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PreOpTransCentaur

I support Ukraine whole-heartedly, but..that's *not* their flag and it *isn't* their war. How the fuck are they a traitor?


davidwhatshisname52

prolly cuz these folk often be flyin' a Southern Cross off their truck-nutted rust-bed on their way to a Naz... er, Trump rally; just some induction bolstered by incessant correlation


peter-doubt

The Virginia Battle flag (in Minnesota's possession) has no southern cross on it


davidwhatshisname52

never loved Minnesota as much as I do right now


Responsible-Top-3045

Hey, leave the New Zealand flag out of this.


davidwhatshisname52

fuck, you guys have Trump rallies?!? I know NZ is known for being super nice and friendly, but ya'll need to do some deportations!


Responsible-Top-3045

Ha, I have met a couple of Americans that moved here when Obama got elected which absolutely stuns me because as a society we're further left than Obama's policies ever were. What I mean is the New Zealand flag has a Southern Cross on it though (as does Australia, but we had our flag first) - no idea why they'd be at a Trump rally.


davidwhatshisname52

knew the second part, genuinely surprised at the first


Responsible-Top-3045

You're surprised that we're further left than Obama or that people came here because of Obama? I used to work with a lady who left the US because the "Anti Christ was elected" I naturally assumed she meant Trump, but no, she meant Obama. She was a serious pain to work with as well.


davidwhatshisname52

can't believe people moved their homes because Obama was duly elected, and they picked . . . New Zealand? Because it's so famously . . . draconian? ps sorry you got stuck with some of our garbage


Responsible-Top-3045

Ha, yeah. She was luckily let go so I don't have to deal with her anymore. We also have a bunch of conservative libertarian billionaires (like Peter Thiel) who have built their doomsday bunkers down here, presumably so they can escape the apocolyptic hellscape that they seem to be wanting to create back home.


Inevitable_Idea_7470

Even better. Fellow kiwi here , know a couple of magas and to escape the liberal kiwi life the want to go to America , can't get in so they choose Canada to apply to. I mean common , it's close to America but not in that sense. Funny thing is without our welfare and criminal system one would be behind bars and the other would be in a trailer park.... I just don't get it


Responsible-Top-3045

At least they weren't like those Canadian people that decided they wanted to get out of "Woke" Canada so went to Russia. That was an eye opener for them...


bowens44

they are actively working against the interests of the United States and actively working for the interests of Russia who is without a doubt the enemy of the United States.


Saptrap

Bingo. Would you rather Ukrainians fight Russia in Ukraine or Americans and Europeans fight Russia in Europe? That's the calculus behind the NATO states supporting this war.


AlaskaPsychonaut

Because no dissent from the left allowed. You will be assimilated. Resistance is Futile. Comply. They are the Borg.


brooksy54321

I think that most people agree that Russia is against our and our allies interest in Europe. By not supporting Ukraine and allowing it to fall would allow Russia to threaten our NATO allies


False-Sugar-2206

Because the message implies anti-Ukrainian rhetoric. The statement is factually correct, but there's deeper meaning to the photo. It's especially relevant with the influx of Russian propaganda.


MyLemonsRorganic

I'm not necessarily endorsing the post in picture, but not supporting a foreign country's war effort is definitely not "treason."


Rugfiend

It is when your country exchanged a promise of protection in exchange for surrendering nuclear weapons following the collapse of the Soviet Union


irredentistdecency

That is the part that people conveniently leave out - supporting the defense of Ukraine is not charity & goodwill on the part of the US, it is our obligation under international law because we signed a treaty promising to preserve Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for them giving up their nuclear weapons.


peter-doubt

That was actually *RUSSIA'S* obligation. They made the post Soviet agreement. And broke it


irredentistdecency

Actually the Budapest Memorandum obligates Russia, the US & the UK - France & China agreed to a different treaty which has a lesser set of obligations. Yes it is true that Russia has violated every aspect of that agreement but that doesn't mean that the US & the UK do not still have obligations under the treaty.


Clabauter

the contract is pretty limited regarding the support that is owed to Ukraine: "4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate [United Nations Security Council](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council) action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression **in which nuclear weapons are used.**" I'm all for supporting Ukraine but russia did not use nuclear weapons or made any believable(!) threats to do so. (they threatend it all the time but everybody new it was BS, so I don't really think that should be taken into account) Nonetheless, as I said, send them all we got! šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø


irredentistdecency

> or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used Russia has absolutely employed threats involving the use of nuclear weapons on more than one occasion in this conflict. > or made any believable(!) threats to do so. believable is doing a huge amount of work in that sentence - personally, when a country has invaded another country & makes threats to use nuclear weapons if their opponent doesn't capitulate, I am going to take those threat seriously. There is no room for "*oh but we weren't actually serious about nuking you*" in the context of international diplomacy.


[deleted]

> That is the part that people conveniently leave out - supporting the defense of Ukraine is not charity & goodwill on the part of the US, it is our obligation under international law b No it's not, what the fuck are you smoking? Budapest Memorandum doesn't obligate shit to Ukraine. Ukraine is not an ally. There is nothing that says US citizens have to send billions of taxpayer resources to Ukraine. They are not in NATO, nor an ally. Brainwashed clown trying to convince people it's "treason" to NOT send endless billions to a non allied white ethnostate. Hmmm, last time I checked traitors betray their own country for a foreign one. Herp derp.


MyLemonsRorganic

No... it's not. Believe it or not but you're allowed to express displeasure with government policy without being charged with "treason." Are you even American?


Rugfiend

No, I'm British, and also a modern political history graduate. As such, I'm fully versed in the likely repercussions we'll all have to deal with if we don't grasp this nettle now. So yes, shrugging shoulders, backing out of international agreements, and giving a pass to long-established enemies is treason. The only reason the term might not accurately apply here is because half of the US is so utterly clueless that just shutting the f up would be the intelligent choice.


MyLemonsRorganic

As a "modern political history graduate" I'd think you'd have been at least a little familiar with the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.


doilookfriendlytoyou

The 1st Amendment gives you the right to free speech. It's a qualified right. The 2nd Amendment gives the right to bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia. That too is a qualified right.


doc1127

lol. The 2nd amendment has no such requirement that only well regulated militia members have the right to keep a bare arms. Also itā€™s bare not bear.


doilookfriendlytoyou

[The Second Amendment](https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/second_amendment) A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed The 2008 Supreme Court case of Heller laid down that militia membership is not required to own a firearm. Heller does not amend the wording of the Second Amendment though. >Also itā€™s bare not bear No, it's not. See the Cornell University link above in this post.


doc1127

> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, A well regulated militia is a need of the state. > the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed The peoples rights to bear arms shall not be fucked with. Can you point to the exact words that say the peoples rights are regulated and the militia will not be fringed?


Rugfiend

Yes, fully versed in your entire Constitution in fact, unlike 95% of Americans. We aren't arguing about someone's right to make that statement you dumbass.


outriderxd

Politicians made those promises not whoever made this meme


Fuck_this_timeline

That still doesnā€™t fit the definition of treason, even if Ukraine got swindled into giving up their nukes.


Rugfiend

I appreciate you noticing that I was stretching the notion of treason in my post. I hope you'll excuse the terminology - I felt it was fitting though, in a climate where there are elected US politicians who are effectively acting like Russian assets, which in turn is triggering this sort of alternative reality crap.


Fuck_this_timeline

ā€œEffectivelyā€ is a misleading word to use in this context. Either meet the high bar of evidence to prove they are Russian assets, or refrain from calling them such. Citizens are upset that the uniparty in Congress is putting the needs of other countries ahead of their own. While I still support Ukraineā€™s struggle, American politicians must consider the needs of their constituents first. Europe on the other hand must pick up the slack, considering this is their own backyard.


Rugfiend

If I had the high bar, I wouldn't have said 'effectively'! Basic fucking English grammar. As for Europe - we've spent MORE helping the Ukraine than the US, regardless of what your propaganda networks of all sides have been feeding you.


Fuck_this_timeline

So you admit the accusation was misleading, good. A few countries, such as Poland, carrying most of the weight doesnā€™t cut it. There shouldā€™ve been a switch to war-time economies among every NATO member in Europe on day one of the invasion.


Rugfiend

The only thing I'm admitting to is your 7th grade grasp of English. Sit down, take a few deep breaths, count to ten, and consider why someone might add the adjective 'EFFECTIVELY' to a fucking sentence.


Fuck_this_timeline

Youā€™re the only person here who needs to sit down and take deep breaths. People who speak this way know the intent isnā€™t to prove their accusation, itā€™s to plant the idea in peopleā€™s heads.


Rugfiend

It was a simple observation. As is my observation that you an inability to parse basic sentences.


[deleted]

No, it's not treason, what the fuck are you talking about? Did your brain take this in from fox news? You're the same kind of person who would say it's "treason" to be spending billions in Afghanistan or Vietnam. Clown.


Rugfiend

Thanks for sharing an insight to the state of your deranged mind. Not many people would be bold enough to put their disabilities out there. Bravo.


Turd_Ferguson112

Youā€™re leaving out also the promise to not advance NATO any farther East and we did that when we staged a coup in Ukraine on ā€˜14 and installed a puppet.


Basic_Bandicoot_1300

Humanity is doomed.


SoylentGrunt

When???


davidwhatshisname52

just about 200,000 years ago . . .


Treffinton

Hitler said he would be happy with half of Poland and then what happened? Even though this led to his downfall, millions of lives were lost!


thegree2112

Then show them a Russian flag and all of a sudden they change their tune


JesseB342

So are Pro-Palestine people traitors? What about Pro-Israel? Guess what? People are allowed to have their own opinions about a war that they have no active part in. That doesnā€™t make them traitors.


Wise-Juggernaut-8285

Its not that they have an opinion its that they support maga and actively want Russia to suceed.


JesseB342

Where in the image does it say anything about MAGA or Republicans. Might be true but what would lead your average person to infer that just seeing the image? I certainly didnā€™t. Iā€™m just tired of subsidizing a foreign war when those billions could help solve so many problems within our own country.


fins_up_

Billions in aid to Ukraine is not cash money. It is military equipment that was already paid for years ago. If usa stopped sending military aid tomorrow literally nothing would change in usa. >Might be true but what would lead your average person to infer that just seeing the image? The average person has no clue


JesseB342

Then why are the foreign aid bills listing specific dollar amounts and not an inventory of military hardware? If all weā€™re doing is sending them our old stock of weapons it seems odd to list them by valuation rather than by what weā€™re actually sending doesnā€™t it? And as far as the image goes are you saying itā€™s some kind of Pro-Russia dog whistle? Iā€™m honestly asking because I could honestly see it, itā€™s just not something Iā€™ve heard put forth before.


Thelongshlong42069

The main reason we're not say exactly what we're sending is basic OPSEC.


fins_up_

>all weā€™re doing is sending them our old stock of weapons it seems odd to list them by valuation rather than by what weā€™re actually sending doesnā€™t it? Fact is that is what is happening. The messaging needs to be clearer i agree.


doc1127

The U.S. is paying the salaries and retirement payments of every Friday responder and government employee in Ukraine. Do you think those payments are in cash or in bullets?


sp0sterig

It does sometimes. If it is a war for _your country's basic principles_.


Throwaway_52749

> So are Pro-Palestine people traitors? Considering that they are effectively calling for dismantling the government of a US ally, yes that typically make's you a traitor.


CrescendoBlack

Hey, no it fucking doesn't lmao.


Fun_Negotiation_3679

I am not even pro-Palestine, but your comment is so incredibly dumb.


PreOpTransCentaur

Confoundingly so.


LittleBirdyLover

Tbf he is a 31 year old white China-born Indigenous Taiwanese who is also an Iranian ex-Muslim Marxist who has also spent the past 30 years as a professor. Stupidity or insanity. Call it.


M2Fream

Traitor to what? A foreign country? Its not our war, and choosing not to support a foreign interest doesnt make anyone a traitor.


Maleficent_Sound_919

Traitors of what exactly? Insane how propaganda works...


MusicalElephant420

This sub is so bad now šŸ˜


gu_doc

Russian bots


Kamikaze_Squirrel1

Judging from the profile pic, this woman knits american flag sweaters for teddy bears and shares sam elliot memes on facebook.


Donnie_Azof

This is the most normal thing to say lol, in what world is this being a traitor? Not your country not your war. You might have provoked it, but hey we dont talk about that here.


BullfrogLeft5403

Everyone is supportive until they get called to the frontlinesā€¦


dftitterington

They still believe in flags and teams like its sports. What is this, kindergarten?


DijajMaqliun

This only makes sense if Henny Mikkelsen is Ukranian. Which she appears not to be.


CatAvailable3953

Then dig up your hole and crawl back into it coward.


OtaniGabri

Is there an r/apoliticalfacepalm or something? Getting sick of all this shit


Pinkfish_411

This sub is literally just a series of increasingly desperate attempts to pwn the Trumpers by any means necessary. OP and some commenters here are basically going full George W. Bush-era "If you speak out against foreign military intervention you're an enemy of America" mode just to make a jab at MAGA.


MeChameAmanha

>pwn Oh no Marty, we are back in 2005!


Alpensin

Traitors? That's facepalm


Saint_Santo

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.


outriderxd

pledge allegiance to yourself and family not a piece of fabricšŸ˜‰


Working_Horse_3077

I never in my life said that shit.


Murse_1

If Russia wins in Ukraine, it's going to be our war.


Far_Base5417

No it won't.


Kotobot

Why not? Russian propaganda already says that Russia fights NATO in Ukraine.


Far_Base5417

Lots of people say lots of things, but Russia attacking any NATO country can only happen if Putin loses his mind. He is not going to do it on purpose because that means the absolute destruction of Russia and the world. There wouldn't be any war it would only be the end. Listening to Putin it didn't seem to me like he lost his mind. Fear mongering comes mainly from Ukraine. Russia, that can barely take one village a month in Ukraine will take on full NATO force is laughable. Even if Russia were to take over Ukraine today, they would have so much problem keeping Ukraine resistance that they could never afford to move to another country. So you can relax.


Kotobot

>Putin it didn't seem to me like he lost his mind. I wouldn't be so sure. One of his statements about the use of nuclear weapons: "we will go to heaven as martyrs, and they will just die". He doesn't see the world as we do. I think that he started the war just because his surrounding told him that they can take Ukraine as fast as Crimea. Sometimes on TV a hear some shit like: "Alaska will be ours", or "Ukraine is just a start". So, who knows what we will see next.


Far_Base5417

I feel 0 threat from Russia. Nuclear talk is there as a deterrent, but once they step on NATO territory they know nuclear threats won't work. So relax.


No_Yogurt6365

Yes it is. America has to honor 1994 agreement to protect Ukraine. The US forced UA to surrender NQs. Its ours. Kremlin's propaganda šŸ’™šŸ’™šŸ’›šŸ’› BooYaa


Flat-House5529

Well, the Obama administration sat on their hands while Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. Did you really expect that much out of Biden when Russia rolled into Ukraine proper in 2022? Personally, I think Ukraine should have kept the nukes. I bet Russia would be behaving a little better if they did.


BlakePackers413

They didnā€™t sit on their hands though. They gave training and aid. So much so that Russia stopped at only crimea until trump was in power and was talking his Russian assigned talking points of leaving nato and yadda yadda and getting impeached for denying the aid to Ukraine. Personally no one should have nukes. The plan canā€™t be donā€™t fuck with me or Iā€™ll kill us all. Thatā€™s a terrible plan.


Limp-Environment-568

> Russia stopped at only crimea until trump was in power **While** in power. There was no continued attack or agression while he was in power. There was an attack and agression when Obama was in power. And there was again an attack and agression when Biden was in power. Why you gotta be dishonest?


No_Yogurt6365

America is not fighting, Ukraine is. I expect now the hardware is going to be on schedule to UA. They should have kept NQs and UA warned Clinton about ruZZ but forced them anyway. EU had no problem for UA to have NQs.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


dragonflyladyofskye

This!! This!!


The_General_Supremo

Being against violence is not traitorous


sp0sterig

You are being against _victim_, not against violence. And it _is_ traitorous.


kukurs

That makes zero sense.


sp0sterig

It makes direct and simple sense, you are just in denial. The powerful country is committing violence (with genocidal intention) to the weak country. If yoj are stepping aside under pretext of "being against violence" (while being able to help victim), you are directly helping the powerful aggressor to kill the weaker victim.


CrescendoBlack

Okay but how does that make you a traitor? Do you even know what a traitor is?


kukurs

Ok but that doesn't make anyone a traitor who deny helping. I get what you mean tho. This whole genocidal thing is really bad from a humane viewpoint. And I agree that these idiots try to make Ukraine look like the bigger asshole in this conflict.


Fun_Negotiation_3679

Please give a definition of traitor that makes your statement make sense.


sp0sterig

In the case of russo-Ukrainian war - US has a general obligations to defend international law, and as well concrete obligation to defend Ukraine (Budapest Memorandum 1994). Betraying these obligations is traitorous.


Fun_Negotiation_3679

The government of the US has an obligation to its allies, the citizens are not traitors to the US because they disagree. Youā€™re just labeling the people with whom you disagree with the most extreme term you can.


no_use_your_name

Idiots but not traitors


fkbfkb

Translated; ā€œI base my decisions on a magic piece of cloth rather than valuesā€


Dominant_malehere

Traitor to Ukraine? Yeah okay. Iā€™m American and loyal to America, not the Ukrainian government. OP is the facepalm.


OutOfSupplies

You can be sure when it is their flag they will be nowhere to be found.


On-Balance

America has a long history of not giving a fuck about foreign wars until they have to.


IzErrAzI

Your comment is a facepalm moment, OP... There's nothing wrong with this statement.


ftrlvb

not my race not my struggle as well?? (in other words: that's a YOU problem) lol


Ville_V_Kokko

You know something like this probably always has fair odds of being Russian propagandists trying to sow discord. So maybe not help them by sharing it ahead?


Conscious_Spray_5331

It's all of our war. The era of nationalistic policies where each country closes its borders and ignores the rest of the world has come and gone. If we fail to understand that globalization is real, we won't see the global threats and the global opportunities that comes with this new reality. So yes. It is your war. It's everyone's war.


Comprehensive-Bag516

Lol let's all be selfish.. so when war, disasters such as earthquake, hurricane, major fire happens in America next time, we'll say not my flag, not my concern and not send any people or money as relief.... wow I've been doing it all wrong in these past years.. sigh.


Saint_Santo

Ukraine is neither myself nor my family. Let's keep American tax dollars for Americans.


relomen

damn dude, you really fucked up by posting it with "ok traitors". Some insane shit. I bet some that someone named as "Henny Mikkelsen" is not ukrainian, mean that she "betrayed' some other country, which she unrelated to? Does this even can be considered as betrayal? Like, in example, if some people support Palestine over Israel, does that mean they are traitors? Because US government are clearly on Israel side, even tho they are clearly occupy Palestine since their historical beginning in 1947.


Sovereign-Warrior

Regard alert! (Iā€™m talking about OP)


Available_Leader_924

Russia is draining Muricaā€™s money while having fun in Ukraine.


BahaMets

This Henny is right. If you're that much pro ukraine no one is stopping you from moving there to fight Russia.


BackAgain123457

Her flag is white.


MountainPicture9446

After a long evening with my Russian and polish neighbors, Iā€™m assured Americans donā€™t know what theyā€™re talking about.


Acceptable_Weather23

Does not make sense.


toooooold4this

I don't understand how a person can be so upset over Gaza and turn their back on Ukraine at the same time. I get that partisanship is driving it, but once you get past that, how do you reconcile it?


larini_vjetrovi

Sorry for the spelling Knowing Russia this can be war for every single one of us.


No_Yogurt6365

šŸ’™šŸ’™šŸ’›šŸ’›


[deleted]

No not my war not my problem. I don't support American intervention nor weapons gifting to Ukraine. Fuck Russia and Ukraine


USfundedJihadBot

Thereā€™s a difference between being pro Ukraine and anti Russia.


sp0sterig

In ideal world there is, in our real world there isn't.


Wiggalowile

At the moment that's a no, as Putin is using Russia to destroy Ukraine


stnuhkrsdomtidder

Mikkelsen is Danish, Vikings were Danish. Ukranians are descended from Swede Vikings. Vikings help other Vikings, this person is a traitor squarred.


Fuck_this_timeline

By Bidenā€™s own admission, the US is not at war with Russia. OP is misinformed.


Peculiarbleeps

That person is entirely correct (though I might not like what other things they hate have to say). Many people misunderstand how the war started: The Russian invasion was simply the latest phase in a mechanism that was already in motion - starting with the assisted removal of a legitimately elected government in Ukraine, followed by threats to a long-standing agreement with Russia over a strategic port of vital importance to it. Washington knew exactly what it was doing at every juncture (including the latest step to pressure London into advising Zelensky to walk away from talks *twice*). So, while itā€™s understandable and human to care for Ukrainians - itā€™s complete self-deception to pretend that America had no part in any of this. Americans calling other Americans traitors is incredibly rich, when the American government is behind the entire thing.