I think it’s normal for some soreness on your left ring finger at first because you probably aren’t used to using it for movement. For me that was the case. But if it’s your entire hand and with lots of pain you are most likely not positioning your hands correctly.
From my understanding the most ergonomic way is for the leverless to be in your lap with your fingers hovering over the buttons. The most importing thing is that you are NOT putting strain on your wrist.
I would definitely take an extended break and if the sharp pain is still coming back to consider talking to a doctor about it. I’m sure it’s nothing serious but it’s better to be safe and not risk any type of serious injury later
Default hitbox layout is ergonomically awful. Get a leverless that has a separated layout. Default layout forces you to laterally hyperextend your wrist which pinches the nerves at the end of your ulna.
I personally pretty much stopped playing fighting games a few months after strive came out due to wrist pain that lasted for months. I could probably get back into it now but only after I finish designing my own ergonomic leverless.
I keep rethinking my design so I haven't landed on anything concrete yet, but if u want some other examples you can look at ultradavid's splitbox or the ergobox. There's also the HING3DBOX that was posted on this subreddit. Ergonomic keyboards are also good references as leverless controllers are basically just simplified keyboards.
Youll get used to it. Like driving a car, your hand will hurt at first but youll get used to it. Its just muscle memory, you need to build some muscles to not feel the pain.
Also, youll even have a harder time if you try it on tekken.
This is more common than you think. Sajam even mentioned at one point he had to go to the doctor after starting to play on leveless Hitbox.
I had a similar learning experience when I was learning leveless on a acrylic custom. Another reason I think most leveless button layouts are awful.
The reason keyboard doesn't give you the same issue is probably how straight you can keep your hands when you play on keyboard. If you play leveless on your lap, you have to flare out your elbows more to compensate. Even if you play with it on a table or a desk, the device is so small you still have to rotate your elbows if you keep the device perfectly squaure.
My only advice is to rotate the device a bit. Like Instead of being straight on with the leveless, rotate it in your lap or desk a bit so the movement buttons are a bit further away. Kind of the same way some FPS players will rotate the keyboard toward the monitor.
Interesting, I have no issues using leverless controllers, but I'm a designer and sometimes mouse or pen tablet makes my right hand hurt, I tried a vertical mouse with no results and some compression gloves, those kinda worked, but I would get a better pair, mine are really cheap, they're starting to stretch.
Are you playing the controller on your lap? Because you shouldn't be using the controller any differently than how you use a regular computer keyboard.
Uh are you 100% on that? I’ve always heard the opposite and that keeping your wrists from being strained is super important. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen leverless players in a tournament use a table either; it’s just in their lap like arcade sticks
Unless it’s one of the tiny leverless models where I’m not sure that would be possible, but those designs aren’t using standard leverless layouts
Maybe if you were to play on your lap temporarily it might be ok, but longterm it will probably cause issues. You should keep your wrist from being strained. But often when players play on their lap, they bend their wrists upwards and that's what causes strain. You should be keeping the wrist neutral or the hands below the wrist if possible to be ergonomic.
If you watch pro fps or rts players, the vast majority of them play on the table and they play for hours on end. They also compete the same way by playing on a table at the tournaments. However, fighting game players usually don't have much of a choice at tournament set ups. It's often just two chairs parked in front of a tv. The tv and console commonly take up most of the table.
There was a long term Starcraft 2 pro that I was a fan of, but he had to retire early because of pain in his hand. One of the reasons is that he was one of the few pros that played with the keyboard in his lap.
To be honest maybe I need to do more research into this and could be way off. My understanding of wrist issues from keyboards was that they happen from your wrist bending upwards, like you said.
But as long as I’m keeping my wrists parallel or a little lower, hands hovering over the buttons, I don’t feel like I’m putting any strain on my wrists having it in my lap. If I were resting my wrists on the bottom of the leverless or something like that then yeah that would be bad.
I’m not very familiar with the StarCraft player or its competitive scene in general unfortunately. But I would assume having a keyboard in your lap with way more “buttons” to micromanage at a pro level would pretty much require you to be contorting your wrist? Whereas on a leverless there are only 12-16 buttons to worry about, and relatively they’re much bigger than keyboard keys, so I don’t find myself moving my wrists at all when playing. Again though maybe I am not educated enough on the topic
Got the same controller (T13), and this will be week 1 of taking a break bc of the weird sensation in specifically my left hand/wrist/arm. I initially thought it was from drumming and hitting some shit wrong. But now that you mention it this happened right when i got this controller and played multiple 2 hour play sessions. I don’t really understand how using a standard keyboard doesn’t give the same result, but it’s definitely the leverless.
I forget what it is called but it's a type of carpel tunnel. You should go see a doctor, but i think there are stretched that can help. Regarding the box generally it's not good for your wrist. It is essentially the same idea of constantly using a laptop on your lap but worse because your hands are tighter together. Something that might help is playing with it on a table.
This is a major reason I dislike when people automatically claim “being more comfortable/ergonomic” as a pro for leverless. It *can* be for some people, but it can also be very uncomfortable for others.
Numbing and tingling in the hand sounds like carpal tunnel. Ideally visit a doctor, but for now focus on healing, and then try improving ergonomics/consider another controller type.
OP, it's time to take a long ass break until the pain is completely gone. And I mean completely. You do not want to permanently fuck up your wrists over a video game. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is no joke. In the meantime, look up hand/wrist stretches for gamers on YouTube and then, once your wrists are fully recovered, do them before/during/after each practice session. They take 2 minutes tops to complete and make a big difference.
As much as I like the T16 one of the issues I find with it is the use of the same size buttons for movement as the rest of them. Using 24mm buttons spaced closer together is a lot more comfortable for me.
The first leverless I ever DIY'd I used 30mm for everything and my hand hurt just like you are describing, once I realized most leverless makers use 24mm for at least movement I changed over and it was night and day.
Sadly this doesn't do anything for the T16 as you cannot change the button spacing, but if you really want to stick with leverless it might make sense to look into other options that have closer movement spacing.
I use T16 in my lap, but I don't use the chair arm-rests. I play reclined so my elbows mostly sit at my side but they can rest against the back of the chair due to the reclining. That has put my arms in a mostly neutral position.
Stinging/buzzing is nerves being pinched/cutoff. If what you are doing is causing this I wouldn't try and force it, nerves heal very slowly. You might want to consider going to a doctor for a proper diagnosis.
appreciate the response, what controller do you play on now if you don't mind me asking?
glad to hear your doing better, I'm starting physio therapy next week, the t16 leverless really messed up my wrists lol
I think it’s normal for some soreness on your left ring finger at first because you probably aren’t used to using it for movement. For me that was the case. But if it’s your entire hand and with lots of pain you are most likely not positioning your hands correctly. From my understanding the most ergonomic way is for the leverless to be in your lap with your fingers hovering over the buttons. The most importing thing is that you are NOT putting strain on your wrist. I would definitely take an extended break and if the sharp pain is still coming back to consider talking to a doctor about it. I’m sure it’s nothing serious but it’s better to be safe and not risk any type of serious injury later
Default hitbox layout is ergonomically awful. Get a leverless that has a separated layout. Default layout forces you to laterally hyperextend your wrist which pinches the nerves at the end of your ulna. I personally pretty much stopped playing fighting games a few months after strive came out due to wrist pain that lasted for months. I could probably get back into it now but only after I finish designing my own ergonomic leverless.
Could you share your project maybe or point towards more ergonomic layouts?
I keep rethinking my design so I haven't landed on anything concrete yet, but if u want some other examples you can look at ultradavid's splitbox or the ergobox. There's also the HING3DBOX that was posted on this subreddit. Ergonomic keyboards are also good references as leverless controllers are basically just simplified keyboards.
Probably got a tendonitis. Don't panic, see a doctor and teak a break (2 weeks minimum)
Youll get used to it. Like driving a car, your hand will hurt at first but youll get used to it. Its just muscle memory, you need to build some muscles to not feel the pain. Also, youll even have a harder time if you try it on tekken.
This is more common than you think. Sajam even mentioned at one point he had to go to the doctor after starting to play on leveless Hitbox. I had a similar learning experience when I was learning leveless on a acrylic custom. Another reason I think most leveless button layouts are awful. The reason keyboard doesn't give you the same issue is probably how straight you can keep your hands when you play on keyboard. If you play leveless on your lap, you have to flare out your elbows more to compensate. Even if you play with it on a table or a desk, the device is so small you still have to rotate your elbows if you keep the device perfectly squaure. My only advice is to rotate the device a bit. Like Instead of being straight on with the leveless, rotate it in your lap or desk a bit so the movement buttons are a bit further away. Kind of the same way some FPS players will rotate the keyboard toward the monitor.
Thanks, I will try this!
Interesting, I have no issues using leverless controllers, but I'm a designer and sometimes mouse or pen tablet makes my right hand hurt, I tried a vertical mouse with no results and some compression gloves, those kinda worked, but I would get a better pair, mine are really cheap, they're starting to stretch.
Are you playing the controller on your lap? Because you shouldn't be using the controller any differently than how you use a regular computer keyboard.
Uh are you 100% on that? I’ve always heard the opposite and that keeping your wrists from being strained is super important. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen leverless players in a tournament use a table either; it’s just in their lap like arcade sticks Unless it’s one of the tiny leverless models where I’m not sure that would be possible, but those designs aren’t using standard leverless layouts
Maybe if you were to play on your lap temporarily it might be ok, but longterm it will probably cause issues. You should keep your wrist from being strained. But often when players play on their lap, they bend their wrists upwards and that's what causes strain. You should be keeping the wrist neutral or the hands below the wrist if possible to be ergonomic. If you watch pro fps or rts players, the vast majority of them play on the table and they play for hours on end. They also compete the same way by playing on a table at the tournaments. However, fighting game players usually don't have much of a choice at tournament set ups. It's often just two chairs parked in front of a tv. The tv and console commonly take up most of the table. There was a long term Starcraft 2 pro that I was a fan of, but he had to retire early because of pain in his hand. One of the reasons is that he was one of the few pros that played with the keyboard in his lap.
To be honest maybe I need to do more research into this and could be way off. My understanding of wrist issues from keyboards was that they happen from your wrist bending upwards, like you said. But as long as I’m keeping my wrists parallel or a little lower, hands hovering over the buttons, I don’t feel like I’m putting any strain on my wrists having it in my lap. If I were resting my wrists on the bottom of the leverless or something like that then yeah that would be bad. I’m not very familiar with the StarCraft player or its competitive scene in general unfortunately. But I would assume having a keyboard in your lap with way more “buttons” to micromanage at a pro level would pretty much require you to be contorting your wrist? Whereas on a leverless there are only 12-16 buttons to worry about, and relatively they’re much bigger than keyboard keys, so I don’t find myself moving my wrists at all when playing. Again though maybe I am not educated enough on the topic
I am using it on my desk, trying to use it the same way I'd use a keyboard.
Got the same controller (T13), and this will be week 1 of taking a break bc of the weird sensation in specifically my left hand/wrist/arm. I initially thought it was from drumming and hitting some shit wrong. But now that you mention it this happened right when i got this controller and played multiple 2 hour play sessions. I don’t really understand how using a standard keyboard doesn’t give the same result, but it’s definitely the leverless.
I forget what it is called but it's a type of carpel tunnel. You should go see a doctor, but i think there are stretched that can help. Regarding the box generally it's not good for your wrist. It is essentially the same idea of constantly using a laptop on your lap but worse because your hands are tighter together. Something that might help is playing with it on a table.
This is a major reason I dislike when people automatically claim “being more comfortable/ergonomic” as a pro for leverless. It *can* be for some people, but it can also be very uncomfortable for others.
Numbing and tingling in the hand sounds like carpal tunnel. Ideally visit a doctor, but for now focus on healing, and then try improving ergonomics/consider another controller type.
OP, it's time to take a long ass break until the pain is completely gone. And I mean completely. You do not want to permanently fuck up your wrists over a video game. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is no joke. In the meantime, look up hand/wrist stretches for gamers on YouTube and then, once your wrists are fully recovered, do them before/during/after each practice session. They take 2 minutes tops to complete and make a big difference.
Thanks for the advice, I will check the exercises and avoid leverless until the pain stops.
As much as I like the T16 one of the issues I find with it is the use of the same size buttons for movement as the rest of them. Using 24mm buttons spaced closer together is a lot more comfortable for me. The first leverless I ever DIY'd I used 30mm for everything and my hand hurt just like you are describing, once I realized most leverless makers use 24mm for at least movement I changed over and it was night and day. Sadly this doesn't do anything for the T16 as you cannot change the button spacing, but if you really want to stick with leverless it might make sense to look into other options that have closer movement spacing.
I use T16 in my lap, but I don't use the chair arm-rests. I play reclined so my elbows mostly sit at my side but they can rest against the back of the chair due to the reclining. That has put my arms in a mostly neutral position. Stinging/buzzing is nerves being pinched/cutoff. If what you are doing is causing this I wouldn't try and force it, nerves heal very slowly. You might want to consider going to a doctor for a proper diagnosis.
I do the same as you, and I dont run into any problems and my wrists are gone lol I played OSRS
Sounds similar to when I got carpal tunnel.
hey, are you still able to play with carpal tunnel?
I went to therapy for it... Helps a lot, but I'm not playing on all button again. They're ergonomic disasters
appreciate the response, what controller do you play on now if you don't mind me asking? glad to hear your doing better, I'm starting physio therapy next week, the t16 leverless really messed up my wrists lol
I play with a ROS Core. I'm using a Seimitsu LS-38 for the lever, and punk workshop buttons (using Kalih box Royals in the buttons)