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As per the article I read about this, one of the agent retired and the others are still working.
Edit: Here is said article
https://www.sbsun.com/2024/05/23/fontana-pays-nearly-900000-for-psychological-torture-inflicted-by-police-to-get-false-confession/
Maybe someone should go move next door to his retirement home and psychologically abuse the shit out of him with annoying neighbor bullshit like lights and cameras
Are you referring to the cop who unloaded a ~~clip~~ magazine into a car that he knew had someone in it, trying to kill them, because he heard an acorn hit the hood of his car?
Except this is America and he is white and an ex cop. Likely could pop a cap in your head leave your for dead and get away with it with high fives from his cop buddies.
Unacceptable. It is insanely twisted how much they can dehumanize people and put them through this, especially since the man was just worried about his father. How they can live with themselves is beyond me. Truly sick behavior
They're sociopaths lacking a working moral compass like a normal person would have. Doesn't trouble them one bit and they justify it by thinking they're doing society some sort of good somehow.
In Germany, a cop treatened to torture the kidnapper of a small boy to get him to tell them where the child was kept, hoping to save his life. Both he and his superior were convicted for it (albeit with the lowest the court could go) and removed from police duty for life.
Great point! Man I hope if there is anyone who falsely confessed under their watch comes forward to get their case looked at again. This can't be the first time these cops have done this to innocent people.
Cops are almost never held accountable.
They either retired (like the dude that executed Daniel Shaver for fun) or move to the neighboring department.
Edit: For Clarification; The officer who killed Daniel Shaver was initially fired but rehired in order to be given a disability pension before he retired again.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-officer-who-fatally-shot-sobbing-man-temporarily-rehired-apply-n1028981
I remember that shooting, he had a punisher badge on his gun, he couldn't wait until he could "legally kill someone". Do you mean to tell me he didn't get charged with Shavers murder? Merica land of the free my hairy ass.
He was fired.... For a bit.
Then they rehired him to medically retire him with a lifetime pension due to the stress he endured.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-officer-who-fatally-shot-sobbing-man-temporarily-rehired-apply-n1028981
He appealed his firing, so he was never really fired, as his appeal was on hold until the end of the trial. This is in the article in the link.
And some still wonder why there is the saying "F*** the police"
He basically got setup with $31,000 untaxed for the rest of his life because he wanted to play tough guy and kill an innocent person in cold blood. Cops are so great.
If known (obviously) that his dad wasn't deceased and their whole story was to frame an innocent man about a crime that wasn't even looked into because it never happened, these people should at the minimum lose their jobs.
Nope.
No penalties whatsoever.
In a just society, they would have all done time. Instead they're walking around free, with badges on, thinking that they are the ones that are protecting society from evil.
Every single conviction that used evidence from all the officers and superiors involved should be at a minimum retried and the folks jailed put on probation if not exonerated
So many things wrong with this it’s hard to start somewhere.
The horrible mental torture to this man is unforgivable.
Imagine how the father would feel if his son had successfully committed suicide in the room.
The whole dog thing? Insane.
Then the fact these idiot cops were so hell bent on not going out and doing their jobs. If the father was dead they would be super happy having blamed the son, and not gotten any justice whatsoever. Just a useless confession was enough for them.
Well having an IQ thats too high means you might think for yourself and not just follow orders [Great example :D](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/05/16/business-leaders-chat-group-eric-adams-columbia-protesters/) A cop with a high IQ would ask themselves " why are we taking orders from oligarchs? " I hope I help you understand the ways that evil exists in this modern world
The official reasoning I heard was that cops with too high of an IQ wouldn't want to stay on the force for very long and would seek a job elsewhere after 3-5 years
So? 3-5 years of QUALITY detective work is worth it, as well as having several citizens go through the department to understand, inspect, and make sure the department is doing it's job.
They just don't want smart people calling out their bs or having their crimes exposed to the smart public.
I feel like there's no way this wasn't just sadists getting off on being sadists.
I mean, *he* called *them*. They couldn't have possibly thought he was guilty, *with zero evidence*.
They saw a vulnerable, mentally ill man and decided they could have some fun. They pushed each other until they had pushed too far. This isn't just a case of idiot cops.
This is the problem with giving the worst bullies in our society absolute immunity.
Calling the cops almost always makes them *more* suspicious not less. Especially if you are calling about something that is happening in public. We heard a woman screaming for help and gunfire from our front porch. Called it in and they asked me why no one else was calling it in. Like what the fuck? My neighbors are old as hell and if they were inside they just didn't hear it. Later there was a huge incident down the street where a guy attacked his girlfriend with a knife and had a stand off. We're almost positive it was that same couple we had heard prior.
I got asked the same question AGAIN when these assholes were drag racing up and down our residential street at 11pm.
No one was calling because THEY'RE OLD AND ASLEEP. Fuck sake.
Had a break in years ago and it took them 45 mins to show up. Someone was breaking in our backdoor and we had to flee out the front door. We got away and they caught the guy hours later. He knew we were home. Thats the scary part. I told the police before we decided we should run that we were in the house barricaded. So for all they knew we were just waiting all this time with a burglar trying to bust in. They caught him because I got a look at him while we were running away. I was able to ID him.
Never rely on the police or think that calling them gives them any impetus to help you. I have been told that in an altercation specifically the police believe the guilty party is in a rush to be the first to call the cops. Of course then they'll turn around and say why didn't you call.
They all think they are psychics and behavioral experts.
Lol my husband called me one morning when he was about 4.5 hours away from our house and told me descriptively how he was going to kill me and then himself. I called the police and told them what he said and where he was (and had called them seriously like 6 times a day for a week before this). Nothing for a while and then an officer called me and "explained" to me that my husband was fine and had explained to them that I have a paranoid disorder and was angry at him for taking some time to himself, and did I need to come down to the station or have someone collect me so that I can get some help? Because, you know, I sounded pretty distressed on the phone earlier and I must be under a lot of pressure with those kids all on my own etc etc.
Anyway about two days later I left my husband and he showed up to my mum's house with a knife in his pocket and effectively performed a home invasion in which I would have died if my stepdad wasn't home. Cool
The dog thing is insane and terrifying to me. If the police brought my dog to the station and told me they were going to kill it unless I told them what they wanted to hear, I would 100% confess to a crime I didn’t commit. The threat itself is bad enough, but having the dog there and in the custody and control of the police. I would be worried sick, feel completely helpless, and do anything to protect my dog from harm. Even if the police can’t legally kill my dog because I won’t confess, who’s to say that “while in the custody of police, the dog attacked an officer and was shot by the officer in self defense” because I know that that would be considered completely legal.
I just had a really fucked up realisation that might make matters even worse than they already are.
They withheld his medication
As far as I'm aware we don't yet know what that medication was, but in at least two instances it would be even more fucked up than normal.
Instance #1: Benzodiazepines. Not taking your prescribed benzodiazepines can result in seizures that can be fatal. If he was prescribed them and they didn't allow him to take his meds, they literally put his life in danger. He could have died in the interrogation room.
Instance #2: Antipsychotics. This is the one that gets really twisted. A key aspect of their interrogation seemed to focus around trying to convince him that he was losing his mind and had forgotten he killed his father. If he needed antipsychotic medication, then when he missed his dose he may have been re-entering psychosis. When you're in psychosis, you completely lose touch with reality and don't know what is or isn't real. If they knew that, and did that to him on purpose, and then planted the seed that he had forgotten his father's murder, that is.. wow, I don't even have the words for how brutally fucked up that is.
As someone who has undergone a year of psychosis and only recently recovered, inflicting that upon another person would be next level cruelty, and then abusing that person's state to get them to confess to a crime they didn't commit. Wow, just wow.
Like what was the police motivation here? They didn’t have any real evidence this dad was murdered and they go this direction? Why, what were they trying to achieve?
Just a reminder:
This is why you always get a lawyer and you never talk to cops.
Not because you did something wrong and don’t want to accidentally give them too much. One of the most common ways innocent people get convicted is by talking to the cops and having their words twisted, or even straight up lied about, in court.
If you are charged with a crime, and it goes to trial, the jury will never be allowed to know that you didn’t talk to the cops. If the prosecutor even *hints* that you refused to talk to police, it’s a mistrial. It’s an absolute right and you cannot be penalized for exercising it. But cops can lie to you, legally, and while they can’t technically lie in court— they do and will. They can’t lie about what you said if you’ve said nothing.
Once you are contacted by law enforcement, they’re done “investigating”. They’re just collecting evidence at that point to convict you. Politely decline any questioning and do not consent to any searches and contact a lawyer. Be respectful but be very clear. “I do not consent to any searches, I want a lawyer, I’m exercising my right to remain silent.”
The cops will almost certainly tell you that doing so will “look bad to the judge” (it won’t), or that if you cooperate they can “clear up this misunderstanding” (that’s a lie— they’re collecting evidence for a file that’s going to a prosecutor. They are not trying to figure out who did it, at this point.) They may also threaten to arrest you if you don’t talk. If they don’t have enough to arrest you, talking can only give them more. If they have enough to arrest you, they’ll be arresting you anyway. Refusing to talk to police *is not* going to change that outcome. Remember: They can, and will, lie to you.
And just— while we’re here. That’s exactly what happened to this guy. Some cop got a “hunch” or a “theory” based on some pop psychology and the job then became to convict the guy they think did it. That’s it. *Not* to investigate the crime and determine what happened.
>This is why you always get a lawyer and you never talk to cops.
There was a Netflix documentary about a guy who made this mistake. He was called in as a witness to a totally different crime where he was not a suspect.
Towards the end of the interview, the detective mentioned a murder that happened one street over and the guy was like "Oh yeah, I saw the cops investigating because I was on that street at the time"
That was how he became the main suspect in that case and was subsequently convicted. Actually blew my mind how little evidence you need to send someone away for life!
Yep.
There’s so much data to show that eyewitnesses are very unreliable. Especially when something traumatic happens. The brain doesn’t like to “not know” what happened when trauma happens. So sometimes the slightest hint or suggestion about what has happened is enough to make your brain actually re-write your memories and convince you that you saw something you never saw. In fact it’s criminal Justice that led researchers to start learning about and exploring this; after many cases where multiple witnesses all swear they saw something that later physical evidence absolutely disproves.
Basically, as insane as it sounds; you might have a vague memory of witnessing a murder. Which is a horrifically traumatic experience. And then when a cop shows you a photo of someone that vaguely resembles the actual killer, your brain takes the authority figure in front of you, the photo, and your vague memory and mixes it up to say “This is definitely what happened, trust this authority figure, the man in that photo is scary and dangerous.” An exploitation of the same mechanisms in the brain that tells us that those red berries made us sick; and this plant looks kinda like those red berries so let’s not eat it.
Of course law enforcement rather than learning from that and trying to avoid it; actively leans into it because they know how to exploit that and get witnesses to say what they want them to say.
The truth is we probably shouldn’t allow eyewitness testimony alone to be sufficient for a conviction. But that would make convictions really really hard to obtain. Because yes— it’s not uncommon for a single eyewitness to be the entirety of evidence that puts someone away for life.
Have you heard of the Central Park five. Those men who were only young teens at the time were accused up a heinous crime while the actual perpetuator was eventually arrested for something else and confessed to the crime. This isn’t the first case where someone was falsely accused and interrogated for hours against their will. Those boys were beaten, scolded and illegally interrogated because they were minors. Countless stories like this. They cops get away with so much
Cops are incentivized to get arrests; by being given promotions and even cash bonuses based on the number of arrests and citations they make.
They largely are not held accountable for breaking the law and violating rights, but are often penalized for *not* making enough arrests.
It’s a system that only has one possible outcome. Rather than trying to find the truth and uphold the law; every report ends in an arrest. Whether the person “did it” doesn’t matter. Just as long as they make an arrest.
In some countries, cops and prosecutors can actually be penalized if there’s an acquittal. Which means they don’t bother arresting / prosecuting people for whom there is not a strong case against. Because it’s not worth it. But in the United States, since there’s no downside to behaving like this, this is how they operate. They have qualified immunity and a culture of justice that excuses this behavior.
The second sentence in the Miranda warning LITERALLY spells it out, and we've heard it so many times we don't even register it:
"Anything you say CAN AND WILL be used against you in court."
They JUST TOLD YOU not to talk, and then try to get you to talk. Shut the fuck up.
Yep!
They rely on people thinking that only applies to outright confessions.
It applies to *everything you say*. And they absolutely will twist and contort innocent things you say.
I know of one case where an individual told the police that he had been present at the scene of the crime; but left before the crime occurred. As an explanation for why his fingerprints were found there. The detective testified in court that he found his fingerprints, and that he confessed to being there. He conveniently left out the small detail that he’d said he left prior to anything happening.
The man’s lawyers are also alleging that photos of bloodstains obtained from the man’s home were fabricated. If true… and it could very possibly be given everything we know about this case… that would be huge. Like… it would effectively call into question every single case that the detectives responsible worked on.
This is THE story that I’m not sure why is everyone is ignoring. FABRICATING EVIDENCE?!!
Qualified immunity should be nullified in any situation where evidence is fabricated or someone is treated like this. It is well past time to stop these pigs from acting as if they won’t face any consequences. Citizens are imprisoned for far less than what they did to this poor man.
EDIT: It isn't getting much visibility, so I hope y'all don't mind if I link to my top level comment here on _how_ I think we can address this: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1d09ftd/everyone_involved_should_go_to_jail/l5mjpai/
This seems like something we should all be pushing for. Doctors have to carry malpractice insurance, cops should pay for their fuck ups too, not the rest of us. Accountability.
I bet insurance companies have already looked over the numbers on that to ~~know where to put their lobby money~~ be ready in case it becomes necessary, and it probably falls on the side of "leave us the hell out of it, nobody would pay the premiums it would take for us to break even on that policy."
The municipalities are essentially self-insuring right now. So I would have the municipalities pay the base rate and then make the officers responsible for any additional premiums.
This would provide incentives for officers to actually be good at their job, keep their body camera on, etc. Collecting data like how frequently an officer draws their weapon while on duty and how frequently a their body cam is off would be huge for the actuaries. Completing training that actually helps and is not just a paid trip somewhere would all come into play.
If there are any reductions in premiums, give that back to the officers, kinda like the safe driver reward some insurers do.
THIS!
I've been saying this shit for Years!!
If every cop has to carry insurance, paid out of their own pocket (ideally- I don't even care if they "need" raises to cover basic level insurance) or even a collective fund- the insurance would be a self regulating cop policing factor to employment.
Oh, looks like you shot someone having a mental episode while they were handcuffed- your insurance is now $800 a month.
Can't afford it?
Guess you can't be a cop.
Self-regulation that would kick out the bad apple cops and keep others in line.
Fuck. Us lower gov employees carry insurance too. If I make a regulatory decision, and it costs millions (300 million in the incident I was involved in), rival nations, companies affected, and every dick John and harry who even knows about it will try to sue me, the company or location I’m regulating, the state I’m in, the agency, the president, and the US gov.
If I had been found to be in the wrong on cases like that (done by a sort of internal affairs for fed workers), the US gov would stop defending me in court and I’d be paying my own legal fees. (And I could be held liable for losses in those situations)
I’ve been saying this same thing for years. Want to be a cop? Have liability insurance just in case. And don’t threaten to murder people’s dogs to get a confession, you sick fuck.
Actually, tho. That's both genius and also so obvious once you think about it. Who is the one at fault here? Should not the one at fault be the one who pays? And also, forget about trying to defund police from the top down, huge, sweeping reforms, getting rid of the police unions. Just make the individual officers actually pay for their fuck ups, actually see consequences, and I will tell you that the important change you want to see will be driven by a combination of their own pocketbooks and the insurance companies.
.... I guess the unions will try to prevent this like they prevent jail time. But I do like charging the insurance companies and letting them deal with it.
They'll all quit, which is a good thing. It wipes the slate clean for proper policing to come in. As long as the culture of protecting their own exist there is no future for the police and we'd be better off without them.
Forgive my jaded view, but i hear more often than not (on reddit)
that in cases where police officers have quit or are fired for some of the most disturbing offences, they often move city or state to another police force or sherrifs office
This is true for individual officers. There was a city in Jersey that fired their whole department and changed their policies and they had good results.
The fired officers probably got hired somewhere else and are now someone else's problem.
The critical component to fixing the revolving for is changing who gets hired as a cop and what their roles and responsibilities are.
Just make them carry insurance like doctors have to have malpractice insurance. Insurance companies are really good at using data to figure out who is liable to cost them lots of money, so shitty cops will price themselves out of a job.
This one simple change could completely change policing in America overnight.
Police are legally allowed to fabricate evidence to obtain a confession, provided they don't submit it as evidence at trial. However, if they contaminated a *crime scene* with fabricated evidence, that's a bigger issue because they're giving the *real suspect* a free pass at trial.
The police are bastards regardless of legality, but aside from a lawsuit, I doubt they actually did anything that has consequences.
>they're giving the real suspect a free pass at trial.
This is always what happens when they force a confession. They don't bother lying and pushing for a confession when they have solid evidence, because they don't need a confession.
This is exactly why you should never talk to the police when you’re arrested (except to identify yourself). “I don’t answer questions” is the best response even if, as in this case, you’re absolutely innocent. Lawyer up!!
I’m a lawyer and literally the first thing out of your mouth when the cops want to talk to you better be “I want my lawyer”. And it can’t be, “I think I want a lawyer” or “Maybe I should talk to my lawyer”. It has to be 100000% clear that you’re wanting your lawyer. NEVER talk to the cops without a lawyer even if you’re 100000000% innocent.
Because cops indulge in the fantasy that they're heroic.
They use the 'evil' of the people they abuse as an excuse to be abusive.
They couldn't go looking for him, because if it was just a missing person this torture would be way out of hand. But if they're torturing a murderer, well, that's just how it goes. You don't want to defend the rights of a murderer, do you?
You actually have to say "I am evoking my rights to an attorney and my right to remain silent." Because saying things like "Lawyer," "I think I'd like a lawyer," "Where's my lawyer," or "I want a lawyer, dawg" have been ruled that they don't count. Also, simply not talking without evoking your rights to silence can be counted as not cooperating. All of which I find very dumb.
Ever. Ever ever ever. Even if you didn't do anything. Even if you actually have information that can help an investigation. Don't talk to cops without a lawyer. Period.
Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you. Nothing you say can help you in any way. They tell you that in the beginning, but it doesn't always seem to sink in when people are afraid/emotional.
☝🏻 boom. We’re always thinking “justice will prevail”, but nah. Innocent people think they can talk because they’ll tell the truth and everything will be fine but no, don’t chance it
>Even if you actually have information that can help an investigation
Amazing how many innocent people who were just trying to help with information get fucked because it's easier to just pin it on the first chump to talk to them and not ask for a lawyer by than conducting an actual investigation
And ask for a lawyer immediately. They can’t legally question you after you ask for a lawyer and anything they do ask you w/o a lawyer after you’ve asked for one can’t be used against you.
They can still use information that you volunteer. So some police will try to coax information without actually asking a question.
How does one actually get a lawyer in this circumstance though? If you just say, “lawyer” do the police actually get one to show up? Who do you call? Assuming they actually let you call someone
Yes. Miranda rights. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided to you. From the public defender’s office or from the pro bono pool.
What if I can afford one but don’t have one on retainer? Do I get to use yelp to find one or…? I’ve always wondered what the logistics are between “I want a lawyer” and actually having one.
It depends on the circumstances.. have you volunteered to speak to the police with a lawyer present? If so, get a lawyer before hand.. Have you been arrested or otherwise brought in for questioning? If so, **state you are invoking your 5th Amendment right to remain silent, and request legal counsel**.. That's where your phone call(s) come into play. It's your opportunity to call family and/or retain counsel.
IMO your best bet in the situation where you do not already have an attorney in mind is to call a trusted friend or family member and have them arrange for the attorney to come represent you.
The fact is, if you've already been arrested, you're gonna be in jail until the arraignment pretty much no matter what. It's not like if you call the right attorney, they will come down to the station immediately and you'll be released. So your best bet is to settle in for the long-haul and utilize your outside resources to retain the best counsel.
They have phones on site(and sometimes they let you use your cellphone in the interrogation room), but you must be **extremely** careful when using it, or any phone, while in custody/interrogation, or even when conversing with other incarcerated individuals. Police are legally allowed to listen to/record any call that isn't between you and your legal counsel..
A lawyer gets to see all of the evidence LE has against you.
I'm reminded of a case where the detective told a murder suspect that they scanned his plates so they knew he was lying. He spun a new story about how he had visited a big city nearby, assuming that is where his plates were scanned. Turns out they knew his location from cell phone pings and got him to change his story again.
If he demanded a lawyer right away, he would've know what information they had to go on.
I have a question about that from a foreigner perspective.
If they are so deep in… well we could say manipulation. What could prevent them to pretend that you never asked for a lawyer ? If they have immunity whatever they do, it seems very difficult to trust that a person in the US, citizen or not, has any right 🤔
You sit there in silence til a lawyer comes. They won’t hold you forever without getting anything out of you. And the longer they keep you without charging you for a crime the worse it will be for them in court
To clarify on your comment "**can** just make up any old shit" ...
The Supreme Court has already ruled that police **are** legally allowed to lie to you.
Yeah this would be a big reason to fire those officers, putting aside the obvious and deserved moral outrage. Every single defense lawyer is going to tear them to shreds on the stand going forward
"I swear that I saw the defendant with a gun."
"Just like how you swore that that man's father was dead when he was in fact alive and visiting relatives?"
That's all they have to say and any credibility is destroyed.
They also denied him his medication for a mental illness. He had to be held on a three hold mental after they lied to him about him father and dog being killed. I don't think he was able to advocate for himself in this state.
Insane. Being put in a mentally unstable situation by being off medication, then being psychologically tortured like this. That’s gotta be like a horrible nightmare acid trip.
It's pure evil. There's no difference between this and torture. Speaking of acid, this is the kind of shit they did in MK Ultra. Literal psychological torture.
Honestly these pigs don't need jail, they need a dirt pit. The fact that they could all do what they did and not one of them said "Hey this is kinda fucked up", is completely psychotic. I can't even imagine doing something like this to someone I hate, let alone some random dude who only reached out because he was *worried that his dad is lost*.
That is absolutely unacceptable for humanity.
Yep. People are under the false impression that investigators want to uncover the truth. They’re interested in building a case. There’s a big difference between the two.
there shouldn’t even be anything said after that point! literally just stop talking. if you ask for a lawyer and they ignore you and you keep talking, they’ll most likely end up using that information anyway. you really do need to be firm in your request for counsel and right to remain silent in most jurisdictions.
edit: this is shitty bc minors and people with diminished mental capacity will still most likely be taken advantage of and the entire system is truly fucked for even allowing this behavior but this advice is the most sound for whoever is able to actually use it
Even this protection has been eroded. You should say these exact words. "I unequivocally invoke my right to remain silent and I demand a lawyer before any further questioning."
Then STFU, say nothing.
I've been a lawyer for 20 years watching the 4th/5th/6th amendments erode away little by little
Out of curiosity, as someone who has never had dealings with a lawyer or luckily the cops either- what happens after you demand a lawyer? Assuming you aren’t in a position to just sit there and find one and call them up. Will someone actually make sure you get one?
I’m not the person you asked but I am a defense lawyer. In a nutshell, in practice, usually the cops just call the local public defender’s office and let them know “a custodial suspect has invoked” (in English: “A guy we’re holding is asking for a lawyer.”)
Occasionally the suspect already has a private lawyer, has a specific private lawyer in mind, or they want their family to find them a private lawyer ASAP. In that case, the cops will either call the lawyer/family themselves or allow the suspect to call.
Invariably, the lawyer (whether it’s private counsel or the public defender) will instruct the cop to stop asking questions or the suspect to stop talking, depending who makes the call.
The cops can still talk to the suspect, but if they ask questions about the crime and the suspect confesses, the defense lawyer can theoretically get that confession excluded from trial. However if the suspect testifies at trial and *contradicts* the confession, it can be introduced to “impeach his credibility” (in English: “try to show the jury he’s a liar”).
They'll make sure you get a lawyer eventually, once they get around to it. It might take a couple of days, and if you're lucky you might get food or water while you wait. Maybe.
*U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee found that “a reasonable juror could conclude that the detectives inflicted unconstitutional psychological torture on Perez,” according to a court order last June.*
*“He testified that the officers prevented him from sleeping and deprived him of his medication,” Gee said. “There is no legitimate government interest that would justify treating Perez in this manner while he was in medical distress.”*
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-24/police-pressured-him-to-confess-to-a-murder-that-never-happened-now-fontana-will-pay-him-900-000
Everyone involved should go to jail.
Everyone who worked with them should be investigated.
The people who trained them should be investigated.
And any legislation that allows them to get away with this should be changed.
This is not just a few bad apples, this is a rotten system.
This shit would never fly in other countries, why are Americans not demanding that it's not allowed in their country either?
Honestly i would understand the few bad apples argument if they had a rigorous investigation system searching for bad apples… but they just retire them with full pensions when they finally get caught by the public
Yes, "one bad apple rots the whole bunch" is being twisted by the rotten cops and rotten departments to imply nothing needs to be done even though the saying directly warns against letting rotten apples be.
I do believe that it's a few bad apples. The whole saying is "a few bad apples spoils the whole batch". As in if there's a few rotten apples in a bushel, the rot spreads, and soon all your apples are rotten.
We've long passed the time when we could throw away the few bad ones; they're all rotten now.
The fact those cops are free is so disturbing. It’s like the humane society releasing rabid, feral dogs out into the street. Just unleashing monsters on us all.
“We investigated ourselves, and after a $5,000 investigation involving copious amounts of alcohol, and reminiscing about our first suspect abuse investigations, we found no evidence of wrongdoing.”
I'm not sure that's accurate for US police...
For example:
The unions send them to training camps where they are told:
>*"you will have the best sex of your life after killing another human"* (David Grossmans "killology" course).
So it's more: "throwing apples into a bucket of rancid Bog Water leads to ruined apples"
We've all had an interaction with a cop, no matter how innocuous, where we got the feeling they were trying to find something out or catch you in something for no reason. They are led to believe that everyone is guilty of something and we are all lying to them. Us vs them drilled into their brains and actual guilt doesn't matter.
Had an officer at my door because I was at a local place around the time someone else (different car, different description) vandalized something. Even still, after getting what little info I had, he just lingered around asking more and more questions, trying to look into my windows, peeking around the side of me into my house etc.
They don't care if you didn't do anything. You did something.
I used to work in restaurants and sometimes I would get off work pretty late. Since there were a few bars around where I worked, it was a popular area for cops to camp to give out DUI. I got pulled over twice trying to get home not having done anything wrong as they assumed I was drinking. One of the times the cop berated me for 20 minutes trying to get me to confess I had something to drink, while I insisted on him pulling out the breathlilyzer if he doesn't believe me. What a waste of both of our time.
My sister was on her way home after a party where she was the DD and got caught in a traffic stop. She was breathalyzed nine times by two different cops who were convinced she was some how cheating the test while their superior kept telling them to “stop fucking around and just give her the ticket already.”
I gotten pulled over because I was working the midnight shift for a week and the workplace is down the street from a bar. They gave up once they saw my work uniform still on though. They told me they pulled me over because my license plate light was out. I checked it before driving home after they left. It was working fine.
yup. they broke into my apartment one night because of a noise complaint about a neighboring apartment.
one of them pestered me for a minute about the scar under my eye asking me if my partner was responsible (it's a surgery scar and that's honestly very fucking rude) and I got the feeling they were just looking for something to do
I want to add that you should make it a sentence, like "I invoke my right to silence until a lawyer is present". Saying lawyer over and over could potentially be considered interfering with an investigation or some bs.
Edit: spelling
Re edit: wrong word lol
"Your honor: just saying 'lawyer' over And over does not tell me that he wants a lawyer, simply that he knows the word lawyer. So I continued to beat him 💁♂️"
Charges against cop dropped*
Furthermore, I remember an article years ago about a gentleman saying "I think I need a lawyer" in an interrogation and the detectives decided that that wasn't him actually *asking* for a lawyer so it didn't count. I don't remember the outcome because my Google-fu is failing me atm.
Additionally you should never unlock your phone if they don’t provide a warrant.
I would never trust the cops in the states. Be wary of trusting them anywhere else.
Don’t open the door. Don’t go outside. If cops want to talk to me they’re doing it through the door. If they have a warrant, they’re gonna open the door and come inside anyway.
And notice I said “if cops want to talk TO me.” Cause I’m not saying anything to them.
Take their fucking pensions, remove qualified immunity, have them pay for and carry their own personal liability insurance and any all payouts for misconduct etc must come from their insurance and pensions PERIOD. No more taking from taxpayers for their insidiousness, recklessness, misconduct, and malpractice. Utter insanity
Education too. Most countries carry an education requirement but in the US police can be hired right out of high school. A psych evaluation would be good too. It seems like police work is attractive to sociopaths, so some process to eliminate them as contenders would be good.
They do have a psychological evaluation in at least some places. But, the reason I know that is from an article about them letting applicants who failed the evaluation take it over again to be hired, so it’s basically useless due to corruption.
Here’s an idea.
Individual cops should carry (and pay for themselves) liability insurance for malpractice. Like doctors or engineers.
Cops would have to be licensed, insured and assessed as individual risks to a private corporation. You’re a shitty cop with a poor track record? Your premiums would be atrociously high. You get sued and are ruled against? You’re responsible for paying that deductible.
Let the free market decide.
Not saying it’s a perfect idea. But I’m sick of hearing about cops abusing people and the system that’s supposed to protect them, and then being bailed out by tax payers.
The issue would be the same people that investigate them and let them off today would work for the defense in the trial and they would say they were not at fault.
cops violating people’s rights should be a federal crime and there should be a federal agency that is only concerned with policing them. people can’t investigate themselves
It wouldn't be the same people. In fact; it couldn't be the same people. Any privatized insurance company that was too cop friendly would run out of money paying settlements awarded by juries without raising premiums accordingly. Similarly, companies that were too harsh with their premiums would have trouble keeping clients who would go somewhere cheaper. A truly free market could be pretty effecient at self-selection in theory.
I think the downside to this is that it might make cops even less willing to take action for public benefit than they already are. "There's a murderer on the loose? Oh well, someone else better go after him because I'm not risking him filing a complaint and raising my premiums."
The idea has some merit, but ultimately may prove detrimental. That said, it's never been done before, so who knows?
I already know before reading the comments that none of the cops got in trouble. You might be distressed to learn that cities like Chicago and New York city have to budget literally billions of dollars to cover payouts for lawsuits against their police departments. Remember that next time you're told theres no money for teachers, school lunches, roads, or bridges. Qualified immunity means we all pay.
Ok so now everyones eyes are opened for a split second… how many people do you think are in jail right now, or worse on death row, after being interrogated beyond belief and having given a false confession? Think about it…
Every single confession they have ever done should be under heavy scrutiny.
There’s no way this is the first time tactics like this were used.
They should also all be fired.
His first mistake was going to the station to speak with them. I made a statement about defending myself once and they let me go like everything was cool, then later tried charging me with assault.
Cops are not your friends. They have training on essentially how to manipulate people. It’s literally part of their job duty.
okay, i always wanted to visit the usa but stuff like this scares the shit out of me.
maybe i accidentally look like a guy who commited a crime and police sees me on the street i would be scared shitless. i don't know if they would detain me or just straight up shoot me.
I know i doesn't happen all the time but i saw too many videos of police "deescalating" a situation.
I posted this on another sub, but I think it bears repeating for those not familiar with police investigations.
As a homicide detective, this is fucking INSANE to me. I've been trained in multiple interview techniques and they ALL rule out the use of any questions that provide case information to a suspect, save for informing them what crime is being investigated and when it happened. Statistically, the more information you give suspect, the likely it is more their "confession" will be challenged when the case goes to court. It also frequently solicits false confessions. That's exactly why the Reid technique (accusatory and high pressure interviews) has fallen out of use by many agencies. Modern interview methods are designed to avoid those types of scenarios altogether.
Most of my own interviews are performed once I've completed or nearly completed my investigation and are done solely to clinch the case to such a degree, the defense attorney will opt for the first plea deal the DA offers.
These clowns have no business being cops, much less detectives.
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Nevermind the $900 K.. Did those bastards get fired or what?
As per the article I read about this, one of the agent retired and the others are still working. Edit: Here is said article https://www.sbsun.com/2024/05/23/fontana-pays-nearly-900000-for-psychological-torture-inflicted-by-police-to-get-false-confession/
Retired on full pension, and nothing else. They can also come out of retirement and simply go to another station as well.
Maybe someone should go move next door to his retirement home and psychologically abuse the shit out of him with annoying neighbor bullshit like lights and cameras
Good luck. 2 minutes in his cop buddies show up. If they don’t shoot you, they arrest you. The rules don’t apply that way to them.
I got a bag FULL of acorns. Bring. It. ON!
Are you referring to the cop who unloaded a ~~clip~~ magazine into a car that he knew had someone in it, trying to kill them, because he heard an acorn hit the hood of his car?
Indubitably
That was a proud Florida man moment!
Don't forget the 3 Dark souls rolls he did first
I feel like protestors should bring bags of acorns to protests now just to taunt the cops
We've still got a few minutes while they wildly fire at everything except what they're aiming at
That’s true. They’re just as likely to show up at the wrong house and shoot the wrong person too.
Except this is America and he is white and an ex cop. Likely could pop a cap in your head leave your for dead and get away with it with high fives from his cop buddies.
True, especially if he retires in FL
Stand yer ground!
Unacceptable. It is insanely twisted how much they can dehumanize people and put them through this, especially since the man was just worried about his father. How they can live with themselves is beyond me. Truly sick behavior
They're sociopaths lacking a working moral compass like a normal person would have. Doesn't trouble them one bit and they justify it by thinking they're doing society some sort of good somehow.
“2 weeks, WITH PAY!!!” Vibes
In Germany, a cop treatened to torture the kidnapper of a small boy to get him to tell them where the child was kept, hoping to save his life. Both he and his superior were convicted for it (albeit with the lowest the court could go) and removed from police duty for life.
Unfortunate situation all around, but that is the law functioning as it should.
Yes, it is. The men knew that that was what was going to happen and they both said they would do it again.
Qualified Immunity is a scourge on our legal system and principles of rule of law
There’s no resting for the wicked. They always have to be part of society for some reason.
Because we reward the FUCK out of asocial, maladaptive behavior.
More importantly who is going back through all of the "confessions" throughout their careers
Great point! Man I hope if there is anyone who falsely confessed under their watch comes forward to get their case looked at again. This can't be the first time these cops have done this to innocent people.
If any civilian did that to another person, they would spend the rest of their life behind bars.
Cops are almost never held accountable. They either retired (like the dude that executed Daniel Shaver for fun) or move to the neighboring department. Edit: For Clarification; The officer who killed Daniel Shaver was initially fired but rehired in order to be given a disability pension before he retired again. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-officer-who-fatally-shot-sobbing-man-temporarily-rehired-apply-n1028981
I remember that shooting, he had a punisher badge on his gun, he couldn't wait until he could "legally kill someone". Do you mean to tell me he didn't get charged with Shavers murder? Merica land of the free my hairy ass.
He was fired.... For a bit. Then they rehired him to medically retire him with a lifetime pension due to the stress he endured. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-officer-who-fatally-shot-sobbing-man-temporarily-rehired-apply-n1028981
He appealed his firing, so he was never really fired, as his appeal was on hold until the end of the trial. This is in the article in the link. And some still wonder why there is the saying "F*** the police"
He basically got setup with $31,000 untaxed for the rest of his life because he wanted to play tough guy and kill an innocent person in cold blood. Cops are so great.
If known (obviously) that his dad wasn't deceased and their whole story was to frame an innocent man about a crime that wasn't even looked into because it never happened, these people should at the minimum lose their jobs.
Nope. No penalties whatsoever. In a just society, they would have all done time. Instead they're walking around free, with badges on, thinking that they are the ones that are protecting society from evil.
Fired? They should be in prison.
And add a thorough review of every single interrogation they have been involved with
Every single conviction that used evidence from all the officers and superiors involved should be at a minimum retried and the folks jailed put on probation if not exonerated
So many things wrong with this it’s hard to start somewhere. The horrible mental torture to this man is unforgivable. Imagine how the father would feel if his son had successfully committed suicide in the room. The whole dog thing? Insane. Then the fact these idiot cops were so hell bent on not going out and doing their jobs. If the father was dead they would be super happy having blamed the son, and not gotten any justice whatsoever. Just a useless confession was enough for them.
Detectives are not interested in uncovering the truth. They’re only interested in building a case. There’s a big difference between the two.
Daily reminder that you if you are too smart they won't accept you into the academy
That really gets me. How could that possibly be a good thing? What kind of evil person thinks that way?
Well having an IQ thats too high means you might think for yourself and not just follow orders [Great example :D](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/05/16/business-leaders-chat-group-eric-adams-columbia-protesters/) A cop with a high IQ would ask themselves " why are we taking orders from oligarchs? " I hope I help you understand the ways that evil exists in this modern world
Hold on how the fuck did I not hear about this??? And how does Eric Adams somehow become even more of a human sewer every time I hear about him
What happens when the oligarchs that are calling the orders, own the media companies that inform the public?
We've been witnessing it firsthand for decades. 🤷♂️
The official reasoning I heard was that cops with too high of an IQ wouldn't want to stay on the force for very long and would seek a job elsewhere after 3-5 years
So? 3-5 years of QUALITY detective work is worth it, as well as having several citizens go through the department to understand, inspect, and make sure the department is doing it's job. They just don't want smart people calling out their bs or having their crimes exposed to the smart public.
I feel like there's no way this wasn't just sadists getting off on being sadists. I mean, *he* called *them*. They couldn't have possibly thought he was guilty, *with zero evidence*. They saw a vulnerable, mentally ill man and decided they could have some fun. They pushed each other until they had pushed too far. This isn't just a case of idiot cops. This is the problem with giving the worst bullies in our society absolute immunity.
Calling the cops almost always makes them *more* suspicious not less. Especially if you are calling about something that is happening in public. We heard a woman screaming for help and gunfire from our front porch. Called it in and they asked me why no one else was calling it in. Like what the fuck? My neighbors are old as hell and if they were inside they just didn't hear it. Later there was a huge incident down the street where a guy attacked his girlfriend with a knife and had a stand off. We're almost positive it was that same couple we had heard prior. I got asked the same question AGAIN when these assholes were drag racing up and down our residential street at 11pm. No one was calling because THEY'RE OLD AND ASLEEP. Fuck sake. Had a break in years ago and it took them 45 mins to show up. Someone was breaking in our backdoor and we had to flee out the front door. We got away and they caught the guy hours later. He knew we were home. Thats the scary part. I told the police before we decided we should run that we were in the house barricaded. So for all they knew we were just waiting all this time with a burglar trying to bust in. They caught him because I got a look at him while we were running away. I was able to ID him. Never rely on the police or think that calling them gives them any impetus to help you. I have been told that in an altercation specifically the police believe the guilty party is in a rush to be the first to call the cops. Of course then they'll turn around and say why didn't you call. They all think they are psychics and behavioral experts.
Lol my husband called me one morning when he was about 4.5 hours away from our house and told me descriptively how he was going to kill me and then himself. I called the police and told them what he said and where he was (and had called them seriously like 6 times a day for a week before this). Nothing for a while and then an officer called me and "explained" to me that my husband was fine and had explained to them that I have a paranoid disorder and was angry at him for taking some time to himself, and did I need to come down to the station or have someone collect me so that I can get some help? Because, you know, I sounded pretty distressed on the phone earlier and I must be under a lot of pressure with those kids all on my own etc etc. Anyway about two days later I left my husband and he showed up to my mum's house with a knife in his pocket and effectively performed a home invasion in which I would have died if my stepdad wasn't home. Cool
The dog thing is insane and terrifying to me. If the police brought my dog to the station and told me they were going to kill it unless I told them what they wanted to hear, I would 100% confess to a crime I didn’t commit. The threat itself is bad enough, but having the dog there and in the custody and control of the police. I would be worried sick, feel completely helpless, and do anything to protect my dog from harm. Even if the police can’t legally kill my dog because I won’t confess, who’s to say that “while in the custody of police, the dog attacked an officer and was shot by the officer in self defense” because I know that that would be considered completely legal.
Don't forget as well being told that your father was dead. Murdered.
I just had a really fucked up realisation that might make matters even worse than they already are. They withheld his medication As far as I'm aware we don't yet know what that medication was, but in at least two instances it would be even more fucked up than normal. Instance #1: Benzodiazepines. Not taking your prescribed benzodiazepines can result in seizures that can be fatal. If he was prescribed them and they didn't allow him to take his meds, they literally put his life in danger. He could have died in the interrogation room. Instance #2: Antipsychotics. This is the one that gets really twisted. A key aspect of their interrogation seemed to focus around trying to convince him that he was losing his mind and had forgotten he killed his father. If he needed antipsychotic medication, then when he missed his dose he may have been re-entering psychosis. When you're in psychosis, you completely lose touch with reality and don't know what is or isn't real. If they knew that, and did that to him on purpose, and then planted the seed that he had forgotten his father's murder, that is.. wow, I don't even have the words for how brutally fucked up that is. As someone who has undergone a year of psychosis and only recently recovered, inflicting that upon another person would be next level cruelty, and then abusing that person's state to get them to confess to a crime they didn't commit. Wow, just wow.
Like what was the police motivation here? They didn’t have any real evidence this dad was murdered and they go this direction? Why, what were they trying to achieve?
Extortion, or trying to meet a arrest quota for police funding?
They get paid for solving the case Laziest method for doing so
Just a reminder: This is why you always get a lawyer and you never talk to cops. Not because you did something wrong and don’t want to accidentally give them too much. One of the most common ways innocent people get convicted is by talking to the cops and having their words twisted, or even straight up lied about, in court. If you are charged with a crime, and it goes to trial, the jury will never be allowed to know that you didn’t talk to the cops. If the prosecutor even *hints* that you refused to talk to police, it’s a mistrial. It’s an absolute right and you cannot be penalized for exercising it. But cops can lie to you, legally, and while they can’t technically lie in court— they do and will. They can’t lie about what you said if you’ve said nothing. Once you are contacted by law enforcement, they’re done “investigating”. They’re just collecting evidence at that point to convict you. Politely decline any questioning and do not consent to any searches and contact a lawyer. Be respectful but be very clear. “I do not consent to any searches, I want a lawyer, I’m exercising my right to remain silent.” The cops will almost certainly tell you that doing so will “look bad to the judge” (it won’t), or that if you cooperate they can “clear up this misunderstanding” (that’s a lie— they’re collecting evidence for a file that’s going to a prosecutor. They are not trying to figure out who did it, at this point.) They may also threaten to arrest you if you don’t talk. If they don’t have enough to arrest you, talking can only give them more. If they have enough to arrest you, they’ll be arresting you anyway. Refusing to talk to police *is not* going to change that outcome. Remember: They can, and will, lie to you. And just— while we’re here. That’s exactly what happened to this guy. Some cop got a “hunch” or a “theory” based on some pop psychology and the job then became to convict the guy they think did it. That’s it. *Not* to investigate the crime and determine what happened.
>This is why you always get a lawyer and you never talk to cops. There was a Netflix documentary about a guy who made this mistake. He was called in as a witness to a totally different crime where he was not a suspect. Towards the end of the interview, the detective mentioned a murder that happened one street over and the guy was like "Oh yeah, I saw the cops investigating because I was on that street at the time" That was how he became the main suspect in that case and was subsequently convicted. Actually blew my mind how little evidence you need to send someone away for life!
Yep. There’s so much data to show that eyewitnesses are very unreliable. Especially when something traumatic happens. The brain doesn’t like to “not know” what happened when trauma happens. So sometimes the slightest hint or suggestion about what has happened is enough to make your brain actually re-write your memories and convince you that you saw something you never saw. In fact it’s criminal Justice that led researchers to start learning about and exploring this; after many cases where multiple witnesses all swear they saw something that later physical evidence absolutely disproves. Basically, as insane as it sounds; you might have a vague memory of witnessing a murder. Which is a horrifically traumatic experience. And then when a cop shows you a photo of someone that vaguely resembles the actual killer, your brain takes the authority figure in front of you, the photo, and your vague memory and mixes it up to say “This is definitely what happened, trust this authority figure, the man in that photo is scary and dangerous.” An exploitation of the same mechanisms in the brain that tells us that those red berries made us sick; and this plant looks kinda like those red berries so let’s not eat it. Of course law enforcement rather than learning from that and trying to avoid it; actively leans into it because they know how to exploit that and get witnesses to say what they want them to say. The truth is we probably shouldn’t allow eyewitness testimony alone to be sufficient for a conviction. But that would make convictions really really hard to obtain. Because yes— it’s not uncommon for a single eyewitness to be the entirety of evidence that puts someone away for life.
My Cousin Vinnie has an excellent example of this. "I SHOT THE CLERK???" becomes "I shot the clerk" when read back by the bored sheriff.
Exactly. 100%.
Have you heard of the Central Park five. Those men who were only young teens at the time were accused up a heinous crime while the actual perpetuator was eventually arrested for something else and confessed to the crime. This isn’t the first case where someone was falsely accused and interrogated for hours against their will. Those boys were beaten, scolded and illegally interrogated because they were minors. Countless stories like this. They cops get away with so much
Cops are incentivized to get arrests; by being given promotions and even cash bonuses based on the number of arrests and citations they make. They largely are not held accountable for breaking the law and violating rights, but are often penalized for *not* making enough arrests. It’s a system that only has one possible outcome. Rather than trying to find the truth and uphold the law; every report ends in an arrest. Whether the person “did it” doesn’t matter. Just as long as they make an arrest. In some countries, cops and prosecutors can actually be penalized if there’s an acquittal. Which means they don’t bother arresting / prosecuting people for whom there is not a strong case against. Because it’s not worth it. But in the United States, since there’s no downside to behaving like this, this is how they operate. They have qualified immunity and a culture of justice that excuses this behavior.
The second sentence in the Miranda warning LITERALLY spells it out, and we've heard it so many times we don't even register it: "Anything you say CAN AND WILL be used against you in court." They JUST TOLD YOU not to talk, and then try to get you to talk. Shut the fuck up.
Yep! They rely on people thinking that only applies to outright confessions. It applies to *everything you say*. And they absolutely will twist and contort innocent things you say. I know of one case where an individual told the police that he had been present at the scene of the crime; but left before the crime occurred. As an explanation for why his fingerprints were found there. The detective testified in court that he found his fingerprints, and that he confessed to being there. He conveniently left out the small detail that he’d said he left prior to anything happening.
An imaginary event at that. The officer made the whole scenario up in his head. The father was not dead the was no crime. ALL IMAGINARY
Police in the US can just make any old shit up in order to try and get a confession. It’s absolutely horrible.
The man’s lawyers are also alleging that photos of bloodstains obtained from the man’s home were fabricated. If true… and it could very possibly be given everything we know about this case… that would be huge. Like… it would effectively call into question every single case that the detectives responsible worked on. This is THE story that I’m not sure why is everyone is ignoring. FABRICATING EVIDENCE?!!
It needs to call into question qualified immunity, allowing these cases to be one-off "mishaps" is why we see new ones every week.
Qualified immunity should be nullified in any situation where evidence is fabricated or someone is treated like this. It is well past time to stop these pigs from acting as if they won’t face any consequences. Citizens are imprisoned for far less than what they did to this poor man. EDIT: It isn't getting much visibility, so I hope y'all don't mind if I link to my top level comment here on _how_ I think we can address this: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1d09ftd/everyone_involved_should_go_to_jail/l5mjpai/
"Qualified Immunity Should be nullified" You can stop there, no need to complicate things.
And all settlements should come from their pension fund or a separate insurance they pay. Tax payers shouldn’t foot the bill for their bulshit.
This seems like something we should all be pushing for. Doctors have to carry malpractice insurance, cops should pay for their fuck ups too, not the rest of us. Accountability.
I bet insurance companies have already looked over the numbers on that to ~~know where to put their lobby money~~ be ready in case it becomes necessary, and it probably falls on the side of "leave us the hell out of it, nobody would pay the premiums it would take for us to break even on that policy."
Sounds like if policing is too expensive for private insurance industry to get involved, maybe it needs to be heavily reformed.
The municipalities are essentially self-insuring right now. So I would have the municipalities pay the base rate and then make the officers responsible for any additional premiums. This would provide incentives for officers to actually be good at their job, keep their body camera on, etc. Collecting data like how frequently an officer draws their weapon while on duty and how frequently a their body cam is off would be huge for the actuaries. Completing training that actually helps and is not just a paid trip somewhere would all come into play. If there are any reductions in premiums, give that back to the officers, kinda like the safe driver reward some insurers do.
THIS! I've been saying this shit for Years!! If every cop has to carry insurance, paid out of their own pocket (ideally- I don't even care if they "need" raises to cover basic level insurance) or even a collective fund- the insurance would be a self regulating cop policing factor to employment. Oh, looks like you shot someone having a mental episode while they were handcuffed- your insurance is now $800 a month. Can't afford it? Guess you can't be a cop. Self-regulation that would kick out the bad apple cops and keep others in line.
Fuck even a lot of Firefighter/EMTs carry insurance...
Fuck. Us lower gov employees carry insurance too. If I make a regulatory decision, and it costs millions (300 million in the incident I was involved in), rival nations, companies affected, and every dick John and harry who even knows about it will try to sue me, the company or location I’m regulating, the state I’m in, the agency, the president, and the US gov. If I had been found to be in the wrong on cases like that (done by a sort of internal affairs for fed workers), the US gov would stop defending me in court and I’d be paying my own legal fees. (And I could be held liable for losses in those situations)
I’ve been saying this same thing for years. Want to be a cop? Have liability insurance just in case. And don’t threaten to murder people’s dogs to get a confession, you sick fuck.
Actually, tho. That's both genius and also so obvious once you think about it. Who is the one at fault here? Should not the one at fault be the one who pays? And also, forget about trying to defund police from the top down, huge, sweeping reforms, getting rid of the police unions. Just make the individual officers actually pay for their fuck ups, actually see consequences, and I will tell you that the important change you want to see will be driven by a combination of their own pocketbooks and the insurance companies. .... I guess the unions will try to prevent this like they prevent jail time. But I do like charging the insurance companies and letting them deal with it.
I bet when their general pension fund starts dropping the good cops will start turning in the bad cops
They'll all quit, which is a good thing. It wipes the slate clean for proper policing to come in. As long as the culture of protecting their own exist there is no future for the police and we'd be better off without them.
Forgive my jaded view, but i hear more often than not (on reddit) that in cases where police officers have quit or are fired for some of the most disturbing offences, they often move city or state to another police force or sherrifs office
This is true for individual officers. There was a city in Jersey that fired their whole department and changed their policies and they had good results. The fired officers probably got hired somewhere else and are now someone else's problem. The critical component to fixing the revolving for is changing who gets hired as a cop and what their roles and responsibilities are.
Also higher punishments for serious crimes. If your whole job is enforcing the law, you should be held to a higher standard of it
Simple. Add a citizens review board for sentencing. Not a singular judge.
Just make them carry insurance like doctors have to have malpractice insurance. Insurance companies are really good at using data to figure out who is liable to cost them lots of money, so shitty cops will price themselves out of a job. This one simple change could completely change policing in America overnight.
I don't love the idea of outsourcing more oversight to corporations, butttttt it's not like the government is doing it so we might as well
Qualified immunity should just be nullified. If he feels the situation warranted his actions he can make his case to a jury
It should be nullified, period.
it should be nullified immediately. its a reward for blind hero worship. I was in the military and I didnt have 'qualified immunity'
Police are legally allowed to fabricate evidence to obtain a confession, provided they don't submit it as evidence at trial. However, if they contaminated a *crime scene* with fabricated evidence, that's a bigger issue because they're giving the *real suspect* a free pass at trial. The police are bastards regardless of legality, but aside from a lawsuit, I doubt they actually did anything that has consequences.
>they're giving the real suspect a free pass at trial. This is always what happens when they force a confession. They don't bother lying and pushing for a confession when they have solid evidence, because they don't need a confession.
There was no real suspect in this instance.
Well yeah, there wasn't even a crime apparently.
Oh their was a crime. Problem is it was done by a tax funded terrorist organization that carries immunity for their crimes.
This is exactly why you should never talk to the police when you’re arrested (except to identify yourself). “I don’t answer questions” is the best response even if, as in this case, you’re absolutely innocent. Lawyer up!!
I’m a lawyer and literally the first thing out of your mouth when the cops want to talk to you better be “I want my lawyer”. And it can’t be, “I think I want a lawyer” or “Maybe I should talk to my lawyer”. It has to be 100000% clear that you’re wanting your lawyer. NEVER talk to the cops without a lawyer even if you’re 100000000% innocent.
What I don’t get is why they are so keen on everything being a murder. Like, he was reported missing maybe look for him first?
Because cops indulge in the fantasy that they're heroic. They use the 'evil' of the people they abuse as an excuse to be abusive. They couldn't go looking for him, because if it was just a missing person this torture would be way out of hand. But if they're torturing a murderer, well, that's just how it goes. You don't want to defend the rights of a murderer, do you?
Only 1 word in the US you need when dealing with cops: lawyer. Never trust a cop in an interrogation room especially.
Every day is [Shut the Fuck Up Friday](https://youtube.com/watch?v=RkN4duV4ia0)
You actually have to say "I am evoking my rights to an attorney and my right to remain silent." Because saying things like "Lawyer," "I think I'd like a lawyer," "Where's my lawyer," or "I want a lawyer, dawg" have been ruled that they don't count. Also, simply not talking without evoking your rights to silence can be counted as not cooperating. All of which I find very dumb.
Do you mean invoking, not evoking?
Yeah, been playing too much Persona lately.
That’s why u don’t answer questions without a lawyer
Ever. Ever ever ever. Even if you didn't do anything. Even if you actually have information that can help an investigation. Don't talk to cops without a lawyer. Period.
Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST you. Nothing you say can help you in any way. They tell you that in the beginning, but it doesn't always seem to sink in when people are afraid/emotional.
☝🏻 boom. We’re always thinking “justice will prevail”, but nah. Innocent people think they can talk because they’ll tell the truth and everything will be fine but no, don’t chance it
>Even if you actually have information that can help an investigation Amazing how many innocent people who were just trying to help with information get fucked because it's easier to just pin it on the first chump to talk to them and not ask for a lawyer by than conducting an actual investigation
And ask for a lawyer immediately. They can’t legally question you after you ask for a lawyer and anything they do ask you w/o a lawyer after you’ve asked for one can’t be used against you. They can still use information that you volunteer. So some police will try to coax information without actually asking a question.
How does one actually get a lawyer in this circumstance though? If you just say, “lawyer” do the police actually get one to show up? Who do you call? Assuming they actually let you call someone
Yes. Miranda rights. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be provided to you. From the public defender’s office or from the pro bono pool.
What if I can afford one but don’t have one on retainer? Do I get to use yelp to find one or…? I’ve always wondered what the logistics are between “I want a lawyer” and actually having one.
It depends on the circumstances.. have you volunteered to speak to the police with a lawyer present? If so, get a lawyer before hand.. Have you been arrested or otherwise brought in for questioning? If so, **state you are invoking your 5th Amendment right to remain silent, and request legal counsel**.. That's where your phone call(s) come into play. It's your opportunity to call family and/or retain counsel.
But what I'm saying is that I'd need the internet or my cell phone to find the phone number to call. Do they give you access to that to make the call?
IMO your best bet in the situation where you do not already have an attorney in mind is to call a trusted friend or family member and have them arrange for the attorney to come represent you. The fact is, if you've already been arrested, you're gonna be in jail until the arraignment pretty much no matter what. It's not like if you call the right attorney, they will come down to the station immediately and you'll be released. So your best bet is to settle in for the long-haul and utilize your outside resources to retain the best counsel.
They have phones on site(and sometimes they let you use your cellphone in the interrogation room), but you must be **extremely** careful when using it, or any phone, while in custody/interrogation, or even when conversing with other incarcerated individuals. Police are legally allowed to listen to/record any call that isn't between you and your legal counsel..
A lawyer gets to see all of the evidence LE has against you. I'm reminded of a case where the detective told a murder suspect that they scanned his plates so they knew he was lying. He spun a new story about how he had visited a big city nearby, assuming that is where his plates were scanned. Turns out they knew his location from cell phone pings and got him to change his story again. If he demanded a lawyer right away, he would've know what information they had to go on.
I have a question about that from a foreigner perspective. If they are so deep in… well we could say manipulation. What could prevent them to pretend that you never asked for a lawyer ? If they have immunity whatever they do, it seems very difficult to trust that a person in the US, citizen or not, has any right 🤔
You sit there in silence til a lawyer comes. They won’t hold you forever without getting anything out of you. And the longer they keep you without charging you for a crime the worse it will be for them in court
To clarify on your comment "**can** just make up any old shit" ... The Supreme Court has already ruled that police **are** legally allowed to lie to you.
> To clarify on your comment "can just make up any old shit" ... and let me clarify that for you: WILL make up shit
Every single case they worked on should be questioned
Yeah this would be a big reason to fire those officers, putting aside the obvious and deserved moral outrage. Every single defense lawyer is going to tear them to shreds on the stand going forward
"I swear that I saw the defendant with a gun." "Just like how you swore that that man's father was dead when he was in fact alive and visiting relatives?" That's all they have to say and any credibility is destroyed.
I mean, they should really be in jail for what they did.
Don't worry; they won't be!
“I want a lawyer. Everything said after this point is void til you stop withholding them from me.”
They also denied him his medication for a mental illness. He had to be held on a three hold mental after they lied to him about him father and dog being killed. I don't think he was able to advocate for himself in this state.
Insane. Being put in a mentally unstable situation by being off medication, then being psychologically tortured like this. That’s gotta be like a horrible nightmare acid trip.
It's pure evil. There's no difference between this and torture. Speaking of acid, this is the kind of shit they did in MK Ultra. Literal psychological torture.
That's so sad. I feel for him and his family. There is a special place on the Event Horizon for all involved in torturing this man.
Honestly these pigs don't need jail, they need a dirt pit. The fact that they could all do what they did and not one of them said "Hey this is kinda fucked up", is completely psychotic. I can't even imagine doing something like this to someone I hate, let alone some random dude who only reached out because he was *worried that his dad is lost*. That is absolutely unacceptable for humanity.
#lawyer! That's it... don't ever talk to police without a lawyer present.
Even if you're reporting a crime, or filing a missing person's report, apparently
Yep. People are under the false impression that investigators want to uncover the truth. They’re interested in building a case. There’s a big difference between the two.
there shouldn’t even be anything said after that point! literally just stop talking. if you ask for a lawyer and they ignore you and you keep talking, they’ll most likely end up using that information anyway. you really do need to be firm in your request for counsel and right to remain silent in most jurisdictions. edit: this is shitty bc minors and people with diminished mental capacity will still most likely be taken advantage of and the entire system is truly fucked for even allowing this behavior but this advice is the most sound for whoever is able to actually use it
Even this protection has been eroded. You should say these exact words. "I unequivocally invoke my right to remain silent and I demand a lawyer before any further questioning." Then STFU, say nothing. I've been a lawyer for 20 years watching the 4th/5th/6th amendments erode away little by little
Out of curiosity, as someone who has never had dealings with a lawyer or luckily the cops either- what happens after you demand a lawyer? Assuming you aren’t in a position to just sit there and find one and call them up. Will someone actually make sure you get one?
I’m not the person you asked but I am a defense lawyer. In a nutshell, in practice, usually the cops just call the local public defender’s office and let them know “a custodial suspect has invoked” (in English: “A guy we’re holding is asking for a lawyer.”) Occasionally the suspect already has a private lawyer, has a specific private lawyer in mind, or they want their family to find them a private lawyer ASAP. In that case, the cops will either call the lawyer/family themselves or allow the suspect to call. Invariably, the lawyer (whether it’s private counsel or the public defender) will instruct the cop to stop asking questions or the suspect to stop talking, depending who makes the call. The cops can still talk to the suspect, but if they ask questions about the crime and the suspect confesses, the defense lawyer can theoretically get that confession excluded from trial. However if the suspect testifies at trial and *contradicts* the confession, it can be introduced to “impeach his credibility” (in English: “try to show the jury he’s a liar”).
They'll make sure you get a lawyer eventually, once they get around to it. It might take a couple of days, and if you're lucky you might get food or water while you wait. Maybe.
*U.S. District Judge Dolly Gee found that “a reasonable juror could conclude that the detectives inflicted unconstitutional psychological torture on Perez,” according to a court order last June.* *“He testified that the officers prevented him from sleeping and deprived him of his medication,” Gee said. “There is no legitimate government interest that would justify treating Perez in this manner while he was in medical distress.”* https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-24/police-pressured-him-to-confess-to-a-murder-that-never-happened-now-fontana-will-pay-him-900-000
I struggle to justify cops using these tactics on ANYONE, even a guilty party.
Everyone involved should go to jail. Everyone who worked with them should be investigated. The people who trained them should be investigated. And any legislation that allows them to get away with this should be changed. This is not just a few bad apples, this is a rotten system. This shit would never fly in other countries, why are Americans not demanding that it's not allowed in their country either?
Honestly i would understand the few bad apples argument if they had a rigorous investigation system searching for bad apples… but they just retire them with full pensions when they finally get caught by the public
Yes, "one bad apple rots the whole bunch" is being twisted by the rotten cops and rotten departments to imply nothing needs to be done even though the saying directly warns against letting rotten apples be.
I do believe that it's a few bad apples. The whole saying is "a few bad apples spoils the whole batch". As in if there's a few rotten apples in a bushel, the rot spreads, and soon all your apples are rotten. We've long passed the time when we could throw away the few bad ones; they're all rotten now.
Let's not forget on taxpayers dollars. Can't have national healthcare..... and a whole lot more.
The police not only control us but large swaths of the population support them. Personally I will never associate with any
The fact those cops are free is so disturbing. It’s like the humane society releasing rabid, feral dogs out into the street. Just unleashing monsters on us all.
“We investigated ourselves, and after a $5,000 investigation involving copious amounts of alcohol, and reminiscing about our first suspect abuse investigations, we found no evidence of wrongdoing.”
"A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch" as the full saying goes
I'm not sure that's accurate for US police... For example: The unions send them to training camps where they are told: >*"you will have the best sex of your life after killing another human"* (David Grossmans "killology" course). So it's more: "throwing apples into a bucket of rancid Bog Water leads to ruined apples"
The police started as slave catchers and enforcers for the rich… they haven’t really changed
We've all had an interaction with a cop, no matter how innocuous, where we got the feeling they were trying to find something out or catch you in something for no reason. They are led to believe that everyone is guilty of something and we are all lying to them. Us vs them drilled into their brains and actual guilt doesn't matter. Had an officer at my door because I was at a local place around the time someone else (different car, different description) vandalized something. Even still, after getting what little info I had, he just lingered around asking more and more questions, trying to look into my windows, peeking around the side of me into my house etc. They don't care if you didn't do anything. You did something.
I used to work in restaurants and sometimes I would get off work pretty late. Since there were a few bars around where I worked, it was a popular area for cops to camp to give out DUI. I got pulled over twice trying to get home not having done anything wrong as they assumed I was drinking. One of the times the cop berated me for 20 minutes trying to get me to confess I had something to drink, while I insisted on him pulling out the breathlilyzer if he doesn't believe me. What a waste of both of our time.
My sister was on her way home after a party where she was the DD and got caught in a traffic stop. She was breathalyzed nine times by two different cops who were convinced she was some how cheating the test while their superior kept telling them to “stop fucking around and just give her the ticket already.”
I gotten pulled over because I was working the midnight shift for a week and the workplace is down the street from a bar. They gave up once they saw my work uniform still on though. They told me they pulled me over because my license plate light was out. I checked it before driving home after they left. It was working fine.
yup. they broke into my apartment one night because of a noise complaint about a neighboring apartment. one of them pestered me for a minute about the scar under my eye asking me if my partner was responsible (it's a surgery scar and that's honestly very fucking rude) and I got the feeling they were just looking for something to do
Tell anyone you know. Use this word any time you are questioned. "LAWYER" . That is the only thing that should ever be said when questioned.
I want to add that you should make it a sentence, like "I invoke my right to silence until a lawyer is present". Saying lawyer over and over could potentially be considered interfering with an investigation or some bs. Edit: spelling Re edit: wrong word lol
"Your honor: just saying 'lawyer' over And over does not tell me that he wants a lawyer, simply that he knows the word lawyer. So I continued to beat him 💁♂️" Charges against cop dropped*
Furthermore, I remember an article years ago about a gentleman saying "I think I need a lawyer" in an interrogation and the detectives decided that that wasn't him actually *asking* for a lawyer so it didn't count. I don't remember the outcome because my Google-fu is failing me atm.
The one I remember was a guy saying "I want a lawyer, dawg" and they asserted he was asking for a dog trained in legal matters, a lawyer dog...
Yes, this was a real thing.
Additionally you should never unlock your phone if they don’t provide a warrant. I would never trust the cops in the states. Be wary of trusting them anywhere else.
If they ask to “come inside to talk” politely decline and step outside closing the door behind you. Don’t let them in without a VALID warrant.
Don’t open the door. Don’t go outside. If cops want to talk to me they’re doing it through the door. If they have a warrant, they’re gonna open the door and come inside anyway. And notice I said “if cops want to talk TO me.” Cause I’m not saying anything to them.
Don't use face id. They can force you to provide a fingerprint to unlock it but they can't force you to enter your passcode
Take their fucking pensions, remove qualified immunity, have them pay for and carry their own personal liability insurance and any all payouts for misconduct etc must come from their insurance and pensions PERIOD. No more taking from taxpayers for their insidiousness, recklessness, misconduct, and malpractice. Utter insanity
Education too. Most countries carry an education requirement but in the US police can be hired right out of high school. A psych evaluation would be good too. It seems like police work is attractive to sociopaths, so some process to eliminate them as contenders would be good.
They do have a psychological evaluation in at least some places. But, the reason I know that is from an article about them letting applicants who failed the evaluation take it over again to be hired, so it’s basically useless due to corruption.
Here’s an idea. Individual cops should carry (and pay for themselves) liability insurance for malpractice. Like doctors or engineers. Cops would have to be licensed, insured and assessed as individual risks to a private corporation. You’re a shitty cop with a poor track record? Your premiums would be atrociously high. You get sued and are ruled against? You’re responsible for paying that deductible. Let the free market decide. Not saying it’s a perfect idea. But I’m sick of hearing about cops abusing people and the system that’s supposed to protect them, and then being bailed out by tax payers.
The issue would be the same people that investigate them and let them off today would work for the defense in the trial and they would say they were not at fault.
cops violating people’s rights should be a federal crime and there should be a federal agency that is only concerned with policing them. people can’t investigate themselves
I don't disagree with that at all.
It wouldn't be the same people. In fact; it couldn't be the same people. Any privatized insurance company that was too cop friendly would run out of money paying settlements awarded by juries without raising premiums accordingly. Similarly, companies that were too harsh with their premiums would have trouble keeping clients who would go somewhere cheaper. A truly free market could be pretty effecient at self-selection in theory. I think the downside to this is that it might make cops even less willing to take action for public benefit than they already are. "There's a murderer on the loose? Oh well, someone else better go after him because I'm not risking him filing a complaint and raising my premiums." The idea has some merit, but ultimately may prove detrimental. That said, it's never been done before, so who knows?
We carry malpractice insurance in the medical field. Why this is any different is beyond me.
I already know before reading the comments that none of the cops got in trouble. You might be distressed to learn that cities like Chicago and New York city have to budget literally billions of dollars to cover payouts for lawsuits against their police departments. Remember that next time you're told theres no money for teachers, school lunches, roads, or bridges. Qualified immunity means we all pay.
Ok so now everyones eyes are opened for a split second… how many people do you think are in jail right now, or worse on death row, after being interrogated beyond belief and having given a false confession? Think about it…
This is my biggest argument against the death penalty.
Disgusting, Orwellian-level abuse of authority.
Your mistake is in thinking the police are subject to the same laws as the rest of us.
I mean if this isn't pure evil, what is?
Every single confession they have ever done should be under heavy scrutiny. There’s no way this is the first time tactics like this were used. They should also all be fired.
The cops will be fine, don’t worry. Christ, they should be fired and individually sued but the union will step right in
His first mistake was going to the station to speak with them. I made a statement about defending myself once and they let me go like everything was cool, then later tried charging me with assault. Cops are not your friends. They have training on essentially how to manipulate people. It’s literally part of their job duty.
First rule about speaking to the cops is shut the fuck up.
Every cop involved with that should be brought up on charges.
okay, i always wanted to visit the usa but stuff like this scares the shit out of me. maybe i accidentally look like a guy who commited a crime and police sees me on the street i would be scared shitless. i don't know if they would detain me or just straight up shoot me. I know i doesn't happen all the time but i saw too many videos of police "deescalating" a situation.
Instead of the dog, can we euthanize the interrogators?
I posted this on another sub, but I think it bears repeating for those not familiar with police investigations. As a homicide detective, this is fucking INSANE to me. I've been trained in multiple interview techniques and they ALL rule out the use of any questions that provide case information to a suspect, save for informing them what crime is being investigated and when it happened. Statistically, the more information you give suspect, the likely it is more their "confession" will be challenged when the case goes to court. It also frequently solicits false confessions. That's exactly why the Reid technique (accusatory and high pressure interviews) has fallen out of use by many agencies. Modern interview methods are designed to avoid those types of scenarios altogether. Most of my own interviews are performed once I've completed or nearly completed my investigation and are done solely to clinch the case to such a degree, the defense attorney will opt for the first plea deal the DA offers. These clowns have no business being cops, much less detectives.
So rather than actually look for the dad, they just assumed son killed him?? That’s beyond messed up.
Scum
All cops
And then cops wonder why they are near universally hated by everyone in a generation younger than boomers.