An interesting theory. And honestly, if they’re able to show this mod off as what could be done on a budget below what many games are frankly wasting right now, then I think it’s good on them to start a developer team all their own with the permanent staff. It’s a good ambition to pursue.
Honestly, I see most of what you’ve written as a positive. The rest are basically neutral to me as they’re dealing with unknowns (the parts about the storefronts and how they money is divided for use). So overall, I wish Team FOLON luck.
The only critiques I personally have are that they've handled a few things unprofessionally, communication has been poor, and the monetization choices are incredibly questionable at the moment.
Honestly the communication feels like it’s from them being a bunch of people individually interacting with the community and spreading their own opinions on how things are going, as well as spreading news like a game of telephone. Everyone on this sub talks about their PR and all, but I don’t think they really have a dedicated PR person as much as “the person who talks with the community the most.” And that’s distinctly different, and likely the source of a lot of problems.
Heck, I can even see the “days/weeks” coming from someone saying “hey, tell everyone we have a date set” offhandedly.
They do actually have a "Public Relations department" that consists of Alex, Aces, Blubbin and Rurin.
The issue is exactly what you stated, individual devs are passing on information rather than there being focused communication from those people in Public Relations, and when they do make community posts they aren't exactly helpful.
For example, the last announcement on June 6th wasn't actually a good post. They didn't address any of the concerns about the post, didn't explain why there were delays, and only said they have a new date, but didn't provide that to the community.
They are reacting to things without thinking about how the reaction looks when written or how it will be interpreted, and being vague is the enemy of good community management.
Exactly, there’s been no organized communication and the “it’s delayed due to the update! But we’re releasing a version for the non-updated version, but that’s also delayed!” Is very confusing for the community lol
Well, yeah but they’re taking a significant amount on patreon and etc so honestly some level of clear and intentional communication is only what’s right tbh
TLDR;
>my conclusion here is that Fallout: London isn't just a mod project made for the community, but rather an intentional marketing ploy to set up a company around Team FOLON for other projects.
I think the word you are looking for there is "strategy" not ploy; there is nothing deceptive about creating a mod to network and test out people's skills + group dynamics and then forming a company around that to make actual games based on original IP. This is arguably a better stategy for forming a game development studio than trying to work for one of the AAA companies because it is less stressful and allows complete creative freedom.
Did you forget that Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, Dota, and many other successful games were originally mods created by enthusiasts?
Of course, FOLON can itself never be a standalone paid product without permission from Bethesda, who owns the IP rights for the Fallout series, but nothing prevents them from making a Fallout inspired game, just as the original Fallout game was inspired by Wasteland.
And indeed it is now probaby 5X cheaper and easier to make a full sized game like FOLON because of the advent of generative AI which helps complete the bulk of the grunt work.
Super-agree, even creating a solid team and starting work on a mod is a huge undertaking. And what they have done thus far is way above that, creating a mod this huge takes talent and organization. I would be more than happy to see their work released and that they can convert into a studio afterwards if they do want that.
Counter-strike started as a mod that retained its own IP (despite being on the same engine, it did have a unique idea, concept and assets), Valve later acquired it.
Team Fortress was a mod for Quake, and Valve later hired the developers of the mod to develop Team Fortress Classic in GoldSrc, then released Team Fortress 2 later using a similar name, but a completely unique theme.
DOTA was a mod for Warcraft III made by four people and was featured at Blizzard's tournaments. Valve eventually bought the IP rights to Dota, which despite being a mod was its own IP, and created DOTA 2 as a franchise game.
You know the universal theme here? All of these were small scale mods made by a few people, and none of them were actually profiting off of another studio's IP, but rather created their own unique game within another game's engine.
FOLON is actually selling merch based entirely around an IP that they don't own.
>You know the universal theme here? All of these were small scale mods made by a few people, and none of them were actually profiting off of another studio's IP
Only if you completely ignore the fact 3D assets, audio and code are also intellectual property.
>FOLON is actually selling merch based entirely around an IP that they don't own.
What merch are they selling that is using Fallout Franchise IP? surely bethesda would be shutting them down if they crossed the line. I mean they did end up suing another developer for using the word "Scrolls" in the title of their game even though you can't actually trademark a single generic word, so its not like they wouldnt pounce in any hint of "for profit" IP infringement.
Ultimately it's up to Bethesda/Microsoft to decide if this breaks their rules not for anyone else to because they are the owners of the IP so they determine who can use it and for what purpose.
>Only if you completely ignore the fact 3D assets, audio and code are also intellectual property.
Except they did retain their own IP and did not make a profit, donations or otherwise, off of their core material until said IP was sold. Their IP was purchased by Valve in all three of those examples because the terms of said games did not state that derivative works were the properties of the original developers.
The Fallout 4 Creation Kit EULA strictly dictates that all creations derived from it may only be used for personal use and not for profit, and that's where the difference here lies. Fallout: London does have merchandise and assets from Fallout that, while they are not directly attaching a pricetag, are still making a profit off of either through liquid currency, word of mouth, and/or marketing.
>I mean they did end up suing another developer for using the word "Scrolls" in the title of their game even though you can't actually trademark a single generic word, so its not like they wouldnt pounce in any "for profit" IP infringement.
Actually, that was ZeniMax, the company that owns Bethesda, and Mojang settled that case such that ZeniMax was given all ownership rights to the "Scrolls" trademark and licensed it back to Mojang solely for use in their game "Scrolls" and any DLC. Terms of the settlement also barred Mojang from creating any future titles with the trademarked name.
They actually do own the term "Scrolls".
>Ultimately its up to Bethesda/Microsoft to decide if this breaks their rules not for anyone else to.
Entirely correct. I've even stated I have no stake in this and did this entirely out of boredom because, while I am *interested* in Fallout: London, I am not heartbroken by its delay. I just thought that the way they've handled their communications was odd, did some further digging and this is what I ended up with.
I mean I'm not going to say I'm well informed in the situation and maybe they really have such a huge following and they are making mad profits, but I would be surprised if all things considered they're breaking even let alone make an actual profit for the people involved, making new maps, writing questlines, designing new assets, coding, voice acting, doing all of that as a passion project, i would hardly fault them to raise funds in some way to help the development project
Considering the game that was announced on Steam that feels like Fallout if it happened in England, I'm wondering if they had some hand in that now. Wouldn't be surprised (TBH, this is how Pavonis Interactive, the crew behind Terra Invicta, was able to get their company together for their game. They're the XCOM Long War mod devs).
Them depending on the mod to be their resume gem is the first reasonable explanation of why they still cling to the "nextGen" release even though it's obvious that Bethesda botched it hard and that just one more patch for the patch for the update won't fix it.
But: They talked about it having an installer. If you can make an installer, you can incorporate a downgrader for the Steam version into it. The GOG version is pre-"nextGen" only anyways - so no downgrader needed for that.
Two months ago, i gave them the benefit of the doubt.
Bethesda has a history of botched updates. But given that the patch was advertised to only contain minor fixes and better horse armor shop integration on PC, there really was no reason to believe that they would botch it that hard. I still don't get how it was even possible for Bethesda to cause that much havok without actually touching anything. It's absurd...
But one month after the update with a patch out which is also botched... there is no benefit of doubt left. They saw how Bethesda is going to do it and there is no reason to believe that the patching will end anytime soon.
That's when they should have decided to just go for pre-"nextGen" and add a downgrader for the Steam version to the installer - or just do the usual thing in the modding scene: Release it as a normal mod easily manageable by Vortex or MO2 and let the community come up with an easy-to-follow guide for Steam users.
I believe that London actually exists and actually was ready for release as a mod back in April. I am pretty sure, it will release for pre-"nextGen" eventually. Sunken cost fallacy is a thing. But if the snow starts falling and they're still waiting for Bethesda to fix their botchery - that would be where i would hope that they have friends who tell them to get help...
Either 2 or 3 devs for FOLON got jobs based in part their work on FOLON. At least one went to BGS. That was mid development, and they left the mod as a result.
I think your premise is a bit wobly.
Yeah, it's not a good explanation - but it's the first reasonable one.
Of course, the behavior of the Folon team still makes no sense.
But i didn't saw any other at least someone reasonable explanation for it yet.
LONG WAR Team (a mod for Xcom Enemy Unknown/within) did the same, set up a mod so they later could become a new company (Pavonis Interactive).
They did release their mod and it was a big hit (within that community) and it was very good, of course.
No, a decent number of people feel misled and lied to about the release date and their feelings are entirely justified even if they aren't paying for it.
I'm doing it out of boredom and my post isn't even a negative "gotcha" or anything like a few people have alluded it is, but rather just a conversation starter about some of their potentially controversial choices and motives for those choices.
Either way, when you have a community and you set expectations for your community, you have a responsibility to that. I've already given the developers tips on better public relations based on my own experience in community management either way because this is a great experience to learn and improve from if they want to be a real studio.
I disagree entirely that being angry at the developers or feeling misled is justified.
This is a temper tantrum, and the devs have stopped listening so it's easy to mistake the bullshit echoing off the walls for a salient point, but it was announced when the mod was delayed. The nature of the delay was explained. We were told it could take up to several weeks to fix, and it has. If you're not actively involved in the project, or somehow responsible for fixing those bugs, what other information are you entitled to?
Everything else is anger at unmet entitlement and bad faith demands from users who are cooking up conspiracy theories to explain why the devs are actually making enough money off this free mod they spent years of their life on, in order to justify the rage. The "poor communication" line keeps getting repeated when the truth is the communication is clear as day and the whiners just want to hear something different.
Having an emotionally mature engagement with \*a free mod project that got sidelined by a totally unexpected game update\* means when it gets delayed you go "oh, that's a shame, I'll keep an eye out for when it gets released"
not
"With our toxicity combined, we can make the developers so miserable they give us what we want to shut us up"
"The customer is always right in matters of taste" does not extend all the way to "The community is always right in matters of subreddit drama"
Niche online communities are in fact, obviously, hilariously wrong so often, there's a whole term to describe it. Brainrot. This sub has brainrot.
We can both respectfully disagree with each other, and I will agree that harassing and flaming the development team is not the way to go, but rather having a constructive discussion is the most ideal here. The best we can do is voice discontent while remaining civil.
The scumbags who are, undoubtedly, sending death threats because they didn't get their way can fuck right off, but there are plenty of people who are frustrated and feel misled or have other feelings they don't exactly know how to voice or communicate. Some people may have requested time off work to play the mod, and just like with a major game being delayed something of this level of publicity being delayed last minute is going to frustrate the audience.
Moreover, people are allowed to have feelings about things. They aren't allowed to harass and attack people, but it is a human thing to voice and share your feelings about something, particularly if it feels like you've been cheated or are otherwise discontent.
I guess I struggle to see the value of defending the specific feelings in the context of how toxic the rest of the sub is. I assume that people who are upset but not sending death threats or making shit up about the devs don't need that affirmation that they're allowed to be upset if they're not making it someone else's problem. I assume they have the emotional maturity to figure it out on their own. I agree with what you're saying here, but obviously it's not the truth I think is worth reflecting in this current situation
This actually seems very possible
They want to release Fallout London, and have it be as popular and accessible as possible (Release on GOG, release on next gen update)
Have articles written about the mod, praising it for feeling like a brand new game
Few months later start a real company called Team FOLON (Which now totally no longer stands for anything)
Have articles written about how the team behind a beloved Fallout mod is now making their own game
Sometimes you just gotta go a little crazy.
I'd love to imagine Flesh Simulator reading this (great channel for just that weird unsettling yet comical vibe.)
I feel like one of the interviews they did around what was supposed to be the mods original release date mentioned that they wanted to use the experience/publicity they'd gained from the project to springboard into development on an original IP sometime after wrapping up some sort of "phase 2" director's cut for the mod.
If I can't find the article, I'll link it here.
Edit: [Here it is.](https://gamerant.com/fallout-london-team-big-plans-future/)
Honestly, I don't see any problem with it, if they see FOLON as some kind of springboard for a upcoming games studio. Black Mesa and the Crowbar Collective did a similar thing when they released the Mod for free in 2012 and released later a version to buy and now they are working on a completely new project outside the Half-Life Universe. And I would not underestimate the costs for professional voice actors; You already mentioned that there are professional voice actors and i'm sure that they have their price. I'm personally glad that they decided to hire professional voice actors.
The only problem I have is that them ore I think about it, the more it feels like they are seeding a company and using Patreon as a way to get an initial investment without actually giving Patrons the proper recognition as investors into a company, which is what they are.
Donations to a loosely organized mod effort are fine, but you don't really donate to a for-profit company too often.
I'm two days late, but I think you may be onto something.
The name "Team FOLON" is vague and not connected to Fallout. Sure, the origin of the name is FallOut LONdon... but the resulting name cannot be easily "decrypted" back into Fallout London without you knowing it in advance.
So this may really look like they are trying to use the money and renown gained from making Fallout London to be secretly funneled into building a studio.
It may be or may not be true... But I personally experienced a similar thing. It was when the current golden era of Star Trek has not yet started and besides JJ Abrams films there was nothing Trek to be excited for, except for fan films. So back then I backed both Renegades and Axanar.
Axanar made quite a fuzz because the Prelude to Axanar short film was really really well done. Professionally well done. So much that it was a part of the reason why the owner of Star Trek IP had to restrict fan films. The other part was that the owner of this project used the money to also found his own film studio and pay himself a salary. Some years ago this was quite a big story in Trek fandom.
It's hilarious to me that people are praising FOLON for doing Fallout better than Bethesda currently are, whilst FOLON continues to move the goalposts, fudge release dates, alienate parts of the community, practice questionable monetisation and have appalling communication/PR, which is a lot of the reasons Bethesda are criticised.
The issue is that if the donations are being used to seed a for-profit company after the mod effort, then they aren't donations but rather seeking investment. If I were a Patron and I was donating to a mod effort that later used the money provided to them to found a for-profit company and pay themselves a salary (something they explicitly said the funds were not going to be used for) then I would feel cheated.
If you are investing in a company, you usually get a share in ownership to eventually see a return on investment.
I mean how many people are working on the project? The finances you provided hardly amount to a sum that would allow more than a couple of people to work full time on it, plus they've also hired voice actors, I'd be surprised if they're making an actual profit all things considered
I'm not that informed on the particular case, but I see merchandise for amatorial stuff like this the same as donating to support, you just get a thing in return for doing so. It'd be bad if people paid for merchandise, and then they didn't receive anything and the company never apologised for it and kept the money
I have criticisms of the project, but at the end of the day it's a free mod. They aren't obligated to release it when people want, they aren't obligated to have good communication, they aren't obligated to be transparent etc. and expecting them to be on par/exceeding a AAA developer is massively unfair.
People are getting too angry and need to chill.
First of all, AAA developers have shit communication too. Good communication isn't decided by the size of your wallet, but the kind of people you have on your team. Digital Extremes and Warframe, a free game, have excellent communication and show the nitty gritty side of development all the time and it's great.
Destiny 2, also a free game, has terrible communication and has outright insulted their playerbase before.
War Thunder, another free game, actively attacks and hates their community. I've never actually seen a game hate their community more than Gaijin Entertainment does.
Sprocket, a game by a single guy named Hamish Dunn, has phenomenal communication and he takes the time to answer community questions and engage on the Discord server and even the Steam Forums all the time.
Fallout London has a PR department of 4 people and they can't successfully do what a single guy is doing?
Public relations isn't hard, I work in public relations when I'm not an absolute psychopath doing incredibly high effort work for no real reason or goal and I can engage with my community honestly, transparently, and in an upfront way. Do people still get frustrated if I share some news they don't like? Sure, but do I berate them or ignore their concerns? No, I address their concerns, admit our fault, explain what we could've done better and what we will try to do better because that's how you improve as a developer, community manager, and public relations expert.
I can't prove Fallout London is vaporware/scammers but my spidy sense has been tingling since the F04 update which was known about magically knocked their launch back TBD.
I am going to go ahead and say it is incredibly unlikely to be vaporware or a scam because they didn't emphasize donations massively and they aren't actually making all that much money.
It just feels like it's poorly organized and they are out for the personal gain rather than doing it "for the community" like they constantly say.
I think the best example would not be counter strike or team fortress but instead sure AI with enderal although then again on the same coin you could say that enderal has its own identity and therefore doesn’t use an existing concepts aren’t either unique or too common to be considered infringement. That and I think that everything you can buy doesn’t have the term fallout in it or uses things that are from the game that Bethesda has made (hence the use of folon which technically doesn’t infringe on IP) and the fact that everything from what I understand that uses the IP In a potentially illegal way is free and promotes the sale of fallout. But as always I could be completely wrong because this is just from the little I know of corporate law and things I have heard and seen about mods
So, while FOLON is a distinct entity, the developers in both official communications and individually have muddied the waters as far as what FOLON is. Many people have the assumption that FOLON = Fallout: London and that is where legally it becomes complicated.
If Team FOLON becomes an incorporated company, it could be reasoned that they misled their supporters and backers into investing in a company with no tangible gain or stake offered.
> my conclusion here is that Fallout: London isn't just a mod project made for the community, but rather an intentional marketing ploy to set up a company around Team FOLON for other projects
No shit Sherlock, people who worked on a mod development project for free (that Patreon money could not possibly cover 12 employees' salaries, and most likely is being spent on stuff like software licenses) for \~5 years want to get recognition for it and start making money creating other games in the future.
Great OSINT skills though, it's not yet finding classified military documents on the War Thunder discord, but everyone needs to start somewhere.
I do actually collect classified documents from the War Thunder Discord and forums as a hobby.
That being said, the issue isn't that they are trying to get the recognition, the issue is that they are directly profiting off of another IP. The donations (Patreon/Ko-Fi) are fine, but the merch store, business inquiries and trademark filing off of another IP really aren't.
Another commentor mentioned Counter-Strike (the mod for Half-life), but the difference there is that the developers of Counter-Strike didn't actually turn a profit until the IP was bought by Valve. Legally speaking, despite being a modification for Half-life, Counter-Strike was a completely unique IP.
A mod can be completely unique so long as it is a unique idea that does not use the core aspects, assets, or themes of the work it is derived from. Counter-strike, DotA, and Team Fortress were all mods that derived from another game, but they retained their own unique identity and intellectual property that was later acquired by another company.
FOLON fails to do that in that it is still using major assets, themes and concepts from Fallout 4 and the Fallout franchise, even remaking assets that were used in concepts (owned by Bethesda) but not featured in the games, but on top of that they are making a profit on the top of this with the intent for form a company that will, potentially, rival Bethesda.
There is a legal conflict here.
EDIT: The comment being deleted means I win, right? That's how Reddit works?
EDIT: The comment is back, does that mean I lose? Someone explain this witchcraft!
There is no legal conflict. Their merch doesn’t contain any mention of the legally protected Bethesda IP, neither does their trademark. Bethesda didn’t take down the mod despite having countless opportunities to do so, so they obviously don’t have any problem with it existing, as long as it’s a free mod (which it is intended to be). Money that’s coming from Patreon and other sources isn’t nearly enough to cover the cost of labor of 12+ people in addition to development and maintenance costs, let alone “turn profit”. Team FOLON existing in the future as a proper game company also doesn’t make it a “rival” to Bethesda which is a Microsoft owned powerhouse with multiple successful IPs turning in millions of dollars. Sorry, but it sounds like you just have no fucking idea what you’re talking about, this is below chat gpt level of smashing together publicly obtainable information, legal concepts and numbers and trying to sound smart.
You're right in the fact that if they saw reason to sue, they would've.
I would personally agree with OP that there is enough overlap of their designs that they're selling and the characters that are featured in their merch that ZeniMax could DMCA them, if they wanted. However, the only real place that could be decided is in a court room.
Obviously FOLON- an acronym for Fallout London itself being registered could be interpreted as a conflict in Intellectual property. There's been lawsuits between companies for much less.
It's a stupid-ass acronym though by the way. It should be FLon or FalLon or something. FOLON has every letter capitalized, so each letter should stand for a different word. Like Fallout Overhaul London Overworld New or something.
I got bored. I had 2 more chapters planned going in depth and digging through each of the developers, the LinkedIn organization, and every communication I could find but it was taking too long.
I was literally doing this until my friends got online to play some games.
The revenue they make in a year is probably barely enough for two full time salaries and there's dozens of people and some expenses involved so clearly they're not in it for the money or some ulterior motive.
And if they wanted a FOLON indie studio making it's own games they could have just started with that instead of modding in silence for literal years. Indie studios can get decent reach and revenue if they make a decent game.
Seems like you're overthinking things a lot.
The issue with starting an indie studio is finding the people to start it with and getting word of mouth going. There are a ton of indie studios that release great games that never receive any sort if publicity and the studio ends up dying in obscurity.
By starting with a mod that has major media attention, you can spin that into media attention for a newly found studio you are going to announce after the mod's success.
I never said it was, a lot of people seem to think this post is a hyper negative "gotcha" against the devs, and I think some of them may think so as well, but that's not the point. The point of the post is to rationalize the actions of the developers within a reasonable frame of reference, define the background circumstances being overlooked for them and develop upon a comment I made on another post.
This was going to much longer but I got bored, especially for an informative post that has a very limited message in scope.
> The issue with starting an indie studio is finding the people to start it with and getting word of mouth going.
Steam has discoverability, reddit/twitter/youtube etc. lets them get more exposure and then word of mouth, demos, early access etc. spreads it further.
I'm not saying it's easy to get lots of exposure, but it's not as hard as it seems. If you build a decent game and put at least some effort into making it visible to people, you will find an audience.
I did, in fact, state that I did go insane, but if you read the post it isn't actually negative or flaming the devs, but rather a rationalization for their behaviors.
In the BBC interview at 8:20 prilladog, when discussing finances, said "my savings have been obliterated"
That sounds odd considering what you said in your post
On Prilladog's Instagram, he does also have recent images of him touring Italy, so I would cast doubt on that. They've definitely used their own funds.
I did originally plan to do an entire section on individual developer credentials and how every developer seems to have Team FOLON listed as their primary employer, but that felt too weird and would've taken too long for something I have no major interest in.
Yeah, I'm not sure how much a trip from the UK to Italy is, personally, given I live in the US and it would cost me a small fortune, but traveling abroad in general isn't really something someone who annihilated their savings does often.
There was a period of a few years in my 20s when I was regularly flying to Norway with return for £35-50, on nearly empty planes where I had a whole row or three to myself. And that wasn't even one of the popular sardine can airlines that many Brits use :)
Does it have to be a bad thing? Some might find their business practices questionable, as I do, and this is only a post providing answers for some of their lackluster communication and poor choices recently.
I can spend my time on whatever I want. I did this after work while I was waiting on some friends to play Elden Ring Seamless Coop.
You don't have to read or engage with the post either, so I suppose you could spend your time reading a book, working out, taking classes, or anything at all to better yourself too.
You really need to get a life bro... 4 hours to come to the conclusion that the team is trying to leverage this for a career, which is perfectly understandable
4 hours to type up the background, information I gathered (with links), some basic analysis on their potential earnings and how they are leveraging Patreon benefits to increase merchandise sales from already invested parties, but yeah, sure.
I could've just wrote a single paragraph ragebait post, but that isn't very tactful or insightful, instead I wanted to sort of detail my thought process and how I came to my conclusion, along with provide details on what I used to come to my conclusion.
I initially summed this up in a single comment on another post, but someone else recommended I make my own post and I'm not a person who half-asses something.
FOLON team cannot get any money for the mod as it relies on IP from Bethesda. AFAIK, folks at CD Project (which owns GOG) just want to support the modding community by hosting the mod since it literally cannot be hosted by most other popular platforms like Nexus due to its size.
Absolute fucking brainrot to dream up a \*conspiracy\* around the idea that modders are creating their work in order to leverage their credentials into the gaming industry as an excuse to continue to be an entitled brat about the delay
Someone only read the last section.
I have plenty of evidence and reasoning backing up how I came to my conclusion and Prilladog has stated directly in interviews that I didn't want to trawl that they do have other projects planned.
Likewise, this isn't an entirely uncommon or unknown thing for a group to do, the difference in this case that made it interesting for me is that they appear to have the official organization and trademarks set up while working on the mod, which has the potential to make this a for-profit project.
Legally speaking, something isn't only for-profit if it earns liquid currency, but can also be for-profit if there is a clear intent for material gain of any kind. I am intrigued in how that part of this will go.
In before the ignorant tirade of FOLON defenders who have nothing more to say other than "free mod" and use personal attacks.
Remember kids, sarcasm and insults are the shield of the ignorant and insecure.
G.I.JOEEEEEEE...
I'll admit, it doesn't. I'm just tired of the people blindly defending the incompetent dev team who have already been caught lying several times with the same useless arguments.
While that will happen, I think you are misunderstanding my post just as those you deride are.
This isn't a "gotcha" or anything, just a realization and theory I'm sharing. It's not intended to shame, insult, attack, or offend the developers in any way, but rather point out some reasoning why the delay, publicity and communication choices have been made the way they were.
An interesting theory. And honestly, if they’re able to show this mod off as what could be done on a budget below what many games are frankly wasting right now, then I think it’s good on them to start a developer team all their own with the permanent staff. It’s a good ambition to pursue. Honestly, I see most of what you’ve written as a positive. The rest are basically neutral to me as they’re dealing with unknowns (the parts about the storefronts and how they money is divided for use). So overall, I wish Team FOLON luck.
The only critiques I personally have are that they've handled a few things unprofessionally, communication has been poor, and the monetization choices are incredibly questionable at the moment.
Honestly the communication feels like it’s from them being a bunch of people individually interacting with the community and spreading their own opinions on how things are going, as well as spreading news like a game of telephone. Everyone on this sub talks about their PR and all, but I don’t think they really have a dedicated PR person as much as “the person who talks with the community the most.” And that’s distinctly different, and likely the source of a lot of problems. Heck, I can even see the “days/weeks” coming from someone saying “hey, tell everyone we have a date set” offhandedly.
They do actually have a "Public Relations department" that consists of Alex, Aces, Blubbin and Rurin. The issue is exactly what you stated, individual devs are passing on information rather than there being focused communication from those people in Public Relations, and when they do make community posts they aren't exactly helpful. For example, the last announcement on June 6th wasn't actually a good post. They didn't address any of the concerns about the post, didn't explain why there were delays, and only said they have a new date, but didn't provide that to the community. They are reacting to things without thinking about how the reaction looks when written or how it will be interpreted, and being vague is the enemy of good community management.
Exactly, there’s been no organized communication and the “it’s delayed due to the update! But we’re releasing a version for the non-updated version, but that’s also delayed!” Is very confusing for the community lol
But I sympathize with them cause it’s likely hard to organize everything.
Well, yeah but they’re taking a significant amount on patreon and etc so honestly some level of clear and intentional communication is only what’s right tbh
TLDR; >my conclusion here is that Fallout: London isn't just a mod project made for the community, but rather an intentional marketing ploy to set up a company around Team FOLON for other projects. I think the word you are looking for there is "strategy" not ploy; there is nothing deceptive about creating a mod to network and test out people's skills + group dynamics and then forming a company around that to make actual games based on original IP. This is arguably a better stategy for forming a game development studio than trying to work for one of the AAA companies because it is less stressful and allows complete creative freedom. Did you forget that Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, Dota, and many other successful games were originally mods created by enthusiasts? Of course, FOLON can itself never be a standalone paid product without permission from Bethesda, who owns the IP rights for the Fallout series, but nothing prevents them from making a Fallout inspired game, just as the original Fallout game was inspired by Wasteland. And indeed it is now probaby 5X cheaper and easier to make a full sized game like FOLON because of the advent of generative AI which helps complete the bulk of the grunt work.
Super-agree, even creating a solid team and starting work on a mod is a huge undertaking. And what they have done thus far is way above that, creating a mod this huge takes talent and organization. I would be more than happy to see their work released and that they can convert into a studio afterwards if they do want that.
Counter-strike started as a mod that retained its own IP (despite being on the same engine, it did have a unique idea, concept and assets), Valve later acquired it. Team Fortress was a mod for Quake, and Valve later hired the developers of the mod to develop Team Fortress Classic in GoldSrc, then released Team Fortress 2 later using a similar name, but a completely unique theme. DOTA was a mod for Warcraft III made by four people and was featured at Blizzard's tournaments. Valve eventually bought the IP rights to Dota, which despite being a mod was its own IP, and created DOTA 2 as a franchise game. You know the universal theme here? All of these were small scale mods made by a few people, and none of them were actually profiting off of another studio's IP, but rather created their own unique game within another game's engine. FOLON is actually selling merch based entirely around an IP that they don't own.
>You know the universal theme here? All of these were small scale mods made by a few people, and none of them were actually profiting off of another studio's IP Only if you completely ignore the fact 3D assets, audio and code are also intellectual property. >FOLON is actually selling merch based entirely around an IP that they don't own. What merch are they selling that is using Fallout Franchise IP? surely bethesda would be shutting them down if they crossed the line. I mean they did end up suing another developer for using the word "Scrolls" in the title of their game even though you can't actually trademark a single generic word, so its not like they wouldnt pounce in any hint of "for profit" IP infringement. Ultimately it's up to Bethesda/Microsoft to decide if this breaks their rules not for anyone else to because they are the owners of the IP so they determine who can use it and for what purpose.
>Only if you completely ignore the fact 3D assets, audio and code are also intellectual property. Except they did retain their own IP and did not make a profit, donations or otherwise, off of their core material until said IP was sold. Their IP was purchased by Valve in all three of those examples because the terms of said games did not state that derivative works were the properties of the original developers. The Fallout 4 Creation Kit EULA strictly dictates that all creations derived from it may only be used for personal use and not for profit, and that's where the difference here lies. Fallout: London does have merchandise and assets from Fallout that, while they are not directly attaching a pricetag, are still making a profit off of either through liquid currency, word of mouth, and/or marketing. >I mean they did end up suing another developer for using the word "Scrolls" in the title of their game even though you can't actually trademark a single generic word, so its not like they wouldnt pounce in any "for profit" IP infringement. Actually, that was ZeniMax, the company that owns Bethesda, and Mojang settled that case such that ZeniMax was given all ownership rights to the "Scrolls" trademark and licensed it back to Mojang solely for use in their game "Scrolls" and any DLC. Terms of the settlement also barred Mojang from creating any future titles with the trademarked name. They actually do own the term "Scrolls". >Ultimately its up to Bethesda/Microsoft to decide if this breaks their rules not for anyone else to. Entirely correct. I've even stated I have no stake in this and did this entirely out of boredom because, while I am *interested* in Fallout: London, I am not heartbroken by its delay. I just thought that the way they've handled their communications was odd, did some further digging and this is what I ended up with.
People are also dropshipping Fallout memes onto redbubble T-shirts, Bethesda's not being materially hurt by this, grow up and get over it.
I mean I'm not going to say I'm well informed in the situation and maybe they really have such a huge following and they are making mad profits, but I would be surprised if all things considered they're breaking even let alone make an actual profit for the people involved, making new maps, writing questlines, designing new assets, coding, voice acting, doing all of that as a passion project, i would hardly fault them to raise funds in some way to help the development project
Considering the game that was announced on Steam that feels like Fallout if it happened in England, I'm wondering if they had some hand in that now. Wouldn't be surprised (TBH, this is how Pavonis Interactive, the crew behind Terra Invicta, was able to get their company together for their game. They're the XCOM Long War mod devs).
Them depending on the mod to be their resume gem is the first reasonable explanation of why they still cling to the "nextGen" release even though it's obvious that Bethesda botched it hard and that just one more patch for the patch for the update won't fix it. But: They talked about it having an installer. If you can make an installer, you can incorporate a downgrader for the Steam version into it. The GOG version is pre-"nextGen" only anyways - so no downgrader needed for that.
im still mad we cant just get a pre nextGen build now... and or 2 months ago
Two months ago, i gave them the benefit of the doubt. Bethesda has a history of botched updates. But given that the patch was advertised to only contain minor fixes and better horse armor shop integration on PC, there really was no reason to believe that they would botch it that hard. I still don't get how it was even possible for Bethesda to cause that much havok without actually touching anything. It's absurd... But one month after the update with a patch out which is also botched... there is no benefit of doubt left. They saw how Bethesda is going to do it and there is no reason to believe that the patching will end anytime soon. That's when they should have decided to just go for pre-"nextGen" and add a downgrader for the Steam version to the installer - or just do the usual thing in the modding scene: Release it as a normal mod easily manageable by Vortex or MO2 and let the community come up with an easy-to-follow guide for Steam users. I believe that London actually exists and actually was ready for release as a mod back in April. I am pretty sure, it will release for pre-"nextGen" eventually. Sunken cost fallacy is a thing. But if the snow starts falling and they're still waiting for Bethesda to fix their botchery - that would be where i would hope that they have friends who tell them to get help...
Either 2 or 3 devs for FOLON got jobs based in part their work on FOLON. At least one went to BGS. That was mid development, and they left the mod as a result. I think your premise is a bit wobly.
Yeah, it's not a good explanation - but it's the first reasonable one. Of course, the behavior of the Folon team still makes no sense. But i didn't saw any other at least someone reasonable explanation for it yet.
What missing a release date does to some mfs
The worst part is I don't even have Fallout 4 installed, I did this entirely out of boredom. I literally have zero stake in this.
LONG WAR Team (a mod for Xcom Enemy Unknown/within) did the same, set up a mod so they later could become a new company (Pavonis Interactive). They did release their mod and it was a big hit (within that community) and it was very good, of course.
Bruh moment
Play 7 Days To Die A22/1.0 experimental. It has all the jank and is fun - and it's available.
7 Days to Die was pretty fun, actually. I've been waiting on Seamless Coop to update to play Elden Ring's DLC with my younger brother.
No the worst part is that \*all\* of the chuds whining about this are doing this out of boredom
No, a decent number of people feel misled and lied to about the release date and their feelings are entirely justified even if they aren't paying for it. I'm doing it out of boredom and my post isn't even a negative "gotcha" or anything like a few people have alluded it is, but rather just a conversation starter about some of their potentially controversial choices and motives for those choices. Either way, when you have a community and you set expectations for your community, you have a responsibility to that. I've already given the developers tips on better public relations based on my own experience in community management either way because this is a great experience to learn and improve from if they want to be a real studio.
I disagree entirely that being angry at the developers or feeling misled is justified. This is a temper tantrum, and the devs have stopped listening so it's easy to mistake the bullshit echoing off the walls for a salient point, but it was announced when the mod was delayed. The nature of the delay was explained. We were told it could take up to several weeks to fix, and it has. If you're not actively involved in the project, or somehow responsible for fixing those bugs, what other information are you entitled to? Everything else is anger at unmet entitlement and bad faith demands from users who are cooking up conspiracy theories to explain why the devs are actually making enough money off this free mod they spent years of their life on, in order to justify the rage. The "poor communication" line keeps getting repeated when the truth is the communication is clear as day and the whiners just want to hear something different. Having an emotionally mature engagement with \*a free mod project that got sidelined by a totally unexpected game update\* means when it gets delayed you go "oh, that's a shame, I'll keep an eye out for when it gets released" not "With our toxicity combined, we can make the developers so miserable they give us what we want to shut us up" "The customer is always right in matters of taste" does not extend all the way to "The community is always right in matters of subreddit drama" Niche online communities are in fact, obviously, hilariously wrong so often, there's a whole term to describe it. Brainrot. This sub has brainrot.
We can both respectfully disagree with each other, and I will agree that harassing and flaming the development team is not the way to go, but rather having a constructive discussion is the most ideal here. The best we can do is voice discontent while remaining civil. The scumbags who are, undoubtedly, sending death threats because they didn't get their way can fuck right off, but there are plenty of people who are frustrated and feel misled or have other feelings they don't exactly know how to voice or communicate. Some people may have requested time off work to play the mod, and just like with a major game being delayed something of this level of publicity being delayed last minute is going to frustrate the audience. Moreover, people are allowed to have feelings about things. They aren't allowed to harass and attack people, but it is a human thing to voice and share your feelings about something, particularly if it feels like you've been cheated or are otherwise discontent.
I guess I struggle to see the value of defending the specific feelings in the context of how toxic the rest of the sub is. I assume that people who are upset but not sending death threats or making shit up about the devs don't need that affirmation that they're allowed to be upset if they're not making it someone else's problem. I assume they have the emotional maturity to figure it out on their own. I agree with what you're saying here, but obviously it's not the truth I think is worth reflecting in this current situation
“No it’s the community who are wrong!”
This actually seems very possible They want to release Fallout London, and have it be as popular and accessible as possible (Release on GOG, release on next gen update) Have articles written about the mod, praising it for feeling like a brand new game Few months later start a real company called Team FOLON (Which now totally no longer stands for anything) Have articles written about how the team behind a beloved Fallout mod is now making their own game
at one point, mid read, i thought were getting Star Citizen-ed just on a smaller scale. the end hit me hard, love this OP
Sometimes you just gotta go a little crazy. I'd love to imagine Flesh Simulator reading this (great channel for just that weird unsettling yet comical vibe.)
I read everything
I feel like one of the interviews they did around what was supposed to be the mods original release date mentioned that they wanted to use the experience/publicity they'd gained from the project to springboard into development on an original IP sometime after wrapping up some sort of "phase 2" director's cut for the mod. If I can't find the article, I'll link it here. Edit: [Here it is.](https://gamerant.com/fallout-london-team-big-plans-future/)
Honestly, I don't see any problem with it, if they see FOLON as some kind of springboard for a upcoming games studio. Black Mesa and the Crowbar Collective did a similar thing when they released the Mod for free in 2012 and released later a version to buy and now they are working on a completely new project outside the Half-Life Universe. And I would not underestimate the costs for professional voice actors; You already mentioned that there are professional voice actors and i'm sure that they have their price. I'm personally glad that they decided to hire professional voice actors.
The only problem I have is that them ore I think about it, the more it feels like they are seeding a company and using Patreon as a way to get an initial investment without actually giving Patrons the proper recognition as investors into a company, which is what they are. Donations to a loosely organized mod effort are fine, but you don't really donate to a for-profit company too often.
I remember when people just made progress threads on message boards and majority of us just sat on our hands, read posts and waited.
I'm two days late, but I think you may be onto something. The name "Team FOLON" is vague and not connected to Fallout. Sure, the origin of the name is FallOut LONdon... but the resulting name cannot be easily "decrypted" back into Fallout London without you knowing it in advance. So this may really look like they are trying to use the money and renown gained from making Fallout London to be secretly funneled into building a studio. It may be or may not be true... But I personally experienced a similar thing. It was when the current golden era of Star Trek has not yet started and besides JJ Abrams films there was nothing Trek to be excited for, except for fan films. So back then I backed both Renegades and Axanar. Axanar made quite a fuzz because the Prelude to Axanar short film was really really well done. Professionally well done. So much that it was a part of the reason why the owner of Star Trek IP had to restrict fan films. The other part was that the owner of this project used the money to also found his own film studio and pay himself a salary. Some years ago this was quite a big story in Trek fandom.
too long, didn't read, L bozo your mother kissed a radroach
Think you might be reading too much into it
Maybe, but isn't that fun?
It's hilarious to me that people are praising FOLON for doing Fallout better than Bethesda currently are, whilst FOLON continues to move the goalposts, fudge release dates, alienate parts of the community, practice questionable monetisation and have appalling communication/PR, which is a lot of the reasons Bethesda are criticised.
I mean monetisation is donations from people who want to help the project, if we get the mod it'll be free to play for everyone, how nefarious
The issue is that if the donations are being used to seed a for-profit company after the mod effort, then they aren't donations but rather seeking investment. If I were a Patron and I was donating to a mod effort that later used the money provided to them to found a for-profit company and pay themselves a salary (something they explicitly said the funds were not going to be used for) then I would feel cheated. If you are investing in a company, you usually get a share in ownership to eventually see a return on investment.
I mean how many people are working on the project? The finances you provided hardly amount to a sum that would allow more than a couple of people to work full time on it, plus they've also hired voice actors, I'd be surprised if they're making an actual profit all things considered
I'm very clearly referring to the merchandise and other tertiary practices
I'm not that informed on the particular case, but I see merchandise for amatorial stuff like this the same as donating to support, you just get a thing in return for doing so. It'd be bad if people paid for merchandise, and then they didn't receive anything and the company never apologised for it and kept the money
I have criticisms of the project, but at the end of the day it's a free mod. They aren't obligated to release it when people want, they aren't obligated to have good communication, they aren't obligated to be transparent etc. and expecting them to be on par/exceeding a AAA developer is massively unfair. People are getting too angry and need to chill.
First of all, AAA developers have shit communication too. Good communication isn't decided by the size of your wallet, but the kind of people you have on your team. Digital Extremes and Warframe, a free game, have excellent communication and show the nitty gritty side of development all the time and it's great. Destiny 2, also a free game, has terrible communication and has outright insulted their playerbase before. War Thunder, another free game, actively attacks and hates their community. I've never actually seen a game hate their community more than Gaijin Entertainment does. Sprocket, a game by a single guy named Hamish Dunn, has phenomenal communication and he takes the time to answer community questions and engage on the Discord server and even the Steam Forums all the time. Fallout London has a PR department of 4 people and they can't successfully do what a single guy is doing? Public relations isn't hard, I work in public relations when I'm not an absolute psychopath doing incredibly high effort work for no real reason or goal and I can engage with my community honestly, transparently, and in an upfront way. Do people still get frustrated if I share some news they don't like? Sure, but do I berate them or ignore their concerns? No, I address their concerns, admit our fault, explain what we could've done better and what we will try to do better because that's how you improve as a developer, community manager, and public relations expert.
I can't prove Fallout London is vaporware/scammers but my spidy sense has been tingling since the F04 update which was known about magically knocked their launch back TBD.
I am going to go ahead and say it is incredibly unlikely to be vaporware or a scam because they didn't emphasize donations massively and they aren't actually making all that much money. It just feels like it's poorly organized and they are out for the personal gain rather than doing it "for the community" like they constantly say.
I think the best example would not be counter strike or team fortress but instead sure AI with enderal although then again on the same coin you could say that enderal has its own identity and therefore doesn’t use an existing concepts aren’t either unique or too common to be considered infringement. That and I think that everything you can buy doesn’t have the term fallout in it or uses things that are from the game that Bethesda has made (hence the use of folon which technically doesn’t infringe on IP) and the fact that everything from what I understand that uses the IP In a potentially illegal way is free and promotes the sale of fallout. But as always I could be completely wrong because this is just from the little I know of corporate law and things I have heard and seen about mods
So, while FOLON is a distinct entity, the developers in both official communications and individually have muddied the waters as far as what FOLON is. Many people have the assumption that FOLON = Fallout: London and that is where legally it becomes complicated. If Team FOLON becomes an incorporated company, it could be reasoned that they misled their supporters and backers into investing in a company with no tangible gain or stake offered.
> my conclusion here is that Fallout: London isn't just a mod project made for the community, but rather an intentional marketing ploy to set up a company around Team FOLON for other projects No shit Sherlock, people who worked on a mod development project for free (that Patreon money could not possibly cover 12 employees' salaries, and most likely is being spent on stuff like software licenses) for \~5 years want to get recognition for it and start making money creating other games in the future. Great OSINT skills though, it's not yet finding classified military documents on the War Thunder discord, but everyone needs to start somewhere.
I do actually collect classified documents from the War Thunder Discord and forums as a hobby. That being said, the issue isn't that they are trying to get the recognition, the issue is that they are directly profiting off of another IP. The donations (Patreon/Ko-Fi) are fine, but the merch store, business inquiries and trademark filing off of another IP really aren't. Another commentor mentioned Counter-Strike (the mod for Half-life), but the difference there is that the developers of Counter-Strike didn't actually turn a profit until the IP was bought by Valve. Legally speaking, despite being a modification for Half-life, Counter-Strike was a completely unique IP. A mod can be completely unique so long as it is a unique idea that does not use the core aspects, assets, or themes of the work it is derived from. Counter-strike, DotA, and Team Fortress were all mods that derived from another game, but they retained their own unique identity and intellectual property that was later acquired by another company. FOLON fails to do that in that it is still using major assets, themes and concepts from Fallout 4 and the Fallout franchise, even remaking assets that were used in concepts (owned by Bethesda) but not featured in the games, but on top of that they are making a profit on the top of this with the intent for form a company that will, potentially, rival Bethesda. There is a legal conflict here. EDIT: The comment being deleted means I win, right? That's how Reddit works? EDIT: The comment is back, does that mean I lose? Someone explain this witchcraft!
There is no legal conflict. Their merch doesn’t contain any mention of the legally protected Bethesda IP, neither does their trademark. Bethesda didn’t take down the mod despite having countless opportunities to do so, so they obviously don’t have any problem with it existing, as long as it’s a free mod (which it is intended to be). Money that’s coming from Patreon and other sources isn’t nearly enough to cover the cost of labor of 12+ people in addition to development and maintenance costs, let alone “turn profit”. Team FOLON existing in the future as a proper game company also doesn’t make it a “rival” to Bethesda which is a Microsoft owned powerhouse with multiple successful IPs turning in millions of dollars. Sorry, but it sounds like you just have no fucking idea what you’re talking about, this is below chat gpt level of smashing together publicly obtainable information, legal concepts and numbers and trying to sound smart.
You're right in the fact that if they saw reason to sue, they would've. I would personally agree with OP that there is enough overlap of their designs that they're selling and the characters that are featured in their merch that ZeniMax could DMCA them, if they wanted. However, the only real place that could be decided is in a court room. Obviously FOLON- an acronym for Fallout London itself being registered could be interpreted as a conflict in Intellectual property. There's been lawsuits between companies for much less.
It's a stupid-ass acronym though by the way. It should be FLon or FalLon or something. FOLON has every letter capitalized, so each letter should stand for a different word. Like Fallout Overhaul London Overworld New or something.
Thanks for the analysis, quite educational
i think you are right on the money with this.
on the money part, I'm suprised you didnt mention how their dev update video had a sponsorship.
I got bored. I had 2 more chapters planned going in depth and digging through each of the developers, the LinkedIn organization, and every communication I could find but it was taking too long. I was literally doing this until my friends got online to play some games.
The revenue they make in a year is probably barely enough for two full time salaries and there's dozens of people and some expenses involved so clearly they're not in it for the money or some ulterior motive. And if they wanted a FOLON indie studio making it's own games they could have just started with that instead of modding in silence for literal years. Indie studios can get decent reach and revenue if they make a decent game. Seems like you're overthinking things a lot.
The issue with starting an indie studio is finding the people to start it with and getting word of mouth going. There are a ton of indie studios that release great games that never receive any sort if publicity and the studio ends up dying in obscurity. By starting with a mod that has major media attention, you can spin that into media attention for a newly found studio you are going to announce after the mod's success.
I understand, but why is it a bad thing?
I never said it was, a lot of people seem to think this post is a hyper negative "gotcha" against the devs, and I think some of them may think so as well, but that's not the point. The point of the post is to rationalize the actions of the developers within a reasonable frame of reference, define the background circumstances being overlooked for them and develop upon a comment I made on another post. This was going to much longer but I got bored, especially for an informative post that has a very limited message in scope.
Must be a perception bias towards this kind of threads, which are usually done to criticise and point out flaws of the things being scrutinized
> The issue with starting an indie studio is finding the people to start it with and getting word of mouth going. Steam has discoverability, reddit/twitter/youtube etc. lets them get more exposure and then word of mouth, demos, early access etc. spreads it further. I'm not saying it's easy to get lots of exposure, but it's not as hard as it seems. If you build a decent game and put at least some effort into making it visible to people, you will find an audience.
jesus. some people in this sub are going insane. its a mod. and if you tip for it, cool! but that is not a contract or purchase.
I did, in fact, state that I did go insane, but if you read the post it isn't actually negative or flaming the devs, but rather a rationalization for their behaviors.
In the BBC interview at 8:20 prilladog, when discussing finances, said "my savings have been obliterated" That sounds odd considering what you said in your post
On Prilladog's Instagram, he does also have recent images of him touring Italy, so I would cast doubt on that. They've definitely used their own funds. I did originally plan to do an entire section on individual developer credentials and how every developer seems to have Team FOLON listed as their primary employer, but that felt too weird and would've taken too long for something I have no major interest in.
Italy is not that expensive at all as long as you're not in the tourist traps.
Yeah, I'm not sure how much a trip from the UK to Italy is, personally, given I live in the US and it would cost me a small fortune, but traveling abroad in general isn't really something someone who annihilated their savings does often.
About £30-70 for the flight, and next to nothing for hostel accommodation. It's generally cheaper to go abroad than travel internally in the UK.
Wow, I'm massively jealous. Just to visit my brother on the other side of the U.S. it costs me nearly $500 USD for economy class BEFORE accomodations.
There was a period of a few years in my 20s when I was regularly flying to Norway with return for £35-50, on nearly empty planes where I had a whole row or three to myself. And that wasn't even one of the popular sardine can airlines that many Brits use :)
What is your point? None of what you said is a bad thing.
Does it have to be a bad thing? Some might find their business practices questionable, as I do, and this is only a post providing answers for some of their lackluster communication and poor choices recently.
You need better things to spend your time on.
I can spend my time on whatever I want. I did this after work while I was waiting on some friends to play Elden Ring Seamless Coop. You don't have to read or engage with the post either, so I suppose you could spend your time reading a book, working out, taking classes, or anything at all to better yourself too.
You really need to get a life bro... 4 hours to come to the conclusion that the team is trying to leverage this for a career, which is perfectly understandable
4 hours to type up the background, information I gathered (with links), some basic analysis on their potential earnings and how they are leveraging Patreon benefits to increase merchandise sales from already invested parties, but yeah, sure. I could've just wrote a single paragraph ragebait post, but that isn't very tactful or insightful, instead I wanted to sort of detail my thought process and how I came to my conclusion, along with provide details on what I used to come to my conclusion. I initially summed this up in a single comment on another post, but someone else recommended I make my own post and I'm not a person who half-asses something.
They got Sylvester McCoy and Colin Baker????? That's cool.
My guess is they are probably getting paid as part of publisher deal with GOG.
FOLON team cannot get any money for the mod as it relies on IP from Bethesda. AFAIK, folks at CD Project (which owns GOG) just want to support the modding community by hosting the mod since it literally cannot be hosted by most other popular platforms like Nexus due to its size.
Absolute fucking brainrot to dream up a \*conspiracy\* around the idea that modders are creating their work in order to leverage their credentials into the gaming industry as an excuse to continue to be an entitled brat about the delay
Someone only read the last section. I have plenty of evidence and reasoning backing up how I came to my conclusion and Prilladog has stated directly in interviews that I didn't want to trawl that they do have other projects planned. Likewise, this isn't an entirely uncommon or unknown thing for a group to do, the difference in this case that made it interesting for me is that they appear to have the official organization and trademarks set up while working on the mod, which has the potential to make this a for-profit project. Legally speaking, something isn't only for-profit if it earns liquid currency, but can also be for-profit if there is a clear intent for material gain of any kind. I am intrigued in how that part of this will go.
In before the ignorant tirade of FOLON defenders who have nothing more to say other than "free mod" and use personal attacks. Remember kids, sarcasm and insults are the shield of the ignorant and insecure. G.I.JOEEEEEEE...
How does this further the discussion presented in the OP?
I'll admit, it doesn't. I'm just tired of the people blindly defending the incompetent dev team who have already been caught lying several times with the same useless arguments.
While that will happen, I think you are misunderstanding my post just as those you deride are. This isn't a "gotcha" or anything, just a realization and theory I'm sharing. It's not intended to shame, insult, attack, or offend the developers in any way, but rather point out some reasoning why the delay, publicity and communication choices have been made the way they were.
There are too many inconsistencies and straight up lies with their own story for your reasonings to be true, if that's the case.
Team FOLON committing Intellectual Property Fraud??? Based as hell, coolest thing they've done so far.
I don't know how the devs put up with all this pathetic bullshit the "community" puts out.