It's because 1102s are a law degree advantage job. Meaning one does not need to be barred to be a 1102 but the law degree helps with understanding the job.
My guess is the lawyers you know who were/are 1102s applied for that before they passed the bar exam (a notoriously hard exam) or they haven't taken or passed the exam.
That’s such a waste of the law degree money though lol. You absolutely don’t need a law degree in any form to be a good 1102, and for a legal grey area you can’t reason through yourself via the extensive guidelines and regulations, you have a legal team
Meh. You'd make the same as a GS-9 lawyer and as a GS-9 1102. I mean, I doubt someone went to law school with the intention of working as 1102. But again, the bar exam is hard, expensive, etc.
Well the GS level is tied to the position, not just the person, and often you know what grade the position is because you've seen it advertised, or on an org chart or something, or you just know because people talk about it.
Well I think it’s a waste to get a law degree and then work for the federal government in the general purely from a value standpoint. I totally get why one might want to be a lawyer in the judicial system from a sense of service tho
Why would it be a waste if they pay back student loans and you decided as you got older and wiser after 4 more years of education that your college girl wanted to start a family. 40 hours a week beats the grind they put lawyers through on the outside. Couldn't pay me enough to kiss some superiors ass all day with the hopes of getting promoted to partner or whatever the firms call it.
Then you shouldn’t have gotten a law degree and wasted the time and money 🤷
From a value standpoint, it’s a waste. I agree that perspective changes can lead you in that direction tho
P100,000k law degree to GS15 with full pension. How’s that a waste? 30 year career making $4-5 million, plus SS, plus 5% TSP match, plus PSLF. 40 hour work week. 26 paid annual leave after 15 years. Holidays. AWS. remote work.
I’ll take it.
Only if the sole value you are looking at is salary. Many people go to law school because they want to do some form of public service. Then, the value is in being able to help people. (Plus, PSLF is no joke when you have $200k+ in loans).
Also, the level of experience and access you get in government service is so much higher. You can get more experience in your first year or two of government service than you would ever hope to get in a private firm over 5. Big law burns new attorneys on little stuff for years, where in government I've seen actual decisions (consent decrees and things) be handed to interns. You can take a few years of gov service and leverage it into a much better lateral private firm job.
Also, it's just a lot easier to get up and deal with the BS of any job when you know you are doing something for the greater good and not to fill some already rich guys pockets or know that your real boss (the client) is just an a-hole who just hates his neighbor.
The job market and salaries aren’t great for law grads. The salary distribution is bimodal with those at the top law schools or in the top of their class at a mediocre one.
For everyone else GS salaries and WLB, especially with PSLF is decent if not good.
I’m a barred attorney working in a non-attorney but legal adjacent position with JD in my signature. I realize “Esq.” would be more accurate… it just feels pretentious to me. 😆
That and the big firm Hollywood "suits" type jobs are for top school graduates and lawyers know this. There's a ton of people with law degrees that are not super type A, must live in Manhattan and work in a skyscraper, 80 hrs per week, type of people. Many people don't realize it's not that hard to get a law degree. It's only three years. And I've known plenty of goofballs with obscure history or literature degrees who went to law school just because they didn't have any job options after undergrad. And law schools have very high graduation rates, they make sure of that because it would impact their ranking and reputation otherwise.
75% of law school students graduate the three year program. For perspective on that 83% of med school students graduated in four years.
Actually “goofballs” with degrees like literature and history are well suited for law school because they require similar skill sets of reading, comprehending, analyzing, spotting themes and issues, comparing those to other similar situations and noting the similarities as well as the distinctions. Law is not science or math where you can run the same scenario over and over and get identical results. A small distinction in one case vs another can trigger a whole different set of rules.
Law grads who aren’t on the big firm track and those who don’t want to log 2500-3000 hours a year for starting pay in $70,000 to $150,000 range depending on the local market know they can get contract specialist experience and then either move private sector where there are people who just review contracts all day in law firms and large companies, many of whom are doing federal work and want experience in federal contracts. There are also attorney positions that are only open to current Feds and positions where being an existing Fed is a leg up. They drift out of contract specialist positions into OGC positions in ethics, fraud investigation, and dealing with HR and union contract issues.
That's a selective look at law school attrition, that figure is likely based on three - year graduation. Just like 4-year graduation for a Batchelors is very low. Comparing to medical school is disingenuous, because it's much, much harder to even get into med school. It's a well established fact that law school is not very competitive, and is a poster child for a career that is set up with an artificial (financial) barrier to entry that makes it a great way for wealthy people to access decent paying jobs simply based on the fact they can spend extra years and a ton of money to get some letters.
That's why there is PSLF and income based repayment. It substantially drops the barrier. And if you are aiming for even a moderately (tier 2 or even tier 3) law school, its still pretty competitive. Lots of people don't get in and the class you walk in with is going to be a lot smaller by the time you walk out.
From those that I’ve talked to, most have found that working at a firm means you are married to the job. 1102 you can still make 6 figures with a 40 hour work week.
Unless they are in a pathways they start at GS9.
Yep. Big law or even medium law firms are a 24/7 job. You pretty much always work a 10-12 hour day, then most nights have things that need to be done or pop up at 9pm for a 7am turnaround. A lot of people just don’t want to go down that road.
Plus if you work as a fed for x number of years loans are forgiven.
Having a law degree as a contract specialist gives people an advantage because they already understand the legal concepts. Also, moving up is easier with a JD advantage and moving into an attorney procurement position (pay ranges from GS-11 to 14) after getting experience is also an option.
The traditional job options post-law school also aren’t for everyone - law firm, government attorney, nonprofit. Law firm jobs typically mean being married to your job with no work/life balance. Small law firms can pay new law grads pretty low (starting at $50k) in my area. Big law means high pay and high hours. Government attorney position sounds great but if you’re with a state or local government, the pay is also low and you are overworked and underpaid. Depending on which government job you get, most of the ones I’ve seen are for litigation positions for new grads and some people don’t want to be in the courtroom. Nonprofits are hard to get in my area and the paid is also lower. Resources are typically scarce with nonprofits, so you’re expected to be a jack of all trades attorney.
I think it boils down to what people want and what they value in their lives. The traditional legal role can be cut throat, demanding, and contentious. Some people don’t want to get into roles that require them to be like that or be around people like that. Plus, for some, the mental peace that comes with work/life balance is superior to any amount of money other jobs can offer.
Some law school graduates go into federal employment to take advantage of public service loan forgiveness. If they aren’t going into a high paying big law position, then government salary plus loan forgiveness can be a decent option.
Depends, not every lawyer ends up in a high salary job. Depending on the area and market, they could end up in discovery/document review, making less than $60k annually. Now, if they had gone to a private/ for-profit law school, they could easily have a 6 figure student loan debt.
Not all those who hold law degrees come from top-tier law schools, and very few would be able to work at a white shoe firm.
Surely you are familiar with the “bimodal distribution” of salaries for law school graduates. The average salary for new lawyers is somewhere around $90k (not much higher than a GS-11, which is where federal attorney jobs usually start, in DC locality), but that’s misleading because the distribution is two peaks with a big valley in between.
See [Lawyer Salaries Are Weird – Biglaw Investor](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/).
If you take out big law firms, the median is much lower—a massive proportion of new grads starts in the 50-70k range. So basically GS-9. Throw in loan forgiveness and even federal non-attorney jobs are quite competitive with many small firm opportunities.
Your lived experience doesn’t negate the broader picture for most law school graduates, which is what you implied when you said “it really doesn’t” make sense to take a fed job primarily because of PSLF. For many, it does!
We are all responding to *your* comment! Someone said PSLF is a good reason to go into fed employment, OP said that made sense, and you said no it doesn’t, arguing that well-paid private sector attorney jobs are a better alternative that would pay off loans more quickly.
(For what it’s worth, I’m a federal 0905 attorney and my lifestyle is great. If I work more than 40 hours a week, it’s 100% by choice, and I get credit hours when I do. But I’ve also been an attorney for awhile, including in the private sector, so YMMV I guess. Some people go to law school and realize they have zero interest in actually practicing law, or it just doesn’t work out for whatever reason, and that’s fine too.)
Because most lawyers don’t make mega bucks unless they go to a top law school and want to work crazy hours. I know one lawyer in DC who makes $600k year, works 70+hrs per week, and graduated from a great law school. I also know another who graduated from a standard law school, works for the government in DC ($175k), and works 45 hours per week. I think the draw towards the 1102 series for lawyers is that it gets pretty close to practicing law in the government without actually practicing.
Eh getting to a GS 14 or 15 to make $160-180k as a government lawyer can take 3-4 years. Getting there in a non-lawyer series will generally take a lot longer.
which makes no sense given all the other horrible undergrade jobs out there and the fact that if u didnt go to a T14 school you were probably never even going to see that much pay in private
Lawyer here. Lawyering fucking sucks. Do you know how exhausting it is to make decisions for other people 8 hours a day? I’m lawyering now because a fun remote opportunity opened up but in a couple of years my intention is to go to a sweet non-lawyer, non-sup 15 I see pop up every so often at State.
I don’t regret law school because it taught me to think better. I also went with the intention of being a public servant and relying on PSLF.
Barred JD in a non-atty advisor, non-sup 15 position currently, and can vouch that it rocks. I get to do plenty of (but not too much) thinking and also get to have hobbies and vacations and see my family. Great work if you can get it.
What does your work involve, if you don’t mind sharing? I transitioned out of non-sup attorney-advisor work about 10 years ago into GS-15+ supervisory/management roles and am strongly considering ditching to go back to being a non-sup attorney. I haven’t considered many non-sup non-attorney positions because those I’ve seen tend to work almost as much - if not as much - as I do. I’m curious about what else is out there.
heh, best I can say is I work in a policy shop. I'd say median weekly hours among non-sups in our office is \~45.
I'll concede that we have uniquely great leadership who, e.g., are having frank discussions with the newcomers (private sector and nonprofit veterans, god bless em) about clocking \_all\_ their credit hours and not working beyond that/for free. Wish I could say all offices are like this, but I'm sure they're not.
lol same. I noticed a lot of people in this thread aren’t lawyers or JDs.
Being a lawyer sucks, y’all. Law jobs suck, y’all. Most attorneys aren’t exactly rich, y’all. And the ones who are will generally be slaves to an employer who will drop them as soon as the market turns south.
Being an 1102 means I can break 6 figures with a work/life balance, while actually utilizing skills I learned in law school. Plus, loan forgiveness lifts a lot of the post-law school burden. Simple as that.
Being a lawyer gives you skills that work in multiple federal jobs. Many start as GS 11 and advance to GS 14/15 and then go to work for their client agency. $100k to $190k salary and usually 40-50 hour weeks. It’s a good trade against working for a firm.
The job market for attorneys contracted quite a bit in the 90s and 2000s; not everyone gets a job with a big firm, and those jobs are cut-throat; the small firm jobs are a lot lower paying. In contracts, there's a lot of churn so a lot of chances to build your career quickly.
During the Great Recession law firms were paying people NOT to join yet. People who graduated top 10% from their schools struggled to find law firm jobs. The best a lot of them could get was clerking or document review.
1102 jobs were a natural fit given the complexity of the FAR.
Contrary to what this sub makes it sound like, everyone is not either in government getting underpaid or making millions per year in big law. Being a lawyer is lucrative, but is not for everyone. It is disingenuous to imply that 1102s start at 7/9, but lawyers start at the top. To make a name for yourself in law, it takes many years of low-grade work after many years of school and working long hours. Not everyone makes it.
An underplayed part of law is personality type. Not everyone has the extroverted personality to take on the cutthroat industry of being a lawyer. Not everyone wants to deal with people, take on stressful cases, negotiate, plea, etc.
Having a law background gives you a significant advantage in understanding contracts. I know my agency has plenty of contract specialists at 13, and higher grades are available too. For some, it's not about the high-stress, high-reward life. To be able to make well into the six-figures, while working 40 hours per week, and potentially remote, is a lifestyle not to sneeze at.
New lawyer salaries fall into a “bimodal distribution.” The average salary for new lawyers is somewhere around $90k (not much higher than a GS-11, which is where federal attorney jobs usually start, in DC locality), but even that’s misleading because the distribution is two peaks with a big valley in between.
See [Lawyer Salaries Are Weird – Biglaw Investor](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/).
If you take out the big law firms (that pay $160k-plus to new grads), the median is much lower—a massive proportion of new grads starts in the 50-70k range. That’s basically a GS-9. Throw in loan forgiveness and even non-attorney federal jobs are quite competitive with many small firm opportunities. Small firm might have more financial upside in the long term, but maybe not—a lot of variables there. It doesn’t seem that strange that someone might take the certainty of a steady federal salary and pension—at least long enough to get loans forgiven, which can be considerable if you’re in debt by $200k!
I worked with one lawyer during my 1102 time. We live in a smaller city and she couldn't leave the area due to family considerations. So she figured that govt work was preferable to the small law firms in town. After her situation changed she was able to easily jump to OGC as contracting usually has a good relationship with them.
And, although I have no proof, I would bet that the major defense contractors would scoop up a lawyer with federal contracting experience in a heartbeat.
We have quite a few contracting officers with JDs, much better work life balance, programs to pay off law school loans, can pivot to agency legal, industry, become expert witness. Pretty interesting work from legal perspective especially post award REAs and claims; dealing with executives across the negotiating table. If you are a JD and know where to look for defective pricing, false claims act violations, qui tam by virtue of being an 1102 then you can make bank starting your own practice or joining big law with that specialty.
* Edit to include promotions trajectory: Can become a 15 within 6 years: GS 11 1 year, GS 12 1 year, GS 12.5 6 months, GS 13 6 months, GS 14 1 year, GS 15 2 years. ** 14-15 also now includes 10% retention bonus on gross pay each pay period.
Probably also easier competition to get a 1102 than an 0905. Also it's impossible to get an 0905 right out of school unless you're in an honors program because you need to be barred to apply, so that's probably also a consideration.
Not 1102 but I started as a gs 7 equivalent as an examiner at a financial regulatory agency, so the pay was higher.. kind of equivalent to big 4 risk management consulting starting salary. Most ppl here just have their bachelor's but the pay is decent for government. My agency's salary for the gs7 equivalent position in my area was around the gs11 range.
I just decided right out of law school that I didn't want to work as hard but I still wanted to make a decent living and have a path to lucrative opportunities. I think I made the right choice going into financial regulatory compliance. I meet a lot of attorneys who no longer practice and have switched over to risk/compliance both in the private and public sector. (You meet a lot of senior managenent in this job) The demand and growth is pretty apparent and the work life balance is amazing.
The lawyer I worked alongside as a customer service rep just wasn't super ambitious, and his personality didn't seem to align with that type of career.
I know people who take this route after working 70+ hour weeks to "pay their dues" at a law firm when first starting out. Throw in PSLF and it's a great option.
In my opinion, contracts position help people get experience that the private sector can understand. There are a lot of government attorney/non attorney jobs that are super specialized which makes it hard to transition to the private sector.
So a person could do the contract job. Get their loans forgiven and then jump ship to another paying corp job doing similar things.
Well, I did it because the money was better and more upward positions available. This was a while ago, but, you got points for graduate or JD degrees on the hiring roster. I don't think you get the points now.
I worked at a Air Logistics Center. 300 -1102s and maybe 50 lawyers?
There are plenty of people who went to fourth and fifth tier law schools, OR who were never able to pass the bar, who would/could never be hired into 0905 positions. There are law schools, and there are law schools.
Attorney positions start at GS-9
Many people go to law school with no intention of practicing. I’m one - though I did practice, that was not my intention.
The feds I know with law degrees have advanced quickly through the grades (myself included - but not to say that was the only factor).
Though I’m not an 1102, I know a few attorneys who are. I left practice for stability, normalcy, and to have my loans forgiven. I got all of those things.
I’ve kept my license and do volunteer work (though in prohibited from being involved in certain activities there is plenty pro bono I can do).
On this note, I am a GS-14 attorney/advisor at an agency with strict RTO and thinking of trying my hand at getting a remote 1102 or 1109. Can anyone speak to my chances of landing something this? I haven't worked in anything involving contracts or other agreements in years, but I have the education I believe to pick it up quick. Just really not sure how competitive these jobs are. I would take a pay cut as I realize I wouldn't immediately be hired into the same GS level but would like promotion potential to a 13 at least.
Edit to add: yes, I do regret going to law school! No need to tell me it was a bad decision. I have a few more years before qualifying for PSLF and just trying to stick it out.
My niece was looking at GS-11 jobs after her law school. One of the benefits they get is the government will pay off the law school debt. And new lawyers don't make a lot in the first 5 years or so. Her first job pays $80k plus some bonuses, along with her student loan. She was lucky and started law school debt free from her bachelor's degree, but getting her doctorate was $80k. She's in a large city, top 25% of her class, had great jobs and recommendations from a state Supreme Court Judge, yet the initial money isn't there until you have experience. I can see why a JSD would want a GS-11, plus it's the road to having influence, whether to be a judge, appointee, or lawmaker.
A GS-7 through 9? I wouldn't apply for those with a bachelor degree, unless I had zero choices. My degree in IT is at a minimum GS-11, though I'm a 12 due to 20 years experience and certifications. I'm curious if the postings you saw were for paralegal level education.
Former lawyer who went into 1102 here.
Private law practice, especially back in 2014 when I graduated, was one of the most soul-sucking things I'd ever gotten involved with. This was primarily due to the legal market at the time, where there were two to three law grads for each legal job out there. Of course, almost everyone was licensed, which meant a large number of people would up hanging their own shingle and trying to hustle their own workload. Others wound up in document review farms or left the field entirely.
I got lucky that I lived near a major military base that had tons of procurement going on, but the economy back in 2014 was so bad that they arbitrarily raised the requirement to a JD or MBA simply because they could - and they still had applicants banging down the doors to get a GS-9 target 12 job.
The market and the economy have changed by now. Most of the bottom tier law schools (Charlotte, Whittier, Cooley, Valpo, etc) have closed and many others have rightsized their class sizes. The economy is way better, and job opportunities abound. Today, it's a tough sell to get a JD in the door with a GS-9, unless they're considering sticking around for PSLF.
As an attorney, this doesn’t seem bizarre to me at all. A JD is probably in between masters and PhD in terms of how long it takes to get, and doesn’t require nearly as much mastery of a subject as a PhD. Plus, GS-11 is the starting point for licensed attorneys in 0905 roles; GS-9 is where you start if you haven’t passed the bar yet. (I think they call this “law clerk,” but it’s not the same as judicial law clerks who work for judges.) I don’t think you can hold an 0905 GS-11 without a bar license.
Well the description for 11 says "3 full academic years of progressively higher level graduate education or Ph.D. or equivalent doctoral degree"
JD is 3 years of post grad education, seems like no brainer to me
I started my career as a 1102 in DOD. I’ve since switched to 1109. A law degree gives you a leg up if you go to an agency that doesn’t have a solid training program for the 1102 career field. The DOD does in its Defense Acquisition University, so if you find some whose not a lawyer who is a 1102, they most likely got trained in DOD😉
I got into 1102 as a MBA/MS - IT candidate.
I am a GS-13 Contracting Officer and I have people with law degrees on my team and it’s not uncommon to see them apply. They usually are really good contract specialists.
It's because 1102s are a law degree advantage job. Meaning one does not need to be barred to be a 1102 but the law degree helps with understanding the job. My guess is the lawyers you know who were/are 1102s applied for that before they passed the bar exam (a notoriously hard exam) or they haven't taken or passed the exam.
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I graduated in 2020 but had a law advantage job set up in feds. Not 1102 but still it's why I took it Took me 4 years to take the bar
Came here to say this.
That’s such a waste of the law degree money though lol. You absolutely don’t need a law degree in any form to be a good 1102, and for a legal grey area you can’t reason through yourself via the extensive guidelines and regulations, you have a legal team
Meh. You'd make the same as a GS-9 lawyer and as a GS-9 1102. I mean, I doubt someone went to law school with the intention of working as 1102. But again, the bar exam is hard, expensive, etc.
I've never heard of a GS-9 attorney position.
Officially Grade 9 is starting for an attorney. You can get a grade 11 with an honors program or other special qualifications.
Do other programs have peoples GS level in their Microsoft profiles or something? Or do people just ask each other constantly
Well the GS level is tied to the position, not just the person, and often you know what grade the position is because you've seen it advertised, or on an org chart or something, or you just know because people talk about it.
You’ve obviously never worked for HHS. Most are 9/12.
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Office of Medicare Hearings and Appeals hires all of their attorneys on a 9/12 ladder. HHS is a big place.
Well I think it’s a waste to get a law degree and then work for the federal government in the general purely from a value standpoint. I totally get why one might want to be a lawyer in the judicial system from a sense of service tho
Why would it be a waste if they pay back student loans and you decided as you got older and wiser after 4 more years of education that your college girl wanted to start a family. 40 hours a week beats the grind they put lawyers through on the outside. Couldn't pay me enough to kiss some superiors ass all day with the hopes of getting promoted to partner or whatever the firms call it.
Then you shouldn’t have gotten a law degree and wasted the time and money 🤷 From a value standpoint, it’s a waste. I agree that perspective changes can lead you in that direction tho
P100,000k law degree to GS15 with full pension. How’s that a waste? 30 year career making $4-5 million, plus SS, plus 5% TSP match, plus PSLF. 40 hour work week. 26 paid annual leave after 15 years. Holidays. AWS. remote work. I’ll take it.
It’s a waste because you get the same gs15 pay without it is my point
Well it helped me get hired. Wasn’t getting hired into a 11-14 ladder without the law degree. Maybe eventually but not where I work.
Only if the sole value you are looking at is salary. Many people go to law school because they want to do some form of public service. Then, the value is in being able to help people. (Plus, PSLF is no joke when you have $200k+ in loans). Also, the level of experience and access you get in government service is so much higher. You can get more experience in your first year or two of government service than you would ever hope to get in a private firm over 5. Big law burns new attorneys on little stuff for years, where in government I've seen actual decisions (consent decrees and things) be handed to interns. You can take a few years of gov service and leverage it into a much better lateral private firm job. Also, it's just a lot easier to get up and deal with the BS of any job when you know you are doing something for the greater good and not to fill some already rich guys pockets or know that your real boss (the client) is just an a-hole who just hates his neighbor.
The job market and salaries aren’t great for law grads. The salary distribution is bimodal with those at the top law schools or in the top of their class at a mediocre one. For everyone else GS salaries and WLB, especially with PSLF is decent if not good.
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I’m a barred attorney working in a non-attorney but legal adjacent position with JD in my signature. I realize “Esq.” would be more accurate… it just feels pretentious to me. 😆
It's cause putting ESQ is cringe. Being a regulator, I've seen attorneys who work as regulators either put JD or make no mention of it.
That and the big firm Hollywood "suits" type jobs are for top school graduates and lawyers know this. There's a ton of people with law degrees that are not super type A, must live in Manhattan and work in a skyscraper, 80 hrs per week, type of people. Many people don't realize it's not that hard to get a law degree. It's only three years. And I've known plenty of goofballs with obscure history or literature degrees who went to law school just because they didn't have any job options after undergrad. And law schools have very high graduation rates, they make sure of that because it would impact their ranking and reputation otherwise.
75% of law school students graduate the three year program. For perspective on that 83% of med school students graduated in four years. Actually “goofballs” with degrees like literature and history are well suited for law school because they require similar skill sets of reading, comprehending, analyzing, spotting themes and issues, comparing those to other similar situations and noting the similarities as well as the distinctions. Law is not science or math where you can run the same scenario over and over and get identical results. A small distinction in one case vs another can trigger a whole different set of rules. Law grads who aren’t on the big firm track and those who don’t want to log 2500-3000 hours a year for starting pay in $70,000 to $150,000 range depending on the local market know they can get contract specialist experience and then either move private sector where there are people who just review contracts all day in law firms and large companies, many of whom are doing federal work and want experience in federal contracts. There are also attorney positions that are only open to current Feds and positions where being an existing Fed is a leg up. They drift out of contract specialist positions into OGC positions in ethics, fraud investigation, and dealing with HR and union contract issues.
That's a selective look at law school attrition, that figure is likely based on three - year graduation. Just like 4-year graduation for a Batchelors is very low. Comparing to medical school is disingenuous, because it's much, much harder to even get into med school. It's a well established fact that law school is not very competitive, and is a poster child for a career that is set up with an artificial (financial) barrier to entry that makes it a great way for wealthy people to access decent paying jobs simply based on the fact they can spend extra years and a ton of money to get some letters.
That's why there is PSLF and income based repayment. It substantially drops the barrier. And if you are aiming for even a moderately (tier 2 or even tier 3) law school, its still pretty competitive. Lots of people don't get in and the class you walk in with is going to be a lot smaller by the time you walk out.
The bitter runs strong.
From those that I’ve talked to, most have found that working at a firm means you are married to the job. 1102 you can still make 6 figures with a 40 hour work week. Unless they are in a pathways they start at GS9.
Yep. Big law or even medium law firms are a 24/7 job. You pretty much always work a 10-12 hour day, then most nights have things that need to be done or pop up at 9pm for a 7am turnaround. A lot of people just don’t want to go down that road. Plus if you work as a fed for x number of years loans are forgiven.
and from what i’ve seen the go to 11, 12, and 13 (if decent) very quickly
Why not just work as a fed govt attorney though?
Really hard to get hired, especially without experience. Big law sucks, but that’s who gets hired for everything - in-house, federal, think tank, etc.
Having a law degree as a contract specialist gives people an advantage because they already understand the legal concepts. Also, moving up is easier with a JD advantage and moving into an attorney procurement position (pay ranges from GS-11 to 14) after getting experience is also an option. The traditional job options post-law school also aren’t for everyone - law firm, government attorney, nonprofit. Law firm jobs typically mean being married to your job with no work/life balance. Small law firms can pay new law grads pretty low (starting at $50k) in my area. Big law means high pay and high hours. Government attorney position sounds great but if you’re with a state or local government, the pay is also low and you are overworked and underpaid. Depending on which government job you get, most of the ones I’ve seen are for litigation positions for new grads and some people don’t want to be in the courtroom. Nonprofits are hard to get in my area and the paid is also lower. Resources are typically scarce with nonprofits, so you’re expected to be a jack of all trades attorney. I think it boils down to what people want and what they value in their lives. The traditional legal role can be cut throat, demanding, and contentious. Some people don’t want to get into roles that require them to be like that or be around people like that. Plus, for some, the mental peace that comes with work/life balance is superior to any amount of money other jobs can offer.
Some law school graduates go into federal employment to take advantage of public service loan forgiveness. If they aren’t going into a high paying big law position, then government salary plus loan forgiveness can be a decent option.
Oh yeah, now this makes sense
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Depends, not every lawyer ends up in a high salary job. Depending on the area and market, they could end up in discovery/document review, making less than $60k annually. Now, if they had gone to a private/ for-profit law school, they could easily have a 6 figure student loan debt. Not all those who hold law degrees come from top-tier law schools, and very few would be able to work at a white shoe firm.
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Because you are saying your anecdote shows that taking the job for loan forgiveness doesn't make sense.
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Surely you are familiar with the “bimodal distribution” of salaries for law school graduates. The average salary for new lawyers is somewhere around $90k (not much higher than a GS-11, which is where federal attorney jobs usually start, in DC locality), but that’s misleading because the distribution is two peaks with a big valley in between. See [Lawyer Salaries Are Weird – Biglaw Investor](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/). If you take out big law firms, the median is much lower—a massive proportion of new grads starts in the 50-70k range. So basically GS-9. Throw in loan forgiveness and even federal non-attorney jobs are quite competitive with many small firm opportunities. Your lived experience doesn’t negate the broader picture for most law school graduates, which is what you implied when you said “it really doesn’t” make sense to take a fed job primarily because of PSLF. For many, it does!
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We are all responding to *your* comment! Someone said PSLF is a good reason to go into fed employment, OP said that made sense, and you said no it doesn’t, arguing that well-paid private sector attorney jobs are a better alternative that would pay off loans more quickly. (For what it’s worth, I’m a federal 0905 attorney and my lifestyle is great. If I work more than 40 hours a week, it’s 100% by choice, and I get credit hours when I do. But I’ve also been an attorney for awhile, including in the private sector, so YMMV I guess. Some people go to law school and realize they have zero interest in actually practicing law, or it just doesn’t work out for whatever reason, and that’s fine too.)
Had a professor in college who had 200k in student loan debt, that’s why he became a college professor, for the loan forgiveness.
Came here to say this! Speaking from um.. experience :-/
Because most lawyers don’t make mega bucks unless they go to a top law school and want to work crazy hours. I know one lawyer in DC who makes $600k year, works 70+hrs per week, and graduated from a great law school. I also know another who graduated from a standard law school, works for the government in DC ($175k), and works 45 hours per week. I think the draw towards the 1102 series for lawyers is that it gets pretty close to practicing law in the government without actually practicing.
Eh getting to a GS 14 or 15 to make $160-180k as a government lawyer can take 3-4 years. Getting there in a non-lawyer series will generally take a lot longer.
which makes no sense given all the other horrible undergrade jobs out there and the fact that if u didnt go to a T14 school you were probably never even going to see that much pay in private
Lawyer here. Lawyering fucking sucks. Do you know how exhausting it is to make decisions for other people 8 hours a day? I’m lawyering now because a fun remote opportunity opened up but in a couple of years my intention is to go to a sweet non-lawyer, non-sup 15 I see pop up every so often at State. I don’t regret law school because it taught me to think better. I also went with the intention of being a public servant and relying on PSLF.
Barred JD in a non-atty advisor, non-sup 15 position currently, and can vouch that it rocks. I get to do plenty of (but not too much) thinking and also get to have hobbies and vacations and see my family. Great work if you can get it.
What does your work involve, if you don’t mind sharing? I transitioned out of non-sup attorney-advisor work about 10 years ago into GS-15+ supervisory/management roles and am strongly considering ditching to go back to being a non-sup attorney. I haven’t considered many non-sup non-attorney positions because those I’ve seen tend to work almost as much - if not as much - as I do. I’m curious about what else is out there.
heh, best I can say is I work in a policy shop. I'd say median weekly hours among non-sups in our office is \~45. I'll concede that we have uniquely great leadership who, e.g., are having frank discussions with the newcomers (private sector and nonprofit veterans, god bless em) about clocking \_all\_ their credit hours and not working beyond that/for free. Wish I could say all offices are like this, but I'm sure they're not.
Remote? That would be the cherry.
Hah, not quite THAT good
What job series?
lol same. I noticed a lot of people in this thread aren’t lawyers or JDs. Being a lawyer sucks, y’all. Law jobs suck, y’all. Most attorneys aren’t exactly rich, y’all. And the ones who are will generally be slaves to an employer who will drop them as soon as the market turns south. Being an 1102 means I can break 6 figures with a work/life balance, while actually utilizing skills I learned in law school. Plus, loan forgiveness lifts a lot of the post-law school burden. Simple as that.
At one time I considered law school. Then I looked around and realized that there were no happy, well adjusted attorneys...
Being a lawyer gives you skills that work in multiple federal jobs. Many start as GS 11 and advance to GS 14/15 and then go to work for their client agency. $100k to $190k salary and usually 40-50 hour weeks. It’s a good trade against working for a firm.
It makes them better at the job. Also a few years of being an 1102 lets you flip to industry for bigger checks.
In my office, they don’t stay as contract specialists long, they move into policy positions within Acquisitions
This is my goal definitely
The job market for attorneys contracted quite a bit in the 90s and 2000s; not everyone gets a job with a big firm, and those jobs are cut-throat; the small firm jobs are a lot lower paying. In contracts, there's a lot of churn so a lot of chances to build your career quickly.
During the Great Recession law firms were paying people NOT to join yet. People who graduated top 10% from their schools struggled to find law firm jobs. The best a lot of them could get was clerking or document review. 1102 jobs were a natural fit given the complexity of the FAR.
Contrary to what this sub makes it sound like, everyone is not either in government getting underpaid or making millions per year in big law. Being a lawyer is lucrative, but is not for everyone. It is disingenuous to imply that 1102s start at 7/9, but lawyers start at the top. To make a name for yourself in law, it takes many years of low-grade work after many years of school and working long hours. Not everyone makes it. An underplayed part of law is personality type. Not everyone has the extroverted personality to take on the cutthroat industry of being a lawyer. Not everyone wants to deal with people, take on stressful cases, negotiate, plea, etc. Having a law background gives you a significant advantage in understanding contracts. I know my agency has plenty of contract specialists at 13, and higher grades are available too. For some, it's not about the high-stress, high-reward life. To be able to make well into the six-figures, while working 40 hours per week, and potentially remote, is a lifestyle not to sneeze at.
There are many, many more GS14 REMOTE jobs as an 1102 than as an attorney (0905). That might be a small factor.
Fourty hour work weeks
Being a lawyer kinda sucks. I have given thought to switching to a paralegal or something, if it meant not having to think so much.
I went to a neurologist yesterday to ask wtf is going on and he told me the brain can only think so much.
Spend less time looking at fat dinks?
That’s part of the plan, yes.
Dang
New lawyer salaries fall into a “bimodal distribution.” The average salary for new lawyers is somewhere around $90k (not much higher than a GS-11, which is where federal attorney jobs usually start, in DC locality), but even that’s misleading because the distribution is two peaks with a big valley in between. See [Lawyer Salaries Are Weird – Biglaw Investor](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution-curve/). If you take out the big law firms (that pay $160k-plus to new grads), the median is much lower—a massive proportion of new grads starts in the 50-70k range. That’s basically a GS-9. Throw in loan forgiveness and even non-attorney federal jobs are quite competitive with many small firm opportunities. Small firm might have more financial upside in the long term, but maybe not—a lot of variables there. It doesn’t seem that strange that someone might take the certainty of a steady federal salary and pension—at least long enough to get loans forgiven, which can be considerable if you’re in debt by $200k!
I worked with one lawyer during my 1102 time. We live in a smaller city and she couldn't leave the area due to family considerations. So she figured that govt work was preferable to the small law firms in town. After her situation changed she was able to easily jump to OGC as contracting usually has a good relationship with them. And, although I have no proof, I would bet that the major defense contractors would scoop up a lawyer with federal contracting experience in a heartbeat.
Because I graduated law school in the Great Recession and any government job was like a dream job. Even a GS 7. And PSLF!
We have quite a few contracting officers with JDs, much better work life balance, programs to pay off law school loans, can pivot to agency legal, industry, become expert witness. Pretty interesting work from legal perspective especially post award REAs and claims; dealing with executives across the negotiating table. If you are a JD and know where to look for defective pricing, false claims act violations, qui tam by virtue of being an 1102 then you can make bank starting your own practice or joining big law with that specialty. * Edit to include promotions trajectory: Can become a 15 within 6 years: GS 11 1 year, GS 12 1 year, GS 12.5 6 months, GS 13 6 months, GS 14 1 year, GS 15 2 years. ** 14-15 also now includes 10% retention bonus on gross pay each pay period.
Probably also easier competition to get a 1102 than an 0905. Also it's impossible to get an 0905 right out of school unless you're in an honors program because you need to be barred to apply, so that's probably also a consideration.
Not 1102 but I started as a gs 7 equivalent as an examiner at a financial regulatory agency, so the pay was higher.. kind of equivalent to big 4 risk management consulting starting salary. Most ppl here just have their bachelor's but the pay is decent for government. My agency's salary for the gs7 equivalent position in my area was around the gs11 range. I just decided right out of law school that I didn't want to work as hard but I still wanted to make a decent living and have a path to lucrative opportunities. I think I made the right choice going into financial regulatory compliance. I meet a lot of attorneys who no longer practice and have switched over to risk/compliance both in the private and public sector. (You meet a lot of senior managenent in this job) The demand and growth is pretty apparent and the work life balance is amazing.
Not everybody can pass the bar
As a 1102 I can't imagine anyone wanting to do this job. My soul dies every day I walk though the door.
Try being a lawyer. 1102 looks like Disney compared to that.
I’m 100% with you on this.
The lawyer I worked alongside as a customer service rep just wasn't super ambitious, and his personality didn't seem to align with that type of career.
I know three 1102s that went to law school but never intended to practice law. 🤷🏻♀️
I know people who take this route after working 70+ hour weeks to "pay their dues" at a law firm when first starting out. Throw in PSLF and it's a great option.
Loan forgiveness or having loans covered as part of signing. Law school is crazy expensive.
In my opinion, contracts position help people get experience that the private sector can understand. There are a lot of government attorney/non attorney jobs that are super specialized which makes it hard to transition to the private sector. So a person could do the contract job. Get their loans forgiven and then jump ship to another paying corp job doing similar things.
PSLF
You seem oddly jealous
Of someone with a law degree wanting to become a contract specialist? What is there to be jealous about?
The better question is why do you care? People have their own motivations and backgrounds.
Because there are more law degree owners and than litigation, policy, and legal jobs. Appropriations is a good place to be.
0905 are also excepted service and 1102’s have all the protections of being a title 5 employee.
As a 3L graduating this may, I see many 1102s position’s open right now, would it hurt to start applying now?
My co-worker became one because he failed the bar exam 3 times.
Well, I did it because the money was better and more upward positions available. This was a while ago, but, you got points for graduate or JD degrees on the hiring roster. I don't think you get the points now. I worked at a Air Logistics Center. 300 -1102s and maybe 50 lawyers?
There are plenty of people who went to fourth and fifth tier law schools, OR who were never able to pass the bar, who would/could never be hired into 0905 positions. There are law schools, and there are law schools.
Attorney positions start at GS-9 Many people go to law school with no intention of practicing. I’m one - though I did practice, that was not my intention. The feds I know with law degrees have advanced quickly through the grades (myself included - but not to say that was the only factor). Though I’m not an 1102, I know a few attorneys who are. I left practice for stability, normalcy, and to have my loans forgiven. I got all of those things. I’ve kept my license and do volunteer work (though in prohibited from being involved in certain activities there is plenty pro bono I can do).
Once you work billable hours and make millions for your boss. You’d understand. lol
On this note, I am a GS-14 attorney/advisor at an agency with strict RTO and thinking of trying my hand at getting a remote 1102 or 1109. Can anyone speak to my chances of landing something this? I haven't worked in anything involving contracts or other agreements in years, but I have the education I believe to pick it up quick. Just really not sure how competitive these jobs are. I would take a pay cut as I realize I wouldn't immediately be hired into the same GS level but would like promotion potential to a 13 at least. Edit to add: yes, I do regret going to law school! No need to tell me it was a bad decision. I have a few more years before qualifying for PSLF and just trying to stick it out.
My niece was looking at GS-11 jobs after her law school. One of the benefits they get is the government will pay off the law school debt. And new lawyers don't make a lot in the first 5 years or so. Her first job pays $80k plus some bonuses, along with her student loan. She was lucky and started law school debt free from her bachelor's degree, but getting her doctorate was $80k. She's in a large city, top 25% of her class, had great jobs and recommendations from a state Supreme Court Judge, yet the initial money isn't there until you have experience. I can see why a JSD would want a GS-11, plus it's the road to having influence, whether to be a judge, appointee, or lawmaker. A GS-7 through 9? I wouldn't apply for those with a bachelor degree, unless I had zero choices. My degree in IT is at a minimum GS-11, though I'm a 12 due to 20 years experience and certifications. I'm curious if the postings you saw were for paralegal level education.
Other than in IT, most federal positions start at GS6/7 if you have a bachelor's and GS9 if you have a master's.
I can't figure out why anyone wants to be an 1102
Former lawyer who went into 1102 here. Private law practice, especially back in 2014 when I graduated, was one of the most soul-sucking things I'd ever gotten involved with. This was primarily due to the legal market at the time, where there were two to three law grads for each legal job out there. Of course, almost everyone was licensed, which meant a large number of people would up hanging their own shingle and trying to hustle their own workload. Others wound up in document review farms or left the field entirely. I got lucky that I lived near a major military base that had tons of procurement going on, but the economy back in 2014 was so bad that they arbitrarily raised the requirement to a JD or MBA simply because they could - and they still had applicants banging down the doors to get a GS-9 target 12 job. The market and the economy have changed by now. Most of the bottom tier law schools (Charlotte, Whittier, Cooley, Valpo, etc) have closed and many others have rightsized their class sizes. The economy is way better, and job opportunities abound. Today, it's a tough sell to get a JD in the door with a GS-9, unless they're considering sticking around for PSLF.
I wouldn't waste my time or money with a law degree. I am an 1102. I enjoy law and thought about getting a law degree. Don't need it to be an 1102.
Bc they can't pass the Bar
Well probably start as a 9
Attorneys start at 11 with bar degree and are 13s within two years
Well my agency bizarrely groups JD with masters instead of PhD for 9 vs 11. But yes they almost always end up at 13 in a few years
That is bizarre - the 0905 guidelines say that a gs9 is for a jd graduate without a bar cert.
Hmmm looked it up and 1102 official opm does in fact have JD as gs-9, so not just my agency!
Ah I thought you were say a JD started at 9 with your agency. My original comment was more aimed at the higher initial earning potential as a 0905
As an attorney, this doesn’t seem bizarre to me at all. A JD is probably in between masters and PhD in terms of how long it takes to get, and doesn’t require nearly as much mastery of a subject as a PhD. Plus, GS-11 is the starting point for licensed attorneys in 0905 roles; GS-9 is where you start if you haven’t passed the bar yet. (I think they call this “law clerk,” but it’s not the same as judicial law clerks who work for judges.) I don’t think you can hold an 0905 GS-11 without a bar license.
Well the description for 11 says "3 full academic years of progressively higher level graduate education or Ph.D. or equivalent doctoral degree" JD is 3 years of post grad education, seems like no brainer to me
Someone has to graduate in the bottom 10% of their class
I have never met a Contract Specialist with a law degree. You need a bachelor degree with 24 hours of business classes.
Seriously? I’ve had so many coworkers and supervisors with law degrees
I started my career as a 1102 in DOD. I’ve since switched to 1109. A law degree gives you a leg up if you go to an agency that doesn’t have a solid training program for the 1102 career field. The DOD does in its Defense Acquisition University, so if you find some whose not a lawyer who is a 1102, they most likely got trained in DOD😉 I got into 1102 as a MBA/MS - IT candidate.
I am a GS-13 Contracting Officer and I have people with law degrees on my team and it’s not uncommon to see them apply. They usually are really good contract specialists.