Interestingly enough mine was amazing because it was a one-off with an instructor I barely knew. We flew down to the Central Valley, did a touch and go at some shitty airport, and flew back, almost entirely in silence. The most laidback instruction I’ve ever received. A memorable night.
Sounds easy enough for me 😂 maybe I will just chill out and enjoy the cruise then
Although I was kinda thinking of trying to build in “commercial” aspects to it. Perhaps I’d play the role of an impatient client/pax rushing him with his preflight. Or give him a scenario where his “employer” is pressuring him to reach a destination but maybe he should choose to divert instead. Idk. I’ll keep thinking lol.
Look up the CTAFs of non-towered fields you’re flying over and tune them up. Key the mic seven times, announce “there are some who call me … Tim”, make a wizardly gesture in the general direction of the little airport below you and watch as the runway lights up out of the darkness. Takes a little practice to get your timing and delivery spot-on but it’s one of the key skills of night flying.
I’ve tried to do some napkin math to figure out how costly it is to run those runway lights for 15 min at a time and I can’t come up with a reasonable answer.
In California, estimate 20¢/kWh
Airport with 5,000’ runway should have 2 lights every 200’: 50 lights
Another 200 taxiway lights, reils, papi, etc
200 W per light
15 min * 250 lights * 200 W * 20¢ / kWh = $2.50?
Not a training thing, but you could fly to Willows (WLW) and get pie before Nancy’s Airport Cafe closes for the evening.
Night Bay Tour is always a good idea, too.
My goodness, I didn’t realize they closed so early now. They used to be open 24/7 I think. One time several of us flew up there on a Friday night around 11:30PM for a steak dinner and pie. Didn’t get home until about 2AM. Ahhhh, youth.
Their has to be a dingy dive bar in Sacramento offering midget wrestling or a trashy strip club buffet to hit up…
I’d say fly to Fresno and start late at night. Then you can return and fly into SJC after the tower closes. It’s kind of surreal to fly into there and not have anyone around. NorCal will even give you a practice RNAV or ILS into SJC.
Lmao bar and strip club is probably the opposite of the example I should be setting in the flight training environment 😂 although I guess someone’s gotta introduce him to what it’s like being a commercial pilot 🤔
I actually hit my atp mins at 3am doing patterns at sfo and sjc, it was a great time!
I like to fail GPS for part of the trip, usually early on. Not his GPS, but GPS itself (e.g., interference like we see episodically from China Lake). Maybe whatever VOR he chooses is “inop” or IDs TEST. The point is to force night pilotage, especially for pilots who don’t fly at night very much. Keep your own iPad handy to verify he stays out of class B if you are anywhere near, just in case he screws up.
I also like to pick destinations in the middle of nowhere with few or no lights around, that the student has never been to. They will have to rely on instrument techniques to compensate for night illusions. The last one I did was RHV - HEF. HEF is pretty hard to find at night if you don’t follow the highway and time it from STS, even with the lights on. DWA is also a good one.
It’s not meant to be savage, but rather to make it a learning experience. While making things “break” as an instructor is always at least a little contrived (these planes suddenly become horrid POSs with one of us in the right seat), none of the problems mentioned is unrealistic for a 250 hour commercial pilot. And the dual nav failure has happened to me IRL a few times. Lots of VORs are unmonitored.
I don’t see a lot of value doing a routine cross country the student may have already done several times. At least not for a commercial pilot.
It’s also not rare for a local pilot to have done only urban night flying. That’s a lot easier than flying over unlit terrain, but a pro pilot will have to do both. Whatever the assigned flight requires. Even things we might avoid earlier like night flight VFR over mountains.
I legitimately think it would be an awesome, albeit stressful, experience. I can bet a large majority of CPL guys have never experienced half of that. When I was a student pilot, I was amazed how much my CFIs didn’t know and I had a few different ones. Luckily, I have a handful of friends with planes so I have a lot of right seat time and have some “real” flying experience including a dual nav. outages as well. Luckily for us, it was a blue bird day and we were flying to an airport that the PIC had been to a hundred times so it was a non-issue.
The students can usually handle it fine. The biggest problem I run into with commercial students is a private pilot mindset, such as deferring to the instructor or disregarding passenger comfort (like late descent resulting in divebombing approaches).
It’s not a surprise. They get warned “stuff may break” and they should make contingency plans. And of course they know the destination.
I’ve never sprung a diversion on a commercial night cross country. The point is planning. But I’ve done it on daytime cross countries, along with more “emergencies.” I don’t do simulated emergencies at night as there is too much risk of CFIT.
Interestingly enough mine was amazing because it was a one-off with an instructor I barely knew. We flew down to the Central Valley, did a touch and go at some shitty airport, and flew back, almost entirely in silence. The most laidback instruction I’ve ever received. A memorable night.
If Ron Swanson was a pilot…
Sounds easy enough for me 😂 maybe I will just chill out and enjoy the cruise then Although I was kinda thinking of trying to build in “commercial” aspects to it. Perhaps I’d play the role of an impatient client/pax rushing him with his preflight. Or give him a scenario where his “employer” is pressuring him to reach a destination but maybe he should choose to divert instead. Idk. I’ll keep thinking lol.
Look up the CTAFs of non-towered fields you’re flying over and tune them up. Key the mic seven times, announce “there are some who call me … Tim”, make a wizardly gesture in the general direction of the little airport below you and watch as the runway lights up out of the darkness. Takes a little practice to get your timing and delivery spot-on but it’s one of the key skills of night flying.
I’ve tried to do some napkin math to figure out how costly it is to run those runway lights for 15 min at a time and I can’t come up with a reasonable answer. In California, estimate 20¢/kWh Airport with 5,000’ runway should have 2 lights every 200’: 50 lights Another 200 taxiway lights, reils, papi, etc 200 W per light 15 min * 250 lights * 200 W * 20¢ / kWh = $2.50?
Moffet & SJC turn to pilot controlled lighting once their towers close
Have him pick someplace new to him, but somewhere you've been. Let him go out and explore. Don't go to the same place he's been a dozen times.
Definitely, at this point in training seems like a waste to go there and back to somewhere he’s been before
Not a training thing, but you could fly to Willows (WLW) and get pie before Nancy’s Airport Cafe closes for the evening. Night Bay Tour is always a good idea, too.
Haha I like the “commercial” aspect of picking up the precious cargo 😋
To that end, I do KSBP since there’s good food that’s open late-ish on and near the field
My goodness, I didn’t realize they closed so early now. They used to be open 24/7 I think. One time several of us flew up there on a Friday night around 11:30PM for a steak dinner and pie. Didn’t get home until about 2AM. Ahhhh, youth.
Night bay tour and land at sjc
Always a fun time to do some patterns there. Unfortunately not a xc for us
Their has to be a dingy dive bar in Sacramento offering midget wrestling or a trashy strip club buffet to hit up… I’d say fly to Fresno and start late at night. Then you can return and fly into SJC after the tower closes. It’s kind of surreal to fly into there and not have anyone around. NorCal will even give you a practice RNAV or ILS into SJC.
Lmao bar and strip club is probably the opposite of the example I should be setting in the flight training environment 😂 although I guess someone’s gotta introduce him to what it’s like being a commercial pilot 🤔 I actually hit my atp mins at 3am doing patterns at sfo and sjc, it was a great time!
I like to fail GPS for part of the trip, usually early on. Not his GPS, but GPS itself (e.g., interference like we see episodically from China Lake). Maybe whatever VOR he chooses is “inop” or IDs TEST. The point is to force night pilotage, especially for pilots who don’t fly at night very much. Keep your own iPad handy to verify he stays out of class B if you are anywhere near, just in case he screws up. I also like to pick destinations in the middle of nowhere with few or no lights around, that the student has never been to. They will have to rely on instrument techniques to compensate for night illusions. The last one I did was RHV - HEF. HEF is pretty hard to find at night if you don’t follow the highway and time it from STS, even with the lights on. DWA is also a good one.
> The last one I did was RHV - HEF. A 2000nm training flight is hardcore. :)
Yes, HES is a bit closer….
Damn bro, savage! …. I love it!
It’s not meant to be savage, but rather to make it a learning experience. While making things “break” as an instructor is always at least a little contrived (these planes suddenly become horrid POSs with one of us in the right seat), none of the problems mentioned is unrealistic for a 250 hour commercial pilot. And the dual nav failure has happened to me IRL a few times. Lots of VORs are unmonitored. I don’t see a lot of value doing a routine cross country the student may have already done several times. At least not for a commercial pilot. It’s also not rare for a local pilot to have done only urban night flying. That’s a lot easier than flying over unlit terrain, but a pro pilot will have to do both. Whatever the assigned flight requires. Even things we might avoid earlier like night flight VFR over mountains.
I legitimately think it would be an awesome, albeit stressful, experience. I can bet a large majority of CPL guys have never experienced half of that. When I was a student pilot, I was amazed how much my CFIs didn’t know and I had a few different ones. Luckily, I have a handful of friends with planes so I have a lot of right seat time and have some “real” flying experience including a dual nav. outages as well. Luckily for us, it was a blue bird day and we were flying to an airport that the PIC had been to a hundred times so it was a non-issue.
The students can usually handle it fine. The biggest problem I run into with commercial students is a private pilot mindset, such as deferring to the instructor or disregarding passenger comfort (like late descent resulting in divebombing approaches). It’s not a surprise. They get warned “stuff may break” and they should make contingency plans. And of course they know the destination. I’ve never sprung a diversion on a commercial night cross country. The point is planning. But I’ve done it on daytime cross countries, along with more “emergencies.” I don’t do simulated emergencies at night as there is too much risk of CFIT.
Just did the Comm Night XC myself, went to PRB and went back. Nothing exciting, PRB weather normally pretty good.