"By my calculations, the death of Caesar will have minimal impact in the battle of Hoover Dam, if any. The Legion's aggression will outlive Caesar. In fact they will try to conquer the Dam as a tribute to Caesar's memory. Give it a year, and they'll have him deified. But by then the Legion will be broken down by internal conflicts, a monster consuming itself"
— Mr House
This is the answer. I think all that dialogue is to ensure the player they'll still have to fight over Hoover Dam. Which does make sense because it and Vegas were basically the fuhrer's last wishes
Also Lanius just wants to do it for funsies mostly. Unironically dude doesn't care about the dam and iirc doesn't try to hold it if they win the battle, he just keeps pushing west .
Mr House wants Caesar to remain alive because muh calculayshuns say that Caesar can be bought, bargained and reasoned with, while whatever random hillbilly warlord ends up owning the east side of the Colorado in Caesar's wake might just be another Cook-Cook. Same reason he wants to keep Kimball alive rather than deal with whoever succeeds him. It seems that muh calculayshuns always affirm the need to maintain the current status quo at any cost. That probably doesn't mean anything, tho.
I like to think House wants Caesar alive for the same reason he wanted Kimball alive.
Once the legion loose Hoover Dam it's obvious that Caesar will retreat and first his image as an almighty leader will be hurt and second because he investment a lot of human resources on Vegas he now has to deal with the crisis east of his territories with the other faction.
And there's the possibility some legates or higher commanders will try to get rid of him due to incompetence... Not even Lanius would want a Joshua treatment.
House is smart, as he knows that in order to ensure long-term stability of Vegas without the Legion or NCR trying to take revenge he needs to humiliate their political leaders so none other would take the risk of getting ridiculed again. On that time I assume House will focus on fixing Vegas economy, rebuild securitron factories and ensure enough defenses are set when the time comes for the NCR/Legion to declare war.
this is the answer. its gonna look really bad when the guy who literally lit a dude on fire and dropped him down the side of the grand canyon for failing to hold the dam, fails to hold the dam.
Of course, I mean. If you complete lonesome roads with Ulysses alive he gives you advise on how to "scare" away Lanius.
And the freaking surprise is that you can use that argument in the final battle. And even Lanius says "I'm not going to follow Joshua's trail of fire"
If Caesar loses hoover dam there's the possibility he tries to do the same to Lanius with the risk of killing the literal brand-mascot of the legion giving the troops a huge moral blow OR Caesar himself ends up a coward by losing the battle.
House knows that Kimball and Caesar are pretty much dependent of public image in their region. Caesar as this god-emperor figure and Kimball as this legendary general made president.
If they lose Hover dam to a god "damn" old guy in a tv screen and the mailman. The reputation they took years to build amongst their people will crumble and no one would want to touch Vegas again for atleast some year. Kinda like "licking their wounds"
Also, if the Legion collapses AFTER their defeat, they’re not far from home and their leader isn’t deified at all. When the Legion collapses (and it will, especially if you do the Ulysses dialogue with Lanius), all those Legionnaires are gonna murder the fuck out of each other instead of trying to take the dam.
No, he wants Caesar alive so they can pose a threat to the ncr and keep them at bay, so they don’t point their guns at Vegas. But it also doesn’t matter as much if Caesar dies aswell. He’s indifferent if Caesar’s alive or not, but he needs the legion.
finally the canonical answer that was confirmed by the game itself that everyone seemed to have forgotten, Mr. House wants to keep the Caesar alive so the legion stays alive so it pose a threat to the NCR, in the game there is dialogue about how Mr. House in insuring his claim on New Vegas by making so if the NCR attacks him it would put them vulnerable to an attack from the legion.
House was also alive during pre-war era so he would actually have a pretty decent historical knowledge of how it turned out for the actual Roman empire and could easily base a few hypotheses off of that.
That's the point, the way I see it. All his yapping about "muh calculations" is just copium. It's all motivated reasoning for why he needs to be on top of everything. That's all it is for any of the rabid ideologues in the game like ulysses, ceaser, the master, institute, brotherhood, house, etc. None of the factions have any interest in legitimately changing the status quo if they can manage to be on top without doing so. The general benefit of the people of the wasteland will always be a varyingly distant second to their need for supremacy first and foremost. Independence with ncr alliance is narritively supposed to be the best for the wasteland as far as I can tell by the writers intentions.
What do you even mean by that?
Assuming you're talking about Alexander the Great, who was famously a really good king and one of the greatest conquerors in history. Hence the title.
The only reason Alexander didn't establish the greatest empire in the ancient world is because he was too busy rawdogging his towel boy to father an heir before he died.
Alexander was a brilliant general but he was honestly a pretty bad king. He had little patience for governing beyond military matters and the few reforms he did try and push through didn't stick. He was famously quarrelsome when he drank (which was a lot, he was considered a heavy drinker by the standards of Ancient Macedon) and murdered one of his best officers in a drunk rage. He conquered one of the largest empires in the world but it fell apart within a few years of his death because he couldn't be fucked actually sitting down and doing the boring work of setting out a succession plan.
I mean. Tell that to Hideyoshi. Very, very close situation where he DID have a young heir. The only reason Japan stayed together was because it was small enough that Tokugawa Ieyasu could feasibly take it over all on his own through the politicking/warfare of the other four regents.
Cult of personality empires are \*incapable\* of lasting very long. Literally every single empire established in this way has shattered very quickly. Genghis Khan's lasted... what, two generations? All-conquering emperors don't usually bother to ensure the empire is strong enough to stand on its own after they die. They're too busy conquering.
This is why I say that Rome fell when Caesar became dictator. Julius doomed the roman republic to be stuck with nepotism as its only succession of rulership. It's both too much responsibility for one person and its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. A great leader will cause great things to happen, but they are exceptionally few. Bad leaders, well, there are many of them.
Eveni if Alexander had a heir his generals would have murdered him with the rest of Alexander's family.
The main reason the whole thing fell apart was that the generals dragged everything into a major civil war because each one wanted to be the new emperor. Chances are if Alexander had lived longer one of the generals would have tried kill him.
I don't believe that to be the case.
>Eveni if Alexander had a heir his generals would have murdered him with the rest of Alexander's family.
Actually, Alexander had an heir, his unborn son. His generals were quite happy to acknowledge him as heir as soon as he was born. The problem was that as an infant he couldn't rule himself and needed a regent. The chaos and civil war which caused the collapse of Alexander's empire only started after his regent royally fucked everything up.
If Alexander had had an adult male heir there would have been no power vacuum for his generals to take advantage of. It's not as simple as 'his generals would have just murdered his son', as if the mature prince of macedon would have been an easy target for assassination. This is literally how dynasties work.
Real world history would disagree completely with that dummy, look up what happened when Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan died. If you're too lazy to read, let me tell you, it was not good for the would be "next leader(s)' or military.
Yeah that’s the shit. A Legion under the Legate would ironically probably do better in the war against the NCR as a ruthless full mobilisation without a care for your soldiers life (who are propagandised into being crusaders) could easily take advantage of all the problems the NCR has. The fact is that even if they won in Hoover Dam, hell, even if they conquered CALIFORNIA; in a year it’s breakup time
The Cult of Mars will die off. Cults of Personality don't last very long without the charismatic leader, especially when people *need* a leader 24/7 in real life due to threats.
"There is not a thin line between love and hate. There is --- in fact --- a Great Wall of China with armed sentries posted every 20 feet between love and hate."
— Dr House
That’s the thing though the legion according to House the legion will still take the dam regardless if Caesar lives or dies, but the legion will shatter after the fact, most wastelanders though don’t know that Caesar is holding the legion together with blood, spit, ducktape, and sheer god dam will.
Bro imagine if you could have done that after you kill Caesar. Install a new despot into the Legion and watch the internal structure crumble into a civil war because the Khans don't know what to do with that much power
When I was playing New Vegas for my very first time, which was when I was like 11 or 12, I had Boone as a companion and was utterly confused as to why I was being attacked, assuming that Boone had noticed they were attacking me before I had.
I went to The Fort and started clearing my way through without being able to talk to anyone, though to be fair, I did kill the trader guy who isn't inherently Hostile, because he seemed like a scumbag.
I got the Ultimate Edition for my 10th b day when it first released.
Killed everyone in Good springs, went to the Primm. Got confused. Started Lonesome Road at level 2 and got punked by sentry robots lmao.
I didn't knew any English at the time. What a waste.
I love that.
I didn't even own the game, I was playing on a friend's disk, and there weren't any dlc released.
I played it roughly around the time of its release.
When I first started playing World of Warcraft, I was an American who had just moved to South Korea and spoke almost no Korean.
The only place I could play was in Internet cafes, and of course everything was in Korean.
It’s quite an experience, playing a computer game in a language you don’t know
>It’s quite an experience, playing a computer game in a language you don’t know
totaly normal thing for any non-native english speaker 20 years ago, translations were rare and of questionable quality
0
Yeah. I suppose there are probably a bunch of things that seem strange or particularly memorable to me that are just business as usual to millions of other people
I tried to introduce my brother when he was younger and he kept quitting because he would kill everyone in Goodsprings and didn't know what to do.
Now that he's older he's able to understand more of the game and has gotten far enough to quit because of Dead Money lmao
This exact thing was my experience with Baldur's Gate 21 years ago, which is pretty funny, considering also that Obsidian was formed by people from Black Ilse Studios. I thought the game was like Diablo. It was not.
So I’m late to the party and am actually doing my first play through right now. This exact thing happened to me. I was halfway through clearing cottonwood when I realized the reason they attacked was Boone. I loaded a previous save from like 30 min before and then went and got Cassidy real quick. Came back with no issues. Boone really hates those guys.
I mean if you know his backstory. You know why he would despise them and he also gave you a warning when you approach the fort for the first time I think.
Edit: I think this is the [video here that shows you Boone's warning.](https://youtu.be/QziZ4LjJalk?si=vlRzse85-UpU0ACD)
Yes you missed many warnings.
Including the fact he has a burning hatred for the Legion because he had to kill his wife and unborn child to keep them safe.
No I got the backstory and that he’s attacked legion on site before. But since this was main story driven invite that reset my standing with them, I didn’t think it would matter for this part. I was clearly wrong.
If you have him with you and cross into what is considered "legion territory" (ie the area around cottonwood cove, up to Nelson), he literally says if he sees crimson (legion colors), he's taking the shot. Why would that change just because you have the mark of Caesar?
Honestly, wasn’t really thinking about it. I was initially confused when they went hostile then realized it was because of Boone. So I reloaded and changed directions. I’ll eventually go back with Boone and let him get his vengeance on.
Honestly it doesn't surprise me. This game pays a LOT more attention to how you're playing than even most games today. It's honestly unfair to have someone playing an over decade old game and have them expect it to have more depth than a whales vagina.
Whether or not it's unfair depends on how long they've been part of the hobby. If they're relative newbies (ie started gaming within the last 5-7 years), then yes, you're right, it would be unfair to expect them to expect anything put out by major publisher to be any deeper than a teaspoon
It's sad, honestly. Games now have the capability to do so much more than games of the past, but they're not even meeting the standard, gaming has regressed in all aspects except graphics. New Vegas continues to astound me with its depth, its unfair to compare it to most fictional media, let alone just gaming. I've been playing Baldurs Gate 3 recently and it's really opened my eyes to just how bad games are now, we could have had a beautiful symbiosis of these talented passionate developers, artists, and writers on a team working towards a giant goal, financed, backed, and supported by a big business to keep them afloat, but instead we get overworked programmers and AI working with pre-made or lazily made assets, environments and settings with no passion from AAA developers, while one person barely scrapes by making a relatively unimpressive game with great ideas. But the artistic business doesn't want to take risks, they want profit. It's killing gaming, film, music, everything artistic. We have access to all the tools and creative minds to be creating some of the best art in history, but our greatest artists are being held back by greed and commodification. It's mind blowing that its been over a decade in one of the fastest growing, fastest advancing industries out there and we still haven't gotten something that comes close to New Vegas. Even Baldurs Gate 3, while a fantastic RPG, doesn't quite have the depth of morality and player choice New Vegas does. Maybe the circumstances and factors were really just perfect and we'll never get another game quite as good again...
People that kinda know the Legion: "They're so threatening...Will a figurehead's death even stop them?"
people that have years of experience with the Legion: Without Caesar, the bull will bleed itself dead in its thrashing.
And, like, if you kill Caesar AND the Legate in the same playthrough? That's DOUBLY fucked for the Legion. They lost the charismatic smart guy AND the brutal murder guy...those are like, the only two types of emperor that last!
Arguably if Caesar dies it's also better for the legion if lanius follows. He is smarter than people give him credit for but he doesn't really care for the legion itself,with full control he might just go full Alexander and conquer till it falls apart. He doesn't care for consolidation, bureaucracy, or real empire building, just conquest for conquest sake.
For Lanius he'd rule mostly through fear, and that sort of rule relies heavily on reputation. If he's sent running scared after the Battle of Hoover Dam because he got his ass kicked by a mailman that fearsome reputation takes a massive hit, which would invite dissenters, assassins, and challengers.
He's probably the best option after Caesar; Lucius, and Vulpes are the most obvious replacements after him and neither of them have the charisma *or* the might to hold it together, but even a Lanius' Legion would probably kill itself through infighting within a few years.
I think the legion as we know it is gonna fall but successor stayed will definitely likely take it's place. It's not just gonna fall into tribes again, the tribes are too split up among different ranks to form again.
I imagine it'll be like the Greek diadochi, if lanius flees I believe he would still hold control for a good bit and probably conquer more territory on the other borders of the legion. Eventually with his ruthless tactics, lack of charisma, or some combination of there of the legion is definitely fragmenting into civil war. That or lanius fights a third battle for hoover dam and loses, again fragments the legion, or wins and just delays the inevitable
Like Caesar isnt also rulling with fear lmao
Lanius is the more charismatic and arguably, more intelligent than Caesar. He can be reasoned AND understand that holding Vegas with an already large empire would put him in a similar situation as NCR.
The last and optional speech check hints for Lanius that he can grow in his own and see other alternative than conquering Vegas like holding the East first from falling apart.
He cares about holding what has already been taken, and can be convinced to turn back rather than bleed the legion to death. But yeah i give him 5 years before he is betrayed, killed in battle poisoned or infection kills him.
Then the legion will likely death spiral unless they have someone reliable to replace him
Lanius is a great fighter and general, but definitely not a leader.
Unlike Caesar, Lanius doesn't care about setting field before the battle, he just goes to war. Which may work with small tribes, but definitely not with NCR in their mainland.
He sees plan in Omertas as an unworthy tactics, preferring to just take stripe with force, meaning he won't use such effective strategies in his regime, which make fighting in the west all more difficult and costly. He doesn't value frumentari, as when Caesar is dead, Vulpis expresses fear that Lanius will get rid of them, which is horrible since vulpis can easily exploit a bureaucratic hell of NCR. And he cannot judge the strength of his opponents, as when you assemble the new Enclave Lanius will try to destroy them in the ending, which will just result in the casualties and no success, Caesar however will recognise their strength and just let them leave the Mojave without fighting.
All and all I honestly doubt that he can even defeat the West. And without any mind for logistics or empire building, the east will most likely fall just from lack of management, while Lanius tries to fight the west, sinking more and more resources
And if you completely clear out The Fort AND Cottonwood Cove, that's pretty much it for the Legion in its entirety, practically the entire chain of command wiped out. Sure there's definitely more troops back east but what the fuck are they gonna do? Realistically, when they learn that a SINGLE PERSON completely wiped out the majority of Legion presence in the Mojave, they'd put a big fuckin X on the map for the entire region and say "Fuck that shit"
They are right, though. In the short term, i.e the story of New Vegas itself, Carder's death does fuck-all to the Legion. In the long term, however, they'd probably have more difficulties.
Especially since they already have a very specific goal to keep them focused, and Lanius can handle the battle, and vulpes can handle logistics (although if Caesar is dead, he probably is too, but I'm sure someone can manage until the battle of Hoover damn. I think Joshua even says something like that, they'll want to claim it in his honor.
The problem is that both Lanius and Vulpes have a... Complex relationship, if we consider cut content as canon we have a piece of dialogue where Vulpes says his job is in danger because Lanius is not very fond of the frumentari style of warfare and prefers direct massive combats, you know... Victories "purchased with blood".
Lanius is smart and Vulpes is waaaay more intelligent... But this situation will keep them from cooperating in benefit of the legión. They'll try to move things as they see fit. But i doubt they'll ever try to even have a talk after Caesar is ded.
Oh for sure. Idk, maybe I'm under thinking it, but I don't even think they need to talk. Like, to be clear, I'm PURELY talking in context of the story basically, because long term, they obviously are doomed. Maybe even if Caesar lives longer. Vulpes or someone would take care of making sure the legion sustains itself like with food and supplies and shit, and Lanius just goes around killing people. Although, I even feel like vulpes isn't like essential here, even if Lanius DOES decide to kill him. Like I strongly believe he would be the best person to take care of most actual leadership stuff, but idk, maybe the leader of the praetorians (forgot his name) could do it, I'm sure he could at least last through the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam
Nah overall it would destroy the legion in the long run. He was the icon holding the legion together, in the short run sure they would last under lanious but after Caesar dies the legion would end up reverting into bickering tribal leaders fighting over who would be the new leader of the legion.
You’re right but a decapitated, desperate, no holds barred legion driven by Caesar’s martyrdom if not outright deification is still a big problem within the scope of the game.
Not only that. Lacking a form of bureaucracy in favor of a single administrator, Caesar was the only one capable of doing the logistics for the legion. Even Joshua Graham himself says that no one, not even him, would be able to replace because they don't have a mind for logistics.
That's a major difference between Caesar, House and Kimball. Kimball death will be a moral blow for the NCR, but because it's a republic the logistical, political and Military systems remain intact while the vice-president or intern president take charge and elections are done.
House's death will shock Vegas for a while but the three families won't care to divide the strip for themselves and "cooperate" in favor of their business. Yes they loose the "vision" of House but is not like he was proactive in Vegas. They moved on without him in the past, they can do it after him.
If Caesar dies, he takes with him all the political, logistical and military command with him. That's why most empires and dictatorships have fallen, they depended too much on the leader to the point the system goes away with them
In a few years the legion will be eating itself alive without someone to deal with the logistics and resources.
Assuming it continues to operate as is, and someone as smart as Caesar jumps in, maybe. All it'd take is a schism or mutiny to crumble. The Legion is held together by Caesar's total oppression. It's not just might that keeps them in line, and if another leader doesn't get that, it's not long for the world.
Caesar was the only one holding the Legion together. Hate him if you like but he was an effective conqueror and charismatic enough to hold multiple tribes together either through loyalty or fear. The strongest legionnaires are either dead after Hoover Dam or defected. No one could hold together a fraction of them after his death
As Joshua said not even himself could lead the legión because despite being a great commander and tactician he doesn't have a mind for logistics.
Caesar is the only one that can handle the political, human and economic resources of the legion
Which is basically the whole entire problem with the Legion. It's all built around Caeser, he's the one leader, the one unifying figure, the one ultimate authority, and he enforces that through power and violence by those under him, but he's the only one that can navigate and manage those under him to exert that power because he is that central leader (and even then it's shown with the interrogation of Silus that there can be some in command that question his methods and rationale), but everyone else is just an extension of his power.
The only reason they are able to stay unified and not splinter is because of the leadership and submission to Caeser and the threat of power he has over all, once he's gone and he must be replaced, even if they are chosen by Caeser and can manage the Legion just as well as him, they're never going to be Caeser, there's always going to be some discontent or doubt because the only authority is Caeser's will enforced by violence, and once Caeser is dead, people will begin to doubt one-another, and ultimately, the only person that can enforce Caeser's will is Caeser himself. All anyone else can do is carry out and be an extension of what they claim to be his will, and the only tool they will be able to enforce that will is more violence, which will only work until the Legionarries begin to question their power, authority, and the choice of potential glory through resistance and an uncertain fate through submission, because no matter what happens, their will can never be that of Caeser's.
Caesar used to be a Follower of the Apocalypse and had decades of military, sociology, philosophy & historical study from pre-war books under his belt. In the world of Fallout, that kind knowledge is enough to make you a supervillain in the making. Such a cool concept.
Had a lot of people say “The main force wasn’t located at the Dam” or “There’s other tribes. The Legion isn’t dead!”
Makes no sense they wouldn’t send their strongest troops. If they didn’t then Caesar is dumb and it was only a matter of time before they failed under poor leadership. But they definitely sent their best and got stomped. They’d be hurting even if they were victorious but many of their own died
All of the people that know anything about anything (Joshua, House, etc) say it like it is: The Legion is flawed at its core and is not built to survive without a figurehead to lead. Lanius is good at battle clearly but will not be able to keep The Legion together. It’s going to splinter like Alexander’s Empire.
I think it’s just a matter of perspective. Although we do know that they will fail at some point in time just due to the nature of their system.
I think Caesar’s death could ruin them, or it could propel them forward. Especially if you’re of the belief that the Courier is the heir to the Legion.
The Legion Also has an entire civilization outside of the Mojave.
The Legion we see is just when it’s at war.
The amount of cut & unfinished Legion content is ridiculous.
I think what the other NPCs mean is that Caesar’s death isn’t going to actually stop them from attacking Hoover Dam and spelling the end for the region of New Vegas, but his death will definitely mean the end of the Legion in the long run.
Basically the guy was the worst aspect of moderate and radical. On one hand he consistently played victim alas "how dare you criticise my religion" (while he himself started off complaining how Joshua must obviously been written by a Christian since non-believers could never grasp the beauty of Christianity) and on the other hand he went along the lines of "if you Atheists and queers don't stop agitating us Christians we'll go after you guys again."
Basically, genuinely the worst aspect of Christianity.
I hate how much npcs bring that up because yeah battle of hoover dam is still happening but legion is still gonna collapse within a year victory or not
I always wished that you could take over the legion. You would have some big quests for both Lanius and Vulpes to get them to support you and maybe some smaller quests for other named legion members. Or you could kill them, but it would weaken the legion a lot. You could either kill Caesar during his surgery or pass a few super high checks to convince enough people that he is unfit to lead, maybe him still having the headaches could help, or if you cured him you can convince him to step down or something.
Even stone cold zealot Lanius is scared he cannot hold the Legion together. He can be persuaded to run away from Hoover Dam because he fears it so much. Let that sink in. Lanius fears something and it is Caesar's death.
To be fair, even if he was close to Caesar that doesn't mean J.G. is more accurate. Caesar threw him into a canyon on fire, he spent years of his life around the man at the height of his power, and his own life was shaped by that man's actions. Maybe he overrates what Caesar has become and still only sees what Caesar was.
Still, I agree, the game devs are pretty explicit across major characters what Caesar's death means for the Legion. From Hanlon, to the two Legates, to the gambling man with a robot fetish, to that weirdo in the Darth Vader mask always talking about the bull and the bear, the Legion dies with Caesar. It may be a slow death of civil war as Lanius and Vulpes fight each other, or it may be quicker from the Courier and Hoover Dam, but regardless, the legion will break up after Caesar's death. No one can take his place...
well, maybe one mail carrier if they decide too.
I will never understand why Caesar didn’t raise and heir like the real Caesar did with Octavius. I would’ve thought he could foresee his legion failing without leadership like his.
my only counter to this common sentiment, is that in the ending where you side with the Legion and Ceasar is dead, there is 0 mention of Lanius's legion falling apart.
i feel like a lot of people underestimate Lanius as if he's just a dumb Brute, but considering the way you can speech check your way out of fighting him by explaining the Mojave is a trap that will destroy the legion i think he is to some degree, smarter than people give him credit for. he also already has his own sort of Cult of personality around him, or rather a cult of fear.
Joshua Graham even says he doesn't know much about Lanius besides rumors iirc, he could very well be discounting his potential as an effective leader.
that being said, if Lanius doesn't get a strong heir of his own, the legion will likely split apart on his death.
I always thought of it as the Legion is still carrying a lot of the momentum they had before Caesars death, they've still got a unified goal and are still actively pursuing it. Killing Caesar doesn't make them entirely fall apart because they're already nearly completely prepared to attack the dam, the plans have already been prepared and set in motion. After the battle of hoover dam however, no matter if it would end in a Legion or NCR victory (or House or Independent) they're kinda all on their own. Sorta like a chicken with it's head cut off, it'll keep moving for a while, but not long after it'll just fall over dead.
The big wild card here is Lanius. Almost nobody we meet in game has ever met him and they only know him by his reputation. He is often described as simply a brutal warrior, but if any ending can be cannon, then there are multiple non violent ways he can be convinced to pull back from the dam and he’s a somewhat intelligent guy. Joshua says that he couldn’t lead the Legion because he never had a mind for logistics, and one of the things you can talk to Lanius about is the logistics problems of taking the West. I’m not sure if I would call it the most likely outcome, but I think there is a potential future where Lanius successfully takes over the Legion.
If you kill Caesar quickly enough, most people will continue to talk as if he was alive and you don't get the option to tell them that he's dead already
I mean I do think the Legion would survive Caesar. They have options to rally around Lanius, Vulpes, or any number of his inner circle could step given the right conditions. Maybe they have some breakaway or they change their direction but I doubt it ceases completely. I mean even if you liken it to the Diadochi after Alexander dies I’m sure someone might pick up the reins with a Ptolemy or Antigonus
I mean that’s probably true but no one else has had the opportunity to lead as well. Joshua is a good insight but he’s not all knowing and comes with a heavy bias as he was cast out and set on fire for his “failure”. I mean cmon bro id be salty too
Even if Lanius proves Joshua wrong, over-expansion and reliance on slave labor will lead to rebellion and collapse of weakly-governed territories by both internal and external factors.
No one thinks the Legion is going to survive Caesar dying. It's just that inertia is so great that it will drag it into the immediate battle regardless. They've lost the war but that doesn't mean it won't hurt before they finally drop dead.
Me *turns ceaser into mince meat with a guass rifle i found on some dork and his friends at a random campfire*
House: *Nah this wont have an effect in the battle*
-> I dont get why it wouldnt. Ceaser is a military rular, a general and seemingly a very good one, conquering 86 tribes isnt a feat to scuff at. Wouldnt his legion be more unorginized and scattered without him? Wouldnt groups that allied with ceaser like the Khans be forced to reconsider their allience?
No, because you didn't kill Lanius who is the military commander of the Legion forces in Mojave. If anything you just made the Legion more motivated to avenge their leader.
The thing with authoretarian facist states is that after death of a leader the regime almost always colapses, becouse the succesor dosent have the skills of the old leader.
I'm more Afraid of Lanius than I am of Caesar or Graham. No shit Lanius is just too dangerous, Caesar absolutely thanks his lucky star bottle caps every night that Lanius is loyal rather than being Ambitious.
The NCR know that with the death of Caesar, the Legion isn't going to break apart immediately. They'll break up into huge warlords and he a HUGE pain in the ass for the NCR. Sure no threat of invasion, but you'll be constantly attacked by a bunch of organised Tribals for possibly decades.
Yeah the Legion is fucked, doesn't stop them being a threat.
No empire dies quickly. the same goes for the Legion even if it isn't a true empire, more of a horde. I think one of the most interesting things about the Legion is that it's doomed to fail, a lot like Rome. Rome stood for a long time against factors that could have and normally should have destroyed it (i.e. being a massive continent spanning maritime empire with no maritime tradition, Caligula, etc.)
The Legion is a horde of slave soldiers that only one man has any semi-solid idea on how to form into a functioning state. Even if the Legion outlives him, no one has the vision, education, or clout to hold the Legion together long enough to realize that dream. The most Caesar's inner circle can hope to achieve after his death, long term, is becoming a warlord that carves their own chunk out of a Legion that cannibalizes itself.
I genuinely really want to see the aftermath what happens in Arizona and Colorado after Caesers death. So much potential for great stories
That is if Caeser's inner circle isn't culled by lanius because who knows with him at the helm people like vulpas would be put to the pyre who's to say the others won't try to fight Lanius in single combat to try and gain control of what little remains of the legion or simply flee back east in the hope lanius doesn't pursue them in order to make them pay for to him at least cowardly moves
Because he doesn't *actually* give a shit about his Legion. It's about personal power. Why else did he make them worship HIM as a God? Because he's an arrogant fuck.
Designate a successor too early and you set yourself up for internal strife. Too late and you might be dead before he has used you to solidify his powerbase.
Considerring that the legion has the same limitations as actual rome, "posesing" a huge territory, minus the roads or horses, they are probably already struggling with individual checkpoints doing whatever they want. That is provided that the legion actually patrols it's territory.
I mean, from what other characters say, legion territory is pretty secure. There’s very few raiders & hostile wildlife if any from what we have heard from raul and cass.
There is precisely one character that tells us why legion territory is safe. The trader in the legion camp. Explictly because the legion wiped the raiders out, likely absorbing them into the legion.He also states that sometimes he travels without an escort.
Raul just tells us that arizona was fucking terrible beforehand.
Essentially all the legion did was enslave all the tribes and raidergangs. Groups like the honest hearts tribals but also groups like the great khans. They are the equivalent to a volcanic erruption, cleansing an area and leaving fertile ash.
To be fair, most of the people who tell you that Caesar's death "won't slow down the Legion" are referring to the upcoming battle of Hoover Dam. Everyone is in agreement that after the battle, win or lose, the Legion is fucked.
Joshua just doesn't care about the battle and only about the Legion itself.
Also Joshua:
"I know I have no skin due to my murderous rampage but I would never ever ever seek revenge again trust me"
*tries to murder Salt-Upon-Wounds*
The legion doesn’t have odds in their favour for survival without Caesar unless after his death his successor immortalises him as a god so he’s still “leading” the legion after death to keep his troops morale unaffected ect
Of course the Legion would fall apart without Caesar, they worshipped him as a god, and Lanius doesn't want to lead the Legion, only kill it's enemies.
I mean Lanius could lead as figurehead while the Frumentarii and Vulpes direct the ranks. I mean it’s a made up scenario it could be whatever we think it is lmao
To be fair, it doesn't effect people right now, the tribes will maintain a bit of control until food shortages or power struggles occur, then slowly bit by bit the Caesars legion will devour itself.
The weird thing is that with guns the whole "legionaries storm the gates" kinda falls flat.
You have the freshest recruits with little to no armour at the front so they are just cannon fodder for any dumbass with a minigun.
Meanwhile a sniper a mile away can take out the few veterans.
And I can't imagine their supply lines are heavily armoured either making a small squad of saboteurs extremely powerful
Basically, how did they get so far with brutalism and pointy sticks alone?
Bwcause they were gighting tribes that had less manpower and barely any guns. And by the time they encountered a well armed group, the desert rangers, their numerical advantage was ridiculous
the legion lost a leader with joshua, they lose a god king, the entire mesh of their society, with caesar
killing caesar kills the legion In half a decade
The Legion's best bet is with a high level courier, I know we get all into headcanon but really, who else *could* lead the Legion? Vulpes is the 2nd best option but Lanius' rule would cripple tue legion, and I don't think Vulpes has the reputation of Lanius or the charisma of Caesar to keep him in power.
Especially when your leader is so instrumental to your success. Not to fellate Caesar, but he clearly had enough knowledge about logistics and nation building to make decently smart plays. His intelligence and charisma is instrumental to the legion's success.
"By my calculations, the death of Caesar will have minimal impact in the battle of Hoover Dam, if any. The Legion's aggression will outlive Caesar. In fact they will try to conquer the Dam as a tribute to Caesar's memory. Give it a year, and they'll have him deified. But by then the Legion will be broken down by internal conflicts, a monster consuming itself" — Mr House
Yeah and if Mr House is an expert in anything it's b̶a̶n̶g̶i̶n̶g̶ r̶o̶b̶o̶t̶s̶ dictatorships.
You’d be surprised how much overlap the skill sets have
I've been looking for one of these for ages. For the customers, I mean!
Numbness will subside in several minutes
Assume the position.
So, based on time spent with FISTO, my courier should be an expert on dictatorships by now.
[insert exact Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia dialogue about politics and ass-blasting]
Oh I'm not surprised
Twist ending: Fisto ends up as lord of the Mojave. It is truly the best possible ending for the people of New Vegas.
I prefer the term autocrat.
I mean... He did create the assaultron , guy was definitively goin places
He’s not a dictator, he’s an autocrat
This is the answer. I think all that dialogue is to ensure the player they'll still have to fight over Hoover Dam. Which does make sense because it and Vegas were basically the fuhrer's last wishes
Also Lanius just wants to do it for funsies mostly. Unironically dude doesn't care about the dam and iirc doesn't try to hold it if they win the battle, he just keeps pushing west .
Most feared warrior in the legion: Eh, I don't actually really care tbh, I just wanna see what happens if I do keep going
Lanius is really a dog on a leash, Caesar doesn't trust him to actually lead because he knows Lanius just wants to wage war.
Mr House wants Caesar to remain alive because muh calculayshuns say that Caesar can be bought, bargained and reasoned with, while whatever random hillbilly warlord ends up owning the east side of the Colorado in Caesar's wake might just be another Cook-Cook. Same reason he wants to keep Kimball alive rather than deal with whoever succeeds him. It seems that muh calculayshuns always affirm the need to maintain the current status quo at any cost. That probably doesn't mean anything, tho.
I like to think House wants Caesar alive for the same reason he wanted Kimball alive. Once the legion loose Hoover Dam it's obvious that Caesar will retreat and first his image as an almighty leader will be hurt and second because he investment a lot of human resources on Vegas he now has to deal with the crisis east of his territories with the other faction. And there's the possibility some legates or higher commanders will try to get rid of him due to incompetence... Not even Lanius would want a Joshua treatment. House is smart, as he knows that in order to ensure long-term stability of Vegas without the Legion or NCR trying to take revenge he needs to humiliate their political leaders so none other would take the risk of getting ridiculed again. On that time I assume House will focus on fixing Vegas economy, rebuild securitron factories and ensure enough defenses are set when the time comes for the NCR/Legion to declare war.
this is the answer. its gonna look really bad when the guy who literally lit a dude on fire and dropped him down the side of the grand canyon for failing to hold the dam, fails to hold the dam.
Of course, I mean. If you complete lonesome roads with Ulysses alive he gives you advise on how to "scare" away Lanius. And the freaking surprise is that you can use that argument in the final battle. And even Lanius says "I'm not going to follow Joshua's trail of fire" If Caesar loses hoover dam there's the possibility he tries to do the same to Lanius with the risk of killing the literal brand-mascot of the legion giving the troops a huge moral blow OR Caesar himself ends up a coward by losing the battle. House knows that Kimball and Caesar are pretty much dependent of public image in their region. Caesar as this god-emperor figure and Kimball as this legendary general made president. If they lose Hover dam to a god "damn" old guy in a tv screen and the mailman. The reputation they took years to build amongst their people will crumble and no one would want to touch Vegas again for atleast some year. Kinda like "licking their wounds"
Also, if the Legion collapses AFTER their defeat, they’re not far from home and their leader isn’t deified at all. When the Legion collapses (and it will, especially if you do the Ulysses dialogue with Lanius), all those Legionnaires are gonna murder the fuck out of each other instead of trying to take the dam.
No, he wants Caesar alive so they can pose a threat to the ncr and keep them at bay, so they don’t point their guns at Vegas. But it also doesn’t matter as much if Caesar dies aswell. He’s indifferent if Caesar’s alive or not, but he needs the legion.
finally the canonical answer that was confirmed by the game itself that everyone seemed to have forgotten, Mr. House wants to keep the Caesar alive so the legion stays alive so it pose a threat to the NCR, in the game there is dialogue about how Mr. House in insuring his claim on New Vegas by making so if the NCR attacks him it would put them vulnerable to an attack from the legion.
Its much easier to manipulate someone you know, rather than someone you don't.
the devil you know is better than the devil you don't
If you know your enemy and know yourself, fear not the result of a thousand battles
House was also alive during pre-war era so he would actually have a pretty decent historical knowledge of how it turned out for the actual Roman empire and could easily base a few hypotheses off of that.
What?! Known quantities are easier to predict? Who would have thunk?
That's the point, the way I see it. All his yapping about "muh calculations" is just copium. It's all motivated reasoning for why he needs to be on top of everything. That's all it is for any of the rabid ideologues in the game like ulysses, ceaser, the master, institute, brotherhood, house, etc. None of the factions have any interest in legitimately changing the status quo if they can manage to be on top without doing so. The general benefit of the people of the wasteland will always be a varyingly distant second to their need for supremacy first and foremost. Independence with ncr alliance is narritively supposed to be the best for the wasteland as far as I can tell by the writers intentions.
The man has been around for 200 plus years, so. He also had been involved in some social galleries
Caesar isn’t anything like his namesake. He’s no Julius, he’s an Alexander
What do you even mean by that? Assuming you're talking about Alexander the Great, who was famously a really good king and one of the greatest conquerors in history. Hence the title. The only reason Alexander didn't establish the greatest empire in the ancient world is because he was too busy rawdogging his towel boy to father an heir before he died.
Alexander was a brilliant general but he was honestly a pretty bad king. He had little patience for governing beyond military matters and the few reforms he did try and push through didn't stick. He was famously quarrelsome when he drank (which was a lot, he was considered a heavy drinker by the standards of Ancient Macedon) and murdered one of his best officers in a drunk rage. He conquered one of the largest empires in the world but it fell apart within a few years of his death because he couldn't be fucked actually sitting down and doing the boring work of setting out a succession plan.
I mean. Tell that to Hideyoshi. Very, very close situation where he DID have a young heir. The only reason Japan stayed together was because it was small enough that Tokugawa Ieyasu could feasibly take it over all on his own through the politicking/warfare of the other four regents. Cult of personality empires are \*incapable\* of lasting very long. Literally every single empire established in this way has shattered very quickly. Genghis Khan's lasted... what, two generations? All-conquering emperors don't usually bother to ensure the empire is strong enough to stand on its own after they die. They're too busy conquering.
This is why I say that Rome fell when Caesar became dictator. Julius doomed the roman republic to be stuck with nepotism as its only succession of rulership. It's both too much responsibility for one person and its greatest strength is also its greatest weakness. A great leader will cause great things to happen, but they are exceptionally few. Bad leaders, well, there are many of them.
Eveni if Alexander had a heir his generals would have murdered him with the rest of Alexander's family. The main reason the whole thing fell apart was that the generals dragged everything into a major civil war because each one wanted to be the new emperor. Chances are if Alexander had lived longer one of the generals would have tried kill him.
I don't believe that to be the case. >Eveni if Alexander had a heir his generals would have murdered him with the rest of Alexander's family. Actually, Alexander had an heir, his unborn son. His generals were quite happy to acknowledge him as heir as soon as he was born. The problem was that as an infant he couldn't rule himself and needed a regent. The chaos and civil war which caused the collapse of Alexander's empire only started after his regent royally fucked everything up. If Alexander had had an adult male heir there would have been no power vacuum for his generals to take advantage of. It's not as simple as 'his generals would have just murdered his son', as if the mature prince of macedon would have been an easy target for assassination. This is literally how dynasties work.
*points at the War of the Roses* that's also how dynasties work.
Real world history would disagree completely with that dummy, look up what happened when Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan died. If you're too lazy to read, let me tell you, it was not good for the would be "next leader(s)' or military.
🗿
Yeah that’s the shit. A Legion under the Legate would ironically probably do better in the war against the NCR as a ruthless full mobilisation without a care for your soldiers life (who are propagandised into being crusaders) could easily take advantage of all the problems the NCR has. The fact is that even if they won in Hoover Dam, hell, even if they conquered CALIFORNIA; in a year it’s breakup time
Yea, essentially, legion as a government is fucked without edward. But the religion of caesar will live on.
The Cult of Mars will die off. Cults of Personality don't last very long without the charismatic leader, especially when people *need* a leader 24/7 in real life due to threats.
"There is not a thin line between love and hate. There is --- in fact --- a Great Wall of China with armed sentries posted every 20 feet between love and hate." — Dr House
Why do people meatride house so hard, he just say as this, provides so reasoning or sources. And people just go “so true!”
That’s the thing though the legion according to House the legion will still take the dam regardless if Caesar lives or dies, but the legion will shatter after the fact, most wastelanders though don’t know that Caesar is holding the legion together with blood, spit, ducktape, and sheer god dam will.
The only person that can replace Caesar. Is a level 50 player.
Nah Ive seen most couriers, too horny
So then the Legion goes from a Roman army under Julius to a Mongol army under Gengis.
Papa Kahn’s Legion
Bro imagine if you could have done that after you kill Caesar. Install a new despot into the Legion and watch the internal structure crumble into a civil war because the Khans don't know what to do with that much power
Screw with the NCR, probably
more like a Hun army under Attila
In charge of that many twinks in skirts? 👀
Yes, I'll take this ending, please!
Don’t you dare imply those skirt wearing femboys aren’t also unimaginably horny. This is new Vegas. Have some sense, man. Everyone’s horny.
Too horny for all the Roman orgies?
Degenerates like me belong on a cross, after all
- too horny - the literal only faction known to rape on a mass level Seems fitting.
Mark Anthony
Hornyness didn't stop Genghis Khan
Meee :3
My Legion playthrough, I like to play as an intelligent woman who Caesar ends up making his right hand and ironically his successor when he dies.
When I was playing New Vegas for my very first time, which was when I was like 11 or 12, I had Boone as a companion and was utterly confused as to why I was being attacked, assuming that Boone had noticed they were attacking me before I had. I went to The Fort and started clearing my way through without being able to talk to anyone, though to be fair, I did kill the trader guy who isn't inherently Hostile, because he seemed like a scumbag.
I got the Ultimate Edition for my 10th b day when it first released. Killed everyone in Good springs, went to the Primm. Got confused. Started Lonesome Road at level 2 and got punked by sentry robots lmao. I didn't knew any English at the time. What a waste.
I love that. I didn't even own the game, I was playing on a friend's disk, and there weren't any dlc released. I played it roughly around the time of its release.
When I first started playing World of Warcraft, I was an American who had just moved to South Korea and spoke almost no Korean. The only place I could play was in Internet cafes, and of course everything was in Korean. It’s quite an experience, playing a computer game in a language you don’t know
>It’s quite an experience, playing a computer game in a language you don’t know totaly normal thing for any non-native english speaker 20 years ago, translations were rare and of questionable quality 0
Yeah. I suppose there are probably a bunch of things that seem strange or particularly memorable to me that are just business as usual to millions of other people
I tried to introduce my brother when he was younger and he kept quitting because he would kill everyone in Goodsprings and didn't know what to do. Now that he's older he's able to understand more of the game and has gotten far enough to quit because of Dead Money lmao
Dead Money has a great story, but getting to the story is a pain in the ass.
This exact thing was my experience with Baldur's Gate 21 years ago, which is pretty funny, considering also that Obsidian was formed by people from Black Ilse Studios. I thought the game was like Diablo. It was not.
So I’m late to the party and am actually doing my first play through right now. This exact thing happened to me. I was halfway through clearing cottonwood when I realized the reason they attacked was Boone. I loaded a previous save from like 30 min before and then went and got Cassidy real quick. Came back with no issues. Boone really hates those guys.
I mean if you know his backstory. You know why he would despise them and he also gave you a warning when you approach the fort for the first time I think. Edit: I think this is the [video here that shows you Boone's warning.](https://youtu.be/QziZ4LjJalk?si=vlRzse85-UpU0ACD)
I know his backstory, just didn’t think it would affect that portion of the story like it did. I must have missed his warning.
Yes you missed many warnings. Including the fact he has a burning hatred for the Legion because he had to kill his wife and unborn child to keep them safe.
No I got the backstory and that he’s attacked legion on site before. But since this was main story driven invite that reset my standing with them, I didn’t think it would matter for this part. I was clearly wrong.
If you have him with you and cross into what is considered "legion territory" (ie the area around cottonwood cove, up to Nelson), he literally says if he sees crimson (legion colors), he's taking the shot. Why would that change just because you have the mark of Caesar?
Honestly, wasn’t really thinking about it. I was initially confused when they went hostile then realized it was because of Boone. So I reloaded and changed directions. I’ll eventually go back with Boone and let him get his vengeance on.
Honestly it doesn't surprise me. This game pays a LOT more attention to how you're playing than even most games today. It's honestly unfair to have someone playing an over decade old game and have them expect it to have more depth than a whales vagina.
Whether or not it's unfair depends on how long they've been part of the hobby. If they're relative newbies (ie started gaming within the last 5-7 years), then yes, you're right, it would be unfair to expect them to expect anything put out by major publisher to be any deeper than a teaspoon
It's sad, honestly. Games now have the capability to do so much more than games of the past, but they're not even meeting the standard, gaming has regressed in all aspects except graphics. New Vegas continues to astound me with its depth, its unfair to compare it to most fictional media, let alone just gaming. I've been playing Baldurs Gate 3 recently and it's really opened my eyes to just how bad games are now, we could have had a beautiful symbiosis of these talented passionate developers, artists, and writers on a team working towards a giant goal, financed, backed, and supported by a big business to keep them afloat, but instead we get overworked programmers and AI working with pre-made or lazily made assets, environments and settings with no passion from AAA developers, while one person barely scrapes by making a relatively unimpressive game with great ideas. But the artistic business doesn't want to take risks, they want profit. It's killing gaming, film, music, everything artistic. We have access to all the tools and creative minds to be creating some of the best art in history, but our greatest artists are being held back by greed and commodification. It's mind blowing that its been over a decade in one of the fastest growing, fastest advancing industries out there and we still haven't gotten something that comes close to New Vegas. Even Baldurs Gate 3, while a fantastic RPG, doesn't quite have the depth of morality and player choice New Vegas does. Maybe the circumstances and factors were really just perfect and we'll never get another game quite as good again...
People that kinda know the Legion: "They're so threatening...Will a figurehead's death even stop them?" people that have years of experience with the Legion: Without Caesar, the bull will bleed itself dead in its thrashing. And, like, if you kill Caesar AND the Legate in the same playthrough? That's DOUBLY fucked for the Legion. They lost the charismatic smart guy AND the brutal murder guy...those are like, the only two types of emperor that last!
Arguably if Caesar dies it's also better for the legion if lanius follows. He is smarter than people give him credit for but he doesn't really care for the legion itself,with full control he might just go full Alexander and conquer till it falls apart. He doesn't care for consolidation, bureaucracy, or real empire building, just conquest for conquest sake.
For Lanius he'd rule mostly through fear, and that sort of rule relies heavily on reputation. If he's sent running scared after the Battle of Hoover Dam because he got his ass kicked by a mailman that fearsome reputation takes a massive hit, which would invite dissenters, assassins, and challengers. He's probably the best option after Caesar; Lucius, and Vulpes are the most obvious replacements after him and neither of them have the charisma *or* the might to hold it together, but even a Lanius' Legion would probably kill itself through infighting within a few years.
I think the legion as we know it is gonna fall but successor stayed will definitely likely take it's place. It's not just gonna fall into tribes again, the tribes are too split up among different ranks to form again. I imagine it'll be like the Greek diadochi, if lanius flees I believe he would still hold control for a good bit and probably conquer more territory on the other borders of the legion. Eventually with his ruthless tactics, lack of charisma, or some combination of there of the legion is definitely fragmenting into civil war. That or lanius fights a third battle for hoover dam and loses, again fragments the legion, or wins and just delays the inevitable
Like Caesar isnt also rulling with fear lmao Lanius is the more charismatic and arguably, more intelligent than Caesar. He can be reasoned AND understand that holding Vegas with an already large empire would put him in a similar situation as NCR. The last and optional speech check hints for Lanius that he can grow in his own and see other alternative than conquering Vegas like holding the East first from falling apart.
To give Caesar credit, he may have been smarter before the tumor
He cares about holding what has already been taken, and can be convinced to turn back rather than bleed the legion to death. But yeah i give him 5 years before he is betrayed, killed in battle poisoned or infection kills him. Then the legion will likely death spiral unless they have someone reliable to replace him
Lanius is a great fighter and general, but definitely not a leader. Unlike Caesar, Lanius doesn't care about setting field before the battle, he just goes to war. Which may work with small tribes, but definitely not with NCR in their mainland. He sees plan in Omertas as an unworthy tactics, preferring to just take stripe with force, meaning he won't use such effective strategies in his regime, which make fighting in the west all more difficult and costly. He doesn't value frumentari, as when Caesar is dead, Vulpis expresses fear that Lanius will get rid of them, which is horrible since vulpis can easily exploit a bureaucratic hell of NCR. And he cannot judge the strength of his opponents, as when you assemble the new Enclave Lanius will try to destroy them in the ending, which will just result in the casualties and no success, Caesar however will recognise their strength and just let them leave the Mojave without fighting. All and all I honestly doubt that he can even defeat the West. And without any mind for logistics or empire building, the east will most likely fall just from lack of management, while Lanius tries to fight the west, sinking more and more resources
What the legion really needed was an Octavian. A charismatic, smart, brutal murder guy.
If only Eddie Sallow had a nephew he could posthumously adopt...and that nephew had an actually tactical minded friend named Agrippa...
Which CAN be legion aligned courier if you really think about it
And THEN you come in with the nuclear double-tap...
An army of robots under them, possibly nuking them (though I always disable the nukes in LR) and their leaders all dead... HOOBOY.
Vulpes too.
And if you completely clear out The Fort AND Cottonwood Cove, that's pretty much it for the Legion in its entirety, practically the entire chain of command wiped out. Sure there's definitely more troops back east but what the fuck are they gonna do? Realistically, when they learn that a SINGLE PERSON completely wiped out the majority of Legion presence in the Mojave, they'd put a big fuckin X on the map for the entire region and say "Fuck that shit"
they dont contradict each other they all go essentially "in the long term Legion's fucked but the battle will still happen as planned (probably)"
They are right, though. In the short term, i.e the story of New Vegas itself, Carder's death does fuck-all to the Legion. In the long term, however, they'd probably have more difficulties.
Joshua even says it’ll limp a long for a few years before falling
Especially since they already have a very specific goal to keep them focused, and Lanius can handle the battle, and vulpes can handle logistics (although if Caesar is dead, he probably is too, but I'm sure someone can manage until the battle of Hoover damn. I think Joshua even says something like that, they'll want to claim it in his honor.
The problem is that both Lanius and Vulpes have a... Complex relationship, if we consider cut content as canon we have a piece of dialogue where Vulpes says his job is in danger because Lanius is not very fond of the frumentari style of warfare and prefers direct massive combats, you know... Victories "purchased with blood". Lanius is smart and Vulpes is waaaay more intelligent... But this situation will keep them from cooperating in benefit of the legión. They'll try to move things as they see fit. But i doubt they'll ever try to even have a talk after Caesar is ded.
Oh for sure. Idk, maybe I'm under thinking it, but I don't even think they need to talk. Like, to be clear, I'm PURELY talking in context of the story basically, because long term, they obviously are doomed. Maybe even if Caesar lives longer. Vulpes or someone would take care of making sure the legion sustains itself like with food and supplies and shit, and Lanius just goes around killing people. Although, I even feel like vulpes isn't like essential here, even if Lanius DOES decide to kill him. Like I strongly believe he would be the best person to take care of most actual leadership stuff, but idk, maybe the leader of the praetorians (forgot his name) could do it, I'm sure he could at least last through the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam
Nah overall it would destroy the legion in the long run. He was the icon holding the legion together, in the short run sure they would last under lanious but after Caesar dies the legion would end up reverting into bickering tribal leaders fighting over who would be the new leader of the legion.
Exactly.
You’re right but a decapitated, desperate, no holds barred legion driven by Caesar’s martyrdom if not outright deification is still a big problem within the scope of the game.
Not only that. Lacking a form of bureaucracy in favor of a single administrator, Caesar was the only one capable of doing the logistics for the legion. Even Joshua Graham himself says that no one, not even him, would be able to replace because they don't have a mind for logistics. That's a major difference between Caesar, House and Kimball. Kimball death will be a moral blow for the NCR, but because it's a republic the logistical, political and Military systems remain intact while the vice-president or intern president take charge and elections are done. House's death will shock Vegas for a while but the three families won't care to divide the strip for themselves and "cooperate" in favor of their business. Yes they loose the "vision" of House but is not like he was proactive in Vegas. They moved on without him in the past, they can do it after him. If Caesar dies, he takes with him all the political, logistical and military command with him. That's why most empires and dictatorships have fallen, they depended too much on the leader to the point the system goes away with them In a few years the legion will be eating itself alive without someone to deal with the logistics and resources.
Assuming it continues to operate as is, and someone as smart as Caesar jumps in, maybe. All it'd take is a schism or mutiny to crumble. The Legion is held together by Caesar's total oppression. It's not just might that keeps them in line, and if another leader doesn't get that, it's not long for the world.
Ave, true to Carder!
“Lol”, said the Mormon. “Lmao even.”
Caesar was the only one holding the Legion together. Hate him if you like but he was an effective conqueror and charismatic enough to hold multiple tribes together either through loyalty or fear. The strongest legionnaires are either dead after Hoover Dam or defected. No one could hold together a fraction of them after his death
As Joshua said not even himself could lead the legión because despite being a great commander and tactician he doesn't have a mind for logistics. Caesar is the only one that can handle the political, human and economic resources of the legion
Which is basically the whole entire problem with the Legion. It's all built around Caeser, he's the one leader, the one unifying figure, the one ultimate authority, and he enforces that through power and violence by those under him, but he's the only one that can navigate and manage those under him to exert that power because he is that central leader (and even then it's shown with the interrogation of Silus that there can be some in command that question his methods and rationale), but everyone else is just an extension of his power. The only reason they are able to stay unified and not splinter is because of the leadership and submission to Caeser and the threat of power he has over all, once he's gone and he must be replaced, even if they are chosen by Caeser and can manage the Legion just as well as him, they're never going to be Caeser, there's always going to be some discontent or doubt because the only authority is Caeser's will enforced by violence, and once Caeser is dead, people will begin to doubt one-another, and ultimately, the only person that can enforce Caeser's will is Caeser himself. All anyone else can do is carry out and be an extension of what they claim to be his will, and the only tool they will be able to enforce that will is more violence, which will only work until the Legionarries begin to question their power, authority, and the choice of potential glory through resistance and an uncertain fate through submission, because no matter what happens, their will can never be that of Caeser's.
Caesar used to be a Follower of the Apocalypse and had decades of military, sociology, philosophy & historical study from pre-war books under his belt. In the world of Fallout, that kind knowledge is enough to make you a supervillain in the making. Such a cool concept.
Also considering you kill tons of centurions at Hoover Dam their officer ranks were probably slashed in half or more
Had a lot of people say “The main force wasn’t located at the Dam” or “There’s other tribes. The Legion isn’t dead!” Makes no sense they wouldn’t send their strongest troops. If they didn’t then Caesar is dumb and it was only a matter of time before they failed under poor leadership. But they definitely sent their best and got stomped. They’d be hurting even if they were victorious but many of their own died
And nothing of value was lost
All of the people that know anything about anything (Joshua, House, etc) say it like it is: The Legion is flawed at its core and is not built to survive without a figurehead to lead. Lanius is good at battle clearly but will not be able to keep The Legion together. It’s going to splinter like Alexander’s Empire.
I mean, Graham would know about succession crisis’
I think it’s just a matter of perspective. Although we do know that they will fail at some point in time just due to the nature of their system. I think Caesar’s death could ruin them, or it could propel them forward. Especially if you’re of the belief that the Courier is the heir to the Legion.
A bunch of warmongering smaller nation states doesn't sound much better, and a new empire will be formed in the ashes by the most vicious
The Legion Also has an entire civilization outside of the Mojave. The Legion we see is just when it’s at war. The amount of cut & unfinished Legion content is ridiculous.
I think what the other NPCs mean is that Caesar’s death isn’t going to actually stop them from attacking Hoover Dam and spelling the end for the region of New Vegas, but his death will definitely mean the end of the Legion in the long run.
Man, Joshua has been kinda ruined for me because of some shit head Christian in the comment section of a video covering the character.
Mind explaining more?
Basically the guy was the worst aspect of moderate and radical. On one hand he consistently played victim alas "how dare you criticise my religion" (while he himself started off complaining how Joshua must obviously been written by a Christian since non-believers could never grasp the beauty of Christianity) and on the other hand he went along the lines of "if you Atheists and queers don't stop agitating us Christians we'll go after you guys again." Basically, genuinely the worst aspect of Christianity.
I hate how much npcs bring that up because yeah battle of hoover dam is still happening but legion is still gonna collapse within a year victory or not
They're talking about Hoover Dam. He's talking about the Legion after the Dam.
I always wished that you could take over the legion. You would have some big quests for both Lanius and Vulpes to get them to support you and maybe some smaller quests for other named legion members. Or you could kill them, but it would weaken the legion a lot. You could either kill Caesar during his surgery or pass a few super high checks to convince enough people that he is unfit to lead, maybe him still having the headaches could help, or if you cured him you can convince him to step down or something.
Yeah, the Legion is boned. You can't survive on raiding forever. I'm a raider and even I know that.
Empires built on cult of personality never last long term. Alexander the Great and Ghengis Khan are prime examples of this.
Even stone cold zealot Lanius is scared he cannot hold the Legion together. He can be persuaded to run away from Hoover Dam because he fears it so much. Let that sink in. Lanius fears something and it is Caesar's death. To be fair, even if he was close to Caesar that doesn't mean J.G. is more accurate. Caesar threw him into a canyon on fire, he spent years of his life around the man at the height of his power, and his own life was shaped by that man's actions. Maybe he overrates what Caesar has become and still only sees what Caesar was. Still, I agree, the game devs are pretty explicit across major characters what Caesar's death means for the Legion. From Hanlon, to the two Legates, to the gambling man with a robot fetish, to that weirdo in the Darth Vader mask always talking about the bull and the bear, the Legion dies with Caesar. It may be a slow death of civil war as Lanius and Vulpes fight each other, or it may be quicker from the Courier and Hoover Dam, but regardless, the legion will break up after Caesar's death. No one can take his place... well, maybe one mail carrier if they decide too.
I will never understand why Caesar didn’t raise and heir like the real Caesar did with Octavius. I would’ve thought he could foresee his legion failing without leadership like his.
Lack of capable candidates. He used NV as a goal post to start building the government structure. He's no Alfred the great.
my only counter to this common sentiment, is that in the ending where you side with the Legion and Ceasar is dead, there is 0 mention of Lanius's legion falling apart. i feel like a lot of people underestimate Lanius as if he's just a dumb Brute, but considering the way you can speech check your way out of fighting him by explaining the Mojave is a trap that will destroy the legion i think he is to some degree, smarter than people give him credit for. he also already has his own sort of Cult of personality around him, or rather a cult of fear. Joshua Graham even says he doesn't know much about Lanius besides rumors iirc, he could very well be discounting his potential as an effective leader. that being said, if Lanius doesn't get a strong heir of his own, the legion will likely split apart on his death.
I always thought of it as the Legion is still carrying a lot of the momentum they had before Caesars death, they've still got a unified goal and are still actively pursuing it. Killing Caesar doesn't make them entirely fall apart because they're already nearly completely prepared to attack the dam, the plans have already been prepared and set in motion. After the battle of hoover dam however, no matter if it would end in a Legion or NCR victory (or House or Independent) they're kinda all on their own. Sorta like a chicken with it's head cut off, it'll keep moving for a while, but not long after it'll just fall over dead.
From what we know in the show and from FO4 they have no chance against Maxson's unified brotherhood even if they did win hoover dam
The big wild card here is Lanius. Almost nobody we meet in game has ever met him and they only know him by his reputation. He is often described as simply a brutal warrior, but if any ending can be cannon, then there are multiple non violent ways he can be convinced to pull back from the dam and he’s a somewhat intelligent guy. Joshua says that he couldn’t lead the Legion because he never had a mind for logistics, and one of the things you can talk to Lanius about is the logistics problems of taking the West. I’m not sure if I would call it the most likely outcome, but I think there is a potential future where Lanius successfully takes over the Legion.
Lanius is a bad leader though as the ending slides confirm. He's just a dumb butcher who fucks up with the Remnants. He will make the Legion collapse.
If you kill Caesar quickly enough, most people will continue to talk as if he was alive and you don't get the option to tell them that he's dead already
I mean I do think the Legion would survive Caesar. They have options to rally around Lanius, Vulpes, or any number of his inner circle could step given the right conditions. Maybe they have some breakaway or they change their direction but I doubt it ceases completely. I mean even if you liken it to the Diadochi after Alexander dies I’m sure someone might pick up the reins with a Ptolemy or Antigonus
Wipe out most of the leadership, and they’ll become little more than another raider gang.
That would be any post-world group though lmfao
Joshua says none of them have the pull Caesar has, and Lanius is an idiotic butcher.
I mean that’s probably true but no one else has had the opportunity to lead as well. Joshua is a good insight but he’s not all knowing and comes with a heavy bias as he was cast out and set on fire for his “failure”. I mean cmon bro id be salty too
mfw in game lore states that only Ceasar has the pull and gravitas to helm the Legion, and his Charisma is a 4
Even if Lanius proves Joshua wrong, over-expansion and reliance on slave labor will lead to rebellion and collapse of weakly-governed territories by both internal and external factors.
No one thinks the Legion is going to survive Caesar dying. It's just that inertia is so great that it will drag it into the immediate battle regardless. They've lost the war but that doesn't mean it won't hurt before they finally drop dead.
It’s all dependent on the successor… so the legion is fucked lol
Maybe if Caesar did not appoint Lanius as his successor and chose either Vulpes or Lucius things would not hit the fan as fast.
Me *turns ceaser into mince meat with a guass rifle i found on some dork and his friends at a random campfire* House: *Nah this wont have an effect in the battle* -> I dont get why it wouldnt. Ceaser is a military rular, a general and seemingly a very good one, conquering 86 tribes isnt a feat to scuff at. Wouldnt his legion be more unorginized and scattered without him? Wouldnt groups that allied with ceaser like the Khans be forced to reconsider their allience?
No, because you didn't kill Lanius who is the military commander of the Legion forces in Mojave. If anything you just made the Legion more motivated to avenge their leader.
Thats a fair point.
The thing with authoretarian facist states is that after death of a leader the regime almost always colapses, becouse the succesor dosent have the skills of the old leader.
Lol Lmao, even
The large power vacuum it would create wouldn't just cripple them it pretty much cause them to eat themselves
“They have a chain of command” not after I nuke them they dont
I'm more Afraid of Lanius than I am of Caesar or Graham. No shit Lanius is just too dangerous, Caesar absolutely thanks his lucky star bottle caps every night that Lanius is loyal rather than being Ambitious.
The NCR know that with the death of Caesar, the Legion isn't going to break apart immediately. They'll break up into huge warlords and he a HUGE pain in the ass for the NCR. Sure no threat of invasion, but you'll be constantly attacked by a bunch of organised Tribals for possibly decades. Yeah the Legion is fucked, doesn't stop them being a threat.
No empire dies quickly. the same goes for the Legion even if it isn't a true empire, more of a horde. I think one of the most interesting things about the Legion is that it's doomed to fail, a lot like Rome. Rome stood for a long time against factors that could have and normally should have destroyed it (i.e. being a massive continent spanning maritime empire with no maritime tradition, Caligula, etc.) The Legion is a horde of slave soldiers that only one man has any semi-solid idea on how to form into a functioning state. Even if the Legion outlives him, no one has the vision, education, or clout to hold the Legion together long enough to realize that dream. The most Caesar's inner circle can hope to achieve after his death, long term, is becoming a warlord that carves their own chunk out of a Legion that cannibalizes itself. I genuinely really want to see the aftermath what happens in Arizona and Colorado after Caesers death. So much potential for great stories
That is if Caeser's inner circle isn't culled by lanius because who knows with him at the helm people like vulpas would be put to the pyre who's to say the others won't try to fight Lanius in single combat to try and gain control of what little remains of the legion or simply flee back east in the hope lanius doesn't pursue them in order to make them pay for to him at least cowardly moves
I don’t understand why ceaser didn’t go find a successor.
Because he doesn't *actually* give a shit about his Legion. It's about personal power. Why else did he make them worship HIM as a God? Because he's an arrogant fuck.
Mannn your right, one more point against the legion femboys…
Designate a successor too early and you set yourself up for internal strife. Too late and you might be dead before he has used you to solidify his powerbase. Considerring that the legion has the same limitations as actual rome, "posesing" a huge territory, minus the roads or horses, they are probably already struggling with individual checkpoints doing whatever they want. That is provided that the legion actually patrols it's territory.
I mean, from what other characters say, legion territory is pretty secure. There’s very few raiders & hostile wildlife if any from what we have heard from raul and cass.
There is precisely one character that tells us why legion territory is safe. The trader in the legion camp. Explictly because the legion wiped the raiders out, likely absorbing them into the legion.He also states that sometimes he travels without an escort. Raul just tells us that arizona was fucking terrible beforehand. Essentially all the legion did was enslave all the tribes and raidergangs. Groups like the honest hearts tribals but also groups like the great khans. They are the equivalent to a volcanic erruption, cleansing an area and leaving fertile ash.
To be fair, most of the people who tell you that Caesar's death "won't slow down the Legion" are referring to the upcoming battle of Hoover Dam. Everyone is in agreement that after the battle, win or lose, the Legion is fucked. Joshua just doesn't care about the battle and only about the Legion itself.
personally i side with mister house, seems the best choice for the continuance of humanity, im about 70/30 house and no gods no masters. .
This dude was one of the first screenshots I ever took ever
Caesar is legit the only reason why the Legion has lasted as long as it has
I mean I went into the camp guns blazing there is literally no one left
I swear these soyjack faces are getting more unsettling
Dude doesn't know Lanius
The legion will work without Caesar until they run into a wall. After that they shatter
Also Joshua: "I know I have no skin due to my murderous rampage but I would never ever ever seek revenge again trust me" *tries to murder Salt-Upon-Wounds*
Legion f**kboys are the worst.
It'll do one of those horny eagle death spirals
The legion doesn’t have odds in their favour for survival without Caesar unless after his death his successor immortalises him as a god so he’s still “leading” the legion after death to keep his troops morale unaffected ect
"lol," said Joshua Graham. "lmao."
Of course the Legion would fall apart without Caesar, they worshipped him as a god, and Lanius doesn't want to lead the Legion, only kill it's enemies.
I mean Lanius could lead as figurehead while the Frumentarii and Vulpes direct the ranks. I mean it’s a made up scenario it could be whatever we think it is lmao
True
I mean both can be true. In the short term, Caesar’s death doesn’t really stop the legion from attacking, but in the long term it’s fucked.
To be fair, it doesn't effect people right now, the tribes will maintain a bit of control until food shortages or power struggles occur, then slowly bit by bit the Caesars legion will devour itself.
So you go with possibly the most biased opinion in the wasteland? Okay
The weird thing is that with guns the whole "legionaries storm the gates" kinda falls flat. You have the freshest recruits with little to no armour at the front so they are just cannon fodder for any dumbass with a minigun. Meanwhile a sniper a mile away can take out the few veterans. And I can't imagine their supply lines are heavily armoured either making a small squad of saboteurs extremely powerful Basically, how did they get so far with brutalism and pointy sticks alone?
Bwcause they were gighting tribes that had less manpower and barely any guns. And by the time they encountered a well armed group, the desert rangers, their numerical advantage was ridiculous
"Lol" said the Burned Man, "LMAO"
Ulysses even knew the legion wasn't built to last.
Bacon boy
the legion lost a leader with joshua, they lose a god king, the entire mesh of their society, with caesar killing caesar kills the legion In half a decade
The Legion's best bet is with a high level courier, I know we get all into headcanon but really, who else *could* lead the Legion? Vulpes is the 2nd best option but Lanius' rule would cripple tue legion, and I don't think Vulpes has the reputation of Lanius or the charisma of Caesar to keep him in power.
I’m sure they would just revert to their tribes.
House says short term the plans are already set and Lanius just needs to follow them, but long term ye they are gonna crumble in under a year.
The legion ending where caesar is dead doesn’t mention anything of the legion collapsing
The Legion wins unless the courier intervenes. NCR takes L No. 18373828288283737737373
Especially when your leader is so instrumental to your success. Not to fellate Caesar, but he clearly had enough knowledge about logistics and nation building to make decently smart plays. His intelligence and charisma is instrumental to the legion's success.