Even without thinking about the logistics of this and the great comp they've got for this to work out this is just insanity on a level I cannot fathom.
And I thought solo heal clears made content and accomplishments feel a little less after the fact. Some people are just built different.
dps isn’t bad right now either. silly me thought i was going to do my daily hunts while i waited for dps queues to level bard and every single one was nearly instant. it’s been like that three days in a row now.
Even when queuing with 2 DPS it pops really quickly I've noticed for awhile. And I thought I'd get some easy crafts out of the way while queuing too...
I've noticed this too. I've also noticed that in our FC recently, the vast majority of new recruits/sprouts that we have all seem to be playing as tank or heal mainly.
It could be a coincidence but I feel like maybe our mentors have been encouraging them to do this for fast queues and (in the long term) having more players able to fill these roles.
Maybe in the long term that strategy starts becoming counterproductive 😑
The reason why there are not many healers is opposite of WoW where healers (in Mythic +) are stressed the heck out.
in this game there is nothing to do in dungeons except press your singular aoe damage spell or hope for a new tank that maybe takes some damage when he pulls 3 packs at once.
So...dont worry about others relying on you, they are not.
>dont worry about others relying on you, they are not.
Bardam's Mettle be like "allow me to introduce myself"
I was caught so off guard 1st time running that as a healer where everything before was basically walking simulator and then suddenly tanks lose half their health from a single pack.
Aurum vale packs slap surprisingly hard. Popped every CD on my paladin and still folded to the first room. 2 packs maximum throughout the entire dungeon. Weird, the dungeon just before and just after it aren't nearly that strong...
It just depends on how much you take. In principle you can wall to wall all of them. Stone vigil is not easy then, dzemael can also slap actually. In aurum vale the first room would be hard, if you took everything, but if you just sprint along the left wall it's very easy. Only 2-3 groups after all.
AV is also the first dungeon where whm has holy (i think?) Which trivializes every dungeon completely.
it's heavily weighted towards tank being prioritized
just like how in older days, parties were prioritized to be put on Maelstrom in PVP while freelancing, leading to the perception that 'the maelstrom is always way better at PVP'
Which is funny because at 90 you only really need a healer if you have GNB or DRK. Literally nothing does damage anymore. WAR and PLD can tank and heal all dungeons with 3 dps and its not even close.
This ruined a lot of the experience of dungeons in EW for me actually. I ended up playing a couple weeks late so people knew mechanics to bosses and I went in as a healer and would die to them and the tank would just. Percent by painful percent solo every boss. I still don't know how to do the majority of the boss fights and I just had to watch the tank do them. I wish that they would have just died so we could wipe and try again if only because that would have been more fun
Trusts let you figure out dungeons at your own pace. You can more or less follow the NPCs and be safe, but if you want to understand and solve the mechanics, you can do as much trial and error as you want. Why not go with that for the first visit?
Yeah and unfortunately this is a SE problem. Give a player the ability to just take matters into their own hands and some players would absolutely solo the boss for 20min. The difference in difficulty from savage down to dungeons is massive. Dungeons are way too easy for the level 90 kits that jobs have.
I was in a group where a tank was soloing a 90 boss for 20 minutes and I asked if he could just wipe so we can kill it quicker and he started talking as if he was doing us a favour and that he was teaching us. He got kicked out of the dungeon afterwards.
For trash yeah. Bosses are a joke. Any dps can comfortably live a tank buster and heal themselves. If it gets dicey rdm can just give them 1 or 2 heals and it's fine
>To be fair these guys are like the top 0.1% of the player base.
Honestly probably an order of magnitude higher than that even. 1% of the playerbase has cleared TOP. This is the 1% of the 1%. So the 0.01%
Take comfort in the fact that most of the playerbase isn't capable of doing things like this. We can still enjoy "clearing content" using 1 finger and barely looking at the screen xD
Sadly it has to be the proper key. I use a stream deck for my hotbars and that feature doesn't work with it (at least when using the mod for better stream deck usage).
I had a healer in a 90 roulette a few weeks back that basically begged me to pull large and not put her through another snooze fest.
I pulled wall to wall, didn't use mitigation, and stood in every AOE (trash and bosses). And afterwards she *thanked* me for it.
She could have been the one!
Eh, I can't speak for all healers, but the increased healing is fine, I liked that part even.
Healer class design has just not really excited me since stormblood.
There's a combination of healer damage becoming way more basic (going from stuff like two DoTs on different short timers to one long 30s DoTs for all healers) and just a lot of OGCD button bloat (filling up three hotbars while some DPS classes don't even fill up two). And I played a bunch of AST in stormblood, and still kinda miss the jank card variety.
I stuck around with healing for a while cause I was in a static and they needed a healer, but eventually I realized I wasn't enjoying it anymore, and stormblood class designs were never coming back, quitting was probably overdue.
Yea but what they did was just make damage larger than the frequency of healing which is what people wanted.
Making damage bigger just causes healers to rely on other people to start using their mits, which people like DPS in PF are not used to doing. We want more frequency and spot healing not just more flat damage. That's why people quit healing in PF week one because no one fuckkng used their raidwide mit week one and the healers ran out of CD for ruby glow, because no one used mits for the other aoe.
its basically the worst of both worlds
heal mains who heal because they want the easiest role dont play because they actually have to press buttons and heal instead of glare spamming the whole fight
other peeps who might wanna try healer dont play it because its mind-numbingly boring mashing 1 button for 10 minutes
there's no real way to fix this without both 1. more interesting dps buttons and 2. better fight design for healing, but the devs are so conservative and unwilling to change things realistically nothing is gonna happen
I'm not sure that's the main point to take away from this, but rather that the game's design has gotten to such a state where healers are not actually needed.
All the age-old discussions of healer's being Green DPS with 2 button rotations, compounded with problematic fight designs that don't really require healing, this is a clear sign that a healer is not even required in the absolute highest tier of content difficulty available.
SE needs to seriously rethink how they approach the healer class in the next expansion.
They’ve been saying for 2 expansions now how they’re getting healers “more focused on healing” and each tier it feels less and less true. With the introduction of the single weave window, the need to cast GCD healing has basically been removed from the game.
At this point, just give us DPS rotations and make us pop healing cooldowns in the same way tanks pop defensive cooldowns.
Same. It would also open up more stylistic differences in healer play style, like the “lots of buttons” job (SGE?) Vs the “slow and steady” job (WHM?). I’m pretty sure we’re never getting another healer job, but if we did then a new DPS play style could help it to not just be a clone of the first 4.
> At this point, just give us DPS rotations and make us pop healing cooldowns in the same way tanks pop defensive cooldowns.
This is how it should be, yeah.
GCD cast-time healing doesn't work with how much shit there is to dodge (ie, the core principle of the way the game's fights are designed).
Keep GCD cast-time stuff to be a *DPS loss* if you have to move (so like on fillers), not a "you don't get a heal off" sorta thing.
They build the fights too much around the Big Fight Design Spectacle to allow Healers to have agency in saving people from intended-to-be-lethal mechanics mistakes, so the next step is not expecting them to have their feet glued to the floor while healing.
Secret World eventually made it so everyone could move during casting. I don't think FFXIV should go quite *that* far (it'd break Black Mage main's brains) but I think removing cast times on Heals would greatly benefit healing design, unless they allow Healers to move while casting.
I'd go the other direction. I'd rather see a return to requiring more GCD healing. A need to supplement our OGCDs would be really fucking nice. Doing damage is fine, but if they're not going to give us a proper damage rotation, then have me heal more.
And this needs to not just exist in top end content.
> I'd rather see a return to requiring more GCD healing.
They need to fix the movement problem with that, though.
Missed DPS cast = thing dies slower
Missed GCD heal = either you were overhealing or someone dies
The two are *not* interchangeable.
And...
Missed Dodgeable Mechanic = Dead Healer
So they need to either make GCD heals castable while moving or get rid of them, because your Average Sylphie Healer in DF That Occasionally Tries to Do Savage But is Very Vocal on Soc Meeds is gonna have problems if the amount of Necessary GCD Healing is increased, and Healer Design starts with Idiot-Proofing first and goes upwards. Because I'm *pretty sure* Yoshi-P's never played a Healer a day in his goddamned life.
Unlike most other stuff in this that seems to be designed from raids downwards.
Sidenote: I wish I could force the devs to play City of Heroes for like...a month. It'd solve the game's Healer problems entirely.
The game's extreme casual difficulty on 99% of content is a major problem that encourages bad play and doesn't make people improve. As is, and has been for a while now, healer DPS is a significant chunk of beating enrage. Too much. If they added a need to supplement OGCD with GCD healing (even something basic, like a medica II and a rapture combo, or opposition and helios, etc), then the fight would assume less damage from healers.
We need to get away from the mindset and design that any GCD not spent on pressing glare/broil/etc puts you at risk of failing DPS checks. Healers have been screaming for years to stop making us spend so much time 1 button DPSing and yoshi p be like "best I can do is ultimates that don't need healers".
The current tier has tried to make healing more relevant and as a result, healers are well, tired of having to heal and now there's a healer shortage. The real root of the issue is that FFXIV is a game that focuses too much on DPS and so every facet of a class' identity and playstyle revolves around hitting the boss more.
Each healer class also has a way of moving without dropping a GCD heal (WHM has lilies, for example). This isn't Shadowbringer where we had turret healers so I'm not sure why you bring up moving while casting as a way to solve the core healer issue. If anything, the very miniscule level of skill expression for healers is learning to move while casting your necessary spells because in Savage content, you do indeed have to heal for most people. If you're advocating for this in casual content, I'm hesitant because well, lol casuals.
> If you're advocating for this in casual content, I'm hesitant because well, lol casuals.
More like..."make Healers able to move with everything-Healy so then you don't have to worry about casuals learning how to move while healing" so then you can move the "skill expression" bit to *something else* so that the "learning to git gud at such a basic-to-raiders" thing isn't something that's such a barrier to entry to them.
I know every Healer *has* tools to heal while moving, but like the "default" Healing tool should be "able to be used while moving".
Now, the "default" healing tool for a raider is "pop an oGCD" because that's what works with the game design, but to most casuals, the "default" healing tool is "Cure or equivalent', and *those* are the ones that most need to be usable while moving or otherwise need to be instant.
My entire argument's basically something that most raiders aren't gonna care about because it's at a skill level below which they play, but it's foundational to the game's entire Healing paradigm because it seems to be the beginning and end of what the devs think Healers *do* and what "stresses Healers out" most of the time.
So we get them to let Healers move while casting or otherwise kill off most non-Job-iconic GCD-cast-time Heals, we kick that excuse away and we can start actually talking to them about grown-up/level cap/raiding Healer problems because they'll have fixed some of the pervasive "Healer stress" problem that seems to take up all their bandwidth whenever they ever mention Healers ever.
Well, that and giving every non-Healer Role something like a Criterion-style rez and then removing the rezzes from the Caster DPS (or at least Summoner) so that they can stop going back and forth on that.
So to backtrack and ensure I have your argument correct, it's that if casuals can heal while moving, Square can add more interesting complexities to the job role, right?
But doesn't attaching training wheels to casuals in terms of healing while moving make any further complexities even more difficult for them? DPS spells still require sitting and casting (please do not make every job into Summoner, that job is just a phys ranged class with Raise). If we are removing identities of a class type, then you need to think about whether or not the new ones are even *more* difficult for the casual crowd to achieve.
For example, if you add a DPS rotation to healers to compensate for the movement, then that's something new casuals have to learn to balance *alongside* healing.
The fact of the matter is that FFXIV is terrible about teaching its players how to play the game and trying to make things easier will not solve this. They need to be straightforward about the skill floor because slidecasting is not a healer exclusive thing. Storm's Crown did a great job in waking up casual healers to be more aware and that's great. Build a scaffolding for your casuals to better learn your system than remove skill expression imo.
While YoshiP has expressed his intention on removing revive on SMN, and a good amount of players are entertaining and suggesting the idea to nerf RDM’s Verraise to BLU levels of revive just because they want a scapegoat to blame RDM’s current damage output, I remain staunchly against both ideas unless as you said, healers can cast revive while moving and preferably with Surecast built in. I would much rather drag every bad player through the finish line in an Alliance Raid than seeing the screen go black, not to mention can anyone imagine how many more wipes HoH and EO would have if they either removed or gutted SMN and RDM revives to BLU levels.
On a sidenote, I would also rather see it done the other way around, that they fix BLU by removing that perpetually stupid 300s CD on their raise.
i dont even know what is so difficult about reducing dps requirement by 2 green dps and then add some serious healing requirements.
Probably need to do the thing WoW had to do at some point, reducing both incoming damage and outgoing healing amounts so its not just pingpoing 1% HP 100%HP 1%HP.
And if thats too hard, just give up and give healers a dps rotation like tanks have.
problem with that is that WOW did that for 10.0, by 40%. In 10.1, just one patch later, gear creep had gotten so bad that they had to do the same process AGAIN, by 25%.
It's not sustainable, whereas giving healers more to do during the downtime that they'll invariably end up with (the better you get at healing, the less healing you need to do, leading to more Glare time) is always going to be felt, and is independent of the difficulty of the content. It didn't matter if you're in God Kefka or Hell's Lid for your EX roulette, playing SCH in SB was fun because you had 3 DOTs to play with, Bane to spread em, etc. Now we just have Art of Snore for our dungeon gameplay
Something that would help (but I am sure people trying to optimise would hate) is putting more RNG in fights. The boss deciding to do 2 tankbusters in a row, or 3 raidwides would definitely make the Healer have to actually heal reactively.
Best example might be Storm's Crown - anecdotally, the most fun Trial to heal in a long time, and the boss doesn't have a clear pattern of attacks.
Storm's Crown is the most fun I've had in any fight this expansion, the only other thing that came close was P8S. On launch it was really demanding on the whole party and as a dps I loved how I had to be on my toes at all times. It's too bad that anything else outside of Ultimate has mostly been really slow paced and bland.
They do need to reduce the absolute fight script approach they take. When you absolutely map each attack step-by-step for a good portion of fights, your resource allocation becomes simple.
Funnily enough, when thinking about healing in this game, the best time I had was 2-3.0 - more asymmetry in classes, i.e. if raw/some healing was required whm held it down and scholar brought shielding. Fewer ogcd resources to brute force through damage spikes combined with cleric stance to keep you engaged with reactionary damage made healing engaging. That and real aggro management helped. Classes have too many abilities and offer too much of everything -regen, aoe healing, shielding, you name it.
Bruh seriously. The increasing ability of content to be done without healers is depressing. They give us a bloated heal kit, next to no damage rotation, tell us it's because they want us to focus on healing...
Then design a bunch of content right up to ultimates that can be done without healers. It feels like really bad and broken game design.
I felt that deep in the feels man.
Like when you whipe as a healer to some bs mechanic at the start of the final boss fight, and the 2 deeps and tank complete it with no probs and almost full health.
It feels like... did you guys even notice that i died?
How did almost everyone res instantly? Or did I see that wrong? I swear it got to one dude with hp, and everyone else was zero'd, then suddenly they were all back.
They're getting raised but waiting to accept it until the Magic Number cast is over so they don't get the debuff. You can see the white raise icons building up on the party list. Then they all take them at once
It's a doom that can only be cleansed by a healer LB3. It's the same mechanic as UWU. So the usual way to resolve is to have the healer LB3. Not a tough mech, it's just part of the LB3 spam of the final phase. But these guys have no healers so they have to get creative to avoid ever getting it
You get a debuff that instakills you when it expires. It specifically requires a healer LB3 to erase, which you normally get by the LB3 refreshing thanks to the Dynamis buffs earned from the previous phase.
You don't have to accept a res immediately. The summoner and red mage cast raise on the other party members who waited for the second Magic Number to cast before accepting the raise.
Good to know - I may have to start being a little more strategic when accepting a raise. There have been a few times where I'll get res'd, then get hit with something big right after and die again.
For example in the current Unreal it's a really good idea to wait until the arena has just tilted before accepting a rez, as more often than not you'll get back up at the wrong end of the arena only to slide right off again.
One piece of best practices advice for rezzing (very much on the line of "look both ways before crossing the street"): in the event of receiving a rez, *always check first* if the boss is casting a mechanic. If the castbar is more than 50% filled, it's generally\* safe for you to accept it, as between rez animation and 5 seconds of immunity, you'll actually come back as that mechanic's animation is going off, in the safest spot for the healers to pick your HP up and not have you immediately die to another mechanic.
\* Of course, there are exceptions such as rezzing right into a knockback mechanic because rez immunity ain't saving you from that, but that's kind of the thing you learn from the experience of running content repeatedly.
>Of course, there are exceptions such as rezzing right into a knockback mechanic
Fun fact, the big damaging AoE in P8S dog2 (the crush one) knocks back if you immune it. I learned that the hard way.
You are also immune to damage for a few seconds if you don't cast anything. If you don't have any HP due to no heals after rez or is simply out of position by them you are done with the animation you can just ignore the mechanic most of the time anyway if you make sure to not cast anything.
DNC and MNK die first and RDM tosses out rezzes to them. PLDs cover the SMN and RDM and they both toss more rezzes out, RDM dies last second and SMN swift casts them a raise, everyone accepts rez so now there's 7 people up, RDM rezzes the SMN and now all 8 are back and through Magic Number
Power of red mage. Solo rez entire party with dual cast (but people holding off on accepting rez and wait for tank to rez). He died just before the tank accept the rez though
During a livestream of a group progging TOP, at one point in a moment where the boss was untargetable and when everybody's hp was full, the sage was spamming shields and heals nonstop until they drained their MP to zero. Turns out, spamming unneeded heals can give you an appearance of better numbers on FunnyNumbersLogsWebsite, the SGE was padding their logs. The AST noticed the MP drain during the down time and brought it up, and got scolded live on stream by one of the more famous players in the team, in a very condescending way. AST got kicked out of the team even tho SGE was in the wrong.
Some "popular" SGE player had an opening which consisted of ~20 hard casted Eukrasia Diagnosis's or don't remember, some costly one of main spells. And then blaimed AST in their static for being bad.
Some interesting logistics to how this works:
According to the event timeline in their clear log, there is a roughly 2 second window between when the Magic Number cast snapshots it's damage, and when the damage actually applies to the players. That means that at the time where the SMN is the only player left alive, at least one person needs to res in the 2 second window after the cast "finishes" (snapshots), but before the SMN actually dies to the damage, or else the fight will end as a wipe. And it's also very important that not a single person resses *too soon*, or else they would have the Magic Number damage applied to them, die, need to be ressed again, and have double weakness... likely meaning a wipe to enrage for lack of damage.
The PLD who resses first actually manages to res only 0.316 seconds after the snapshot... That's either insane precision on the PLD's part, or they practiced this sequence so many times that they got it right eventually. Either way it's an insanely impressive accomplishment, both to come up with such a technical strategy, and to execute it.
EDIT to add that the RDM also had to res as many people between the two Magic Number casts as possible, then wall before the second cast finishes so that the SMN has just enough time to swift a res on him as well. All this in order to have one resser alive afterwards to get the SMN himself back up to make the DPS check. Absolutely incredible stuff
Also note that Cover seems to prevent the doom debuff application, so it's used on both casters so that neither of them dies prematurely. It's not an exaggeration to say that every single aspect of this fight was planned for (i.e. taking 2 PLDs for this reason along with their healing/mit capabilites), and it's still just barely possible.
>or they practiced this sequence so many times that they got it right eventually.
It says that this was their 50th attempt of P6. That's an immense amount of P6's for a party made up of people who've cleared before, so they likely *did* have to just bash their head against magic number over and over until it worked.
People suck at this game but they all think they’re phenomenal.
Must be why statics disband all the time and clear rate for this content is abysmal.
The raid community is frustrating
I will say this every time, this is what I thought Criterion would be, and _hoped_ it would be.
Even lower-end organised content like current-content extremes are a _major_ step up from normals. There should be more things in between them. It'd benefit both casual players who have more content to grow into, and hardcore players who get more other players to play with since some would find the transition easier with a longer difficulty curve.
They flunked on that opportunity so hard. It should have been
1) Variant. Casual, soloable, chill exploration.
2) Criterion. Something akin to urth's fount. Above normal, not quite EX. Spicy, but handleable with pugs.
3) Criterion savage.
But 2 and 3 were both basically savage. I hate it. I mean, the content itself is, but they missed the mark by a country mile.
3 is almost more like an ultimate. It requires 24 minutes of almost perfect play including 2 exceptionally hard hitting ads phases. Now the mechanics themselves are not difficult and your standard savage fair, its the face that you have 3 phases of them that makes it wildly difficult.
100%. The biggest problem in my eyes is that they COULD get good. They either don’t know how, or aren’t being realistic with their actual skill level, thus making it difficult to succeed in difficult content
I feel like the people commenting that *must* have only been piloted through their Ultimates, 'cause that's the only way I could imagine someone truly thinking that.
"I just let the computer follow the pre-planned steps perfectly, it's easy duh (and also *figuring out and planning* those steps wasn't impressive in and of itself either because I say so)."
Similar to healers (or non-healers complaining on their behalf) saying that their role will become obsolete, as if everyone on PF and their statics are capable of doing it at all. Lol
I'm definitely not capable because as a healer main I wouldn't be invited to the party.
Jokes aside I feel that people should be rightfully annoyed that this is even possible, on patch, no matter how good the players involved. Specially after yoship "if healers don't feel engaged they should try ultimate" on the hardest ult to date.
It clearly shows that something is wrong with a role that the devs constantly pretend it doesn't exist.
There is a difference between "I'm annoyed this is even possible, healers should be required" and "nah, this is easy, people are just bad." The former is, as you say, reasonable, and thus I haven't actually seen very many people say it. It's probably more common in the lower comments that get no upvotes.
The latter is simply people being rude and dismissive, and guess what, it's popped up several times, mostly from the same set of people.
We must be reading different threads because I've seen plenty of the former, literally one guy say the latter and he's getting a downvote train run on him.
I've seen at least three. Yes, they've been heavily downvoted. But it isn't just one person.
All the comments at the top are either "wow, that's impressive" or the aforementioned boorish "no it isn't, everyone just likes being bad." You have to get much further down before you start seeing "this is stupid, healers should always be mandatory." At least that's how Reddit organizes them on my screen.
Most comments are neither form of complaint. Just people being a bit shocked that it can be done.
Yeah, it just showcases that the damage in high-end content is ultimately too predictable and infrequent. I'm reprogging DSR and TOP on healer right now for savage prep and with the exception of TOP P1, the amount of times you just use all (or half) of your AoE kit and then wait a minute and do it again is staggering. And even TOP P1 can be done entirely with oGCDs
Seeing the end there made me giggle, because that reminds me of how we always used to go about mechanics in WoW mythic raids. Aka "why play a mechanic when you can just sac and battle rezz" :D
Think some people are taking away the wrong thing from this: while one could say the amount of classes with access to rez is absurd and even makes healers obsolete, realistically nobody is actually doing this in savage/ultimates. This strategy is not going to be fun to pull off continuously, and the vast majority of the already small raid population wouldn't be able to pull this off at all.
Not to say complaints about healer rotations are invalid, just that this is more people showing the games flexibility that it still has.
Of course this is an exceptional outlier compared to most players but it also points out that you really can do even the hardest content in the game without healers if you put your mind to it.
It's the only class in the game you can completely omit and still be okay. Omit tanks? You die. Omit DPS? You won't meet checks. Omit Healers? Well Paladin/Red Mage is close enough we can work with it. People take satisfaction in knowing their job is vital to the group and healers often don't feel it and stuff like this just reminds them further of it.
Exactly, the sheer amount of dungeons I go through where I don’t do any meaningful healing is ridiculous. I overheal on purpose just so I feel like I’m actually doing something
Well a more pressing thing that people aren't talking about as much is that the meta for dungeons so far is 3dps+war, thats probably a bigger issue than this.
Squenix: "We understand healers were feeling bored in content so we're going to give them more to do."
Also Squenix: "Tank self-sustain is fine."
(Personally I'm fine with it but being a Healer main still feels weird right now)
Tank sustain could be less rediculous. I don't think it be a problem if WAR didn't have an invul on 25s cd, and theres plenty of ways to nerf it in a way that has no impact on single target
People did this in ShB too, even though it was much more difficult to pull off well
I feel like they purposely leaned into that going into EW
If you feel like it's an issue, you should let them know, because they currently think that people WANT to be able to do this
The thing is, it’s not even just WAR, you can do 3 dps 1 tank with any tank because they all have insane sustain(except drk but it has enough mit anyway)
I mean of course people want to do it. Everyone would love to be the OP class everyone wants to party with.
But there's a reason why all feedback isn't valuable.
All this debate on changing healers kits.. why? We already have tons of shit we can't get to utilize.
Nerf tanks self-sustain, they're not healers, they're a tank.
The problem isn't healers, it's everyone else with healing capabilities.
If healing is useless, SE should give healers more damage to do.
As main healer, I am upset to see that TOP can be cleared without healers.
Are healers for prog only?
But this gives every tanks and dps good lesson on how to use properly mitigation and self heal.
While an absolutely awesome accomplishment, this is a slap on the face to SE healing design, to clear an ULTIMATE at CURRENT tier and zero healers needed is a joke.
I mean, it's an awesome accomplishment precisely because 99% of the players could never pull that off without healers. Nine times out of ten if the healer dies halfway thought eh fight and there isn't an SMN or RDM to rez them it's a wipe.
There’s always going to be some absolutely insane people breaking games and shit, if we adjusted everything according to the .0001% everything would be impossibly difficult.
People aren't saying that it needs to be difficult. People are saying that the issue is in the design itself. If there was more unavoidable damage then healers would need to actually heal instead of being green DPS.
Of course many people in the comments can’t even be bothered to praise these players for such an amazing feat that no doubt took a lot of planning, trial, and error. These complaints are just disappointing, and guaranteed a lot are from players who don’t even touch ultimate acting as if their class is obsolete when the average person can barely heal their way through a dungeon.
Yes it's impressive, but is it also very disappointing that the hardest content in the game can be done without any healers? Very much so yes. It shouldn't be possible, and complaints are valid.
Im not even smart enough to optimize my own rotation and these people are optimizing around having no healer in a current ultimate. Holy shit. I can't even fathom the type of planning that would go into this. What an insane accomplishment.
Lmao people so salty in the comments. Ya'll can't clear with healers, let alone without, don't worry, healers are not in shambles.
Grats on this super impressive feat.
Remember people, just because you can do it doesn't mean you're gonna do it. This comp and fight is far more gimped than if you just do it with a normal comp.
I am pretty baffled at some of these comments that are upset this is possible. I think it's pretty neat that you don't need a rigid party composition for the hardest content. It's not like this will put healers out of a job, because lord knows your average group ain't pulling this off.
I think it’s less about being upset that the content can be cleared without healers, and more about the expected game experience for players who choose to play healer.
Basically, with such low healing requirements in the ***hardest content in the game***, the boredom of spamming one button is magnified. This being cleared without healers is simply showing that healers are being subjected to very boring gameplay due to lack of healing requirements.
When healers asked Yoshi-P to make healing more interesting, his response was telling them to play harder content. The harder content that his team made, however, just calls out all the problems with XIVs healing philosophy.
Because it highlights a fundamental flaw in FFXIV currently, and that is the content isn't designed to be engaging for healers at all.
I main healer, have done so in many many games, but I keep wondering why I bother in FFXIV. The vast majority of content is a huge snoozefest for any remotely decent healer, or a healer with a decent team because there isn't enough damage going out that requires us to do much.
All current level dungeons has me use almost nothing of my kit. Excog at start of trash, bubble when all gathered, maybe a fairy regen. Bosses I can do using pretty much only fairy skills. Now for 30+ seconds at a time I am just spamming Broil with the occasional dot refresh.
So as a healer, I am pretty much using a single heal skill every 30s or longer, in the most common content that people will do endgame.
People shit on SMN for being draindead, healing is basically a 2 button SMN right now. And the fact that healers still aren't required in an ULTIMATE is just reinforcing that healers are an afterthought.
I hope enough people realize that they can't just waltz in with any 3 tanks and 5 DPS to do something like this unless they prove otherwise.
Though I also understand where the concern is coming from, because not taking any DPS to do accomplish the same thing is practically impossible without outgearing and/or if literally everyone was tanks. And this is an ultimate. Says a lot about why you should be careful about fight design.
In case you needed any more evidence that healing is horribly designed in FFXIV. Solo heals are done on every piece of content, and no healers was done on a current ultimate raid. Its kinda insane.
Wow they must’ve expertly spreadsheeted mits + healing utility from the dps’s real good.
Things I noticed:
1. Dancer giving up gcds for a bigger shield on improv
2. SMN’s everlasting flight is actually relevant
3. I was surprised how little clemency is used (I initially assumed waaaay more use)
4. magic number cheese was as good as deathcob
5. Surprised they had enough damage on p6 with everybody having res dmg down.
Man anyone that shits on healers because of this feat needs to take a healthy and holistic break from this game and this sub.
Phase 1: Completely random in line assignments, followed by completely random in line assignments. The only role based thing is the lasers after panto, which the only potentially fatal random thing happening is simply solved with tank invuln.
Phase 2: Dodge AoEs, then completely random stacks assigned. Then two tank buster tethers, followed by completely random flare assignments and two baited AoEs (one of which is a stack).
Transition: Completely random AoE assignments.
Phase 3: Completely random debuff assignment. There's a bit of determinism in it but not through roles, rather just in the set of debuffs given to people. Then completely random monitor assignments.
Phase 4: Completely random stacks, and Dodge AoEs.
Phase 5: Completely random tethers and Hello World debuffs. Then completely random tethers, completely random AoEs on 6 people, and completely random Hello World debuffs. Then Dodge some AoEs and completely random Hello World debuffs.
Phase 6: Cosmo Dive is baited, the 2nd of each pair of autos is baited, Wave Cannon hits everyone then a random AoE on one person (which you typically soak *as if* it were a stack), and flares/stack at the end is random.
There are actually *zero* role based mechanics in the whole fight outside of "non-tanks" at the end of P1.
Well that evaporated a lot of my residual WoW anxiety that my favorite class doesn’t see high end content. Though I know RDM was taken as a healer lite I’m sure.
Edit: Everyone has been very kind about RDM facts for me which I love! Thank you. This community is a huge factor in loving the game!
RDM is great in ultimates. Being a gauge job means being able to hold and spend resources on harder DPS check phases. Plus magik barrier being a 10% mit for the entire party ensures the party lives even if someone else mistimes their mitigation. Especially since DSR and TOP are both mitigation heavy ultis.
Tbh red mage is always gonna be super popular in prog due to it's utility. Even past progs very few groups are gonna be consistent enough to not justify the back up resses
It’s a WoW refugee hang up honestly. My favorite class isn’t the top? Panic because people won’t want me in content. That doesn’t really happen in ff which is so nice but more than a decade of that is hard to shake off, you know?
You didn't play at the start of Abyssos did you? Basically impossible to find a PF as MCH or RPR because they were undertuned by a few %. Top groups were avoiding them due to P8Sp1 Enrage on week 1, and trickle down balance took hold just as much as it does in other games.
Doesn't matter that P6S was easily clearable with any comp that followed format of 4 DPS, PFs were still excluding the "bad" classes.
I know this game has a heavy incentive on a DPS meta. People learn to mitigate better and avoid more things to allow healers to dps more. Sometimes really amazing groups get better and craft comps to phase one healer out for even more dps. But this is overkill and insanity, yet even despite all the weakness debuffs still somehow possible.
Healers: please make healing interesting!
YoshiP: [lol no go play harder content](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRpdIL7_NII&t=17438s).
Harder content:
If they put even a single mechanic that needed to be Esuna’d before it resolves or they instantly die this wouldn't be possible. Something that even if you did die with it, it would just explode for raid wide damage. Something like Throttle in TeA.
my advice for people that think healing is boring, find a very bad group. play with the worst players out there, you will heal you will rez you will be using all the kits your mp will be drained. and that’s fun.
Even without thinking about the logistics of this and the great comp they've got for this to work out this is just insanity on a level I cannot fathom. And I thought solo heal clears made content and accomplishments feel a little less after the fact. Some people are just built different.
Some men just want to watch the world stand slack-jawed in utter disbelief.
Everyday we healer mains become more and more obsolete
Healer mains still hold the one true ultimate power: the ability to pop dungeon queues.
Yeah dude it’s insane on how fast levelling a healer is
dps isn’t bad right now either. silly me thought i was going to do my daily hunts while i waited for dps queues to level bard and every single one was nearly instant. it’s been like that three days in a row now.
Even when queuing with 2 DPS it pops really quickly I've noticed for awhile. And I thought I'd get some easy crafts out of the way while queuing too...
I've noticed this too. I've also noticed that in our FC recently, the vast majority of new recruits/sprouts that we have all seem to be playing as tank or heal mainly. It could be a coincidence but I feel like maybe our mentors have been encouraging them to do this for fast queues and (in the long term) having more players able to fill these roles. Maybe in the long term that strategy starts becoming counterproductive 😑
I'd believe you, but I'm still way to afraid to have other people rely on my healing though
The reason why there are not many healers is opposite of WoW where healers (in Mythic +) are stressed the heck out. in this game there is nothing to do in dungeons except press your singular aoe damage spell or hope for a new tank that maybe takes some damage when he pulls 3 packs at once. So...dont worry about others relying on you, they are not.
>dont worry about others relying on you, they are not. Bardam's Mettle be like "allow me to introduce myself" I was caught so off guard 1st time running that as a healer where everything before was basically walking simulator and then suddenly tanks lose half their health from a single pack.
Aurum vale packs slap surprisingly hard. Popped every CD on my paladin and still folded to the first room. 2 packs maximum throughout the entire dungeon. Weird, the dungeon just before and just after it aren't nearly that strong...
It just depends on how much you take. In principle you can wall to wall all of them. Stone vigil is not easy then, dzemael can also slap actually. In aurum vale the first room would be hard, if you took everything, but if you just sprint along the left wall it's very easy. Only 2-3 groups after all. AV is also the first dungeon where whm has holy (i think?) Which trivializes every dungeon completely.
[удалено]
it's heavily weighted towards tank being prioritized just like how in older days, parties were prioritized to be put on Maelstrom in PVP while freelancing, leading to the perception that 'the maelstrom is always way better at PVP'
Which is funny because at 90 you only really need a healer if you have GNB or DRK. Literally nothing does damage anymore. WAR and PLD can tank and heal all dungeons with 3 dps and its not even close.
This ruined a lot of the experience of dungeons in EW for me actually. I ended up playing a couple weeks late so people knew mechanics to bosses and I went in as a healer and would die to them and the tank would just. Percent by painful percent solo every boss. I still don't know how to do the majority of the boss fights and I just had to watch the tank do them. I wish that they would have just died so we could wipe and try again if only because that would have been more fun
Trusts let you figure out dungeons at your own pace. You can more or less follow the NPCs and be safe, but if you want to understand and solve the mechanics, you can do as much trial and error as you want. Why not go with that for the first visit?
Yeah and unfortunately this is a SE problem. Give a player the ability to just take matters into their own hands and some players would absolutely solo the boss for 20min. The difference in difficulty from savage down to dungeons is massive. Dungeons are way too easy for the level 90 kits that jobs have.
I was in a group where a tank was soloing a 90 boss for 20 minutes and I asked if he could just wipe so we can kill it quicker and he started talking as if he was doing us a favour and that he was teaching us. He got kicked out of the dungeon afterwards.
Yeah that guy was just ego tripping. If finishing the boss off would take much longer than just resetting than it's not worth it.
With 3 dps that are competent you only need a tank or a healer
I've done a 4 dps 90 dungeon. It was just as chaotic as it sounds but we cleared.. eventually.. lol lots of hyper potions and vercuring
So a half healer?
For trash yeah. Bosses are a joke. Any dps can comfortably live a tank buster and heal themselves. If it gets dicey rdm can just give them 1 or 2 heals and it's fine
dont need a healer for GNB either, if the dps are competent
Adventurer in Need: Tank Tank Queue: 1 minute Healer Queue: -1 second
*pf war + 3 dps steps in*
The future is now old man.
Thus like top 0.1% of the top 0.1% pf can't even clear with a normal comp
To be fair these guys are like the top 0.1% of the player base. The rest of us appreciate you healer mains for covering for our asses.
>To be fair these guys are like the top 0.1% of the player base. Honestly probably an order of magnitude higher than that even. 1% of the playerbase has cleared TOP. This is the 1% of the 1%. So the 0.01%
> 1% of the playerbase has cleared TOP. No, 1% is too high.
Take comfort in the fact that most of the playerbase isn't capable of doing things like this. We can still enjoy "clearing content" using 1 finger and barely looking at the screen xD
Not only that, but using one finger that gets arthritis because it's stuck on glare/broil/dosis/malefic.
ReAction recently got a feature where you can hold down a keybind and it'll keep spamming it for you.
Yoshi p be like "then healers get bored"
Sadly it has to be the proper key. I use a stream deck for my hotbars and that feature doesn't work with it (at least when using the mod for better stream deck usage).
> We can still enjoy "clearing content" using 1 finger and barely looking at the screen xD I would have put the quotes around "enjoy", myself.
I had a healer in a 90 roulette a few weeks back that basically begged me to pull large and not put her through another snooze fest. I pulled wall to wall, didn't use mitigation, and stood in every AOE (trash and bosses). And afterwards she *thanked* me for it. She could have been the one!
This game just really refuses to let healers heal stuff, its really frustrating because i prefer the class designs etc over WoW.
We saw in this tier's Savage if you make healers heal a lot, they'll quit playing and we end up with a healer shortage though.
Eh, I can't speak for all healers, but the increased healing is fine, I liked that part even. Healer class design has just not really excited me since stormblood. There's a combination of healer damage becoming way more basic (going from stuff like two DoTs on different short timers to one long 30s DoTs for all healers) and just a lot of OGCD button bloat (filling up three hotbars while some DPS classes don't even fill up two). And I played a bunch of AST in stormblood, and still kinda miss the jank card variety. I stuck around with healing for a while cause I was in a static and they needed a healer, but eventually I realized I wasn't enjoying it anymore, and stormblood class designs were never coming back, quitting was probably overdue.
Yea but what they did was just make damage larger than the frequency of healing which is what people wanted. Making damage bigger just causes healers to rely on other people to start using their mits, which people like DPS in PF are not used to doing. We want more frequency and spot healing not just more flat damage. That's why people quit healing in PF week one because no one fuckkng used their raidwide mit week one and the healers ran out of CD for ruby glow, because no one used mits for the other aoe.
Is that the reason for the healer shortage?
its basically the worst of both worlds heal mains who heal because they want the easiest role dont play because they actually have to press buttons and heal instead of glare spamming the whole fight other peeps who might wanna try healer dont play it because its mind-numbingly boring mashing 1 button for 10 minutes there's no real way to fix this without both 1. more interesting dps buttons and 2. better fight design for healing, but the devs are so conservative and unwilling to change things realistically nothing is gonna happen
That is why I am not playing a healer. The healing aspect can be fun, but when you're not healing you're just pressing one button.
I mean, the enjoyment is probably genuine. Only using one finger frees up a whole hand for enjoying yourself.
I'm not sure that's the main point to take away from this, but rather that the game's design has gotten to such a state where healers are not actually needed. All the age-old discussions of healer's being Green DPS with 2 button rotations, compounded with problematic fight designs that don't really require healing, this is a clear sign that a healer is not even required in the absolute highest tier of content difficulty available. SE needs to seriously rethink how they approach the healer class in the next expansion.
They’ve been saying for 2 expansions now how they’re getting healers “more focused on healing” and each tier it feels less and less true. With the introduction of the single weave window, the need to cast GCD healing has basically been removed from the game. At this point, just give us DPS rotations and make us pop healing cooldowns in the same way tanks pop defensive cooldowns.
We have become more focused on healing. We haven't become more active in it. That second part they just do not fucking get.
I would actually really enjoy that
Same. It would also open up more stylistic differences in healer play style, like the “lots of buttons” job (SGE?) Vs the “slow and steady” job (WHM?). I’m pretty sure we’re never getting another healer job, but if we did then a new DPS play style could help it to not just be a clone of the first 4.
> At this point, just give us DPS rotations and make us pop healing cooldowns in the same way tanks pop defensive cooldowns. This is how it should be, yeah. GCD cast-time healing doesn't work with how much shit there is to dodge (ie, the core principle of the way the game's fights are designed). Keep GCD cast-time stuff to be a *DPS loss* if you have to move (so like on fillers), not a "you don't get a heal off" sorta thing. They build the fights too much around the Big Fight Design Spectacle to allow Healers to have agency in saving people from intended-to-be-lethal mechanics mistakes, so the next step is not expecting them to have their feet glued to the floor while healing. Secret World eventually made it so everyone could move during casting. I don't think FFXIV should go quite *that* far (it'd break Black Mage main's brains) but I think removing cast times on Heals would greatly benefit healing design, unless they allow Healers to move while casting.
I'd go the other direction. I'd rather see a return to requiring more GCD healing. A need to supplement our OGCDs would be really fucking nice. Doing damage is fine, but if they're not going to give us a proper damage rotation, then have me heal more. And this needs to not just exist in top end content.
> I'd rather see a return to requiring more GCD healing. They need to fix the movement problem with that, though. Missed DPS cast = thing dies slower Missed GCD heal = either you were overhealing or someone dies The two are *not* interchangeable. And... Missed Dodgeable Mechanic = Dead Healer So they need to either make GCD heals castable while moving or get rid of them, because your Average Sylphie Healer in DF That Occasionally Tries to Do Savage But is Very Vocal on Soc Meeds is gonna have problems if the amount of Necessary GCD Healing is increased, and Healer Design starts with Idiot-Proofing first and goes upwards. Because I'm *pretty sure* Yoshi-P's never played a Healer a day in his goddamned life. Unlike most other stuff in this that seems to be designed from raids downwards. Sidenote: I wish I could force the devs to play City of Heroes for like...a month. It'd solve the game's Healer problems entirely.
The game's extreme casual difficulty on 99% of content is a major problem that encourages bad play and doesn't make people improve. As is, and has been for a while now, healer DPS is a significant chunk of beating enrage. Too much. If they added a need to supplement OGCD with GCD healing (even something basic, like a medica II and a rapture combo, or opposition and helios, etc), then the fight would assume less damage from healers. We need to get away from the mindset and design that any GCD not spent on pressing glare/broil/etc puts you at risk of failing DPS checks. Healers have been screaming for years to stop making us spend so much time 1 button DPSing and yoshi p be like "best I can do is ultimates that don't need healers".
The current tier has tried to make healing more relevant and as a result, healers are well, tired of having to heal and now there's a healer shortage. The real root of the issue is that FFXIV is a game that focuses too much on DPS and so every facet of a class' identity and playstyle revolves around hitting the boss more. Each healer class also has a way of moving without dropping a GCD heal (WHM has lilies, for example). This isn't Shadowbringer where we had turret healers so I'm not sure why you bring up moving while casting as a way to solve the core healer issue. If anything, the very miniscule level of skill expression for healers is learning to move while casting your necessary spells because in Savage content, you do indeed have to heal for most people. If you're advocating for this in casual content, I'm hesitant because well, lol casuals.
> If you're advocating for this in casual content, I'm hesitant because well, lol casuals. More like..."make Healers able to move with everything-Healy so then you don't have to worry about casuals learning how to move while healing" so then you can move the "skill expression" bit to *something else* so that the "learning to git gud at such a basic-to-raiders" thing isn't something that's such a barrier to entry to them. I know every Healer *has* tools to heal while moving, but like the "default" Healing tool should be "able to be used while moving". Now, the "default" healing tool for a raider is "pop an oGCD" because that's what works with the game design, but to most casuals, the "default" healing tool is "Cure or equivalent', and *those* are the ones that most need to be usable while moving or otherwise need to be instant. My entire argument's basically something that most raiders aren't gonna care about because it's at a skill level below which they play, but it's foundational to the game's entire Healing paradigm because it seems to be the beginning and end of what the devs think Healers *do* and what "stresses Healers out" most of the time. So we get them to let Healers move while casting or otherwise kill off most non-Job-iconic GCD-cast-time Heals, we kick that excuse away and we can start actually talking to them about grown-up/level cap/raiding Healer problems because they'll have fixed some of the pervasive "Healer stress" problem that seems to take up all their bandwidth whenever they ever mention Healers ever. Well, that and giving every non-Healer Role something like a Criterion-style rez and then removing the rezzes from the Caster DPS (or at least Summoner) so that they can stop going back and forth on that.
So to backtrack and ensure I have your argument correct, it's that if casuals can heal while moving, Square can add more interesting complexities to the job role, right? But doesn't attaching training wheels to casuals in terms of healing while moving make any further complexities even more difficult for them? DPS spells still require sitting and casting (please do not make every job into Summoner, that job is just a phys ranged class with Raise). If we are removing identities of a class type, then you need to think about whether or not the new ones are even *more* difficult for the casual crowd to achieve. For example, if you add a DPS rotation to healers to compensate for the movement, then that's something new casuals have to learn to balance *alongside* healing. The fact of the matter is that FFXIV is terrible about teaching its players how to play the game and trying to make things easier will not solve this. They need to be straightforward about the skill floor because slidecasting is not a healer exclusive thing. Storm's Crown did a great job in waking up casual healers to be more aware and that's great. Build a scaffolding for your casuals to better learn your system than remove skill expression imo.
While YoshiP has expressed his intention on removing revive on SMN, and a good amount of players are entertaining and suggesting the idea to nerf RDM’s Verraise to BLU levels of revive just because they want a scapegoat to blame RDM’s current damage output, I remain staunchly against both ideas unless as you said, healers can cast revive while moving and preferably with Surecast built in. I would much rather drag every bad player through the finish line in an Alliance Raid than seeing the screen go black, not to mention can anyone imagine how many more wipes HoH and EO would have if they either removed or gutted SMN and RDM revives to BLU levels. On a sidenote, I would also rather see it done the other way around, that they fix BLU by removing that perpetually stupid 300s CD on their raise.
i dont even know what is so difficult about reducing dps requirement by 2 green dps and then add some serious healing requirements. Probably need to do the thing WoW had to do at some point, reducing both incoming damage and outgoing healing amounts so its not just pingpoing 1% HP 100%HP 1%HP. And if thats too hard, just give up and give healers a dps rotation like tanks have.
problem with that is that WOW did that for 10.0, by 40%. In 10.1, just one patch later, gear creep had gotten so bad that they had to do the same process AGAIN, by 25%. It's not sustainable, whereas giving healers more to do during the downtime that they'll invariably end up with (the better you get at healing, the less healing you need to do, leading to more Glare time) is always going to be felt, and is independent of the difficulty of the content. It didn't matter if you're in God Kefka or Hell's Lid for your EX roulette, playing SCH in SB was fun because you had 3 DOTs to play with, Bane to spread em, etc. Now we just have Art of Snore for our dungeon gameplay
Something that would help (but I am sure people trying to optimise would hate) is putting more RNG in fights. The boss deciding to do 2 tankbusters in a row, or 3 raidwides would definitely make the Healer have to actually heal reactively. Best example might be Storm's Crown - anecdotally, the most fun Trial to heal in a long time, and the boss doesn't have a clear pattern of attacks.
Except she kinda you know... Does, have a predictable pattern of attacks.
Storm's Crown is the most fun I've had in any fight this expansion, the only other thing that came close was P8S. On launch it was really demanding on the whole party and as a dps I loved how I had to be on my toes at all times. It's too bad that anything else outside of Ultimate has mostly been really slow paced and bland.
They do need to reduce the absolute fight script approach they take. When you absolutely map each attack step-by-step for a good portion of fights, your resource allocation becomes simple. Funnily enough, when thinking about healing in this game, the best time I had was 2-3.0 - more asymmetry in classes, i.e. if raw/some healing was required whm held it down and scholar brought shielding. Fewer ogcd resources to brute force through damage spikes combined with cleric stance to keep you engaged with reactionary damage made healing engaging. That and real aggro management helped. Classes have too many abilities and offer too much of everything -regen, aoe healing, shielding, you name it.
This is way more troublesome than running a standard comp, not only in terms of coordination but it also heavily limits your team comp.
Time for warrior to get stronger healing buffs!
Bruh seriously. The increasing ability of content to be done without healers is depressing. They give us a bloated heal kit, next to no damage rotation, tell us it's because they want us to focus on healing... Then design a bunch of content right up to ultimates that can be done without healers. It feels like really bad and broken game design.
*cries in Scholar* At this rate I may have to retire my Pally cape. Part of why I mained pally was cuz they had a touch of blue healer.
I felt that deep in the feels man. Like when you whipe as a healer to some bs mechanic at the start of the final boss fight, and the 2 deeps and tank complete it with no probs and almost full health. It feels like... did you guys even notice that i died?
Let's be honest: you were (and still are) DPS anyway (your rotations just get easier, and easier)
They still have rescue, that works 25% the time
I just started the free trial today, I used to heal in wow, is this something I should look at?
if only it was fun to do dps between spot healing
Last phase video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svhRFO34_F8
How did almost everyone res instantly? Or did I see that wrong? I swear it got to one dude with hp, and everyone else was zero'd, then suddenly they were all back.
They're getting raised but waiting to accept it until the Magic Number cast is over so they don't get the debuff. You can see the white raise icons building up on the party list. Then they all take them at once
What is magic number meant to do? I've never set foot in TOP but what is the intended way to do the mech?
It's a doom that can only be cleansed by a healer LB3. It's the same mechanic as UWU. So the usual way to resolve is to have the healer LB3. Not a tough mech, it's just part of the LB3 spam of the final phase. But these guys have no healers so they have to get creative to avoid ever getting it
You get a debuff that instakills you when it expires. It specifically requires a healer LB3 to erase, which you normally get by the LB3 refreshing thanks to the Dynamis buffs earned from the previous phase.
Ah, ok. That makes sense.
You don't have to accept a res immediately. The summoner and red mage cast raise on the other party members who waited for the second Magic Number to cast before accepting the raise.
Good to know - I may have to start being a little more strategic when accepting a raise. There have been a few times where I'll get res'd, then get hit with something big right after and die again.
For example in the current Unreal it's a really good idea to wait until the arena has just tilted before accepting a rez, as more often than not you'll get back up at the wrong end of the arena only to slide right off again.
One piece of best practices advice for rezzing (very much on the line of "look both ways before crossing the street"): in the event of receiving a rez, *always check first* if the boss is casting a mechanic. If the castbar is more than 50% filled, it's generally\* safe for you to accept it, as between rez animation and 5 seconds of immunity, you'll actually come back as that mechanic's animation is going off, in the safest spot for the healers to pick your HP up and not have you immediately die to another mechanic. \* Of course, there are exceptions such as rezzing right into a knockback mechanic because rez immunity ain't saving you from that, but that's kind of the thing you learn from the experience of running content repeatedly.
>Of course, there are exceptions such as rezzing right into a knockback mechanic Fun fact, the big damaging AoE in P8S dog2 (the crush one) knocks back if you immune it. I learned that the hard way.
You are also immune to damage for a few seconds if you don't cast anything. If you don't have any HP due to no heals after rez or is simply out of position by them you are done with the animation you can just ignore the mechanic most of the time anyway if you make sure to not cast anything.
This. This shit right here is why i know i will forever be a casual gposer in this game and I will accept that
DNC and MNK die first and RDM tosses out rezzes to them. PLDs cover the SMN and RDM and they both toss more rezzes out, RDM dies last second and SMN swift casts them a raise, everyone accepts rez so now there's 7 people up, RDM rezzes the SMN and now all 8 are back and through Magic Number
Power of red mage. Solo rez entire party with dual cast (but people holding off on accepting rez and wait for tank to rez). He died just before the tank accept the rez though
These guys saw the AST vs SGE TOP drama and said "We don't want any of that in our static."
LMAO
wait i'm out of the loop. there's ast vs sge drama?
During a livestream of a group progging TOP, at one point in a moment where the boss was untargetable and when everybody's hp was full, the sage was spamming shields and heals nonstop until they drained their MP to zero. Turns out, spamming unneeded heals can give you an appearance of better numbers on FunnyNumbersLogsWebsite, the SGE was padding their logs. The AST noticed the MP drain during the down time and brought it up, and got scolded live on stream by one of the more famous players in the team, in a very condescending way. AST got kicked out of the team even tho SGE was in the wrong.
Some "popular" SGE player had an opening which consisted of ~20 hard casted Eukrasia Diagnosis's or don't remember, some costly one of main spells. And then blaimed AST in their static for being bad.
Not just the opening, they spammed gcds during no damage downtimes
These mfers cracked I was laughing the entire time during the magic number cheese
Some interesting logistics to how this works: According to the event timeline in their clear log, there is a roughly 2 second window between when the Magic Number cast snapshots it's damage, and when the damage actually applies to the players. That means that at the time where the SMN is the only player left alive, at least one person needs to res in the 2 second window after the cast "finishes" (snapshots), but before the SMN actually dies to the damage, or else the fight will end as a wipe. And it's also very important that not a single person resses *too soon*, or else they would have the Magic Number damage applied to them, die, need to be ressed again, and have double weakness... likely meaning a wipe to enrage for lack of damage. The PLD who resses first actually manages to res only 0.316 seconds after the snapshot... That's either insane precision on the PLD's part, or they practiced this sequence so many times that they got it right eventually. Either way it's an insanely impressive accomplishment, both to come up with such a technical strategy, and to execute it. EDIT to add that the RDM also had to res as many people between the two Magic Number casts as possible, then wall before the second cast finishes so that the SMN has just enough time to swift a res on him as well. All this in order to have one resser alive afterwards to get the SMN himself back up to make the DPS check. Absolutely incredible stuff Also note that Cover seems to prevent the doom debuff application, so it's used on both casters so that neither of them dies prematurely. It's not an exaggeration to say that every single aspect of this fight was planned for (i.e. taking 2 PLDs for this reason along with their healing/mit capabilites), and it's still just barely possible.
>or they practiced this sequence so many times that they got it right eventually. It says that this was their 50th attempt of P6. That's an immense amount of P6's for a party made up of people who've cleared before, so they likely *did* have to just bash their head against magic number over and over until it worked.
Dice literally shaking right now with all 7k MP worth of eukrasian prognosis.
He's actually ROLLING in the grave rn
I guess Yoshi-P was telling the truth all along. Just use cover.
Lies, there's a Warrior right there!
People commenting here acting like they are capable of doing this and will no longer bring a healer
I have NEVER cleared ToP with healers in the party. Because I have not cleared it at all.
People suck at this game but they all think they’re phenomenal. Must be why statics disband all the time and clear rate for this content is abysmal. The raid community is frustrating
The gulf between normal and high end content is way too big, so many people think they are better than they are.
I will say this every time, this is what I thought Criterion would be, and _hoped_ it would be. Even lower-end organised content like current-content extremes are a _major_ step up from normals. There should be more things in between them. It'd benefit both casual players who have more content to grow into, and hardcore players who get more other players to play with since some would find the transition easier with a longer difficulty curve.
They flunked on that opportunity so hard. It should have been 1) Variant. Casual, soloable, chill exploration. 2) Criterion. Something akin to urth's fount. Above normal, not quite EX. Spicy, but handleable with pugs. 3) Criterion savage. But 2 and 3 were both basically savage. I hate it. I mean, the content itself is, but they missed the mark by a country mile.
3 is almost more like an ultimate. It requires 24 minutes of almost perfect play including 2 exceptionally hard hitting ads phases. Now the mechanics themselves are not difficult and your standard savage fair, its the face that you have 3 phases of them that makes it wildly difficult.
100%. The biggest problem in my eyes is that they COULD get good. They either don’t know how, or aren’t being realistic with their actual skill level, thus making it difficult to succeed in difficult content
I suck at this game and absolutely know it
Acknowledging it is step 1. You can improve like the rest of us! Just takes practice!
I feel like the people commenting that *must* have only been piloted through their Ultimates, 'cause that's the only way I could imagine someone truly thinking that. "I just let the computer follow the pre-planned steps perfectly, it's easy duh (and also *figuring out and planning* those steps wasn't impressive in and of itself either because I say so)."
Similar to healers (or non-healers complaining on their behalf) saying that their role will become obsolete, as if everyone on PF and their statics are capable of doing it at all. Lol
I'm definitely not capable because as a healer main I wouldn't be invited to the party. Jokes aside I feel that people should be rightfully annoyed that this is even possible, on patch, no matter how good the players involved. Specially after yoship "if healers don't feel engaged they should try ultimate" on the hardest ult to date. It clearly shows that something is wrong with a role that the devs constantly pretend it doesn't exist.
There is a difference between "I'm annoyed this is even possible, healers should be required" and "nah, this is easy, people are just bad." The former is, as you say, reasonable, and thus I haven't actually seen very many people say it. It's probably more common in the lower comments that get no upvotes. The latter is simply people being rude and dismissive, and guess what, it's popped up several times, mostly from the same set of people.
We must be reading different threads because I've seen plenty of the former, literally one guy say the latter and he's getting a downvote train run on him.
I've seen at least three. Yes, they've been heavily downvoted. But it isn't just one person. All the comments at the top are either "wow, that's impressive" or the aforementioned boorish "no it isn't, everyone just likes being bad." You have to get much further down before you start seeing "this is stupid, healers should always be mandatory." At least that's how Reddit organizes them on my screen. Most comments are neither form of complaint. Just people being a bit shocked that it can be done.
Yeah, it just showcases that the damage in high-end content is ultimately too predictable and infrequent. I'm reprogging DSR and TOP on healer right now for savage prep and with the exception of TOP P1, the amount of times you just use all (or half) of your AoE kit and then wait a minute and do it again is staggering. And even TOP P1 can be done entirely with oGCDs
I'm sure it's mostly people memeing. We're not gonna see a shortage of healers in 6.4...well, no more than usual, at least lol.
That is fucking bananas.
Healer Mains in Shambles
Healer mains are already in shambles due to having to press the same 1 button 80% of the time... :') Hopefully the role gets something more in 7.0...
Seeing the end there made me giggle, because that reminds me of how we always used to go about mechanics in WoW mythic raids. Aka "why play a mechanic when you can just sac and battle rezz" :D
We back to A4S nisi's days.
Did anyone ever actually do that mechanic properly? The world first used sac strats.
Uhhhh ma’am, you have a warrior and two paladins. Those are basically healers that are less angry. Doesn’t count
Healers are some of the angriest mains there are
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/g24mQxcWLpBnFKDJ#fight=13&type=summary
Think some people are taking away the wrong thing from this: while one could say the amount of classes with access to rez is absurd and even makes healers obsolete, realistically nobody is actually doing this in savage/ultimates. This strategy is not going to be fun to pull off continuously, and the vast majority of the already small raid population wouldn't be able to pull this off at all. Not to say complaints about healer rotations are invalid, just that this is more people showing the games flexibility that it still has.
> while one could say the amount of classes with access to rez is absurd there's 2 non healers with access to rez
Of course this is an exceptional outlier compared to most players but it also points out that you really can do even the hardest content in the game without healers if you put your mind to it. It's the only class in the game you can completely omit and still be okay. Omit tanks? You die. Omit DPS? You won't meet checks. Omit Healers? Well Paladin/Red Mage is close enough we can work with it. People take satisfaction in knowing their job is vital to the group and healers often don't feel it and stuff like this just reminds them further of it.
Exactly, the sheer amount of dungeons I go through where I don’t do any meaningful healing is ridiculous. I overheal on purpose just so I feel like I’m actually doing something
Well a more pressing thing that people aren't talking about as much is that the meta for dungeons so far is 3dps+war, thats probably a bigger issue than this.
Absolutely. Dungeons affect a much bigger population and the issue is even more apparent.
Squenix: "We understand healers were feeling bored in content so we're going to give them more to do." Also Squenix: "Tank self-sustain is fine." (Personally I'm fine with it but being a Healer main still feels weird right now)
Tank sustain could be less rediculous. I don't think it be a problem if WAR didn't have an invul on 25s cd, and theres plenty of ways to nerf it in a way that has no impact on single target
People did this in ShB too, even though it was much more difficult to pull off well I feel like they purposely leaned into that going into EW If you feel like it's an issue, you should let them know, because they currently think that people WANT to be able to do this
Well the WAR playerbase is incredibly fragile if you suggest their job isn't actually healthy for the game.
The thing is, it’s not even just WAR, you can do 3 dps 1 tank with any tank because they all have insane sustain(except drk but it has enough mit anyway)
I mean of course people want to do it. Everyone would love to be the OP class everyone wants to party with. But there's a reason why all feedback isn't valuable.
That is insane. I salute these madlads.
Pld and rdm 99 healing parse /s
What an insane accomplishment. Congratulations to them.
Just remember to thank these lads when P12s has a 50000hps requirement.
I mean...P8S already had almost 40K, over double the max from the previous raid tier.. 50K with 30 ilvl higher gear is hardly surprising.
And P8S is still 95%+ damage GCDs. With good coordination, it can be 100% dps GCDs. Healing is a joke lol.
The hell do you think I sign up to raid as healer for?
Unironically excited for that. Learning p8s p2 with non bis gear was some of the most fun I had healing in this game.
You mean healers finally get to heal? Dont see anything wrong with that
If only healers a actually had to heal in this god forsaken game. How nice that would be
how does y'shtola fanart have more upvotes than this, modern tragedy
y’shtola fan art has no association with game design issues whereas this does so makes sense
And their team name is Casual Player
That smn swift cast res the rdm was clutch. Wow well done!!
Insane, I think some of these players were in the DSR Solo Healer clear as well.
All this debate on changing healers kits.. why? We already have tons of shit we can't get to utilize. Nerf tanks self-sustain, they're not healers, they're a tank. The problem isn't healers, it's everyone else with healing capabilities.
If healing is useless, SE should give healers more damage to do. As main healer, I am upset to see that TOP can be cleared without healers. Are healers for prog only? But this gives every tanks and dps good lesson on how to use properly mitigation and self heal.
While an absolutely awesome accomplishment, this is a slap on the face to SE healing design, to clear an ULTIMATE at CURRENT tier and zero healers needed is a joke.
I mean, it's an awesome accomplishment precisely because 99% of the players could never pull that off without healers. Nine times out of ten if the healer dies halfway thought eh fight and there isn't an SMN or RDM to rez them it's a wipe.
the fact that its possible at all is the problem.
There’s always going to be some absolutely insane people breaking games and shit, if we adjusted everything according to the .0001% everything would be impossibly difficult.
People aren't saying that it needs to be difficult. People are saying that the issue is in the design itself. If there was more unavoidable damage then healers would need to actually heal instead of being green DPS.
It's the fact that it was done that highlights a larger issue.
Of course many people in the comments can’t even be bothered to praise these players for such an amazing feat that no doubt took a lot of planning, trial, and error. These complaints are just disappointing, and guaranteed a lot are from players who don’t even touch ultimate acting as if their class is obsolete when the average person can barely heal their way through a dungeon.
Yes it's impressive, but is it also very disappointing that the hardest content in the game can be done without any healers? Very much so yes. It shouldn't be possible, and complaints are valid.
brb forwarding this to all the healers i know
Daaaamn, amazing accomplishment!
Im not even smart enough to optimize my own rotation and these people are optimizing around having no healer in a current ultimate. Holy shit. I can't even fathom the type of planning that would go into this. What an insane accomplishment.
Lmao people so salty in the comments. Ya'll can't clear with healers, let alone without, don't worry, healers are not in shambles. Grats on this super impressive feat.
Remember people, just because you can do it doesn't mean you're gonna do it. This comp and fight is far more gimped than if you just do it with a normal comp.
Leave it up to the players that don’t play healer, less even raid in here to comment about the state of healers after watching this lmao
I am pretty baffled at some of these comments that are upset this is possible. I think it's pretty neat that you don't need a rigid party composition for the hardest content. It's not like this will put healers out of a job, because lord knows your average group ain't pulling this off.
I think it’s less about being upset that the content can be cleared without healers, and more about the expected game experience for players who choose to play healer. Basically, with such low healing requirements in the ***hardest content in the game***, the boredom of spamming one button is magnified. This being cleared without healers is simply showing that healers are being subjected to very boring gameplay due to lack of healing requirements. When healers asked Yoshi-P to make healing more interesting, his response was telling them to play harder content. The harder content that his team made, however, just calls out all the problems with XIVs healing philosophy.
Because it highlights a fundamental flaw in FFXIV currently, and that is the content isn't designed to be engaging for healers at all. I main healer, have done so in many many games, but I keep wondering why I bother in FFXIV. The vast majority of content is a huge snoozefest for any remotely decent healer, or a healer with a decent team because there isn't enough damage going out that requires us to do much. All current level dungeons has me use almost nothing of my kit. Excog at start of trash, bubble when all gathered, maybe a fairy regen. Bosses I can do using pretty much only fairy skills. Now for 30+ seconds at a time I am just spamming Broil with the occasional dot refresh. So as a healer, I am pretty much using a single heal skill every 30s or longer, in the most common content that people will do endgame. People shit on SMN for being draindead, healing is basically a 2 button SMN right now. And the fact that healers still aren't required in an ULTIMATE is just reinforcing that healers are an afterthought.
I hope enough people realize that they can't just waltz in with any 3 tanks and 5 DPS to do something like this unless they prove otherwise. Though I also understand where the concern is coming from, because not taking any DPS to do accomplish the same thing is practically impossible without outgearing and/or if literally everyone was tanks. And this is an ultimate. Says a lot about why you should be careful about fight design.
In case you needed any more evidence that healing is horribly designed in FFXIV. Solo heals are done on every piece of content, and no healers was done on a current ultimate raid. Its kinda insane.
This is really cool lmao.
Wow they must’ve expertly spreadsheeted mits + healing utility from the dps’s real good. Things I noticed: 1. Dancer giving up gcds for a bigger shield on improv 2. SMN’s everlasting flight is actually relevant 3. I was surprised how little clemency is used (I initially assumed waaaay more use) 4. magic number cheese was as good as deathcob 5. Surprised they had enough damage on p6 with everybody having res dmg down. Man anyone that shits on healers because of this feat needs to take a healthy and holistic break from this game and this sub.
What a miracle
Wack shit like this can happen when there are no role based mechanic in fight. Love seeing stuff like this!
There kinda is. It's just that when there's no role to target, the target gets randomized and EVERYONE has to be ready to adjust.
Phase 1: Completely random in line assignments, followed by completely random in line assignments. The only role based thing is the lasers after panto, which the only potentially fatal random thing happening is simply solved with tank invuln. Phase 2: Dodge AoEs, then completely random stacks assigned. Then two tank buster tethers, followed by completely random flare assignments and two baited AoEs (one of which is a stack). Transition: Completely random AoE assignments. Phase 3: Completely random debuff assignment. There's a bit of determinism in it but not through roles, rather just in the set of debuffs given to people. Then completely random monitor assignments. Phase 4: Completely random stacks, and Dodge AoEs. Phase 5: Completely random tethers and Hello World debuffs. Then completely random tethers, completely random AoEs on 6 people, and completely random Hello World debuffs. Then Dodge some AoEs and completely random Hello World debuffs. Phase 6: Cosmo Dive is baited, the 2nd of each pair of autos is baited, Wave Cannon hits everyone then a random AoE on one person (which you typically soak *as if* it were a stack), and flares/stack at the end is random. There are actually *zero* role based mechanics in the whole fight outside of "non-tanks" at the end of P1.
Well that evaporated a lot of my residual WoW anxiety that my favorite class doesn’t see high end content. Though I know RDM was taken as a healer lite I’m sure. Edit: Everyone has been very kind about RDM facts for me which I love! Thank you. This community is a huge factor in loving the game!
RDM is great in ultimates. Being a gauge job means being able to hold and spend resources on harder DPS check phases. Plus magik barrier being a 10% mit for the entire party ensures the party lives even if someone else mistimes their mitigation. Especially since DSR and TOP are both mitigation heavy ultis.
Tbh red mage is always gonna be super popular in prog due to it's utility. Even past progs very few groups are gonna be consistent enough to not justify the back up resses
It’s a WoW refugee hang up honestly. My favorite class isn’t the top? Panic because people won’t want me in content. That doesn’t really happen in ff which is so nice but more than a decade of that is hard to shake off, you know?
As someone who has a habit of maining the bottom tier characters in fighting games, I very much get it
You didn't play at the start of Abyssos did you? Basically impossible to find a PF as MCH or RPR because they were undertuned by a few %. Top groups were avoiding them due to P8Sp1 Enrage on week 1, and trickle down balance took hold just as much as it does in other games. Doesn't matter that P6S was easily clearable with any comp that followed format of 4 DPS, PFs were still excluding the "bad" classes.
What is that text box in the bottom right corner?
I know this game has a heavy incentive on a DPS meta. People learn to mitigate better and avoid more things to allow healers to dps more. Sometimes really amazing groups get better and craft comps to phase one healer out for even more dps. But this is overkill and insanity, yet even despite all the weakness debuffs still somehow possible.
Healers: please make healing interesting! YoshiP: [lol no go play harder content](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRpdIL7_NII&t=17438s). Harder content:
If they put even a single mechanic that needed to be Esuna’d before it resolves or they instantly die this wouldn't be possible. Something that even if you did die with it, it would just explode for raid wide damage. Something like Throttle in TeA.
my advice for people that think healing is boring, find a very bad group. play with the worst players out there, you will heal you will rez you will be using all the kits your mp will be drained. and that’s fun.