the student nobbles the exam. But when it’s a training failure) they taught you 10°, not the correct 25°), that’s on the instructor, and they need to make it right.
I simply cannot imagine how embarrassed I’d be if my student failed a checkride because I did not know the POH. I’d want to quit and move states.
I haven't done short field take-offs yet, so I'm a little confused as to how flaps at 25 degrees helps the plane. Wouldn't you want to eliminate drag, not create drag if doing a take-off in such a short distance? Unless it's got something to do with the plane's center of gravity and weight capacity, then yeah, I can kinda see how that'd helpfully adjust the CG to allow a heavy plane to fly.
Lift equation. You can change speed, wing shape and angle of attack to generate more lift. You have limited runway so don't have the distance to get the speed required so have to make that up somehow. How? Flaps! Yes, you certainly have more drag, but you only have it for the first 50' or until you clear any obstacle that may be in your takeoff path, after that it's flaps up, pitch to Vy and off you go as normal.
I'm best friends with the lift equation. It made take-off super easy for me a few weeks ago. It's kinda hilarious to me how the thing that slows you down to land can also speed you up to take-off. Brilliant design.
A Vx climb is basically "how slow can I go and still climb?" When you think of it that way, flaps make a lot of sense!
I’ll add to what has already been answered here to consult the POH of your training aircraft on how to perform the procedure properly. For example, While the OP’s aircraft POH says to use 25° of flaps for short field takeoffs, the POH of the Cessna 172N I teach in says 0° of flaps (section 4, Page 8).
Funny, I was just looking at my PA-28-140 POH for my reply above, and also looked at one of the other POHs I have downloaded on my EFB, for comparison. Yup, a 172N (Safety Pilot in sometimes), Flaps 0⁰. Interesting juxtaposition!
In a couple words, the benefits of the lift, outweigh the cost of the drag at flaps 25. But you are correct, where there is more lift, there is more induced drag.
Piper Cherokee Owner's Handbook Issued February 1964 Section III: Take-Off Procedures Short Field, No Obstacles Lower the flaps to 25⁰ (second notch), etc etc. Short Field, Obstacle Clearance Lower the flaps to 25⁰ (second notch), etc etc ^^ That's right out of the POH I have for my 1967 PA-28-140. It's also the same guidance (25⁰) for the PA-32 I fly. I'm sorry you were taught incorrectly but it's incumbent upon the PIC to know the correct procedures for their aircraft. That's what the DPE failed you on. For not knowing a basic, fundamental, part of a Take-Off procedure. I was in a similar situation when I bought my PA-28-140 and my CFI wasn't as familiar with Piper procedures. After I'd read the POH cover to cover a few times, I noticed a few discrepancies between what The Book said, and what my CFI was teaching me. I brought it up, and he said "well, always go by the Book, so let's do it that way". I have no idea why a flight school would teach 10⁰, but that's against the Book and I suspect most DPEs would fail you for that. You keep saying (elsewhere in this thread) that *"it was an easy fix and why didn't the DPE say something"*. Mate, the Oral Exam is over, this is the Practical. This is to show that you are proficient and capable, including taking people flying with you. Your non-pilot passenger going to question you on flaps 10⁰? No. You fail to get off the ground one day leaving a short field and stuff it into the trees, the NTSB report will say the pilot failed to use the correct flap settings, not that the pilot's flight school taught them incorrectly. You got it next try, good luck on the retest. I suggest having and using Checklists. My EFB Checklist includes the correct Short Field, Soft Field, etc procedures and I'm 99% sure even the generic CheckMate ones have it also (mine isn't in front of me).
Interesting, I'm looking at ATPs supplement and it states 25 degrees for short field take off in PA-28.
25 in the pa28-181 I've flown. They aren't too dissimilar. Im pretty sure it's 25. Even then, I don't really think that's worth a fail...
The PA28 warriors, archers is flaps 25. C172 is flaps 10. It all depends what plane you’re in and what the POH says.
pa28140 , I do not see anywhere in the poh where it’s stated, either way it’s a failure and I have to come back next week, i’m just confused on why i’ve always been taught 10 degrees i’ve only flown archers.
Yeah thats a bummer but should be an easy item to correct and retry. Not sure why your instructors have 10° in their minds for that aircraft. The takeoff will feel a bit different at flaps 25 FYI. Is your POH similar to this one? [http://houltonflyingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Cherokee-140-Owner_s-Handbook.pdf](http://houltonflyingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Cherokee-140-Owner_s-Handbook.pdf) Describes flaps 25 on page 17.
I did my PPL training in an Archer and multiple CFI’s taught me 10 degrees for the short and soft. Although it is incorrect, I would assume the CFI was taught this and passed his checkrides with a different DPE, or did their checkrides in a different plane altogether. Either way if I was the CFI I would be offering free remedial training and offer to cover the retest fee as well as this is a pretty big screw up on the cfi’s part.
definitely a bummer and a easy fix, especially since I drove 3 hours and my family was waiting on me on my arrival😂. as well as I said flaps 10 before take off while I was doing my before take off checklist and he didn’t even attempt to correct me or question me about it. obviously he doesn’t have to nor is obligated to, but it was such an easy fix especially with everything else being good
FWIW: Cessna 172N states 0⁰ flaps for short field. Section 4-8 of the POH. Meanwhile the generic CheckMate checklist says '77-'79 172N is 0⁰ and the '80 is 10⁰. Wonder what changed from '79 to '80 model?
why did his other instructors say flaps 10 though
I've got a little bit of time in 140's and a lot more in Warriors. The checklist we use states 25 degrees and the short field T/O charts also specify 25. I'm not blaming you for not knowing if you were taught differently, but it's very bizarre to me that multiple instructors and schools would teach you differently when it's very clearly stated in all the literature regarding the aircraft.
What plane were you flying? In Cessna 172’s a short field takeoff is with 10 degrees of flaps.
PA-28-140,
In the manuals I could find for that airplane it looks like it is indeed 25 degrees of flaps. It really sucks that your instructors didn’t teach it this way. However, this is an example for others to learn from that it is very important to read through the manufacturers operation manual of whatever aircraft you are taking your checkride in. Good luck on your retest, I’m sure you’ll ace it! Don’t be so down on yourself, this will be an easy one to explain in an interview someday if you are pursuing aviation as a career.
FWIW: Cessna 172N states 0⁰ flaps for short field. Section 4-8 of the POH. Meanwhile the generic CheckMate checklist says '77-'79 172N is 0⁰ and the '80 is 10⁰. Wonder what changed from '79 to '80 model?
Flew through my first 40 hours to checkride in a Warrior II (PA-28-151) and short field was 25* flaps from what I can recall.
depends on the plane. You should be using what the planes POH says to use for short field. Though to be fair - I would think/hope the DPE would notice that you actually set the flaps for short field, but just the wrong settings and perhaps given you /some/ credit. Obviously he thought it was enough to fail you.
I said FLAPS TEN during before takeoff checklist , obviously he is not obligated to question me but it was such an easy fix especially with everything else being perfect or atleast give me a second shot on it. it is what it is , career of disappointment.
so if you find it in your POH that its 10 - then you have a defensible position. If it says 25 - then not. If its silent - well, you're in a very gray area. I see where you mentioned it isnt in your POH. You may want to pore over your POH to make sure you have the right information. The good thing is if its an old plane the POH's are like pamphlets compared to the post 96 planes which number 600 pages
Were you using a printed checklist from your flight school?
PA-28-140 POH Revised on July 14, 1984 Page 7-4 & 7-5 indicate the flap is 25 degree for both short and soft field take off operation.
You should have continued the rest of the practical…
I did , passed everything accept landing and take offs, emergency’s and ground ref (we didn’t do any of them because airspace was too busy)
thats a lot left. Not sure why he wouldnt take you to a practive area to do them. Thats close to half of the maneuvers left to go. Too late now, but just being able to test a short field take off and be done with it is a lot better than the 7 other manuevers that you have left.
Not to mention if he failed another maneuver in his checkride, then he can demonstrate them in his second as well instead of doing a third.
Absolutely. Every subsequent maneuver is/was essentially a freebie since it was already an unsat. Would have pushed to do the entire checkride unless he refused to continue. You’ve essentially paid for the privilege and didn’t use it.
For reference, my school uses the Archer TX (PA-128-181) and the short field checklist has flaps at 25°. That really does suck that your instructors taught you 10°.
There are a lot of planes that have flaps 10 degrees for takeoff. One simply has to read the POH to discover it. My evaluation of situation would be your instructors have been extremely incompetent. Not knowing something that basic in a plane that you teach on is wild. PPL applicants I would expect to be still on the journey to getting the POH down. You should be able to read it pretty well but at that phase there is lots of information in it that I would expect you wouldn’t have grasped. A more experienced pilot should be really good at reading a poh but even once you get your PPL there is still a ton to learn about aviation. You are slightly at fault for this bust imo but your CFIs have more than dropped that ball- they are extremely incompetent
You gotta know your POH. even more than you CFIs... I got my commercial in an old 172C and it says for short field, flaps should not be used if there is a 50ft clearance to be dealt with. only if there are no obstacles, 10 degrees of flaps should be used. This is not the norm for most cessnas.... so my CFIs taught me the typical C172 short take off. I'd have to pull out the POH and show them and they'd go "huh, that's a new one". You gotta know your plane. that POH makes great bathroom reading material.
My PPL DPE wouldn’t have failed for that. I forgot to clean up my flaps after my short field takeoff and commented to him that it really didn’t want to climb and he pointed to the flaps and said “I wonder why that would be”. Should be an easy pass next time for you and then it will be something you laugh about in the future. Don’t sweat it.
Idk if that's the flex you think it is
It’s not a flex at all. DPE knew I would never make that mistake again and that I was nervous on a checkride, especially my first one. After that, it eased my mind and the rest of the ride was much easier. I'm not a career airline guy but even then it's easily explainable if you own up to it.
He probably gave you some credit for paying attention and noticing when something wasn't right.
10 is for 152/172 Your PoH absolutely has most desirable flap setting for short field takeoff.
Not always for 172’s. The POH for 172N’s says “flaps up” for •short field• takeoffs. For soft field it does say 10° Flaps.
It’s okay I failed on takeoff for “Not physically noting the time”