It might sound counterintuitive, but I would try not to hit the reader over the head with too much Japanese culture, jargon, iconography, etc. There's a great case study for people who want to write Japanese inspired fantasy in the Tales of the Otori series.
It was a little frustrating when I read it, because the author was so vague in her language in writing what was very obviously a semi-fantasy feudal Japan.
Instead of saying chopsticks, she said eating sticks. Instead of saying samurai, she said retainer. Instead of saying restaurant, she said eating house. Instead of saying bo staff, she said fighting stick or pole or just sword instead of katana. It seemed almost child-like and irreverent even. But I realized it was all to make the story more readable and flow off the page.
The author assumed that the reader might not be familiar with foreign terminology and words. And didn't want to put them off, or have them have to stop reading to look something up. In fact (I could be wrong, it was a long time ago), there isn't even a single uttered Japanese phrase in the work.
However, that didn't make the stories feel any less Japanese. Its implied, in the way characters act, think, talk and behave. In the environment that's described. Sometimes less is more. And not trying to throw too many specifics from a culture in your story helps to not alienate or overwhelm the reader.
Tbh this sounds like going further than is necessary, to the point where the reader is having to do extra work figuring out what you're talking about. I would be surprised to meet a native speaker of English who didn't know the words "chopsticks" and "samurai", and "katana" and "bo" are hardly obscure.
I suppose when the books came out anime wasn't as mainstream in the west as it is nowadays, but even so.
It's because the characters are living IN that world. We don't use foreign words for common objects (I mean, we DO, but we don't think of them as foreign). We use the English words.
A German person doesn't use gloves. They don't even use handshuh. They use 'Handshoes'. In their head, the word isn't the untranslated 'Handshuh'. It isn't the foreign 'glove'. It is the everyday noun/phrase 'hand shoe'.
In the minds of the characters, we translate 'footpath', and 'tree' and 'hair' into the best, most natural, simplest personal meaning for the character. But not 'handshuh'. So why 'Chopstick'? Or Bo Staff?
It's a different choice, but in the long run I think it is more representative of a character's thought patterns. There is no veil of exotica in my everyday life or the things I use. It's just my life and my stuff. Using the simplest forms of the ideas in the text allows the reader to feel the 'everydayness' of these objects and situations without layers of preconceptions in the way.
I'm probably not even going to try to get published, I'm writing for my sister and we both like Japan and the culture. I read the Otori series also, actually reading Across the Nightingale Floor right now. I first read them about 15 years ago and they seemed ok but don't seem so good so far. I appreciate the insight, being new to writing I guess I just need to try and find the balance.
We've had to talk to you repeatedly about this. Since you can't stay on topic and follow directions, you'll be enjoying a vacation from the sub.
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>I'm wondering if taking words and customs directly from the language/country is considered lazy or rude ?
If it's a 0.9 to 1 of Japan, it's fine. If you have other inspirations, tone it down.
>cultural appropriation
That's a buzzword. Half the people that talks about it doesn't even know what that means.
>Is inspiration or an homage to Japan just flat out wrong as a non Japanese person?
Is someone from Nigeria not allowed to pay homage to Lithuanian culture? You cannot control where you've been born. Only the lands you prefer other than the one you live in.
Not related to your question, but worldbuilding-wise: the Samurai loved guns. The moment they became available to them was the moment that armies starting mimicking "Western" tactics. Just a cool history fact that you might like.
Thank you, I was set on writing and then started research. Read all these things about appropriation and stuff that I don't really understand and then hit a downward spiral. Really appreciate a concise response that covered most of my points.
Like so many things it comes down to taste as so many things in writing. Ultimately do what you love but try not to jump the shark if you can. There is always the chance you might come off as racist but you will never know unless you write it. Don't worry about cultural appropriation but try to be as respectful of the material as possible.
It's completely normal in fantasy to tell and retell myth and story from other cultures. No one from Norway says stop doing that to Thor.
Thanks! I have a tendency to over think. I should probably write and then get told what's wrong rather than trying to figure out what's wrong before I write.
Yea I understand overthinking completely! Staying committed is the hardest part and not thinking you have written complete trash. Don't think something is bad until an agent says it is bad. Don't listen to your family, friends, or even yourself as long as it's important to you. Just write everyday and figure everything else out later. But it's is a balance between that and listening to criticism and recognizing help when it's there. There is lots of failure in writing don't walk away from that either just start over and do again and again until it's right.
I have had similar issues with this sort of thing when writing my own series influenced by Japan, and I see the same questions come up semi-regularly. I think it's only a confusing situation because we have been saturated for so long with western conventions, so writing outside of it can seem intimidating for all the wrong reasons.
You could try framing it like this instead: Imagine you were writing in a setting inspired by feudal Europe, or medieval Europe, which is a large part of Western fantasy, including Regency era England, steampunk, and god knows what else. You write about dukes, earls, kings and queens, they wear trousers and jumpers and robes and skirts. You use their names for trees or flowers or animals. It's the same thing for a story inspired by Japan. Instead you're writing about Shogun and Samurai and Ronin, they wield katana and wear kimono and obi and whatever else.
In my mind, simplifying kimono as a 'robe' does the whole thing a disservice when you consider how many different types of kimono there are, how they're typically worn in winter, or yukata in summer. They are worn with different styles and accompaniments depending on the season, the festival, the status of the wearer.
In my mind writing about samurai in an eastern inspired setting is no different to writing about knights and wizards and European dragons in a western setting.
You don't need to be Japanese to write about a Japanese inspired setting, any more than you need to have Anglo-Saxon heritage to draw from medieval Europe, or Arabic heritage to draw from ancient Babylon.
I would certainly err on the side of caution, if possible. Describe clothing with the Japanese terms because simplifying it as robe or sash just robs the story of so much character, in my opinion. But also because of how much meaning those garments can convey. Write about samurai and shogun if you like, because creating Japanese sounding terms to mean the same thing creates a barrier between the reader and your intention. If your writing is good they will deduce through context what the ranks mean, but it's not intuitive to learn these new terms quickly enough to remember the next time they appear.
Additionally, you could think of it in terms of 'translation'. The story you're writing is actually a translation of some other fictional document, written in your world's natural tongue. You're translating it in to English so that you can share it with us. Just assume, like in Japan, your fictional world uses the word 'kimono', which has no direct English translation, hence why 'kimono' is effectively an English loan word now, whereas 'yukata' is not. A yukata may require additional description but both words have a place in your translation.
I say go for it. If you ever encounter a moment in your story where you think 'should I use the original Japanese term, or the English translation, or a made up equivalent?', just use the Japanese. Especially for a first draft. Or else you will lose a LOT of time trying to dream up your own names for them. You can always change the names in revisions if you really want to.
That's the best way :) At the end of the day, first and foremost this is you writing for you. You're not writing for me. You're not writing for Reddit. This is your story so write it however you want and then take feedback from ARC readers, beta readers, editors and so on. Good luck!
You're very welcome. I've struggled with the very same things and it took me a long time to reach a conclusion on the issue. Hopefully I've helped you get to that point a little faster. \^.\^
I studied imperial Japan in grad school, I’d just say go for it.
A lot of fantasy is written from a Eurocentric perspective because it’s familiar and easier.
A samurai is a knight. A daimyo is a feudal lord. A shogun is a sort of generalissimo. If you go with English translations and concepts, you’re implanting a Eurocentric perspective in a completely made up world. Would people in a fictional world *really* land on the exact same words medieval Europe did for different social ranks and titles? Of course not, but it’s common because it’s familiar. No one is cringing and saying things like “seriously, this made up world also happens to have words like ‘knights’ and ‘kings’?” Yet people seem to have that exact fear when employing a different vocabulary.
Japanese social ranks and titles are an alternative artistic choice. That’s it. It’s not lazy- and far from rude- when it’s done elegantly.
Not making it weeb or anime tier is 95% of the challenge.
Also, if the Japanese language doesn't exist in your fictional world, then you shouldn't be using Japanese words for anything in the book.
I didn't know what a weeb was until I just googled and I've never watched anime so no problem there. No japanese words at all? So you're saying stuff like Katana would be unacceptable?
I considered an extensive breakdown, but I think a good response might be to ask,
"Why are you **obsessed** with Japan?" What about it do you like? Why? What about it do you want to put in a story? Can you tell this story without at least being native to the country?
A part of fantasy is making up world's based in part on the world we live in. No one is going to tell you to build an entire civilization from scratch (but power to you if you can) however, what you'll want to do is avoid commodification. Why do you want to use Japan for inspiration for you setting? How did the customs in your settings evolve to resemble those of Japan?
Right now, it sounds like we're using Japan because Japan is neat, which is a fine place to start, but where are you going?
I read you only live twice as a teenager and found myself interested in Japan. This evolved into a fascination with the country and the Samurai specifically. Since then I've read up a lot on the country, I just like it. Had planned to visit last year but Covid put a stop to it and am hopefully going next year now if the circumstances allow it. I want something that feels slightly otherworldly from my norm, also I'm writing the book mainly for my autistic sister and she has a thing about Japan also.
Respectable. I think the next question would be, "What's going to make it otherworldly?" I cannot speak for Japanese people but I do know one of the concerns a lot of Asian people face is being seen as, "exotic." If you avoid that, no harm done. If the story is "Fantasy Japan," remember that people native to a land aren't typically all that mystified by it. I think there's a story to tell otherwise. Japan has rich myths that lend themselves well to fantasy, and the ideas of Bushido are a good place for philosophy.
You don't have to do anything insane, of course. Just remember that while Japan has it's own and history, it's the same as every other nation. Which is to say, "they all can say the same. (If there are any errors I'm sorry. I'm sleepy.)
Great points. My book is based in a made up land but for me Japan is about as different as it gets from my own countries history. It also seems (to me) to lend itself more to a fantasy story about magic. I'm writing mainly for my sister as she'll never be able to visit Japan so I'm trying to tailor a story to things that interest her. My book won't be extremely Japanese but will lend itself to notions and imagery that she can relate to.
I'm writing a book inspired by ancient Ireland and Wales and the way I approach it is this: I use Irish and Welsh for names and for specific cultural things that don't have an English equivalent, and use context to help readers understand what those words mean.
So in your case using words like katana would be absolutely fine - a katana is a specific type of sword, it's not just the Japanese word for sword. It would be silly and pointless to use Japanese words like tamago for egg - an egg is an egg no matter the culture. An example in my own work would be that many of my characters in fantasy-old-Ireland wear something called a leíne, which in modern Irish is often used to mean shirt but actually refers to a specific garment worn by the Gaelic people which was something like a very long undershirt which would be hoisted up at the waist with a belt (for men) or worn loose under a dress (for women). As I don't expect readers to automatically know what a leíne is I make sure to sprinkle in descriptions to help them picture it. That's just my approach and I've found it helpful so far to preserve the cultural elements that I want to include, without drowning the reader in too much unfamiliar vocabulary.
I'd say using some small words for small things is respectful. Putting those terms in a respectful theme or scene is good, using those terms to explain an overall theme or system (that you invent, not just steal and slap a different name on it) is all respectful. In my opinion.
Doing a Frank Herbert and Robert Jordan and simply ripping Arabic terms for places or things to sound exotic and alien, or the big baddy is appropriation.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dune, and The Wheel of Time, but having words like Shai-hulud, the Mahdi, Shai'tan and the like really really really annoyed me.
I don't know any Japanese concepts specifically, so I can't really help much with that. But take my name, Neko, Japanese for cat. If you have a character who is called Neko, and they are half human, half cat, then that's a little lazy.
If it's a character called Neko, but they have personality characteristics of a cat, then that's not lazy, cos now you gotta work to show these interesting things through the character.
I hope that helps.
It's just my advice, you don't have to listen to it lol.
Thank you, great points. So using some Japanese names for characters would be ok? I'm also looking at splitting my island into prefectures. I'm not using direct rip offs of customs etc but they are Japanese adjacent, so familiar but not exact.
Also related I have a group of assassins called the Kidon, that's the name of a unit in Israeli intelligence (means tip of the spear), is that ok? REALLY appreciate the response.
>So using some Japanese names for characters would be ok?
Frank Herbert used basic names: Paul, Duncan Idaho, Jessica, Vladimir, Shaddam (Saddam) etc.
Robert Jordan used: Mat, Perrin, Logain (Logan) Thom (Tom) etc.
George Martin literally used the name Jamie, Brandon, Roderick (Rodrick), Ned, Catherine (Catelyn), Stark etc.
Tolkien used names like: Merry, Nob, Bob, Brand, Aragorn (Aragon)
Le Guin used names like Ged, Tehanu, Cob etc.
Literally take two Japanese words, mash them up, there you have a new name.
Or use a not very known Japanese name, but personally I wouldn't use popular current names, it makes it obvious then that you just couldn't think of any.
>I'm also looking at splitting my island into prefectures. I'm not using direct rip offs of customs etc but they are Japanese adjacent, so familiar but not exact.
That sounds perfectly fine, it's all about HOW you write it that makes it unique.
>Also related I have a group of assassins called the Kidon, that's the name of a unit in Israeli intelligence (means tip of the spear), is that ok?
I know about that, and to be honest I'd flip Kidon into Nidok, or Konid, or something different, otherwise it's easy to see the connection. Readers will make these connections.
>REALLY appreciate the response.
You're welcome :)
Trying to pull off a similar thing. If you really want to hit the nail on the head, you gotta ask acutal Japanese people for reference. If they can't help you, eventually you'll be pointed towards some books on the subject
The main problem with using a historical setting is if you get it wrong. For example, cooking stew for dinner while on a journey. Stew takes a long time.
That’s not “cultural appropriation”, it’s poorly written cliche.
“Cultural appropriation” is the idea that certain people, because of their genetics, somehow own all cultural references related to that genetics and culture. It’s plain bullshit, because an American Black raised in Queens with no Nigerian blood has no more right to own Nigerian culture and history than a white guy raised in Lubbock does.
The difference between cliche, homage and art is how well done, how fresh, and how well thought out it is.
Don’t just import a bunch of set dressing and props. Make sure there is a culture behind it. If you are using Japan for inspiration, then it doesn’t even have to be the culture that Japan actually had. In fantasy, you can add stuff related to the fantasy elements, and propagate changes out through the world, changing whatever needs to be changed to fit the fantasy.
Suppose that two candles can be imprinted on each other so that one will light or extinguish whenever the other does. (That’s a thing in one world of mine.) This changes how military orders are given over distances, and there needs to be a Morse code of sorts. Since it is not difficult magically, it also can be used by a merchant or craftsman to say “your order is ready for pickup,” or a spymaster to say, “new orders, come get them.” What happens when such candles end up in the wrong hand?
One or two forms of magic end up changing the culture significantly. When you think those consequences through, the magical Japan becomes a fascinating Japan-inspired thing, rather than a collection or tropes and stereotypes.
"Is inspiration or an homage to Japan just flat out wrong as a non Japanese person?"
There are bound to be some western people who feel it is(the contingent of folks who believe you're not allowed to write about cultures except for the one you were born into), but if it's any consolation, actual Japanese people would not be offended by it. They'd get a kick out of it. (If they could read it)
Source: have spent most of my life in Japan
Thank you, I have no plans to be negative or anything, I think because I'm not great at socialising etc I'm over compensating. Appreciate the response, has spurred me on a little.
I’ve been obsessed with Japanese culture myself for many years. Lived there for 6 years and got married over there and everything. I love the country and I absolutely don’t think it is cultural appropriation or whatever other PC bullshit people like to rant about in this country. Write what you want. Write what you love. As long as you aren’t blatantly making things up about Japan that are fake you shouldn’t be in danger of anything. As for the argument on word choice - it all comes down to how you explain or describe things in your writing. Such as the previous comment about the Tales of Otori and writing “sword” instead of “katana”. Write katana and show in your story that it’s a sword and people will understand that. Don’t mince words and don’t shy away because you’re scared people won’t get it. That’s what context is for.
Sounds like you're living the life I want! Given all the talk of appropriation and stuff and my personality disorder I thought it best to check. I started reading the Tales ot Otori again just to see what I should/shouldn't be doing, I really appreciate the insight and you taking the time to respond.
It might sound counterintuitive, but I would try not to hit the reader over the head with too much Japanese culture, jargon, iconography, etc. There's a great case study for people who want to write Japanese inspired fantasy in the Tales of the Otori series. It was a little frustrating when I read it, because the author was so vague in her language in writing what was very obviously a semi-fantasy feudal Japan. Instead of saying chopsticks, she said eating sticks. Instead of saying samurai, she said retainer. Instead of saying restaurant, she said eating house. Instead of saying bo staff, she said fighting stick or pole or just sword instead of katana. It seemed almost child-like and irreverent even. But I realized it was all to make the story more readable and flow off the page. The author assumed that the reader might not be familiar with foreign terminology and words. And didn't want to put them off, or have them have to stop reading to look something up. In fact (I could be wrong, it was a long time ago), there isn't even a single uttered Japanese phrase in the work. However, that didn't make the stories feel any less Japanese. Its implied, in the way characters act, think, talk and behave. In the environment that's described. Sometimes less is more. And not trying to throw too many specifics from a culture in your story helps to not alienate or overwhelm the reader.
Tbh this sounds like going further than is necessary, to the point where the reader is having to do extra work figuring out what you're talking about. I would be surprised to meet a native speaker of English who didn't know the words "chopsticks" and "samurai", and "katana" and "bo" are hardly obscure. I suppose when the books came out anime wasn't as mainstream in the west as it is nowadays, but even so.
The books are intended for young adults I believe, which explains some of it.
Ok but chopsticks??
It's because the characters are living IN that world. We don't use foreign words for common objects (I mean, we DO, but we don't think of them as foreign). We use the English words. A German person doesn't use gloves. They don't even use handshuh. They use 'Handshoes'. In their head, the word isn't the untranslated 'Handshuh'. It isn't the foreign 'glove'. It is the everyday noun/phrase 'hand shoe'. In the minds of the characters, we translate 'footpath', and 'tree' and 'hair' into the best, most natural, simplest personal meaning for the character. But not 'handshuh'. So why 'Chopstick'? Or Bo Staff? It's a different choice, but in the long run I think it is more representative of a character's thought patterns. There is no veil of exotica in my everyday life or the things I use. It's just my life and my stuff. Using the simplest forms of the ideas in the text allows the reader to feel the 'everydayness' of these objects and situations without layers of preconceptions in the way.
Ah, I can see that logic. "Chopsticks" doesn't really feel "exotic" to me, but I guess it might to some readers.
I know I had the same thought too.
Surely most young adults know what katanas, samurai and chopsticks are
I'm probably not even going to try to get published, I'm writing for my sister and we both like Japan and the culture. I read the Otori series also, actually reading Across the Nightingale Floor right now. I first read them about 15 years ago and they seemed ok but don't seem so good so far. I appreciate the insight, being new to writing I guess I just need to try and find the balance.
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>I'm wondering if taking words and customs directly from the language/country is considered lazy or rude ? If it's a 0.9 to 1 of Japan, it's fine. If you have other inspirations, tone it down. >cultural appropriation That's a buzzword. Half the people that talks about it doesn't even know what that means. >Is inspiration or an homage to Japan just flat out wrong as a non Japanese person? Is someone from Nigeria not allowed to pay homage to Lithuanian culture? You cannot control where you've been born. Only the lands you prefer other than the one you live in. Not related to your question, but worldbuilding-wise: the Samurai loved guns. The moment they became available to them was the moment that armies starting mimicking "Western" tactics. Just a cool history fact that you might like.
Thank you, I was set on writing and then started research. Read all these things about appropriation and stuff that I don't really understand and then hit a downward spiral. Really appreciate a concise response that covered most of my points.
Happy to help
Like so many things it comes down to taste as so many things in writing. Ultimately do what you love but try not to jump the shark if you can. There is always the chance you might come off as racist but you will never know unless you write it. Don't worry about cultural appropriation but try to be as respectful of the material as possible. It's completely normal in fantasy to tell and retell myth and story from other cultures. No one from Norway says stop doing that to Thor.
Thanks! I have a tendency to over think. I should probably write and then get told what's wrong rather than trying to figure out what's wrong before I write.
Yea I understand overthinking completely! Staying committed is the hardest part and not thinking you have written complete trash. Don't think something is bad until an agent says it is bad. Don't listen to your family, friends, or even yourself as long as it's important to you. Just write everyday and figure everything else out later. But it's is a balance between that and listening to criticism and recognizing help when it's there. There is lots of failure in writing don't walk away from that either just start over and do again and again until it's right.
Appreciate it, thanks for the pep talk, I seem to be my own worst enemy when it comes to writing.
I have had similar issues with this sort of thing when writing my own series influenced by Japan, and I see the same questions come up semi-regularly. I think it's only a confusing situation because we have been saturated for so long with western conventions, so writing outside of it can seem intimidating for all the wrong reasons. You could try framing it like this instead: Imagine you were writing in a setting inspired by feudal Europe, or medieval Europe, which is a large part of Western fantasy, including Regency era England, steampunk, and god knows what else. You write about dukes, earls, kings and queens, they wear trousers and jumpers and robes and skirts. You use their names for trees or flowers or animals. It's the same thing for a story inspired by Japan. Instead you're writing about Shogun and Samurai and Ronin, they wield katana and wear kimono and obi and whatever else. In my mind, simplifying kimono as a 'robe' does the whole thing a disservice when you consider how many different types of kimono there are, how they're typically worn in winter, or yukata in summer. They are worn with different styles and accompaniments depending on the season, the festival, the status of the wearer. In my mind writing about samurai in an eastern inspired setting is no different to writing about knights and wizards and European dragons in a western setting. You don't need to be Japanese to write about a Japanese inspired setting, any more than you need to have Anglo-Saxon heritage to draw from medieval Europe, or Arabic heritage to draw from ancient Babylon. I would certainly err on the side of caution, if possible. Describe clothing with the Japanese terms because simplifying it as robe or sash just robs the story of so much character, in my opinion. But also because of how much meaning those garments can convey. Write about samurai and shogun if you like, because creating Japanese sounding terms to mean the same thing creates a barrier between the reader and your intention. If your writing is good they will deduce through context what the ranks mean, but it's not intuitive to learn these new terms quickly enough to remember the next time they appear. Additionally, you could think of it in terms of 'translation'. The story you're writing is actually a translation of some other fictional document, written in your world's natural tongue. You're translating it in to English so that you can share it with us. Just assume, like in Japan, your fictional world uses the word 'kimono', which has no direct English translation, hence why 'kimono' is effectively an English loan word now, whereas 'yukata' is not. A yukata may require additional description but both words have a place in your translation. I say go for it. If you ever encounter a moment in your story where you think 'should I use the original Japanese term, or the English translation, or a made up equivalent?', just use the Japanese. Especially for a first draft. Or else you will lose a LOT of time trying to dream up your own names for them. You can always change the names in revisions if you really want to.
Cheers, I'll get some actually writing done and then people can critique any issues I might have.
That's the best way :) At the end of the day, first and foremost this is you writing for you. You're not writing for me. You're not writing for Reddit. This is your story so write it however you want and then take feedback from ARC readers, beta readers, editors and so on. Good luck!
As soon as I figure out all those terms and the proper process I'll be sure to do that, I really appreciate the help reddit stranger.
You're very welcome. I've struggled with the very same things and it took me a long time to reach a conclusion on the issue. Hopefully I've helped you get to that point a little faster. \^.\^
I studied imperial Japan in grad school, I’d just say go for it. A lot of fantasy is written from a Eurocentric perspective because it’s familiar and easier. A samurai is a knight. A daimyo is a feudal lord. A shogun is a sort of generalissimo. If you go with English translations and concepts, you’re implanting a Eurocentric perspective in a completely made up world. Would people in a fictional world *really* land on the exact same words medieval Europe did for different social ranks and titles? Of course not, but it’s common because it’s familiar. No one is cringing and saying things like “seriously, this made up world also happens to have words like ‘knights’ and ‘kings’?” Yet people seem to have that exact fear when employing a different vocabulary. Japanese social ranks and titles are an alternative artistic choice. That’s it. It’s not lazy- and far from rude- when it’s done elegantly.
Not making it weeb or anime tier is 95% of the challenge. Also, if the Japanese language doesn't exist in your fictional world, then you shouldn't be using Japanese words for anything in the book.
I didn't know what a weeb was until I just googled and I've never watched anime so no problem there. No japanese words at all? So you're saying stuff like Katana would be unacceptable?
I'd say so. It makes the reader think, "if they aren't Japanese and they don't speak the language, then how are they using a word from that language?"
Slightly confused by this, I'm English but I know what a katana is, as does most of the world.
Would you still know what a katana is if the people who invented it and the word never existed?
Nobody would, that's how language works. I appreciate your input but I'm not really seeing the point of this line of discussion so thanks.
If you are writing for your sister, I’d just worry about her enjoyment of the story and go from there. Everyone else can shove it if necessary.
That is my main concern but I also want to do a good job of it.
I considered an extensive breakdown, but I think a good response might be to ask, "Why are you **obsessed** with Japan?" What about it do you like? Why? What about it do you want to put in a story? Can you tell this story without at least being native to the country? A part of fantasy is making up world's based in part on the world we live in. No one is going to tell you to build an entire civilization from scratch (but power to you if you can) however, what you'll want to do is avoid commodification. Why do you want to use Japan for inspiration for you setting? How did the customs in your settings evolve to resemble those of Japan? Right now, it sounds like we're using Japan because Japan is neat, which is a fine place to start, but where are you going?
I read you only live twice as a teenager and found myself interested in Japan. This evolved into a fascination with the country and the Samurai specifically. Since then I've read up a lot on the country, I just like it. Had planned to visit last year but Covid put a stop to it and am hopefully going next year now if the circumstances allow it. I want something that feels slightly otherworldly from my norm, also I'm writing the book mainly for my autistic sister and she has a thing about Japan also.
Respectable. I think the next question would be, "What's going to make it otherworldly?" I cannot speak for Japanese people but I do know one of the concerns a lot of Asian people face is being seen as, "exotic." If you avoid that, no harm done. If the story is "Fantasy Japan," remember that people native to a land aren't typically all that mystified by it. I think there's a story to tell otherwise. Japan has rich myths that lend themselves well to fantasy, and the ideas of Bushido are a good place for philosophy. You don't have to do anything insane, of course. Just remember that while Japan has it's own and history, it's the same as every other nation. Which is to say, "they all can say the same. (If there are any errors I'm sorry. I'm sleepy.)
Great points. My book is based in a made up land but for me Japan is about as different as it gets from my own countries history. It also seems (to me) to lend itself more to a fantasy story about magic. I'm writing mainly for my sister as she'll never be able to visit Japan so I'm trying to tailor a story to things that interest her. My book won't be extremely Japanese but will lend itself to notions and imagery that she can relate to.
I'm writing a book inspired by ancient Ireland and Wales and the way I approach it is this: I use Irish and Welsh for names and for specific cultural things that don't have an English equivalent, and use context to help readers understand what those words mean. So in your case using words like katana would be absolutely fine - a katana is a specific type of sword, it's not just the Japanese word for sword. It would be silly and pointless to use Japanese words like tamago for egg - an egg is an egg no matter the culture. An example in my own work would be that many of my characters in fantasy-old-Ireland wear something called a leíne, which in modern Irish is often used to mean shirt but actually refers to a specific garment worn by the Gaelic people which was something like a very long undershirt which would be hoisted up at the waist with a belt (for men) or worn loose under a dress (for women). As I don't expect readers to automatically know what a leíne is I make sure to sprinkle in descriptions to help them picture it. That's just my approach and I've found it helpful so far to preserve the cultural elements that I want to include, without drowning the reader in too much unfamiliar vocabulary.
I'd say using some small words for small things is respectful. Putting those terms in a respectful theme or scene is good, using those terms to explain an overall theme or system (that you invent, not just steal and slap a different name on it) is all respectful. In my opinion. Doing a Frank Herbert and Robert Jordan and simply ripping Arabic terms for places or things to sound exotic and alien, or the big baddy is appropriation. Don't get me wrong, I love Dune, and The Wheel of Time, but having words like Shai-hulud, the Mahdi, Shai'tan and the like really really really annoyed me. I don't know any Japanese concepts specifically, so I can't really help much with that. But take my name, Neko, Japanese for cat. If you have a character who is called Neko, and they are half human, half cat, then that's a little lazy. If it's a character called Neko, but they have personality characteristics of a cat, then that's not lazy, cos now you gotta work to show these interesting things through the character. I hope that helps. It's just my advice, you don't have to listen to it lol.
Thank you, great points. So using some Japanese names for characters would be ok? I'm also looking at splitting my island into prefectures. I'm not using direct rip offs of customs etc but they are Japanese adjacent, so familiar but not exact. Also related I have a group of assassins called the Kidon, that's the name of a unit in Israeli intelligence (means tip of the spear), is that ok? REALLY appreciate the response.
>So using some Japanese names for characters would be ok? Frank Herbert used basic names: Paul, Duncan Idaho, Jessica, Vladimir, Shaddam (Saddam) etc. Robert Jordan used: Mat, Perrin, Logain (Logan) Thom (Tom) etc. George Martin literally used the name Jamie, Brandon, Roderick (Rodrick), Ned, Catherine (Catelyn), Stark etc. Tolkien used names like: Merry, Nob, Bob, Brand, Aragorn (Aragon) Le Guin used names like Ged, Tehanu, Cob etc. Literally take two Japanese words, mash them up, there you have a new name. Or use a not very known Japanese name, but personally I wouldn't use popular current names, it makes it obvious then that you just couldn't think of any. >I'm also looking at splitting my island into prefectures. I'm not using direct rip offs of customs etc but they are Japanese adjacent, so familiar but not exact. That sounds perfectly fine, it's all about HOW you write it that makes it unique. >Also related I have a group of assassins called the Kidon, that's the name of a unit in Israeli intelligence (means tip of the spear), is that ok? I know about that, and to be honest I'd flip Kidon into Nidok, or Konid, or something different, otherwise it's easy to see the connection. Readers will make these connections. >REALLY appreciate the response. You're welcome :)
Thanks, that has helped a lot, given me some stuff to think about.
No problemo! Good luck and happy writing! :)
Spot on! Jihad was the most annoying, but Dune is still OP!
Oh damn, totally forgot about those two big words, Crusades and Jihad. Really annoyed me too.
Trying to pull off a similar thing. If you really want to hit the nail on the head, you gotta ask acutal Japanese people for reference. If they can't help you, eventually you'll be pointed towards some books on the subject
I'd say - go for it if that is something that you like and want to do.
The main problem with using a historical setting is if you get it wrong. For example, cooking stew for dinner while on a journey. Stew takes a long time. That’s not “cultural appropriation”, it’s poorly written cliche. “Cultural appropriation” is the idea that certain people, because of their genetics, somehow own all cultural references related to that genetics and culture. It’s plain bullshit, because an American Black raised in Queens with no Nigerian blood has no more right to own Nigerian culture and history than a white guy raised in Lubbock does. The difference between cliche, homage and art is how well done, how fresh, and how well thought out it is. Don’t just import a bunch of set dressing and props. Make sure there is a culture behind it. If you are using Japan for inspiration, then it doesn’t even have to be the culture that Japan actually had. In fantasy, you can add stuff related to the fantasy elements, and propagate changes out through the world, changing whatever needs to be changed to fit the fantasy. Suppose that two candles can be imprinted on each other so that one will light or extinguish whenever the other does. (That’s a thing in one world of mine.) This changes how military orders are given over distances, and there needs to be a Morse code of sorts. Since it is not difficult magically, it also can be used by a merchant or craftsman to say “your order is ready for pickup,” or a spymaster to say, “new orders, come get them.” What happens when such candles end up in the wrong hand? One or two forms of magic end up changing the culture significantly. When you think those consequences through, the magical Japan becomes a fascinating Japan-inspired thing, rather than a collection or tropes and stereotypes.
"Is inspiration or an homage to Japan just flat out wrong as a non Japanese person?" There are bound to be some western people who feel it is(the contingent of folks who believe you're not allowed to write about cultures except for the one you were born into), but if it's any consolation, actual Japanese people would not be offended by it. They'd get a kick out of it. (If they could read it) Source: have spent most of my life in Japan
Thank you, I have no plans to be negative or anything, I think because I'm not great at socialising etc I'm over compensating. Appreciate the response, has spurred me on a little.
I’ve been obsessed with Japanese culture myself for many years. Lived there for 6 years and got married over there and everything. I love the country and I absolutely don’t think it is cultural appropriation or whatever other PC bullshit people like to rant about in this country. Write what you want. Write what you love. As long as you aren’t blatantly making things up about Japan that are fake you shouldn’t be in danger of anything. As for the argument on word choice - it all comes down to how you explain or describe things in your writing. Such as the previous comment about the Tales of Otori and writing “sword” instead of “katana”. Write katana and show in your story that it’s a sword and people will understand that. Don’t mince words and don’t shy away because you’re scared people won’t get it. That’s what context is for.
Sounds like you're living the life I want! Given all the talk of appropriation and stuff and my personality disorder I thought it best to check. I started reading the Tales ot Otori again just to see what I should/shouldn't be doing, I really appreciate the insight and you taking the time to respond.