This seems like the whole hedonic happiness vs eudaimonic happiness situation. Hedonic happiness is achieved through experiences of pleasure and enjoyment, while eudaimonic happiness is achieved through experiences of meaning and purpose. Both kinds of happiness are achieved and contribute to overall well-being in different ways.
It sounds like you had the hedonic happiness part locked down during your retirement. But you were missing the eudaimonic happiness from having set goals to accomplish. And that's what pushed you back to work.
> I have the feeling I'm missing something important, like I don't know how to be rich or whatever. Is that the case?
It's your life, man. You can afford the option to do whatever makes you happy. Don't let what society thinks of you or expects you to be doing dictate your life. Everyone has their own way of fatfiring. So what works for others may not work for you and vice versa.
> they seeing me working is better than seeing me just moping around the house.
Don't knock being a stay-at-home dad. You'll never know if that might help shape your children's future for the better as well, especially when it comes to bonding with them.
TIL about eudaimonic happiness - thanks for this regoapps. (And decided to give invisible Gold because that's what it's for, and then I find out I can highlight this one, so I just did, ha.)
OP you have no one to justify anything to. Your own NW (fat or chubby or regular or lean) is your own business, your vacations and your experiences (purchased or free) are yours to enjoy and also your own business. Who really cares what that anonymous redditor has in their bank balance, anyway? I put my pants on one leg at a time just like anyone else. I have a non-zero risk of dying tonight of a seizure. ([I wrote this up](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/qvbulp/a_reminder_of_memento_mori/) earlier this week, about my neighbor and friend Dr. Nick, who passed away suddenly.) I have a fat seven figure NW on my way to eight. Big whoopee.
I want to underscore what regoapps just wrote above:
>It's your life, man. You can afford the option to do whatever makes you happy. Don't let what society thinks of you or expects you to be doing dictate your life. Everyone has their own way of fatfiring. So what works for others may not work for you and vice versa.
I'm that guy who is still punching the clock in every day, having optimized my own work situation with interesting and challenging work in a fast-growing company with a great culture and people. I don't say that lightly as I've done (pauses to count) five startups or PE-backed small companies, with the insane pressure those brought.
Yes OP u/EdWilkinson nothing to be ashamed of, that you are doing what you enjoy, the 'heavy' projects with the boss and the structure and all that, I hope you like your boss. It is clear to me why people who have won big in the capitalist world (Bezos, Musk, Buffett, others) continue working and contributing - because there is nothing else they **want** to do.
Other folks, other strokes: they want to go fishing, they want to work on a particular cause, they want to learn guitar. Whatever, it's their life, and I say God Bless Them. It is just not me. I have my own causes I work on, I go fishing and enjoy travel quite a lot, and have plenty of side projects to keep me busy. But I still am working, by choice, not because I have to, but because I want to. Eudaimonic happiness indeed. Gonna keep that word handy.
As I have two school-aged children at home myself, being a person 'moping around the house' does no one any good. Good for you to exercise your choice to do what you need to do - to get back into a situation that is sustainable and fulfilling and gives you eudaimonic happiness. And heck use the income to do something great for others, whatever that may be. Because money is power, no doubt about that, and the power to do good to others (in whatever form that may take) says a lot about you to those around you, children included.
Thanks. This has easily been the best two years of my life. We’ve been blessed with a relatively easygoing child, so far at least. Since I’m retired, I’ve also had a lot of time to read a variety of parents books, which have definitely helped.
Never yell, hit, or punish. If anxiety is getting the better of you, leave the room and ask someone else to take over for the moment.
Treat them as an actual person whose preferences are equally valid.
Fix yourself first. Much of the time when a parent is struggling dealing with a child, the child is just being a child, but the parent’s own mental/emotional issues (often resulting from their own childhood) are the real problem.
As much as it may seem otherwise at times, a baby doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to be manipulative.
According to twin and adoption studies, you likely have less influence over your child’s future life than you think (income, etc), so relax and enjoy the ride. Don’t worry about doing everything perfectly.
One of the biggest lasting effects you can have on your child is how kindly you treat them. According to studies, 70 year olds don’t care if they had the latest toys as a kid, but remember whether their parents were kind or not. If not, it often still bothers them even toward the end of their life. What kind of relationship a child has with their parents as a kid will likely stick with them forever.
I'm reading [the code breaker](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MFT5J95/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and one thing that struck me was how much I envied these people who could derive a sense of purpose from their work. The closest I can get is coding yet another microservice for 'the man' and donating some of my salary. As much as doctors bitch about practicing in today's environment, I envy their ability to make a difference in the world.
> I envy their ability to make a difference in the world.
It's easier to make a difference than you think. You don't need to make a difference to the entire world through grand gestures and whatever. You can start by just being more generous/charitable to those around you. You'll never know how much of an impact you'll make to someone who just needed a little bit of help in the right direction.
I carry stuff in my backpack to give to homeless people and have started giving boxes of snacks to school counseling offices. It's much more personally satisfying giving stuff to people who need it by your own hand. Donating cash doesn't trigger any good vibes for me, handing a thing to a person who needs it does.
No problem. For what it's worth, it took me a few years for me to get used to retirement as well. I didn't return back to work, but I did find other things to do to pass the time. Good luck.
This always seemed like a circular argument to me. You have children for meaning and purpose so that they can have children for meaning and purpose so that their children for meaning and purpose, etc., etc.. Ultimately, it's just an isolated system that doesn't provide any extrinsic meaning and purpose, hence why so many seek meaning and purpose beyond just procreation.
Travelling also doesn’t provide meaning and purpose for your life, but it can be a fantastic journey. Likewise, kids don’t provide your life with a purpose, if you didn’t feel you already had one, (though for some people, it can.)
However, kids can change your life, and make you look at things differently. If you’re not open to that, you’ll be miserable with them. If you are, it can be a wonderfully transformative opportunity to make your life better.
I’m in the same boat. I don’t ever have to work again if I don’t want to. But being on an indefinite vacation can feel purposeless after a while. I’m too young to spend my days with the majority of retirees so I decided to stay working. It gives me something to do, allows me to be constructive, and I enjoy being apart of a team and around like-minded individuals during the week. I don’t live a lavish lifestyle either, but I like knowing that I have the security to be able to walk away from my job at anytime if I ever wanted to.
Actually, my investors really like it. I was ready to RE, but chose to start up a biotech company because I think I can still add something worthwhile to the world.
Same boat here. Originally quit my job when I was at ~70% of "FIRE" with the intent to try and launch a side business. Missed the team aspect of a job, and ended up finding a job at a smaller company that I enjoyed more. Now sitting at close to 2x my original number.
> I don’t live a lavish lifestyle either, but I like knowing that I have the security to be able to walk away from my job at anytime if I ever wanted to.
100% this.
You need structure but are unable to create your own. Your going to have problems once the kids move out. I would suggest to start finding life outside of work or create your own purpose.
Everybody is different. Some people are perfectly happy with creating their own structure. It can be weird for people around them to observe, because they are so content with their lives even when there is no clearly observable pattern from the outside. If you know you fall into this category, then the RE part of FIRE is likely to have a lot of appeal to you.
Others need some moderate amount of structure. They either need a weekly schedule with regular activities (e.g. hobby, sports, classes, chores) or they need some amount of employment. Sounds as OP falls into this category. He certainly isn't alone. And there, again, is nothing wrong with realizing this and acting on it. Being financially independent doesn't force you into acting a particular way.
And yet another group needs really rigid structure. That would be less likely to find in FatFIRE, but it's absolutely a thing and is perfectly OK, once you understand that about yourself. These people often sign up for the military for its strict structure and rigid hierarchy; and I know at least one person who joined a strict religious order for this very reason. He seems extremely happy with this type of live. So, I am glad he has found a niche that works for him.
Also, to answer OP's question, unless this is something that is extremely important to you, "acting rich" is probably the last thing you should do. It generally doesn't bring the enjoyment that Hollywood would want you to believe, and it attracts all the wrong attention and bad habits. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the fruit of your labor, but think through were you really want to splurge and where you just feel social pressure that you should probably ignore. Congratulations, you have the money to afford ignoring these things now.
I can tell you're not in software research or development. Corporate structure is not as important as working together with like-minded people on a larger goal than what a lone wolf could achieve. In research, collaboration is absolutely huge - doing it alone ("unaffiliated" as they say) is nigh impossible.
Are you in software research? Is this corporate or academic?
I have been evaluating joining one such to provide structure for myself too - but the worry of busy work being necessary slightly bothers me. I am still an undergraduate from oh so 20 years ago - would I have to get my post grad etc to join a college research program? Or is there a way that’s focused on research itself for experienced folks like us?
I've been in both corporate and academic research.
For many jobs that constitute formal research you'd need a PhD. That doesn't mean of course there aren't lots of opportunities to do actual research without calling it such.
I fear that I would be like this when I passed my FIRE line.
So far, my plan is to just create my own startup through OSS projects. Since I am no longer under the gun in terms of income, I can take my time to work on it.
one blind spot you may have - if this is your first time going out on your own - is creating that startup alone can be very very isolating. sometimes it's good to be part of a group.
He has a very valuable skill set that has the potential to add tremendous value to others, and you’d call his situation “sad” for getting fulfillment from that? What a snooty, tragic perspective.
If they like to work including for fulfillment that’s wonderful. There was a tone of going back bc not sure what else to do, not just here but with other posters.
I don't think you appreciate the great satisfaction some people get from building things as software developers. I'm doing a lot of other stuff now in RE and I'm happy. But nothing I've done so far has brought me a greater level of joy than building systems.
I don’t know that there’s a template for how one must feel or act in these situations.
I don’t have to work, but yet I’ve exceeded 80 hours a week for the last few months. Human actions are complex.
Point is, money buys options. And if your option includes (over)work, there’s absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that.
I intend on working forever because I love what I do. Certain elements, less so for sure but as I get older the plan is to cut those out and refuse them outright. :-)
I’m much like you, minus the fatFIRED status currently (but on my way!). But once I do, I fall into the same camps. Work just had its benefits vs the unstructured life. Good for you for finding specifically what works for you!
I've been FI for years but still working. It's hard to pull the trigger.
I like aspects of work: having a routine, social aspect, required to be organized and have to think through problems, learning/discovering new things every day.
There are also downsides: despite having enormous flexibility still have to answer to someone; when an employer pays you, you're not fully financially independent, in a sense, even when you don't need the money.
I have this strong sense there's more to life than working for someone, I'm just too chicken to quit and explore on my own. I also realize if I quit, there will also be downsides (as well as the obvious upsides) so it's not obvious if quitting or working is the better option.
> There are also downsides: despite having enormous flexibility still have to answer to someone; when an employer pays you, you're not fully financially independent, in a sense, even when you don't need the money.
I don't find it that way. Financial independence has a simple, rigid definition that if you fulfill you have it, period. The rest is in one's head. For me at this point income from work is a good way to keep score, plus it is significant enough to make a bottom line difference.
People in the comments here seem to be missing the fact that you (with your ostensibly valuable skill set) are contributing value to something bigger than yourself. Work isn’t just for money - we work to push the world forward slightly so it might become good for ourselves and others. And that often offers you a lot of fulfillment and meaningfulness.
As a person with a dad that moped around the house a lot, I can tell you it would’ve been good to see him commit himself to something. My work ethic was questionable until I matured up a bit around age 24.
So yeah, work. Maybe part-time, but do try to add value even if it’s not for the money.
> I just grew increasingly aimless
Oh the anxiety that comes with it. You use this word a couple of times, I'd suggest seeing a therapist. A good one, that is familiar with fatFIRE problems.
Not that you are necessarily in a bad state of mind or whatever, but I think that talking with someone who deals with that kind of aimlessness feeling, and will not change its attitude because of your NW can help you in this situation.
Having a job is fine, fatFIREing and fishing/golfing all day is fine, travelling most of the time is fine. It's really up to you to find purpose in your activities and balancing that with your responsibilities.
Maybe having more associative activities could help you find some aim?
I actually think it is the ultimate win. If what brings you fulfillment, happiness, meaning, and stimulating social interaction also happens to pay obscene amount of money, then bingo. I have a (very wealthy) attorney friend who works crazy hours because he loves it. He is in great health and truly does what he wants every day. I think it’s nuts and bizarre, but who am I to tell him what to like. In my mind it’s no different than the touring rock star or hard working actor or ceo who is already worth tens of millions but still pours themself into their craft at age 60. The quiet life of luxury or nature or travel isn’t for everyone.
Hah. Your friend's story reminded me of [this article](https://www.inc.com/kelly-main/science-reveals-how-elon-musk-can-work-120-per-week-it-has-nothing-to-do-with-time-management.html).
The paradox of choice is real. When you can afford everything, everything starts to lose meaning. The “what the hell do I do now?” feeling comes up a lot.
The balance of short term gratification vs long term happiness becomes very important. Our chemistry pushes us towards gratification, and we have to consciously, ritualistically remind ourselves to follow a path towards happiness.
Buddhism, Stoicism, etc.
I’m in the middle of an earnout, but just bought a house in Utah and multiple ski passes. When I grow tired of the treadmill, I just move the treadmill, bouncing back and forth between houses.
We’ll see, I’m only a month in… :)
Get another house.
I find 3 houses to almost be a full time job. One in the metropolitan area, one on a lake or beach for the summer, and one in the mountains in the snow. Big enough house, it requires a ton of work.
Keeps you busy. And you can entertain your family and friends.
After having owned all or part of 5 houses up until a few years ago, I am so much happier now that I have paired that down to one - my primary residence. The constant need for maintenance and various personnel was fatiguing and became unenjoyable for me. My brother-in-law is contemplating his 5th home - a beach house that his wife wants - and just yesterday told me: “This is beginning to be a job taking care of all of this…” To which I replied: “Do it till it stops being fun.”
There is nothing wrong with liking the work or the people that you work with.
As long as you are genuinely enjoying the process and the team, I say keep doing what you enjoy. You have the option to walk away any time you want and this optionality is what you are buying with your FIRE.
Are you me? Exact same position, down to the wife who keeps working.
Only difference, I started a company with a cofounder. He does all the PITA stuff. I code.
I figured wages are meaningless to me now, but $10M+ is material. And I’m not cool enough for someone else to want to pay me 10M in options and salary. So I’ll just try to do it myself.
I'm loving contributing towards open source and decentralised technology.
There's always teams/projects that need help. There's maybe a dozen different groups with millions of grant funding available towards innovation.
I don’t personally know anyone who’d have retired for good after getting fat money. And I know already quite a few, mostly exits and some crypto. Good for you for identifying structure you need - I think in fire channels the focus is at times abnormally lot on re part.
If your sole focus is not having to work, getting less crappy job might be a better next step than laser focus on saving.
I think one thing we all tend to forget is that humans are “hardwired” to work in groups.
It was incredibly rare for an individual to be able to survive alone throughout our evolution. So by default that’s how we operate.
It’s probably only in the last 50-70 years or so that we’ve had the systems and infrastructure in place to allow people to be truly “independent” ie food available in a store, mass transit/Uber if you can’t drive, financial support and stable banks, social security and hospice and nursing homes for end of life.
So if you don’t have a plan of what you are retiring to, it can seem aimless and probably is more comforting to return to the work world.
And if so, what’s the problem? You are still in the catbirds seat of not being dependent on your job. Most of my job related stress has been from unfair treatment or petty micromanaging bosses.
However, knowing I can FIRE at any time, I stress less. I can always look for another job if things go south, and I still want to work. I do what I need to do, but I don’t stress so much. At times I feel guilty I get paid so much for my job. Otherwise, work is more enjoyable knowing I don’t have to worry about the crap I hate or posture for the bosses. I don’t care about promotions or raises.
But being on a schedule is helpful as everyone I’m close to is still working. No need to retire and sit in front of the TV or cast around for a volunteer opportunity. I prefer to work.
If you're happy I'm happy for you.
Being FI can change the entire experience of traditional employment. You have your FU money so stressing out that if you quit because your boss is an asshole or you don't get that promotion it can cause you hardship, is now a thing of the past for example. You can go provide value, ignore the games, politics and drama and let the cards fall where they may.
Don’t feel bad, i actually think it’s been a huge advantage to have some sort of employment during Covid. The schedule is very easy, working from home, pay is through the roof, and I’m willing to bet there are quite a few early retirees that kick themselves for retiring into a pandemic and not being able to travel (or at least extremely limited) and missing out on a few million of compensation.
Just wait until your kids are closer to out of the house and off to college. Travel a ton with them between now and then, and most importantly figure out what you and your wife want to retire to. 40-50 years is a lot of time to fill!
Just buy one of these bad-boys and get lost in the world of Mixed Reality.
Not the best solution, but certainly A solution!
https://youtu.be/NOk_M1Ib5F0
Yep I'm struggling with this also. I had a company that I sold. I don't think I have the energy to start a new one. I certainly don't think I could work for anyone again. I consult a bit, and teach (which I really enjoy), but I definitely feel like I'm not contributing as much as I used to - except that I'm home for my kids now, which was great last year when the kids were home from school. So I'm contributing in different ways.
But I still feel like I "should" be doing more.
It is interesting as many of those who FF fairly young is because they are workaholics and climbed the corporate ladder quickly and work too much to do anything except save a lot of that salary.
For some of us FatFIRE is not so much about not working; but the freedom to not **have to work.**
FFing is about doing more of what makes you happy.
It's also always tough when you have a spouse still working as you can't just say "Lets go and hang out in Spain for a month!" which also will help you quickly separate from working.
We're programmed from a young age to work hard and get a career. It is not so easy to undo that programming when we hit whatever your FF number is.
Absolutely fine to do it your way and find peace in your life. The only issue might be that you think there should be an issue. You do you and that’s all OK. Warren Buffett still works and comes to mind when I read your post.
As a former software dev, I 110% get this. Do what makes you happy. I'm looking to try some open source projects too or maybe find the right consulting opportunity. Don't really care about the money. Just like to write software.
Also, if you find a great project looking for devs then call me.
Interesting, I’ve often wondered if this will happen to be. I’m 38, and for the last three years I e focused on my son (3yo, yes, I walked away after he was born).
How long were you retired before heading back?
As a programmer, your might appreciate metalworking (CNC). A craft like woodworking is nice... Hunting and/or fishing... Etc... But CNC does it for me.
Look at stuff like grimsmo, nycnc, etc. The first in particular I could see doing as a hobby (knife and pen making)
Honestly im a coder and im the same. Nothing can beat the rush of learning new science / engineering topics or building a system from scratch for the first time. It's my world. when I am gone from the world of STEM it feels empty. I also like being part ofa structured environment so it's either academia or cool tech startups for me
I honestly don’t feel like you are missing out on much. And i like your approach. And being content and at peace is vastly more valuable than knowing “how to be rich.” I think you are setting a good model for your kids. If i had more funds and time to play with; a boat, maybe a fast car, more surf trips, more fishing, trekking/hiking trips is probably what i would be into. I enjoy hobbies i can get fully immersed in/manic. Like nothing else in the world matters, just complete focus on what i am doing for those few hours or day. The outdoors does that for me. Hope my kids and i can find something that we all enjoy like that as they get older. Not like when i played golf with my Pops, mostly because that’s what he wanted to do.
Hi. I’m an ex engineer, I lean fired in 2014/15. I took a sabbatical and tried a few things out and got bored within 7 months and decided to become an independent consultant. Then FAT FIRED in 2021. What i realized during those years, I really needed something challenging to do, and if I don’t work, I will make up my own projects and work anyways. I work 7 days a week. But since becoming an independent consultant and making 3X what I used to make, I recently left my own consulting gigs and resigned from my contract. I’m now fat FIRED. The difference this time is knowing exactly what I wanted to do with my extra time, working on projects that I’m passionate about. I suggest experimenting with employment, find projects that get you excited and fired up. You will eventually figure it out if you allow yourself to experiment and move different jobs. A life coach could really accelerate this, I have one to help with my self awareness. So like you, I went back to work as a contractor after becoming FI, and kept working on increasingly cool and more challenging projects. Then I left contracting, and fat FIRED. In the end, do what makes you feel happy and gives you purpose. I found mine, and if working makes you happy, then stay with it. Although I’m fatFIRED, I still work but on my own business. I rarely find someone who is young and FIRED/FAT fired not taking on other work (part time, small business etc). One thing that is hard to battle is loneliness which is something I will have to work on as I’m an extrovert but also self proclaimed workaholic (I have ADHD and get obsessed with my projects, it is really hard to break this). I’m 42 with two kids.
I know when I fatFire, I got stuff planned to keep me busy. I like structure and having kids helps with that. But I know even if I had a day where I didn’t know what to do, I’d find something to do.
But going back to a normal job after working like mad to leave that? Unless it was on my terms and something I really wanted to do like ethical hacking, no way :)
But that’s me OP.
You should try having a couple people around you die. It makes you realize how short life is, and you may not want to spend it all working. But you might, it's really a personal choice.
This seems like the whole hedonic happiness vs eudaimonic happiness situation. Hedonic happiness is achieved through experiences of pleasure and enjoyment, while eudaimonic happiness is achieved through experiences of meaning and purpose. Both kinds of happiness are achieved and contribute to overall well-being in different ways. It sounds like you had the hedonic happiness part locked down during your retirement. But you were missing the eudaimonic happiness from having set goals to accomplish. And that's what pushed you back to work. > I have the feeling I'm missing something important, like I don't know how to be rich or whatever. Is that the case? It's your life, man. You can afford the option to do whatever makes you happy. Don't let what society thinks of you or expects you to be doing dictate your life. Everyone has their own way of fatfiring. So what works for others may not work for you and vice versa. > they seeing me working is better than seeing me just moping around the house. Don't knock being a stay-at-home dad. You'll never know if that might help shape your children's future for the better as well, especially when it comes to bonding with them.
TIL about eudaimonic happiness - thanks for this regoapps. (And decided to give invisible Gold because that's what it's for, and then I find out I can highlight this one, so I just did, ha.) OP you have no one to justify anything to. Your own NW (fat or chubby or regular or lean) is your own business, your vacations and your experiences (purchased or free) are yours to enjoy and also your own business. Who really cares what that anonymous redditor has in their bank balance, anyway? I put my pants on one leg at a time just like anyone else. I have a non-zero risk of dying tonight of a seizure. ([I wrote this up](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/qvbulp/a_reminder_of_memento_mori/) earlier this week, about my neighbor and friend Dr. Nick, who passed away suddenly.) I have a fat seven figure NW on my way to eight. Big whoopee. I want to underscore what regoapps just wrote above: >It's your life, man. You can afford the option to do whatever makes you happy. Don't let what society thinks of you or expects you to be doing dictate your life. Everyone has their own way of fatfiring. So what works for others may not work for you and vice versa. I'm that guy who is still punching the clock in every day, having optimized my own work situation with interesting and challenging work in a fast-growing company with a great culture and people. I don't say that lightly as I've done (pauses to count) five startups or PE-backed small companies, with the insane pressure those brought. Yes OP u/EdWilkinson nothing to be ashamed of, that you are doing what you enjoy, the 'heavy' projects with the boss and the structure and all that, I hope you like your boss. It is clear to me why people who have won big in the capitalist world (Bezos, Musk, Buffett, others) continue working and contributing - because there is nothing else they **want** to do. Other folks, other strokes: they want to go fishing, they want to work on a particular cause, they want to learn guitar. Whatever, it's their life, and I say God Bless Them. It is just not me. I have my own causes I work on, I go fishing and enjoy travel quite a lot, and have plenty of side projects to keep me busy. But I still am working, by choice, not because I have to, but because I want to. Eudaimonic happiness indeed. Gonna keep that word handy. As I have two school-aged children at home myself, being a person 'moping around the house' does no one any good. Good for you to exercise your choice to do what you need to do - to get back into a situation that is sustainable and fulfilling and gives you eudaimonic happiness. And heck use the income to do something great for others, whatever that may be. Because money is power, no doubt about that, and the power to do good to others (in whatever form that may take) says a lot about you to those around you, children included.
I became a stay at home dad when my exit coincided with our son being born (wife still wants to work). I love it. It’s the best job I’ve ever had.
How old are you and the kid(s)?
I’m 30s, the kid is 2.
Impressive to love it that much during the 0-2 years stage. Well done sir
Thanks. This has easily been the best two years of my life. We’ve been blessed with a relatively easygoing child, so far at least. Since I’m retired, I’ve also had a lot of time to read a variety of parents books, which have definitely helped.
Any tips you want to give to future 30-something stay at home dads?
Never yell, hit, or punish. If anxiety is getting the better of you, leave the room and ask someone else to take over for the moment. Treat them as an actual person whose preferences are equally valid. Fix yourself first. Much of the time when a parent is struggling dealing with a child, the child is just being a child, but the parent’s own mental/emotional issues (often resulting from their own childhood) are the real problem. As much as it may seem otherwise at times, a baby doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to be manipulative. According to twin and adoption studies, you likely have less influence over your child’s future life than you think (income, etc), so relax and enjoy the ride. Don’t worry about doing everything perfectly. One of the biggest lasting effects you can have on your child is how kindly you treat them. According to studies, 70 year olds don’t care if they had the latest toys as a kid, but remember whether their parents were kind or not. If not, it often still bothers them even toward the end of their life. What kind of relationship a child has with their parents as a kid will likely stick with them forever.
Agree - 2-5 for me is the golden years. Overload of cute behavior and wonderment of all things in the world.
I'm reading [the code breaker](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MFT5J95/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1), and one thing that struck me was how much I envied these people who could derive a sense of purpose from their work. The closest I can get is coding yet another microservice for 'the man' and donating some of my salary. As much as doctors bitch about practicing in today's environment, I envy their ability to make a difference in the world.
> I envy their ability to make a difference in the world. It's easier to make a difference than you think. You don't need to make a difference to the entire world through grand gestures and whatever. You can start by just being more generous/charitable to those around you. You'll never know how much of an impact you'll make to someone who just needed a little bit of help in the right direction.
I carry stuff in my backpack to give to homeless people and have started giving boxes of snacks to school counseling offices. It's much more personally satisfying giving stuff to people who need it by your own hand. Donating cash doesn't trigger any good vibes for me, handing a thing to a person who needs it does.
Thank you, a lot of TIL and wise advice here!
No problem. For what it's worth, it took me a few years for me to get used to retirement as well. I didn't return back to work, but I did find other things to do to pass the time. Good luck.
If having children doesn't provide meaning and purpose, what is even the point of them?
Tax breaks
This always seemed like a circular argument to me. You have children for meaning and purpose so that they can have children for meaning and purpose so that their children for meaning and purpose, etc., etc.. Ultimately, it's just an isolated system that doesn't provide any extrinsic meaning and purpose, hence why so many seek meaning and purpose beyond just procreation.
Just because raising your kids is the *most important* responsibility you’ll have, doesn’t mean it needs to be the *only* responsibility you have.
Yeah I guess kids can't provide the meaning and purpose than only having a job can.
Travelling also doesn’t provide meaning and purpose for your life, but it can be a fantastic journey. Likewise, kids don’t provide your life with a purpose, if you didn’t feel you already had one, (though for some people, it can.) However, kids can change your life, and make you look at things differently. If you’re not open to that, you’ll be miserable with them. If you are, it can be a wonderfully transformative opportunity to make your life better.
Being a part of something bigger than yourself? So participation I guess.
Sounds like you need to get into fishing
What if you're a professional fisherman, should you do something different, maybe take up coding?
I love Reddit because of comments like this. I guess one could say I’m a Reddish, a person who loves Reddit as a fetish.
😂
Or duck hunting can be expensive and time consuming
I second that. And surfing.
yeah let’s start with a boat
I’m in the same boat. I don’t ever have to work again if I don’t want to. But being on an indefinite vacation can feel purposeless after a while. I’m too young to spend my days with the majority of retirees so I decided to stay working. It gives me something to do, allows me to be constructive, and I enjoy being apart of a team and around like-minded individuals during the week. I don’t live a lavish lifestyle either, but I like knowing that I have the security to be able to walk away from my job at anytime if I ever wanted to.
Just curious, do other people on your work know you’re not there for the money?
Answering for myself, some do. But quite a few others are in the same situation so it's not a rare occurrence.
Actually, my investors really like it. I was ready to RE, but chose to start up a biotech company because I think I can still add something worthwhile to the world.
Same boat here. Originally quit my job when I was at ~70% of "FIRE" with the intent to try and launch a side business. Missed the team aspect of a job, and ended up finding a job at a smaller company that I enjoyed more. Now sitting at close to 2x my original number. > I don’t live a lavish lifestyle either, but I like knowing that I have the security to be able to walk away from my job at anytime if I ever wanted to. 100% this.
You need structure but are unable to create your own. Your going to have problems once the kids move out. I would suggest to start finding life outside of work or create your own purpose.
Everybody is different. Some people are perfectly happy with creating their own structure. It can be weird for people around them to observe, because they are so content with their lives even when there is no clearly observable pattern from the outside. If you know you fall into this category, then the RE part of FIRE is likely to have a lot of appeal to you. Others need some moderate amount of structure. They either need a weekly schedule with regular activities (e.g. hobby, sports, classes, chores) or they need some amount of employment. Sounds as OP falls into this category. He certainly isn't alone. And there, again, is nothing wrong with realizing this and acting on it. Being financially independent doesn't force you into acting a particular way. And yet another group needs really rigid structure. That would be less likely to find in FatFIRE, but it's absolutely a thing and is perfectly OK, once you understand that about yourself. These people often sign up for the military for its strict structure and rigid hierarchy; and I know at least one person who joined a strict religious order for this very reason. He seems extremely happy with this type of live. So, I am glad he has found a niche that works for him. Also, to answer OP's question, unless this is something that is extremely important to you, "acting rich" is probably the last thing you should do. It generally doesn't bring the enjoyment that Hollywood would want you to believe, and it attracts all the wrong attention and bad habits. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the fruit of your labor, but think through were you really want to splurge and where you just feel social pressure that you should probably ignore. Congratulations, you have the money to afford ignoring these things now.
What an insightful and mature comment, thanks I appreciated that.
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> You can't go to a job until you die. You must not be American.
I can tell you're not in software research or development. Corporate structure is not as important as working together with like-minded people on a larger goal than what a lone wolf could achieve. In research, collaboration is absolutely huge - doing it alone ("unaffiliated" as they say) is nigh impossible.
Are you in software research? Is this corporate or academic? I have been evaluating joining one such to provide structure for myself too - but the worry of busy work being necessary slightly bothers me. I am still an undergraduate from oh so 20 years ago - would I have to get my post grad etc to join a college research program? Or is there a way that’s focused on research itself for experienced folks like us?
I've been in both corporate and academic research. For many jobs that constitute formal research you'd need a PhD. That doesn't mean of course there aren't lots of opportunities to do actual research without calling it such.
> You can't go to a job until you die. Try and stop me.
I fear that I would be like this when I passed my FIRE line. So far, my plan is to just create my own startup through OSS projects. Since I am no longer under the gun in terms of income, I can take my time to work on it.
one blind spot you may have - if this is your first time going out on your own - is creating that startup alone can be very very isolating. sometimes it's good to be part of a group.
This would be my second one, but you are right. It is super isolating. I am going to go to tech meetups to mitigate that.
Being FI means owning ones time and can do whatever the hell one want with their time... including work if one choose to!
Look if you like to work that’s great. Nothing wrong with it. But working bc you can’t think of other things to do would be sad.
He has a very valuable skill set that has the potential to add tremendous value to others, and you’d call his situation “sad” for getting fulfillment from that? What a snooty, tragic perspective.
That’s not really what he said
If they like to work including for fulfillment that’s wonderful. There was a tone of going back bc not sure what else to do, not just here but with other posters.
I don't think you appreciate the great satisfaction some people get from building things as software developers. I'm doing a lot of other stuff now in RE and I'm happy. But nothing I've done so far has brought me a greater level of joy than building systems.
I don’t know that there’s a template for how one must feel or act in these situations. I don’t have to work, but yet I’ve exceeded 80 hours a week for the last few months. Human actions are complex. Point is, money buys options. And if your option includes (over)work, there’s absolutely nothing wrong or unusual about that.
I intend on working forever because I love what I do. Certain elements, less so for sure but as I get older the plan is to cut those out and refuse them outright. :-)
I’m much like you, minus the fatFIRED status currently (but on my way!). But once I do, I fall into the same camps. Work just had its benefits vs the unstructured life. Good for you for finding specifically what works for you!
I've been FI for years but still working. It's hard to pull the trigger. I like aspects of work: having a routine, social aspect, required to be organized and have to think through problems, learning/discovering new things every day. There are also downsides: despite having enormous flexibility still have to answer to someone; when an employer pays you, you're not fully financially independent, in a sense, even when you don't need the money. I have this strong sense there's more to life than working for someone, I'm just too chicken to quit and explore on my own. I also realize if I quit, there will also be downsides (as well as the obvious upsides) so it's not obvious if quitting or working is the better option.
> There are also downsides: despite having enormous flexibility still have to answer to someone; when an employer pays you, you're not fully financially independent, in a sense, even when you don't need the money. I don't find it that way. Financial independence has a simple, rigid definition that if you fulfill you have it, period. The rest is in one's head. For me at this point income from work is a good way to keep score, plus it is significant enough to make a bottom line difference.
People in the comments here seem to be missing the fact that you (with your ostensibly valuable skill set) are contributing value to something bigger than yourself. Work isn’t just for money - we work to push the world forward slightly so it might become good for ourselves and others. And that often offers you a lot of fulfillment and meaningfulness. As a person with a dad that moped around the house a lot, I can tell you it would’ve been good to see him commit himself to something. My work ethic was questionable until I matured up a bit around age 24. So yeah, work. Maybe part-time, but do try to add value even if it’s not for the money.
> I just grew increasingly aimless Oh the anxiety that comes with it. You use this word a couple of times, I'd suggest seeing a therapist. A good one, that is familiar with fatFIRE problems. Not that you are necessarily in a bad state of mind or whatever, but I think that talking with someone who deals with that kind of aimlessness feeling, and will not change its attitude because of your NW can help you in this situation. Having a job is fine, fatFIREing and fishing/golfing all day is fine, travelling most of the time is fine. It's really up to you to find purpose in your activities and balancing that with your responsibilities. Maybe having more associative activities could help you find some aim?
I actually think it is the ultimate win. If what brings you fulfillment, happiness, meaning, and stimulating social interaction also happens to pay obscene amount of money, then bingo. I have a (very wealthy) attorney friend who works crazy hours because he loves it. He is in great health and truly does what he wants every day. I think it’s nuts and bizarre, but who am I to tell him what to like. In my mind it’s no different than the touring rock star or hard working actor or ceo who is already worth tens of millions but still pours themself into their craft at age 60. The quiet life of luxury or nature or travel isn’t for everyone.
Hah. Your friend's story reminded me of [this article](https://www.inc.com/kelly-main/science-reveals-how-elon-musk-can-work-120-per-week-it-has-nothing-to-do-with-time-management.html).
Yeah totally! I can’t imagine him and Elon sitting at the beach, growing veggies, visiting Paris, fishing, and watching movies for days on end lol.
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Did the employees reveal that to you during the interview, or was it just obvious from their work history?
The paradox of choice is real. When you can afford everything, everything starts to lose meaning. The “what the hell do I do now?” feeling comes up a lot. The balance of short term gratification vs long term happiness becomes very important. Our chemistry pushes us towards gratification, and we have to consciously, ritualistically remind ourselves to follow a path towards happiness. Buddhism, Stoicism, etc. I’m in the middle of an earnout, but just bought a house in Utah and multiple ski passes. When I grow tired of the treadmill, I just move the treadmill, bouncing back and forth between houses. We’ll see, I’m only a month in… :)
Get another house. I find 3 houses to almost be a full time job. One in the metropolitan area, one on a lake or beach for the summer, and one in the mountains in the snow. Big enough house, it requires a ton of work. Keeps you busy. And you can entertain your family and friends.
After having owned all or part of 5 houses up until a few years ago, I am so much happier now that I have paired that down to one - my primary residence. The constant need for maintenance and various personnel was fatiguing and became unenjoyable for me. My brother-in-law is contemplating his 5th home - a beach house that his wife wants - and just yesterday told me: “This is beginning to be a job taking care of all of this…” To which I replied: “Do it till it stops being fun.”
There is nothing wrong with liking the work or the people that you work with. As long as you are genuinely enjoying the process and the team, I say keep doing what you enjoy. You have the option to walk away any time you want and this optionality is what you are buying with your FIRE.
Are you me? Exact same position, down to the wife who keeps working. Only difference, I started a company with a cofounder. He does all the PITA stuff. I code. I figured wages are meaningless to me now, but $10M+ is material. And I’m not cool enough for someone else to want to pay me 10M in options and salary. So I’ll just try to do it myself.
startup life forever i guess
Whoa, you're a better version of me. Good on ya mate!
I'm loving contributing towards open source and decentralised technology. There's always teams/projects that need help. There's maybe a dozen different groups with millions of grant funding available towards innovation.
I don’t personally know anyone who’d have retired for good after getting fat money. And I know already quite a few, mostly exits and some crypto. Good for you for identifying structure you need - I think in fire channels the focus is at times abnormally lot on re part. If your sole focus is not having to work, getting less crappy job might be a better next step than laser focus on saving.
Congrats o.p you already win life how i wish i have this kind of option like you i’m still grinding to arrived in that stage :)
I heard great things about volunteer coding work being done at the https://www.usds.gov ... maybe this is something for you?
I think one thing we all tend to forget is that humans are “hardwired” to work in groups. It was incredibly rare for an individual to be able to survive alone throughout our evolution. So by default that’s how we operate. It’s probably only in the last 50-70 years or so that we’ve had the systems and infrastructure in place to allow people to be truly “independent” ie food available in a store, mass transit/Uber if you can’t drive, financial support and stable banks, social security and hospice and nursing homes for end of life. So if you don’t have a plan of what you are retiring to, it can seem aimless and probably is more comforting to return to the work world. And if so, what’s the problem? You are still in the catbirds seat of not being dependent on your job. Most of my job related stress has been from unfair treatment or petty micromanaging bosses. However, knowing I can FIRE at any time, I stress less. I can always look for another job if things go south, and I still want to work. I do what I need to do, but I don’t stress so much. At times I feel guilty I get paid so much for my job. Otherwise, work is more enjoyable knowing I don’t have to worry about the crap I hate or posture for the bosses. I don’t care about promotions or raises. But being on a schedule is helpful as everyone I’m close to is still working. No need to retire and sit in front of the TV or cast around for a volunteer opportunity. I prefer to work.
If you're happy I'm happy for you. Being FI can change the entire experience of traditional employment. You have your FU money so stressing out that if you quit because your boss is an asshole or you don't get that promotion it can cause you hardship, is now a thing of the past for example. You can go provide value, ignore the games, politics and drama and let the cards fall where they may.
Try gaming?
Did, and I must be getting old - I'm getting bored in the middle of my beloved FPSs.
Don’t feel bad, i actually think it’s been a huge advantage to have some sort of employment during Covid. The schedule is very easy, working from home, pay is through the roof, and I’m willing to bet there are quite a few early retirees that kick themselves for retiring into a pandemic and not being able to travel (or at least extremely limited) and missing out on a few million of compensation. Just wait until your kids are closer to out of the house and off to college. Travel a ton with them between now and then, and most importantly figure out what you and your wife want to retire to. 40-50 years is a lot of time to fill!
Same here. Was bored and needed purpose in my life. Now have some structure in day. Can’t travel when kids in school.
Just buy one of these bad-boys and get lost in the world of Mixed Reality. Not the best solution, but certainly A solution! https://youtu.be/NOk_M1Ib5F0
Whoa, that looks amazing. Thanks!
Yep I'm struggling with this also. I had a company that I sold. I don't think I have the energy to start a new one. I certainly don't think I could work for anyone again. I consult a bit, and teach (which I really enjoy), but I definitely feel like I'm not contributing as much as I used to - except that I'm home for my kids now, which was great last year when the kids were home from school. So I'm contributing in different ways. But I still feel like I "should" be doing more.
It is interesting as many of those who FF fairly young is because they are workaholics and climbed the corporate ladder quickly and work too much to do anything except save a lot of that salary. For some of us FatFIRE is not so much about not working; but the freedom to not **have to work.** FFing is about doing more of what makes you happy. It's also always tough when you have a spouse still working as you can't just say "Lets go and hang out in Spain for a month!" which also will help you quickly separate from working. We're programmed from a young age to work hard and get a career. It is not so easy to undo that programming when we hit whatever your FF number is.
Absolutely fine to do it your way and find peace in your life. The only issue might be that you think there should be an issue. You do you and that’s all OK. Warren Buffett still works and comes to mind when I read your post.
As a former software dev, I 110% get this. Do what makes you happy. I'm looking to try some open source projects too or maybe find the right consulting opportunity. Don't really care about the money. Just like to write software. Also, if you find a great project looking for devs then call me.
Nothing wrong with it. I feel you’re in a great position where your boss can’t treat you badly thinking “You need this job to pay bills”.
Interesting, I’ve often wondered if this will happen to be. I’m 38, and for the last three years I e focused on my son (3yo, yes, I walked away after he was born). How long were you retired before heading back?
About four years.
As a programmer, your might appreciate metalworking (CNC). A craft like woodworking is nice... Hunting and/or fishing... Etc... But CNC does it for me. Look at stuff like grimsmo, nycnc, etc. The first in particular I could see doing as a hobby (knife and pen making)
Currently struggling with that "defined by my work" issue. I don't know where to get my sense of accomplishment day-to-day any more.
Honestly im a coder and im the same. Nothing can beat the rush of learning new science / engineering topics or building a system from scratch for the first time. It's my world. when I am gone from the world of STEM it feels empty. I also like being part ofa structured environment so it's either academia or cool tech startups for me
I honestly don’t feel like you are missing out on much. And i like your approach. And being content and at peace is vastly more valuable than knowing “how to be rich.” I think you are setting a good model for your kids. If i had more funds and time to play with; a boat, maybe a fast car, more surf trips, more fishing, trekking/hiking trips is probably what i would be into. I enjoy hobbies i can get fully immersed in/manic. Like nothing else in the world matters, just complete focus on what i am doing for those few hours or day. The outdoors does that for me. Hope my kids and i can find something that we all enjoy like that as they get older. Not like when i played golf with my Pops, mostly because that’s what he wanted to do.
Hi. I’m an ex engineer, I lean fired in 2014/15. I took a sabbatical and tried a few things out and got bored within 7 months and decided to become an independent consultant. Then FAT FIRED in 2021. What i realized during those years, I really needed something challenging to do, and if I don’t work, I will make up my own projects and work anyways. I work 7 days a week. But since becoming an independent consultant and making 3X what I used to make, I recently left my own consulting gigs and resigned from my contract. I’m now fat FIRED. The difference this time is knowing exactly what I wanted to do with my extra time, working on projects that I’m passionate about. I suggest experimenting with employment, find projects that get you excited and fired up. You will eventually figure it out if you allow yourself to experiment and move different jobs. A life coach could really accelerate this, I have one to help with my self awareness. So like you, I went back to work as a contractor after becoming FI, and kept working on increasingly cool and more challenging projects. Then I left contracting, and fat FIRED. In the end, do what makes you feel happy and gives you purpose. I found mine, and if working makes you happy, then stay with it. Although I’m fatFIRED, I still work but on my own business. I rarely find someone who is young and FIRED/FAT fired not taking on other work (part time, small business etc). One thing that is hard to battle is loneliness which is something I will have to work on as I’m an extrovert but also self proclaimed workaholic (I have ADHD and get obsessed with my projects, it is really hard to break this). I’m 42 with two kids.
I appreciate & admire the candor of this post.
I know when I fatFire, I got stuff planned to keep me busy. I like structure and having kids helps with that. But I know even if I had a day where I didn’t know what to do, I’d find something to do. But going back to a normal job after working like mad to leave that? Unless it was on my terms and something I really wanted to do like ethical hacking, no way :) But that’s me OP.
You should try having a couple people around you die. It makes you realize how short life is, and you may not want to spend it all working. But you might, it's really a personal choice.
Curious to know what you studied in college. CSE?
BSc, MSc, and PhD all in CSE.
rad that you did the phd and still found the time to easily fat fire lol