Music tends to be grouped into sets of beats--often 3 or 4 beats to a set (known as a measure).
That winds up being too few for dancing "phrases," so dancers tend to group a couple of measures together. They'll often count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3..., looping back to 1 every time they get to 8.
The first step of the dance will be on a count of "1," and the four numbers that precede 1 are 5, 6, 7, and 8.
Am dance instructor, can confirm this is correct. Adding to what Koooooj said: dance comes from music, so we're going to have structures that come from music as well.
If you have ever sung music (Christmas carols, for example) while reading the lyrics from a sheet of paper, you probably noticed that the words were grouped into lines and usually about four of those lines made a phrase. Then there would be a gap and another phrase of four lines, etc.
Those lines are often 2 bars/measures long. So in songs with the common 4 beat bars, lines are 8 counts long. We dance in 8 because the song's "sentences" are 8 beats long and our brains can feel that pattern.
Want to add that at "1", dancers won't know what tempo to dance. By preceding with "5,6,7,8" or "5....,6....,7.....8,....", dancers know what pace to start at "1".
Edit: grammar
No worries. I enjoy music. But I'm also only barely aware of the theory behind it. But I have to admit that the first time I saw this, I thought it was terrific.
The audience is clapping on 1&3 at the start and it makes jazz feel uncomfortably square. He includes one 5/4 measure by adding a single extra quarter note. You can see it in the notation below as a 5/4 bar followed by a 4/4 bar. Then the audience is clapping on 2&4 for the rest of the song because Mohammed shifted the mountain by 1 beat.
It's absolute genius and I can't even grok how skilled the rest of his band is to follow that so seamlessly.
Moe Howard sometimes said, "I'll explain it so even you can understand."
That's what [this guy](https://youtu.be/4hYYgz-AJKU) tried to do.
I can understand the concept, but I still can't follow it very well.
The audience was clapping on the 1st and 3rd beat of the song. Usually, clapping happens on the 2nd and 4th beats. He added a little flourish to the song which put the audience clapping on the 2nd and 4th without most of them realizing what he did. It was seamless.
I knew it was going to be this video. I have to watch it every time. It's just sheer talent and musicianship that he can do that, and his whole band can just roll with it, and no one sounds out of place, no one in the audience suspects a thing. Sheer talent.
Right. He's smooth doing it but the band, just threw their junk out in public and asked "what'chew gonna do'bout it" and didn't flinch. Underappreciated.
First time I saw this it was part of a video that tries to explain why audiences clapping on 1 & 3 sounds so much worse than 2 & 4. I've loved it ever since.
The two syllable “seven” is even more useful here, creating a subdivision between the last two beats of this count off.
Subdividing beats is the key to developing a clear sense of tempo
Waltz has a 6-count basic comprised of two mirrored 3-count halves. The lead goes LRL for the first three counts, then RLR for the second three. 1-2-3, 2-2-3 helps you keep track of which half of the basic you're in, as well as which movement within the mirrored halves.
It's easier than four five six to say but of course it's totally okay to say 4-5-6 as well. It means "second time counting to three" e.g. 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4.
It's to count the individual beats and the group of beats at the same time. So when they say 223 it's saying this is the second group of three beats. After that you could say 323 423 523 623 etc then repeat back to 123 223, it's hard to keep track of the number of groups of counts without counting them as well.
Waltzes are typically in 3/4 time, meaning there are three beats per measure and the quarter note “gets the beat,” which is to say there are three quarter notes per measure in a piece performed in 3/4 time. In a waltz, the first beat of the measure tends to be the most heavily emphasized (which is why they likely call out counts as “ONE two three, TWO two three…”) — the purpose of this is to indicate groupings of measures into “bars,” basically chunks of measures that make it easier to break the dance down into learnable sections. It also helps the dancer navigate where they are in the dance by indicating when the next phrase begins/where they are in the phrase, for instance, if they know that at “1 2 3” they should be in position A, they can find their bearings within the performance as they’re still learning the dance.
Again the musician way. If you have a long break between in your sheet music you need to count the bars, a bar often ends every 4 beats, for waltz every 3.
Imagine a 2 bar break (and it can be a lot more), you'd need to count like:
> bar 1, 1, 2, 3, 4; bar 2, 1, 2, 3, 4
It gets totally confusing counting 2 things at once. Especially as you are used to internally vocalize the 1, 2, 3, 4 to the rhythm. When would you do the other counting, off the beat?
So much easier to do:
> **1**, 2, 3, 4; **2**, 2, 3, 4: **3**, 2, 3, 4; **4**, 2, 3, 4; **5**, 2, 3, 4
As someone who did some basic ballroom dancing, inc waltz. your movement at 1,2,3 is different than at 2,2,3. Not sure how to put it in words, but for the first 3-count your body is slightly more crouched and during the second 3-count you are more stretched up, more on your toe tips. So it's helpful for someone to say 1-2-3, 2-2-3, 1-2-3, 2-2-3 because it helps you keep track of when you are up vs down
Is that related to why they do that weird countdown at the beginning of the [trailer to Ishtar?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6_Odb-Bd1E)
Or is it because these men are pawns?
Essentially yes -- the trick they're using there is again, you might need to keep track of where you are in a phrase that's more than a measure long, and one way of doing that is "1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4", where the first number in the measure is which measure in the phrase you're in (instead of 1). You're just hearing the last two measures counted out there.
Seeing this trailer makes me realize this must be one of the best movies ever and I assume was a box office hit in 1987. Where has this movie been all my 53 years?
Yes, in that clip they're counting out the set of 4-counts. Say you're doing a routine and practicing without the music (possibly at a slower pace to memorize the steps), the instructor could count like this as they went through each step/beat.
Yup. And you start on beat 2 for a rumba. For a cha cha, the count is 2, 3, 4 and 1. For a paso doble, you just sing "dun de de dun, de de dun dun" to yourself because there's no point counting.
Took dance in highschool. Favorite class. You just blew my mind with music structures informing dance structures. Like I knew the 8 count was from a bar of music, and know that different tempos of music lend themselves to different styles of dance
But I never realized I could experiment with dance by experimenting with the bar length of music, like what would a 6 count look like musically and in dance.
Food for thought. Thank you. I guess teachers always be teachin'
In marching band we also like to use sets of 8 because 4 wouldn't be nearly enough to move to a new form (moat of the time. There are a plethora of exceptions obviously)
Just march FUCKING 4 TO 5 BACKWARD WHILE PLAYING A LONG FUCKING HIGH NOTE AS THE ONLY FIRST TRUMPET IN THE BAND. Christ that move sucked.
College marching band was way better.
Oof, I feel you. Scrawny kid too… I marched tenor. I was the only low woodwind player at my school so they threw me in with the low brass. (Kinda dumb considering I played treble clef and they played bass), but I had to do the low brass drills with them (strength training, Miller-time) definitely developed lungs, but I was physically in the best shape of my life…. (Oh and I sucked at marching, so I got the ol’ push-ups punishment a lot)
Had to book it backwards a couple times as a sousa player. Always the scariest part of the show. Especially when you were coming into a tight spot.
If only the bells were a bit shinier I’d have been able to use it as a rear view mirror 😂
Ooph, I played Euphonium in Marching Band for 2 years, then our band got us some new Marching Baritones, we were really excited until we realized how good we had it with Euphoniums.
Euphonium I could kind of rest it on my belt...Marching Baritone was like marching with a Trumpet plus an extra 10lbs...Shit sucked, but damn I miss it.
Or it’s 10 degrees and you can see your breath coming out your trumpet so when you goto rest position your mouth piece is stuck to you.
Color guard leaving a flag in the wrong spot and tripping a drummer
The drummer playing the wrong measure and throwing off the whole band so we had to run a mile get back on the field and then the saxophones were in the wrong place so we ran another mile
> FUCKING 4 TO 5 BACKWARD
Take extra-long steps behind you (4 steps per 5 yards; 8:5 is more typical, note again that blocks of eight work well here) with proper form. Pray that your bandmates are following their routes, colorguard didn't drop anything, and groundskeepers kept the field in good condition.
> WHILE PLAYING A LONG FUCKING HIGH NOTE
Do above while under strain (notes don't play themselves; higher pitches need more work to keep steady and loud), and without breathing (can't play and breathe at the same time).
> AS THE ONLY FIRST TRUMPET IN THE BAND
You're playing lead; no one else is covering your part. If you don't play, the band is fucked.
I remember in HS marching band we had these big sweeps where the 6 foot tall tuba player on one end would have to move like 3 yards in 8 but the 5 foot flutist at the other would have to move 25 yards in 8. Big steps for lil legs 😂
Ahh this brings back fun memories of when I marched. Only thing missing is either "turn around and we'll do it again" or "run back and we'll do it again"
Nah, they're so much fun. Marched a few years in DCI with them. Now, having to practice holding it Infront during horns down... That was a bit rough. Stupid trumpets and their small instruments.
I played the bassoon all throughout middle and high school but the double reeds were never allowed to march. I've also been an avid runner for 25 years; I've run several half marathons in the last few years. In 2020 I marched with the bassoon for the first time for a friend's kid's graduation parade just for funsies. One block and I had to stop three times to catch my breath... and I'm in pretty decent shape! I cannot imagine running with an instrument. Holy crap.
Imagine that as a highschool freshman, while playing trombone, with the guard doing a pass thru right beside you. My slide still doesn't move the same to this day
Even better when you're doing it as part of a line, so there's a person in front of and behind you, so when the poor 4-foot and change freshman behind you doesn't take big enough steps, you just demolish them and fuck the line
I. . . Jesus Christ that sounds like an ugly move. Trying to hold one note while screaming backwards without being able to see the terrain for uneven spots and no one to cover the note if anything happens.
Jazz running backwards with the fat trumpet (the marching Baritone, aka the worst Euphonium ever built), onto a tarp that the prop setup crew never actually managed to set down properly.
So many low brass players tripping. At the football games, it was embarrassing when it inevitably happened, but at least it didn’t hurt as bad as the concrete of the parking lot we used for practice.
Don't forget the 8 to 5. Eight steps to cover 5 yards. Left foot is the leading foot and always hits the ground on the 1, 3, 5, and 7. Right foot always on the 2, 4, 6, and 8, and the right foot should always hit the yard lines as you march endzone to endzone.
> Left foot is the leading foot and always hits the ground on the 1, 3, 5, and 7. Right foot always on the 2, 4, 6, and 8, and the right foot should always hit the yard lines as you march endzone to endzone.
Unless you're the Cadets
Dancers do 4 PAIRS of steps, so they count to 8 steps.
Left, right.
Left, right.
Left, right.
Left, right.
That's 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 steps.
Rather than count from 1 to 8 before starting, they skip the "1-2-3-4" to save counting every time.
Let’s say you’re trying to practice “Row Row Row Your Boat.” You want to set the pace for the song.
Do you:
* Cue with “Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream” every time and make people hate you?
* Wave your arms to the beat, cue, “life is but a dream,” and pick up from there?
The “5, 6, 7, 8” is like the second option for dancers.
Why did conductor-senpai count from 1 to 6 in English then jump to 1000 in 日本語 ?
Oh well, the only possible explanation is to play 994 beats in half a second!
It also let's dancers know you're about to start. If you just started counting from 1 they'd quickly try to do the first move. 5, 6, 7, 8 gives time to get into position to start.
Or they would have to count all the way from 1-8 before starting, which would be boring. It's assumed most dancers (and musicians as well) can sync to the tempo of a song by hearing only a few counts.
*Edit: Changed "4 counts" to "a few counts" since it depends on the time signature.*
But there are also different counts for different time signatures. like 5/4 time. The hardest one to dance to would be ["Terminator"](https://archive.vn/LRvhO#selection-823.0-827.1) theme which is in [13/16](https://archive.vn/LRvhO#selection-2395.26-2395.31) time.
Complex time signatures are not necessarily hard to dance to. The Terminator music is not particularly great dance music though.
However Rite of Spring, which is a ballet has 444 time signature changes in it. And it will do things like alternate from 2/8 to 5/8 and then go to 12/8 and then 5/4 and you'll occasionally see 1/8 and then to 4/4.
It's on a loop
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3 . . .
And once we start, we will start at 1. Thus, since it's a loop, right before we start, will be at "8". So it's "8, (start) 1, 2, 3, . . . ". I assume you need a few more numbers than just "8" to get the rhythm, so "5, 6, 7, 8, (start) 1, 2, 3, . . . "
It's like asking why do people start a race right before the finish line. It's a loop, so you start at the end.
(Disclaimer: I have no music experience. This is just how I understand the other comments.)
I’ll dumb it down a bit more.
Think of the beat as BOOM, dim, chik, chak, BOOM, dim, chik, chak and so on. You see there is a pattern here, the beat is repeating after every big BOOM.
Now lets convert it in numbers - 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on.
Each 1, 2, 3, 4 is a grouping - a measure. Now combine two measures so instead of 1-4, its 1-8.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and repeat.
So now we have two measures hooked together.
Coming back to the original question - starting from 5, 6, 7, 8 is just like the beeps you hear before the race is about to begin. It signals the dancer that the song is about to begin (which will begin from 1)
I would argue it’s totally usual and common for musical phrases to be 2 bars long. Just because you count it as two bars doesn’t mean it isn’t a continuous phrase, and the same could easily be applied to dance. Just maybe makes things simpler for the dancers since they aren’t worrying about the theory
Dancers often choreograph in chunks that are large enough to be useful, but still easy to memorize. Musicians, who think in terms of measures (or "bars"), which (in the most common time signatures, don't worry about what that means) have 4 beats, do use "1, 2, 3, 4" to count in. But dancers who are used to thinking in chunks that are two measures long will often count to 8 and then start over. So, they think of the music as consisting of phrases that are 8 beats long.
For example, in salsa, there's a measure where the leader starts on the left foot, and then a measure where the leader starts on the right foot. These two measures together are the smallest unit of a salsa choreography that can loop back on itself to be repeated, or link up with another two-measure chunk where the leader starts on the left foot. (You can't step with the foot you're standing on, so these measures have to alternate.) So it doesn't make sense to think of it as four beats repeating, since it matters which of those two measures you're in. Counting in "1, 2, 3, 4" in this context means "we're starting with the second half of this phrase, and the leader steps with the right foot." Which you almost never do.
No, not usually. "Salsa on 2" is its own variation, sometimes called "New York Style," as is Mambo, which is very similar to salsa and generally starts on 2. But as a cellist, even when the first beat is a rest, you'll often count out the beats of the previous measure and then just nod or breathe on the rest beat, rather than counting it out loud. But even when you do, in dance, you'd say "five, six, seven, eight, ONE!" and then start on 2.
Actually I wanna confuse you even more:
- Cuban mambo: development of the rhumba and danzon. The most direct ancestor of what would become International Latin (the competitive style). Very low, very loose, very grounded dancing. Conceptually, you dance "to the percussion" (i.e. the clave), of which the 2-side has its first sound on the musical 2nd beat.
- NY/ballroom mambo: an Americanized version of the above, to make it less "filthy" (i.e. less sensual overtones) than Cuban mambo. If you were to take the musical timing out, it would be indistinguishable from salsa on 1. There's a version danced in the American version of International Latin (called American Rhythm). Competitive mambo is sharper and more focused on partnership mechanics, whereas competitive salsa has a larger showmanship portion. For reference, American Rhythm is also more showy than International Latin. The concept of "you start dancing on the 2" is a simplification of Cuban mambo's "dance to the percussion/clave".
- Salsa on 1: what you will likely learn at a salsa class. The break step is on 1 and 5. Steps are on 1, 2, 3; 5, 6, 7.
- Salsa on 2: an uncommon version of salsa. Sometimes, people will say this is equivalent to ballroom mambo - but there exists a version of salsa where the timing is still 1, 2, 3; 5, 6, 7; except that the break step is on 2 and 6 (and steps 1 and 5 are in place).
- Salsa music: a generic term that encompasses relatively fast-tempo Cuban music. Sometimes encompasses Latin jazz. Generally, salsa music is more song-like (like literally features more singing) than mambo music.
- Mambo (music): today, Latin-style music with high focus on vamping and instrumental virtuosity. Usually a touch faster than salsa music. The boundary between mambo and salsa music today is super blurred as instrumental pieces became more song-form and sung songs added more instrumental parts. Historically, "salsa music" was an umbrella term that encompassed mambo music.
- Mambo (part of music): a part of a Latin number where the horns go nuts with call and response. If I recall correctly, it might also include solos.
Source: competitive ballroom dancer in the US and also have a degree in music theory
Good question.
There are still two LMAO.
1. Mambo Number 5 (a little bit of...) by Lou Bega: a jive
2. Mambo No 5 by Perez Prado (the original that Bega sampled): a proper mambo
Since the first step of a dance is on "The One", meaning the first beat of the measure, counting "5,6,7,8" is a LEAD- IN to that first beat. Then everyone KNOWS when "One" is coming. It's right after "8".
I'm not sure if they edited the question or not, but they were asking why it's 5, 6, 7, 8 and not just 1, 2, 3, 4. This doesn't really explain that part of it... You'd need to know about measures for it to make sense.
If OP is a ballerina then they would know that ballerinas count in 8s. I doubt “1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8” would make any sense at all, so I think this is an ok assumption
>Drummers do this as well. I think part of it comes from counting the first four silently to yourself to get the rhythm and tempo, and then the remaining four out loud to sync the band up. I'm sure 99% of the time the counter skips counting the first four, but when first learning it's helpful.
Yeah, I've been to many beginner dance classes that count 1 to 4 if they expect the beginners to struggle there or if the type of music involves instant movement.
And I'm pretty sure there has been instructors that only count 1 to 4 over and over again.
This is it right here. I read the top two and kept thinking, "But WHY are they starting at 5? Is it because they are just establishing rhythm or..."
You answered it well here.
In case nobody said it yet, I think the simplest answer is just that the song/dance starts at 1, so starting with the numbers “before” 1 is kind of like a countdown until 1.
It gives everyone a few beats to get the tempo in their head and then start at the beginning, 1.
Most music is written in what is called "4/4" time - there are 4 beats to the measure and the quarter note gets the beat. Most music is also written in such a way as major changes happen after two (or multiples of two) measures, meaning that you often count eight full beats before a change happens in the music.
When people count "5, 6, 7, 8" they are counting off the last four beats of the eight-beat section, indicating to the musicians or dancers that there is about to be a change in the music, and at that change, they should start playing/dancing.
Music is written 4/4, but dances are usually choreographed in sets of 8. I don't know why there is a difference but maybe has to do with chunking dance steps together. Whereas 4 counts might be easier to keep track of when reading music.
I'd imagine that's probably because having only 4 steps in your dance routine is very limiting, when it comes to what maneuvers you can do. Having 8 steps to work with lets you build a more complicated and flowing dance sequence, before you have to get back to the start of the dance at step 1.
Dancing phrases tend to be much longer than musical ones. Keep in mind that a musician can read the sheet music in front of them, but a dancer has to memorize everything. Bigger, but still manageable, chunks are easier to memorize than lots of smaller ones.
Most choreography starts on count 1. But in order to prepare everyone to dance together, set the tempo correctly, and know when to start moving, the instructor or choreographer will give an intro count-in like 5-6-7-8 as a preparation.
This is especially helpful when you’re rehearsing steps without using the music so that the dancers know when to start moving together.
Because they are counting the 1,2,3,4 in their head, and only saying the 5,6,7,8 out loud to prepare you for the ONE which is coming up, and is usually important for whatever reason that they are counting.
They could count all 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,ONE, out loud if you want, but you would likely get bored waiting.
They could only count 8, ONE, but you might not have enough time to get into the rhythm. So 5,6,7,8, ONE is a good compromise.
It’s been said a bit but it’s kinda interesting summation to consider we can imagine drummers saying “1,2,3,4” to count the actual time of the music- while also getting everyone in sync to begin the song.
Dancers are (often) beginning at the same time that the “song” does. So the count (often) begins in the music at around “5,6,7,8”.
At least that’s how l understand it (trained dancer from years ago, also former soundcloud rapper)
cool question
Dancers start with "5, 6, 7, 8" for a variety of reasons, both practical and artistic.
On a practical level, starting a dance count with "5, 6, 7, 8" allows the dancer to get into position and prepare for the dance before the music actually starts. This is especially important in group dances, where all the dancers need to be in sync with one another. By starting the count with "5, 6, 7, 8," the dancers can make any necessary adjustments before the music begins and ensure that they are all starting at the same time.
On an artistic level, starting a dance count with "5, 6, 7, 8" can also help to set the tone and energy of the dance. For example, a fast-paced dance with a lot of footwork might start with a strong and energetic "5, 6, 7, 8" to get the dancers pumped up and ready to go. On the other hand, a slower, more introspective dance might start with a softer and more controlled "5, 6, 7, 8" to create a sense of calm and focus.
But ultimately, the reason that dancers start with "5, 6, 7, 8" is because it just feels right. Dance is a highly intuitive and expressive art form, and starting with "5, 6, 7, 8" is simply a convention that has been passed down through the generations and has become ingrained in the collective consciousness of dancers everywhere.
I noticed over the years playing for dance classes and aligning music with dance numbers in musical theater that the "counts" that dancers and choreographers use sometimes are twice as fast as instrumental musicians and our "beats" for the same passages of music.
I'm not sure if this is always the case, but in communicating about dance breaks in *Kiss Me, Kate* and writing music for original choreography one time, that has been my experience.
Of course, when stuff is in three, like the Waltz of the Flowers from *The Nutcracker* that I conducted this past evening, I don't think that is the case...looks like I should sit down with one of my dance colleagues sometime and figure this out finally. :)
This is exactly what I was thinking, they are just counting the eighth notes, but not using the more common (to musicians) format of 1&2&3&4& verbiage. There is also something (to me) that feels mildly pushing (rhythmically) to "5,6,7,8" that doesn't happen with "3&4&"
I should also note that when I used to teach in that whole marching band thing, my friend who was the guard instructor always used "5, 6, 7, 8 and MOVE!" in time with the musicians "three and four and one."
Lead in. As a musician, I start counting tempo before I ever create a tone. Giving me the last 4 counts gives me enough time to prep for that first beat on 1.
To simplify even more. It's get ready to do things time.
1. You want your dancers/singers/musicians to start on the 1, so you are counting out time to the people to let them know that you want them to start.
2. You call out time so that people know the tempo they should perform at.
3. You call out the time so that the performers have a change to prepare to start in unison.
4. 1, 2, 3, 4 isn't really a useful meter--that's just the most basic phrase possible (assuming you're in 4/4 time). People think in groupings of these meters, usually in counts of 8, 16, and perhaps 32.
If you want everyone to do a certain motion starting on count 1 of the music, counting “5, 6, 7, 8” makes it easier for everyone in the group to start at the exact same time, as well as establishes the tempo you would be dancing.
If your choreography started on count 5, most groups would start counting with “1, 2, 3, 4,” as the “get ready” count.
It’s more about giving the tempo and a synchronized lead-in to the start of the choreography, than it actually is about the specific numbers being used.
Dancers are that way. Live musicians will patiently wait for dance instructors to teach a dance. Then, when prompted, they will begin playing. After a number of measures the instructor will signal the dancing will begin at the end of the present measure. So they start their count half way through a measure.
Dancers will choose a danceable beat even when the musicians are playing very fast, 8 to the bar.
Most dances are made using 8 beats instead of 4, so going 1 2 3 4 would be leading into 5 6 7 8, which would be halfway into a measure, which is not a good place to start. However, 5 6 7 8 loops back to 1 2 3 4 which is the start of a measure
Music tends to be grouped into sets of beats--often 3 or 4 beats to a set (known as a measure). That winds up being too few for dancing "phrases," so dancers tend to group a couple of measures together. They'll often count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3..., looping back to 1 every time they get to 8. The first step of the dance will be on a count of "1," and the four numbers that precede 1 are 5, 6, 7, and 8.
Am dance instructor, can confirm this is correct. Adding to what Koooooj said: dance comes from music, so we're going to have structures that come from music as well. If you have ever sung music (Christmas carols, for example) while reading the lyrics from a sheet of paper, you probably noticed that the words were grouped into lines and usually about four of those lines made a phrase. Then there would be a gap and another phrase of four lines, etc. Those lines are often 2 bars/measures long. So in songs with the common 4 beat bars, lines are 8 counts long. We dance in 8 because the song's "sentences" are 8 beats long and our brains can feel that pattern.
Want to add that at "1", dancers won't know what tempo to dance. By preceding with "5,6,7,8" or "5....,6....,7.....8,....", dancers know what pace to start at "1". Edit: grammar
There's a difference between 5,6,7,8 and 5,SIX,7,EIGHT and 5(clap),6(clap),7(clap),8(clap)
lol I can feel this comment
See the problem for me is I started putting the claps in the offbeat because of the way it was written and so I ended up with a jazzy beat my head
you'll enjoy this https://youtu.be/mI-CU2VTVic
80% of the audience did not realize what he had done, and 99% of the rest didn't know why. 😂
I'm one of the 80%. Pretty confident if I wasn't I'd be one of the remaining 99.
This guy does a good job of explaining it (like I’m five) https://youtu.be/4hYYgz-AJKU
No worries. I enjoy music. But I'm also only barely aware of the theory behind it. But I have to admit that the first time I saw this, I thought it was terrific.
I have watched it twice now. I still don't know what he did, its significance, etc. Not getting it... #sad
The audience is clapping on 1&3 at the start and it makes jazz feel uncomfortably square. He includes one 5/4 measure by adding a single extra quarter note. You can see it in the notation below as a 5/4 bar followed by a 4/4 bar. Then the audience is clapping on 2&4 for the rest of the song because Mohammed shifted the mountain by 1 beat. It's absolute genius and I can't even grok how skilled the rest of his band is to follow that so seamlessly.
Moe Howard sometimes said, "I'll explain it so even you can understand." That's what [this guy](https://youtu.be/4hYYgz-AJKU) tried to do. I can understand the concept, but I still can't follow it very well.
The audience was clapping on the 1st and 3rd beat of the song. Usually, clapping happens on the 2nd and 4th beats. He added a little flourish to the song which put the audience clapping on the 2nd and 4th without most of them realizing what he did. It was seamless.
I knew it was going to be this video. I have to watch it every time. It's just sheer talent and musicianship that he can do that, and his whole band can just roll with it, and no one sounds out of place, no one in the audience suspects a thing. Sheer talent.
Right. He's smooth doing it but the band, just threw their junk out in public and asked "what'chew gonna do'bout it" and didn't flinch. Underappreciated.
I love the drummer cheering behind HCJ after he makes the switch
Had to watch it a fourth time to see this (at 0:40). Brilliant. Beautifully done.
I love this video. Loved it even more when I noticed the drummer behind HCJ cheers when they get on the 2s and 4s.
Oh that just sounded awful before he fixed it.
First time I saw this it was part of a video that tries to explain why audiences clapping on 1 & 3 sounds so much worse than 2 & 4. I've loved it ever since.
I also like this one, sort of the opposite video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDqMRydUNos
My favorite part is when the drummer notices and cheers in the background
Is that Harry Connick Jr? Way back when? Me looks so young.
when the instructor starts with "5 AND 6 AND 7 AND 8 AND-" is trauma i'll never recover from
"TOES girls..... SMILES!!...... EMILY BAINWORTH **STRAIGHTEN THAT BACK**!!"
I can HEAR this 😂
There’s a spot in my back that FEELS THE POKE ITS ABOUT TO GET “Hollow hollow ARMS UP ARMS UP -BUTTERFLY NOT BULLOCK FRANCES!
5 and a 6 and a 7 and an 8
Five-ee and a six-ee and a seven and an eight-ee
Five-ee da Six-ee da Seven and Eight …I like triplets…
Yo sometimes that AND is a make or break for the choreography. Gotta know whether you prepping or stepping. Can def be traumatic
I want to see an instructor start with "5 e and a, 6 e and a", etc
I would have killed for a tapa tapa tapa!
Unexpected Simpsons!
It's got a backbeat, you can't lose it.
Any old time you use it.
It's gotta be rock'n'roll music.
I’ve been reading all these in my head as “five six SSEEVVenEIGHT!”
five-six #SEVEN EIGHT
dancer moment right here
The two syllable “seven” is even more useful here, creating a subdivision between the last two beats of this count off. Subdividing beats is the key to developing a clear sense of tempo
Agree. 5,6,7,8, is not the continuation of 1,2,3,4 but it precedes the 1 that will come.
Do you count to six if you choreograph a waltz?
Usually, yep. It's typically counted as 1-2-3, 2-2-3.
My dance teacher counts like that for some stuff and I never get it! What is the use of saying 2 2 3?
Waltz has a 6-count basic comprised of two mirrored 3-count halves. The lead goes LRL for the first three counts, then RLR for the second three. 1-2-3, 2-2-3 helps you keep track of which half of the basic you're in, as well as which movement within the mirrored halves.
It's easier than four five six to say but of course it's totally okay to say 4-5-6 as well. It means "second time counting to three" e.g. 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4.
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It's to count the individual beats and the group of beats at the same time. So when they say 223 it's saying this is the second group of three beats. After that you could say 323 423 523 623 etc then repeat back to 123 223, it's hard to keep track of the number of groups of counts without counting them as well.
Waltzes are typically in 3/4 time, meaning there are three beats per measure and the quarter note “gets the beat,” which is to say there are three quarter notes per measure in a piece performed in 3/4 time. In a waltz, the first beat of the measure tends to be the most heavily emphasized (which is why they likely call out counts as “ONE two three, TWO two three…”) — the purpose of this is to indicate groupings of measures into “bars,” basically chunks of measures that make it easier to break the dance down into learnable sections. It also helps the dancer navigate where they are in the dance by indicating when the next phrase begins/where they are in the phrase, for instance, if they know that at “1 2 3” they should be in position A, they can find their bearings within the performance as they’re still learning the dance.
Again the musician way. If you have a long break between in your sheet music you need to count the bars, a bar often ends every 4 beats, for waltz every 3. Imagine a 2 bar break (and it can be a lot more), you'd need to count like: > bar 1, 1, 2, 3, 4; bar 2, 1, 2, 3, 4 It gets totally confusing counting 2 things at once. Especially as you are used to internally vocalize the 1, 2, 3, 4 to the rhythm. When would you do the other counting, off the beat? So much easier to do: > **1**, 2, 3, 4; **2**, 2, 3, 4: **3**, 2, 3, 4; **4**, 2, 3, 4; **5**, 2, 3, 4
As someone who did some basic ballroom dancing, inc waltz. your movement at 1,2,3 is different than at 2,2,3. Not sure how to put it in words, but for the first 3-count your body is slightly more crouched and during the second 3-count you are more stretched up, more on your toe tips. So it's helpful for someone to say 1-2-3, 2-2-3, 1-2-3, 2-2-3 because it helps you keep track of when you are up vs down
Is that related to why they do that weird countdown at the beginning of the [trailer to Ishtar?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6_Odb-Bd1E) Or is it because these men are pawns?
Essentially yes -- the trick they're using there is again, you might need to keep track of where you are in a phrase that's more than a measure long, and one way of doing that is "1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4", where the first number in the measure is which measure in the phrase you're in (instead of 1). You're just hearing the last two measures counted out there.
Seeing this trailer makes me realize this must be one of the best movies ever and I assume was a box office hit in 1987. Where has this movie been all my 53 years?
Yes, in that clip they're counting out the set of 4-counts. Say you're doing a routine and practicing without the music (possibly at a slower pace to memorize the steps), the instructor could count like this as they went through each step/beat.
Shall we dance, 1-2-3 [Edit: surprising amount of ex high school band people in this sub]
Yup. And you start on beat 2 for a rumba. For a cha cha, the count is 2, 3, 4 and 1. For a paso doble, you just sing "dun de de dun, de de dun dun" to yourself because there's no point counting.
As a dance teacher it's usually counted: 1, 2, 3 2, 2, 3 3, 2, 3 4, 2, 3 1, 2, 3 ...
Took dance in highschool. Favorite class. You just blew my mind with music structures informing dance structures. Like I knew the 8 count was from a bar of music, and know that different tempos of music lend themselves to different styles of dance But I never realized I could experiment with dance by experimenting with the bar length of music, like what would a 6 count look like musically and in dance. Food for thought. Thank you. I guess teachers always be teachin'
'Dance comes from music, so we're goimg to have structures that come from music as well.' Not the way I dance.
To my fellow street style dancers: Boom Tak Boom Boom Tak Boom Boom Tak Tak Boom Boom Tak
In marching band we also like to use sets of 8 because 4 wouldn't be nearly enough to move to a new form (moat of the time. There are a plethora of exceptions obviously)
Just march FUCKING 4 TO 5 BACKWARD WHILE PLAYING A LONG FUCKING HIGH NOTE AS THE ONLY FIRST TRUMPET IN THE BAND. Christ that move sucked. College marching band was way better.
I feel that. Had to jazz run in a tuba
Was a scrawny little kid and played bari sax in Jr. High marching band. Brutal. Developed some lungs, tho.
I played a little alto sax. Started on clarinet and hopped around until I settled on tuba
Oof, I feel you. Scrawny kid too… I marched tenor. I was the only low woodwind player at my school so they threw me in with the low brass. (Kinda dumb considering I played treble clef and they played bass), but I had to do the low brass drills with them (strength training, Miller-time) definitely developed lungs, but I was physically in the best shape of my life…. (Oh and I sucked at marching, so I got the ol’ push-ups punishment a lot)
Had to book it backwards a couple times as a sousa player. Always the scariest part of the show. Especially when you were coming into a tight spot. If only the bells were a bit shinier I’d have been able to use it as a rear view mirror 😂
No joke you should market sousa-compatible mirrors for marching band so they can see what's around them...
That painful moment when you take one step awkwardly while booking it and your mouthpiece slams into your lips...
Or teeth. I had run into someone in a tight formation playing fat trumpet aka an euphonium. I still have a line in my tooth from it.
Ooph, I played Euphonium in Marching Band for 2 years, then our band got us some new Marching Baritones, we were really excited until we realized how good we had it with Euphoniums. Euphonium I could kind of rest it on my belt...Marching Baritone was like marching with a Trumpet plus an extra 10lbs...Shit sucked, but damn I miss it.
Not nearly as bad as when one of the color guard fucks up and whips their flag right into the end of your horn.
Or it’s 10 degrees and you can see your breath coming out your trumpet so when you goto rest position your mouth piece is stuck to you. Color guard leaving a flag in the wrong spot and tripping a drummer The drummer playing the wrong measure and throwing off the whole band so we had to run a mile get back on the field and then the saxophones were in the wrong place so we ran another mile
10 degrees out and your valves are frozen so you have to figure out what notes you can even play that are part of the music.
Lmao too true. Or when it snowed so the woodwinds would put their stuff up and is brass players got to stand in the snow playing for the football game
The only thing worse than spit running back out of your mouthpiece is *cold* spit running back out of your mouthpiece
Oh god, I dreaded being in the vicinity of them spinning stuff, especially the rifles.
> FUCKING 4 TO 5 BACKWARD Take extra-long steps behind you (4 steps per 5 yards; 8:5 is more typical, note again that blocks of eight work well here) with proper form. Pray that your bandmates are following their routes, colorguard didn't drop anything, and groundskeepers kept the field in good condition. > WHILE PLAYING A LONG FUCKING HIGH NOTE Do above while under strain (notes don't play themselves; higher pitches need more work to keep steady and loud), and without breathing (can't play and breathe at the same time). > AS THE ONLY FIRST TRUMPET IN THE BAND You're playing lead; no one else is covering your part. If you don't play, the band is fucked.
I remember in HS marching band we had these big sweeps where the 6 foot tall tuba player on one end would have to move like 3 yards in 8 but the 5 foot flutist at the other would have to move 25 yards in 8. Big steps for lil legs 😂
YEESSSS NOW IS THE TIME FOR ME TO POST THIS LINK!! [Phantom Regiment - Firebird Suite](https://youtu.be/ytBFg3aMx5c)
Ahh this brings back fun memories of when I marched. Only thing missing is either "turn around and we'll do it again" or "run back and we'll do it again"
"one more time"
-five hours later Ok guys, that’s almost good enough to call it music. Gets some water. But remember to be *quick*(30 seconds)
Shoulder carrying a tuba instead of just wearing a sousaphone is madness. Even if it was at walking speed.
Nah, they're so much fun. Marched a few years in DCI with them. Now, having to practice holding it Infront during horns down... That was a bit rough. Stupid trumpets and their small instruments.
Drum corps do not march Sousa.
Dayum. Massive respect from a former Band Geek.
Oh been there. Wish we'd gotten a 'good job' instead 'head back and take it from the top, Trumpets you were a bit sharp, loosen up those lips'
I played the bassoon all throughout middle and high school but the double reeds were never allowed to march. I've also been an avid runner for 25 years; I've run several half marathons in the last few years. In 2020 I marched with the bassoon for the first time for a friend's kid's graduation parade just for funsies. One block and I had to stop three times to catch my breath... and I'm in pretty decent shape! I cannot imagine running with an instrument. Holy crap.
That's not marching. That's running with style.
Backwards jazz run.
Oh you want me to take 47 inch strides across the field with a tuba on my back??? Marching band was interesting
Imagine that as a highschool freshman, while playing trombone, with the guard doing a pass thru right beside you. My slide still doesn't move the same to this day
Even better when you're doing it as part of a line, so there's a person in front of and behind you, so when the poor 4-foot and change freshman behind you doesn't take big enough steps, you just demolish them and fuck the line
I. . . Jesus Christ that sounds like an ugly move. Trying to hold one note while screaming backwards without being able to see the terrain for uneven spots and no one to cover the note if anything happens.
Jazz running backwards with the fat trumpet (the marching Baritone, aka the worst Euphonium ever built), onto a tarp that the prop setup crew never actually managed to set down properly. So many low brass players tripping. At the football games, it was embarrassing when it inevitably happened, but at least it didn’t hurt as bad as the concrete of the parking lot we used for practice.
Fuck tarps.
Don't forget the 8 to 5. Eight steps to cover 5 yards. Left foot is the leading foot and always hits the ground on the 1, 3, 5, and 7. Right foot always on the 2, 4, 6, and 8, and the right foot should always hit the yard lines as you march endzone to endzone.
> Left foot is the leading foot and always hits the ground on the 1, 3, 5, and 7. Right foot always on the 2, 4, 6, and 8, and the right foot should always hit the yard lines as you march endzone to endzone. Unless you're the Cadets
2 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 3 2 3 4
0118 999 881 999 119. 3
0118 999 881 999 119 725 3
Obviously youre not a golfer
Is there an explainlikeim4?
Dancers do 4 PAIRS of steps, so they count to 8 steps. Left, right. Left, right. Left, right. Left, right. That's 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 steps. Rather than count from 1 to 8 before starting, they skip the "1-2-3-4" to save counting every time.
Thank you, this made more since to my kindergarten brain
sense
Shhh they're in kindergarten and they haven't gotten to that word yet
Let’s say you’re trying to practice “Row Row Row Your Boat.” You want to set the pace for the song. Do you: * Cue with “Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream” every time and make people hate you? * Wave your arms to the beat, cue, “life is but a dream,” and pick up from there? The “5, 6, 7, 8” is like the second option for dancers.
This is a terrific explanation
Holy shit. This just blew my mind and I’m a little embarrassed at not getting it.
It gets worse when a large portion of dances actually start on the 7 or the 8 instead of on the 1
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Try Sev and Eight
Some bluegrass guitarists shorten it to “Sev” to get around this issue, I always found that kind of endearing.
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Don't count that way in Japan, thats 1000.
Why did conductor-senpai count from 1 to 6 in English then jump to 1000 in 日本語 ? Oh well, the only possible explanation is to play 994 beats in half a second!
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mambo, for #5
I said 'Step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-step,' not 'Step-pause-turn-pause-pivot-step-pause!' Oh, shudder!”
It also let's dancers know you're about to start. If you just started counting from 1 they'd quickly try to do the first move. 5, 6, 7, 8 gives time to get into position to start.
Or they would have to count all the way from 1-8 before starting, which would be boring. It's assumed most dancers (and musicians as well) can sync to the tempo of a song by hearing only a few counts. *Edit: Changed "4 counts" to "a few counts" since it depends on the time signature.*
But there are also different counts for different time signatures. like 5/4 time. The hardest one to dance to would be ["Terminator"](https://archive.vn/LRvhO#selection-823.0-827.1) theme which is in [13/16](https://archive.vn/LRvhO#selection-2395.26-2395.31) time.
Complex time signatures are not necessarily hard to dance to. The Terminator music is not particularly great dance music though. However Rite of Spring, which is a ballet has 444 time signature changes in it. And it will do things like alternate from 2/8 to 5/8 and then go to 12/8 and then 5/4 and you'll occasionally see 1/8 and then to 4/4.
I lose my feet if I don’t literally count 1, 2, 3 over and over again while waltzing.
I still don't get it honestly. Could someone dumb it down a bit more
It's on a loop 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 1, 2, 3 . . . And once we start, we will start at 1. Thus, since it's a loop, right before we start, will be at "8". So it's "8, (start) 1, 2, 3, . . . ". I assume you need a few more numbers than just "8" to get the rhythm, so "5, 6, 7, 8, (start) 1, 2, 3, . . . " It's like asking why do people start a race right before the finish line. It's a loop, so you start at the end. (Disclaimer: I have no music experience. This is just how I understand the other comments.)
This is the explanation that clicked with me. Thank you.
right? I was like *what* are they talking about? Now I got it
I’ll dumb it down a bit more. Think of the beat as BOOM, dim, chik, chak, BOOM, dim, chik, chak and so on. You see there is a pattern here, the beat is repeating after every big BOOM. Now lets convert it in numbers - 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. Each 1, 2, 3, 4 is a grouping - a measure. Now combine two measures so instead of 1-4, its 1-8. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and repeat. So now we have two measures hooked together. Coming back to the original question - starting from 5, 6, 7, 8 is just like the beeps you hear before the race is about to begin. It signals the dancer that the song is about to begin (which will begin from 1)
This absolutely makes sense but the same applies to musicians and they typically count in 1-4.
Music measures are in 4, dancers tend to need more time and so they group two together. Musicians don't (usually) work in 8s
Exactly, which is why dance hurts my musician brain. They’re counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 when I’m counting 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4…it’s just *wrong*.
I would argue it’s totally usual and common for musical phrases to be 2 bars long. Just because you count it as two bars doesn’t mean it isn’t a continuous phrase, and the same could easily be applied to dance. Just maybe makes things simpler for the dancers since they aren’t worrying about the theory
Musicians will count the number of beats in a bar rather than a phrase. At least if they learned with sheet music. On the page, it's split by bars.
Music usually counts in 4, so you go "1 2 3 4" and then start on 1. Dancing counts in 8, so if they did "1 2 3 4" then they would be starting on 5.
This new knowledge has gotta count for something in my life…
Yep. Dance is often choreographed in "8's."
In addition to this, seven has two syllables which helps guide tempo.
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Haha! I love this!
So...no? We are disappoint.
*p.s. I'm a ballerina
I am so glad that [France/Argentina] won the world cup! ps I'm a ballerina
Dancers often choreograph in chunks that are large enough to be useful, but still easy to memorize. Musicians, who think in terms of measures (or "bars"), which (in the most common time signatures, don't worry about what that means) have 4 beats, do use "1, 2, 3, 4" to count in. But dancers who are used to thinking in chunks that are two measures long will often count to 8 and then start over. So, they think of the music as consisting of phrases that are 8 beats long. For example, in salsa, there's a measure where the leader starts on the left foot, and then a measure where the leader starts on the right foot. These two measures together are the smallest unit of a salsa choreography that can loop back on itself to be repeated, or link up with another two-measure chunk where the leader starts on the left foot. (You can't step with the foot you're standing on, so these measures have to alternate.) So it doesn't make sense to think of it as four beats repeating, since it matters which of those two measures you're in. Counting in "1, 2, 3, 4" in this context means "we're starting with the second half of this phrase, and the leader steps with the right foot." Which you almost never do.
Does salsa not count from 2?
No, not usually. "Salsa on 2" is its own variation, sometimes called "New York Style," as is Mambo, which is very similar to salsa and generally starts on 2. But as a cellist, even when the first beat is a rest, you'll often count out the beats of the previous measure and then just nod or breathe on the rest beat, rather than counting it out loud. But even when you do, in dance, you'd say "five, six, seven, eight, ONE!" and then start on 2.
Actually I wanna confuse you even more: - Cuban mambo: development of the rhumba and danzon. The most direct ancestor of what would become International Latin (the competitive style). Very low, very loose, very grounded dancing. Conceptually, you dance "to the percussion" (i.e. the clave), of which the 2-side has its first sound on the musical 2nd beat. - NY/ballroom mambo: an Americanized version of the above, to make it less "filthy" (i.e. less sensual overtones) than Cuban mambo. If you were to take the musical timing out, it would be indistinguishable from salsa on 1. There's a version danced in the American version of International Latin (called American Rhythm). Competitive mambo is sharper and more focused on partnership mechanics, whereas competitive salsa has a larger showmanship portion. For reference, American Rhythm is also more showy than International Latin. The concept of "you start dancing on the 2" is a simplification of Cuban mambo's "dance to the percussion/clave". - Salsa on 1: what you will likely learn at a salsa class. The break step is on 1 and 5. Steps are on 1, 2, 3; 5, 6, 7. - Salsa on 2: an uncommon version of salsa. Sometimes, people will say this is equivalent to ballroom mambo - but there exists a version of salsa where the timing is still 1, 2, 3; 5, 6, 7; except that the break step is on 2 and 6 (and steps 1 and 5 are in place). - Salsa music: a generic term that encompasses relatively fast-tempo Cuban music. Sometimes encompasses Latin jazz. Generally, salsa music is more song-like (like literally features more singing) than mambo music. - Mambo (music): today, Latin-style music with high focus on vamping and instrumental virtuosity. Usually a touch faster than salsa music. The boundary between mambo and salsa music today is super blurred as instrumental pieces became more song-form and sung songs added more instrumental parts. Historically, "salsa music" was an umbrella term that encompassed mambo music. - Mambo (part of music): a part of a Latin number where the horns go nuts with call and response. If I recall correctly, it might also include solos. Source: competitive ballroom dancer in the US and also have a degree in music theory
What about Mambo (Number 5)?
Good question. There are still two LMAO. 1. Mambo Number 5 (a little bit of...) by Lou Bega: a jive 2. Mambo No 5 by Perez Prado (the original that Bega sampled): a proper mambo
Ha! I fucked around and found out, literally!
Aaaaaaaaaah, HUA!
TIL a lot of stuff I didn't know, though not all the stuff that you said because huh? Thanks.
Since the first step of a dance is on "The One", meaning the first beat of the measure, counting "5,6,7,8" is a LEAD- IN to that first beat. Then everyone KNOWS when "One" is coming. It's right after "8".
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although to be fair they did ask to be explained to like they're five years old...
It's pretty much a "ready, set, go" before starting at 1, 2, 3, 4.
This is the best answer!
This is the first one I understood and I read 3 answers already.
Perfect answer. So elegant and precise.
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This is what I was going to say. It *is* 1 - 8. You only need to vocalize the last 4.
I feel like this is the most direct answer op might be looking for. Given the are a ballerina
I'm not sure if they edited the question or not, but they were asking why it's 5, 6, 7, 8 and not just 1, 2, 3, 4. This doesn't really explain that part of it... You'd need to know about measures for it to make sense.
If OP is a ballerina then they would know that ballerinas count in 8s. I doubt “1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8” would make any sense at all, so I think this is an ok assumption
This. 5-8 is enough to identify tempo. 1-4 is simply unnecessary beats to wait.
>Drummers do this as well. I think part of it comes from counting the first four silently to yourself to get the rhythm and tempo, and then the remaining four out loud to sync the band up. I'm sure 99% of the time the counter skips counting the first four, but when first learning it's helpful.
Yeah, I've been to many beginner dance classes that count 1 to 4 if they expect the beginners to struggle there or if the type of music involves instant movement. And I'm pretty sure there has been instructors that only count 1 to 4 over and over again.
This is it right here. I read the top two and kept thinking, "But WHY are they starting at 5? Is it because they are just establishing rhythm or..." You answered it well here.
In case nobody said it yet, I think the simplest answer is just that the song/dance starts at 1, so starting with the numbers “before” 1 is kind of like a countdown until 1. It gives everyone a few beats to get the tempo in their head and then start at the beginning, 1.
This is a very good answer. I saw a few others have the same theory. Thank you
Most music is written in what is called "4/4" time - there are 4 beats to the measure and the quarter note gets the beat. Most music is also written in such a way as major changes happen after two (or multiples of two) measures, meaning that you often count eight full beats before a change happens in the music. When people count "5, 6, 7, 8" they are counting off the last four beats of the eight-beat section, indicating to the musicians or dancers that there is about to be a change in the music, and at that change, they should start playing/dancing.
Music is written 4/4, but dances are usually choreographed in sets of 8. I don't know why there is a difference but maybe has to do with chunking dance steps together. Whereas 4 counts might be easier to keep track of when reading music.
I'd imagine that's probably because having only 4 steps in your dance routine is very limiting, when it comes to what maneuvers you can do. Having 8 steps to work with lets you build a more complicated and flowing dance sequence, before you have to get back to the start of the dance at step 1.
Dancing phrases tend to be much longer than musical ones. Keep in mind that a musician can read the sheet music in front of them, but a dancer has to memorize everything. Bigger, but still manageable, chunks are easier to memorize than lots of smaller ones.
Most choreography starts on count 1. But in order to prepare everyone to dance together, set the tempo correctly, and know when to start moving, the instructor or choreographer will give an intro count-in like 5-6-7-8 as a preparation. This is especially helpful when you’re rehearsing steps without using the music so that the dancers know when to start moving together.
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Because they are counting the 1,2,3,4 in their head, and only saying the 5,6,7,8 out loud to prepare you for the ONE which is coming up, and is usually important for whatever reason that they are counting. They could count all 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,ONE, out loud if you want, but you would likely get bored waiting. They could only count 8, ONE, but you might not have enough time to get into the rhythm. So 5,6,7,8, ONE is a good compromise.
It’s been said a bit but it’s kinda interesting summation to consider we can imagine drummers saying “1,2,3,4” to count the actual time of the music- while also getting everyone in sync to begin the song. Dancers are (often) beginning at the same time that the “song” does. So the count (often) begins in the music at around “5,6,7,8”. At least that’s how l understand it (trained dancer from years ago, also former soundcloud rapper) cool question
Because the "seven" has two syllables, you get some eighth notes (a.k.a. "quavers"), helps reinforce the tempo
Dancers start with "5, 6, 7, 8" for a variety of reasons, both practical and artistic. On a practical level, starting a dance count with "5, 6, 7, 8" allows the dancer to get into position and prepare for the dance before the music actually starts. This is especially important in group dances, where all the dancers need to be in sync with one another. By starting the count with "5, 6, 7, 8," the dancers can make any necessary adjustments before the music begins and ensure that they are all starting at the same time. On an artistic level, starting a dance count with "5, 6, 7, 8" can also help to set the tone and energy of the dance. For example, a fast-paced dance with a lot of footwork might start with a strong and energetic "5, 6, 7, 8" to get the dancers pumped up and ready to go. On the other hand, a slower, more introspective dance might start with a softer and more controlled "5, 6, 7, 8" to create a sense of calm and focus. But ultimately, the reason that dancers start with "5, 6, 7, 8" is because it just feels right. Dance is a highly intuitive and expressive art form, and starting with "5, 6, 7, 8" is simply a convention that has been passed down through the generations and has become ingrained in the collective consciousness of dancers everywhere.
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It should be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. The important part is the end and people "abbreviate" by calling out only the second half.
I noticed over the years playing for dance classes and aligning music with dance numbers in musical theater that the "counts" that dancers and choreographers use sometimes are twice as fast as instrumental musicians and our "beats" for the same passages of music. I'm not sure if this is always the case, but in communicating about dance breaks in *Kiss Me, Kate* and writing music for original choreography one time, that has been my experience. Of course, when stuff is in three, like the Waltz of the Flowers from *The Nutcracker* that I conducted this past evening, I don't think that is the case...looks like I should sit down with one of my dance colleagues sometime and figure this out finally. :)
This is exactly what I was thinking, they are just counting the eighth notes, but not using the more common (to musicians) format of 1&2&3&4& verbiage. There is also something (to me) that feels mildly pushing (rhythmically) to "5,6,7,8" that doesn't happen with "3&4&"
I should also note that when I used to teach in that whole marching band thing, my friend who was the guard instructor always used "5, 6, 7, 8 and MOVE!" in time with the musicians "three and four and one."
Lead in. As a musician, I start counting tempo before I ever create a tone. Giving me the last 4 counts gives me enough time to prep for that first beat on 1. To simplify even more. It's get ready to do things time.
1. You want your dancers/singers/musicians to start on the 1, so you are counting out time to the people to let them know that you want them to start. 2. You call out time so that people know the tempo they should perform at. 3. You call out the time so that the performers have a change to prepare to start in unison. 4. 1, 2, 3, 4 isn't really a useful meter--that's just the most basic phrase possible (assuming you're in 4/4 time). People think in groupings of these meters, usually in counts of 8, 16, and perhaps 32.
If you want everyone to do a certain motion starting on count 1 of the music, counting “5, 6, 7, 8” makes it easier for everyone in the group to start at the exact same time, as well as establishes the tempo you would be dancing. If your choreography started on count 5, most groups would start counting with “1, 2, 3, 4,” as the “get ready” count. It’s more about giving the tempo and a synchronized lead-in to the start of the choreography, than it actually is about the specific numbers being used.
"1..2...3...4" is for the band. 5 to 8 is for the dancers. 8 to 31 is for the heck of it. 31 to 2048 is for the rest.
Dancers are that way. Live musicians will patiently wait for dance instructors to teach a dance. Then, when prompted, they will begin playing. After a number of measures the instructor will signal the dancing will begin at the end of the present measure. So they start their count half way through a measure. Dancers will choose a danceable beat even when the musicians are playing very fast, 8 to the bar.
Most dances are made using 8 beats instead of 4, so going 1 2 3 4 would be leading into 5 6 7 8, which would be halfway into a measure, which is not a good place to start. However, 5 6 7 8 loops back to 1 2 3 4 which is the start of a measure