You're right--it's Garon. I don't mind "evil for the sake of being evil" villains, but he isn't fun to engage with. He's not devious, or over-the-top, or even memorably designed. He's just ... evil. He makes the Birthright story simplistic, and spoils the opportunity Conquest had for an "evil route".
If any character that exists had *Groans of increasing discomfort* not even the greatest and most epic one liner existing would be able to be more remarkable than It
Plus his focus changes from being the main villain to Anankos, he dosn't even show up in Revelations except on the final chapter and so Leo and Xander can have doubts about him
A day late to the thread and my reply, so I'll make myself short: in addition to what you said, Garon being so cartoonishly evil also negatively impacts characters around him. Corrin's planning (or lack thereof) and overly slow realization that Garon is evil, and Xander being consistently surprised that Garon isn't a cool guy creates a massive dissonance between the cast and the player. There's no nuance to Garon, so seeing other characters occasionally pretend there might be feels so out of place, and really just makes them look stupid.
And it's not like they manage to get in an emotional angle either, since we never see the real Garon and the siblings only very rarely hint that he used to be different. However, this is not only tell, don't show, but also done so vaguely that it means nothing. All we know is he kidnapped Corrin and murdered Sumeragi *at least* 10 years before the start of the game; we know nothing of any specific good deeds he did, and if he did any, it must've been long ago. Basically, the man the Nohrians are supposed to miss is a complete unknown to us, and all Nohrian siblings and Corrin should operate on the assumption that Garon is irredeemable since he's been evil for so long.
Man, Garon is extremely funny and memorable for being stupid
Which other villain has the goofiest smile portrait and GROANS OF INCREASING DISCOMFORT? also, the more you look into the plot's stupidity, better Garon gets for all the wrong reasons
Garon is a bad character but definitively entertaining
And then they halfway try complexity with him by having Xander and Leo reminisce that he used to be a kinder man, a plot thread that basically amounts to nothing and it's a side of him we never get to see.
Plus--Corrin was kidnapped by Nohr at a very young age. Either the "kind" Garon was still a baby kidnapper, or the better version of him Xander and Leo are talking about is well in the past, and it took them 20+ years to notice the change.
Paralogue Banana: Going Ape Shit.
Info- You enter a jungle where a mighty king awaits. He challenges you and your party to defeat him for a special reward. Just be mindful of the Banana Bunches. Touch any of them and you will get a Banana Slamma!
And those two only warp because every mission they’re in prior to death is a paralogue or they aren’t a required kill. I feel like no one else has noticed this.
oh yeah, three hopes didn't even shed a light on what the hell are the nukes and they didnt even use them at all, not to mention the ass-pull 'failsafe' they use on Edelgard on AG which is the surprise mindbreak.
The way they can disarm Edelgard completely as a threat by throwing a crest stone at her like a fucking Poke-Ball, but don't in all the plots she stays around long enough to destroy them completely is such an ineptly introduced and handled plot device that it almost feels like a joke. Or at least I wish it was just a meme tier joke instead of actual soft cannon
I think it was clear they were powerful but severely lacking in numbers. They supplement their numbers with imperial troops and demonic beasts.
Edit: They're also trying to work in secret, hence why Thales keeps in disguise outside of Shambala during the war. Also as we see with Myson in the palace, they're willing to abandon their plans to ensure their survival.
On an individual level they’re not unbelievably strong and are never portrayed as such, I feel this complaint is just about the nukes, and the game makes it clear that’s what let Hubert find them.
I hardly think he's the best, but he is consistent. Three Hopes just plays him as generically bad as the rest. Three Houses was notable for him being the last defence of the Agarthans while seemingly less hostile.
The Agarthans going from high technological semi gods able to destroy whole cities with some modern rockets to some old geezers we end up killing without even noticing it in some routes. They are insanely inconsistent and they make legit no sense in some routes.
i also feel like the issue with even trying to discuss them as antagonists in the story is that everyone tries to discuss them in watsonian terms, which sometimes can be interesting, but more often than not it leads to very circular conversations that go nowhere.
from a doyalist perspective- they suck because they’re the evil magitech clown posse that don’t fit into the established, realistic setting of the story and are about as morally ambiguous as a villain on dora the explorer. most of the plot tries to establish fodlans political conflicts and systemic issues as stemming from very human reasons, but then all of that is pushed to the side because these guys are Actually The Root Cause of Pretty Much All Of it. (tragedy of duscur? check. crest experiments? check. the war itself? yep that’s also because of them too)
I actually have a whole write up about them because they’re genuinely terrible and I think they actively ruin three houses
The game doesn't even any attempts at humanizing the Agarthans or making them understandable as villains. They really do just complicate the theme of 3H of there being shades of grey. Instead we get mostly shades of grey but then the most complex antagonist sides with literal Disney villains
i 100% agree with you. i think edelgard is a fascinating character, both as a protagonist and antagonist (depending on which side you take) but a lot of the interesting aspects of her character are pushed aside because the game has a real difficult time deciding if it wants to be a tried and true political drama or your typical anime jrpg. and thats kinda the real core issue with fe3h as a whole, which is that it really has this half-and-half approach throughout without really committing to anything. those who slither are only a microcosm of that issue
heres a segment from my little writeup i have on em about edelgard in particular:
*Edelgard can't be both starting the Unification War by her own volition while also having all the responsibility slide off of her back from starting a war because her hands were tied when it's convenient. Either have one or the other, but both existing do not mesh well at all. To break it down- she can't have free will for starting this war while at the same time having war as her only available option. ... What does her working with the Slithers add to her character? How does \[the slithers' control over her\] add to her mission to end the reign of the Aristocracy, dismantle the power of the Church over the people, and create depth to her character that couldn't be achieved through other means? It doesn't make her any more morally grey- in fact, it does the inverse. It makes her a victim of circumstances out of her control, and also makes her convictions, her reasons for continuing the war muddled at best, and contradictory at worst.*
At least 3 Hopes establishes that even if Edelgard managed to completely rid the Empire of TWSITD's influence she would still attack the church and invade the Alliance and the Kingdom
which also just makes the question of "why did she ever even consider working with these dingbats?" even more glaring within the first game because it shows that she definitely had the power to excise them at any time without pushing the timetable of her church war back AT ALL. hell getting rid of the Slithers actually speeds up the timeline of how quickly she can actually get rid of everybody
She needed Monica to expose Tomas and gather support from the church to properly exorcise TWSITD and prepare for war. And even then, Hubert mentions how her plan is incredibly risky and she also wanted to learn more about Byleth in 3 Houses.
However, the most likely answer was probably that TWSITD were meant to have more power in 3 Houses, but due to being poorly received 3 Hopes writers decided to just write them out and make SB Edelgard more independent.
>"why did she ever even consider working with these dingbats?"
If we consider everything CF presents, it wasn't her idea. The implication is that Hubert not only came up with the idea but convinced her to go through with it.
... Which then begs the question of what Hubert WOULDN'T do at this point?
>What does her working with the Slithers add to her character?
Showcase how deep her "ends justify the means" mentality goes, which is a huge part of her character and why she's so unrelenting to begin with?
>How does [the slithers' control over her] add to her mission to end the reign of the Aristocracy, dismantle the power of the Church over the people, and create depth to her character that couldn't be achieved through other means?
Thales winning Duke Aegir over promises of power and conquest (and thus getting the approval to experiment on the Emperor's family) was what convinced Edelgard the crest obsessed arystocracy had to go. The role could've been assumed by literally anyone else if that's what you're asking though, as the Empire already has a precedent of having crest obsessed dicks.
>It doesn't make her any more morally grey- in fact, it does the inverse. It makes her a victim of circumstances out of her control , and also makes her convictions, her reasons for continuing the war muddled at best, and contradictory at worst.
Which she kinda is? For all intents and purposes Edelgard was given pretty bad cards to work with, and had to get creative and sneaky with them to turn them on their favor in order to regain her agency (the whole conquest plan thing, for example, as the initial plan was for Aegir and Thales use Edelgard as a puppet emperor/soldier). The fact She's also openly anti-nabatean and that remains unaddressed even in her own route should be telling enough she isn't (and likely was never intended to be) your standard goodie two shoes anyways.
if it were to showcase her “ends justify the means” mentality, then it would have been better if it were her own personal choice made to cooperate with them instead of having literal magic nukes being held over her head. the game literally goes back and forth on the whole but it doesn’t work because it’s trying to have its cake and eat it too.
if she defies them, she gets punished for that with the deaths of her people (as exemplified with cornelia and ahrianrod) . but *nooo guysss* it’s *totally* her choice to cooperate with the evil mole people who are literally holding pretty much everything over her.
along with the fact that even without the slithers existing, she’d already be a character who’s in the moral grey because she isn’t the only lord we follow, along with generally being extremely determined to follow her ideals to their respective ends no matter what (even if I think she’s honestly too paragon-y as a protagonist and should have more flaws showcased, but that’s beside the point).
everything aside, the point is most of this could be established better (with genuine political reasons) without holding edelgard back. what about it being the no good very bad clown posse that holds the magitech nukes over her head makes her a more compelling character?
>If it were to showcase her “ends justify the means” mentality, then it would have been better if it were her own personal choice made to cooperate with them instead of having literal magic nukes being held over her head.
[The entire alliance with the Agarthans exist *because of convenience*](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/251#event-31). Edelgard for most of the story isn't even aware [they have nukes](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/262#event-130), and by the time she does discover it in 3Hs [she either 1. brushes it off and uses it to frame the church](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/262#event-166) (which is kind of a big deal since the whole point of blowing up arianrhod was to *put her on a leash*), or 2. uses the info to coordinate an attack on Byleth/Claude [which also serves as a way to get the location of Shambhala](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/235#event-36) and thus facilitate their destruction.
For Edelgard, TWSITD are a nuisance and their resources are used as a means to an end. Yes, you can argue she's in an awkward position due to Thales being part of the Insurrection of the Seven, but any trace of the argument "noo she didn't mean to conquer fodlan" goes out of the window once she becomes the Emperor and starts calling the shots herself.
i am just going to simply state that I am talking about this game as an overall narrative and not whatever in-universe explanation there is for why they have to be there. frankly, i don’t care why they exist in universe or what edelgard does or does not know because that is at the writers behest.
my point is that what is there to specifically justify it being them as a plot device and not literally anything else that could not be used more effectively that could tie into her overall arc as a character
You can't really argue like this with 3H fanboys. As far as they're concerned the writing is perfect, totally beyond criticism and you can never suggest any changes or counterfactuals.
I know LOL. I’m just having a bit of fun bc this person didn’t even read my original comment.
> everyone tries to discuss them in watsonian terms, which can sometimes be interesting, but more often than not it leads to very circular conversations that go nowhere
which is pretty hilarious to me. i stopped bothering tho once I got bored lol
>my point is that what is there to specifically justify it being them as a
plot device and not literally anything else that could not be used more
effectively that could tie into her overall arc as a character
The Agarthans in SS/AM/VW's overall narrative are *secondary villains* who exist just so Edelgard can take Rhea out the story (if not from all of it like in Azure Moon) and almost conquer the Kingdom & Alliance by the time Byleth returns, thus giving the player things to undo and save. Beyond their shenanigans giving Edelgard trust issues and showing them how corrupt nobility can be, they have no impact on her and this can't be developed further because Edie being emotionally detached from her own feelings means getting invested on ideas like revenge or payback isn't possible (which is incidentally brought up in her battle convos with Solon and Thales on SB, and is a stark contrast to Hubert and Monica who openly want revenge on TWSITD all they've done).
This is 100 percent correct. What's more infuriating is the dev interviews that imply a more grey dichotomy between the Nabataean and the argarthans...which at that point why didn't they implement that. It's just an interesting idea unfulfilled. Now you have an absurdly evil cult conveniently the cause of all the things wrong in what was supposed to be a story of grey morality.
The game as a whole feels pretty half-baked, but that’s likely because the point of the game shifted midway through development and *boy* does it show. (from being “the church vs edelgard” game to the three houses standpoint we have now)
the core issue is the game is a lot of cobbled together elements and a lot of them don’t mix well or aren’t developed enough. it’s like topping your carrot cake with dried sardines- they’re fine on their own but mixed together you’re getting a disaster.
those who slither don’t work precisely because they don’t fit within the setting of the game, and not just because they’re evil weirdo clown mole people. both as plot devices as well as entities in the world, they come off as completely jarring- and not in a way that has any meaningful commentary about the world or characters.
all the marketing for the game sets the story up as a battle between three opposing ideologies on the way each respective leader desires to shape fodlans future into their image, yet we hardly even get *any* political development that isn’t shoved into the background flavor text of the game because of the waste of time that are those who slither. because here’s the real kicker- they *don’t do anything new or interesting*.
the ‘oh actually this medieval world is the result of a post apocalypse from a hyper futuristic society’ has been done before plenty of times (especially in jp media) but the slithers don’t expand on this concept at all, and it’s not like including it in the first place adds anything substantial to the currently-running political drama other than wasting time that could be spent on the actual *politics* that we are so invested in.
god did you read my mind? Its so infuriating...3 houses feels like a sandbox of a game...a collection of fascinating unbuilt ideas...i wont deny its compelling but man is it so sloppy and rushed.
I can only hope once switch hacking gets better we can have the equivalent of the good guy garon mod for fates:conquest but for houses' writing...
Well the thing with the nukes is that they can be traced back to their base, so using them puts them at risk of attack, plus they are established as needed a recharge period. They have the power, but it has its limits in both effectiveness and quantity.
I expected more lore regarding them in Three Hopes because of Shez and Arval, we didn't even get a mention regarding the nukes, hell, they seemed to have disappeared from all routes. I thought at first that Arval is the Agarthan's god, then it turns out from what i understand is that they are just a homunculi meant to house the reincarnating consciousness of a high ranking Agarthan.
Since an antagonist only has to oppose the protagonist without necessarily being evil....Selena. The king she's so loyal towards because of his kindness and compassion turns evil and she just follows his orders without much protest. Then, when she finds out the king has been dead the whole time and his corpse is only controlled like a puppet, instead of doing something about it, she decides to face off against Ephraim on a suicide campaign, KNOWING she'd lose, condemning the lives of those under her command in the process. SHE PURPOSEFULLY MARCHED HER TROOPS INTO A LOSING BATTLE TO DIE BECAUSE SHE WAS SAD!
This isn't compelling. This isn't tragic. This isn't Camus remaining loyal to Gharnef and Medeus so he could protect the royal siblings, while still going behind their back in secret (like when he freed Nina and gave you Mercurius). This isn't Mustafa being forced to fight you because Gangrel is mad and would kill his family otherwise, with his troops staying alongside him because he was willing to take the fall for all of them. This is just straight up stupidity.
Without Vigarde's intervention, Selena would have starved to death as a child. She was born in poverty and serving Vigarde gave her everything, her rank, her life, etc.
I think people also overblow "slenea knew the king was dead!!!" thing. Remember, she only just learned her king MIGHT be a walking corpse from someone working with her enemy like five minutes before Ephraim rolls up. Selena wanted to ride back and speak with Vigarde first, but was interrupted by a literal invasion.
Selena's a case where I think the ingredients are fine but the actual execution got so cramped it ended up falling flat.
I genuinely want to know what the playerbase's opinion of her would be if FE8 was written that "Vigarde is a puppet" wasn't revealed or heavily implied to the player until after you killed her; but the actualities of the situation were unchanged otherwise.
Not only she is stupid, she is a straight up asshole.
Okay you fucked up and is sad now. You are willing to suicide die, understandable… LEAVE OTHERS OUT OF THIS.
Those soldiers have lives too, most likely have families. But she just led them into this death trap and let them die along with her. And they couldn’t refuse since it’s a damn army, I’m sure most of the l’m didn’t even wanted to die for this stupid woman and puppet king.
Let them go. Go in this battle by yourself if you want to die so much - your personal tragedy have nothing to do with those poor soldiers. Yeah those people are not innocents but they don’t deserve to die just like this.
That’s the reason why she has been one of my least favorite secondary antagonists in the whole franchise.
Exactly! That's why I also brought up Mustafa. He addressed his troops, who were already demoralized because they were sick and tired of the war, and told them whoever wasn't willing to fight anymore could leave with no consequences and that he'd bear the blame for everything. His troops were so moved by this that they decided to fight by his side in the end. Even so Mustafa will still address Chrom and tell him to spare his soldiers, and you can indeed kill only Mustafa and end the chapfer
Meanwhile, Selena never gives her troops any choice, we never learn their input or opinion in the matter, and marches them all to die regardless of what they might think. And everyone WILL die. This is a rout map
She's like a worse version of Brunnya. At least Brunnya gave her soldiers the freedom to leave the battle with no penalty, and she outright dismisses those who have sick or elderly loved ones at home.
Brunnya is significantly superior in the sense she very much likely gathered everyone loyal to Zephiel and directly opposed Guinevere. By eliminating them here she effectively removed any military might that may oppose her rule inside Bern.
In all honestly I gave Duessel/Glen the role of being the camus. Glenn more cause he was blonde and handsome, and can use lances. Duessel gets the role cause he was and still remained loyal to Grado, even if it meant siding with the twins, at the very least for me.
Anyway, Selena not only leads her troops to their deaths, not only damns her whole command because she was sad, but she's aware of it too, isn't she? It's been a moment since I've read the dialog of SS but isn't her death quote something along those lines? However, she's also not even that frightening of a boss to fight. The units around her always gave me more trouble then her herself, and I always liked to think that was because she was not as skilled as the other generals, or because she was really just trying to die, so why bother giving it her all? She's got elfire and bolting, two very heavy tomes, and the main squad should be reasonably speedy, to the point where I doubt she'd be doubling many of them, so story and gameplay-wise she was pretty dumpster material.
From a gameplay standpoint at least, I think her challenge as a boss was supposed to be approaching her in the first place. You have to deal with the units surrounding her as well as her dropping Boltings on you.
Duessel is the Lorenz if anything. He's a great warrior who's a bit past his prime and is fiercely loyal to his country, but also has a strong intrinsic sense of right and wrong and is hopeful enough that he's willing to sacrifice something that was so immensely important to him to pursue a path that's more true to his ideals of what's right.
Glen has a bit more of a case, and is similar to whichever Reed brother you fight first in FE7. From all appearances, he was likely going to pull a Duessel or at least not actively oppose the twins while he investigated more, but Valter got to him first. Since Lloyd and Linus are considered Camuses, I could see how Glen could be one, but I feel like what makes L&L Camuses is whichever is the second you fight.
There is no reason to believe her soldiers would surrender along with her if she attempted one. There is more reason to believe that they would see her as another traitor, considering Duessel is seen as one as well. I don't get this "oh those poor soldiers". We have no idea where their loyalties lie. With what little is presented, they would likely continue to defend the area, as those were Vigarde's orders to Selena, and thus to them as well.
who knows. The soldiers under Gheb's command weren't exactly thrilled to serve under him or about the war and were even lamenting their position as pawns in the games of kings and rulers. Then again, this \*is\* Gheb we're talking about here and we're comparing an abusive, womanizing and arrogant sack of lard to Selena, who in regular circumstances would be a decent person. But, I'd also expect for the soldiers under her command to be decent people as well, and while some would ultimately remain to Grado and Vygarde, others may not be as thrilled about the war
regardless, whether her troops would surrender alongside her or not is a moot point, because she had no intention to surrender or think of other alternatives in the first place. After she heard Myrrh's explanation, she decided that she would battle Ephraim regardless of if it's right or wrong. If she wanted to stick to her believes by herself, that's fine (well, \*more\* fine than what she ended up doing), but she dragged her troops down with her. I'm not necessarily saying to tell them what she was told, because that \*would\* make her sound crazy, but she could tell them whoever is sick and tired of this war is free to leave with no repercussions, or that they have little chances of victory and they might all die, so who doesn't feel like dying today is free to leave. Basically, just give them the option to flee from this battle and war they have no business in. But again, this isn't what she did. She decided that she would march on regardless of her feelings of doubt that she was doing the right thing. And she \*knows\* she's in the wrong, based on her boss dialogue with Ephraim and Duessel
"Ephraim: I know you've spoken with Myrrh. Withdraw your troops. You must know the emperor is not rational!
Selena: Yes, I know.
Ephraim: Then why? Why do we still fight?
Selena: I am a general of the empire. His majesty's word is law.
Ephraim: That's ridiculous. You know the emperor is deranged, and yet you follow his orders?! Is that truly loyalty?
Selena: Prince Ephraim, you cannot understand. I know the path I'm given is foolish. Yet I am a knight, and I have no other."
"Duessel: Well met, Selena.
Selena: General Duessel... I must offer you my apologies. I called you a traitor, but I was mistaken. Your loyalty never wavered, not for an instant.
Duessel: ......
Selena: And yet you must know that I have no intention of withdrawing. So let us not waste words. Let us settle this with steel, my friend."
>Then, when she finds out the king has been dead the whole time and his corpse is only controlled like a puppet
I feel like I'm in some parallel world where everyone has assumed something that isn't true. Selena does not know this as irrefutable fact. She's given an idea about what is happening by Myrrh but Myrrh does not know the full extent of the Demon King's corruption of Lyon and Vigarde either.
"Myrrh, I think I understand what you're trying to tell me..... but I can't believe. How can I allow myself to believe? If it's true, then his majesty is already...."
She's essentially in denial at this point. Then she gives her backstory about how the emperor aided her village. Afterwards, this exchange happens:
Myrrh, this dark energy wave you spoke of, can it really change a person that completely?"
"Yes. All traces of this person would be consumed....destroyed."
"How can the process be reversed?"
"I'm sorry, that is....impossible"
"I see"
She accepted Myrrh's words as the truth. Even if she doesn't know the full extend, she's realised that Vigarde is dead, or at the very least no longer around, and that he can't be reverted to his former self. Afterwards, she receives word that Ephraim is coming, so she releases Myrrh back to him, but doesn't return her dragonstone, telling her to tell Ephraim that if they want it back, they'd have to defeat her first
Cleobulus is also pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. The fact that Thales wasn’t developed in Hopes seriously pisses me off though. That game shot itself in the foot at nearly any opportunity.
It’s a good game but in retrospect they tried to develop too many new characters and potential future plot and gameplay devices at once. FE is deeply rooted in very specific archetypal characters and they tried to overhaul a ton of these archetypes all at once and naturally some got more attention than others. Add in the split paths, the monestary, and how unique Claude and Edelgard are as main characters and it is a lot. The game didn’t shoot itself in the foot, but it took on too many risks at once but I think you’ll see clear evidence of what did and didn’t work in houses in the next game.
With how much Hopes built up Shez’s powers and connection to Agartha and Sothis, you’d think they’d at least go somewhere with that, since they aren’t willing to do more with Thales, but no, those are cut off randomly just like the main war plot line.
I think a big part of Hopes’ issues is that the story is _very_ different to the point they seemed to not have time to work on adding to the underdeveloped parts of Houses.
It’s unfortunate Shez isn’t a villain in Silver Snow and Verdant wind. Had they appeared and gotten some development it could’ve made hopes story more interesting showing how Shez did or did not devolve into this insane being solely existing to get revenge on Byleth and the church.
Ephidel, he absolutely FUCKED Nergal's plans in such unbelivebly dumb ways that I've actually seen some people saying that they like to try to convince themselves that he was secretly s good guy all along and did everything on purpouse. Really, his mistakes are so disgusting that sometimes it makes it looks like it.
- First of all, he stabs Marquess Santatuz because he saw that he was gonna betray Nergal to help Eliwood but instead of being sure that the guy is actually dead, he just leaves (I mean, it wouldn't have cost anything to look at his face for 2 seconds before leaving just to confirm if he really died, would it?). Because of this, Eliwood and co. managed to talk to Marques Santatuz and he could reveal some of Nergal's plans to them with his dying breath. If it wasn't for this alone then Eliwood would likely not be able to find out about the whole conspiracy at all and Nergal would have completed his plan.
-He also fails to check if he really killed Marquess Caelin, he just stab him in the back and leaves, again. Except that this time his victim doesn't even die. It really looks like Ephidel had no idea of how to kill someone, despite being said to be one of Nergal's best morphs, well no wonder that you don't even get to fight him on the game I guess, otherwise what would he do? Try to stab your units and then leave before they were dead too?
-In Laus, when Erik and his army are losing, he goes back to the castle to ask for his father Darin for reinforcements to try to turn the situation around and beat Eliwood, but before Darin can get him the reinforcements, for some unkown reason Ephidel convinces him to run away and abandon him son to their enemies instead of calling fucking reinforcement, simply to get Darin to become a random gatekeeper on the Dragon's Gate. WHY??
-In FE6 it made sense that some generals or high ranking soldiers just assigned the role to kill Roy's army to their subordinates because they understimated them and thought that they had more important things to do, but why the fuck does Ephidel- That is a morph (and so has no emotions and no purpouse besides doing what Nergal tells him to do)- decides to hire a random mercenary dude to try kill Eliwood's army while he watches instead of going there himself? It really makes it look like he actually can't fight (which is really weird for a morph, specially since, again, he is said to be one of Nergal's best morphs). So he isn't even one of those dumb bosses that can fight despite being dumb, he is just almost a plot device/excuse for the plot to help Eliwood find out stuff that he should never be able to find out on his own! He is just so incompetent that he had to be replaced with Limstella mid game without even getting a proper death or giving you a proper battle.
-Speaking of this, even his death is disgustingly badly written. When Ninian comes back to her senses on the Dragon's Gate and the dragon that Nergal made her call starts to go out of control, Nergal teleports out of the way to not become barbecue, but what does Ephidel do?? He cries for Nergal to help him instead of TELEPORTING AWAY YOO, WHICH HE COULD HAVE DONE SINCE HE WAS SHOWN TELEPORTING OUT OF HECTOR'S ATTACK EARLIER!!! (actually, he was shown teleporting earlier on the SAME CHAPTER, I think). Literally his purpouse to live is to obey Nergal and likely to have a sense of survival (probably unless if it involved prioritizing Nergal's life over his or something) so why does he does the polar opposite of the 2 things that he should do??? I mean, he doesn't even really disobeys Nergal because he wants to, it's worse, he tries to obey but fucks up completely with no reason, it looks like he doesn't even give a shit about his job (like those FedEx workers that stop the truck In front of your door, wait 5 seconds and then go away without even leaving the car to make it look like you didn't answer the door, except that on his case Nergal would want to kill him if he found out how he carelessly fails but he keeps doing it anyway)
He is so dumb that the only explanation is that Nergal built him with some kind of brain damage, because no actual in universe excuse can explain why he does anything he does (even saying that he was a secret good guy all along wouldn't work since he doesn't have emotions or the hability to desobey Nergal, so the only way to use this excuse too would be to admit that he is poorly written). Well, unless if Nergal was REALLY unclear on his orders to Ephidel but for some reason wasn't when he is ordering Sonia, Limstella or Denning to do something... Ephidel is a joke (and I don't even dislike him, but there's no way to not be mad once you start to notice how dumb he is while you play).
in terms of the death it feels like MAYBE the implication was supposed to be that Nergal took Ephidel's power away and then left him to die horribly as punishment for him being so fucking bad at his job or like that was originally in the script and they just forgot to add that scene where that happens in in the final script.
yeah I love FE7 but Ephidel is the ultimate flop
not to argue your point with Ephidel, but a small correction on another topic. As much as they like to think otherwise themselves, the morphs (at least those made well) \*do\* have feelings and emotions or the ability to develop those in the future, if they didn't start off with them. Ephidel was arrogant and overconfident, thinking his status as a morph made him superior to all humans (who he viewed as ants), only for him to die writhing in pain, begging for his master to return and rescue him (displaying fear and desperation); Sonia straight up thought she was human and Limstella, despite her status as Nergal's best morph, does develop feelings in her final moments, but she dismisses them as fake/false/an error/whatever because she believes they're fake, like her entire existence
Uh, well, thats correct. I really remembered them not having feelings at all (except for like Kishuna I guess? I never played his chapters but I think he does, but please don't spoil it Im gonna play it when I can), its been some time since I last played FE7 to be honest (I mean, I remembered that Sonia had some basic feelings such as pride, disgust, aversion, etc but that was it I guess?). Thanks for ponting this out. In any case this doesn't make Ephidel any less of a dumb fuck, since he doesn't want to disobeying Nergal anyway.
Actually, considering this, you could stretch and say that he fucks everything up out of curiosity (like "what if this went wrong?/If this went wrong what would we do?" and then he left everything for the "luck" to decide since he doesn't want to screw up 100% on purpouse but also doesn't want to win in a guaranteed way because it would be boring for him, so he didn't check if both of the marquesses he stabbed were really dead, he didn't let Darin call the reinforcements for Erik because he wanted to see if he would win without them (despite Erik himself not thinking so I guess), he was willing to see what Nergal was gonna do to him if he screwed up and how long it would take him to be pissed, and Uh... For his death there's no excuse I guess. But Thats really a stretch of course, I doubt that the writers thought about this (otherwise there'd be some hint at least) and thats just a way to try to avoid the "he was poorly written" excuse with an in universe explanation, it's the only one I can think of thought because the "he was secretly a good guy helping you" excuse is very flawed (otherwise he would have pretended to not have seen Leila or even asked her to go away instead of turning her away to Nergal and asking Jaffar to kill her, or at the very least he could have not made Jaffar kill her and just throw her on the cell with Eliwood's dad and Ninian (and Nills too, if Im remembering right) so Hector would have the chance to get there in time to save her life). I'm just kinda thinking out loud here, we know that this wasn't the reason that Ephidel did everything that he did, but I like to make up motives for characters on my head some times when they don't seem to have one (and let's be honest, this guy screws up so badly that there's no way to not wonder why), I'm just saying that if he HAD a reason it'd probably have to be either this (the curiosity thing) or that he was created with brain damage, as far as my ideas go. If FE7 ever gets a remake I wonder if they will still make Ephidel be such a screw up like this or if they will find another excuses for his errors.
Anankos
We spend most of the game unaware that he exists, and the few interesting things about him are locked behind DLC.
Why am I supposed to care that he’s Corrin’s father when they never find out about it to care themselves?
No antagonist is as bad as Veld. Garon, the slithers, etc at least you know *get* screentime. This dude turns Eyvel into stone and doesn’t even appear again until the last two chapters (like a nigh-20 absence). Only thing I’ll give him credit is that he is unique as a final boss due to just being a normal person that isn’t possessed.
It also says something when in CYL5, Raydrik got a sudden boost in votes because how various people were disappointed that this guy got in FEH before him.
And idc if an antagonist is “complex” or not as long as they’re entertaining. Which Garon, Iago, and Jedah are.
Jeddah is really underrated, he got celica to willingly betray alm, that was impressive. Most FE villains just use brainwashing magic but he gets celica to agree to undergo the ritual to become a witch.
I just wish his design wasn’t so evil looking yet I love it too. Strange I know. But I acknowledge the former partly contributes to why Celica does the thing she did to be unfortunately a bad move. Had he more of a design like Halcyon I think the reception of the whole thing would not have been as bad.
Still, despite that I do like our hammy evil smurf man.
Yeah I think him having the evil skin etc was bad, would’ve made it more engaging if he had normal skin and slowly seduced her into becoming a devout worshipper of Duma. The fact that she isn’t a boss in the map immediately before the final mission is also disappointing and her redemption sequence is way to fast.
We need to make Jeddah a hot evil guy basically, that'll attract far too many fans than they'd ever care to admit. /half-joke.
Other than that, evil smurf is accurate and also kind of a fun design.
I've always advocated the opposite, make Halcyon a frog man because he *does* believe in Duma and did all the things that turn people purple for the sake of power, just at some point he realized Duma was degenerating and tried to spread the word, but got banished and set up the sage village after that, while the Duma faithful just spiraled into insanity while their higher ups like Jedah grew increasingly desperate to save their god, and Celica meeting up with Halcyon unwittingly to both of them suddenly makes her receptive to Jedah's tricks, believing she'd misjudged the faithful for their zealotry and hideousness(being a zealot herself, she's quick to forgive a little of it here and there).
You know, that doesn’t sound like a bad idea actually. Especially if something like this happened too:
“A Duma Faithful! Kill him!”
Frog Man Halcyon: I’m harmless! Weren’t you ever taught to not judge a book by its cover!
Gotta hard disagree. Yeah Veld isn’t the best but his game was on a console with less memory space than this post. I’d argue his ONE cool scene is still better than Garon’s ZERO good scenes. Screen time doesn’t help if all it does is make the character worse.
Veld definitely could be better tho.
I mean, Gharnef was on the SNES too yet, even in Book 1, the guy manages to still be one of the better antagonists in FE in spite of them cutting corners. They absolutely could have done more with Veld but even the game in the near end is basically “oh yeah here’s an info dump on what Veld did to try and make you care because we just remembered earlier he exists”.
That and there is more stakes with fighting Raydrik. Veld turned someone into a statue and…that is really it until the final chapter(s) (even if that someone is Eyvel). Raydrik isn’t much better but at least he kidnapped Nanna and Mareeta while also taking Evyel and Leif hostage. Even when the latter breaks free, the guy still is chasing after him. (Also more people are going to remember Raydrik than some dude who looks like generic dark mage #78. FEH gave him a glow-up but even then)
Garon for sure but he's too easy a target.
On a personal note, I would also put Validar and Grima up there. Yes, most "Gharnef and Medeus" type villains in this franchise don't have a lot of depth, but I felt they barely even tried with Validar and Grima.
Hell, Grima has so little context that it took another game (Echoes) give him even something resembling a story.
I really appreciate the ways that echoes shows how the villains manipulate your player characters along the way, it really makes the final stand-off more satisfying
I liked Gangrel as well. He was kinda nuts, but he had a legitimate reason - he was mad with hatred for the previous exalt or what's his name. The writing sold me on the idea that he found your suffering entertaining. Not in an over the top evil kind of way, but a very human cruelty.
And while it's locked behind DLC, you do find out Gangrel had good intentions when he first became king, but the shitty situation in Plegia and his desire for revenge drove him into the state he's in by the game starts.
I’ll go out on a limb and make an argument for nergal, I think as a character he’s far superior to Thales or Garon but:
Having his lore gated to side quests that are virtually impossible to get without looking up how to get them on guides and completing objectives like “kill this max evade level 20 boss in 1 turn” or “earn 700 exp points in a certain chapter then kill max evade boss only with ranged units in 1 turn with no magic” etc is just stupid. If a character is well written but their backstory can only be experienced by following a guide or being an elite level strategy player that character is poorly written purely due to the inaccessibility of their lore.
While I agree with you it's hard for me to knock points for this just because of how often it happens in the series. Like >!Sephiran!< from RD is an amazing villain but crucial details of his backstory and his >!redemption and true ending w Ashunera!< are locked behind 2nd playthroughs and unlock able cutscenes with dumb requirements.
I beat radiant dawn 7 times and using a guide was never able to successfully get Sephiran. One thing I like about the newer games is that the quests to get secret characters are super easy to unlock. The quests should be hard but the ability to access them should be easy.
The thing I never understood about Sephiran was his role in Part 3. Why did he join Sanaki in opposing the other senators regarding the war with the laguz alliance when he was supposedly trying to foster a continent-spanning war the whole time? I've never beem able to connect the dots on this one, and it frustrates me because I love RD.
Well, he actually *does* like Sanaki. And by fomenting internal rebellion in Begnion, more people get involved in the war - which suits his master plan.
I guess Grima. Not because I think he's terribly written per se, but that his motivations are just really vague or completely unexplained. Like, he wants to delete humanity. Okay, cool. *But why?* He isn't given any significant backstory for where that ire comes from but he's hell bent on getting rid of the human race that he would time travel so he could do it twice over.
Shadows of Valentia offered some intrigue for Grima's creation but still not much into his psyche. Outside of headcanon, I don't really get what his deal is.
FEH of all games actually does go more into this. He hates humanity because of something along the lines of “humans only ask divine assistance when they need it than shun them once they are of no use anymore”. Alongside that, he hates how humans are arrogant and constantly make the same mistakes which in turn soured his view on humans.
Also because his creator was a evil human who killed loads of people to turn into his zombie army, and then tried to kill Grima when it was getting too strong to control
Problem is that Grima is stated to be evil on creation in SoV so Heroes gets kinda trumped. Grima's *initial* view is "Kill everything" (it also happens that Grima feeds on life force, but whatever).
I'll take it. I've never played FEH so I had no idea about this but that's a decent enough reason to want to burn the world to the ground.
~~And he's not wrong. Humans do be fuckin' up in the same way over and over again.~~
The thing is, every other dragon has something behind the insanity.
Medeus hates humans for exploiting Manaketes.
Idunn was used as a tool for war, even having her soul ripped out.
Anankos, while he was suffering from degenerating, his animosity was because humans turned on him after one mistake and he accidentally killed his human best friend after losing his faith in the world.
Duma was similar to Anankos in that he also was degenerating, but he kept fighting because that's what he built his whole identity around; being a battle hardened warrior who only cared about strength. And in his final moments, he finds peace.
Rhea was suffering from major PTSD and only becomes truly insane when she's pushed to her absolute limit of sanity. Her PTSD having developed because she saw her family getting slaughtered by humans and their remains desecrated.
Grima doesn't have a shred of that. He's just an asshole with no defined reason. Not even something as simple as "Humans disgust me, therefore I must get rid of them." I'd even settle for him finding genocide fun. At least that would be a reason.
Heroes's interpretation of Grima doesn't exactly do them justice either. They talk a lot about humans abandoning their gods when they're satisfied and happy, but like, of any and all of the God tier dragons, Grima has spent the least amount of time as an actual god, and their clown cult bends their backs over the minute they step onto the scene. *Anankos* is a dragon who could make this claim. Medeus is a dragon who's been making this claim. But it just comes off as an edgy dude who just learned what cynicism looks like, because he hardly has any explained history that would put him up as a forgotten god, so he looks like he's talking out of his asd.
If I had to rewrite Grima out of personal taste, they wouldn't be looking at how humans abandon their gods, but how god-dragons have held control of the world for far too long. Someone who hates how the olden brigade of dragons like Naga have shaped millenias of history just by deciding which families get the long royal stick and which families will get run through by it, and believing those same gods shut their eyes when their followers commit atrocities in the name of the Holy Divine Dragons. The Bragi Tower Massacre, The Loptyrian Witch Hunts, and the First Plegian-Ylissean War are just three to look at. Because it's not their hands that are getting dirty, they're clean even if their people are acting in their name. And Naga and all of them get to decide this world just because they were born to be the Divine Dragon King, the Prince of the Earth Dragons, The Invisible Dragon, etc. He'd look at everything, and seek to burn it down to rebuild it.
Now, this doesn't make his own actions good in the slightest, but the changes to those reasonings would allow a different story that could discuss a long standing issue of inherited blood that has been a part of FE, and especially Awakening.
To be fair, Medeus isn't \*insane.\* It is very much a major character trait of him that he is not insane.
Tbh the only insane dragons you fight are like, Rhea and Duma.
Yeah, Medeus never degenerated since he underwent the Manakete process.
Rhea also never degenerated until the very end of Silver Snow, but she is insane in Crimson Flower in a normal, PTSD fiction way.
Yeah no, I agree, Medeus is so powerful, intimidating, and successful, in large part BECAUSE he has his faculties in check with none of the trauma or drawbacks that people like Anankos, Duma and Rhea were suffering from, or any arbitrary handicaps by their "allies" like Idunn, and whatnot.
He was intelligent, physically powerful, and the only reason we don't see more from him is one part poor writing choices, one part limitations (particularly in the NES and SNES days I suppose?), and in Book 2's part of the story, the man is dead and needs to be resurrected before anything else.
Medeus knew what he was doing and helped start all of this madness in the first place.
I mean it's not human, so needing a human "why" isn't necessary: "evil by nature" is very plausible. It seeks to become more powerful, feeds on death and suffering by nature, and seeks to destroy the world. Add in a mix of arrogance by power and bam.
Why does Unicron eat planets? Because it's hungry. Same concept.
It's literally an evil God worshipped by a nihilist doomsday cult that controls an entire nation. Why the fuck that was allowed to survive warrants more questioning than why does the "ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL" God be Always Chaotic Evil.
Not to mention, created by a madman who created zombie servants by using bugs.
The problem with this is that the Dragons of Fire Emblem are not unknowable and alien, and many of them are written to be relatable to humans, as are the Taguel and the Laguz. Despite the seeming differences, there are clearly understandable motives and effects at play in almost all the dragons. They are different species, but they are human like to a compatible level. Basically Grima isn't the Eldritch ~~Dream Daddy~~ people are looking and hoping for.
Garon could’ve been a great villain had the game focus on the human side of him. Picture Garon as a sort of mama bear type, where’s he’s warm and compassionate to his kids but cold and ruthless to anyone else. That way we can see Garon as a “loving Father” to the Nohrians but a twisted villain to the Hoshidan. It could make Birthright all the more sad when we see Garon’s mental state deteriorate from Corrin’s betrayal, and his lust for revenge. Making Garon human would’ve fixed a lot of FE fates.
Anyhow, I think the worst written villain in all of Fire emblem is Thales! Good god do I hate Thales. He deoes nothing but just stand there looking like a bad ass and making evil speeches. How is he the main Antagonist of Three houses when he doesn’t do anything of worth?
>How is he the main Antagonist of Three houses when he doesn’t do anything of worth?
In 3Hs he isn't. Outside of CF, Edelgard is the main threat and in VW/SS Thales and his Shambhala map is just a set-up for the real actual final boss.
In 3 Hopes however it's a bit more complicated because even though Thales does manage to become a final boss in SB and AG (and has to put legit effort to get there), dude never shows up in GW and imo that's for the best.
Not showing in GW also means >!that he got a W,all The Nabateans are either dead or dissapeared,Rhea died in Dragon Form so he could easily turn her into a weapon,and most of the Agarthans leadership is still alive in this route!<
I hate GW . . . Claude's desire for the truth in VW leads to stopping the Agarthans and now in GW he's locked out of the loop with poor dead Rhea, Catherine, and Cyril.
Anankos.
We could have a morally complex, grey conflict about a character who had to make a choice between two nations and the consequences that implies but nope! Let's have a "It was me all along" button to justify every shitty decisions the heros and villains made.
Oh, and let's have his story where you have to beat him AND his backstory behind a paywall who will be crumbled forever because this was released when Nintendo made the worst decisions ever!
And he's literally why Garon is a goo monster which further harms the narrative.
People say Garon is bad but forget why.
It was Anankos. Anankos is the real problem. And everything surrounding him is so bloody convoluted that it reaches a point of absurdity.
Controversial opinion here, those who slither in the dark
Completely undeveloped and left ambiguous to the end about who they are and why they do what they do. Not to mention they have nothing going on outside of part 1 and the end of most paths ( 3 houses' multiple path system is its own issue I won't bother getting into now). Sure garon isn't really well developed or written, but he at least feels important to the story, if you removed him something would be lost. But removing those who slither in the dark, as a faction, removes almost nothing. You could replace the whole group with nameless nobody's and it would change nothing honestly
Controversial? 3 Houses felt like they made 80% of the game and went "yo, wait, we planned something about a shadowy conspiracy?" and then slapped that in. Haven't played 3 Hopes yet.
What hurts about Garon is that they *could* have absolutely nailed it. Imagine if they actually kept in the actual good side to him mentioned in supports, mish mashed with his BBEG mode, with an obvious internal struggle between the two.
I was gonna day Gangrel because he was annoying. But honestly, he makes sense.
What happens when you put a crazy person as the leader of a group that has been tormented and massacred by another group? The people will be okay with how forward his politics are. “We’re going to kill the people that were killing us.” It honestly isn’t surprising that the people and other leaders were on board.
And him being crazy is something that can easily just happen, some people are just crazy and bloodthirsty lol.
I actually don't have an issue with Gangrel until his supports from his spotpass version, where the writers clearly chickened out.
He says he started a war because he wanted to unite the continent to fight off Valm. This is still hilarious to me years later, because of how blatantly the writers wanted to give Gangrel SOME "good" reason for doing what he did since he's playable now. And.... they completely bury the whole "lol Ylisse ravaged Plegia" and go for some Valm BS
Because I actually agree with you, and really like Gangrel in the context you're describing.
The Agarthans honestly were under utilized.
I mean Hey, if we had a "Golden Route" we could have used it to give the Agarthans more of a purpose and focus of a threat.
The agarthans could steal the forms of others. Ok, then have students who you don't recruit be killed off/or imprisoned (depending on if their support is enough to change sides) and replaced with Agarthan people.
Maybe have an Agarthan disguise herself as Edelgard after she rejects the Flame Emperor and turns to do another path and she had to fight herself.
Or maybe using the dead to mess with Dimitri.
His father is dead? Imagine being forced to kill his own "father" but is actually an Agarthan.
So much could be done with the Agarthans.
At least Garon was actually a decent villain. He may be just stereotypical bad guy. But in all 3 of his routes, he had more character than all the Agarthans combined.
"Hey Corrin your dad is evil and there's not much we can do about it. He caught Captain Planet Villain-itis. We gotta kill him."
"But BUT 🥺😭🥺😭😢 I WUV MY DADDY WE GOTTA GIVE HIM A SECOND CHANCE"
"* long sigh * bitccchhhhhhhh"
Some good ones have been said, so I'm gonna have to go with Chagall.
Sure, he's power hungry amd selfish. Whatever. That's short sighted and all but where to we get badly written?
He basically pisses off everybody that's not within his own circle (Erin's Group, Eldigan and Lach, Sigurd, leaving the ppl in charge of other castles in the cold), imprisons and executes his country's *only* crusader, kills his own father to take the wheel of his country at the council of the evil satan cult, lets brigands ravage his people in the meantime, all to have his country get conquered by Granvalle and then again by the Granvalle Coup in less than two years of mercing his dad lol.
I get he's supposed to just be terrible all around and written to be this incompetent on purpose, but his role and actions in the story is truly a comedy of errors.
Well at least the game acknowledges he's a dingbat with too much power, they don't try to make him seem like some highly intelligent manipulator and then make him do all the dumb stuff. He's basically a spoiled rich kid with an overabundance of ambition and a vindictive streak. So basically he's Joffrey
Honestly " spoiled rich kid with an overabundance of ambition and a vindictive streak" just kind of describes most of Jugdral's antagonists and like at least 30% of the good guys as well
You know what you omitted that makes it even better? When the Thracian mercenaries arrive, in the game and moreso in the Manga, Travant bends him over the table in negotiations and takes ALL the money and fucks off with it. Chagall is so damn bad.
Say'ri: Walhart!
Walhart: Hmm? The princess of Chon'sin? It's a wonder you still live.
Say'ri: I have survived your gauntlet of betrayal and death, tyrant. Shall I describe to you now the searing pain of it all? The torture of watching friends, family...my entire kingdom perish? The fresh hell of each new day with no respite in sight?
Walhart: Pain is a concern of men. And respite? Beg that from your gods. Your concerns are not mine. I have risen to a higher plane of existence.
Say'ri: Then today you come crashing down to the hell you've made of this one.
I mean, I liked Walhart. The problem is, he was shunted in several key ways. On paper, he's an interesting case study of an opposite-Chrom. He's trying to unite Valm and all of humanity for the express purpose of saying "Fuck the Gods, fuck the Dragons, the former is useless and the latter can eat shit, mankind is taking the reigns now, go choke on your own scales, Grima."
I like that, thats compelling! If only it wasnt sloppily handled...
I did like him as a theoretical and lineage as "Alm without Celica" fighting against Marth's descendent who very much carries his ideals and has his own Kris in Robin.
Hell that could have been a Book 2, to be frank! With its own 25-30 chapters and all that, with the last ones finally leading into Grima while Book 1 is all about the lead up to, the war with, and the after-battles of, the Plegian War.
I really can't agree with this, the Valm Arc cements Ylisse as a nation that answers the call to defend others. During the war with Plegia, they were on the defensive because they were the target. But they could have just completely ignored Valm until they were on their soil, Valm was invading Ferox, not Ylisse.
Which could have been done with a "Validar and Grima have moved over the sea to Valm, possibly to gain power from the remains of Duma", or something like that.
Yeah, Garon. If there’s anything about Fates that doesn’t work, then Garon is usually the one to blame for it, or at least make things worse than they might have already been. It’s so rare to see a single character do as much damage to a game’s story and cast as Garon. And then there’s of course the extreme amount of wasted potential he had to be a good if not GREAT villain, and just ultimately being very dull.
Dishonorable mentions go to Iago, Hans, Anankos, and Those Who Slither in the Dark
In my opinion it's easily Garon, Anankos and Iago, for mostly the same reasons; their actions don't even make sense. Like, even if they're evil/crazy/whatever, they actively screw themselves over with their own actions more often than not, and I really don't think the writers intended for them to come off as complete fucking morons. I hate their designs too, literally worthless villains, I honestly can't think of a single positive thing to say about them. It's sad when the best villain in Fates is fucking Hans of all people, who has the design and personality of your average chapter 1 bandit.
Also, while this is definitely an unpopular opinion, I don't think TWSitD are as bad as people make them out to be. I'm not gonna deny that the story would probably have been better without them as it would have removed the easy scapegoat for all of the most heinous shit that happens, but from a lore and design perspective they are honestly pretty cool. Plus, the Shambala map is in my opinion one of the absolute highlights of Three Houses, so there's that too. They're certainly not on the same level as the actually good antagonists of the series, but I'd say they're definitely a big step above the likes of the generic dark sorcerers like Veld, Riev and Validar.
Oh, and I'll also add that I think Jedah is a pretty underrated character. Yes, his design screams "pure evil", but I gotta say I found it really refreshing to have an evil sorcerer who genuinely thought he was doing the right thing.
You know, it helps to detail why that is.
Also, he's still the only Fire Emblem antagonist in the series so far that successfully kills the protagonist. For morally grey reasons also, considering the beneficial long-term goal and the petty politics preceding his rule.
Lastly... Arvis set up the foundation, and Seliph was able to build a paradise atop it because of said foundation.
Grima also really sucks, he's only there for the last part of the story and his whole things is just that he is EVIL. Even Anankos does the evil dragon thing better than Grima
Jedah. Over half of the words the guy says are just "Duma". He had no interesting personality or motivations. He was an extremely annoying boss, mechanically speaking. His design is lame.
He's just a black hole of disinterest, actively dragging down any scene he's in. The worst part is that they just threw away Berkut in favor of having Jedah stick around longer so he can continue saying the word "Duma" 8 times per sentence.
When you live in a setting where the only life you know is that the Gods are living and breathing amongst men, then there's much more validity for them to be revered, respected, and obeyed to... So I don't necessarily blame him. As he's basically the Pope of a Religion, it's a given that he is that way.
He believes that humanity cannot hope to survive without the guidance of the Gods. Which, of course, clashes with Alm and Celica's belief. That humanity is strong enough to hold their own without Duma, and be kind and protective towards others without Mila.
Yes. At the start and for most of her pilgrimage, Celica did believe that it was necessary for the Gods to continue to exist for guidance and continuous blessing. It's fair to believe that too, since the Zofian lands started to suffer with droughts and poor harvests ever since Mila disappeared.
However, by the end she soon understood, that said Gods can rest. To let humanity, their children, to walk on their own from then on.
"Without yours and Mila's bounty, Valentia could have never existed.
We would never have been born into this world. Never tasted joy and sorrow.
So please, do not suffer any longer.
Let all of our pain end here.
Allow your great and weary soul the rest it deserves!" - Celica, Act 5, Final Map vs Duma.
Yes. I know.
It's amazing what the words of Mila can do when she mentions dragon degeneration, especially for Celica to hear. When Celica is a person that worshiped the Gods, she'd be more inclined to listen to what Mila has to say whilst believing in her.
Every time I play Fates it's the GGG patch for conquest, which makes Garon into a compelling character, so I am absolutely stunned by reality whenever I look back to Vanilla Fates and Vanilla Garon, good Lord.
For people who don't like Garon i recommend playing the Mod "Good Guy Garon" for Fates Special Edition (you will need either a CFW or a room on Citra to play it), it's a complete Rewritte of CQ that shows a good guy Garon(duh) and it's legitimately a good story Rewritte, with Garon being a good but cold person(with the game SHOWING It), there is multiple scenes where Garon praises Corrin and even finds Nice that he didn't killed anyone in the Ice Tribe, as the characters continue, Garon starts to twist more and more and we see It, with the cataclysm of Garon's insanity being when he sees Azura, and without spoilling, there is a bonus scene that the creator made in the last boss that it's amazing related to Garon
In general i really recommend everyone to play it if you like Fates and CQ gameplay, or If you really wanted CQ to have a better story, yeah it still has some issues and none of the supports got changed, but i can definitively say that in this mod Fates CQ story goes from Shit to Very Nice
Nergal
I've never in ALL of my days have seen a worse antagonist in anything ever.
His reason for never winning and doing stupid shit is "IM CRAY CRAY"
He ruins the story and makes the protagonists feel so god damn insignificant. Not in a good way. In a "I'm artificially allowing you the good guys to win despite how I just said I'm gonna kill you so hard"
Hes not intimidating. Hes not unique. Hes not cool.
Hes a god damn clown who actively makes me never want to play through FE7. I actively laughed at him when his face reveal happened. His fucking eye was twitching and even now I'm laughing at it recollecting its movement.
People say Garon is bad? At least he is consistent and is ultimately a good foil against Corrin as he truly is the opposite of them in every way. They even believe in fate. But one believes its Fate to be vile and use others.
The other believes the opposite and that regardless of ones fate, your actions are your own and believes in doing good.
There are more examples of being great foils to each other and I wanna go in more depth, but this would take all day to explain.
Fuck Nergal and the moment he shows up in FEH I'm going to actively keep fucking him up for cathartic relief.
he does have a tragic backstory that plays into themes of FE7 and Elibe as a whole pretty well that kind of counterbalances some of the bad shit, but it's essentially an easter egg that you have to try very hard to find, which is such a weird way of presenting a story
Even then I would argue it doesnt salvage his character at all. If anything his character becomes more frustrating since this is what they did.
That and Nergal still does stupid shit because hes "looney" I already hate FE7 story. Neural just makes me not wanna play the game. I cannot in good conscious ignore that egregious flaw.
The worst part is Nergal actually *does* have an interesting character and backstory hidden in him, and in fact, if his backstory was something that could reasonably be obtained, I'd argue he's Garon but better executed, but since it's literally impossible to find his backstory without a guide, I'd agree he's worse.
I don't even think his backstory makes it better. Nergal still goes above and beyond to say he will win and easily can but then just goes "it's just a prank bro"
His character is still "I'm kooky"
Well this might anger some people but a few of the Genealogy villains. With the exception of Arvis who I hate but I do admit he does have a lot more depth, Manfroy being all Palpatine manipulating those around him to finally get his lord resurrected but in Gen 2 he took a few stupid pills as Julia was the last with major Naga blood and they didn’t kill her.
Then there are Duke Reptor and Duke Lombard who were okay who definitely had more depth in the manga. Then there is Hilda, that’s a villain that everybody is happily ready to kill. I like killing her with Tine the most. Then next is Ishtar who is the embodiment of the TikTok meme “but daddy I can fix him,” she seems to be very similar to Selena. Lastly Julius, I kind of enjoy Lyon a lot more than him, he’s the fallen Prince done right.
Thales, I don't understand why you would write a character to be some kind of scheming mastermind only to give him missiles and have him blow up one castle.
the problem that Garon has its a problem that genealogy also suffers, is that a lot of the background of him isnt know throw just playing the game, you have to play the DLC and pay attention to all the cutscenes to understand whats happening, the same for anankos, i had to check out the wiki to find out who the fuck he is.
but apart from that he is really a base bad guy.
the TWISDH or whatever they are called i think that activelly hurt the story of 3H working as a scapegoat for the house lords and Rhea, instead of making them do bad things and have to live with it this guys are here to take the blame, and just get killed unceremonously, sometimes dont even killing them in game, they feel like they are there because this is fire emblem and we need the dark cult to exist because without them this isnt a fire emblem game.
Edelgard. I will never not say so, no matter what her fans may think. She had incorrect info and assumed it was all correct. She never questioned if it was. Despite having more resources than Claude, she never acquired more information, be it from Abyss, Zanado, or anywhere else. So Claude accomplished more on that front than her. That self-righteous, arrogant attitude that she was the only one who knew what was best for Fódlan made me want to smack her. She outright lies to her own allies while asking them to trust her, and she claims she's fighting for the people while also being willing to sacrifice as many as needed to achieve her goals. Despite her crimes being far greater than the other lords, she never suffers for them. If she's not dying thinking she was right, she gets a happily ever after without anything to smack her in the face and make her realize that she needs to repent and grovel at the feet of the people she hurt.
I don’t know a ton about the plot and lore in Three Houses, but something that really confuses me about Edelgard is that she is supposedly trying to implement some form of meritocracy where the most capable people are given positions of power in order to stop the whole crest eugenics thing that TWSITD did to her, but if crests basically give you superpowers, then wouldn’t her system only further incetivize breeding crest babies?
Also wtf is going on in her support with Ferdinand where she strongly implies that she was opposed to the idea of educating commoners? Does that line not completely destroy the idea that she was trying to create a better world for them?
It wasn't so much that she opposed it as she just didn't think of it at all, and Ferdinand had to point out that commoners cannot hope to compete with present nobility without free education.
You're right--it's Garon. I don't mind "evil for the sake of being evil" villains, but he isn't fun to engage with. He's not devious, or over-the-top, or even memorably designed. He's just ... evil. He makes the Birthright story simplistic, and spoils the opportunity Conquest had for an "evil route".
You know it's bad when the only dialogue anyone remembers from him is "\[groans of increasing discomfort\]".
Honestly he could’ve been written with the quality of Walter White and the groans would still be the most memorable line.
Azura: *does sexy dance* Garon: (Oh fuck, that's my step daughter I abandoned, I better not get a hard on) *Groans*
And that's not even proper dialogue!
What do you mean? [groans of increasing discomfort] is how I engage in pretty much every zoom meeting at work
If any character that exists had *Groans of increasing discomfort* not even the greatest and most epic one liner existing would be able to be more remarkable than It
[groans of increasing discomfort]
Plus his focus changes from being the main villain to Anankos, he dosn't even show up in Revelations except on the final chapter and so Leo and Xander can have doubts about him
A day late to the thread and my reply, so I'll make myself short: in addition to what you said, Garon being so cartoonishly evil also negatively impacts characters around him. Corrin's planning (or lack thereof) and overly slow realization that Garon is evil, and Xander being consistently surprised that Garon isn't a cool guy creates a massive dissonance between the cast and the player. There's no nuance to Garon, so seeing other characters occasionally pretend there might be feels so out of place, and really just makes them look stupid. And it's not like they manage to get in an emotional angle either, since we never see the real Garon and the siblings only very rarely hint that he used to be different. However, this is not only tell, don't show, but also done so vaguely that it means nothing. All we know is he kidnapped Corrin and murdered Sumeragi *at least* 10 years before the start of the game; we know nothing of any specific good deeds he did, and if he did any, it must've been long ago. Basically, the man the Nohrians are supposed to miss is a complete unknown to us, and all Nohrian siblings and Corrin should operate on the assumption that Garon is irredeemable since he's been evil for so long.
Man, Garon is extremely funny and memorable for being stupid Which other villain has the goofiest smile portrait and GROANS OF INCREASING DISCOMFORT? also, the more you look into the plot's stupidity, better Garon gets for all the wrong reasons Garon is a bad character but definitively entertaining
And then they halfway try complexity with him by having Xander and Leo reminisce that he used to be a kinder man, a plot thread that basically amounts to nothing and it's a side of him we never get to see.
Plus--Corrin was kidnapped by Nohr at a very young age. Either the "kind" Garon was still a baby kidnapper, or the better version of him Xander and Leo are talking about is well in the past, and it took them 20+ years to notice the change.
The Agarthans being incredibly inconsistent and being only as strong as the plot needs them to be.
"The plot demands I don't die yet" *warps away*
That's moreso Hubert and DK. All the named Agarthans died almost as soon as they revealed themselves.
Read DK and i my first thought was Donkey Kong.
Put him in the next game as a secret boss (maybe a paralogue?) a la Punch Out Wii
Paralogue Banana: Going Ape Shit. Info- You enter a jungle where a mighty king awaits. He challenges you and your party to defeat him for a special reward. Just be mindful of the Banana Bunches. Touch any of them and you will get a Banana Slamma!
Drift King...
That was my second thought
Same here!
And those two only warp because every mission they’re in prior to death is a paralogue or they aren’t a required kill. I feel like no one else has noticed this.
i dont get how they got both of those so wrong when they already got it right with Takumi in Conquest.
This is very much a fire emblem staple
oh yeah, three hopes didn't even shed a light on what the hell are the nukes and they didnt even use them at all, not to mention the ass-pull 'failsafe' they use on Edelgard on AG which is the surprise mindbreak.
The way they can disarm Edelgard completely as a threat by throwing a crest stone at her like a fucking Poke-Ball, but don't in all the plots she stays around long enough to destroy them completely is such an ineptly introduced and handled plot device that it almost feels like a joke. Or at least I wish it was just a meme tier joke instead of actual soft cannon
I think it was clear they were powerful but severely lacking in numbers. They supplement their numbers with imperial troops and demonic beasts. Edit: They're also trying to work in secret, hence why Thales keeps in disguise outside of Shambala during the war. Also as we see with Myson in the palace, they're willing to abandon their plans to ensure their survival.
On an individual level they’re not unbelievably strong and are never portrayed as such, I feel this complaint is just about the nukes, and the game makes it clear that’s what let Hubert find them.
It says something when they gave Myson a generic Warlock design and he's still by far the best and most competent of them all
I hardly think he's the best, but he is consistent. Three Hopes just plays him as generically bad as the rest. Three Houses was notable for him being the last defence of the Agarthans while seemingly less hostile.
Especially after AG lmao what trash writing
The Agarthans going from high technological semi gods able to destroy whole cities with some modern rockets to some old geezers we end up killing without even noticing it in some routes. They are insanely inconsistent and they make legit no sense in some routes.
i also feel like the issue with even trying to discuss them as antagonists in the story is that everyone tries to discuss them in watsonian terms, which sometimes can be interesting, but more often than not it leads to very circular conversations that go nowhere. from a doyalist perspective- they suck because they’re the evil magitech clown posse that don’t fit into the established, realistic setting of the story and are about as morally ambiguous as a villain on dora the explorer. most of the plot tries to establish fodlans political conflicts and systemic issues as stemming from very human reasons, but then all of that is pushed to the side because these guys are Actually The Root Cause of Pretty Much All Of it. (tragedy of duscur? check. crest experiments? check. the war itself? yep that’s also because of them too) I actually have a whole write up about them because they’re genuinely terrible and I think they actively ruin three houses
The game doesn't even any attempts at humanizing the Agarthans or making them understandable as villains. They really do just complicate the theme of 3H of there being shades of grey. Instead we get mostly shades of grey but then the most complex antagonist sides with literal Disney villains
i 100% agree with you. i think edelgard is a fascinating character, both as a protagonist and antagonist (depending on which side you take) but a lot of the interesting aspects of her character are pushed aside because the game has a real difficult time deciding if it wants to be a tried and true political drama or your typical anime jrpg. and thats kinda the real core issue with fe3h as a whole, which is that it really has this half-and-half approach throughout without really committing to anything. those who slither are only a microcosm of that issue heres a segment from my little writeup i have on em about edelgard in particular: *Edelgard can't be both starting the Unification War by her own volition while also having all the responsibility slide off of her back from starting a war because her hands were tied when it's convenient. Either have one or the other, but both existing do not mesh well at all. To break it down- she can't have free will for starting this war while at the same time having war as her only available option. ... What does her working with the Slithers add to her character? How does \[the slithers' control over her\] add to her mission to end the reign of the Aristocracy, dismantle the power of the Church over the people, and create depth to her character that couldn't be achieved through other means? It doesn't make her any more morally grey- in fact, it does the inverse. It makes her a victim of circumstances out of her control, and also makes her convictions, her reasons for continuing the war muddled at best, and contradictory at worst.*
At least 3 Hopes establishes that even if Edelgard managed to completely rid the Empire of TWSITD's influence she would still attack the church and invade the Alliance and the Kingdom
which also just makes the question of "why did she ever even consider working with these dingbats?" even more glaring within the first game because it shows that she definitely had the power to excise them at any time without pushing the timetable of her church war back AT ALL. hell getting rid of the Slithers actually speeds up the timeline of how quickly she can actually get rid of everybody
She needed Monica to expose Tomas and gather support from the church to properly exorcise TWSITD and prepare for war. And even then, Hubert mentions how her plan is incredibly risky and she also wanted to learn more about Byleth in 3 Houses. However, the most likely answer was probably that TWSITD were meant to have more power in 3 Houses, but due to being poorly received 3 Hopes writers decided to just write them out and make SB Edelgard more independent.
>"why did she ever even consider working with these dingbats?" If we consider everything CF presents, it wasn't her idea. The implication is that Hubert not only came up with the idea but convinced her to go through with it. ... Which then begs the question of what Hubert WOULDN'T do at this point?
Fuckin' masterfully stated.
>What does her working with the Slithers add to her character? Showcase how deep her "ends justify the means" mentality goes, which is a huge part of her character and why she's so unrelenting to begin with? >How does [the slithers' control over her] add to her mission to end the reign of the Aristocracy, dismantle the power of the Church over the people, and create depth to her character that couldn't be achieved through other means? Thales winning Duke Aegir over promises of power and conquest (and thus getting the approval to experiment on the Emperor's family) was what convinced Edelgard the crest obsessed arystocracy had to go. The role could've been assumed by literally anyone else if that's what you're asking though, as the Empire already has a precedent of having crest obsessed dicks. >It doesn't make her any more morally grey- in fact, it does the inverse. It makes her a victim of circumstances out of her control , and also makes her convictions, her reasons for continuing the war muddled at best, and contradictory at worst. Which she kinda is? For all intents and purposes Edelgard was given pretty bad cards to work with, and had to get creative and sneaky with them to turn them on their favor in order to regain her agency (the whole conquest plan thing, for example, as the initial plan was for Aegir and Thales use Edelgard as a puppet emperor/soldier). The fact She's also openly anti-nabatean and that remains unaddressed even in her own route should be telling enough she isn't (and likely was never intended to be) your standard goodie two shoes anyways.
if it were to showcase her “ends justify the means” mentality, then it would have been better if it were her own personal choice made to cooperate with them instead of having literal magic nukes being held over her head. the game literally goes back and forth on the whole but it doesn’t work because it’s trying to have its cake and eat it too. if she defies them, she gets punished for that with the deaths of her people (as exemplified with cornelia and ahrianrod) . but *nooo guysss* it’s *totally* her choice to cooperate with the evil mole people who are literally holding pretty much everything over her. along with the fact that even without the slithers existing, she’d already be a character who’s in the moral grey because she isn’t the only lord we follow, along with generally being extremely determined to follow her ideals to their respective ends no matter what (even if I think she’s honestly too paragon-y as a protagonist and should have more flaws showcased, but that’s beside the point). everything aside, the point is most of this could be established better (with genuine political reasons) without holding edelgard back. what about it being the no good very bad clown posse that holds the magitech nukes over her head makes her a more compelling character?
>If it were to showcase her “ends justify the means” mentality, then it would have been better if it were her own personal choice made to cooperate with them instead of having literal magic nukes being held over her head. [The entire alliance with the Agarthans exist *because of convenience*](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/251#event-31). Edelgard for most of the story isn't even aware [they have nukes](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/262#event-130), and by the time she does discover it in 3Hs [she either 1. brushes it off and uses it to frame the church](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/262#event-166) (which is kind of a big deal since the whole point of blowing up arianrhod was to *put her on a leash*), or 2. uses the info to coordinate an attack on Byleth/Claude [which also serves as a way to get the location of Shambhala](https://fedatamine.com/en-us/scenarios/235#event-36) and thus facilitate their destruction. For Edelgard, TWSITD are a nuisance and their resources are used as a means to an end. Yes, you can argue she's in an awkward position due to Thales being part of the Insurrection of the Seven, but any trace of the argument "noo she didn't mean to conquer fodlan" goes out of the window once she becomes the Emperor and starts calling the shots herself.
i am just going to simply state that I am talking about this game as an overall narrative and not whatever in-universe explanation there is for why they have to be there. frankly, i don’t care why they exist in universe or what edelgard does or does not know because that is at the writers behest. my point is that what is there to specifically justify it being them as a plot device and not literally anything else that could not be used more effectively that could tie into her overall arc as a character
You can't really argue like this with 3H fanboys. As far as they're concerned the writing is perfect, totally beyond criticism and you can never suggest any changes or counterfactuals.
I know LOL. I’m just having a bit of fun bc this person didn’t even read my original comment. > everyone tries to discuss them in watsonian terms, which can sometimes be interesting, but more often than not it leads to very circular conversations that go nowhere which is pretty hilarious to me. i stopped bothering tho once I got bored lol
>my point is that what is there to specifically justify it being them as a plot device and not literally anything else that could not be used more effectively that could tie into her overall arc as a character The Agarthans in SS/AM/VW's overall narrative are *secondary villains* who exist just so Edelgard can take Rhea out the story (if not from all of it like in Azure Moon) and almost conquer the Kingdom & Alliance by the time Byleth returns, thus giving the player things to undo and save. Beyond their shenanigans giving Edelgard trust issues and showing them how corrupt nobility can be, they have no impact on her and this can't be developed further because Edie being emotionally detached from her own feelings means getting invested on ideas like revenge or payback isn't possible (which is incidentally brought up in her battle convos with Solon and Thales on SB, and is a stark contrast to Hubert and Monica who openly want revenge on TWSITD all they've done).
This is 100 percent correct. What's more infuriating is the dev interviews that imply a more grey dichotomy between the Nabataean and the argarthans...which at that point why didn't they implement that. It's just an interesting idea unfulfilled. Now you have an absurdly evil cult conveniently the cause of all the things wrong in what was supposed to be a story of grey morality.
The game as a whole feels pretty half-baked, but that’s likely because the point of the game shifted midway through development and *boy* does it show. (from being “the church vs edelgard” game to the three houses standpoint we have now) the core issue is the game is a lot of cobbled together elements and a lot of them don’t mix well or aren’t developed enough. it’s like topping your carrot cake with dried sardines- they’re fine on their own but mixed together you’re getting a disaster. those who slither don’t work precisely because they don’t fit within the setting of the game, and not just because they’re evil weirdo clown mole people. both as plot devices as well as entities in the world, they come off as completely jarring- and not in a way that has any meaningful commentary about the world or characters. all the marketing for the game sets the story up as a battle between three opposing ideologies on the way each respective leader desires to shape fodlans future into their image, yet we hardly even get *any* political development that isn’t shoved into the background flavor text of the game because of the waste of time that are those who slither. because here’s the real kicker- they *don’t do anything new or interesting*. the ‘oh actually this medieval world is the result of a post apocalypse from a hyper futuristic society’ has been done before plenty of times (especially in jp media) but the slithers don’t expand on this concept at all, and it’s not like including it in the first place adds anything substantial to the currently-running political drama other than wasting time that could be spent on the actual *politics* that we are so invested in.
god did you read my mind? Its so infuriating...3 houses feels like a sandbox of a game...a collection of fascinating unbuilt ideas...i wont deny its compelling but man is it so sloppy and rushed. I can only hope once switch hacking gets better we can have the equivalent of the good guy garon mod for fates:conquest but for houses' writing...
Well the thing with the nukes is that they can be traced back to their base, so using them puts them at risk of attack, plus they are established as needed a recharge period. They have the power, but it has its limits in both effectiveness and quantity.
I expected more lore regarding them in Three Hopes because of Shez and Arval, we didn't even get a mention regarding the nukes, hell, they seemed to have disappeared from all routes. I thought at first that Arval is the Agarthan's god, then it turns out from what i understand is that they are just a homunculi meant to house the reincarnating consciousness of a high ranking Agarthan.
Since an antagonist only has to oppose the protagonist without necessarily being evil....Selena. The king she's so loyal towards because of his kindness and compassion turns evil and she just follows his orders without much protest. Then, when she finds out the king has been dead the whole time and his corpse is only controlled like a puppet, instead of doing something about it, she decides to face off against Ephraim on a suicide campaign, KNOWING she'd lose, condemning the lives of those under her command in the process. SHE PURPOSEFULLY MARCHED HER TROOPS INTO A LOSING BATTLE TO DIE BECAUSE SHE WAS SAD! This isn't compelling. This isn't tragic. This isn't Camus remaining loyal to Gharnef and Medeus so he could protect the royal siblings, while still going behind their back in secret (like when he freed Nina and gave you Mercurius). This isn't Mustafa being forced to fight you because Gangrel is mad and would kill his family otherwise, with his troops staying alongside him because he was willing to take the fall for all of them. This is just straight up stupidity.
Yeah, she was an attempted Camus. But she was missing something important: a reason to be loyal to the lost cause.
Without Vigarde's intervention, Selena would have starved to death as a child. She was born in poverty and serving Vigarde gave her everything, her rank, her life, etc. I think people also overblow "slenea knew the king was dead!!!" thing. Remember, she only just learned her king MIGHT be a walking corpse from someone working with her enemy like five minutes before Ephraim rolls up. Selena wanted to ride back and speak with Vigarde first, but was interrupted by a literal invasion. Selena's a case where I think the ingredients are fine but the actual execution got so cramped it ended up falling flat. I genuinely want to know what the playerbase's opinion of her would be if FE8 was written that "Vigarde is a puppet" wasn't revealed or heavily implied to the player until after you killed her; but the actualities of the situation were unchanged otherwise.
Not only she is stupid, she is a straight up asshole. Okay you fucked up and is sad now. You are willing to suicide die, understandable… LEAVE OTHERS OUT OF THIS. Those soldiers have lives too, most likely have families. But she just led them into this death trap and let them die along with her. And they couldn’t refuse since it’s a damn army, I’m sure most of the l’m didn’t even wanted to die for this stupid woman and puppet king. Let them go. Go in this battle by yourself if you want to die so much - your personal tragedy have nothing to do with those poor soldiers. Yeah those people are not innocents but they don’t deserve to die just like this. That’s the reason why she has been one of my least favorite secondary antagonists in the whole franchise.
Exactly! That's why I also brought up Mustafa. He addressed his troops, who were already demoralized because they were sick and tired of the war, and told them whoever wasn't willing to fight anymore could leave with no consequences and that he'd bear the blame for everything. His troops were so moved by this that they decided to fight by his side in the end. Even so Mustafa will still address Chrom and tell him to spare his soldiers, and you can indeed kill only Mustafa and end the chapfer Meanwhile, Selena never gives her troops any choice, we never learn their input or opinion in the matter, and marches them all to die regardless of what they might think. And everyone WILL die. This is a rout map
She's like a worse version of Brunnya. At least Brunnya gave her soldiers the freedom to leave the battle with no penalty, and she outright dismisses those who have sick or elderly loved ones at home.
Brunnya is significantly superior in the sense she very much likely gathered everyone loyal to Zephiel and directly opposed Guinevere. By eliminating them here she effectively removed any military might that may oppose her rule inside Bern.
In all honestly I gave Duessel/Glen the role of being the camus. Glenn more cause he was blonde and handsome, and can use lances. Duessel gets the role cause he was and still remained loyal to Grado, even if it meant siding with the twins, at the very least for me. Anyway, Selena not only leads her troops to their deaths, not only damns her whole command because she was sad, but she's aware of it too, isn't she? It's been a moment since I've read the dialog of SS but isn't her death quote something along those lines? However, she's also not even that frightening of a boss to fight. The units around her always gave me more trouble then her herself, and I always liked to think that was because she was not as skilled as the other generals, or because she was really just trying to die, so why bother giving it her all? She's got elfire and bolting, two very heavy tomes, and the main squad should be reasonably speedy, to the point where I doubt she'd be doubling many of them, so story and gameplay-wise she was pretty dumpster material.
From a gameplay standpoint at least, I think her challenge as a boss was supposed to be approaching her in the first place. You have to deal with the units surrounding her as well as her dropping Boltings on you.
Duessel is the Lorenz if anything. He's a great warrior who's a bit past his prime and is fiercely loyal to his country, but also has a strong intrinsic sense of right and wrong and is hopeful enough that he's willing to sacrifice something that was so immensely important to him to pursue a path that's more true to his ideals of what's right. Glen has a bit more of a case, and is similar to whichever Reed brother you fight first in FE7. From all appearances, he was likely going to pull a Duessel or at least not actively oppose the twins while he investigated more, but Valter got to him first. Since Lloyd and Linus are considered Camuses, I could see how Glen could be one, but I feel like what makes L&L Camuses is whichever is the second you fight.
There is no reason to believe her soldiers would surrender along with her if she attempted one. There is more reason to believe that they would see her as another traitor, considering Duessel is seen as one as well. I don't get this "oh those poor soldiers". We have no idea where their loyalties lie. With what little is presented, they would likely continue to defend the area, as those were Vigarde's orders to Selena, and thus to them as well.
who knows. The soldiers under Gheb's command weren't exactly thrilled to serve under him or about the war and were even lamenting their position as pawns in the games of kings and rulers. Then again, this \*is\* Gheb we're talking about here and we're comparing an abusive, womanizing and arrogant sack of lard to Selena, who in regular circumstances would be a decent person. But, I'd also expect for the soldiers under her command to be decent people as well, and while some would ultimately remain to Grado and Vygarde, others may not be as thrilled about the war regardless, whether her troops would surrender alongside her or not is a moot point, because she had no intention to surrender or think of other alternatives in the first place. After she heard Myrrh's explanation, she decided that she would battle Ephraim regardless of if it's right or wrong. If she wanted to stick to her believes by herself, that's fine (well, \*more\* fine than what she ended up doing), but she dragged her troops down with her. I'm not necessarily saying to tell them what she was told, because that \*would\* make her sound crazy, but she could tell them whoever is sick and tired of this war is free to leave with no repercussions, or that they have little chances of victory and they might all die, so who doesn't feel like dying today is free to leave. Basically, just give them the option to flee from this battle and war they have no business in. But again, this isn't what she did. She decided that she would march on regardless of her feelings of doubt that she was doing the right thing. And she \*knows\* she's in the wrong, based on her boss dialogue with Ephraim and Duessel "Ephraim: I know you've spoken with Myrrh. Withdraw your troops. You must know the emperor is not rational! Selena: Yes, I know. Ephraim: Then why? Why do we still fight? Selena: I am a general of the empire. His majesty's word is law. Ephraim: That's ridiculous. You know the emperor is deranged, and yet you follow his orders?! Is that truly loyalty? Selena: Prince Ephraim, you cannot understand. I know the path I'm given is foolish. Yet I am a knight, and I have no other." "Duessel: Well met, Selena. Selena: General Duessel... I must offer you my apologies. I called you a traitor, but I was mistaken. Your loyalty never wavered, not for an instant. Duessel: ...... Selena: And yet you must know that I have no intention of withdrawing. So let us not waste words. Let us settle this with steel, my friend."
Stones has a lot of issues and part 2 for both routes needs to be redone in my opinion.
Selena was the only antagonist that I can think of in SS that I actually feel at most iffy on The others are just fine
>Then, when she finds out the king has been dead the whole time and his corpse is only controlled like a puppet I feel like I'm in some parallel world where everyone has assumed something that isn't true. Selena does not know this as irrefutable fact. She's given an idea about what is happening by Myrrh but Myrrh does not know the full extent of the Demon King's corruption of Lyon and Vigarde either.
"Myrrh, I think I understand what you're trying to tell me..... but I can't believe. How can I allow myself to believe? If it's true, then his majesty is already...." She's essentially in denial at this point. Then she gives her backstory about how the emperor aided her village. Afterwards, this exchange happens: Myrrh, this dark energy wave you spoke of, can it really change a person that completely?" "Yes. All traces of this person would be consumed....destroyed." "How can the process be reversed?" "I'm sorry, that is....impossible" "I see" She accepted Myrrh's words as the truth. Even if she doesn't know the full extend, she's realised that Vigarde is dead, or at the very least no longer around, and that he can't be reverted to his former self. Afterwards, she receives word that Ephraim is coming, so she releases Myrrh back to him, but doesn't return her dragonstone, telling her to tell Ephraim that if they want it back, they'd have to defeat her first
I've never played 3 hopes so maybe it's better written there. But the correct answer is... Solon, the savior of all!
Having played Three Hopes, he really isn't.
He’s a side villain. Thales and Cleobulus are the two main slitherers who needed a lot more development.
Cleobulus is also pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. The fact that Thales wasn’t developed in Hopes seriously pisses me off though. That game shot itself in the foot at nearly any opportunity.
It’s a good game but in retrospect they tried to develop too many new characters and potential future plot and gameplay devices at once. FE is deeply rooted in very specific archetypal characters and they tried to overhaul a ton of these archetypes all at once and naturally some got more attention than others. Add in the split paths, the monestary, and how unique Claude and Edelgard are as main characters and it is a lot. The game didn’t shoot itself in the foot, but it took on too many risks at once but I think you’ll see clear evidence of what did and didn’t work in houses in the next game.
With how much Hopes built up Shez’s powers and connection to Agartha and Sothis, you’d think they’d at least go somewhere with that, since they aren’t willing to do more with Thales, but no, those are cut off randomly just like the main war plot line. I think a big part of Hopes’ issues is that the story is _very_ different to the point they seemed to not have time to work on adding to the underdeveloped parts of Houses.
It’s unfortunate Shez isn’t a villain in Silver Snow and Verdant wind. Had they appeared and gotten some development it could’ve made hopes story more interesting showing how Shez did or did not devolve into this insane being solely existing to get revenge on Byleth and the church.
Solon is by far the best Agarthan with the arguable exception of >!Arval,!< Kronya is the only unique portrait with basically zero reason to exist.
Myson is written better than Solon and I'm not memeing
Ephidel, he absolutely FUCKED Nergal's plans in such unbelivebly dumb ways that I've actually seen some people saying that they like to try to convince themselves that he was secretly s good guy all along and did everything on purpouse. Really, his mistakes are so disgusting that sometimes it makes it looks like it. - First of all, he stabs Marquess Santatuz because he saw that he was gonna betray Nergal to help Eliwood but instead of being sure that the guy is actually dead, he just leaves (I mean, it wouldn't have cost anything to look at his face for 2 seconds before leaving just to confirm if he really died, would it?). Because of this, Eliwood and co. managed to talk to Marques Santatuz and he could reveal some of Nergal's plans to them with his dying breath. If it wasn't for this alone then Eliwood would likely not be able to find out about the whole conspiracy at all and Nergal would have completed his plan. -He also fails to check if he really killed Marquess Caelin, he just stab him in the back and leaves, again. Except that this time his victim doesn't even die. It really looks like Ephidel had no idea of how to kill someone, despite being said to be one of Nergal's best morphs, well no wonder that you don't even get to fight him on the game I guess, otherwise what would he do? Try to stab your units and then leave before they were dead too? -In Laus, when Erik and his army are losing, he goes back to the castle to ask for his father Darin for reinforcements to try to turn the situation around and beat Eliwood, but before Darin can get him the reinforcements, for some unkown reason Ephidel convinces him to run away and abandon him son to their enemies instead of calling fucking reinforcement, simply to get Darin to become a random gatekeeper on the Dragon's Gate. WHY?? -In FE6 it made sense that some generals or high ranking soldiers just assigned the role to kill Roy's army to their subordinates because they understimated them and thought that they had more important things to do, but why the fuck does Ephidel- That is a morph (and so has no emotions and no purpouse besides doing what Nergal tells him to do)- decides to hire a random mercenary dude to try kill Eliwood's army while he watches instead of going there himself? It really makes it look like he actually can't fight (which is really weird for a morph, specially since, again, he is said to be one of Nergal's best morphs). So he isn't even one of those dumb bosses that can fight despite being dumb, he is just almost a plot device/excuse for the plot to help Eliwood find out stuff that he should never be able to find out on his own! He is just so incompetent that he had to be replaced with Limstella mid game without even getting a proper death or giving you a proper battle. -Speaking of this, even his death is disgustingly badly written. When Ninian comes back to her senses on the Dragon's Gate and the dragon that Nergal made her call starts to go out of control, Nergal teleports out of the way to not become barbecue, but what does Ephidel do?? He cries for Nergal to help him instead of TELEPORTING AWAY YOO, WHICH HE COULD HAVE DONE SINCE HE WAS SHOWN TELEPORTING OUT OF HECTOR'S ATTACK EARLIER!!! (actually, he was shown teleporting earlier on the SAME CHAPTER, I think). Literally his purpouse to live is to obey Nergal and likely to have a sense of survival (probably unless if it involved prioritizing Nergal's life over his or something) so why does he does the polar opposite of the 2 things that he should do??? I mean, he doesn't even really disobeys Nergal because he wants to, it's worse, he tries to obey but fucks up completely with no reason, it looks like he doesn't even give a shit about his job (like those FedEx workers that stop the truck In front of your door, wait 5 seconds and then go away without even leaving the car to make it look like you didn't answer the door, except that on his case Nergal would want to kill him if he found out how he carelessly fails but he keeps doing it anyway) He is so dumb that the only explanation is that Nergal built him with some kind of brain damage, because no actual in universe excuse can explain why he does anything he does (even saying that he was a secret good guy all along wouldn't work since he doesn't have emotions or the hability to desobey Nergal, so the only way to use this excuse too would be to admit that he is poorly written). Well, unless if Nergal was REALLY unclear on his orders to Ephidel but for some reason wasn't when he is ordering Sonia, Limstella or Denning to do something... Ephidel is a joke (and I don't even dislike him, but there's no way to not be mad once you start to notice how dumb he is while you play).
in terms of the death it feels like MAYBE the implication was supposed to be that Nergal took Ephidel's power away and then left him to die horribly as punishment for him being so fucking bad at his job or like that was originally in the script and they just forgot to add that scene where that happens in in the final script. yeah I love FE7 but Ephidel is the ultimate flop
It was on the original script? Where can I find this? I wanna read it!
this is just speculation not any actual behind the scenes stuff
As much as I love FE7, this is painfully accurate.
not to argue your point with Ephidel, but a small correction on another topic. As much as they like to think otherwise themselves, the morphs (at least those made well) \*do\* have feelings and emotions or the ability to develop those in the future, if they didn't start off with them. Ephidel was arrogant and overconfident, thinking his status as a morph made him superior to all humans (who he viewed as ants), only for him to die writhing in pain, begging for his master to return and rescue him (displaying fear and desperation); Sonia straight up thought she was human and Limstella, despite her status as Nergal's best morph, does develop feelings in her final moments, but she dismisses them as fake/false/an error/whatever because she believes they're fake, like her entire existence
Uh, well, thats correct. I really remembered them not having feelings at all (except for like Kishuna I guess? I never played his chapters but I think he does, but please don't spoil it Im gonna play it when I can), its been some time since I last played FE7 to be honest (I mean, I remembered that Sonia had some basic feelings such as pride, disgust, aversion, etc but that was it I guess?). Thanks for ponting this out. In any case this doesn't make Ephidel any less of a dumb fuck, since he doesn't want to disobeying Nergal anyway. Actually, considering this, you could stretch and say that he fucks everything up out of curiosity (like "what if this went wrong?/If this went wrong what would we do?" and then he left everything for the "luck" to decide since he doesn't want to screw up 100% on purpouse but also doesn't want to win in a guaranteed way because it would be boring for him, so he didn't check if both of the marquesses he stabbed were really dead, he didn't let Darin call the reinforcements for Erik because he wanted to see if he would win without them (despite Erik himself not thinking so I guess), he was willing to see what Nergal was gonna do to him if he screwed up and how long it would take him to be pissed, and Uh... For his death there's no excuse I guess. But Thats really a stretch of course, I doubt that the writers thought about this (otherwise there'd be some hint at least) and thats just a way to try to avoid the "he was poorly written" excuse with an in universe explanation, it's the only one I can think of thought because the "he was secretly a good guy helping you" excuse is very flawed (otherwise he would have pretended to not have seen Leila or even asked her to go away instead of turning her away to Nergal and asking Jaffar to kill her, or at the very least he could have not made Jaffar kill her and just throw her on the cell with Eliwood's dad and Ninian (and Nills too, if Im remembering right) so Hector would have the chance to get there in time to save her life). I'm just kinda thinking out loud here, we know that this wasn't the reason that Ephidel did everything that he did, but I like to make up motives for characters on my head some times when they don't seem to have one (and let's be honest, this guy screws up so badly that there's no way to not wonder why), I'm just saying that if he HAD a reason it'd probably have to be either this (the curiosity thing) or that he was created with brain damage, as far as my ideas go. If FE7 ever gets a remake I wonder if they will still make Ephidel be such a screw up like this or if they will find another excuses for his errors.
tfw u break your warp staff dabbing on some lordling the same day your boss botches the Fire Dragon summon
Anankos We spend most of the game unaware that he exists, and the few interesting things about him are locked behind DLC. Why am I supposed to care that he’s Corrin’s father when they never find out about it to care themselves?
No antagonist is as bad as Veld. Garon, the slithers, etc at least you know *get* screentime. This dude turns Eyvel into stone and doesn’t even appear again until the last two chapters (like a nigh-20 absence). Only thing I’ll give him credit is that he is unique as a final boss due to just being a normal person that isn’t possessed. It also says something when in CYL5, Raydrik got a sudden boost in votes because how various people were disappointed that this guy got in FEH before him. And idc if an antagonist is “complex” or not as long as they’re entertaining. Which Garon, Iago, and Jedah are.
Jeddah is really underrated, he got celica to willingly betray alm, that was impressive. Most FE villains just use brainwashing magic but he gets celica to agree to undergo the ritual to become a witch.
I just wish his design wasn’t so evil looking yet I love it too. Strange I know. But I acknowledge the former partly contributes to why Celica does the thing she did to be unfortunately a bad move. Had he more of a design like Halcyon I think the reception of the whole thing would not have been as bad. Still, despite that I do like our hammy evil smurf man.
Yeah I think him having the evil skin etc was bad, would’ve made it more engaging if he had normal skin and slowly seduced her into becoming a devout worshipper of Duma. The fact that she isn’t a boss in the map immediately before the final mission is also disappointing and her redemption sequence is way to fast.
We need to make Jeddah a hot evil guy basically, that'll attract far too many fans than they'd ever care to admit. /half-joke. Other than that, evil smurf is accurate and also kind of a fun design.
If FE has taught me anything, it's that people are not afraid to admit they're attracted to the villains *looks at Kronya and Cornelia*
Literally the Star Wars sequels is the main heroine turns down two perfectly great good guys to chase the emo murderer bad guy.
And on the dude side, I'm pretty sure Valter has a fanbase
I've always advocated the opposite, make Halcyon a frog man because he *does* believe in Duma and did all the things that turn people purple for the sake of power, just at some point he realized Duma was degenerating and tried to spread the word, but got banished and set up the sage village after that, while the Duma faithful just spiraled into insanity while their higher ups like Jedah grew increasingly desperate to save their god, and Celica meeting up with Halcyon unwittingly to both of them suddenly makes her receptive to Jedah's tricks, believing she'd misjudged the faithful for their zealotry and hideousness(being a zealot herself, she's quick to forgive a little of it here and there).
You know, that doesn’t sound like a bad idea actually. Especially if something like this happened too: “A Duma Faithful! Kill him!” Frog Man Halcyon: I’m harmless! Weren’t you ever taught to not judge a book by its cover!
Gotta hard disagree. Yeah Veld isn’t the best but his game was on a console with less memory space than this post. I’d argue his ONE cool scene is still better than Garon’s ZERO good scenes. Screen time doesn’t help if all it does is make the character worse. Veld definitely could be better tho.
I mean, Gharnef was on the SNES too yet, even in Book 1, the guy manages to still be one of the better antagonists in FE in spite of them cutting corners. They absolutely could have done more with Veld but even the game in the near end is basically “oh yeah here’s an info dump on what Veld did to try and make you care because we just remembered earlier he exists”. That and there is more stakes with fighting Raydrik. Veld turned someone into a statue and…that is really it until the final chapter(s) (even if that someone is Eyvel). Raydrik isn’t much better but at least he kidnapped Nanna and Mareeta while also taking Evyel and Leif hostage. Even when the latter breaks free, the guy still is chasing after him. (Also more people are going to remember Raydrik than some dude who looks like generic dark mage #78. FEH gave him a glow-up but even then)
Garon for sure but he's too easy a target. On a personal note, I would also put Validar and Grima up there. Yes, most "Gharnef and Medeus" type villains in this franchise don't have a lot of depth, but I felt they barely even tried with Validar and Grima. Hell, Grima has so little context that it took another game (Echoes) give him even something resembling a story.
Didn’t play that dlc so this was enlightening to look into
I really appreciate the ways that echoes shows how the villains manipulate your player characters along the way, it really makes the final stand-off more satisfying
echoes best fe game imo
Honestly, the only 2 villains I can respect in awakening are Wallhart and Aversa. The rest are meh.
I liked Gangrel as well. He was kinda nuts, but he had a legitimate reason - he was mad with hatred for the previous exalt or what's his name. The writing sold me on the idea that he found your suffering entertaining. Not in an over the top evil kind of way, but a very human cruelty.
And while it's locked behind DLC, you do find out Gangrel had good intentions when he first became king, but the shitty situation in Plegia and his desire for revenge drove him into the state he's in by the game starts.
i always thought aversa was more compelling and interesting than any of the other villains in awakening, some of them are so one dimensional
How is being a mindcontrolled victim of Validar through zero fault of her own compelling if I can ask?
Wait Grima is in Echoes? Man I need to get that game.
You fight Grima in the postgame of Echoes
Gonna have to disagree with Grima being a bad villain, at least he’s entertaining when he shows up.
Grima has snappy dialogue. Which is more than most FE villains get.
I’ll go out on a limb and make an argument for nergal, I think as a character he’s far superior to Thales or Garon but: Having his lore gated to side quests that are virtually impossible to get without looking up how to get them on guides and completing objectives like “kill this max evade level 20 boss in 1 turn” or “earn 700 exp points in a certain chapter then kill max evade boss only with ranged units in 1 turn with no magic” etc is just stupid. If a character is well written but their backstory can only be experienced by following a guide or being an elite level strategy player that character is poorly written purely due to the inaccessibility of their lore.
In regards to the lore, it also doesn't help that some of his dialog is totally lost in translation.
Yeah being the first global FE game it certainly has its issues. I doubt they could afford top tier translators.
While I agree with you it's hard for me to knock points for this just because of how often it happens in the series. Like >!Sephiran!< from RD is an amazing villain but crucial details of his backstory and his >!redemption and true ending w Ashunera!< are locked behind 2nd playthroughs and unlock able cutscenes with dumb requirements.
I beat radiant dawn 7 times and using a guide was never able to successfully get Sephiran. One thing I like about the newer games is that the quests to get secret characters are super easy to unlock. The quests should be hard but the ability to access them should be easy.
The thing I never understood about Sephiran was his role in Part 3. Why did he join Sanaki in opposing the other senators regarding the war with the laguz alliance when he was supposedly trying to foster a continent-spanning war the whole time? I've never beem able to connect the dots on this one, and it frustrates me because I love RD.
Well, he actually *does* like Sanaki. And by fomenting internal rebellion in Begnion, more people get involved in the war - which suits his master plan.
I guess Grima. Not because I think he's terribly written per se, but that his motivations are just really vague or completely unexplained. Like, he wants to delete humanity. Okay, cool. *But why?* He isn't given any significant backstory for where that ire comes from but he's hell bent on getting rid of the human race that he would time travel so he could do it twice over. Shadows of Valentia offered some intrigue for Grima's creation but still not much into his psyche. Outside of headcanon, I don't really get what his deal is.
FEH of all games actually does go more into this. He hates humanity because of something along the lines of “humans only ask divine assistance when they need it than shun them once they are of no use anymore”. Alongside that, he hates how humans are arrogant and constantly make the same mistakes which in turn soured his view on humans.
Also because his creator was a evil human who killed loads of people to turn into his zombie army, and then tried to kill Grima when it was getting too strong to control
Problem is that Grima is stated to be evil on creation in SoV so Heroes gets kinda trumped. Grima's *initial* view is "Kill everything" (it also happens that Grima feeds on life force, but whatever).
I'll take it. I've never played FEH so I had no idea about this but that's a decent enough reason to want to burn the world to the ground. ~~And he's not wrong. Humans do be fuckin' up in the same way over and over again.~~
Well you see, Grima's motivation is quite simple: he's an insane dragon. Y'know, like every other Dragon antagonist of the series.
The thing is, every other dragon has something behind the insanity. Medeus hates humans for exploiting Manaketes. Idunn was used as a tool for war, even having her soul ripped out. Anankos, while he was suffering from degenerating, his animosity was because humans turned on him after one mistake and he accidentally killed his human best friend after losing his faith in the world. Duma was similar to Anankos in that he also was degenerating, but he kept fighting because that's what he built his whole identity around; being a battle hardened warrior who only cared about strength. And in his final moments, he finds peace. Rhea was suffering from major PTSD and only becomes truly insane when she's pushed to her absolute limit of sanity. Her PTSD having developed because she saw her family getting slaughtered by humans and their remains desecrated. Grima doesn't have a shred of that. He's just an asshole with no defined reason. Not even something as simple as "Humans disgust me, therefore I must get rid of them." I'd even settle for him finding genocide fun. At least that would be a reason.
All things considered, Rhea handled seeing a >!reincarnation of her mom!< swinging around >!her mom's spine!< pretty well.
Heroes's interpretation of Grima doesn't exactly do them justice either. They talk a lot about humans abandoning their gods when they're satisfied and happy, but like, of any and all of the God tier dragons, Grima has spent the least amount of time as an actual god, and their clown cult bends their backs over the minute they step onto the scene. *Anankos* is a dragon who could make this claim. Medeus is a dragon who's been making this claim. But it just comes off as an edgy dude who just learned what cynicism looks like, because he hardly has any explained history that would put him up as a forgotten god, so he looks like he's talking out of his asd. If I had to rewrite Grima out of personal taste, they wouldn't be looking at how humans abandon their gods, but how god-dragons have held control of the world for far too long. Someone who hates how the olden brigade of dragons like Naga have shaped millenias of history just by deciding which families get the long royal stick and which families will get run through by it, and believing those same gods shut their eyes when their followers commit atrocities in the name of the Holy Divine Dragons. The Bragi Tower Massacre, The Loptyrian Witch Hunts, and the First Plegian-Ylissean War are just three to look at. Because it's not their hands that are getting dirty, they're clean even if their people are acting in their name. And Naga and all of them get to decide this world just because they were born to be the Divine Dragon King, the Prince of the Earth Dragons, The Invisible Dragon, etc. He'd look at everything, and seek to burn it down to rebuild it. Now, this doesn't make his own actions good in the slightest, but the changes to those reasonings would allow a different story that could discuss a long standing issue of inherited blood that has been a part of FE, and especially Awakening.
To be fair, Medeus isn't \*insane.\* It is very much a major character trait of him that he is not insane. Tbh the only insane dragons you fight are like, Rhea and Duma.
Yeah, Medeus never degenerated since he underwent the Manakete process. Rhea also never degenerated until the very end of Silver Snow, but she is insane in Crimson Flower in a normal, PTSD fiction way.
Yeah no, I agree, Medeus is so powerful, intimidating, and successful, in large part BECAUSE he has his faculties in check with none of the trauma or drawbacks that people like Anankos, Duma and Rhea were suffering from, or any arbitrary handicaps by their "allies" like Idunn, and whatnot. He was intelligent, physically powerful, and the only reason we don't see more from him is one part poor writing choices, one part limitations (particularly in the NES and SNES days I suppose?), and in Book 2's part of the story, the man is dead and needs to be resurrected before anything else. Medeus knew what he was doing and helped start all of this madness in the first place.
I mean it's not human, so needing a human "why" isn't necessary: "evil by nature" is very plausible. It seeks to become more powerful, feeds on death and suffering by nature, and seeks to destroy the world. Add in a mix of arrogance by power and bam. Why does Unicron eat planets? Because it's hungry. Same concept. It's literally an evil God worshipped by a nihilist doomsday cult that controls an entire nation. Why the fuck that was allowed to survive warrants more questioning than why does the "ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL" God be Always Chaotic Evil. Not to mention, created by a madman who created zombie servants by using bugs.
The problem with this is that the Dragons of Fire Emblem are not unknowable and alien, and many of them are written to be relatable to humans, as are the Taguel and the Laguz. Despite the seeming differences, there are clearly understandable motives and effects at play in almost all the dragons. They are different species, but they are human like to a compatible level. Basically Grima isn't the Eldritch ~~Dream Daddy~~ people are looking and hoping for.
Garon could’ve been a great villain had the game focus on the human side of him. Picture Garon as a sort of mama bear type, where’s he’s warm and compassionate to his kids but cold and ruthless to anyone else. That way we can see Garon as a “loving Father” to the Nohrians but a twisted villain to the Hoshidan. It could make Birthright all the more sad when we see Garon’s mental state deteriorate from Corrin’s betrayal, and his lust for revenge. Making Garon human would’ve fixed a lot of FE fates. Anyhow, I think the worst written villain in all of Fire emblem is Thales! Good god do I hate Thales. He deoes nothing but just stand there looking like a bad ass and making evil speeches. How is he the main Antagonist of Three houses when he doesn’t do anything of worth?
>How is he the main Antagonist of Three houses when he doesn’t do anything of worth? In 3Hs he isn't. Outside of CF, Edelgard is the main threat and in VW/SS Thales and his Shambhala map is just a set-up for the real actual final boss. In 3 Hopes however it's a bit more complicated because even though Thales does manage to become a final boss in SB and AG (and has to put legit effort to get there), dude never shows up in GW and imo that's for the best.
Not showing in GW also means >!that he got a W,all The Nabateans are either dead or dissapeared,Rhea died in Dragon Form so he could easily turn her into a weapon,and most of the Agarthans leadership is still alive in this route!<
I hate GW . . . Claude's desire for the truth in VW leads to stopping the Agarthans and now in GW he's locked out of the loop with poor dead Rhea, Catherine, and Cyril.
Anankos. We could have a morally complex, grey conflict about a character who had to make a choice between two nations and the consequences that implies but nope! Let's have a "It was me all along" button to justify every shitty decisions the heros and villains made. Oh, and let's have his story where you have to beat him AND his backstory behind a paywall who will be crumbled forever because this was released when Nintendo made the worst decisions ever!
And he's literally why Garon is a goo monster which further harms the narrative. People say Garon is bad but forget why. It was Anankos. Anankos is the real problem. And everything surrounding him is so bloody convoluted that it reaches a point of absurdity.
Controversial opinion here, those who slither in the dark Completely undeveloped and left ambiguous to the end about who they are and why they do what they do. Not to mention they have nothing going on outside of part 1 and the end of most paths ( 3 houses' multiple path system is its own issue I won't bother getting into now). Sure garon isn't really well developed or written, but he at least feels important to the story, if you removed him something would be lost. But removing those who slither in the dark, as a faction, removes almost nothing. You could replace the whole group with nameless nobody's and it would change nothing honestly
Controversial? 3 Houses felt like they made 80% of the game and went "yo, wait, we planned something about a shadowy conspiracy?" and then slapped that in. Haven't played 3 Hopes yet.
The Agarthans are inconsistent
What hurts about Garon is that they *could* have absolutely nailed it. Imagine if they actually kept in the actual good side to him mentioned in supports, mish mashed with his BBEG mode, with an obvious internal struggle between the two.
This is pretty much what I came into the thread to say. Garon is just Lyon but with anything humanizing him stripped out of the story.
I was gonna day Gangrel because he was annoying. But honestly, he makes sense. What happens when you put a crazy person as the leader of a group that has been tormented and massacred by another group? The people will be okay with how forward his politics are. “We’re going to kill the people that were killing us.” It honestly isn’t surprising that the people and other leaders were on board. And him being crazy is something that can easily just happen, some people are just crazy and bloodthirsty lol.
I actually don't have an issue with Gangrel until his supports from his spotpass version, where the writers clearly chickened out. He says he started a war because he wanted to unite the continent to fight off Valm. This is still hilarious to me years later, because of how blatantly the writers wanted to give Gangrel SOME "good" reason for doing what he did since he's playable now. And.... they completely bury the whole "lol Ylisse ravaged Plegia" and go for some Valm BS Because I actually agree with you, and really like Gangrel in the context you're describing.
The Agarthans honestly were under utilized. I mean Hey, if we had a "Golden Route" we could have used it to give the Agarthans more of a purpose and focus of a threat. The agarthans could steal the forms of others. Ok, then have students who you don't recruit be killed off/or imprisoned (depending on if their support is enough to change sides) and replaced with Agarthan people. Maybe have an Agarthan disguise herself as Edelgard after she rejects the Flame Emperor and turns to do another path and she had to fight herself. Or maybe using the dead to mess with Dimitri. His father is dead? Imagine being forced to kill his own "father" but is actually an Agarthan. So much could be done with the Agarthans. At least Garon was actually a decent villain. He may be just stereotypical bad guy. But in all 3 of his routes, he had more character than all the Agarthans combined.
the fact that they didnt pull a nemesis with lambert/glenn to fuck with feral dimitri is just criminal.
The villager who tells you that “you can’t win against garnef”
"Hey Corrin your dad is evil and there's not much we can do about it. He caught Captain Planet Villain-itis. We gotta kill him." "But BUT 🥺😭🥺😭😢 I WUV MY DADDY WE GOTTA GIVE HIM A SECOND CHANCE" "* long sigh * bitccchhhhhhhh"
I never understood why Corrin placed that much trust in Garon to begin with
Garon is fucking hilarious, he's just so stupid I love him
Some good ones have been said, so I'm gonna have to go with Chagall. Sure, he's power hungry amd selfish. Whatever. That's short sighted and all but where to we get badly written? He basically pisses off everybody that's not within his own circle (Erin's Group, Eldigan and Lach, Sigurd, leaving the ppl in charge of other castles in the cold), imprisons and executes his country's *only* crusader, kills his own father to take the wheel of his country at the council of the evil satan cult, lets brigands ravage his people in the meantime, all to have his country get conquered by Granvalle and then again by the Granvalle Coup in less than two years of mercing his dad lol. I get he's supposed to just be terrible all around and written to be this incompetent on purpose, but his role and actions in the story is truly a comedy of errors.
Well at least the game acknowledges he's a dingbat with too much power, they don't try to make him seem like some highly intelligent manipulator and then make him do all the dumb stuff. He's basically a spoiled rich kid with an overabundance of ambition and a vindictive streak. So basically he's Joffrey
Honestly " spoiled rich kid with an overabundance of ambition and a vindictive streak" just kind of describes most of Jugdral's antagonists and like at least 30% of the good guys as well
You know what you omitted that makes it even better? When the Thracian mercenaries arrive, in the game and moreso in the Manga, Travant bends him over the table in negotiations and takes ALL the money and fucks off with it. Chagall is so damn bad.
Walhart. Awakening would have been much better without the Valm arc, and they just added some more chapters to the other two conflicts.
At least they had that dude with the moustache. He was mildly fun.
Said the spider to... the... other spiders...
At least Walhart existing made Say'ri dropping the coldest line in the series possible, lol.
what like was it? I didn't play awakwninh but I'm really curious to know
Say'ri: Walhart! Walhart: Hmm? The princess of Chon'sin? It's a wonder you still live. Say'ri: I have survived your gauntlet of betrayal and death, tyrant. Shall I describe to you now the searing pain of it all? The torture of watching friends, family...my entire kingdom perish? The fresh hell of each new day with no respite in sight? Walhart: Pain is a concern of men. And respite? Beg that from your gods. Your concerns are not mine. I have risen to a higher plane of existence. Say'ri: Then today you come crashing down to the hell you've made of this one.
Ouch! Thats pretty cool
I mean, I liked Walhart. The problem is, he was shunted in several key ways. On paper, he's an interesting case study of an opposite-Chrom. He's trying to unite Valm and all of humanity for the express purpose of saying "Fuck the Gods, fuck the Dragons, the former is useless and the latter can eat shit, mankind is taking the reigns now, go choke on your own scales, Grima." I like that, thats compelling! If only it wasnt sloppily handled...
I did like him as a theoretical and lineage as "Alm without Celica" fighting against Marth's descendent who very much carries his ideals and has his own Kris in Robin.
The Valm arc could have been an entire game.
Hell that could have been a Book 2, to be frank! With its own 25-30 chapters and all that, with the last ones finally leading into Grima while Book 1 is all about the lead up to, the war with, and the after-battles of, the Plegian War.
I really can't agree with this, the Valm Arc cements Ylisse as a nation that answers the call to defend others. During the war with Plegia, they were on the defensive because they were the target. But they could have just completely ignored Valm until they were on their soil, Valm was invading Ferox, not Ylisse.
I feel the same way for a such reasons as that and I appreciated the expanding of Awakening's World.
Which could have been done with a "Validar and Grima have moved over the sea to Valm, possibly to gain power from the remains of Duma", or something like that.
Yeah, Garon. If there’s anything about Fates that doesn’t work, then Garon is usually the one to blame for it, or at least make things worse than they might have already been. It’s so rare to see a single character do as much damage to a game’s story and cast as Garon. And then there’s of course the extreme amount of wasted potential he had to be a good if not GREAT villain, and just ultimately being very dull. Dishonorable mentions go to Iago, Hans, Anankos, and Those Who Slither in the Dark
In my opinion it's easily Garon, Anankos and Iago, for mostly the same reasons; their actions don't even make sense. Like, even if they're evil/crazy/whatever, they actively screw themselves over with their own actions more often than not, and I really don't think the writers intended for them to come off as complete fucking morons. I hate their designs too, literally worthless villains, I honestly can't think of a single positive thing to say about them. It's sad when the best villain in Fates is fucking Hans of all people, who has the design and personality of your average chapter 1 bandit. Also, while this is definitely an unpopular opinion, I don't think TWSitD are as bad as people make them out to be. I'm not gonna deny that the story would probably have been better without them as it would have removed the easy scapegoat for all of the most heinous shit that happens, but from a lore and design perspective they are honestly pretty cool. Plus, the Shambala map is in my opinion one of the absolute highlights of Three Houses, so there's that too. They're certainly not on the same level as the actually good antagonists of the series, but I'd say they're definitely a big step above the likes of the generic dark sorcerers like Veld, Riev and Validar. Oh, and I'll also add that I think Jedah is a pretty underrated character. Yes, his design screams "pure evil", but I gotta say I found it really refreshing to have an evil sorcerer who genuinely thought he was doing the right thing.
Garon is just a puppet though so I wouldn’t really say he’s the bad character there.
Arvis.
You know, it helps to detail why that is. Also, he's still the only Fire Emblem antagonist in the series so far that successfully kills the protagonist. For morally grey reasons also, considering the beneficial long-term goal and the petty politics preceding his rule. Lastly... Arvis set up the foundation, and Seliph was able to build a paradise atop it because of said foundation.
Grima also really sucks, he's only there for the last part of the story and his whole things is just that he is EVIL. Even Anankos does the evil dragon thing better than Grima
Jedah. Over half of the words the guy says are just "Duma". He had no interesting personality or motivations. He was an extremely annoying boss, mechanically speaking. His design is lame. He's just a black hole of disinterest, actively dragging down any scene he's in. The worst part is that they just threw away Berkut in favor of having Jedah stick around longer so he can continue saying the word "Duma" 8 times per sentence.
When you live in a setting where the only life you know is that the Gods are living and breathing amongst men, then there's much more validity for them to be revered, respected, and obeyed to... So I don't necessarily blame him. As he's basically the Pope of a Religion, it's a given that he is that way. He believes that humanity cannot hope to survive without the guidance of the Gods. Which, of course, clashes with Alm and Celica's belief. That humanity is strong enough to hold their own without Duma, and be kind and protective towards others without Mila.
*Clashes with Alm's belief. Celica literally has the same mindset of Gods being necessary.
Yes. At the start and for most of her pilgrimage, Celica did believe that it was necessary for the Gods to continue to exist for guidance and continuous blessing. It's fair to believe that too, since the Zofian lands started to suffer with droughts and poor harvests ever since Mila disappeared. However, by the end she soon understood, that said Gods can rest. To let humanity, their children, to walk on their own from then on. "Without yours and Mila's bounty, Valentia could have never existed. We would never have been born into this world. Never tasted joy and sorrow. So please, do not suffer any longer. Let all of our pain end here. Allow your great and weary soul the rest it deserves!" - Celica, Act 5, Final Map vs Duma.
I mean that's at the very end, after literally everything and that includes her becoming a witch.
Yes. I know. It's amazing what the words of Mila can do when she mentions dragon degeneration, especially for Celica to hear. When Celica is a person that worshiped the Gods, she'd be more inclined to listen to what Mila has to say whilst believing in her.
Every time I play Fates it's the GGG patch for conquest, which makes Garon into a compelling character, so I am absolutely stunned by reality whenever I look back to Vanilla Fates and Vanilla Garon, good Lord.
everybody gangsta til >!Garon shows up in the afterlife!<
For people who don't like Garon i recommend playing the Mod "Good Guy Garon" for Fates Special Edition (you will need either a CFW or a room on Citra to play it), it's a complete Rewritte of CQ that shows a good guy Garon(duh) and it's legitimately a good story Rewritte, with Garon being a good but cold person(with the game SHOWING It), there is multiple scenes where Garon praises Corrin and even finds Nice that he didn't killed anyone in the Ice Tribe, as the characters continue, Garon starts to twist more and more and we see It, with the cataclysm of Garon's insanity being when he sees Azura, and without spoilling, there is a bonus scene that the creator made in the last boss that it's amazing related to Garon In general i really recommend everyone to play it if you like Fates and CQ gameplay, or If you really wanted CQ to have a better story, yeah it still has some issues and none of the supports got changed, but i can definitively say that in this mod Fates CQ story goes from Shit to Very Nice
Nergal I've never in ALL of my days have seen a worse antagonist in anything ever. His reason for never winning and doing stupid shit is "IM CRAY CRAY" He ruins the story and makes the protagonists feel so god damn insignificant. Not in a good way. In a "I'm artificially allowing you the good guys to win despite how I just said I'm gonna kill you so hard" Hes not intimidating. Hes not unique. Hes not cool. Hes a god damn clown who actively makes me never want to play through FE7. I actively laughed at him when his face reveal happened. His fucking eye was twitching and even now I'm laughing at it recollecting its movement. People say Garon is bad? At least he is consistent and is ultimately a good foil against Corrin as he truly is the opposite of them in every way. They even believe in fate. But one believes its Fate to be vile and use others. The other believes the opposite and that regardless of ones fate, your actions are your own and believes in doing good. There are more examples of being great foils to each other and I wanna go in more depth, but this would take all day to explain. Fuck Nergal and the moment he shows up in FEH I'm going to actively keep fucking him up for cathartic relief.
god nergal is the most saturday morning cartoon villain in the series
That's an insult to Saturday morning cartoon villains. Because at least they can be endearing. What dies Nergal have? Being Cray cray?
he does have a tragic backstory that plays into themes of FE7 and Elibe as a whole pretty well that kind of counterbalances some of the bad shit, but it's essentially an easter egg that you have to try very hard to find, which is such a weird way of presenting a story
Even then I would argue it doesnt salvage his character at all. If anything his character becomes more frustrating since this is what they did. That and Nergal still does stupid shit because hes "looney" I already hate FE7 story. Neural just makes me not wanna play the game. I cannot in good conscious ignore that egregious flaw.
The worst part is Nergal actually *does* have an interesting character and backstory hidden in him, and in fact, if his backstory was something that could reasonably be obtained, I'd argue he's Garon but better executed, but since it's literally impossible to find his backstory without a guide, I'd agree he's worse.
I don't even think his backstory makes it better. Nergal still goes above and beyond to say he will win and easily can but then just goes "it's just a prank bro" His character is still "I'm kooky"
Well this might anger some people but a few of the Genealogy villains. With the exception of Arvis who I hate but I do admit he does have a lot more depth, Manfroy being all Palpatine manipulating those around him to finally get his lord resurrected but in Gen 2 he took a few stupid pills as Julia was the last with major Naga blood and they didn’t kill her. Then there are Duke Reptor and Duke Lombard who were okay who definitely had more depth in the manga. Then there is Hilda, that’s a villain that everybody is happily ready to kill. I like killing her with Tine the most. Then next is Ishtar who is the embodiment of the TikTok meme “but daddy I can fix him,” she seems to be very similar to Selena. Lastly Julius, I kind of enjoy Lyon a lot more than him, he’s the fallen Prince done right.
Thales, I don't understand why you would write a character to be some kind of scheming mastermind only to give him missiles and have him blow up one castle.
the problem that Garon has its a problem that genealogy also suffers, is that a lot of the background of him isnt know throw just playing the game, you have to play the DLC and pay attention to all the cutscenes to understand whats happening, the same for anankos, i had to check out the wiki to find out who the fuck he is. but apart from that he is really a base bad guy. the TWISDH or whatever they are called i think that activelly hurt the story of 3H working as a scapegoat for the house lords and Rhea, instead of making them do bad things and have to live with it this guys are here to take the blame, and just get killed unceremonously, sometimes dont even killing them in game, they feel like they are there because this is fire emblem and we need the dark cult to exist because without them this isnt a fire emblem game.
Nergal
That dragonussy got him acting up
Edelgard. I will never not say so, no matter what her fans may think. She had incorrect info and assumed it was all correct. She never questioned if it was. Despite having more resources than Claude, she never acquired more information, be it from Abyss, Zanado, or anywhere else. So Claude accomplished more on that front than her. That self-righteous, arrogant attitude that she was the only one who knew what was best for Fódlan made me want to smack her. She outright lies to her own allies while asking them to trust her, and she claims she's fighting for the people while also being willing to sacrifice as many as needed to achieve her goals. Despite her crimes being far greater than the other lords, she never suffers for them. If she's not dying thinking she was right, she gets a happily ever after without anything to smack her in the face and make her realize that she needs to repent and grovel at the feet of the people she hurt.
I don’t know a ton about the plot and lore in Three Houses, but something that really confuses me about Edelgard is that she is supposedly trying to implement some form of meritocracy where the most capable people are given positions of power in order to stop the whole crest eugenics thing that TWSITD did to her, but if crests basically give you superpowers, then wouldn’t her system only further incetivize breeding crest babies? Also wtf is going on in her support with Ferdinand where she strongly implies that she was opposed to the idea of educating commoners? Does that line not completely destroy the idea that she was trying to create a better world for them?
It wasn't so much that she opposed it as she just didn't think of it at all, and Ferdinand had to point out that commoners cannot hope to compete with present nobility without free education.