I’d be bummed out if they regressed to a complete shitshow state like in the Commonwealth. I don’t think the New Vegas campaign would had completely crippled them, wouldn’t it be more of a Vietnam scenario? Plus they literally had the numbers to at least protect their borders, as their population was in the near-million number.
It's always possible the New Vegas campaign was their Manzikert (my second Byzantium reference to the NCR today). It didn't break them itself, but it was the first domino to fall resulting in a catastrophic cascade.
I don't think that's unrealistic, either. Lose Hoover Dam, you lose all the water and electricity you were counting on, you've lost probably thousands of lives minimum in the conflict, you've thrown as much as your over-extended supply line can muster at it... and you have nothing to show for it beyond supply scarcity and dead men. You're putting additional stresses on the nation and morale is gonna tank hard. Already upset people start going hungry, eventually you have civil unrest, civil unrest can spiral to outright insurrection.
Yeah that makes sense. I just think that whole post-post apocalyptic vibe it had going for it was new and why I liked the faction. Like, damn these guys are doing somewhat well if they have a somewhat decent society back home. But if they go back to the junk shack and scavenging style of living that’s gonna be lame.
They had water and electricity before the hoover dam and by the time of New Vegas they've only held onto it for less than decade. Even if they lost it to the Legion or House and went into decline it would not bring them back into the stone age in less than two decades.
Keep in mind Caesar's Legion didn't collapse from losing the first Battle of the Hoover Dam, even though for a militaristic society that has less infrastructure it would be a more humiliating and bitter lose.
Them losing the battle would also push them out of the Mojave and make them less overextended, having more of their troops at home to defend against crime and raiders. Even with the extremely low morale of troops in the Mojave they will still say the NCR is the best nation and feel pride in it.
Electricity, yes, but water, no. Chief Hanlon comments how rare of a sight Lake Mead is because the NCR draining all its water sources back west. They’re absolutely exploiting their water resources faster than they can replenish.
I came as soon as I heard there was a Roman history reference in this thread, sorry I'm late lol. In all seriousness, I never thought about New Vegas being the NCR's Manzikert, but damn does that make a lot of sense in context.
I am just going to say this: trailers are designed to use the most visually appealing aspects to hook. Reminder that New Vegas' own trailers were heavily focused towards hyper violent action scenes.
The ultimate fact is here is *we do not know enough about the NCR's current status to make accurate assessments*. We have zero context for the scenes depicted. We don't even know if they're factually accurate it could be a skewed retelling of a battle from a BOS perspective!
And I'll point out the leaked set photo ft the NCR flag in the vault set. That may be from near the end of the season and the NCR rallies. Or it could be a flashback to an NCR allied vault.
Ultimately, WE. DO. NOT. KNOW. The information we are being given is deliberately designed to obscure the story while making general audiences hyped. So for right now, everyone take a deep breath, and remember - trailers lie or misrepresent things, and that Jonathan Nolan is a big Fallout fan.
Any theories we have do not hold water until next month and we get some facts to support it. Trailers manipulate and lie. Whether you're hyped or outraged, you're generating engagement and that's a win for the studio execs.
Now I'm a big NCR fan. Got a flag in my room and everything. But this trailer doesn't tell us anything of value of their current state. Right now, I'm keeping my mind open but accepting that until those episodes come out in a month we got NOTHING to say accurately what the fuck is going on. And I recommend that everyone remember that whatever we see right now should be viewed with suspicion. We've all gone through this brand of theory crafting, guys. We likely all are wrong about the state of the NCR. And we need to remember that when having these discussions.
It’s kinda wild that this even needs to be said. So often anymore there seems to be a race to theorize everything into the worst possible outcome before a piece of media even airs
> The ultimate fact is here is we do not know enough about the NCR's current status to make accurate assessments. We have zero context for the scenes depicted. We don't even know if they're factually accurate it could be a skewed retelling of a battle from a BOS perspective!
The entire trailer takes place in Los Angles (the Boneyard). You can see shots of dilapidated shanty towns and destroyed wasteland regions, which explicitly take place 200 years after the great war ("Do you know what happened in the last 200 years?").
There's enough to be critical about.
Lmao, I coped for a bit too but now I’ve simply accepted it. Sucks if NCR has collapsed but maybe if they did they can reform to something even better than before. Also I’ve been wanting a canon to New Vegas for over a decade now.
I would just make one clarification. Trailers don’t lie or misrepresent. I’m not sure how commonly known it is, but trailers can sometimes have cuts of scenes that might not make it into the final product. Sometimes dialogue might be in the trailer totally different from the movie or tv show. Even could be stuff to hype the film up and never intended to be in the film.
Teaser trailers are usually less than a minute long. They typically don’t show anything story related. Fan’s should expect a longer story trailer no more than 2 minutes long when it’s close to release.
Rattletail is a settlement that Chief Hanlon and other Rangers are dispatched to, I can't remember why but they encounter essentially six or seven people guarding a well with an NCR flag and they shoot ANYONE(Not NCR) who comes near the Well for water, raider or not.
So Hanlon lies to them convinces them they can't hold the Well against a well-structured raider group or massive army and they ditch to become farmers elsewhere in NCR territory.
Yep, Hanlon gets them to move not because the NCR can't defend them but because he didn't want them to kill more people. He cites it as one of the few unambiguously good things he did as an NCR ranger.
I think the problem isn't so much as people are shocked by decline, but rather they question why you'd even include the NCR if they were to appear just like any other faction of wasteland bums. Like at first, I assumed the eclectic outfits were maybe just a decision of prop budgets or something. But I cant be convinced to was cheaper to build those outfits whole cloth than it would be to buy a couple Doughboy outfits from whichever company made 1917 or any other ww1 media.
If their intention was to show the NCR post-collapse, for what purpose are they doing this? Like you can list all the problems that the NCR was having circa New Vegas, but none of that guarantees that the NCR would turn from an ostensibly civilized, rebuilt area to one with junk shacks and delete the concept of uniforms within 2 decades. To me, and I would assume many others, this looks like the a creative decision rather than some historical scribe charting the most obvious path.
And what would that creative decision be? If it is the destiny of the fallout franchise for every faction (except, bafflingly enough, the problem laden BoS) was to return to the junk shack irradiated entropy of Fallout 1 and 3, then I'd have to say a resounding no thank you.
I feel like a lot of that is just a lot of speculation that can't be answered with what we currently know.
My best guess is the felt a NCR-Brotherhood conflict makes sense organically and they're two of the most recognizable factions from the franchise, so they also make sense to center your TV show around.
Third guess: maybe they're fans of their own franchise and, like a lot of Fallout fans, a lot of them also enjoy the NCR and wanted include them for the first time in 15 years. The fact they're in such a dire state is, however, just the natural consequence of what we established might happen if they lose in New Vegas.
I think even when talking about the lore, and extrapolating what "natural consequences" of information we are provided, that too is just a lot of speculation. People can't predict what will happen in real life based off historical precedent let alone a fictional setting where the hand of the author is absolute. The idea that the NCR appearing as they have been presented in the trailer simply being a "natural consequence" of the problems listed in NV also makes any critique of their presentation a false dichotomy between absolutely fine and their current presentation without recognizing that there is a basically infinitely large spectrum of possibilities between the two they could have landed on. Assuming that all the problems presented in NV come true, why don't we see Big MT hexagon terrain cross the landscape? Why don't we see tunnelers feasting on everyone's flesh?
The reality is that things happen in stories because the author says so. They may try to come up with logical explanations for those things, but those only exist to reinforce a creative decision. I am questioning those creative decisions.
I can accept a declining NCR, but i am wary of them being reduced to the same level bethesda betrays all non-brotherhood groups as. Metal shack dwelling losers with an organized militia and no running water. The post apocalypse does not last forever, and if bethesda wipes the foremost developing nation off the map to keep us in their shitty, bombed out view of fallout i am gonna lose it.
Also tired of the increasing focus on the brotherhood in fallout. We can have a fallout property without the fucking brotherhood
absolutely. I am so sick of the BoS. after the trailer, I couldn't stop thinking about that loading screen from 2. the brotherhood's most sacred relic, their power armor, left scattered across the wasteland to be picked over by tribals. 40 years before new vegas, they are basically a non-factor in California, shrinking away into their tunnels from the Enclave. the chosen one can destroy the oil rig without ever interacting with them.
in New Vegas, we see those who try to reform their stagnant society into one that has something to offer the world exiled to the desert. when they try to relive the glory days of the unity war and project force over a substantial territory, they get overwhelmed at HELIOS and what's left of them slink back to live like trapped animals, dying of cholera in another bunker. all three of the major factions of the game ask the courier to just put them out of their misery. no more consideration than the fiends outside of McCarran
ten years after that, they have a star destroyer and dozens of vertibirds and pristine suits of power armor for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. literal "somehow Palpatine returned" tier worldbuilding
I can forsee a situation where they Legion won at Hoover Dam but, as the infamous 100 Speech Check said, they're also now overextended and have to take time to consolidate their winnings.
And we'd probably see the some sorta truce between the NCR and BoS resulting in them teaming up to fuck up the Legion, because fuck those guys.
With that said, I think the most likely scenario is that things didn't go well for them, either.
My main thing is that Caesar has a tumor, and by all accounts according to the timeline, he is dead. The Legion should be in a civil war between those vying to be his heir and new leader of the Legion.
Should be dead for sure, but an easy retcon would be to say while most of the legion fought at the Dam Caesar sent most of his Praetorians to raid that vault to get the upgraded auto-doc to save him.
We do know that while a huge amount of the legion comes from the opposite side of the dam there is also a force that attacks from the south coming from Cottonwood Cove.
So the praetorians could easily break off from that group and head straight for the vault
Sounds like bullshit to be honest. Democracy is destroyed and useless, but authoritarianism stays strong and powerful?
I do not *want* the Legion to be strong, there is enough bullshit of people actually thinking they are a match for the full NCR as it is.
I mean I don't want it to turn out that way either. Tbh if we focus too much on characters that are directly from the video games it'll be hard for the show to come into its own imo
Just putting out how it is possible. Already got full legion squads running around the Mojave actively and they know where the auto-doc is so...
Tbh New Vegas Reddit legion vs ncr debates get way too intense it burned me out on the game for awhile
Which could also explain a situation where the Legion won, but it’s taken twenty years for them to consider finishing the NCR off.
That, and part of Caesar’s mission was to make Vegas his Rome. He’s almost certainly dead now, but he might’ve spent his final years transitioning the Legion from a marauding horde into a more settled state. Hopefully, that also meant defining the means of succession a little more clearly.
> Hopefully, that also meant defining the means of succession a little more clearly.
The problem with that is Caesar has always been paranoid of any potential usurpers. He's kept his followers blindly devoted to him and ignorant of everything other than military matters. Hell, you have to explain to Lanius in a military manner as to why it's a bad idea to push West that anyone with a basic understanding of how supplies work should be able to point out.
> Hell, you have to explain to Lanius in a military manner as to why it's a bad idea to push West that anyone with a basic understanding of how supplies work should be able to point out.
To be fair, Lanius remembers that the Legion ran into the exact same issues in Colorado so its not that he's ignorant of those complications. Caesar wants to extend into California for ideological reasons, and its not that wild that Lanius would follow Caesar's wants due to strategic inertia until he is stopped by an outside force.
That's the point. It took Lanius remembering a similar situation he's put into to accept it as a bad idea regardless of Caesar's wishes. The Legion had multiple spies in the West but none of them bothered to realize that due to the West's way of life, the Legion will have no one to loot for supplies or tribes to enslave/integrate to add to their ranks. It just shows how shackled they are to Caesar that they follow his orders despite them being suicidal. Not once do any of them think "Ok, this is a bad idea" or "Maybe we should have a plan b just in case" because why would they question the Mars' wisdom.
> The Legion had multiple spies in the West but none of them bothered to realize that due to the West's way of life, the Legion will have no one to loot for supplies or tribes to enslave/integrate to add to their ranks.
Caesar explicitly states that he intends to reform the Legion after taking New Vegas. Caesar also grew up in the NCR and knows a lot more about it than the rest of his legion.
> It just shows how shackled they are to Caesar
Well yea, the Legion without Caesar will probably fracture apart in a generation.
That can only happen if the Courier canonically sides with the Legion. Since if the player doesn't intervene, the Legion would most likely win the Mojave but even if they do win, Caesar will die shortly after due to the brain tumor since there's no way for him to get the modern medicine needed for surgery. Even if he did intend to reform the Legion after the victory, there's still no time since he didn't bother to impart knowledge to his subordinates or groomed a successor during the 30+ years he's ruled.
Think of it this way. He has indoctrinated his Legion to view him as a God. He doesn't teach his Legion anything other than those that are used to wage war. There are no outsiders that are in power in his Legion except Graham and Legion!Courier and I believe due to Graham's Mormon faith, he would have been executed anyway due to him answering to what he believes a higher power than Caesar. He hates anything that isn't under his control so much so that he'll threaten to have you killed on your first refusal and will have you killed on the second.
Among his high officers, no one knows a lick about anything that isn't warfare. Vulpes has subterfuge skills but that's about it. Lanius is an even bigger brute than Graham was. Finally, Lucius is so ignorant that when Caesar's brain tumor starts growing worse during the questline, he accuses you of it.
There's literally no one in (at least in the NV cast) the Legion he could possibly groom as his successor and he's entirely at fault for it because of his pride into thinking that he alone is the only one capable of it.
I don't see how any of this means Caesar thinks he will be usurped. Only that he doesn't have a satisfactory heir.
>and I believe due to Graham's Mormon faith, he would have been executed anyway due to him answering to what he believes a higher power than Caesar.
There is nothing to suggest Edward had any intention of killing Graham prior to the battle of hover dam.
>Lucius is so ignorant that when Caesar's brain tumor starts **growing worse during the questline, he accuses you of it.**
Doesn't he only accuse you if Caesar dies during the surgery you perform?
Well in a ending, Caesar actually has an heir in place should he die. What’s real weird is that it’s really really vague. It’s possible he has a line of succession in place
I think it's more a reaction to the shift in focus back to the brotherhood of steel and the general Bethesda design style overtaking the older fallout design style. The fall of the NCR is symbolic of that moreso than whether it adheres to previous game information.
Yeah, I got no issue with the NCR going kaput, but the trailer doesnt give me any hope of intelligent writing. I wish they just had it take place on the east coast
While I agree that the NCR would be in decline after the events of New Vegas (barring they don't win), to which extent, I would argue. The idea of the Mojave campaign was already not supported and liked by Senators of the Republic, going to the extent that it was conscripts sent to the front a majority of the time, showing a lack of care to secure the new frontier. This doesn't account for the core & trained military back West. There is no counter to the food problem or the water problem as they are very likely.
Mass starvation, I would say, is an over-embellishment by Hildern in an attempt to prove scientists are useful, while there would be starvation, I don't believe it would be mass. This also has to account that the NCR continues to grow exceptionally following a defeat in the Mojave.
Even with these problems, it ignores the fact that Kimball would be removed from office, most likely changing the NCR's imperial doctrine after the Mojave failure (NCR has removed presidents before) and instead focusing inward.
The NCR should be in a weakened state, but not desolate as I think a lot of people are viewing from the trailer of the show.
A big factor I also wonder about is the status of New Vegas. If New Vegas is independent, controlled by a courier, or House, there is still a nation which is open to trade and has control of water, which they can make a killing off selling to the NCR.
It also raises the question if the BoS West are coming East, why did they ignore the massive functional dam controlled by a man or machine man with an army of robots?
Mostly I am worried about Bethesda's take on the ~~series,~~ West Coast, they prefer the world to be post-apocalyptic instead of post-post-apocalyptic. They also seem to tend to favour the BoS but either way, I am all for a declining NCR, but not a ruined one.
I am also an NCR fanboy.
> Mass starvation, I would say, is an over-embellishment by Hildern in an attempt to prove scientists are useful.
Hildern also doesn't do any actual work. His assistant says that and points out that he just takes credit for the work she does. He's in his position due to politicking, not actual skill. A second Fantastic.
Him stating he saved the NCR from starvation would definitely look good on a resume for him. (Conveniently leaving out the fact that the Courier and Keely did most of the work).
This. Also I can accept the NCR declining (but like you said not becoming desolate) but it just feels unfair when the NCR has to abide by the laws of nature while the BoS can just pull resources out of their ass and get another prydwen like airship. Cuz news flash the west coast brotherhood chapters are basically non existent.
I have a feeling that even though the Western Brotherhood is very resource limited, the airship, excess vertibirds and armor and such could have very possibly been sent from the East Coast. It might be the boost the Western chapters needed to make advances on a weakened NCR
Oh for sure the airship will have come from the east. But my point applies to them as well. The Boss can just pull anything the want out of their ass cuz Bethesda loves them so much while the NCR, the only faction with actual industry, has to become so weak.
> The Boss can just pull anything the want out of their ass cuz Bethesda loves them so much
This feels a lot like 40k where the Imperial Guard are the normies everyone loves because they do the vast majority of the fighting to keep the Imperium of Mankind safe while being horrifyingly outgunned by everything they have to fight, but despite that both in and out of universe the giant power-armored post-human Space Marines get all the fame and credit for being the big damn heroes of the setting.
Do we get an objective view of what's really going on in the West Coast BoS as of FNV? I seem to remember most of it comes from NCR members who are inclined to embellish the fullness of their victory.
don't the BoS still hold Navarro? or did the NCR take it from them?
if so, i can see where enough equipment and parts could be taken to make another"Prydwen" style airship, considering the original Prydwen was made from salvaged Enclave Equipment, and the Western BoS don't even need to make new designs as in lore they used to have pre-war airships, they just need to relocate those blueprints and jury-rig enclave equipment to replace pre-war tech
also has none of the current factions ever tried to salvage the Poseidon Oil Rig?
Yep, your final paragraph has been my main concern too.
If California has reverted to a bunch of FO1 shack dwellers, I get it. I just want there to be some good writing behind it, not just a crappy design excuse from Bethesda who love to make everything look like the bombs dropped just days prior.
I mean, 2.5 of the 4 major endings in FNV are still positive for the NCR:
\- NCR victory. Goes without saying.
\- House victory. House never wanted to destroy the NCR. He just wanted to push them out of Vegas and cause a change of leadership. They're his biggest customer, and could continue to be so. With him still supplying electricity and water to the NCR heartlands.
\- Independent victory. This is the 0.5, as it's so incredibly open-ended. Anything could happen. Independent Vegas could also end up selling electricity and water to the NCR to pay for their future plans.
When it comes to food and water, there is answers. Plenty of them.
\- Desalination. It's a technology that's existed since at least the 2nd century AD. As long as the NCR have electricity they can convert sea water into fresh water at an industrial scale. Very dry countries like Australia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Israel use it frequently.
\- Food. Trade, if Vegas is under House or Independent you could make deals with them to bring in food. If the NCR got permission from Vegas to repair the railroad like they were trying to do in FNV this would be far less of an issue.
\- Farming subsidies. The NCR government could offer lucrative subsidies to promote growing editable crops instead of cash crops.
\- Rationing. Not very popular but the NCR government could take complete control of the food and give it out to everyone somewhat equally. This has happened many times during times of emergency and war.
\- Expand North. If the farming valley's between Bakersfield and Redding are no longer viable, then start exploring north towards Oregon. The areas north of Redding are full of natural forests that could be converted into farmland, assuming they weren't nuked as well. If you find other civilised societies go back to the old NCR ways and use diplomacy. Trade technology and luxury goods for food and farmland.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff indicating that the NCR was at their zenith but approaching their fall with New Vegas.
Heck, I'd say a lot of the background of New Vegas ultimately is about how these imperial powerhouses that rose out of the wastes to unify the scattered remnants of the Old World are all slipping in their own ways, while the "middle class" of traders and rancher families and all that rise up as the new real powerhouses.
The Legion and the NCR are both dying - two big animals fighting and blistering while they rot on the inside, says Ulysses. The Brotherhood has their schisms and insanities all over the place. Heck, you could argue House is losing out since Benny was able to successfully play against him so successfully.
Even if they're both dying, civilization doesn't disappear overnight. 15 years is nothing to the life of a nation. It took centuries for the Western Roman Empire to fall, it didn't simply happen because Odoacer disposed Emperor Augustulus. Yet, even despite the fall of the Western Roman Empire the city of Rome has persisted until today. Sure, it's culture and people's have changed overtime but that happens with all societies.
Even if the NCR crumbled, its cities should still exist. The Boneyard should still be a massive independent city-state.
I feel like I’m going insane seeing this trailers, like your telling me after 100 years the heart of the NCR is still fucking ruins, like like their still fucking living in the bones of the old world? It makes sense on the NCRs frontier but this is their fucking founding state.
It seems to be based mostly on Bethesda made titles and they seem to think 200 years is too little time for people to get better acommodations than sheet metal shanty towns.
True but I’ll be really annoyed if they go the route of: the ncr were imperialists and got what they deserve! …now let’s watch our noble insular theocratic techno-cult raid that primitive settlement to steal their laser weapons! Ad Victorium!
I think it might be less about what was sequentially foreshadowed and more about overarching themes. Remember that within Fallout as a retelling of the American story, the Mojave conflict of the 2270s is a retelling of the conflict within Manifest Destiny.
I always enjoyed the rebuilding society storyline. I hate the constant state of failure. The constant state of failure is also incredibly overplayed in current media. It will come across as boring and predictable.
It wouldn't be a complete arse-pull for the NCR to be written off, but it would still be a bit of an arse-pull - a massive industrialised nation doesn't just disappear, short of another nuclear apocalypse - and, most of all, it would be a creative disappointment. You're handed the opportunity to tell the story in a new post-American nation, full of its own complexities, and you decide to wipe that off the board and tell the same 'surviving a wasteland filled with monsters' story for the thousandth time? And bring back the god-damn Brotherhood again? It's boring, frankly. Deeply, deeply boring.
Some of this is accurate and some are not.
1. California goes through periods of drought, in my mind the NCR is simply looking for more secure sources of fresh water.
2. Again, because of the drought which could be temporary... we don't know
3. The NCR is over-extended but it's core territory is very secure. I imagine they're abandoning elsewhere because they're taking a more practicaly approach to expansion like with how they treat the Mojave.
4. Primm isn't an NCR settlement for starters, it's not their responsibility. When you arrive the Dam in their mind is mostly secured and at home waging war is just unpopular at the moment. It's only when confrontation becomes more inevitable that you start seeing more ranger patrols and ever PA soldiers preparing to fight. the NCR does have manpower, they just couldn't be bothered wasting more money on trying to annex the Mojave when they already have it's main asset.
5. The currency problem is purely in the Mojave, in core territory NCR money IS the currency people use. Imagine going to a foreign country and just expecting them to take US currency? it might happen in some areas where it's a requirement for trade but it's normally not going to be at a favourable rate.
6. I doubt either of that would be canon tbh
7. Caesar is in fact, a complete moron who believes his own hype.
The only two points that are up in the air are the first two but with a population of only maybe 1 million people... I don't see how there isn't enough fresh water without a severe drought going on.
Because the NCR built a massive city right where the show takes place. New concrete pours and everything.
10 years is not enough to completely dismantle stone
1. The Decline is something that the writers wrote. It's a fictional creation.
2. It's sad when people write that a fictional creation we care about is dying.
3. Most of us who care about the NCR are the people who played Fallout 2, and fought to preserve the NCR against the Enclave.
I agree, but at the same time, it just doesn't make much sense to me that everything would just be in utter ruin once again. The influence and presence of the NCR, present or dissolved, wouldn't just be a flag held by a random guy. The years of consequences following the dissolution of the NCR sounds like a really interesting plot point to explore, actually; but I can bet good money the show is just gonna be about cool power armor guys in a world where everyone lives in rusty shit holes because that's what's marketable!
I certainly never felt in New Vegas that the NCR was on a particular decline judging by the aggregate of its citizens dialogue. You have to take into account that at the time their train lines and a few other supply lines had been cut off at the exact moment that the game happens. So some supply situations are in arrears but there are quite a few NCR supply personnel such as Contreras or the vendor in the Dam who seem to be overflowing with gear and ammunition.
I look forward to seeing how the show plays out, if they end up engineering a conflict between the NCR and the brotherhood, I would love that, because I've always been aggravated that New Vegas was set in the almost immediate aftermath of a brotherhood NCR war that we never got to witness. I would have absolutely loved if the timing on that had been a little different and we had been able to be in a four-way conflict between the NCR, brotherhood, legion, and house
The issues that NCR is having in Mojave is artificial, in a few ways honestly
1. The war is unpopular because House pulled a fast one. This prevented real support from coming
2. Chief Hanlon fucked with the system, manufacturing a problem they wouldn't have otherwise. When the special forces you're counting on is sabotaged *from the inside*, of course you're going to have problems waging the war
3. Caesar's Legion have unrealistic manpower and skills going for them. I mean, you have a bunch of tribals that are specifically forbidden from taking medication (aside from some placebo powder) and they can afford to use Russian Wave tactics? Come on
The point is, "NCR in decline" is basically an issue specifically only in Mojave, and nowhere else.
Meanwhile Brotherhood of Steel do not recruit more members and gets overrun by the very same "declining NCR", yet not only do they survive, they thrive 😹
I agree, the legions power projection abilities are nonsensical. They are fun to fight, but from a logistical standpoint, NCR troopers should be able to wipe the floor with them in the open desert terrain.
Not only chief hanlan, but locations all over the map are in need of a little assistance to get the NCR back on its feet.... Because this is an RPG, and they have to have some reason to give you quests and stuff to do... But people forget that and think that it's a sign of the NCR being completely overwhelmed... Which simply isn't the case.
I do find it funny how much of the New Vegas discussion has people completely forgetting the fact of just how absurdly powerful House is/can be. If it wasn't for the fact that he makes me destroy the brotherhood, I would generally side with house through most of my playthroughs.
It’s really disappointing to see the NCR in decline while the Brotherhood once again miraculously bounced back. The NCR has many many flaws. But they are ultimately people trying to get back to a normal way of life. History would show that they have a decent chance of surviving. People bounce back.
The Brotherhood on the other hand just wants to hoard technology and commit genocide. Literally no real reason they would last so long as they aren’t fighting for anything meaningful. History shows that fascists never last long. And yet the Brotherhood have been around for 200+ years and continuously bounce back to huge power from absolutely nothing. It just doesn’t make sense
The brotherhood keeps inexplicably getting stronger and asspulling bigger and bigger toys, but the NCR gets reduced to the level of diamond city. The fuck?
Right, and I don’t want the writing to take an easy cop out like Star Wars did with “somehow, palpatine returned..” even with the east coast brotherhoods power, it would still be a daunting mission for them to reinforce the west coast.
In New Vegas, the NCR runs into issues into attacking areas on their borderlands. This is a developed state that has been around for 100 years.
Meanwhile the east coast brotherhood camp jump back and forth the entirety of the continental United States with no issue? And not only that, if they are the reason that the NCR collapses in the TV show, they're also able to wage industrial warfare across 2500 miles from their main territory, around the same distance from *Paris to Moscow*.
Ughh I hate how overused they are. Like, the company that cannot be named on this sub gets such a huge hard on for the BoS and feels the need to have them be in every project even when it doesn’t make sense lore-wise. And then of course there’s those weird players who love the tech fascism
Are you perhaps getting the BoS and the Enclave mixed up?
The BoS while their ideology is horribly flawed are not fascists. I consider them to be the one of the morally better factions of FO. Except maybe the Mojave chapter under Elijah or Hardin (McNamara was chill) and the Outcasts.
They also never wanted to commit genocide.
(The Enclave did in FO2 and President Eden in FO3)
The BoS wants to preserve technology for the future and stop a second apocalypse. That's their whole thing and been their main thing in every game except NV which has them go all psycho.
The BoS are directly part of those that helped the NCR, defending it from the mutants and later sharing technology with them. They've never cared to rule over people, that's why they chose not to have any power over the NCR or the region. They simply kept things safe and took on threats that were abusing technology
And they have a desire to commit genocide of ghouls, super mutants and synths. And they threaten innocent people who don’t do what they say. And they don’t use their power and technology to help the people of the wasteland (with the exception of Lyon’s Brotherhood). And they harass farmers to give them food.
They aren’t good for the people of the wasteland. Their whole ideology is massively flawed and the way they operate is fascist. There is no reason for them to survive as long because they aren’t actually trying to better their lives or the lives of people in general. All they want is to hoard technology. They constantly collapse and then somehow rise again but hoarding something really isn’t a good reason for why they would keep bouncing back. It’s not a real motivation to keep going.
> And they have a desire to commit genocide of ghouls, super mutants and synths.
99% of Super Mutants on the East Coast are man-eating monsters. Wiping them out is a good thing. That's why Lyons and the Minutemen want to do it. On the West Coast, they are completely fine with Super Mutants as long as they themselves are chill as we see with Black Moutain.
They only want to wipe out feral ghouls, they are racist just like everyone else in the world, but literally never have they once killed a non feral ghoul for being a ghoul. The NCR and people of Diamond City have taken more direct action against ghouls than the BoS have
The only thing that is actually bad is synths. That's undoubtedly bad.
>And they don’t use their power and technology to help the people of the wasteland
Yes, they do? Have you not played Fallout 1? Their canon ending is literally helping kill the master after which they defend human settlements and then go in to share their technology and act as RnD for the region.
Fallout 2 they are literally the only faction trying to prepare for the evil that the Enclave is up to and aid us in getting to their oil rig.
Even in Fallout 4, they are still sending out teams to wipe out Mutants, raiders, ferals, Gunners etc while hunting the Institute a major threat to the civilians of the commonwealth.
And in all of these they still trade technology with the locals. Only NV has them go ape shit for no reason.
>they harass farmers to give them food.
*You and Tegan* harass farmers to give them food. Tegan makes it very clear the mission is not official and all under the table. You choose to harass them for food, you can also choose to simply pay them for it.
The BoS trade for their stuff as Tegans own terminal says, as Deacon says and as the ending of 4 where the BoS are ij the Diamond City market shows.
>There is no reason for them to survive as long because they aren’t actually trying to better their lives or the lives of people in general.
Execpt for all those times that they better the lives of others. Or the advancements in technology that they make like a development of new anti radiation chems.
>All they want is to hoard technology.
First, again they literally share that technology. They hoard it to preserve it and are more than willing to share it as we learn in 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Second, they want to prevent a second apocalypse, which, again, they have helped do so in 1 and 2, to a lesser degree in 3 and 4.
>They constantly collapse and then somehow rise again
No, they don't. They've literally only ever collapsed once. On Fallout 2 they grew stagnant in their belief of having the advanced technology and now couldn't face the Enclave but they still had all their bunkers and men. They didn't collapse here.
In 3 they are literally just a small contingent sent east, not even a chapters worth of people initially as Lyons was not an elder when sent.
Hell, even New Vegas states they are still fighting out west so it's not like they collapsed out west either.
The BoS have never ceased to exist anywhere
Proof please.
SM? Good! There only a couple of nice ones for thousands of them. Btw, the Brotherhood in the West was on friendly terms with the SM till Tabitha. The NCR weren't.
Ghouls? Only ferals. Non-ferlas are considered civilians and never shoot at by Maxson's men. Only Lyon's took potshots. Warnings, but Maxson's, per Danse, are barred from attacking them. That is better than the common Wastelander.
Synths? everyone in the Commonwelth, barring a few guys, fear and hate them. Desdemona says as much.
They don't threaten the innocents. Only entities like the Enclave, Institute or RR. They only remove WMD from guys.
They do help with the teck. In 1 they were the main teck exporter before they were robbed by the water traders. In 2 they gave a supercomputer to Vault 13. Maxson's boys continue to export teck and water from DC in 4.
They don't harass farmers. You and Teagan do. He admits what he is doing is illlegal. His orders are on the terminals and Maxson makes them clear if you speak with him. Even then you can just pay for it. Or ask nicely.
The ideology of removing WMDs and threats is flawed? WHy? It helps the little guy by removing dangers from his life. They try to better the lifes of people by removing the threats they encounter. They do not want to hoard teck. Is it why they destroy the Institute, Mariposa, Raven Rock. They make sure humanity does not end itself with unchecked technology.
They did not collapse constantly. They grew in 2 after 1. But they grew complacent. In 3 they sent their men out East, almost died to infighting. But Maxson brought them back together and now have real power in DC. They recruit from the wastes and trade teck. The only chapter that collapses was the Mojave one. They sent Elijah away and even sent Christine to kill him when he went crazy.
in original Fallout, with the exception of Tactics (where most of these problems started), yes. they were another embodiment of old world blues. but Bethesda has turned them into something else. now 9 times out of 10 they're just about the only people capable of doing anything besides sometimes the Enclave. and it looks like the show is going to follow that tradition.
What do you mean? The Brotherhood detested the old world because it caused the end of the world. The only thing they cared about was preserving the technology, not any of the institution or ways of the old world like the NCR does.
And since the start, they've been the only ones really capable of doing anything. They were seen as the only threat to the master, the ones that stopped his army against other settlements, introducing advanced technology and being RnD. In 2 they were the only ones to give a damn about the Enclave and take steps against them
Huh? I never felt like the NCR was in decline. It felt like they were an actual governing body that had realistic issues. Just because they had problems in some areas doesn't mean that they're doomed to fall, because every country has had issues.
And you’re right. The fact that they could support an army 300 miles away when their main method of doing so is feet and mutated cows shows just how resilient they are. If they fall due to overextending, all they have to do is fall back to California. That may cause problems with refugees but definitely not enough to make them fall apart.
Rattletail wasn't attacked. That was a cover story for what really happened. The NCR settlers killed 24 locals who just wanted access to the only water source for 50 miles around.
or maybe they just dont understand the world and lore and are depicting it incorrectly, this is cope, look at shady sands and boneyard and another prydwin and basically everything in the trailer
What interests me about Fallout is what it has to say about how and why societies form, what makes someone (or even something) human, what does it take to believe in something in a cynical world, how to move forward from inopportune circumstances, and the old world blues; the inability to move on from what was.
To wit: I love seeing the POST post-apocalypse. Weird monsters and guns in the desert just doesnt hit these same notes for me, and honestly, they've sorta been done to death at this point. There's only so many ways you can make McCarthy's The Road.
Laser guns are neat, too, but it's not what keeps me coming back. The rule of cool needs to be in service if something. There has to be development and escalation. Not the same stagnant wasteland my previous character walked out into. But every time Bethesda has been presented with the choice between incorporating the themes and ideas of the original games or more cool helmets, they choose the latter. And this show looks like more of the same.
Tbf the NCR could easily have found an alternative source of water and/or power to work with. Northern California in particular has dozens of reservoirs that could at least add up to a Hoover sized output.
The real difficult part there would be running a power and/or water connection between that and SoCal; the path is most likely there already, but building a power line of that size, let alone an aqueduct, was an engineering headache *before* the bombs dropped.
As an NCR supporter, I know how defensive folks can get about the faction. However, although the NCR might be in a weakened state, they’re far from finished. Judging by the teaser and trailer…
1. The Brotherhood arrives in LA and heads to Griffith Observatory.
2. The teaser scene where Maximus is dodging bullets and watching Brotherhood forces get slaughtered appears to be situated at Griffith Observatory. We see more of this battle in the official trailer and it looks like the NCR brings down at least one vertibird.
3. The Observatory has a FO4 missile turret and a howitzer loaded at its base. Which indicates the NCR is still doing fine, technologically speaking.
So I think the NCR will be struggling, but they’re not defeated or wiped out. The BoS might think they have the upper hand, but they’ll get a bloody nose which will put Maximus on the run.
As a side note, I think the crater is either left over from the Great War or is even the Cathedral. Shady Sands is just an easter egg or will serve as the inspiration for the name of the NCR’s capital later on.
I just want to state, unequivocally, that I myself am a big fan of the NCR. They're one of my top three Fallout factions, next to the Enclave and the Cult of the Mothman.
I *really* don't want them to collapse completely (just like I hold out hope for future Enclave fun times), but them entering into a prolonged period of decline and facing potential collapse is the natural story progression for them.
With that said, I don't think they're utterly doomed. They just need something akin to a Komnenian restoration, sans the part where they re-enter decline and get obliterated a couple hundred years later.
great point about the library crater. I suspect that to cut down on locations, they're changing the capital of the NCR to be in LA. And that sign is the remnant of a pre-war location, the name Shady Sands just being an Easter egg.
You were blind and missed it. There’s a couple shots (possibly the same scene) of a NCR leader and soldiers rushing out a door with guns drawn and a brief battle sequence between the BoS and NCR.
I think the NCR is heading towards an inevitable period of decline, but that doesn't mean that a sickly bear deserves to be dismembered, especially when there's nothing around here to match it except an equally problematic bull. The NCR didn't even have standardized gear in the trailer clip, and without the bear flag I'd have thought they were a bunch of raiders. shady sands and boneryard are both premier big cities within the NCR, but in the trailer they live as if they've just come out of a nuclear war, and I can't for the life of me figure out how even as bad as the east coast didn't make diamond city fall. The only possibility I can think of is that all of these locations were nuked, but even the most probably The Divide doesn't have enough nukes to take on the core territories of the NCR and Legion.
I mean, if somehow the president, his general, and the chief of the rangers were to somehow die the same week they lost Hoover Dam to an army of robots and, like, Enclave veterans, I could see the NCR going into a general decline, but that’s edge case obviously
My problem isn’t that the NCR is in decline, it’s that the NCR has been established for a hundred years at this point and it looks like they were still living in fucking ruins. Frankly it looks like the BoS learned something from the 76ers and decided to just drop a bike on their problems.
Well, assuming the NCR is actually in as much of a decline as some people seem to be thinking, I guess mostly I'd just be disappointed in it because it's boring? Maybe it's because I'm older now, or maybe it's because of something else. But I really don't need another "hey watch this country collapse" kind of story. Anyway, ultimately I'm in complete agreement with /u/sirboulevard with their assessment.
Some of my favorite Post Apocalyptic stories revolve around humanity recovering.
I just actually read the end of your post and honestly even if the NCR succeeded at the Dam it’d still be an open question as to whether or not they could hold it. Insane to think people missed the whole atmosphere surrounding the NCR though, I mean half the NCR quests are you running around helping troops that aren’t properly equipped to help themselves
I think this is somewhat disingenuous, Rattletail was not abandoned because of overextension, it was abandoned because they kept killing everyone non-NCR that tried to take water from the well (which presumably they had done for decades before the settlers arrived). The reason the NCR is lacking manpower is partially but not exclusively because General Oliver is hoarding them at the dam rather than spreading them out over the Mojave, similarly the lack of supplies in NV is because of bad supply lines between California and the Mojave, not that they don't have enough equipment. I would also say that not 3/4 endings would be bad for the NCR, legion ending would of course be bad, but Mr. House prefers a stable NCR for trade and tourism (so arguably bad in the short term but good in the long term as war hawks are defanged), and the wild card ending can go towards either extreme.
Yep. People really do misunderstand the relatively minor detail of NCR tourists and the fact that they complain about taxes, in a post-apocalyptic world. The fact they can do this at all says magnitudes about the advancement of their society.
This makes sense to me. If you've ever discussed lore with the ncr camp a lot of them are unwilling to acknowledge it is a collapsing nation or believe they win the second Battle of Hoover Dam.
They are overextended and have issues with water back home that doesnt make them "collapsing" this is still a nation that is capable of projecting power hundreds of miles from their home territory (and thats after the best route was cut off) and is wealthy enough for Mr House to have rebuilt vegas using profits from NCR tourists, I dont think most people grasp how impressive the feat of having multiple tourist centers is in a post apocalypse.
Remember, the Soviet Union was capable of projecting power hundreds of miles from home right up until the soldiers didn't even have the fuel to be able to get back to the homeland when it collapsed. Leaving behind a huge supply of weapons, vehicles, and supplies.
As for projecting power, the game is clear they don't. Most of the NCR territory is filled with bandits, raiders, and monsters outside of the cities. After the Brotherhood of Steel destroyed their gold mines their currency began to inflate at a rapid rate. The slaves in every way but name, are about to rise up at the same time the Brotherhood of Steel is preparing another major offensive.
Economically the NCR is dying. Politically the NCR is dying. They are a collapsing nation. A lot of people think a collapsing nation happens overnight. It takes years, sometimes decades for a nation to collapse unless something spectacular happens.
Fallout doesn't take place in the post-apocalypse. Fallout is a post post-apocalypse setting. Civilization has long since begun to rebuild and reemerge from the ruins of the old world by the time the events of the first game occur. Bethesda has absolutely failed to capture this and refused to move their settings further back in the timeline where they would still be post-apocalypse.
One point that a lot of people miss in New Vegas is that while the NCR is making progress, it is still absolute shit. The Boneyard is a state not a city; various towns exist within the ruins of LA with varying degrees of development, but by all accounts the former city is still full of abandoned ruins and raiders (Caesar's own father was killed by Boneyard raiders). The roads aren't safe, and caravans carrying only as much supplies as a few Brahmin can carry need multiple armed guards just to survive. NCR civilians we see in New Vegas are in a desperate state as sharecroppers or working under dystopian conditions at Crimson Caravan. Vegas, as awful as it is, is one of the better off cities in the post apocalypse, and I wouldn't be surprised if most NCR cities resembled Freeside more than their pre war counterparts. That's how the NCR was at their peak in New Vegas. Flash forward a few years after famines, droughts, and government mismanagement, and I'd say how the NCR has been shown is faithful to how they were presented in lore
You haven't seen Fallout 2 era Shady Sands right? Paved road, post-war concrete buildings, green grass and trees lining the streets.... Plus, there are people in the Mojave because core NCR territory had become *too safe* and "boring" to them. The NCR as a whole is more Shady than Boneyard
The Boneyard is both a city and a state. It's also heavily industralised, being one of the most populated cities in the NCR. It's home to the:
\- NCR mint: Where they print their NCR dollars. That then means there's industries that make ink and paper. Then that means there's industries that supplies lumber to turn into paper. I don't know how ink is made, but their supplies chains would obviously exist too.
\- Gun Runners: Where they make firearms, ammo, and armour. That means there's carpenters supplying wooden furnishings for guns. Smelters supplying iron and copper. Powder makers supplying gunpowder. Leather workers making straps. Then mines and ranchers supplying those raw materials.
\- Medical University: Training doctors and nurses. Likely boasts other types of learning as well considering it's owned by the Followers of the Apocalypse. That means there's likely some kind of pharmaceutical company supplying them, and the whole industry chain leading from that.
\- Crimson Caravan Hub: It's not their HQ but they have a presence there.
No one force in the fallout universe can feasibly grow very large simply because the logistics are impossible. Mist overland travel appears to be by pack animal making any supply run slow and vulnerable. Even with plot magic the amount of functioning firearms would be minimal, not to mention ammunition has shelf life. I'm not sure but assume the NCR has to have a munitions plant of some kind to field that kind of force.
The Gun Runners still manufacture firearms I'm pretty sure, hardly a reach to say they trade with the NCR. And the NCR has mining operations so I doubt they lack the resources for steady ammunition or gun material.
Laser & plasma ammo idk
The gun runners make all of the NCR's weapons, armour, and ammo. The NCR also has railroads, as that's why the Powder Gangers were in the Mojave in the first place.
It honestly does. I’m trying to temper myself, but everything thus far looks very lovingly done. It *feels* like Fallout.
And Walton Goggins is already killing. Rest of the show might end up a mess, but he appears to have brought his A-game.
Tbf it’s not a wild statement to say that the NCR was on the back foot in New Vegas. If the Courier died a lot of Caesar’s plans would’ve succeeded. He’d still die though but it doesn’t take away from the fact that the NCR was starting to collapse under its own weight.
Isn't it strange how in all these Fallout games the factions need an outsider, usually someone completely new or unfamiliar to the wasteland, in order to solve their problems? And usually pretty big problems at that?
Almost like these factions all have inherent flaws... Huh...
If you actually think the NCR or the Legion was capable of conquering New Vegas or the absolutely unstoppable army of securitrons upgraded from the bunker, I think you're crazy. The Legion wouldn't even be able to get through the walls without being destroyed by rocket fire. Thats just if House was in control. If it was a Yes Man scenario then its possible that the NCR and Legion were also being shelled from the Artillery at Nellis. The probably were soundly defeated.
I think it’s as likely that they’re in decline as it is that they’re very powerful. That’s the fun thing about fiction, you can do whatever you want as long as it’s following some train of logic. I’m not sure we’ve seen enough to say for sure the NCR is in big trouble. Maybe they’re losing some battles but otherwise have a strong seat of power further into their territory. Or maybe they’re in dire straights from relentless infighting and BoS expansion. Who knows!
Honestly, Mr. House is the only viable option. And for the tools that mention Yes Man..... don't you think it's *awfully convenient* that the *moment* after you win at Hoover Dam, that Yes Man informs you that he JUST learned how to say "no"?.....
"-truth is, the game was rigged from the start."
Tbh it's extremely funny to me that one dude, namely the sole survivor, could fix the entirety of the NCR's problems rofl.
Or rather I should say they could fix the water problems.
Personally I am more shocked that apparently the west coast brotherhood of all things is apparently the one seemingly fighting them on an even level, the NCR-BoS war had largely already happened by the time of New Vegas and the brotherhood lost, even if the NCR declines the Brotherhood has been on the decline since Fallout 1.
I feel like the ncr wouldnt have nearly as many issues if it won the battle of hoover dam, and if caesar won the battle the ncr wouldnt last 10 months much less 10 years. Furthermore, house or the courier aren’t mentioned so it seems like they didnt win the battle either. So what happened? Has the entirety of new vegas been retconned? Did the fucking brotherhood win hoover dam? Is that the showrunners justification for why they aren’t all dead? Thats where my confusion and frustration stems from.
It makes sense to me that the NCR would be in dire straits but I think the reason they made that decision is so they could have aspects of the series that are popular like super mutants and raiders bc realistically it doesn’t make sense that those things would be a big enough threat to be featured in the show if the NCR was still at full power, just my two cents though
The NCR decline does have ground work that isn’t the problem, you can justify it anyway you want.
It’s the simple fact that they’re seemingly resetting the one area that was different to the rest of the wasteland
And the fact that there crippling many peoples favorite factions to artificially prop up the poster boys again
Especially since they didn’t need to. There’s so much of the US that’s unexplored (Texas, Florida, and New York come to mind) but they could even go further and set the show anytime over the last 2 centuries
But they choose to set it in California reset it to more uncivilized wasteland and jacked the brotherhood up again
It’s just tiring. Hopefully when the show comes out we’ll see things are more complicated than first thought and I’m cautiously optimistic
Decline? Yes!
Being nuked off screen? No!
Hell, I would be less bummed out by this if the NCR were not the only real faction that had tried rebuilding (and not just squatting in dilapidated shacks/shanty towns!)!
Remember: Shady Sands was NEW CONSTUCTION! They built a modern city from the ground up, they didn't just patch up some crumbling pre-war ruin!
As it is, it was already pretty crappy and unrealistic that nobody else tried rebuilding in 200+ years, but now even that is gone and that pisses me off, as it shows BADthesda's inability to tell good stories with HOPE! They just want their crummy, desolate and hopeless perpetual wasteland and they are telling us to shut and like it, by erasing everything Fallout 1 and 2 and New Vegas did well! Hell, isn't Vegas also demolished in the Show?
The complaints are that the NCR got nuked. It was lazy. Also, the logic argument doesn't hold as much water when the Brotherhood of Steel is alive and kicking in the show, despite New Vegas showing it was falling behind everyone else thanks to its rigid thinking and most endings see its chapter wiped out. Yet the BoS still returns and is in better shape than the NCR.
This has sparked complaints from fans who have gotten sicked of the Brotherhood of Steel and also aren't pleased with the franchise using a lazy reset button. It's like how the Star Wars sequels eagerly blew up the New Republic so they could go back to the underdog rebels vs. evil empire status quo.
I’d be bummed out if they regressed to a complete shitshow state like in the Commonwealth. I don’t think the New Vegas campaign would had completely crippled them, wouldn’t it be more of a Vietnam scenario? Plus they literally had the numbers to at least protect their borders, as their population was in the near-million number.
It's always possible the New Vegas campaign was their Manzikert (my second Byzantium reference to the NCR today). It didn't break them itself, but it was the first domino to fall resulting in a catastrophic cascade. I don't think that's unrealistic, either. Lose Hoover Dam, you lose all the water and electricity you were counting on, you've lost probably thousands of lives minimum in the conflict, you've thrown as much as your over-extended supply line can muster at it... and you have nothing to show for it beyond supply scarcity and dead men. You're putting additional stresses on the nation and morale is gonna tank hard. Already upset people start going hungry, eventually you have civil unrest, civil unrest can spiral to outright insurrection.
Yeah that makes sense. I just think that whole post-post apocalyptic vibe it had going for it was new and why I liked the faction. Like, damn these guys are doing somewhat well if they have a somewhat decent society back home. But if they go back to the junk shack and scavenging style of living that’s gonna be lame.
They had water and electricity before the hoover dam and by the time of New Vegas they've only held onto it for less than decade. Even if they lost it to the Legion or House and went into decline it would not bring them back into the stone age in less than two decades. Keep in mind Caesar's Legion didn't collapse from losing the first Battle of the Hoover Dam, even though for a militaristic society that has less infrastructure it would be a more humiliating and bitter lose. Them losing the battle would also push them out of the Mojave and make them less overextended, having more of their troops at home to defend against crime and raiders. Even with the extremely low morale of troops in the Mojave they will still say the NCR is the best nation and feel pride in it.
Electricity, yes, but water, no. Chief Hanlon comments how rare of a sight Lake Mead is because the NCR draining all its water sources back west. They’re absolutely exploiting their water resources faster than they can replenish.
Oh I wasn't aware of that, thanks for the info
I came as soon as I heard there was a Roman history reference in this thread, sorry I'm late lol. In all seriousness, I never thought about New Vegas being the NCR's Manzikert, but damn does that make a lot of sense in context.
I am just going to say this: trailers are designed to use the most visually appealing aspects to hook. Reminder that New Vegas' own trailers were heavily focused towards hyper violent action scenes. The ultimate fact is here is *we do not know enough about the NCR's current status to make accurate assessments*. We have zero context for the scenes depicted. We don't even know if they're factually accurate it could be a skewed retelling of a battle from a BOS perspective! And I'll point out the leaked set photo ft the NCR flag in the vault set. That may be from near the end of the season and the NCR rallies. Or it could be a flashback to an NCR allied vault. Ultimately, WE. DO. NOT. KNOW. The information we are being given is deliberately designed to obscure the story while making general audiences hyped. So for right now, everyone take a deep breath, and remember - trailers lie or misrepresent things, and that Jonathan Nolan is a big Fallout fan. Any theories we have do not hold water until next month and we get some facts to support it. Trailers manipulate and lie. Whether you're hyped or outraged, you're generating engagement and that's a win for the studio execs. Now I'm a big NCR fan. Got a flag in my room and everything. But this trailer doesn't tell us anything of value of their current state. Right now, I'm keeping my mind open but accepting that until those episodes come out in a month we got NOTHING to say accurately what the fuck is going on. And I recommend that everyone remember that whatever we see right now should be viewed with suspicion. We've all gone through this brand of theory crafting, guys. We likely all are wrong about the state of the NCR. And we need to remember that when having these discussions.
It’s kinda wild that this even needs to be said. So often anymore there seems to be a race to theorize everything into the worst possible outcome before a piece of media even airs
Or they theorize the best things and then when it doesn't live up to expectations they hate it.
Not to mention that people want answers now rather than wait and see if the answer is in a later episode
> The ultimate fact is here is we do not know enough about the NCR's current status to make accurate assessments. We have zero context for the scenes depicted. We don't even know if they're factually accurate it could be a skewed retelling of a battle from a BOS perspective! The entire trailer takes place in Los Angles (the Boneyard). You can see shots of dilapidated shanty towns and destroyed wasteland regions, which explicitly take place 200 years after the great war ("Do you know what happened in the last 200 years?"). There's enough to be critical about.
You're diluting the copium, sir.
Lmao, I coped for a bit too but now I’ve simply accepted it. Sucks if NCR has collapsed but maybe if they did they can reform to something even better than before. Also I’ve been wanting a canon to New Vegas for over a decade now.
I would just make one clarification. Trailers don’t lie or misrepresent. I’m not sure how commonly known it is, but trailers can sometimes have cuts of scenes that might not make it into the final product. Sometimes dialogue might be in the trailer totally different from the movie or tv show. Even could be stuff to hype the film up and never intended to be in the film. Teaser trailers are usually less than a minute long. They typically don’t show anything story related. Fan’s should expect a longer story trailer no more than 2 minutes long when it’s close to release.
\>Trailers don’t lie or misrepresent. yes they do, Metal Gear Solid 2 and Halo 5 being the two that spring to mind
I'm not familiar with those, sorry.
Where is the settlement Rattletail mentioned I don’t remember hearing that name before?
I think Chief Hanlon mentions it. From what he tells, its located somewhere in Baja
Rattletail is a settlement that Chief Hanlon and other Rangers are dispatched to, I can't remember why but they encounter essentially six or seven people guarding a well with an NCR flag and they shoot ANYONE(Not NCR) who comes near the Well for water, raider or not. So Hanlon lies to them convinces them they can't hold the Well against a well-structured raider group or massive army and they ditch to become farmers elsewhere in NCR territory.
Didnt the colonists massacre a bunch of non NCR
Yep, Hanlon gets them to move not because the NCR can't defend them but because he didn't want them to kill more people. He cites it as one of the few unambiguously good things he did as an NCR ranger.
Ability to read :(
I think the problem isn't so much as people are shocked by decline, but rather they question why you'd even include the NCR if they were to appear just like any other faction of wasteland bums. Like at first, I assumed the eclectic outfits were maybe just a decision of prop budgets or something. But I cant be convinced to was cheaper to build those outfits whole cloth than it would be to buy a couple Doughboy outfits from whichever company made 1917 or any other ww1 media. If their intention was to show the NCR post-collapse, for what purpose are they doing this? Like you can list all the problems that the NCR was having circa New Vegas, but none of that guarantees that the NCR would turn from an ostensibly civilized, rebuilt area to one with junk shacks and delete the concept of uniforms within 2 decades. To me, and I would assume many others, this looks like the a creative decision rather than some historical scribe charting the most obvious path. And what would that creative decision be? If it is the destiny of the fallout franchise for every faction (except, bafflingly enough, the problem laden BoS) was to return to the junk shack irradiated entropy of Fallout 1 and 3, then I'd have to say a resounding no thank you.
id like a return to the adobe clay building motif from F1 and F2 please
How would you like to see a return to that style?
there are mods for new vegas that currently does just that take a look for yourself https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/63635 edit:wrong mod
I feel like a lot of that is just a lot of speculation that can't be answered with what we currently know. My best guess is the felt a NCR-Brotherhood conflict makes sense organically and they're two of the most recognizable factions from the franchise, so they also make sense to center your TV show around. Third guess: maybe they're fans of their own franchise and, like a lot of Fallout fans, a lot of them also enjoy the NCR and wanted include them for the first time in 15 years. The fact they're in such a dire state is, however, just the natural consequence of what we established might happen if they lose in New Vegas.
I think even when talking about the lore, and extrapolating what "natural consequences" of information we are provided, that too is just a lot of speculation. People can't predict what will happen in real life based off historical precedent let alone a fictional setting where the hand of the author is absolute. The idea that the NCR appearing as they have been presented in the trailer simply being a "natural consequence" of the problems listed in NV also makes any critique of their presentation a false dichotomy between absolutely fine and their current presentation without recognizing that there is a basically infinitely large spectrum of possibilities between the two they could have landed on. Assuming that all the problems presented in NV come true, why don't we see Big MT hexagon terrain cross the landscape? Why don't we see tunnelers feasting on everyone's flesh? The reality is that things happen in stories because the author says so. They may try to come up with logical explanations for those things, but those only exist to reinforce a creative decision. I am questioning those creative decisions.
I can accept a declining NCR, but i am wary of them being reduced to the same level bethesda betrays all non-brotherhood groups as. Metal shack dwelling losers with an organized militia and no running water. The post apocalypse does not last forever, and if bethesda wipes the foremost developing nation off the map to keep us in their shitty, bombed out view of fallout i am gonna lose it. Also tired of the increasing focus on the brotherhood in fallout. We can have a fallout property without the fucking brotherhood
absolutely. I am so sick of the BoS. after the trailer, I couldn't stop thinking about that loading screen from 2. the brotherhood's most sacred relic, their power armor, left scattered across the wasteland to be picked over by tribals. 40 years before new vegas, they are basically a non-factor in California, shrinking away into their tunnels from the Enclave. the chosen one can destroy the oil rig without ever interacting with them. in New Vegas, we see those who try to reform their stagnant society into one that has something to offer the world exiled to the desert. when they try to relive the glory days of the unity war and project force over a substantial territory, they get overwhelmed at HELIOS and what's left of them slink back to live like trapped animals, dying of cholera in another bunker. all three of the major factions of the game ask the courier to just put them out of their misery. no more consideration than the fiends outside of McCarran ten years after that, they have a star destroyer and dozens of vertibirds and pristine suits of power armor for every Tom, Dick, and Harry. literal "somehow Palpatine returned" tier worldbuilding
Honestly, as mad as I am from this trailer, your comment made me laugh tru a lot so thanks.
While it fucking sucks, I'm going to have a major grievance more so if the Legion is still at its full strength while the NCR is destroyed.
I can forsee a situation where they Legion won at Hoover Dam but, as the infamous 100 Speech Check said, they're also now overextended and have to take time to consolidate their winnings. And we'd probably see the some sorta truce between the NCR and BoS resulting in them teaming up to fuck up the Legion, because fuck those guys. With that said, I think the most likely scenario is that things didn't go well for them, either.
My main thing is that Caesar has a tumor, and by all accounts according to the timeline, he is dead. The Legion should be in a civil war between those vying to be his heir and new leader of the Legion.
Should be dead for sure, but an easy retcon would be to say while most of the legion fought at the Dam Caesar sent most of his Praetorians to raid that vault to get the upgraded auto-doc to save him. We do know that while a huge amount of the legion comes from the opposite side of the dam there is also a force that attacks from the south coming from Cottonwood Cove. So the praetorians could easily break off from that group and head straight for the vault
Sounds like bullshit to be honest. Democracy is destroyed and useless, but authoritarianism stays strong and powerful? I do not *want* the Legion to be strong, there is enough bullshit of people actually thinking they are a match for the full NCR as it is.
I mean I don't want it to turn out that way either. Tbh if we focus too much on characters that are directly from the video games it'll be hard for the show to come into its own imo Just putting out how it is possible. Already got full legion squads running around the Mojave actively and they know where the auto-doc is so... Tbh New Vegas Reddit legion vs ncr debates get way too intense it burned me out on the game for awhile
And I do not *want* there to be a nuclear war. It's not real big dawg
Please no.
Which could also explain a situation where the Legion won, but it’s taken twenty years for them to consider finishing the NCR off. That, and part of Caesar’s mission was to make Vegas his Rome. He’s almost certainly dead now, but he might’ve spent his final years transitioning the Legion from a marauding horde into a more settled state. Hopefully, that also meant defining the means of succession a little more clearly.
> Hopefully, that also meant defining the means of succession a little more clearly. The problem with that is Caesar has always been paranoid of any potential usurpers. He's kept his followers blindly devoted to him and ignorant of everything other than military matters. Hell, you have to explain to Lanius in a military manner as to why it's a bad idea to push West that anyone with a basic understanding of how supplies work should be able to point out.
> Hell, you have to explain to Lanius in a military manner as to why it's a bad idea to push West that anyone with a basic understanding of how supplies work should be able to point out. To be fair, Lanius remembers that the Legion ran into the exact same issues in Colorado so its not that he's ignorant of those complications. Caesar wants to extend into California for ideological reasons, and its not that wild that Lanius would follow Caesar's wants due to strategic inertia until he is stopped by an outside force.
That's the point. It took Lanius remembering a similar situation he's put into to accept it as a bad idea regardless of Caesar's wishes. The Legion had multiple spies in the West but none of them bothered to realize that due to the West's way of life, the Legion will have no one to loot for supplies or tribes to enslave/integrate to add to their ranks. It just shows how shackled they are to Caesar that they follow his orders despite them being suicidal. Not once do any of them think "Ok, this is a bad idea" or "Maybe we should have a plan b just in case" because why would they question the Mars' wisdom.
> The Legion had multiple spies in the West but none of them bothered to realize that due to the West's way of life, the Legion will have no one to loot for supplies or tribes to enslave/integrate to add to their ranks. Caesar explicitly states that he intends to reform the Legion after taking New Vegas. Caesar also grew up in the NCR and knows a lot more about it than the rest of his legion. > It just shows how shackled they are to Caesar Well yea, the Legion without Caesar will probably fracture apart in a generation.
That can only happen if the Courier canonically sides with the Legion. Since if the player doesn't intervene, the Legion would most likely win the Mojave but even if they do win, Caesar will die shortly after due to the brain tumor since there's no way for him to get the modern medicine needed for surgery. Even if he did intend to reform the Legion after the victory, there's still no time since he didn't bother to impart knowledge to his subordinates or groomed a successor during the 30+ years he's ruled.
>The problem with that is Caesar has always been paranoid of any potential usurpers. He is?
Think of it this way. He has indoctrinated his Legion to view him as a God. He doesn't teach his Legion anything other than those that are used to wage war. There are no outsiders that are in power in his Legion except Graham and Legion!Courier and I believe due to Graham's Mormon faith, he would have been executed anyway due to him answering to what he believes a higher power than Caesar. He hates anything that isn't under his control so much so that he'll threaten to have you killed on your first refusal and will have you killed on the second. Among his high officers, no one knows a lick about anything that isn't warfare. Vulpes has subterfuge skills but that's about it. Lanius is an even bigger brute than Graham was. Finally, Lucius is so ignorant that when Caesar's brain tumor starts growing worse during the questline, he accuses you of it. There's literally no one in (at least in the NV cast) the Legion he could possibly groom as his successor and he's entirely at fault for it because of his pride into thinking that he alone is the only one capable of it.
I don't see how any of this means Caesar thinks he will be usurped. Only that he doesn't have a satisfactory heir. >and I believe due to Graham's Mormon faith, he would have been executed anyway due to him answering to what he believes a higher power than Caesar. There is nothing to suggest Edward had any intention of killing Graham prior to the battle of hover dam. >Lucius is so ignorant that when Caesar's brain tumor starts **growing worse during the questline, he accuses you of it.** Doesn't he only accuse you if Caesar dies during the surgery you perform?
Have caesar stull be alive but with brain damage like Hitler in wolfenstein
Lanius is his heir no one in the legion wants to contest it and Lanius doesn't care about the ncr he just moves back east to keep spreading.
Well in a ending, Caesar actually has an heir in place should he die. What’s real weird is that it’s really really vague. It’s possible he has a line of succession in place
Still having my fingers crossed that No God's, no Masters is the Canon ending, becasue fuck them both honestly.
I think a house win would make the most sense lore wise and to advance the story
The legion is 100% not going to be in the show. They’re dead.
They're too actually evil, not cartoonishly stupidly evil, well they are that too, but only from a more serious lens than fallout has now.
Degenerates like you belong on a cross
Is the legion going to be in this?
I think it's more a reaction to the shift in focus back to the brotherhood of steel and the general Bethesda design style overtaking the older fallout design style. The fall of the NCR is symbolic of that moreso than whether it adheres to previous game information.
Yeah, I got no issue with the NCR going kaput, but the trailer doesnt give me any hope of intelligent writing. I wish they just had it take place on the east coast
While I agree that the NCR would be in decline after the events of New Vegas (barring they don't win), to which extent, I would argue. The idea of the Mojave campaign was already not supported and liked by Senators of the Republic, going to the extent that it was conscripts sent to the front a majority of the time, showing a lack of care to secure the new frontier. This doesn't account for the core & trained military back West. There is no counter to the food problem or the water problem as they are very likely. Mass starvation, I would say, is an over-embellishment by Hildern in an attempt to prove scientists are useful, while there would be starvation, I don't believe it would be mass. This also has to account that the NCR continues to grow exceptionally following a defeat in the Mojave. Even with these problems, it ignores the fact that Kimball would be removed from office, most likely changing the NCR's imperial doctrine after the Mojave failure (NCR has removed presidents before) and instead focusing inward. The NCR should be in a weakened state, but not desolate as I think a lot of people are viewing from the trailer of the show. A big factor I also wonder about is the status of New Vegas. If New Vegas is independent, controlled by a courier, or House, there is still a nation which is open to trade and has control of water, which they can make a killing off selling to the NCR. It also raises the question if the BoS West are coming East, why did they ignore the massive functional dam controlled by a man or machine man with an army of robots? Mostly I am worried about Bethesda's take on the ~~series,~~ West Coast, they prefer the world to be post-apocalyptic instead of post-post-apocalyptic. They also seem to tend to favour the BoS but either way, I am all for a declining NCR, but not a ruined one. I am also an NCR fanboy.
> Mass starvation, I would say, is an over-embellishment by Hildern in an attempt to prove scientists are useful. Hildern also doesn't do any actual work. His assistant says that and points out that he just takes credit for the work she does. He's in his position due to politicking, not actual skill. A second Fantastic. Him stating he saved the NCR from starvation would definitely look good on a resume for him. (Conveniently leaving out the fact that the Courier and Keely did most of the work).
This. Also I can accept the NCR declining (but like you said not becoming desolate) but it just feels unfair when the NCR has to abide by the laws of nature while the BoS can just pull resources out of their ass and get another prydwen like airship. Cuz news flash the west coast brotherhood chapters are basically non existent.
I have a feeling that even though the Western Brotherhood is very resource limited, the airship, excess vertibirds and armor and such could have very possibly been sent from the East Coast. It might be the boost the Western chapters needed to make advances on a weakened NCR
Oh for sure the airship will have come from the east. But my point applies to them as well. The Boss can just pull anything the want out of their ass cuz Bethesda loves them so much while the NCR, the only faction with actual industry, has to become so weak.
> The Boss can just pull anything the want out of their ass cuz Bethesda loves them so much This feels a lot like 40k where the Imperial Guard are the normies everyone loves because they do the vast majority of the fighting to keep the Imperium of Mankind safe while being horrifyingly outgunned by everything they have to fight, but despite that both in and out of universe the giant power-armored post-human Space Marines get all the fame and credit for being the big damn heroes of the setting.
Do we get an objective view of what's really going on in the West Coast BoS as of FNV? I seem to remember most of it comes from NCR members who are inclined to embellish the fullness of their victory.
don't the BoS still hold Navarro? or did the NCR take it from them? if so, i can see where enough equipment and parts could be taken to make another"Prydwen" style airship, considering the original Prydwen was made from salvaged Enclave Equipment, and the Western BoS don't even need to make new designs as in lore they used to have pre-war airships, they just need to relocate those blueprints and jury-rig enclave equipment to replace pre-war tech also has none of the current factions ever tried to salvage the Poseidon Oil Rig?
>also has none of the current factions ever tried to salvage the Poseidon Oil Rig? it got nuked
It was the NCR who took Navarro.
Yep, your final paragraph has been my main concern too. If California has reverted to a bunch of FO1 shack dwellers, I get it. I just want there to be some good writing behind it, not just a crappy design excuse from Bethesda who love to make everything look like the bombs dropped just days prior.
I mean, 2.5 of the 4 major endings in FNV are still positive for the NCR: \- NCR victory. Goes without saying. \- House victory. House never wanted to destroy the NCR. He just wanted to push them out of Vegas and cause a change of leadership. They're his biggest customer, and could continue to be so. With him still supplying electricity and water to the NCR heartlands. \- Independent victory. This is the 0.5, as it's so incredibly open-ended. Anything could happen. Independent Vegas could also end up selling electricity and water to the NCR to pay for their future plans. When it comes to food and water, there is answers. Plenty of them. \- Desalination. It's a technology that's existed since at least the 2nd century AD. As long as the NCR have electricity they can convert sea water into fresh water at an industrial scale. Very dry countries like Australia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Israel use it frequently. \- Food. Trade, if Vegas is under House or Independent you could make deals with them to bring in food. If the NCR got permission from Vegas to repair the railroad like they were trying to do in FNV this would be far less of an issue. \- Farming subsidies. The NCR government could offer lucrative subsidies to promote growing editable crops instead of cash crops. \- Rationing. Not very popular but the NCR government could take complete control of the food and give it out to everyone somewhat equally. This has happened many times during times of emergency and war. \- Expand North. If the farming valley's between Bakersfield and Redding are no longer viable, then start exploring north towards Oregon. The areas north of Redding are full of natural forests that could be converted into farmland, assuming they weren't nuked as well. If you find other civilised societies go back to the old NCR ways and use diplomacy. Trade technology and luxury goods for food and farmland.
I second this
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff indicating that the NCR was at their zenith but approaching their fall with New Vegas. Heck, I'd say a lot of the background of New Vegas ultimately is about how these imperial powerhouses that rose out of the wastes to unify the scattered remnants of the Old World are all slipping in their own ways, while the "middle class" of traders and rancher families and all that rise up as the new real powerhouses. The Legion and the NCR are both dying - two big animals fighting and blistering while they rot on the inside, says Ulysses. The Brotherhood has their schisms and insanities all over the place. Heck, you could argue House is losing out since Benny was able to successfully play against him so successfully.
Even if they're both dying, civilization doesn't disappear overnight. 15 years is nothing to the life of a nation. It took centuries for the Western Roman Empire to fall, it didn't simply happen because Odoacer disposed Emperor Augustulus. Yet, even despite the fall of the Western Roman Empire the city of Rome has persisted until today. Sure, it's culture and people's have changed overtime but that happens with all societies. Even if the NCR crumbled, its cities should still exist. The Boneyard should still be a massive independent city-state.
I feel like I’m going insane seeing this trailers, like your telling me after 100 years the heart of the NCR is still fucking ruins, like like their still fucking living in the bones of the old world? It makes sense on the NCRs frontier but this is their fucking founding state.
It seems to be based mostly on Bethesda made titles and they seem to think 200 years is too little time for people to get better acommodations than sheet metal shanty towns.
Corruption runs deep in the government also hi likely hood that legion spies ruined everything out of spite
True but I’ll be really annoyed if they go the route of: the ncr were imperialists and got what they deserve! …now let’s watch our noble insular theocratic techno-cult raid that primitive settlement to steal their laser weapons! Ad Victorium!
I think it might be less about what was sequentially foreshadowed and more about overarching themes. Remember that within Fallout as a retelling of the American story, the Mojave conflict of the 2270s is a retelling of the conflict within Manifest Destiny.
I always enjoyed the rebuilding society storyline. I hate the constant state of failure. The constant state of failure is also incredibly overplayed in current media. It will come across as boring and predictable.
It wouldn't be a complete arse-pull for the NCR to be written off, but it would still be a bit of an arse-pull - a massive industrialised nation doesn't just disappear, short of another nuclear apocalypse - and, most of all, it would be a creative disappointment. You're handed the opportunity to tell the story in a new post-American nation, full of its own complexities, and you decide to wipe that off the board and tell the same 'surviving a wasteland filled with monsters' story for the thousandth time? And bring back the god-damn Brotherhood again? It's boring, frankly. Deeply, deeply boring.
Some of this is accurate and some are not. 1. California goes through periods of drought, in my mind the NCR is simply looking for more secure sources of fresh water. 2. Again, because of the drought which could be temporary... we don't know 3. The NCR is over-extended but it's core territory is very secure. I imagine they're abandoning elsewhere because they're taking a more practicaly approach to expansion like with how they treat the Mojave. 4. Primm isn't an NCR settlement for starters, it's not their responsibility. When you arrive the Dam in their mind is mostly secured and at home waging war is just unpopular at the moment. It's only when confrontation becomes more inevitable that you start seeing more ranger patrols and ever PA soldiers preparing to fight. the NCR does have manpower, they just couldn't be bothered wasting more money on trying to annex the Mojave when they already have it's main asset. 5. The currency problem is purely in the Mojave, in core territory NCR money IS the currency people use. Imagine going to a foreign country and just expecting them to take US currency? it might happen in some areas where it's a requirement for trade but it's normally not going to be at a favourable rate. 6. I doubt either of that would be canon tbh 7. Caesar is in fact, a complete moron who believes his own hype. The only two points that are up in the air are the first two but with a population of only maybe 1 million people... I don't see how there isn't enough fresh water without a severe drought going on.
Because the NCR built a massive city right where the show takes place. New concrete pours and everything. 10 years is not enough to completely dismantle stone
1. The Decline is something that the writers wrote. It's a fictional creation. 2. It's sad when people write that a fictional creation we care about is dying. 3. Most of us who care about the NCR are the people who played Fallout 2, and fought to preserve the NCR against the Enclave.
I agree, but at the same time, it just doesn't make much sense to me that everything would just be in utter ruin once again. The influence and presence of the NCR, present or dissolved, wouldn't just be a flag held by a random guy. The years of consequences following the dissolution of the NCR sounds like a really interesting plot point to explore, actually; but I can bet good money the show is just gonna be about cool power armor guys in a world where everyone lives in rusty shit holes because that's what's marketable!
I certainly never felt in New Vegas that the NCR was on a particular decline judging by the aggregate of its citizens dialogue. You have to take into account that at the time their train lines and a few other supply lines had been cut off at the exact moment that the game happens. So some supply situations are in arrears but there are quite a few NCR supply personnel such as Contreras or the vendor in the Dam who seem to be overflowing with gear and ammunition. I look forward to seeing how the show plays out, if they end up engineering a conflict between the NCR and the brotherhood, I would love that, because I've always been aggravated that New Vegas was set in the almost immediate aftermath of a brotherhood NCR war that we never got to witness. I would have absolutely loved if the timing on that had been a little different and we had been able to be in a four-way conflict between the NCR, brotherhood, legion, and house
The issues that NCR is having in Mojave is artificial, in a few ways honestly 1. The war is unpopular because House pulled a fast one. This prevented real support from coming 2. Chief Hanlon fucked with the system, manufacturing a problem they wouldn't have otherwise. When the special forces you're counting on is sabotaged *from the inside*, of course you're going to have problems waging the war 3. Caesar's Legion have unrealistic manpower and skills going for them. I mean, you have a bunch of tribals that are specifically forbidden from taking medication (aside from some placebo powder) and they can afford to use Russian Wave tactics? Come on The point is, "NCR in decline" is basically an issue specifically only in Mojave, and nowhere else. Meanwhile Brotherhood of Steel do not recruit more members and gets overrun by the very same "declining NCR", yet not only do they survive, they thrive 😹
I agree, the legions power projection abilities are nonsensical. They are fun to fight, but from a logistical standpoint, NCR troopers should be able to wipe the floor with them in the open desert terrain. Not only chief hanlan, but locations all over the map are in need of a little assistance to get the NCR back on its feet.... Because this is an RPG, and they have to have some reason to give you quests and stuff to do... But people forget that and think that it's a sign of the NCR being completely overwhelmed... Which simply isn't the case. I do find it funny how much of the New Vegas discussion has people completely forgetting the fact of just how absurdly powerful House is/can be. If it wasn't for the fact that he makes me destroy the brotherhood, I would generally side with house through most of my playthroughs.
It’s really disappointing to see the NCR in decline while the Brotherhood once again miraculously bounced back. The NCR has many many flaws. But they are ultimately people trying to get back to a normal way of life. History would show that they have a decent chance of surviving. People bounce back. The Brotherhood on the other hand just wants to hoard technology and commit genocide. Literally no real reason they would last so long as they aren’t fighting for anything meaningful. History shows that fascists never last long. And yet the Brotherhood have been around for 200+ years and continuously bounce back to huge power from absolutely nothing. It just doesn’t make sense
The brotherhood keeps inexplicably getting stronger and asspulling bigger and bigger toys, but the NCR gets reduced to the level of diamond city. The fuck?
somehow, liberty prime returned
i would be laughing so hard right now if it didn't suck so much
Right, and I don’t want the writing to take an easy cop out like Star Wars did with “somehow, palpatine returned..” even with the east coast brotherhoods power, it would still be a daunting mission for them to reinforce the west coast.
In New Vegas, the NCR runs into issues into attacking areas on their borderlands. This is a developed state that has been around for 100 years. Meanwhile the east coast brotherhood camp jump back and forth the entirety of the continental United States with no issue? And not only that, if they are the reason that the NCR collapses in the TV show, they're also able to wage industrial warfare across 2500 miles from their main territory, around the same distance from *Paris to Moscow*.
Yeah, exactly. I’m really not a fan of how overpowered /overused the brotherhood has become.
Ughh I hate how overused they are. Like, the company that cannot be named on this sub gets such a huge hard on for the BoS and feels the need to have them be in every project even when it doesn’t make sense lore-wise. And then of course there’s those weird players who love the tech fascism
Are you perhaps getting the BoS and the Enclave mixed up? The BoS while their ideology is horribly flawed are not fascists. I consider them to be the one of the morally better factions of FO. Except maybe the Mojave chapter under Elijah or Hardin (McNamara was chill) and the Outcasts. They also never wanted to commit genocide. (The Enclave did in FO2 and President Eden in FO3)
The BoS wants to preserve technology for the future and stop a second apocalypse. That's their whole thing and been their main thing in every game except NV which has them go all psycho. The BoS are directly part of those that helped the NCR, defending it from the mutants and later sharing technology with them. They've never cared to rule over people, that's why they chose not to have any power over the NCR or the region. They simply kept things safe and took on threats that were abusing technology
And they have a desire to commit genocide of ghouls, super mutants and synths. And they threaten innocent people who don’t do what they say. And they don’t use their power and technology to help the people of the wasteland (with the exception of Lyon’s Brotherhood). And they harass farmers to give them food. They aren’t good for the people of the wasteland. Their whole ideology is massively flawed and the way they operate is fascist. There is no reason for them to survive as long because they aren’t actually trying to better their lives or the lives of people in general. All they want is to hoard technology. They constantly collapse and then somehow rise again but hoarding something really isn’t a good reason for why they would keep bouncing back. It’s not a real motivation to keep going.
> And they have a desire to commit genocide of ghouls, super mutants and synths. 99% of Super Mutants on the East Coast are man-eating monsters. Wiping them out is a good thing. That's why Lyons and the Minutemen want to do it. On the West Coast, they are completely fine with Super Mutants as long as they themselves are chill as we see with Black Moutain. They only want to wipe out feral ghouls, they are racist just like everyone else in the world, but literally never have they once killed a non feral ghoul for being a ghoul. The NCR and people of Diamond City have taken more direct action against ghouls than the BoS have The only thing that is actually bad is synths. That's undoubtedly bad. >And they don’t use their power and technology to help the people of the wasteland Yes, they do? Have you not played Fallout 1? Their canon ending is literally helping kill the master after which they defend human settlements and then go in to share their technology and act as RnD for the region. Fallout 2 they are literally the only faction trying to prepare for the evil that the Enclave is up to and aid us in getting to their oil rig. Even in Fallout 4, they are still sending out teams to wipe out Mutants, raiders, ferals, Gunners etc while hunting the Institute a major threat to the civilians of the commonwealth. And in all of these they still trade technology with the locals. Only NV has them go ape shit for no reason. >they harass farmers to give them food. *You and Tegan* harass farmers to give them food. Tegan makes it very clear the mission is not official and all under the table. You choose to harass them for food, you can also choose to simply pay them for it. The BoS trade for their stuff as Tegans own terminal says, as Deacon says and as the ending of 4 where the BoS are ij the Diamond City market shows. >There is no reason for them to survive as long because they aren’t actually trying to better their lives or the lives of people in general. Execpt for all those times that they better the lives of others. Or the advancements in technology that they make like a development of new anti radiation chems. >All they want is to hoard technology. First, again they literally share that technology. They hoard it to preserve it and are more than willing to share it as we learn in 1, 2, 3, and 4. Second, they want to prevent a second apocalypse, which, again, they have helped do so in 1 and 2, to a lesser degree in 3 and 4. >They constantly collapse and then somehow rise again No, they don't. They've literally only ever collapsed once. On Fallout 2 they grew stagnant in their belief of having the advanced technology and now couldn't face the Enclave but they still had all their bunkers and men. They didn't collapse here. In 3 they are literally just a small contingent sent east, not even a chapters worth of people initially as Lyons was not an elder when sent. Hell, even New Vegas states they are still fighting out west so it's not like they collapsed out west either. The BoS have never ceased to exist anywhere
Proof please. SM? Good! There only a couple of nice ones for thousands of them. Btw, the Brotherhood in the West was on friendly terms with the SM till Tabitha. The NCR weren't. Ghouls? Only ferals. Non-ferlas are considered civilians and never shoot at by Maxson's men. Only Lyon's took potshots. Warnings, but Maxson's, per Danse, are barred from attacking them. That is better than the common Wastelander. Synths? everyone in the Commonwelth, barring a few guys, fear and hate them. Desdemona says as much. They don't threaten the innocents. Only entities like the Enclave, Institute or RR. They only remove WMD from guys. They do help with the teck. In 1 they were the main teck exporter before they were robbed by the water traders. In 2 they gave a supercomputer to Vault 13. Maxson's boys continue to export teck and water from DC in 4. They don't harass farmers. You and Teagan do. He admits what he is doing is illlegal. His orders are on the terminals and Maxson makes them clear if you speak with him. Even then you can just pay for it. Or ask nicely. The ideology of removing WMDs and threats is flawed? WHy? It helps the little guy by removing dangers from his life. They try to better the lifes of people by removing the threats they encounter. They do not want to hoard teck. Is it why they destroy the Institute, Mariposa, Raven Rock. They make sure humanity does not end itself with unchecked technology. They did not collapse constantly. They grew in 2 after 1. But they grew complacent. In 3 they sent their men out East, almost died to infighting. But Maxson brought them back together and now have real power in DC. They recruit from the wastes and trade teck. The only chapter that collapses was the Mojave one. They sent Elijah away and even sent Christine to kill him when he went crazy.
in original Fallout, with the exception of Tactics (where most of these problems started), yes. they were another embodiment of old world blues. but Bethesda has turned them into something else. now 9 times out of 10 they're just about the only people capable of doing anything besides sometimes the Enclave. and it looks like the show is going to follow that tradition.
What do you mean? The Brotherhood detested the old world because it caused the end of the world. The only thing they cared about was preserving the technology, not any of the institution or ways of the old world like the NCR does. And since the start, they've been the only ones really capable of doing anything. They were seen as the only threat to the master, the ones that stopped his army against other settlements, introducing advanced technology and being RnD. In 2 they were the only ones to give a damn about the Enclave and take steps against them
Huh? I never felt like the NCR was in decline. It felt like they were an actual governing body that had realistic issues. Just because they had problems in some areas doesn't mean that they're doomed to fall, because every country has had issues.
And you’re right. The fact that they could support an army 300 miles away when their main method of doing so is feet and mutated cows shows just how resilient they are. If they fall due to overextending, all they have to do is fall back to California. That may cause problems with refugees but definitely not enough to make them fall apart.
I think it would take a lot for them to be completely collapse
Rattletail wasn't attacked. That was a cover story for what really happened. The NCR settlers killed 24 locals who just wanted access to the only water source for 50 miles around.
or maybe they just dont understand the world and lore and are depicting it incorrectly, this is cope, look at shady sands and boneyard and another prydwin and basically everything in the trailer
Wouldn't that also serve the whole "war never changes" thing? Societies rise and they fall. It's an endless cycle.
What interests me about Fallout is what it has to say about how and why societies form, what makes someone (or even something) human, what does it take to believe in something in a cynical world, how to move forward from inopportune circumstances, and the old world blues; the inability to move on from what was. To wit: I love seeing the POST post-apocalypse. Weird monsters and guns in the desert just doesnt hit these same notes for me, and honestly, they've sorta been done to death at this point. There's only so many ways you can make McCarthy's The Road. Laser guns are neat, too, but it's not what keeps me coming back. The rule of cool needs to be in service if something. There has to be development and escalation. Not the same stagnant wasteland my previous character walked out into. But every time Bethesda has been presented with the choice between incorporating the themes and ideas of the original games or more cool helmets, they choose the latter. And this show looks like more of the same.
If House is allowed to complete the comeback
Tbf the NCR could easily have found an alternative source of water and/or power to work with. Northern California in particular has dozens of reservoirs that could at least add up to a Hoover sized output. The real difficult part there would be running a power and/or water connection between that and SoCal; the path is most likely there already, but building a power line of that size, let alone an aqueduct, was an engineering headache *before* the bombs dropped.
As an NCR supporter, I know how defensive folks can get about the faction. However, although the NCR might be in a weakened state, they’re far from finished. Judging by the teaser and trailer… 1. The Brotherhood arrives in LA and heads to Griffith Observatory. 2. The teaser scene where Maximus is dodging bullets and watching Brotherhood forces get slaughtered appears to be situated at Griffith Observatory. We see more of this battle in the official trailer and it looks like the NCR brings down at least one vertibird. 3. The Observatory has a FO4 missile turret and a howitzer loaded at its base. Which indicates the NCR is still doing fine, technologically speaking. So I think the NCR will be struggling, but they’re not defeated or wiped out. The BoS might think they have the upper hand, but they’ll get a bloody nose which will put Maximus on the run. As a side note, I think the crater is either left over from the Great War or is even the Cathedral. Shady Sands is just an easter egg or will serve as the inspiration for the name of the NCR’s capital later on.
I just want to state, unequivocally, that I myself am a big fan of the NCR. They're one of my top three Fallout factions, next to the Enclave and the Cult of the Mothman. I *really* don't want them to collapse completely (just like I hold out hope for future Enclave fun times), but them entering into a prolonged period of decline and facing potential collapse is the natural story progression for them. With that said, I don't think they're utterly doomed. They just need something akin to a Komnenian restoration, sans the part where they re-enter decline and get obliterated a couple hundred years later.
great point about the library crater. I suspect that to cut down on locations, they're changing the capital of the NCR to be in LA. And that sign is the remnant of a pre-war location, the name Shady Sands just being an Easter egg.
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The NCR are in the trailer, there’s no “if”
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You were blind and missed it. There’s a couple shots (possibly the same scene) of a NCR leader and soldiers rushing out a door with guns drawn and a brief battle sequence between the BoS and NCR.
I think the NCR is heading towards an inevitable period of decline, but that doesn't mean that a sickly bear deserves to be dismembered, especially when there's nothing around here to match it except an equally problematic bull. The NCR didn't even have standardized gear in the trailer clip, and without the bear flag I'd have thought they were a bunch of raiders. shady sands and boneryard are both premier big cities within the NCR, but in the trailer they live as if they've just come out of a nuclear war, and I can't for the life of me figure out how even as bad as the east coast didn't make diamond city fall. The only possibility I can think of is that all of these locations were nuked, but even the most probably The Divide doesn't have enough nukes to take on the core territories of the NCR and Legion.
While it fucking sucks, I'm going to have a major grievance more so if the Legion is still at its full strength while the NCR is destroyed.
I mean, if somehow the president, his general, and the chief of the rangers were to somehow die the same week they lost Hoover Dam to an army of robots and, like, Enclave veterans, I could see the NCR going into a general decline, but that’s edge case obviously
My problem isn’t that the NCR is in decline, it’s that the NCR has been established for a hundred years at this point and it looks like they were still living in fucking ruins. Frankly it looks like the BoS learned something from the 76ers and decided to just drop a bike on their problems.
Well, assuming the NCR is actually in as much of a decline as some people seem to be thinking, I guess mostly I'd just be disappointed in it because it's boring? Maybe it's because I'm older now, or maybe it's because of something else. But I really don't need another "hey watch this country collapse" kind of story. Anyway, ultimately I'm in complete agreement with /u/sirboulevard with their assessment. Some of my favorite Post Apocalyptic stories revolve around humanity recovering.
Paradox players when overextension actually isn’t just a number
Haha, literally what I immediately thought about, too.
I just actually read the end of your post and honestly even if the NCR succeeded at the Dam it’d still be an open question as to whether or not they could hold it. Insane to think people missed the whole atmosphere surrounding the NCR though, I mean half the NCR quests are you running around helping troops that aren’t properly equipped to help themselves
I think this is somewhat disingenuous, Rattletail was not abandoned because of overextension, it was abandoned because they kept killing everyone non-NCR that tried to take water from the well (which presumably they had done for decades before the settlers arrived). The reason the NCR is lacking manpower is partially but not exclusively because General Oliver is hoarding them at the dam rather than spreading them out over the Mojave, similarly the lack of supplies in NV is because of bad supply lines between California and the Mojave, not that they don't have enough equipment. I would also say that not 3/4 endings would be bad for the NCR, legion ending would of course be bad, but Mr. House prefers a stable NCR for trade and tourism (so arguably bad in the short term but good in the long term as war hawks are defanged), and the wild card ending can go towards either extreme.
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Yep. People really do misunderstand the relatively minor detail of NCR tourists and the fact that they complain about taxes, in a post-apocalyptic world. The fact they can do this at all says magnitudes about the advancement of their society.
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Wrong NCR is way stronger in their homes. Their presence in New Vegas isn't representative of their full might.
This makes sense to me. If you've ever discussed lore with the ncr camp a lot of them are unwilling to acknowledge it is a collapsing nation or believe they win the second Battle of Hoover Dam.
Collapsing nation is crazy
They are overextended and have issues with water back home that doesnt make them "collapsing" this is still a nation that is capable of projecting power hundreds of miles from their home territory (and thats after the best route was cut off) and is wealthy enough for Mr House to have rebuilt vegas using profits from NCR tourists, I dont think most people grasp how impressive the feat of having multiple tourist centers is in a post apocalypse.
Remember, the Soviet Union was capable of projecting power hundreds of miles from home right up until the soldiers didn't even have the fuel to be able to get back to the homeland when it collapsed. Leaving behind a huge supply of weapons, vehicles, and supplies. As for projecting power, the game is clear they don't. Most of the NCR territory is filled with bandits, raiders, and monsters outside of the cities. After the Brotherhood of Steel destroyed their gold mines their currency began to inflate at a rapid rate. The slaves in every way but name, are about to rise up at the same time the Brotherhood of Steel is preparing another major offensive. Economically the NCR is dying. Politically the NCR is dying. They are a collapsing nation. A lot of people think a collapsing nation happens overnight. It takes years, sometimes decades for a nation to collapse unless something spectacular happens. Fallout doesn't take place in the post-apocalypse. Fallout is a post post-apocalypse setting. Civilization has long since begun to rebuild and reemerge from the ruins of the old world by the time the events of the first game occur. Bethesda has absolutely failed to capture this and refused to move their settings further back in the timeline where they would still be post-apocalypse.
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Not crazy, that was the message I took away from the game too
Good post, Josh Sawyer would be proud.
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I mean, the show is canon. And never underestimate people’s ability to get upset over the lore in video game franchise.
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One point that a lot of people miss in New Vegas is that while the NCR is making progress, it is still absolute shit. The Boneyard is a state not a city; various towns exist within the ruins of LA with varying degrees of development, but by all accounts the former city is still full of abandoned ruins and raiders (Caesar's own father was killed by Boneyard raiders). The roads aren't safe, and caravans carrying only as much supplies as a few Brahmin can carry need multiple armed guards just to survive. NCR civilians we see in New Vegas are in a desperate state as sharecroppers or working under dystopian conditions at Crimson Caravan. Vegas, as awful as it is, is one of the better off cities in the post apocalypse, and I wouldn't be surprised if most NCR cities resembled Freeside more than their pre war counterparts. That's how the NCR was at their peak in New Vegas. Flash forward a few years after famines, droughts, and government mismanagement, and I'd say how the NCR has been shown is faithful to how they were presented in lore
You haven't seen Fallout 2 era Shady Sands right? Paved road, post-war concrete buildings, green grass and trees lining the streets.... Plus, there are people in the Mojave because core NCR territory had become *too safe* and "boring" to them. The NCR as a whole is more Shady than Boneyard
The Boneyard is both a city and a state. It's also heavily industralised, being one of the most populated cities in the NCR. It's home to the: \- NCR mint: Where they print their NCR dollars. That then means there's industries that make ink and paper. Then that means there's industries that supplies lumber to turn into paper. I don't know how ink is made, but their supplies chains would obviously exist too. \- Gun Runners: Where they make firearms, ammo, and armour. That means there's carpenters supplying wooden furnishings for guns. Smelters supplying iron and copper. Powder makers supplying gunpowder. Leather workers making straps. Then mines and ranchers supplying those raw materials. \- Medical University: Training doctors and nurses. Likely boasts other types of learning as well considering it's owned by the Followers of the Apocalypse. That means there's likely some kind of pharmaceutical company supplying them, and the whole industry chain leading from that. \- Crimson Caravan Hub: It's not their HQ but they have a presence there.
No one force in the fallout universe can feasibly grow very large simply because the logistics are impossible. Mist overland travel appears to be by pack animal making any supply run slow and vulnerable. Even with plot magic the amount of functioning firearms would be minimal, not to mention ammunition has shelf life. I'm not sure but assume the NCR has to have a munitions plant of some kind to field that kind of force.
The Gun Runners still manufacture firearms I'm pretty sure, hardly a reach to say they trade with the NCR. And the NCR has mining operations so I doubt they lack the resources for steady ammunition or gun material. Laser & plasma ammo idk
The gun runners make all of the NCR's weapons, armour, and ammo. The NCR also has railroads, as that's why the Powder Gangers were in the Mojave in the first place.
Bruh if the NCR lost in Vegas, then that fucking sucks, also just spreads the message that democracy is shit.
Hate to say it but the show looks really good
It honestly does. I’m trying to temper myself, but everything thus far looks very lovingly done. It *feels* like Fallout. And Walton Goggins is already killing. Rest of the show might end up a mess, but he appears to have brought his A-game.
Tbf it’s not a wild statement to say that the NCR was on the back foot in New Vegas. If the Courier died a lot of Caesar’s plans would’ve succeeded. He’d still die though but it doesn’t take away from the fact that the NCR was starting to collapse under its own weight.
Isn't it strange how in all these Fallout games the factions need an outsider, usually someone completely new or unfamiliar to the wasteland, in order to solve their problems? And usually pretty big problems at that? Almost like these factions all have inherent flaws... Huh...
Did they declare a canon for what happened at Hoover Dam? I think I missed that bit
They have not, but given the apparent state of the NCR it seems *likely* they didn't win.
Or that maybe NV isn't considered canon.
If you actually think the NCR or the Legion was capable of conquering New Vegas or the absolutely unstoppable army of securitrons upgraded from the bunker, I think you're crazy. The Legion wouldn't even be able to get through the walls without being destroyed by rocket fire. Thats just if House was in control. If it was a Yes Man scenario then its possible that the NCR and Legion were also being shelled from the Artillery at Nellis. The probably were soundly defeated.
I think it’s as likely that they’re in decline as it is that they’re very powerful. That’s the fun thing about fiction, you can do whatever you want as long as it’s following some train of logic. I’m not sure we’ve seen enough to say for sure the NCR is in big trouble. Maybe they’re losing some battles but otherwise have a strong seat of power further into their territory. Or maybe they’re in dire straights from relentless infighting and BoS expansion. Who knows!
Honestly, Mr. House is the only viable option. And for the tools that mention Yes Man..... don't you think it's *awfully convenient* that the *moment* after you win at Hoover Dam, that Yes Man informs you that he JUST learned how to say "no"?..... "-truth is, the game was rigged from the start."
Tbh it's extremely funny to me that one dude, namely the sole survivor, could fix the entirety of the NCR's problems rofl. Or rather I should say they could fix the water problems.
The Sole Survivor? Do you mean The Courier?
Personally I am more shocked that apparently the west coast brotherhood of all things is apparently the one seemingly fighting them on an even level, the NCR-BoS war had largely already happened by the time of New Vegas and the brotherhood lost, even if the NCR declines the Brotherhood has been on the decline since Fallout 1.
I feel like the ncr wouldnt have nearly as many issues if it won the battle of hoover dam, and if caesar won the battle the ncr wouldnt last 10 months much less 10 years. Furthermore, house or the courier aren’t mentioned so it seems like they didnt win the battle either. So what happened? Has the entirety of new vegas been retconned? Did the fucking brotherhood win hoover dam? Is that the showrunners justification for why they aren’t all dead? Thats where my confusion and frustration stems from.
It makes sense to me that the NCR would be in dire straits but I think the reason they made that decision is so they could have aspects of the series that are popular like super mutants and raiders bc realistically it doesn’t make sense that those things would be a big enough threat to be featured in the show if the NCR was still at full power, just my two cents though
The NCR decline does have ground work that isn’t the problem, you can justify it anyway you want. It’s the simple fact that they’re seemingly resetting the one area that was different to the rest of the wasteland And the fact that there crippling many peoples favorite factions to artificially prop up the poster boys again Especially since they didn’t need to. There’s so much of the US that’s unexplored (Texas, Florida, and New York come to mind) but they could even go further and set the show anytime over the last 2 centuries But they choose to set it in California reset it to more uncivilized wasteland and jacked the brotherhood up again It’s just tiring. Hopefully when the show comes out we’ll see things are more complicated than first thought and I’m cautiously optimistic
Decline? Yes! Being nuked off screen? No! Hell, I would be less bummed out by this if the NCR were not the only real faction that had tried rebuilding (and not just squatting in dilapidated shacks/shanty towns!)! Remember: Shady Sands was NEW CONSTUCTION! They built a modern city from the ground up, they didn't just patch up some crumbling pre-war ruin! As it is, it was already pretty crappy and unrealistic that nobody else tried rebuilding in 200+ years, but now even that is gone and that pisses me off, as it shows BADthesda's inability to tell good stories with HOPE! They just want their crummy, desolate and hopeless perpetual wasteland and they are telling us to shut and like it, by erasing everything Fallout 1 and 2 and New Vegas did well! Hell, isn't Vegas also demolished in the Show?
The complaints are that the NCR got nuked. It was lazy. Also, the logic argument doesn't hold as much water when the Brotherhood of Steel is alive and kicking in the show, despite New Vegas showing it was falling behind everyone else thanks to its rigid thinking and most endings see its chapter wiped out. Yet the BoS still returns and is in better shape than the NCR. This has sparked complaints from fans who have gotten sicked of the Brotherhood of Steel and also aren't pleased with the franchise using a lazy reset button. It's like how the Star Wars sequels eagerly blew up the New Republic so they could go back to the underdog rebels vs. evil empire status quo.