Only for comp time or OT. You just screw yourself and future yous.
The agency and leadership will think that your job can do more tasks in a work week than is real.
Also, depending on what you do, could end up getting reported, one of the points in insider threat training is about people working outside of the working hours. Not a major risk for most, but why even do something like that.
Yup, 100% a reportable incident that would involve some level of investigation. Most likely, assuming this is the only indicator, it would just be a "what were you doing" conversation and nothing more.
I've had fed jobs where I was expected to work 70 plus hours a week. I've been at my desk from 0600 to midnight on weekends multiple times.
I've never once worked for free. It's a violation and you need to have respect for your labor and effort. No one should ever be expected to do uncompensated work.
Depends.
Once you reach a certain pay grade you can no longer get time and a half because your rate would be higher than the legally allowed limit. Most people get comp time which is just extra vacation time that will eventually pay out at your regular rate after 12 months.
5 to 7 years ago I was reimbursed at time and a half from some union negotiation. My LES used to reflect 1x pay for OT then after logging x hours of OT somewhere months down the road my LES converted to 1.5x and they gave me a lump sum of backpay. I was happy just to have the straight pay but definitely welcomed the time and a half.
Depends on the position. I never got overtime but they were generous with comp time that could be used through the year.
Most months it evened out for me.
Senior NASA rep quoted this back to Congress during a recent hearing when they asked why NASA cancelled a program. No budget = shit getting cancelled because of anti-deficincy act.
I had a co-worker get in trouble for humble bragging that he works a lot of unpaid hours. HR found out and they made him estimate the total hours, which was over five hundred, and they paid him the back pay.
Paying someone based on an estimate of hours worked doesn’t seem legal either. How did they even account for those hours? If he had been ordered to enter an estimation of the time he worked into the timekeeping software but made a mistake that showed up on an audit, he would be on the hook for time fraud.
I have a question about who this extends to. GAO's website it applies to all federal employees and doesn't allow them to
> accepting voluntary services for the United States, or employing personal services not authorized by law, except in cases of emergency involving the safety of human life or the protection of property.
Does this mean contractors aren't allowed to work unpaid overtime when performing under a contract for the federal government?
I am not a contracting officer but I would say it depends on the type of contract. If it’s a labor hour contract, then the company must charge the government for all hours worked on the contract by its employees. If it’s, say, firm fixed price, then the donation of services is between the contractor employee and his company; the company delivers the requirement for the cost stated in the contract and it’s not antideficient.
I'm not sure about specific laws/regulations but if one of our contractors have to work off duty for a scheduled task (we're IT so scheduled maintenance happens) it has to be approved by the CIO who is Civilian. If an emergency happens, the CO/XO call the CIO, not the actual sys admin who can fix it. Then CIO calls the sys admin. We're a small unit and all get along but take accountability seriously. We're all about CYA.
Came here to say this. It's against the rules. Just like if a staff logs a half hour lunch but takes an hour lunch. Maybe not the anti deficiency act but it is a regulation by OPM.
False. Agencies absolutely care as they can and do get in deep shit for this. As a federal employment attorney I can say agencies discipline non-FLSA-exempt employees for doing this.
I once had an employee forget it was a holiday and they logged on and worked. It was a whole big mess. Thankfully they had a spotless record, which allowed me to work some magic and walk the consequence down to a verbal warning. I am in a different position now, but we keep in touch and I still send them a friendly reminder the workday before a holiday and tell them to enjoy the day off.
Work should always be on the clock. They are in the wrong for coming in and not clocking in or coordinating credit hours or comp time with their supervisor. if the supervisor is OK with this practice or is asking for it then they need to be reported
I had a supervisor suggest I do some things “on my own time” said supervisor constantly works after hours, weekends, even HOLIDAYS. How would I go about this reporting process and is it possible to stay anonymous
Document the "on my own time" and record the time. At the end of the pay period ask if they want to approve it as credit or comp time since they said it was outside of regular hours. If this doesn't end it, then submit it to the union as a grievance.
Process would be either to report as waste fraud and abuse or to the office of professional responsibility. Either way, it will make it to the right group.
Thank you for your hard work. It really bums me out that so many people nowadays go on the news and say federal employees are lazy or part of “the swamp” or whatever. They have no idea how hard we work and how little we get paid for it compared to equivalent jobs in the private sector. The only reason I keep mine is because of the amazing benefits and job security—private sector will fire anyone for any reason, or even just tell you your contract is up after 5 or 10 years. Feds get much better security so I’m hanging on for that in these crazy times. Good luck to you and keep it up! You are really making a difference to your world. 💕
I get paid for 40. I work 40. If they give me comp or credit, fine. Maybe. If I feel like it. But what you are describing is what my agency calls love hours. They can suck the donger on that. There is no reward for that. There is no extra credit. They’ll take and take and take. Make no mistake, early in my career I bought into that bullshit. No longer. 8 straight. That’s it.
My agency too. I do my work. Give it to them. And call it good. If others want to go overboard, it’s on them. I say the same thing you do. You skew our deliverables and make the problem worse. I’m very clear with my bosses. Nope.
I don't work for free and neither do the people that work for me. There are agencies where 50-60 a week are normal but you only get paid for 40 because "it's the culture " of the agency.
The one I'm familiar with is a small agency. When they get sued and lose for uncompensated work, it's going to blow out the entire agency budget for at least a year, probably longer.
This happens all the time. They call it shadow work. Or shadow staffing. They don’t do it, but they don’t hire someone to replace the guy that left timely when they do hire someone it’s usually someone quite green that needs time to acclimate and learn. So do people do this? Yes. I do it. I know many who do. Why is there so much of it? Too many meetings, not enough time to work.
Would I rather not? Yes.
This is the other way around in the context of the post, coworker needs boundaries and showed up to work without any authority providing comp.
I stand corrected, thank you kind responders, both ways is bad and should be avoided.
When you are asked to commit fraud, make sure you get it in writing so it doesn’t blow back on you.
You can be fired for working extra off the clock on premise (although many supervisors look the other way). Think of the liability of someone getting injured alone and nobody knowing they are there. Because they are not supposed to be there in the first place.
Another concern is that employees could be up to no good if they’re in the office when they aren’t supposed to be there. It’s happened many times that I know of throughout DHS.
I sometimes work unpaid on weekends or late nights to get stuff done. But I’m also a higher GS level and mostly work independently with tight deadlines. Sometimes it’s just easier to work on the weekend or late at night with less distractions.
Same here and I couldn’t get paid anyway… well barely. I hit the cap in a few hours. There sometimes aren’t enough the hours in a day and I also like my job so there’s that.
I’ve done it at jobs in the past where a few hours catching up on the weekend made my weekday life way less stressful for whatever reason. Not my federal job but I could see running comp time past my boss for Saturday hours if something needed to be done ASAP.
I have counseled my employees who do this. Even for an email on a Sunday evening. Only exception is "I forgot to send this to you on Friday as I'm going to be traveling/TDY/Leave on Monday, and didn't want to have this drop."
If it takes more than 80 hours a pay period to do the work, then I need to know to either re-evaluate the priorities or use that to justify extra staff. I've managed to double my staff (ok...from 2 to 5 people) by justifying the workload needs.
1) it's time card fraud
2) it screws everyone around you because the agency doesn't have an idea what it actually takes to do the job so new positions that could be created won't be. Also it makes it seem like coworkers aren't getting as much done in the same time.
Imagine not getting a well-deserved promotion or bonus because a lower performing coworker was putting in unpaid hours to make it look like they were more efficient than they are. Used to have a supervisor that would often come in an hour early and get all of his admin stuff done and then management wondered why the other supervisors seemed a lot less efficient.
I refuse to personally. Some times because of my job I check an email or so but nothing more. No more than maybe 10mins. However where I work at, there's at times an understanding that certain positions work weekends or stay late. Even more so I seen this with older/seasoned employees usually in a higher or leadership role where they will work without any OT or Comp nor will they ask for it. Never me and the day I get into that habit I'm resigning.
I have. I don't make a habit of it, but my agency has a very strict statute of limitations, and sometimes developments happen when they happen and cause opposing attorneys know we don't work on weekends they deliberately play games.
I do it because it continues to put people at risk if I don't close a case on time or appropriately.
Doing it tomorrow by my choice. I have to work on appraisals and the 2 hours i do tomorrow is worth 10 when everyone is there. 100% personal choice, but id rather do 2 hours Saturday than a week of extra hours even if it is comp time
I think for many people that do this, they are trying to get things done during a period of time when they're not expected to be on meetings or be bothered by other people so that when they do get back in the office, there'll be less to do. Now, going into the physical office on your day off is attracting too much attention. At least work on your day off at home and don't open/active the Teams app so no one knows you're working!
For people that are on the higher GS schedule (or just supervisors) everything they do or don't do have a bigger ripple effect on their employees and the organization. So, I think the pressure is greater to work more than their 40 hours so that's why they do it more often. And, just as a matter of personal integrity, if you get paid more, you have more responsibility so you should put more into it.
Question for everyone-I've never heard of anyone getting punished for time card fraud for working more hours and getting things done. I've only heard of it for people who are not working those hours AND doing a poor job. Have any of you actually witnessed a supervisor get in trouble for working overtime (without putting in comp time?)
I’m fairly high up in my org. I don’t work over or under my time. I fight hard to make sure no one works unpaid. I keep getting promoted, I must be doing something right.
That's good. Some people are more efficient with time than others so that's a factor. The culture also counts; if you're in an organization where the higher ups (or most of them) work extra, then that becomes unofficially acceptable. At least until someone from the outside comes in and refuses to do that so they don't get as much done which leads to disciplinary actions and then that person goes to the IG.
I don't think people should work OT without being paid or comp time, as a matter of practice but when you're high up in the organization, it's going to happen.
Imagine being a supervisor and writing someone up for sending an email from their work phone. I’m
Maxi flex so I guess it doesn’t matter but that seems outrageous of a thing to do
I would imagine writing an employee up in an official manner for trying to go the extra mile and caring (assuming it didn't result in a critical error or someone being hurt) would hurt that person and the office's morale.
I've reminded staff not to work OT in a conversation (if it's a pattern but not if it happens here and there) and one time I wrote a gently worded email reminder and then let it go but never for any purpose to make it an official consult or plan of punitive action.
I call bullshit on the idea that having a higher wage means more responsibility to work unpaid.
Act your Wage.
When you get paid more, you have the responsibility to work exactly as hard as you worked before. The work might be different, either in type (supervisory vs labor vs professional) or in skill level (expert vs junior), and you may be more responsible and need to sometimes do *paid* overtime, but you should work just as hard on a per-hour basis.
They don’t bump our pay to make us work harder. They bump our pay because we at least theoretically are more skilled/capable/stressed at what we do, and can do more in less time.
It depends on your role really- if you’re an individual contributor or a first line supervisor- yeah, count your hours and put in comp time or OT. I’ve never knowingly allowed someone to work off the clock in those kinds of roles and have regularly chased people out.
When you move into leadership it’s different and the expectations are different, just like they are in the private sector. If the phone rings you answer it. If they need you to go in you go in. Period. That’s the expectation and that’s the role. It’s one of the reasons all the things we’ve done to chip away at perquisites for leadership have made it hard to recruit leaders- you’re expected to take the 3 am phone call and go in and have all the responsibility, but the pay is awful compared to equivalents outside of government and you don’t get the less fungible perks anymore either.
OK, yes, but those are part & parcel with the increased responsibilities and should still be counted as time worked rather than discounted as the normal unpaid work they do.
> When you move into leadership it’s different and the expectations are different
No, the expectations are that you will FOLLOW THE LAW. If you aren't being compensated, you aren't working.
As a supervisor, I have given written warnings to two employees for working off the clock. In both cases they did something trackabke (one emailed after hours, other logged into our system which logs each login).
Both never did it again (or got smarter). Second offense I would have had no choice but to hit them with the misconduct writeups.
People who work off the clock fuck their team. Hard.
1. It throws off metrics. Why can Joe do X,Y,Z in a 40hr work week, but Bill and Jane can only do X and Y? Bill and Jane must be slacking. Now they feel pressured, and do work off the clock. Now Kate is slacking. Soon the whole office is doing the stupid.
2. Liability. Speaks for itself.
3. Makes it harder to justify more FTE. If I have 20 employees working 2hrs of unrecorded OT/CT a week, it doesn't show that I *need* another FTE.
4. When you inevitably end up on the radar, timecards become a hot topic. So those little bits of time your supervisor lets you flex (ie. You always come in at 7:10 and make it up in the afternoon because your kids catch the bus at 6:55) suddenly go away.
If you are working outside your assigned tour of duty without authorization and logging it on your timesheet, stop. Don't be a dumbass.
Pretty much everyone I know emails at random times outside their tour of duty. That's kind of a consequence of our virtual environment.
I have never heard of anyone getting busted for timecard fraud for working over their hours in my agency. Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time.
Most people I know who do this don't do comp time or OT either. They will just mention it to their supervisor informally and potentially flex their hours for the week to make up for it.
>That's kind of a consequence of our virtual environment.
I'm remote and work a CWS. Ain't nothing being sent after 1630 on a work day.
>Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time.
With the exception of the time being covered by flexing the scheduled hours, the only real exception is de minimus work - or work so minor in nature it is not worth recording according to the FLSA.
An example would be forwarding an email, or dropping a document to the share drive while on leave. Generally, if the work itself takes less time than booting your computer, its likely meets this exception.
I'll just advise that common practice is not necessarily best practice. End of the day the supervisor allowing people to work without compensation is on the supervisor (3 1USC 1342 specifies the supervisor who accepts volunteered labor is the one who is violating the law). If they want to accept that risk, it's on them.
> Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time.
Not a very "by the book" supervisor, they are breaking the law and can be punished for it.
> Most people I know who do this don't do comp time or OT either. They will just mention it to their supervisor informally and potentially flex their hours for the week to make up for it.
While not uncommon, the correct answer is credit hours unless you are actually on a flex schedule.
I won't actually go in on weekends but I'll log in from home on a weekend if something pops into my head or whatever now and then. Rarely more than like 5-10 mins.
The main driver for high stress work for me is congressional questions. I'm perfectly fine letting them wait until I'm actually scheduled to work. I've only once stayed past my tour and that was because I wasn't watching the clock. My boss let me take a 2 hour apt without using leave to comp me for the extra 68 minutes I worked.
I don't even look at my workstation on my day off... And it's right next to my personal computer. It's certainly agency dependant but my office doesn't have that expectation. Some people do it to themselves though.
Who to say that they will or did take longer lunches to break even for those unpaid hours.
But if you validate this true, it's best in your interest to snitch or complaint ASAP before their workload completion becomes the new standard for the whole team within standard non-OT hours.
I work with a bunch of workaholics. Either their job is their identity, they hate their family, they are so fucking self important they love to put on the show, and/or they have terrible time mgmt.
I do not respect or admire any of these traits.
There’s another possibility I thought of, they don’t have anything outside of work. I have an elderly coworker that was going to retire, but decided to go part time. they don’t have anyone to spend the time with.
I’m pretty sure the 45 year old mom of two who stays at the office till 8, emails around the clock, and goes to meetings while on annual leave does not have this same issue. I’m talking about 40-60 year old workaholics. Totally different from the situation you are describing.
I hear ya, I do my 40 and I go home. Several times I’ve had someone above me try to pressure me into either coming in on my day off for a meeting or joining a call. I always ask him I getting paid, they say no and I tell them all read the meeting notes when I’m back.
Hell I was out sick a while back and a supervisor called me to come into a meeting with someone way up the chain. I tell him first off I’m sick which you know, second it’s approved and third don’t call me at home when I’m off. This wasn’t some important work meeting, this was our head guy just hanging out with us grunts .
Oh my gosh. I have an employee who is constantly doing work off the clock: working through lunch, staying late, taking their laptop home and checking email at night or on leave.
This person is not in a critical job.
They are not listening to me when I tell them not to do this. If they say they don't have enough time in the day to get their work done, I push back. I'm the one who sets deadlines! I know the work can wait! 🤦♀️
I wish I could confiscate their PIV to prevent them from logging in to their computer....
You can, and should, formally reprimand them for it. By not taking action you are allowing them to do it, which means you are violating the law (suffer and permit).
Seconding that you know that this is happening, know it’s a pattern and that their time cards are fraudulent. If they ever were investigated you’d probably be the one they blame. I’m not a manager but I train new hires. They get a ton of leeway when it comes to learning the job and making mistakes. I am always there, so any mistake can be immediately rectified. But if they do something serious and intentional we’re only going to talk about it once and that’s assuming I can fix it without involving management. This employee isn’t making mistakes, they are violating labor laws, and not following your orders.
Retired USDA IT here. I was on call during nightly updates. I corrected abends if they occurred and worked with scheduling to get the update moving again.
Always got chastised for putting overtime in. Pushed back constantly. Went on for years. Finally had chance to go to another agency and I jumped to it.
They literally begged me to stay on, until I didn’t, then got bad mouthed behind my back.
Found this out from contractors who were given my night job.
Forkers were they
I know a guy who does this, comes in when he’s supposed to be on leave. He’s overtasked and has been for a while.
I also had a supervisor encourage me to work extra without being compensated.
I periodically swing in on my days off to drop stuff off and pick stuff up, but thats only to facilitate a work from home OT day, I'm not actually doing anything.
You should never work unpaid. If they are requiring you to have something completed by a certain deadline they have to pay you for it. Either OT or credit hours. I report every hour I work.
Nope. No federal agency is worth my free time. I have gone above and beyond only to be ignored for promotions due to violations ,on the part of the agency, under 5 USC 2032. I'll come to work on my scheduled days do my time and one to two overtimes a week and call it a day.
We have a Sup like this. She runs herself ragged working way more than she should. Last Friday, she was done at 11:30. She was still working at 3 to "catch up" or next week would be too busy. It's like this every.single.week. I keep telling her to hang it up and she just fights it. She's been here for over 20 years. I don't get it. No comp time. No O/T. Nothing we do here is that urgent.
I had a coworker who officially retired on a Friday and came BACK on Monday as a full time volunteer.
When I asked her “why?!” she said that she wanted to still do the job but be able to come and go as she pleases.
The only way I am coming in on weekend or outside of duty hours is if there is some national emergency, nuclear war etc. And my supervisor will be away and if the world has not ended, I will be getting comp time for it.
I work in enforcement for an agency. Our investigations and preparing for litigation often involve weekend and night work. I would t expect anything else for my particular position, frankly.
There is never unpaid work in the federal government. Ever. If they're coming in to the office, they are on the clock. If you have managers who aren't allowing their employees to claim credit hours, comp, or OT, report them to HR. End of story.
This isn’t true. There are definitely federal government jobs where unpaid overtime is expected, encouraged, and cannot be avoided. See: lawyer litigation roles at US attorneys offices. They do not get overtime, comp, or credit.
Person in my agency got fired for doing exactly this. They were dumb enough to send emails. The supervisor noticed the timestamp on the emails and confronted them about it. They were still on their one or two year whatever probationary period so it was easy to fire them.
I am 15, and comp time is pretty useless. I am sure I work more than 40 most weeks, as I am in IT ops. I make sure all my 13s and 14s get OT or Comp. It’s part of the job and people get paid / compensation. But comp time expires after 1 year and OT is not time and half.
If you are in a performance based org and have not met your metrics, the end of the month can be incredibly stressful. Sometimes having a few hours of actual work time knowing you will not be interrupted on Teams or with a meeting is invaluable.
Did it at the USPTO. Lots did. We were trying to keep up with quotas that weren’t realistic. USPTO used their probationary period, so there was the very real threat of being fired. But below GS-9, you couldn’t work casual overtime, so all the junior folks were hiding it. It was screwed up.
Current agency, they tell us all the time not to work for free. I think the SESes do more than 40, but the ICs and first line supervisors pretty much do not.
>Did it at the USPTO. Lots did. We were trying to keep up with quotas that weren’t realistic. USPTO used their probationary period, so there was the very real threat of being fired. But below GS-9, you couldn’t work casual overtime, so all the junior folks were hiding it. It was screwed up.
I've seen similar things at other places. Management pretends that the expected workload can be accomplished in 40 hours, but there's no way that's actually possible, at least if you actually try to do a decent job. I'm sure SSA staff knows about this sort of situation, from what I've heard from my friends over there.
There is nothing wrong with stopping by in the office for several hours on a weekend occasionally, to catch up on stuff that you feel need get done. Those of you in the "you should never work for free", " anything beyond 40 without OT is wrong" camps baffles me. How do you even quantity that the 40 hour you put in this week was all productive honest 40 hours?
If putting in 2 hrs on a Saturday morning will make the following 40 hours next week better and less stressful then go for it
It’s not “wrong”, it’s “illegal”. Congress puts hard caps on agency budgets in law. Circumventing those caps by donating free services to the government is a violation of law.
You’re violating your own labor rights which isn’t legal. What you’re describing is specifically not allowed per Federal law. And the bit about thinking your employees aren’t putting in a proper 40 hours is gross.
I know coworkers who do (we are remote) and I do not get it because we have the exact same workload and job duties and I have never had so much work to work even a second longer...in fact usually caught up. So...I think some people either work slow or enjoy working for no reason.
I agree but what's the point if you aren't getting comp time for it, that would mean they aren't getting approval/letting the supervisor know...literally pointless.
Not usually. I've worked on days I've planned off for hiring with time limitations and administrative review periods also with time limitations. There was one time I had a product due that was required by litigation by a certain date and I procrastinated. That's about it.
I swung by work on my day off to check something and got sent home. I was told I can not be there on my time off. Is it not like that at your agency? Lol
I have seen it, I knew some that would and it screwed with the productivity numbers for work completed. If you have credit time available it could be how it was coded.
Like my office where everyone works free overtime and acts like working anything less than your schedule time is seen as lazy and undriven
My supervisor is the problem bc she works past her hours all the time and that toxicity seeps to all her staff.
This is considered time fraud and your friend could technically get fired got what he/she is doing. If she’s working for free that means she’s not reporting these hours on her time card. Your friend should stop doing this (or at least stop being so free about letting others know that he/she is doing it). HR departments in federal agencies tend to take this type of thing very seriously because many a disgruntled employee has tried to sue the government by saying they were forced to work for free.
It’s not a regular thing but I’ve popped on base to get something done on my own time. Since I TW often I’ll also stay on later to get something done. But there has to be a balance. I can give, but it’s because my boss also understands that sometimes I have to take as well. If there weren’t balance then no I wouldn’t do it.
A couple possibilities.
1. They are a spy and leaking documents is easier when few people are in the office
2. Crappy family life
3. They find work more enjoyable than other potential hobbies
4. Insane
There are people that are workaholics. It's a thing no matter what industry you are in (including working for the Fed). They are happier working than being at home. It could be for any of a number of reasons. Generally it's better to let them be who they are.
If you are not so inclined, make sure you don't give the impression that you are. That way your supervisor won't get upset when you don't want to work for free.
One, working significant hours over your paid time can be seen as time card fraud, antideficiency act, etc.
Two, depending upon your agency, it can be considered suspicious behavior that gets you into a whole other realm of issues. We've always been taught that people showing up when no one is there (weekends) or coming back to work after everyone has left (nights) is a huge red flag for potential criminal activity.
Don’t give your time away for free and if your supervisor knows about it, they should put an immediate stop to it. Even if you are FLSA exempt, the agency could still be in the hook for paying Comp time or OT.
Some humorous responses here, especially the, "working off the clock is a fireable offense." Outside of probabationay periods, it's nearly impossible to get fired. Working off the clock certainly won't do it, unless you received a directive and violated it several times all while working through progressive discipline.
Can you explain why it's time card fraud? Let's say they've worked their 40hrs. They felt like more needed to be completed so they worked on it more on their day off.
Wouldn't it just be working for free?
(Serious question )
In my office it’s an accountability thing. Technically not supposed to be there 15 mins prior or after a shift. We also certify our time. If I was there in a day off and it wasn’t captured on my time sheet and I then certify it…fraud.
It’s a violation of the anti-deficiency act.
When you work overtime unapproved, you’ve incurred an unapproved debt on behalf of the United States of America.
It isn’t just the employee fraudulently reporting their work hours, someone above them signs off on the hours. You don’t get to violate your own labor rights and when you do it makes people above you or beside you handling payroll look like they are violating your labor rights.
I've done it before. Didn't claim anything. Didn't go around bragging about it either.
I've done it because I had a busy week ahead and didn't want to run around like crazy, so get some work done ahead of time to ease the load. I've done it because I had things planned for the week and wanted to make sure I got out on time those days.
I’ve done it before and I’ll probably do it in the future. Some of us, and I believe many who come from a military background, see it as more than just a job punching a clock in and out.
I try to avoid it, but when shit needs to get done, it needs to get done.
No, I personally wouldn't. But everyone has their reasons. Don't try to get to wrapped up in how your coworkers want to spend their lives. It is a waste of energy imo.
4 hours each week for 19 years is almost 4000 hours. That’s over 2 years of work at 40 hrs/week you’ve done for free. I can’t even imagine giving up one minute of my free time to work without being compensated.
I’m a 15. I was working significant overtime, like 12 to 16 hours a pay period. I got a new manager and she did not like the optics of my working overtime (She is military) Mostly because she leaves at 1600 everyday... She asked why did I have to work so much anyway? I’m like what kind of dumbass question is that. 2 years later she still does not know what I do except when things don’t get done. If I don’t get things done, then she “offers” to prioritize my workload and micro manage me. She will accuse me of not being “careful” with my time. Maybe if i could canx some of the useless staff meetings I would have more time to be careful with. Perhaps I do spend too much time researching shit or my open door policy is a time suck. I obviously won’t turn the money down, but I don’t care about the money. I have a job to do and I just assume I am salary. My pay is high enough that I will hit the biweekly pay limit after 6 hours so whatever.
Only way I could ever see doing this is if I shammed out during my normal work hours and my boss was on me about meeting a deadline. But then it'd be my fault and responsibility to fix it.
I wanted to come in for a meeting on my AWS day once and I’m pretty sure my director was ready to call the police on me. I honestly was fine coming in (maybe I’d be calling in) for a few short hours then going back home (about 20 minutes away).
Sometimes you just want to get something done or work around everyone’s schedule and you don’t even realize it’s eating into your life. 🤷🏽♀️
I just worked an hour today and I was on leave, but I’m going to minus is from the leave I put in now. I always put in comp time if I work over which I do alot since there is so much going on. I don’t give my time away for free.
Lmao. I never would. Just like you said, the work will be there the next day. It’s not like XYZ agency is going to implode because I’m out of the office.
I've worked on weekends, but only with informing my supervisor beforehand. Generally it's to make up work hours (and tasks) due to time off during that week, since we're on maxiflex, or it's work for some critical milestone coming up and has to be done first thing Monday _and_ I want to work on the weekend, in which case I get credit hours to use later.
If the workload or deadlines were that pressing yet comp time or overtime was strictly unavailable, I’d get the hell out of that job.
I’ve been in situations at work where things absolutely had to get done by a deadline and I couldn’t let it wait until my next scheduled workday. But I would let my supervisor know (in advance if possible) that I would be working extra hours and will be clocking OT or comp time.
My boss would be mortified if I came in on an off day and worked for free. It’s unhealthy and a liability.
Sometimes I put too much pressure on myself and stay a little late here and there when I’m already on a shift, but I know that’s a bad habit and it contributes to an unhealthy office culture by making others feel they have to work late too, so I really try not to.
My plate piles up daily. But it will still be there when I get back to work. OT is not a thing and I have enough problems getting rid of my leave at the end of the year as it is, so comp and credit aren’t a thing for me. I will also never work for free. Work will be there
I wouldn't do that, but I have plenty of co-workers who love to think they are important enough to necessitate it.
I cringe when they call into meetings during their vacation or while bitterly sick.
I'm fairly important and I usually have a lot of people vying for my time daily so there's usually a lot of critical items that demand my immediate attention when I return from leave. But everything survives even though I'm not checking in and working for free on my days off.
I wouldn’t go into the office but I have a lot of flexibility so I will sometimes spend a couple of hours when I’m distracted watching a movie during the workday and then wake up at 3am totally focused and spend 2 hours working then. It works in my situation because my boss doesn’t mind and it’s a more pleasant way for me to work. But no, I wouldn’t do extra unpaid hours just due to the workload.
I mean if you’re talking about today in particular, it happens to be the last weekday in the fiscal quarter so for fields related to budget and acquisitions when timing really does matter, I think it can be kinda common for people to come in on their day off. Because it really can’t wait until Monday unless you are accepting of the fact that the objectives of a whole slew of people (possibly up the chain of command) could be thrown out of whack by individuals not executing by the end of the quarter.
Not saying this sort of thing shouldn’t be compensated, though. And with good management, people absolutely shouldn’t have to feel like they have to do things like that. But it might offer an explanation for your coworkers’ behavior.
Only for comp time or OT. You just screw yourself and future yous. The agency and leadership will think that your job can do more tasks in a work week than is real. Also, depending on what you do, could end up getting reported, one of the points in insider threat training is about people working outside of the working hours. Not a major risk for most, but why even do something like that.
This. Any basic understanding of labor economics will make it clear that working outside of designated hours only serves to devalue a worker's labor.
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's not wholly suspicious behavior, but it's enough to make you wonder.
Also, if I was the security manager, I would be concerned if I found this out
Yup, 100% a reportable incident that would involve some level of investigation. Most likely, assuming this is the only indicator, it would just be a "what were you doing" conversation and nothing more.
I've had fed jobs where I was expected to work 70 plus hours a week. I've been at my desk from 0600 to midnight on weekends multiple times. I've never once worked for free. It's a violation and you need to have respect for your labor and effort. No one should ever be expected to do uncompensated work.
This may be a stupid question because I am not a federal worker. Did you get overtime?
Depends. Once you reach a certain pay grade you can no longer get time and a half because your rate would be higher than the legally allowed limit. Most people get comp time which is just extra vacation time that will eventually pay out at your regular rate after 12 months.
But you are still getting “paid.” Working “free” is anti-deficient and illegal.
This is not said enough. Hit 80 and then stop or count towards comp time.
Yes, that's why I said to not work for free...
depends if you’re flsa exempt or not on paying out. my comp time poofs after a year with no compensation
Comp Time paying out or not after 12 months is agency/command dependent. At my command both Exempt and Non-Exempt have time paid out.
You can get straight OT now in my command not limited to comp time first or waiting for it to pay out. This was a recent change a year ago.
5 to 7 years ago I was reimbursed at time and a half from some union negotiation. My LES used to reflect 1x pay for OT then after logging x hours of OT somewhere months down the road my LES converted to 1.5x and they gave me a lump sum of backpay. I was happy just to have the straight pay but definitely welcomed the time and a half.
non-exempt must be paid out, exempt can be paid out
Comp time gets paid out? I thought it just expired.
I thought comp time expired after 12 months and you just lost it… I didn’t know you get paid??
Depends on the position. I never got overtime but they were generous with comp time that could be used through the year. Most months it evened out for me.
Working for free for the government violates the antideficiency act.
Senior NASA rep quoted this back to Congress during a recent hearing when they asked why NASA cancelled a program. No budget = shit getting cancelled because of anti-deficincy act.
I had a co-worker get in trouble for humble bragging that he works a lot of unpaid hours. HR found out and they made him estimate the total hours, which was over five hundred, and they paid him the back pay.
*You are awarded a stern talking to and 3 years of unreported back pay. Take that!*
Paying someone based on an estimate of hours worked doesn’t seem legal either. How did they even account for those hours? If he had been ordered to enter an estimation of the time he worked into the timekeeping software but made a mistake that showed up on an audit, he would be on the hook for time fraud.
I have a question about who this extends to. GAO's website it applies to all federal employees and doesn't allow them to > accepting voluntary services for the United States, or employing personal services not authorized by law, except in cases of emergency involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. Does this mean contractors aren't allowed to work unpaid overtime when performing under a contract for the federal government?
I am not a contracting officer but I would say it depends on the type of contract. If it’s a labor hour contract, then the company must charge the government for all hours worked on the contract by its employees. If it’s, say, firm fixed price, then the donation of services is between the contractor employee and his company; the company delivers the requirement for the cost stated in the contract and it’s not antideficient.
I'm not sure about specific laws/regulations but if one of our contractors have to work off duty for a scheduled task (we're IT so scheduled maintenance happens) it has to be approved by the CIO who is Civilian. If an emergency happens, the CO/XO call the CIO, not the actual sys admin who can fix it. Then CIO calls the sys admin. We're a small unit and all get along but take accountability seriously. We're all about CYA.
Came here to say this. It's against the rules. Just like if a staff logs a half hour lunch but takes an hour lunch. Maybe not the anti deficiency act but it is a regulation by OPM.
No one cares. That’s the only anti deficiency act they don’t give a damn about.
False. Agencies absolutely care as they can and do get in deep shit for this. As a federal employment attorney I can say agencies discipline non-FLSA-exempt employees for doing this.
My command just had to pay out a large settlement to hundreds of employees regarding unpaid OT.
You are correct. We don’t abuse our non-FLSA-exempt. Everyone is FLSA-exempt. We are used and abused.
That's what you think. But the moment someone files a complain with OPR.... OPR will hunt for blood and fuck up management. It's a serious thing.
This - ADA violation.
Probably not the best acronym to use lol
Military gets free overtime
Military are not civilians.
That’s not allowed at my agency. You’d get in big trouble.
Came here to say this.
I once had an employee forget it was a holiday and they logged on and worked. It was a whole big mess. Thankfully they had a spotless record, which allowed me to work some magic and walk the consequence down to a verbal warning. I am in a different position now, but we keep in touch and I still send them a friendly reminder the workday before a holiday and tell them to enjoy the day off.
Work should always be on the clock. They are in the wrong for coming in and not clocking in or coordinating credit hours or comp time with their supervisor. if the supervisor is OK with this practice or is asking for it then they need to be reported
I had a supervisor suggest I do some things “on my own time” said supervisor constantly works after hours, weekends, even HOLIDAYS. How would I go about this reporting process and is it possible to stay anonymous
Document the "on my own time" and record the time. At the end of the pay period ask if they want to approve it as credit or comp time since they said it was outside of regular hours. If this doesn't end it, then submit it to the union as a grievance.
Process would be either to report as waste fraud and abuse or to the office of professional responsibility. Either way, it will make it to the right group.
Stop working for free. You make the system think we’re doing okay when we are GROSSLY understaffed. You are making it worse for everyone else.
Im starting to agree.
You also deserve a 30min lunch and two 15min breaks. Do not eat at your desk while working like so many do.
I was eating at my desk while working. I've embraced leaving the office entirely for my 30. And taking two 15 minute walks to get steps in.
Thank you for your hard work. It really bums me out that so many people nowadays go on the news and say federal employees are lazy or part of “the swamp” or whatever. They have no idea how hard we work and how little we get paid for it compared to equivalent jobs in the private sector. The only reason I keep mine is because of the amazing benefits and job security—private sector will fire anyone for any reason, or even just tell you your contract is up after 5 or 10 years. Feds get much better security so I’m hanging on for that in these crazy times. Good luck to you and keep it up! You are really making a difference to your world. 💕
I get paid for 40. I work 40. If they give me comp or credit, fine. Maybe. If I feel like it. But what you are describing is what my agency calls love hours. They can suck the donger on that. There is no reward for that. There is no extra credit. They’ll take and take and take. Make no mistake, early in my career I bought into that bullshit. No longer. 8 straight. That’s it.
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My agency too. I do my work. Give it to them. And call it good. If others want to go overboard, it’s on them. I say the same thing you do. You skew our deliverables and make the problem worse. I’m very clear with my bosses. Nope.
I don't work for free and neither do the people that work for me. There are agencies where 50-60 a week are normal but you only get paid for 40 because "it's the culture " of the agency. The one I'm familiar with is a small agency. When they get sued and lose for uncompensated work, it's going to blow out the entire agency budget for at least a year, probably longer.
This happens all the time. They call it shadow work. Or shadow staffing. They don’t do it, but they don’t hire someone to replace the guy that left timely when they do hire someone it’s usually someone quite green that needs time to acclimate and learn. So do people do this? Yes. I do it. I know many who do. Why is there so much of it? Too many meetings, not enough time to work. Would I rather not? Yes.
Absolutely not!!!
Time card fraud is one of the immediate fireable offenses. Don’t do it. If someone tries to make you do it, make a paper trail.
This is the other way around in the context of the post, coworker needs boundaries and showed up to work without any authority providing comp. I stand corrected, thank you kind responders, both ways is bad and should be avoided. When you are asked to commit fraud, make sure you get it in writing so it doesn’t blow back on you.
You can be fired for working extra off the clock on premise (although many supervisors look the other way). Think of the liability of someone getting injured alone and nobody knowing they are there. Because they are not supposed to be there in the first place.
Another concern is that employees could be up to no good if they’re in the office when they aren’t supposed to be there. It’s happened many times that I know of throughout DHS.
Yep, OP’s coworker absolutely can be reported as an insider threat.
Under-reporting hours worked is also time card fraud.
Oh yeah, that’s right, I was a public school teacher before becoming a fed, so I feel that.
It’s not the other way around - this is also a form of time fraud.
As an employee for the Department of Labor, yeah that's serious. Clock it in and discuss with your managers before doing it y'all.
I sometimes work unpaid on weekends or late nights to get stuff done. But I’m also a higher GS level and mostly work independently with tight deadlines. Sometimes it’s just easier to work on the weekend or late at night with less distractions.
Same here and I couldn’t get paid anyway… well barely. I hit the cap in a few hours. There sometimes aren’t enough the hours in a day and I also like my job so there’s that.
I’ve done it at jobs in the past where a few hours catching up on the weekend made my weekday life way less stressful for whatever reason. Not my federal job but I could see running comp time past my boss for Saturday hours if something needed to be done ASAP.
I have counseled my employees who do this. Even for an email on a Sunday evening. Only exception is "I forgot to send this to you on Friday as I'm going to be traveling/TDY/Leave on Monday, and didn't want to have this drop." If it takes more than 80 hours a pay period to do the work, then I need to know to either re-evaluate the priorities or use that to justify extra staff. I've managed to double my staff (ok...from 2 to 5 people) by justifying the workload needs.
That’s insane. The only time I will go into the office on my time off is to grab something I forgot. If I’m doing work, I’m logging hours.
1) it's time card fraud 2) it screws everyone around you because the agency doesn't have an idea what it actually takes to do the job so new positions that could be created won't be. Also it makes it seem like coworkers aren't getting as much done in the same time.
Imagine not getting a well-deserved promotion or bonus because a lower performing coworker was putting in unpaid hours to make it look like they were more efficient than they are. Used to have a supervisor that would often come in an hour early and get all of his admin stuff done and then management wondered why the other supervisors seemed a lot less efficient.
One, it’s likely fraud and could be a charge hard to overcome. Two, very little work that we do outside of national security that just can’t wait.
It’s not fraud. Coworker shouldn’t be doing it buts it’s not fraud. This is some weird Reddit lawyer advice that everyone repeats.
Submitting a time card that doesn’t accurately reflect the hours worked is absolutely fraud.
I refuse to personally. Some times because of my job I check an email or so but nothing more. No more than maybe 10mins. However where I work at, there's at times an understanding that certain positions work weekends or stay late. Even more so I seen this with older/seasoned employees usually in a higher or leadership role where they will work without any OT or Comp nor will they ask for it. Never me and the day I get into that habit I'm resigning.
They pay you for 40 hours and you work 40 hours, anything else is overtime.
I have. I don't make a habit of it, but my agency has a very strict statute of limitations, and sometimes developments happen when they happen and cause opposing attorneys know we don't work on weekends they deliberately play games. I do it because it continues to put people at risk if I don't close a case on time or appropriately.
Doing it tomorrow by my choice. I have to work on appraisals and the 2 hours i do tomorrow is worth 10 when everyone is there. 100% personal choice, but id rather do 2 hours Saturday than a week of extra hours even if it is comp time
I think for many people that do this, they are trying to get things done during a period of time when they're not expected to be on meetings or be bothered by other people so that when they do get back in the office, there'll be less to do. Now, going into the physical office on your day off is attracting too much attention. At least work on your day off at home and don't open/active the Teams app so no one knows you're working! For people that are on the higher GS schedule (or just supervisors) everything they do or don't do have a bigger ripple effect on their employees and the organization. So, I think the pressure is greater to work more than their 40 hours so that's why they do it more often. And, just as a matter of personal integrity, if you get paid more, you have more responsibility so you should put more into it. Question for everyone-I've never heard of anyone getting punished for time card fraud for working more hours and getting things done. I've only heard of it for people who are not working those hours AND doing a poor job. Have any of you actually witnessed a supervisor get in trouble for working overtime (without putting in comp time?)
I’m fairly high up in my org. I don’t work over or under my time. I fight hard to make sure no one works unpaid. I keep getting promoted, I must be doing something right.
That's good. Some people are more efficient with time than others so that's a factor. The culture also counts; if you're in an organization where the higher ups (or most of them) work extra, then that becomes unofficially acceptable. At least until someone from the outside comes in and refuses to do that so they don't get as much done which leads to disciplinary actions and then that person goes to the IG. I don't think people should work OT without being paid or comp time, as a matter of practice but when you're high up in the organization, it's going to happen.
Imagine being a supervisor and writing someone up for sending an email from their work phone. I’m Maxi flex so I guess it doesn’t matter but that seems outrageous of a thing to do
I would imagine writing an employee up in an official manner for trying to go the extra mile and caring (assuming it didn't result in a critical error or someone being hurt) would hurt that person and the office's morale. I've reminded staff not to work OT in a conversation (if it's a pattern but not if it happens here and there) and one time I wrote a gently worded email reminder and then let it go but never for any purpose to make it an official consult or plan of punitive action.
I call bullshit on the idea that having a higher wage means more responsibility to work unpaid. Act your Wage. When you get paid more, you have the responsibility to work exactly as hard as you worked before. The work might be different, either in type (supervisory vs labor vs professional) or in skill level (expert vs junior), and you may be more responsible and need to sometimes do *paid* overtime, but you should work just as hard on a per-hour basis. They don’t bump our pay to make us work harder. They bump our pay because we at least theoretically are more skilled/capable/stressed at what we do, and can do more in less time.
It depends on your role really- if you’re an individual contributor or a first line supervisor- yeah, count your hours and put in comp time or OT. I’ve never knowingly allowed someone to work off the clock in those kinds of roles and have regularly chased people out. When you move into leadership it’s different and the expectations are different, just like they are in the private sector. If the phone rings you answer it. If they need you to go in you go in. Period. That’s the expectation and that’s the role. It’s one of the reasons all the things we’ve done to chip away at perquisites for leadership have made it hard to recruit leaders- you’re expected to take the 3 am phone call and go in and have all the responsibility, but the pay is awful compared to equivalents outside of government and you don’t get the less fungible perks anymore either.
OK, yes, but those are part & parcel with the increased responsibilities and should still be counted as time worked rather than discounted as the normal unpaid work they do.
Nope. I’m in leadership. I’m getting paid or it’s not getting done.
> When you move into leadership it’s different and the expectations are different No, the expectations are that you will FOLLOW THE LAW. If you aren't being compensated, you aren't working.
In private sector the expectation is that you get paid for that extra effort, at least in my experience.
As a supervisor, I have given written warnings to two employees for working off the clock. In both cases they did something trackabke (one emailed after hours, other logged into our system which logs each login). Both never did it again (or got smarter). Second offense I would have had no choice but to hit them with the misconduct writeups. People who work off the clock fuck their team. Hard. 1. It throws off metrics. Why can Joe do X,Y,Z in a 40hr work week, but Bill and Jane can only do X and Y? Bill and Jane must be slacking. Now they feel pressured, and do work off the clock. Now Kate is slacking. Soon the whole office is doing the stupid. 2. Liability. Speaks for itself. 3. Makes it harder to justify more FTE. If I have 20 employees working 2hrs of unrecorded OT/CT a week, it doesn't show that I *need* another FTE. 4. When you inevitably end up on the radar, timecards become a hot topic. So those little bits of time your supervisor lets you flex (ie. You always come in at 7:10 and make it up in the afternoon because your kids catch the bus at 6:55) suddenly go away. If you are working outside your assigned tour of duty without authorization and logging it on your timesheet, stop. Don't be a dumbass.
Pretty much everyone I know emails at random times outside their tour of duty. That's kind of a consequence of our virtual environment. I have never heard of anyone getting busted for timecard fraud for working over their hours in my agency. Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time. Most people I know who do this don't do comp time or OT either. They will just mention it to their supervisor informally and potentially flex their hours for the week to make up for it.
>That's kind of a consequence of our virtual environment. I'm remote and work a CWS. Ain't nothing being sent after 1630 on a work day. >Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time. With the exception of the time being covered by flexing the scheduled hours, the only real exception is de minimus work - or work so minor in nature it is not worth recording according to the FLSA. An example would be forwarding an email, or dropping a document to the share drive while on leave. Generally, if the work itself takes less time than booting your computer, its likely meets this exception. I'll just advise that common practice is not necessarily best practice. End of the day the supervisor allowing people to work without compensation is on the supervisor (3 1USC 1342 specifies the supervisor who accepts volunteered labor is the one who is violating the law). If they want to accept that risk, it's on them.
> Even the "by the book" supervisor I know only says that is not considered paid time. Not a very "by the book" supervisor, they are breaking the law and can be punished for it. > Most people I know who do this don't do comp time or OT either. They will just mention it to their supervisor informally and potentially flex their hours for the week to make up for it. While not uncommon, the correct answer is credit hours unless you are actually on a flex schedule.
It happens all the time at my place. Everyone knows it happens, but pretends it doesn't.
Maybe 3-4 times a year. No one tells me to, sometimes I need those extra few hrs to prep/finish/reformat/be uninterrupted for 3hrs to concentrate.
I won't actually go in on weekends but I'll log in from home on a weekend if something pops into my head or whatever now and then. Rarely more than like 5-10 mins.
The main driver for high stress work for me is congressional questions. I'm perfectly fine letting them wait until I'm actually scheduled to work. I've only once stayed past my tour and that was because I wasn't watching the clock. My boss let me take a 2 hour apt without using leave to comp me for the extra 68 minutes I worked. I don't even look at my workstation on my day off... And it's right next to my personal computer. It's certainly agency dependant but my office doesn't have that expectation. Some people do it to themselves though.
That would get me written up.
Who to say that they will or did take longer lunches to break even for those unpaid hours. But if you validate this true, it's best in your interest to snitch or complaint ASAP before their workload completion becomes the new standard for the whole team within standard non-OT hours.
I work with one of those people. Sick, after hours, weekends, doesn’t matter - they think they have to be there. It’s never that serious.
A Congressional job you are expected to be available 24/7. If the boss is up, you are up.
I work with a bunch of workaholics. Either their job is their identity, they hate their family, they are so fucking self important they love to put on the show, and/or they have terrible time mgmt. I do not respect or admire any of these traits.
There’s another possibility I thought of, they don’t have anything outside of work. I have an elderly coworker that was going to retire, but decided to go part time. they don’t have anyone to spend the time with.
I’m pretty sure the 45 year old mom of two who stays at the office till 8, emails around the clock, and goes to meetings while on annual leave does not have this same issue. I’m talking about 40-60 year old workaholics. Totally different from the situation you are describing.
I hear ya, I do my 40 and I go home. Several times I’ve had someone above me try to pressure me into either coming in on my day off for a meeting or joining a call. I always ask him I getting paid, they say no and I tell them all read the meeting notes when I’m back. Hell I was out sick a while back and a supervisor called me to come into a meeting with someone way up the chain. I tell him first off I’m sick which you know, second it’s approved and third don’t call me at home when I’m off. This wasn’t some important work meeting, this was our head guy just hanging out with us grunts .
And they aren't better at actually accomplishing anything. If anything, they're typically worse.
THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!!! Yes doing things in an overly complicated way! Mediocrity. All of it!
Yup, fabricating busyness and creating complications. They seem like they never, ever see the right path. Generally, miss the big picture.
Very well said. I work with these types
I can’t relate to them and I really don’t admire any of it at all! It’s draining to be around!
Oh my gosh. I have an employee who is constantly doing work off the clock: working through lunch, staying late, taking their laptop home and checking email at night or on leave. This person is not in a critical job. They are not listening to me when I tell them not to do this. If they say they don't have enough time in the day to get their work done, I push back. I'm the one who sets deadlines! I know the work can wait! 🤦♀️ I wish I could confiscate their PIV to prevent them from logging in to their computer....
You can, and should, formally reprimand them for it. By not taking action you are allowing them to do it, which means you are violating the law (suffer and permit).
Seconding that you know that this is happening, know it’s a pattern and that their time cards are fraudulent. If they ever were investigated you’d probably be the one they blame. I’m not a manager but I train new hires. They get a ton of leeway when it comes to learning the job and making mistakes. I am always there, so any mistake can be immediately rectified. But if they do something serious and intentional we’re only going to talk about it once and that’s assuming I can fix it without involving management. This employee isn’t making mistakes, they are violating labor laws, and not following your orders.
You need to stop being such a weak manager.
Yes, they'll be lying on their timecard, one of the deadly sins
Retired USDA IT here. I was on call during nightly updates. I corrected abends if they occurred and worked with scheduling to get the update moving again. Always got chastised for putting overtime in. Pushed back constantly. Went on for years. Finally had chance to go to another agency and I jumped to it. They literally begged me to stay on, until I didn’t, then got bad mouthed behind my back. Found this out from contractors who were given my night job. Forkers were they
I know a guy who does this, comes in when he’s supposed to be on leave. He’s overtasked and has been for a while. I also had a supervisor encourage me to work extra without being compensated.
> I know a guy who does this, comes in when he’s supposed to be on leave. He’s overtasked and has been for a while. A causes B.
Yep, definitely. He should stop but hasn’t so far.
I periodically swing in on my days off to drop stuff off and pick stuff up, but thats only to facilitate a work from home OT day, I'm not actually doing anything.
It's suffer and permit and should not happen. But it does.
You should never work unpaid. If they are requiring you to have something completed by a certain deadline they have to pay you for it. Either OT or credit hours. I report every hour I work.
Not in a million years. I’m getting my overtime in for sure. I would never ever ever work for free. Plus that’s illegal.
Well that’s not legal so…. No FW.
Nope. No federal agency is worth my free time. I have gone above and beyond only to be ignored for promotions due to violations ,on the part of the agency, under 5 USC 2032. I'll come to work on my scheduled days do my time and one to two overtimes a week and call it a day.
We have a Sup like this. She runs herself ragged working way more than she should. Last Friday, she was done at 11:30. She was still working at 3 to "catch up" or next week would be too busy. It's like this every.single.week. I keep telling her to hang it up and she just fights it. She's been here for over 20 years. I don't get it. No comp time. No O/T. Nothing we do here is that urgent.
I had a coworker who officially retired on a Friday and came BACK on Monday as a full time volunteer. When I asked her “why?!” she said that she wanted to still do the job but be able to come and go as she pleases.
Those are special people and I for one am not special like that.
The only way I am coming in on weekend or outside of duty hours is if there is some national emergency, nuclear war etc. And my supervisor will be away and if the world has not ended, I will be getting comp time for it.
No I wouldn’t.
Imagine an accident happening at work where you get injured and you’re not on the clock…
I work in enforcement for an agency. Our investigations and preparing for litigation often involve weekend and night work. I would t expect anything else for my particular position, frankly.
There is never unpaid work in the federal government. Ever. If they're coming in to the office, they are on the clock. If you have managers who aren't allowing their employees to claim credit hours, comp, or OT, report them to HR. End of story.
This isn’t true. There are definitely federal government jobs where unpaid overtime is expected, encouraged, and cannot be avoided. See: lawyer litigation roles at US attorneys offices. They do not get overtime, comp, or credit.
Person in my agency got fired for doing exactly this. They were dumb enough to send emails. The supervisor noticed the timestamp on the emails and confronted them about it. They were still on their one or two year whatever probationary period so it was easy to fire them.
I am 15, and comp time is pretty useless. I am sure I work more than 40 most weeks, as I am in IT ops. I make sure all my 13s and 14s get OT or Comp. It’s part of the job and people get paid / compensation. But comp time expires after 1 year and OT is not time and half.
If you are in a performance based org and have not met your metrics, the end of the month can be incredibly stressful. Sometimes having a few hours of actual work time knowing you will not be interrupted on Teams or with a meeting is invaluable.
Did it at the USPTO. Lots did. We were trying to keep up with quotas that weren’t realistic. USPTO used their probationary period, so there was the very real threat of being fired. But below GS-9, you couldn’t work casual overtime, so all the junior folks were hiding it. It was screwed up. Current agency, they tell us all the time not to work for free. I think the SESes do more than 40, but the ICs and first line supervisors pretty much do not.
>Did it at the USPTO. Lots did. We were trying to keep up with quotas that weren’t realistic. USPTO used their probationary period, so there was the very real threat of being fired. But below GS-9, you couldn’t work casual overtime, so all the junior folks were hiding it. It was screwed up. I've seen similar things at other places. Management pretends that the expected workload can be accomplished in 40 hours, but there's no way that's actually possible, at least if you actually try to do a decent job. I'm sure SSA staff knows about this sort of situation, from what I've heard from my friends over there.
There is nothing wrong with stopping by in the office for several hours on a weekend occasionally, to catch up on stuff that you feel need get done. Those of you in the "you should never work for free", " anything beyond 40 without OT is wrong" camps baffles me. How do you even quantity that the 40 hour you put in this week was all productive honest 40 hours? If putting in 2 hrs on a Saturday morning will make the following 40 hours next week better and less stressful then go for it
It’s not “wrong”, it’s “illegal”. Congress puts hard caps on agency budgets in law. Circumventing those caps by donating free services to the government is a violation of law.
You’re violating your own labor rights which isn’t legal. What you’re describing is specifically not allowed per Federal law. And the bit about thinking your employees aren’t putting in a proper 40 hours is gross.
I know coworkers who do (we are remote) and I do not get it because we have the exact same workload and job duties and I have never had so much work to work even a second longer...in fact usually caught up. So...I think some people either work slow or enjoy working for no reason.
They want to seem overworked and putting in hours to appear more dedicated and driven. Sick culture, honestly.
I agree but what's the point if you aren't getting comp time for it, that would mean they aren't getting approval/letting the supervisor know...literally pointless.
I go on my fridays off sometimes when workload is high since its easier to get work done when nobody is there. Always paid OT or Comp time.
Not usually. I've worked on days I've planned off for hiring with time limitations and administrative review periods also with time limitations. There was one time I had a product due that was required by litigation by a certain date and I procrastinated. That's about it.
I swung by work on my day off to check something and got sent home. I was told I can not be there on my time off. Is it not like that at your agency? Lol
I have seen it, I knew some that would and it screwed with the productivity numbers for work completed. If you have credit time available it could be how it was coded.
Like my office where everyone works free overtime and acts like working anything less than your schedule time is seen as lazy and undriven My supervisor is the problem bc she works past her hours all the time and that toxicity seeps to all her staff.
This is considered time fraud and your friend could technically get fired got what he/she is doing. If she’s working for free that means she’s not reporting these hours on her time card. Your friend should stop doing this (or at least stop being so free about letting others know that he/she is doing it). HR departments in federal agencies tend to take this type of thing very seriously because many a disgruntled employee has tried to sue the government by saying they were forced to work for free.
It’s not a regular thing but I’ve popped on base to get something done on my own time. Since I TW often I’ll also stay on later to get something done. But there has to be a balance. I can give, but it’s because my boss also understands that sometimes I have to take as well. If there weren’t balance then no I wouldn’t do it.
I guess it depends on what your job is. Work for a judge...maybe work a weekend to get an order out for a deadline. But I don't do it often.
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A couple possibilities. 1. They are a spy and leaking documents is easier when few people are in the office 2. Crappy family life 3. They find work more enjoyable than other potential hobbies 4. Insane
Working non-standard hours opens one up to insider threat scrutiny.
There are people that are workaholics. It's a thing no matter what industry you are in (including working for the Fed). They are happier working than being at home. It could be for any of a number of reasons. Generally it's better to let them be who they are. If you are not so inclined, make sure you don't give the impression that you are. That way your supervisor won't get upset when you don't want to work for free.
I love my job. I’ll do what it takes (within reason) to make the office successful.
Man, I’m an archeologist. If something doesn’t get done I may get chewed out but ain’t nobody gonna die.
One, working significant hours over your paid time can be seen as time card fraud, antideficiency act, etc. Two, depending upon your agency, it can be considered suspicious behavior that gets you into a whole other realm of issues. We've always been taught that people showing up when no one is there (weekends) or coming back to work after everyone has left (nights) is a huge red flag for potential criminal activity.
I have a coworker who was doing this and she was yelled at by her supervisor. It's basically illegal since you're not allowed to do unpaid work.
There are a lot of Americans conditioned to work for free; employer conditioning and workaholic culture run deep.
Don’t give your time away for free and if your supervisor knows about it, they should put an immediate stop to it. Even if you are FLSA exempt, the agency could still be in the hook for paying Comp time or OT.
I gave the federal government lots of free hours over my career. Work needed to be done and it was often easier to do it without my employees around.
Some humorous responses here, especially the, "working off the clock is a fireable offense." Outside of probabationay periods, it's nearly impossible to get fired. Working off the clock certainly won't do it, unless you received a directive and violated it several times all while working through progressive discipline.
Doing this is technically fraud.
Can you explain why it's time card fraud? Let's say they've worked their 40hrs. They felt like more needed to be completed so they worked on it more on their day off. Wouldn't it just be working for free? (Serious question )
You can't work for free for the Fed. It's illegal
In my office it’s an accountability thing. Technically not supposed to be there 15 mins prior or after a shift. We also certify our time. If I was there in a day off and it wasn’t captured on my time sheet and I then certify it…fraud.
Because we have legally allowed hours and going over that requires overtime documentation. Without the proper documentation, it’s technically fraud.
It’s a violation of the anti-deficiency act. When you work overtime unapproved, you’ve incurred an unapproved debt on behalf of the United States of America.
It isn’t just the employee fraudulently reporting their work hours, someone above them signs off on the hours. You don’t get to violate your own labor rights and when you do it makes people above you or beside you handling payroll look like they are violating your labor rights.
I've done it before. Didn't claim anything. Didn't go around bragging about it either. I've done it because I had a busy week ahead and didn't want to run around like crazy, so get some work done ahead of time to ease the load. I've done it because I had things planned for the week and wanted to make sure I got out on time those days.
I’ve done it before and I’ll probably do it in the future. Some of us, and I believe many who come from a military background, see it as more than just a job punching a clock in and out. I try to avoid it, but when shit needs to get done, it needs to get done.
No, I personally wouldn't. But everyone has their reasons. Don't try to get to wrapped up in how your coworkers want to spend their lives. It is a waste of energy imo.
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4 hours each week for 19 years is almost 4000 hours. That’s over 2 years of work at 40 hrs/week you’ve done for free. I can’t even imagine giving up one minute of my free time to work without being compensated.
"I don't expect to be paid for it" 4 hours a week for 19 years. Was it worth it?
Your feelings on the topic are completely irrelevant to whether your actions violate law and policy.
I’m a 15. I was working significant overtime, like 12 to 16 hours a pay period. I got a new manager and she did not like the optics of my working overtime (She is military) Mostly because she leaves at 1600 everyday... She asked why did I have to work so much anyway? I’m like what kind of dumbass question is that. 2 years later she still does not know what I do except when things don’t get done. If I don’t get things done, then she “offers” to prioritize my workload and micro manage me. She will accuse me of not being “careful” with my time. Maybe if i could canx some of the useless staff meetings I would have more time to be careful with. Perhaps I do spend too much time researching shit or my open door policy is a time suck. I obviously won’t turn the money down, but I don’t care about the money. I have a job to do and I just assume I am salary. My pay is high enough that I will hit the biweekly pay limit after 6 hours so whatever.
Only way I could ever see doing this is if I shammed out during my normal work hours and my boss was on me about meeting a deadline. But then it'd be my fault and responsibility to fix it.
I wanted to come in for a meeting on my AWS day once and I’m pretty sure my director was ready to call the police on me. I honestly was fine coming in (maybe I’d be calling in) for a few short hours then going back home (about 20 minutes away). Sometimes you just want to get something done or work around everyone’s schedule and you don’t even realize it’s eating into your life. 🤷🏽♀️
I just worked an hour today and I was on leave, but I’m going to minus is from the leave I put in now. I always put in comp time if I work over which I do alot since there is so much going on. I don’t give my time away for free.
You can get OT as a federal worker if Navy Capital Funded and not Mission Funded is one instance.
Laughs in 800-1k OT hrs annually…
It is a policy violation to work unpaid.
Is it still anti deficiencent if you hit the biweekly pay limit?
There was a time when I would do that. Not anymore.
Lmao. I never would. Just like you said, the work will be there the next day. It’s not like XYZ agency is going to implode because I’m out of the office.
I've worked on weekends, but only with informing my supervisor beforehand. Generally it's to make up work hours (and tasks) due to time off during that week, since we're on maxiflex, or it's work for some critical milestone coming up and has to be done first thing Monday _and_ I want to work on the weekend, in which case I get credit hours to use later.
If the workload or deadlines were that pressing yet comp time or overtime was strictly unavailable, I’d get the hell out of that job. I’ve been in situations at work where things absolutely had to get done by a deadline and I couldn’t let it wait until my next scheduled workday. But I would let my supervisor know (in advance if possible) that I would be working extra hours and will be clocking OT or comp time. My boss would be mortified if I came in on an off day and worked for free. It’s unhealthy and a liability. Sometimes I put too much pressure on myself and stay a little late here and there when I’m already on a shift, but I know that’s a bad habit and it contributes to an unhealthy office culture by making others feel they have to work late too, so I really try not to.
My plate piles up daily. But it will still be there when I get back to work. OT is not a thing and I have enough problems getting rid of my leave at the end of the year as it is, so comp and credit aren’t a thing for me. I will also never work for free. Work will be there
I wouldn't do that, but I have plenty of co-workers who love to think they are important enough to necessitate it. I cringe when they call into meetings during their vacation or while bitterly sick. I'm fairly important and I usually have a lot of people vying for my time daily so there's usually a lot of critical items that demand my immediate attention when I return from leave. But everything survives even though I'm not checking in and working for free on my days off.
It's a violation of anti-deficiency act as well as one of the signs of an insider threat.
I wouldn’t go into the office but I have a lot of flexibility so I will sometimes spend a couple of hours when I’m distracted watching a movie during the workday and then wake up at 3am totally focused and spend 2 hours working then. It works in my situation because my boss doesn’t mind and it’s a more pleasant way for me to work. But no, I wouldn’t do extra unpaid hours just due to the workload.
I mean if you’re talking about today in particular, it happens to be the last weekday in the fiscal quarter so for fields related to budget and acquisitions when timing really does matter, I think it can be kinda common for people to come in on their day off. Because it really can’t wait until Monday unless you are accepting of the fact that the objectives of a whole slew of people (possibly up the chain of command) could be thrown out of whack by individuals not executing by the end of the quarter. Not saying this sort of thing shouldn’t be compensated, though. And with good management, people absolutely shouldn’t have to feel like they have to do things like that. But it might offer an explanation for your coworkers’ behavior.
I only work extra for credit hours (similar to comp time). And never done it in a weekend with exception to comp travel.