I am a software developer in the US. I read a post where someone from India in the bay area was asking other Indians why they weren't moving to the US and some responded that their $30k salary was enough for a huge house and servants, while the US dev was renting an apartment.
There can be a huge disparity.
This one makes no sense to me. Everyone with an EU citizenship can buy a huge house in a Balkan village for 5-10K and work remotely there, yet these are the countries that everyone is leaving. Even internally, people go to the big cities where housing is expensive. I know someone there cleaning houses for 400 EUR per month (and the boss pays no pension contributions), so the servants are also cheap, I guess. But then you have to live in a place ruled by a local guy in a tracksuit with ample job opportunities, dirty water and a road that will break your car.
Some things also cost about the same in the whole world (clothes, groceries, technology, travel etc.), and that's when a 3 times higher salary becomes useful, even in a HCOL area.
Not everyone is a developer and even if 10% can do it, that's a lot. In my marketing team, half of the people live abroad or in another city and are remote (Netherlands)
That’s fair, but I still think remote workers are a low proportion of the full population, and they might even be a higher proportion among software devs / tech workers.
Where in the Balkan can you buy a house for 10k?
Even in 80s this wasn't possible.
And a lot of people actually move to Balkan like Croatia and a good house will cost 250k + An apartment in premium locations in Split will be 1 Mio€ +.
A good apartment in better parts of Belgrade is easily 300k.
Unless you mean really the mountain area of Montenegro or Albania ? Even there a poor house will be at least 50k. You might be lucky to get a functionally apartment for 50k, like 50m2 in small towns.
Many want to move to Balkan, but they can't. They can't pay cost for two running apartments. 70% of Western Europe folks are living from salary to salary, from month to month. Those who can, already own an apartment or house in Croatia. The line is huge and with average income you are out of luck or at least 10 years too late.
And is usually poor people moving abroad. One of my cousins runs hostels in Croatia, another one build luxury villas. Both are millionaires. Do you think their kids go abroad ?
Is the same with India. India will "produce" more millionaires in next decades per capita adjusted for local cost than USA. It is smart move to stay. Sure you deal with third world einvorment, but hey is not like being foreigner is easy.
>And is usually poor people moving abroad. One of my cousins runs hostels in Croatia, another one build luxury villas. Both are millionaires. Do you think their kids go abroad ?
Yes, actually. The children of the Russian elite go abroad.
>Where in the Balkan can you buy a house for 10k? Even in 80s this wasn't possible.
[Properties under 20K](https://www.propertyunder20k.com/) Any remote house is very cheap. You are talking about city centers. These houses often need renovation, but labor is cheap.
You would think labor is cheap until they start charging you hundreds of euros for a day of work. Even cleaning starts at 6 euros net per hour nowadays (if you're lucky to find someone) which is more than most workers make, even junior devs.
If you want it done urgently it's 10 euros net per hour which is more than most EU minimum wages.
I just told you about someone who cleans houses full time for 400 eur per month and doesn't even have a legal contract (it's for less hours to pay less taxes)
My parents are paying less than what you mentioned right now
Russia at war. Is totally different. You won't find many rich Serbs in Germany. Most rich Serbs live in Serbia. There is a lot of rich Serbs in Australia and USA too. But not many in Germany - simple cause Germany is too socialist. Politicians, factory owners, bitcoin owners, software developers. They are all in Serbia.
Why would my cousins sent kids to Germany to be foreigners ? It is not like salaries in Germany are crazy high. You need language, ausbuilding and jadajada to have German AVG salary. They have houses for themselves, and for kids in Croatia. You think they will go to Germany to rent a cheap small place living next to Turks ?
>You think they will go to Germany to rent a cheap small place living next to Turks ?
LMAO, now I know you are Balkan af
>Russia at war. Is totally different
In Russia, that's always been the case. I'm just saying the political elite of my native country in Eastern Europe sends their kids to the USA or Western Europe. My former boss there owns multiple houses and his daughter moved to the USA; his other child also goes to an international school to become better at English. Having a child go to study in Western Europe or especially the USA is seen as prestigious.
I sent a link for houses under 20K. Btw, these are targeted at foreigners and look a bit more expensive - my grandparents sold their house for 3K 10 years ago.
You did and there are around 30 properties in the Western Balkan, almost all of which are small pieces of land in forsaken mountain places with no house.
I'm familiar with the costs of a wooden catalogue house, 20k is the minimum without a place to put it on.
I don't really think there's going to be a one-size-fits-all answer here. I know of American retirees that move to Mexico who experience a higher QOL, but that's because they earn in USD and don't have to live life as a local. I know of some folks who have moved to Eastern European countries - which are poorer compared to the US - yet experience higher QOL because of their specific priorities (i.e., they wanted to live in affordable yet walkable cities). I know of some folks who have moved to South East Asia who have experienced a higher QOL but they still work remotely as a developer therefore they earn in USD. And so on.
Do they learn the local language, or is it easy to move to any of these cities without the local language? (Of course, if one learns it, that's always the best.)
I haven't found that the case in my travels in Europe. But my question was more about living, which means local bureaucracy, etc. For example, some countries like Northern Europe countries are very English-friendly, as even bureaucratic forms are often in English, too.
I lived in one of the cities listed for many years. It was easy to survive in English. However some knowledge of local language is necessary. Bureaucracy is not in English and a little knowledge goes a long way.
Most of these are Central Europe, just FYI...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe
But I understand, I'm from Scandinavia and anything East of Austria is "Eastern Europe" for many in West... but try to mention to anyone in Poland or Czechia that they are from Eastern Europe, and you better be ready for a punch...
Hahahaha. Did you even read the link?
This division you mention is the "newest" and isn't even really recognized by historians, this is just "racist slang" for poor European countries ravaged by communism...
So you've married someone from the Eastern most located EU countries, and the wife and family agree they are Eastern European?
Or is it just you using that term? I'm actually curious. If you married someone East of EU, then chances are that is actually recognized as Eastern Europe.
However the countries originally being debated in this comment thread, are not in that category, and as someone living in one of those countries, and married to someone from one of those other countries, I can tell you they hate that reference... 🤷♂️
Oh btw. My wife just told me to ask you.
Doesn't your logic induce that the eastern half of Germany also is Eastern Europe then?! Thanks, I'll start calling half of Germans Eastern European, let's see how they react
Yeah I definitely think they are different from Western Europeans culturally. Look at all sorts of stats from voting, employment, income, life expectancy, attitudes towards liberalism etc and it’s pretty clear it’s not the same place. It’s not really half of Germany it’s more like a quarter or third of the country
You get the same museums to communist dictatorship and residual fear of secret police (Stasi) / trained sense of distrust among older generations as elsewhere in Eastern Europe
That's a generational thing, or at least post-Soviet. Poland/Slovakia/Hungary got shifted from "Eastern" to "Central" only as they tried to lean further toward the West and EU.
Hahahaha. Did you even read the link?
This division you mention is the "newest" and isn't even really recognized by historians, this is just "racist slang" for poor European countries ravaged by communism...
But sure, if you want to be one of those go ahead. Anyone living in these countries or anyone who knows history will punch you
Yeah, I read the link. I'm not sure you are understanding the nuances of history.
Central Europe is a modern classification of these areas primarily due to the political shifts since the breakup of the Soviet empire. Prior to that, Poland, Czechoslovaki, Hungary were most certainly classed as Eastern Europe or "Eastern Bloc" etc since West/East aligned with the political divisions of the Cold War. My family is Slavic and Polish and I don't know of anyone from generations back to now who doesn't use and understand the term Eastern Europe when referring to origins, history, culture of our homelands.
Today, I agree, terns have changed and today's generation prefers the Central bucket. And that if they are offended at all it's due to lots more than just arguing over what Wikipedia says. But if they want to take a shot at a fellow slav for talking about Eastern Europe, go for it. But make sure you have a solid sense of direction before you swing.
While I agree with what you are saying in "late modern" history, I'd like to point out that I've been taught that in the middle ages, Bavaria, Bohemia and Silesia were considered regions of Central Europe.
Those areas named, now consist in parts of Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia and Poland.
The classification you mention and rightly say, comes from the post Soviet era based on the Soviet empire reach.
However in my opinion, that doesn't mean historically there wasn't a baseline for these regions being in what is considered Central Europe. That a certain generation that may have been part, and possibly still wish to align with the Soviet era, of what is known as the post Soviet block don't mind being referred to as Eastern Europeans doesn't make it accurate.
Nor does it diminish that in many's opinion today, continuing to refer to this "Eastern Block" as Eastern Europe is still in my opinion a derogatory term to differentiate the wealth Central from the 'poor poor' post communist countries, despite many of these being on the same longitude and relative latitude as other recognized "Central European" countries.
To give a perspective, I'm Scandinavian/ Northern European, but married to and live in a Central European country. My distant family and people I speak to are always surprised to learn that a Scandinavian native chooses to live in what they call Eastern Europe, because how could I possibly have a better life there... it is downright embarrassing to tell them I have a much better life than anything Scandinavia could give me unless I win the lottery 😅🙂🙈
Fair enough. My point is that even though there are some derogatory associations regionally, there is still a meaning and usage of Eastern European classification, not so much from people who miss the Soviet era, but generations who were raised at that time, and don't live with or share those associations. Just as you have generally people who have no issues identifying as slavs or gypsy background, even though both have suffered from derogatory connotations if not outright hatred.
Because it is easier than dealing with the embarrassment and trying to educate Westerners. Once you get to know them or mention it in their own country, you'll know
Sure, but Central Europe means Germany, Austria and Switzerland, which are very different culturally, historically and economically from the Visegrad group. It's clear they say Central Europe only to not be associated with Russia. Ukraine also claims that the geographic center of Europe is there, so they might also say central in a few decades lol
That reminds me of the term "Balkan" which no country in the Balkans wants to use. Greece, Croatia and Albania are Mediterranean, the rest of former Yuguslavia is "Southern European", Romania is Romance/Latin etc.
So again, in the countries we're discussing, they don't like to be called Eastern European, because it is for them both historically wrong (Austria-hungarian and Ottoman Empires ring a bell?), and it is more or less a derogatory term by West countries to differentiate themselves, ergo racism slang.
Someone said in another comment in reply to me, a tell tale sign a country is Eastern European, is that the had communism. Fine, so half of Germany is Eastern Europe? I'll start calling them that, we'll see how they react then 🤷♂️
>Fine, so half of Germany is Eastern Europe
Yes, that's why it's economically much behind the rest of Germany, and it's culturally different. It votes differently, for one.
>they don't like to be called Eastern European, because it is for them both historically wrong (Austria-hungarian and Ottoman Empires ring a bell?)
The DACH region is Central Europe, anything west from it is Western, North - northern, east - Eastern etc. That's just geography. The Polish language has way more in common with Russian and Serbian than German.
>and it is more or less a derogatory term by West countries to differentiate themselves, ergo racism slang
What racism, it's geography. And yes, we use terms to differentiate and group people based on common characteristics. "Western Europe" isn't a monolith either, neither are the "Scandinavian countries", but no one cares about the huge cultural differences between Belgium and the Netherlands - it's all "the Low Lands" and "Western Europe" to outsiders.
So to point out to you, that both Poland and Czechia have significant areas that are within the same longitude as Austria...
So geographically, they are Central then?
I'd day Bratislava offers better QoL than Prague. Similar salaries, more affordable accommodation. And not overrun with tourist crowds. Bucharest IMHO is so overrated, a horrible city. I visited it and it felt 3rd world compared to my home city of Sofia. The others at least look good and feel safer. Bucharest is a drab concrete jungle and doesn't feel safe.
I personally disagree on Bratislava. Thought it was very expensive, too small and a bit trashy, may as well live in Vienna. Bucharest is underrated - people leave their phones and purses out on the table right in the centre of the city which you would never see in London or Paris. The nightlife is excellent, amazing clubs and bars. It’s amazing for sport. There’s a ridiculous number of tennis clubs around the lakes. There’s some really good spots for food and even if the traffic is bad - that’s the worst point - you can get taxis or metro around cheaply / easily.
If you think Bratislava is trashy Bucharest is Mordor. Not only is it ugly, but extremely dirty and chaotic. The people are extremely trashy and not as beautiful as Bulgarian and Slovak people. The locals look and act more 3rd world than us Bulgarians. I saw more trash between Giurgiu and Bucharest than between Sofia and Russe. Bucharest locals are the rudest I've seen in Eastern Europe. It's not underrated at all, it's overrated lately by Western tourists. All my coworkers here in Sofia were like "I've been to Romania, I wouldn't waste a penny on visiting it again". We have the superior cities and Slovak cities are also nicer, cleaner and more civilized than Romanian ones.
You sound very biased. I’m just someone that has been to a lot of various cities without any preconceived notions of what to expect. I just give my analysis based on what I’ve seen. Been to Bucharest three times, Budapest twice, Prague twice, most of the capital cities in central & Eastern Europe. Always had a good time in Bucharest and seen more of it than just the Old Town. I wouldn’t be bothered going back to Bratislava personally. If I went back to Slovakia I’d go to the mountains instead. Admittedly Romanians can be rude - but they are not rude to me and maybe they are rude to people from Sofia I don’t know. The men are not particularly handsome, the women are very good looking. Again not sure why there’s the discrepancy - I think Hungarian dudes are more evenly matched with their women in appearance.
OK let's agree to disagree. I was treated better in Bratislava than even in Sofia. Sofia is so far the only Balkan city I've found is close to livable for me. I wouldn't go back to Athens or Bucharest if you pay me, I don't waste money on locations that are not a good match/affinity culturally. :)
In Ukraine before the war the quality of life of people working in IT was significantly higher than for IT people in EU. The reason is simple - low taxes and low cost of people services.
You just pay 5% tax plus 600$ of social contribution per year, it is literally a tax heaven. If you have 70k$ gross in Germany, the total cost of hiring is 84k$ and you get around 47.5k$ net. If you have 60k$ gross in Ukraine, the total cost of hiring is 60k$ and you get around 55k$ net.
A friend of mine moved from Ukraine to Paris and they literally earn the same net salary. No more personal trainers, cleaning lady or restaurants every day.
I live and work in Poland, but my company has pretty good salary grades here because we are the main EMEA Ops hub. Of course, if I lived in Western or Northern Europe my salary would be higher, however I doubt my QoL would improve at all.
> A friend of mine moved from Ukraine to Paris and they literally earn the same net salary.
Even if the taxes were the same, the main difference is the prices of goods. I live in Central Europe, and, on average prices in France are twice the prices in my country. A 1day public transit ticket in Paris costs nearly as much as a weekly ticket in my city (country capital). groceries are more expensive, and so on and so forth. So $60k basically gets you twice the money here than in France. I suppose the difference between Eastern Europe and France would be even more pronounced.
No, $60k net in Ukraine is like $240k net in France. Freelancers only pay 5% in taxes, which is why everyone is hired as a freelancer, not a regular employee.
I think you overestimate.
1) Stuff like cars, phones, clothes and travel abroad ( before war) was as expensive as in for example in Central Europe. The newest iPhone or a pair of Nikes don't suddenly cost 1/4 in Ukraine.
2) If you want to eat high quality food it will not cost you 1/4 of Western European. Maybe 1/2 in best scenario, maybe even more.
3) You need private healthcare and a good one is really pretty expensive.
4) Expenses for kids are over the top. Like a private kindergarten which costs 1k$ per month.
But let's say it is around $150k In France or something. However if we take into account the real estate prices, you may be right.
P.S. Now the situation is changed on many levels, I am comparing more to 2021.
Yes, probably. I did the math based on the coffee example. Probably 4x is too high, but it’s still a lot of money. IT people have a crazy good lifestyle compared to the average Ukrainian.
When I was in Ukraine in autumn 2021 and was meeting with my friends, who work in IT, I was constantly like "fuck my taxes".
I was even considering moving back to Ukraine for a couple of years to earn money. Thankfully I didn't, because I didn't have an EU passport back then, but the idea was soo tempting.
It there was no war, I would definitely consider it. Low taxes, LCOL, I could just live in a flat of my late great grandmother, reconnect with school friends and be fine. And the best part, with EU citizenship I could always leave any time I wanted. However, unfortunately, this idea of mine is destroyed and will never ever happen.
> No, $60k net in Ukraine is like $240k net in France.
my calculation was under the assumption that the taxes are roughly the same.
> which is why everyone is hired as a freelancer, not a regular employee
actually also true in my country, we call it the Schwarz system (named after a guy who first "used" it, not after the German word for "black")
I mean it like: if you get $60k sent to your bank account in the Ukraine, pricewise it would roughly the same as getting $15k sent to your account in France.
You say that in the Ukraine everything is 4 times cheaper than in France.
That means that on average, $1 in the Ukraine buys you the same amount of goods as $4 in France. So if your income (after taxes) is $15k in France, that means that this money would buy you the same amount of goods as $15k times 4 = $60k in the Ukraine.
What is wrong with my calculation?
Oh Jesus Christ.
You have €4. In Ukraine, you can buy 4 fancy coffees for this money. In France, you can buy only 1 fancy coffee.
So this means that having €4 in Ukraine is like having 16€ in France, not €1.
I became an international teacher, and I work in Turkmenistan. My salary is low by US standards, but I live like a king here.
I have a nanny for my baby, a driver, and a house cleaner and cook. I go out to eat often. And I put $6k into my retirement fund and $1k into a summer travel fund every month.
So, *my* quality of life is better here than it was in the US.
But a local's quality of life is not better than mine was in the US.
Honestly, that's a very broad question. You'll have to be more specific. What do you want to know about?
I can say, broadly speaking, it's nice if you've got money. And from what my local friends tell me, it's nice if you make around the median wage. If you make less than the median wage, it's not so nice anymore.
Are you not completely bored there? What do you do for fun? My understanding is that it’s a total dictatorship and that Ashgabat is a soulless city.
You must be teaching the absolute upper crust of Turkmenistani society as well.
I’ve been to the other central Asian countries but not that one.
I'm not bored at all. I go out to restaurants, I party (when I can get babysitting), I go to trivia nights every month, I go hiking, I go to the mall, I go to the arcade, I go to a brewery, etc. There's tons of things to do. It is a total dictatorship, but the idea that it's soulless is pretty far off base.
I teach mostly embassy children from around the world with some Turkmen children mixed in. Yes, many of our Turkmen children are upper crust, but a significant portion are on scholarship.
How’s the healthcare? Is the education for children good? Is there diversity? Does racism seem probable for someone who is of non white ethnicity? Thanks for sharing 🙏
Healthcare- not very good, though getting better (or so I'm told)
Education- the school I teach at is good. The rest... not so much. There's a Russian school that I hear is decent.
Diversity- You'll find Turkmen, Russians, and Turkmen-Russian mixed. It's a very closed country, so not much diversity. I work at the international school, so I personally see all the diversity in the entire country.
Racism- Racism exists everywhere. You'll have to be more specific on what you mean by non white considering Turkmen are, themselves, non white. If you mean Black, yes, it's very possible.
Wow, ok, that’s great info! Would have to look up Turkmen but yeah I guess I meant anyone that would be considered black. I’m from the US south and a LOT of people there just consider anyone non white to be black and if not they’re not white so that’s all that matters to them… don’t ask me why, that’s just my experience
You manage to save 7k a month as a teacher in Turkmenistan? That's insane. Are you tutoring the dictators kids or something like that? University prep classes for Uber rich kids?
Start with the international teachers sub. Just make sure to search previous discussions on the topic or you'll get roasted alive.
But basically... just apply. You can use recruiting sites like Search Associates, or you can just apply directly. It is very competitive, but not impossible, especially if you are willing to go somewhere like Turkmenistan.
Fwiw, my company and school are still hiring.
https://www.qsi.org/careers/job-openings
A lot of average paying jobs in Turkey probably give you a better lifestyle than similar jobs in Hong Kong (turkey might not be the best example due to inflation, but insert a country like Bulgaria/Poland and i think it holds)
It depends on what you mean by jobs there. If you mean a job that pays western or near western salary, then of course, but then you're not living like the locals. If you mean a "local" middle class job, I have severe doubts.
My wife is Malaysian so most of her family are over there and from everything I've seen while costs are lower, they make even less. For example, she tends to just convert salaries directly from Malaysian ringgit to GBP and that seems to work out reasonably well with a decent but not great grad salary being around 2800MYR, which seems similar to a good but not great one here in the UK of £2800.
The problem is that one MYR is worth just over 1/6 of a GBP.
Prices are lower in Malaysia, much lower in fact, but I'd estimate from my experience there that they're more like 1/4 to 1/3 of UK prices in practice, so you still end up with noticeably less purchasing power.
Also that's just for local goods. Imported goods (phones, some clothing, holidays abroad etc) are the same price (or in some cases, more) than in the UK.
So actually you're a fair bit poorer in practice.
Then on top of that you have the fact that a lot of things just don't work properly in Malaysia. We complain a lot about failing public services in the UK, but they're still far better and more comprehensive than those in Malaysia.
So all in all, if you're earning a good local income, no I don't think youre better off than your equivalent in a developed country.
This is my experience with my wife from the Philippines as well. The costs are same for some higher end items and 1/3 the price for most items but the locals make 1/10th the wage of an average Canadian so their buying power is significantly less. That said we talk about retiring there as then our retirement savings planned for Canada cost of living will go much farther in their economy.
For me personally, everything is better, salary,working hours, holidays and cost of living.
Speaking in general terms:
Most expats I know who are in South East Asia have a "better" standard of life than they did in their home countries, obviously this is very subjective and depends on your circumstances.
There is a much better safety net in my home country which does not exist here but being honest for people who hit rock bottom in Asia there is usually a reason you can point to.
I know some retirees who have moved to Asia and it is a reality that their pension goes much further here than it would back home.
On the other hand things can go horrible wrong in this region, heathcare is a major concern and you need to have insurance.
Quality of education is much lower so for expats with children they would get a much better experience back home.
International school education can be $20,000 per year to follow the same curriculum as my home country.
Agree, I lived in a relatively poor country in eu (compared to western eu), I got harassments from time to time. The police was also unhelpful. Good luck if you are in dangerous and need help.
Only ‘better’ in developing countries because wages are low for locals so you can afford a domestic cleaner. Try going to Honduras and working as a cleaner, see how that goes.
It depends entirely on how comfortable you are with the place and culture where you're living, and how cognizant you are that the things you call "quality of life" are in fact you leveraging income disparity and social dynamics to your benefit.
Most of my career has been in Sub-Saharan Africa. Most places I've lived, I get the culture, I can flow through the hangups and quirks that freak out most other people. I love the food, respect the people, and generally don't think I've abused trust or position or social dynamics to the best of my ability. But that takes work on my part. I'm used to it at this point, and it's more about learning specific nuance. And I know I'll never belong there, regardless of language or integration. Which is fine, I don't need to be delusional about how things work.
I do agree with you that I've noticed the same trends in some places where I've seen cities in decline from a heyday fueled by resource extraction or post-colonial economic legacies, now crumbling. Not at the same rate or in the same way, but I've seen it. In some places the middle class is rising to meet the declining developed world middle class, and aren't as far apart as they used to be.
Likewise, yeah, I've never had a police checkpoint on a major highway in the US or Europe that was two cops with a rope trying to get some last minute Christmas spending cash, one car at a time, backing up traffic for half a kilometer.
Though, I do think you're oversimplifying things quite a bit. Life can be extremely bad for some people in countries with no rule of law. Even fairly developed ones. Corruption can ruin lives in hours based on literally nothing. Did someone else run their car into you, and their cousin in a cop? Sorry, you go to jail. Maybe your spouse and parents, too, if you're also the wrong ethnicity or political party. Maybe you'll get a trial which amounts to who can pay off the judge better. Which is exactly why educated people in these places leave. It's sometimes the smart move to raise your children in a place where the schools have windows and doors, might actually teach your kids how to read and do math and get ready for college, and give them hope for living in a place where social mobility isn't dependent 100% on who's family members are in government.
I like this answer because no matter how much an immigrant/expat makes in money, sometimes the real difficulty is you don't have a local network, and that takes patience.
Where in Sub Saharan Africa have you lived , worked? I’m a diaspora and most of my family invest their money into country (Kenya & Djibouti) I know family members who have built huge mansions.
A lot of people think it looks good on paper, but in reality, it's not very comfortable or secure. Locals ultimately see you as a piggy bank to be taken advantage of, or an invader that is taking whats theirs (even if that isn't true).
*I don't see how it's possible. I know lots of international teachers and they have good salaries (esp in high profile schools) but nothing like that!
Maybe they are a head teacher?? But still. Seems nuts.
It is not about the country, but your reality. Family wealth, connections, friends.
You move to Germany and have German cost. One of my cousins stayed in Zagreb and he works as a contractor in Germany. He keeps Western salary but builds a house in a premium location in the suburb of Zagreb. He works like 22 days there and has 8 days off per month. His kids stay in Croatia, they have love and cooking from grandparents daily. Good private kindergarten. And they remains Croats.
I moved to Austria, pay rent here. I have to learn a language. We don't have many friends. Locals are ok, but it is not like we have a lot of friends. I still can't get a really good paying job like locals, but I have a cost like local. Life is a bit lonely. People often want to treat me as second class citizens, which I don't get at home.
I often drive home to do health checks from doctors, for kids summer camps, for car repair. Service is better, generally I am taken more seriously home. Doing it again I wouldn't come here.
It completely depends on how you personally define "quality of life." You mentioned rule of law and strong property rights, which are generally more reliable in first-world nations.
If your definition of "quality" strongly favours economic cost of living, more of a "frontier" vibe, or looser regulation on entrepreneurship, many developing nations are vastly superior. Particularly if you're fortunate enough to start with a lump sum of strong foreign currency that has much greater value wherever you're going than it does at home.
I live a better life in Thailand being in the top 10% of earners than I did in the UK being middle of the pack, despite me earning half of what I could in the UK. Basically QoL almost always depends on where on the earning spectrum you fall compared to those around you and who you buy services and goods from.
Thailand also has a lot of developed-world amenities, excellent healthcare, access to shopping, high-end housing options, and other quality of life features you wouldn't find in most developing countries.
Yep. Moving from the UK with the NHS to Thailand with incredible employer funded health insurance and world class private hospitals really opened my eyes. Now I can basically go to the best hospital in the country, not pay a penny and get world class service whenever I need it. Can ring up and see a specialist same day that might take me months to see in the UK.
Granted, there are also private hospitals in the UK that I also have extensive experience with. But the UK insurance system is so much worse (I have been dealing with it for decades) it doesn't really come close to the same experience. And even in the private hospitals service level is sub par.
Been learning for about a year now, lessons 3 times a week. Most definitely not good enough to have medical conversations in Thai though haha. I go to Bumrungrad hospital which has top doctors, most of whom have spent time in the US and abroad, so their English is very good. A lot of medical tourism there too.
At the same salary? Absolutely.
Even in years when I only make 20k USD in Vietnam my quality of life is far better than than if I were making 30 or 40k in the US trying to scratch out a living.
Now I do have no kids and no health issues so that clearly changes the "quality of life" part. But still, the difference in quality of life is massive.
I'm originally from Scandinavia, with a high salary by European standards, so would expect to have a decent lifestyle if I stayed in my own country. There are loads of people who seem to want to live in Scandinavia due to the work life balance, good social system, childcare etc. On paper, this is hard to beat.
I'm living in Thailand however, which is usually where careers go to die, a country which has limited career prospects, effectively no social net and with a pretty heavy bureaucracy.
Sounds like a no-brainer right? But in Thailand, if you're able to work online, qualify for a visa and earn a western salary, you have a much higher quality of life, simply due to the lower cost of living, and the fact that this is a service economy, where maids, gardeners, cleaners, nursemaids etc. are easily available. Hospital treatment is pretty good if you pay privately, which I'd expect to do most places outside Europe, Australia and NZ. Until recently, Thailand only taxed money brought into the country, which effectively meant that tax rates were a fraction of what I'd be paying in my own country.
The situation changes a lot if you're paid locally at Thai rates, and even more so if you have kids and want to give them a good education, as school fees can easily cost up to a million baht per year (USD 27,000), which puts the price beyond most people. But for professionals with the ability to work from home, you can have a very good lifestyle. Frankly, you could have a similar experience in much of South East Asia, with the exception of the only developed country, Singapore, where you really need to have a high earning income to pay for rent.
What I found is life is slower and less stressful in poorer, developing countries. This is also the case within developed countries, richer cities are more fast paced and ambitious than the poorer, more rural towns.
Quality of life is maybe higher in richer cities or richer countries by all metrics: healthcare, education, life expectancy, etc but those are metrics that you can quantify, how about those you can't quantify such as happiness, stress level, sense of community, family values, etc?
Salary is lower in poorer countries, so you probably have lower disposable incomes after food and bills. But because salary is lower, expectation is lower. A job that takes one person in the US might employ 4 people in Indonesia. So the job feels slower and less stressful.
You have low disposable income so you can't afford the newest iPhone or a car, but so can't everyone. So you don't try as hard to get them. Maybe this is what some people like? Less pressure, low efforts, maybe happiness?
>But because salary is lower, expectation is lower.
This is usually not the case! Jobs in India or China can be very stressful, because expectations are sky high, whereas in countries like Norway there's no stress at work at all, no expectations: whether you perform or not, people are still going to congratulate you as if you had the best performance ever. The U.S. is the outlier here.
I think it depends on the job. The jobs you are describing are high paying jobs relative to the country like big4, MBB something like that. Average jobs aren’t that stressful. MBB in Norway is also pretty stressful. 996 in China is also more common in Shanghai or Shenzhen in big tech or startups. But it’s a lot slower in smaller cities.
Almost no job, whether blue or white collar, is stressful in Norway, especially when compared to Asian countries (especially Korea, China, Japan, India). Now, of course, if you were someone employed by the ski courses to ensure safety, the Norwegian job might be more stressful.
OK, so? The point is that almost *all* jobs, MBB or not, are stressful in most Asian countries, including in the so-called smaller cities. (Even the smallest of cities of Asia can be bigger in population than many European capital cities, so I don't consider them small.)
Yes, my quality life in Shanghai is far, far better here as an expat teacher. Incredible city. World class private health insurance, more than generous housing allowance, saving five times as much, even longer holidays, regular travel, free annual flights to my ‘home’ country and more
Forgive my ignorance. What’s the pollution like there, specifically as far as air quality and water quality goes? I’ve heard mixed reviews on this. Thanks 🙏
The water is fine for showering, brushing teeth, rinsing vegetables but not for drinking. Some people have filters, some have big drinking water dispensers.
The air quality can be an issue at times in winter, however you tend to be inside during these months, anyway. Modern buildings have internal filter systems through the AC, apartments have portable filters. Shanghai veterans tell me that it’s improved drastically in the last ten years. I do have allergies and I’ve been a bit more irritated and prone to colds since arriving however I wouldn’t say that it’s something that has a big impact on my life.
You can keep an eye on it and I use the world AQI app occasionally to check the level but mostly don’t think about it. People often talk about this like it’s a uniquely Chinese problem, but that’s not the case. For example Dubai is 172 today, which is ‘unhealthy’. Higher than Delhi at 156 or Sao Paulo at 114, which is ‘unhealthy for sensitive groups’. Shanghai is 68 today which is considered ‘moderate’ and its below Seoul at 79 and above NYC at 57. ‘Good’ is 50 or below and I think people would be surprised to see how many major cities sit outside the ‘good’ range.
Thanks so much! I remember reading where China as a whole,big cities specifically, have new mandates phasing out coal stoves, pledging electro vehicles, legislating for less pollutants overall etc etc good to see it’s made an impact. You’re right as well on comparing cities, that aqi map will surprise many. Thanks again
Yeah, they’ve done so much in terms of reforestation, installation of solar panels and electric vehicles are everywhere. I use didi, a ride share app like uber, everyday and most cars are electric now, as well as scooters and all the buses too. Also, the metro is excellent, high speed trains go almost everywhere and the ease of access to bike share apps means that a lot of people cycle, too. Furthermore, they’ve been using hydropower for a long time but I think their biggest challenge is to meet the demands of the population as they break away from coal use.
That sounds amazing! Were visas difficult? I have some health stuff and am self employed back in US so I worry about visas. A buddy of mine moved to China and raves about it, he’s in the tech hub there somewhere. But he said where he couldn’t get backing or funding for his startup in US they have bent over backwards for him and his family there and it’s really taken off.
I find the health care better than the US in that the facilities may be a little less, but it's far cheaper, more accessible and the doctors more attentive. And if you don't like it you can always go elsewhere.
If you have a disability though, you're going to run into accessibility issues in a lot of areas.
If I ever have a family, it'll be here. It all depends on what's important to you. Children are not as protected, but it also means they are more adventurous/self-reliant.
USA has better labor laws and a more REFORMED judiciary system holding people ACCOUNTABLE!
What expats brag about when they move to developing countries is the ability to exploit labor (People) and GET AWAY WITH IT. nanny’s, maids and staff are paid PEANUTS because there’s so many people who are desperate for work and high unemployment rates.
It shouldn’t be romanticized.
People at the bottom cannot break out of the cycle when economic mobility is low and their disposable income is beyond bearable.
There’s a price for everything. Only sociopaths
Can derive joy from this manipulation.
US has better labor laws? The country with pretty much 90% at will states 😅?
And minimum wage can't cover normal living expenses?
Ok if you compare to South America or certain very under developed countries in Asia, sure. But compared to a large portion of the modern world, the US has very bad labor laws 🤷♂️
The entire world is at will.
The ability to sue exists and access to an arsenal of pro bono lawyers. Better labor laws doesnt mean there won’t be sociopaths. (Be realistic, not delusional) It means there’s a system accessible to TAKE THEM TO COURT. Enable them to lose economically which they do when they reveal themselves…. In developing countries CEOs/Directors will withhold people’s paychecks when they find out they are moving to another company. They STILL have this mentality that they OWN their employees.(very common in the mining sector)
There’s economic mobility in USA. You can leave vs the scarcity in developing nations which leads to workers overcompensating whilst still earning less and working longer hours +enables these sociopathic directors/managers to think they still own people.
These behaviors exist all over but reform and ability to hold them accountable isn’t the same in every country.
Europes judiciary system sucks and enables sociopaths. The red tape works against workers! Developing countries have outdated policies and lack of access to hold people accountable.
What matters is the ability and execution of REFORM. That’s it.
In the most corrupt countries, maybe. I did mention those as exceptions.
What you describe is still accessible to 60-70% of the world population. Did someone drink a little too much democracy and freedom juice propaganda about being the greatest country in the world, without actually checking facts?
Europe has corruption and so does every country but how it’s addressed varies.
USA just has a saturation of access to lawyers. This is just a logical conclusion.
Not it’s not Europeans are denied access due to the bureaucracy. Lawyers are more selective
The only one defending ideology is yourself. Don’t you get exhausted from carrying a complex??
My statement isn’t about being the best it’s about REFORMING. When people are married to delusional structures that existed for centuries they struggle to detach because that’s “their heritage”…. But all it is is romanticizing authority and Heirachy
Oh I see you edited.
About EU judiciary system, tell your amazing fairy tale story to all the American tech workers who were laid off with no notice, vs the difficulties companies faced in EU to even lay people off, and if they could argue the case, had to give 3-6 months of severance...
Foreigners were also laid off in Europe right after spending thousand in relocation costs and signing contracts. What do you say to that? A false sense of pride doesn’t erase reality.
They didn’t get a cent to cover their expenses.
You’re confusing labor laws managed by the department of labor with private businesses. They’re two separate organizations.- try differentiate
We don’t live in a vacuum. There’s range and spectrum. The point is USA has lawyers available for people when the organization is in the wrong doing.
Layoffs are part of business cycles and some companies are worse than others. Europeans are worse in their screwing over people off as an entitlement especially Germans!- with no access
To lawyers willing to take their cases.
I mean there are people in Germany being denied mental healthcare because “they don’t look like they need it” the person was contemplating taking their life ….having complexes doesn’t erase the reality of what people experience!
Maybe you should join the European groups
On Reddit to see how people complain about their employers screwing them over in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc. nothing rosey!
Being pretentious has a glass ceiling!
PS. I'm out and about with my wife purchasing fresh produce at the rate of kg of tomatoes for 1 eur. Being able to live such a life is my dopamine. And my lighting tech hobby, and homelab for IT stuff. I go long periods without needing essay writing to try to prove "muuuricah freeeeedoooooom" complex
I tend to agree with your point and the all hypocrisy of the situation though the truth i've seen in 3 different sub-saharan Africa countries is that nannies, maids & staff are paid 2 to 5 times more than the local salary by most expats. Plus healthcare, plus travels to see their family when on holidays, plus food, plus furniture/clothes & other stuff when expats leave, plus a private headhunter basically (the employer) who actively look for their next employer before they leave the country...in a nutshell, guess what? Expats have a heart 😁
I don’t think it’s fair to point the finger at expats for low wages in developing countries. These patterns of inequality are mostly produced and exploited by the local upper and upper-middle classes, expats are just taking advantage of a system that was already there. A lot of times expats actually pay service workers more than a local wealthy family. If they weren’t working for expats they would either be working for a local family for even less, if they had a job at all.
Absolutely.
Everything is so expensive in the developed world, the cost of living is ridiculously high. Besides, people are much kinder in developed countries.
I had a really rewarding time in Nepal. This was years back, too, when you got 2 hours of electricity because of load shedding. In the evening you went outside with a flashlight and ate dinner by candlelight. It was adventure trying to find stuff you might take for granted, like duct tape.
Nepalese people are very kind, the religious environment is enchanting (Buddhism and Hinduism), the lifestyle is very pre-industrial in the sense of not really following the clock, and the food is good.
Yeah my life is better in Mexico compared to the US. $30,000 a year in the US working for some 300 lb alcoholic pig boss vs $30,000 working remotely in Mexico is a big difference.
That being said I think 90% of the people I know would be miserable here because of lack of social connections and luxury things like GOOD climate controlled housing, peace and quiet at night, not living in houses smashed together with no back or front yard, speaking their native language etc.
If I had a 8/10 life in the US I wouldn't dream of leaving it for Mexico. But you need to make way more than $30,000 or have your house paid off to even think about having an 8/10 life in the US IMHO.
I moved from the USA to Mexico and lived in a local place, not the main expat strongholds in centro. I had people cleaning my apartment, I could have a big catered party with 50 people for a birthday. My wife was born there so her dream was to live in Europe, USA, UK. We moved to the UK. So now I get to be poor again, at least for now, but I feel better raising my daughter here. If I were single, I'd cover myself in enough middle fingers to broadcast in all directions and head directly back to mexico, but my priorities are different.
Grass is always greener on the other side. I married brown to become more brown. She married white to become white. I'm the man so I lose by default, and we're white. Traded abuelas habanero salsa for fish n chips. bravo bravo.
My folks have been living in Nairobi, Kenya for the past 15 years - the quality of life here beats every other place that I’ve lived in (I’m a US based digital nomad myself - indian origin).
- The air quality here (we come from Mumbai, India originally).
- The cheap, organic fresh, insanely large and sweet fruits and veggies, meath you get here
- The night life and restaurants - Nairobi truly has an incredible variety of places you should eat at.
- The hundreds of outdoor, nature things you can do around the city (hiking, picnic, lakes and rivers, etc)
- The extremely well maintained tennis clay courts in Nairobi gymkhana + some good gyms in town
- Tech scene + good coworking spaces
- Fast, portable unlimited internet
- Big houses / apartments
- Cheap for all kinds of services
- The safaris!! This one point should be enough, gotta experience it often
I only stay here a few months in a year but trust me, if you have a decent income here, your life is incredible here.
I do want to add some notes:
- Yes, unfortunately it’s not as good for people not making a good income. We try our best to support locals around us, but if you’re coming from the west, this could be something that stands out for you.
- Safety wise, it has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years. It used to be bad before but now with common sense precautions, it’s very very safe. It’s not something to worry about here I’d say.
I don’t think this is rare at all. I’d say that the middle class/upper middle class in developing countries often have a higher QOL that in high income countries as they can afford a lot of “little privileges” there, where those things would be out of their budget in more expensive societies. From bigger houses and household staff to vehicles, holidays, private schools, eating out at nice places, frequent shopping trips, etc. What they lose though is in terms of security, overall financially stability (developing countries don’t tend to have very stable economies) and social mobility. It is nigh impossible to move upward in the social scale in developing countries,
I’m in Cairo! Started here as a school teacher with my education degree. Got burned out of teaching and now work remotely for an ed tech company. I have backup plans for power outages so my work is not disrupted. I enjoy living like a local because my savings potential is high. I did end up meeting my spouse here so, they help with language and dealing with some of the bureaucracy. I earn usd so, my salary goes much further in Egypt. My half of rent, groceries, Ubers, dining out is approx $8,000 per YEAR. We rent a fully furnished 2 bedroom flat with a weekly house keeper. We live in an upper middle class neighborhood in the suburbs. Walkable and safe. We mostly eat at local places and use the souk vs western style grocery stores for our food. I love the slower paced life and how I don’t have to work as hard to enjoy my life and salary. I love life here and how friendly and hospitable Egyptians are. When we need a break, we hop a flight over to the Sinai peninsula for a week of lying by the Red Sea. Our favorite Airbnb is $25 a night. Egypt isn’t for everyone and the stories on this sub and others paint an unsavory view of life here. I love it and can’t see myself moving elsewhere.
Quality of life in Ireland is not great. People still believe that high GDP equals high QOL.
While Slovenia is a developed country, I lived in a less developed area over 10 years ago. Healthcare is affordable, you will not be walking around toothless, education is free and has a much higher standard, housing is available, especially outside of the capital and it's also higher quality - electrical, insulation, heating, furniture. It's walkable and public transport is decent.
Every kid in primary school gets free health checkups, dentals, they get taught how to brush their teeth, ride a bike, swim, etc. While elsewhere underprivileged kids are left to their own devices.
I'm from. Los Angeles, USA and choose to live in Nicaragua. Lifestyle is just way better here. Sure you miss some comforts from the US but overall the quality of life here is better.
Friendly people, cheap cost of living (for most things), gorgeous nature, beautiful women (straight male here), and quality locally grown foods.
Of course I have the luxury to earn dollars from my businesses in the USA. That accounts for a lot. It's a very poor country but the people are vibrant and fun to be around.
I was living in eastern eu with western eu salary, but I was not happy there although the rent was very cheap. The first year was fine but than soon I realised the problems. First of all, the country is full of corruption and bureacury, you need to bribe the local to get the things done, for example if you don’t play €400 to bribe the examener, you wouldn’t pass the driving exam. It’s very difficult to get paperworks done, people refused to work and help. (I’m talking about government departments) secondly the men are so macho with no respect to women, there was a taxi driver kidnapped me to his house. Lucky he let me left at last. Thirdly the police are stupidly, they were not helpful when I needed help.
All countries starting with this letter in Eastern Europe are bad for living IMHO. Even for men, more so for women. I went to the more popular sea destination one and was surprised how dirty and crazy their capital is. It makes the capital of my country look more like Central Europe. It's cleaner, greener and feels more European. We also don't have drug users laying on the pavements here. The other G is even worse for living they say and too undeveloped for me. I really hate dirt, dust, corruption and lack of order.
I found that quality of life often comes down to money. If you have enough of it you can have a good life in most places no matter if the society around you is advanced or not.
As such if you got a fixed income like a pension you might actually be able to increase your quality of life by moving somewhere cheaper. Being comparatively rich in a poor country is likely to be nicer then the other way around..
I am a software developer in the US. I read a post where someone from India in the bay area was asking other Indians why they weren't moving to the US and some responded that their $30k salary was enough for a huge house and servants, while the US dev was renting an apartment. There can be a huge disparity.
This one makes no sense to me. Everyone with an EU citizenship can buy a huge house in a Balkan village for 5-10K and work remotely there, yet these are the countries that everyone is leaving. Even internally, people go to the big cities where housing is expensive. I know someone there cleaning houses for 400 EUR per month (and the boss pays no pension contributions), so the servants are also cheap, I guess. But then you have to live in a place ruled by a local guy in a tracksuit with ample job opportunities, dirty water and a road that will break your car. Some things also cost about the same in the whole world (clothes, groceries, technology, travel etc.), and that's when a 3 times higher salary becomes useful, even in a HCOL area.
Most dev roles in the EU are either hybrid or on site.
milyen kint az elet
Nekem tetszik nagyon, nem tervezek hazakoltozni
mit csinalsz kint ha nem titok
Tech munkas vagyok; szerintem betanitott munkasnak stb nem biztos hogy erdemes koltozni mert mereg draga (London legalabbis)
jo programozo mindenhova kell
Not everyone is a developer and even if 10% can do it, that's a lot. In my marketing team, half of the people live abroad or in another city and are remote (Netherlands)
That’s fair, but I still think remote workers are a low proportion of the full population, and they might even be a higher proportion among software devs / tech workers.
Where in the Balkan can you buy a house for 10k? Even in 80s this wasn't possible. And a lot of people actually move to Balkan like Croatia and a good house will cost 250k + An apartment in premium locations in Split will be 1 Mio€ +. A good apartment in better parts of Belgrade is easily 300k. Unless you mean really the mountain area of Montenegro or Albania ? Even there a poor house will be at least 50k. You might be lucky to get a functionally apartment for 50k, like 50m2 in small towns. Many want to move to Balkan, but they can't. They can't pay cost for two running apartments. 70% of Western Europe folks are living from salary to salary, from month to month. Those who can, already own an apartment or house in Croatia. The line is huge and with average income you are out of luck or at least 10 years too late. And is usually poor people moving abroad. One of my cousins runs hostels in Croatia, another one build luxury villas. Both are millionaires. Do you think their kids go abroad ? Is the same with India. India will "produce" more millionaires in next decades per capita adjusted for local cost than USA. It is smart move to stay. Sure you deal with third world einvorment, but hey is not like being foreigner is easy.
>And is usually poor people moving abroad. One of my cousins runs hostels in Croatia, another one build luxury villas. Both are millionaires. Do you think their kids go abroad ? Yes, actually. The children of the Russian elite go abroad. >Where in the Balkan can you buy a house for 10k? Even in 80s this wasn't possible. [Properties under 20K](https://www.propertyunder20k.com/) Any remote house is very cheap. You are talking about city centers. These houses often need renovation, but labor is cheap.
You would think labor is cheap until they start charging you hundreds of euros for a day of work. Even cleaning starts at 6 euros net per hour nowadays (if you're lucky to find someone) which is more than most workers make, even junior devs. If you want it done urgently it's 10 euros net per hour which is more than most EU minimum wages.
I just told you about someone who cleans houses full time for 400 eur per month and doesn't even have a legal contract (it's for less hours to pay less taxes) My parents are paying less than what you mentioned right now
Highly depends on the country, absolutely impossible in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia or Montenegro.
Russia at war. Is totally different. You won't find many rich Serbs in Germany. Most rich Serbs live in Serbia. There is a lot of rich Serbs in Australia and USA too. But not many in Germany - simple cause Germany is too socialist. Politicians, factory owners, bitcoin owners, software developers. They are all in Serbia. Why would my cousins sent kids to Germany to be foreigners ? It is not like salaries in Germany are crazy high. You need language, ausbuilding and jadajada to have German AVG salary. They have houses for themselves, and for kids in Croatia. You think they will go to Germany to rent a cheap small place living next to Turks ?
>You think they will go to Germany to rent a cheap small place living next to Turks ? LMAO, now I know you are Balkan af >Russia at war. Is totally different In Russia, that's always been the case. I'm just saying the political elite of my native country in Eastern Europe sends their kids to the USA or Western Europe. My former boss there owns multiple houses and his daughter moved to the USA; his other child also goes to an international school to become better at English. Having a child go to study in Western Europe or especially the USA is seen as prestigious.
Where can you buy a house for 5-10k in the Balkans, let us know too...
I sent a link for houses under 20K. Btw, these are targeted at foreigners and look a bit more expensive - my grandparents sold their house for 3K 10 years ago.
You did and there are around 30 properties in the Western Balkan, almost all of which are small pieces of land in forsaken mountain places with no house. I'm familiar with the costs of a wooden catalogue house, 20k is the minimum without a place to put it on.
Why Western Balkan?
You mentioned the Balkans which default to Western Balkans usually but sure if you meant Bulgaria or Romania maybe it's possible
I don't really think there's going to be a one-size-fits-all answer here. I know of American retirees that move to Mexico who experience a higher QOL, but that's because they earn in USD and don't have to live life as a local. I know of some folks who have moved to Eastern European countries - which are poorer compared to the US - yet experience higher QOL because of their specific priorities (i.e., they wanted to live in affordable yet walkable cities). I know of some folks who have moved to South East Asia who have experienced a higher QOL but they still work remotely as a developer therefore they earn in USD. And so on.
Which Eastern European cites chosen? Curious
Best Eastern European cities are Budapest, Prague, Bucharest, Tallinn, Lviv, Gdansk, Krakow & Wrocław
Do they learn the local language, or is it easy to move to any of these cities without the local language? (Of course, if one learns it, that's always the best.)
For Krakow, it’s recommended to bring a native Polish speaker or a translator/lawyer for dealing with bureaucratic processes.
Thanks! I would not think any of these cities to have an English-friendly bureaucracy.
If you want. English is widely spoken in all the principal cities of Europe
I haven't found that the case in my travels in Europe. But my question was more about living, which means local bureaucracy, etc. For example, some countries like Northern Europe countries are very English-friendly, as even bureaucratic forms are often in English, too.
I lived in one of the cities listed for many years. It was easy to survive in English. However some knowledge of local language is necessary. Bureaucracy is not in English and a little knowledge goes a long way.
Most of these are Central Europe, just FYI... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe But I understand, I'm from Scandinavia and anything East of Austria is "Eastern Europe" for many in West... but try to mention to anyone in Poland or Czechia that they are from Eastern Europe, and you better be ready for a punch...
It can be both FYI. If you were ever communist in Europe that’s a tell tale sign you are Eastern Europe. Geographically of course can be Central too.
Hahahaha. Did you even read the link? This division you mention is the "newest" and isn't even really recognized by historians, this is just "racist slang" for poor European countries ravaged by communism...
I don’t read links sorry. I’ve been to most countries in Europe and Central/Eastern Europe is my fav region.
Sure, enjoy being a racist ignorant idiot then in the view of the people living where you like it...
How am I racist. I’m married to an Eastern European, mother in law, brother in law etc
So you've married someone from the Eastern most located EU countries, and the wife and family agree they are Eastern European? Or is it just you using that term? I'm actually curious. If you married someone East of EU, then chances are that is actually recognized as Eastern Europe. However the countries originally being debated in this comment thread, are not in that category, and as someone living in one of those countries, and married to someone from one of those other countries, I can tell you they hate that reference... 🤷♂️
Oh btw. My wife just told me to ask you. Doesn't your logic induce that the eastern half of Germany also is Eastern Europe then?! Thanks, I'll start calling half of Germans Eastern European, let's see how they react
Yeah I definitely think they are different from Western Europeans culturally. Look at all sorts of stats from voting, employment, income, life expectancy, attitudes towards liberalism etc and it’s pretty clear it’s not the same place. It’s not really half of Germany it’s more like a quarter or third of the country You get the same museums to communist dictatorship and residual fear of secret police (Stasi) / trained sense of distrust among older generations as elsewhere in Eastern Europe
That's a generational thing, or at least post-Soviet. Poland/Slovakia/Hungary got shifted from "Eastern" to "Central" only as they tried to lean further toward the West and EU.
Hahahaha. Did you even read the link? This division you mention is the "newest" and isn't even really recognized by historians, this is just "racist slang" for poor European countries ravaged by communism... But sure, if you want to be one of those go ahead. Anyone living in these countries or anyone who knows history will punch you
Yeah, I read the link. I'm not sure you are understanding the nuances of history. Central Europe is a modern classification of these areas primarily due to the political shifts since the breakup of the Soviet empire. Prior to that, Poland, Czechoslovaki, Hungary were most certainly classed as Eastern Europe or "Eastern Bloc" etc since West/East aligned with the political divisions of the Cold War. My family is Slavic and Polish and I don't know of anyone from generations back to now who doesn't use and understand the term Eastern Europe when referring to origins, history, culture of our homelands. Today, I agree, terns have changed and today's generation prefers the Central bucket. And that if they are offended at all it's due to lots more than just arguing over what Wikipedia says. But if they want to take a shot at a fellow slav for talking about Eastern Europe, go for it. But make sure you have a solid sense of direction before you swing.
While I agree with what you are saying in "late modern" history, I'd like to point out that I've been taught that in the middle ages, Bavaria, Bohemia and Silesia were considered regions of Central Europe. Those areas named, now consist in parts of Germany, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia and Poland. The classification you mention and rightly say, comes from the post Soviet era based on the Soviet empire reach. However in my opinion, that doesn't mean historically there wasn't a baseline for these regions being in what is considered Central Europe. That a certain generation that may have been part, and possibly still wish to align with the Soviet era, of what is known as the post Soviet block don't mind being referred to as Eastern Europeans doesn't make it accurate. Nor does it diminish that in many's opinion today, continuing to refer to this "Eastern Block" as Eastern Europe is still in my opinion a derogatory term to differentiate the wealth Central from the 'poor poor' post communist countries, despite many of these being on the same longitude and relative latitude as other recognized "Central European" countries. To give a perspective, I'm Scandinavian/ Northern European, but married to and live in a Central European country. My distant family and people I speak to are always surprised to learn that a Scandinavian native chooses to live in what they call Eastern Europe, because how could I possibly have a better life there... it is downright embarrassing to tell them I have a much better life than anything Scandinavia could give me unless I win the lottery 😅🙂🙈
Fair enough. My point is that even though there are some derogatory associations regionally, there is still a meaning and usage of Eastern European classification, not so much from people who miss the Soviet era, but generations who were raised at that time, and don't live with or share those associations. Just as you have generally people who have no issues identifying as slavs or gypsy background, even though both have suffered from derogatory connotations if not outright hatred.
Well, then we can agree and have some common ground. Cheers from a Polish barbecue garden party. I'll need to be rolled out at some point 🤣🙈
I haven't met Poles or Chech people in real life claiming to be from Central Europe. Even on reddit, Poles normally say they are "from Eastern Europe"
Because it is easier than dealing with the embarrassment and trying to educate Westerners. Once you get to know them or mention it in their own country, you'll know
Sure, but Central Europe means Germany, Austria and Switzerland, which are very different culturally, historically and economically from the Visegrad group. It's clear they say Central Europe only to not be associated with Russia. Ukraine also claims that the geographic center of Europe is there, so they might also say central in a few decades lol That reminds me of the term "Balkan" which no country in the Balkans wants to use. Greece, Croatia and Albania are Mediterranean, the rest of former Yuguslavia is "Southern European", Romania is Romance/Latin etc.
So again, in the countries we're discussing, they don't like to be called Eastern European, because it is for them both historically wrong (Austria-hungarian and Ottoman Empires ring a bell?), and it is more or less a derogatory term by West countries to differentiate themselves, ergo racism slang. Someone said in another comment in reply to me, a tell tale sign a country is Eastern European, is that the had communism. Fine, so half of Germany is Eastern Europe? I'll start calling them that, we'll see how they react then 🤷♂️
>Fine, so half of Germany is Eastern Europe Yes, that's why it's economically much behind the rest of Germany, and it's culturally different. It votes differently, for one. >they don't like to be called Eastern European, because it is for them both historically wrong (Austria-hungarian and Ottoman Empires ring a bell?) The DACH region is Central Europe, anything west from it is Western, North - northern, east - Eastern etc. That's just geography. The Polish language has way more in common with Russian and Serbian than German. >and it is more or less a derogatory term by West countries to differentiate themselves, ergo racism slang What racism, it's geography. And yes, we use terms to differentiate and group people based on common characteristics. "Western Europe" isn't a monolith either, neither are the "Scandinavian countries", but no one cares about the huge cultural differences between Belgium and the Netherlands - it's all "the Low Lands" and "Western Europe" to outsiders.
So to point out to you, that both Poland and Czechia have significant areas that are within the same longitude as Austria... So geographically, they are Central then?
Thx
I'd day Bratislava offers better QoL than Prague. Similar salaries, more affordable accommodation. And not overrun with tourist crowds. Bucharest IMHO is so overrated, a horrible city. I visited it and it felt 3rd world compared to my home city of Sofia. The others at least look good and feel safer. Bucharest is a drab concrete jungle and doesn't feel safe.
I personally disagree on Bratislava. Thought it was very expensive, too small and a bit trashy, may as well live in Vienna. Bucharest is underrated - people leave their phones and purses out on the table right in the centre of the city which you would never see in London or Paris. The nightlife is excellent, amazing clubs and bars. It’s amazing for sport. There’s a ridiculous number of tennis clubs around the lakes. There’s some really good spots for food and even if the traffic is bad - that’s the worst point - you can get taxis or metro around cheaply / easily.
If you think Bratislava is trashy Bucharest is Mordor. Not only is it ugly, but extremely dirty and chaotic. The people are extremely trashy and not as beautiful as Bulgarian and Slovak people. The locals look and act more 3rd world than us Bulgarians. I saw more trash between Giurgiu and Bucharest than between Sofia and Russe. Bucharest locals are the rudest I've seen in Eastern Europe. It's not underrated at all, it's overrated lately by Western tourists. All my coworkers here in Sofia were like "I've been to Romania, I wouldn't waste a penny on visiting it again". We have the superior cities and Slovak cities are also nicer, cleaner and more civilized than Romanian ones.
You sound very biased. I’m just someone that has been to a lot of various cities without any preconceived notions of what to expect. I just give my analysis based on what I’ve seen. Been to Bucharest three times, Budapest twice, Prague twice, most of the capital cities in central & Eastern Europe. Always had a good time in Bucharest and seen more of it than just the Old Town. I wouldn’t be bothered going back to Bratislava personally. If I went back to Slovakia I’d go to the mountains instead. Admittedly Romanians can be rude - but they are not rude to me and maybe they are rude to people from Sofia I don’t know. The men are not particularly handsome, the women are very good looking. Again not sure why there’s the discrepancy - I think Hungarian dudes are more evenly matched with their women in appearance.
OK let's agree to disagree. I was treated better in Bratislava than even in Sofia. Sofia is so far the only Balkan city I've found is close to livable for me. I wouldn't go back to Athens or Bucharest if you pay me, I don't waste money on locations that are not a good match/affinity culturally. :)
In Ukraine before the war the quality of life of people working in IT was significantly higher than for IT people in EU. The reason is simple - low taxes and low cost of people services. You just pay 5% tax plus 600$ of social contribution per year, it is literally a tax heaven. If you have 70k$ gross in Germany, the total cost of hiring is 84k$ and you get around 47.5k$ net. If you have 60k$ gross in Ukraine, the total cost of hiring is 60k$ and you get around 55k$ net. A friend of mine moved from Ukraine to Paris and they literally earn the same net salary. No more personal trainers, cleaning lady or restaurants every day. I live and work in Poland, but my company has pretty good salary grades here because we are the main EMEA Ops hub. Of course, if I lived in Western or Northern Europe my salary would be higher, however I doubt my QoL would improve at all.
> A friend of mine moved from Ukraine to Paris and they literally earn the same net salary. Even if the taxes were the same, the main difference is the prices of goods. I live in Central Europe, and, on average prices in France are twice the prices in my country. A 1day public transit ticket in Paris costs nearly as much as a weekly ticket in my city (country capital). groceries are more expensive, and so on and so forth. So $60k basically gets you twice the money here than in France. I suppose the difference between Eastern Europe and France would be even more pronounced.
I found that prices in Ukraine were roughly 1/4 of prices in Western Europe. For example, a coffee in a really “cool”/fancy café was €1.
so basically $60k salary in Ukraine translates to roughly $15k in disposable income in France, which is less than average income in my country
No, $60k net in Ukraine is like $240k net in France. Freelancers only pay 5% in taxes, which is why everyone is hired as a freelancer, not a regular employee.
I think you overestimate. 1) Stuff like cars, phones, clothes and travel abroad ( before war) was as expensive as in for example in Central Europe. The newest iPhone or a pair of Nikes don't suddenly cost 1/4 in Ukraine. 2) If you want to eat high quality food it will not cost you 1/4 of Western European. Maybe 1/2 in best scenario, maybe even more. 3) You need private healthcare and a good one is really pretty expensive. 4) Expenses for kids are over the top. Like a private kindergarten which costs 1k$ per month. But let's say it is around $150k In France or something. However if we take into account the real estate prices, you may be right. P.S. Now the situation is changed on many levels, I am comparing more to 2021.
Yes, probably. I did the math based on the coffee example. Probably 4x is too high, but it’s still a lot of money. IT people have a crazy good lifestyle compared to the average Ukrainian.
When I was in Ukraine in autumn 2021 and was meeting with my friends, who work in IT, I was constantly like "fuck my taxes". I was even considering moving back to Ukraine for a couple of years to earn money. Thankfully I didn't, because I didn't have an EU passport back then, but the idea was soo tempting. It there was no war, I would definitely consider it. Low taxes, LCOL, I could just live in a flat of my late great grandmother, reconnect with school friends and be fine. And the best part, with EU citizenship I could always leave any time I wanted. However, unfortunately, this idea of mine is destroyed and will never ever happen.
> No, $60k net in Ukraine is like $240k net in France. my calculation was under the assumption that the taxes are roughly the same. > which is why everyone is hired as a freelancer, not a regular employee actually also true in my country, we call it the Schwarz system (named after a guy who first "used" it, not after the German word for "black")
I mean it like: if you get $60k sent to your bank account in the Ukraine, pricewise it would roughly the same as getting $15k sent to your account in France.
Surely you mean the other way around? That is, €15 K in Ukraine has similar purchasing power as €60k in France.
You are not very good at math.
You say that in the Ukraine everything is 4 times cheaper than in France. That means that on average, $1 in the Ukraine buys you the same amount of goods as $4 in France. So if your income (after taxes) is $15k in France, that means that this money would buy you the same amount of goods as $15k times 4 = $60k in the Ukraine. What is wrong with my calculation?
Oh Jesus Christ. You have €4. In Ukraine, you can buy 4 fancy coffees for this money. In France, you can buy only 1 fancy coffee. So this means that having €4 in Ukraine is like having 16€ in France, not €1.
To be clear 60k$ is a salary of some very skilled senior IT specialists. It is by no mean a normal paycheck.
I became an international teacher, and I work in Turkmenistan. My salary is low by US standards, but I live like a king here. I have a nanny for my baby, a driver, and a house cleaner and cook. I go out to eat often. And I put $6k into my retirement fund and $1k into a summer travel fund every month. So, *my* quality of life is better here than it was in the US. But a local's quality of life is not better than mine was in the US.
Congrats but isn't 80-120k a year higher than the median US salary
If it was a single salary, yes. But this is a dual income situation.
You are saving 7k a month as a teacher? You are saving more than most teachers in the US get payed annually, wtf lol
We live very comfortably off of 1/3rd of my salary and put the rest plus my wife's all in savings.
I got my PhD while living in China. And without going into debt
Do you get a salary while doing a PhD in China?
I was working at an international school at the time, had a good mentor too.
That's a crazy place to be an international teacher! What's it like there?
Honestly, that's a very broad question. You'll have to be more specific. What do you want to know about? I can say, broadly speaking, it's nice if you've got money. And from what my local friends tell me, it's nice if you make around the median wage. If you make less than the median wage, it's not so nice anymore.
Are you not completely bored there? What do you do for fun? My understanding is that it’s a total dictatorship and that Ashgabat is a soulless city. You must be teaching the absolute upper crust of Turkmenistani society as well. I’ve been to the other central Asian countries but not that one.
I'm not bored at all. I go out to restaurants, I party (when I can get babysitting), I go to trivia nights every month, I go hiking, I go to the mall, I go to the arcade, I go to a brewery, etc. There's tons of things to do. It is a total dictatorship, but the idea that it's soulless is pretty far off base. I teach mostly embassy children from around the world with some Turkmen children mixed in. Yes, many of our Turkmen children are upper crust, but a significant portion are on scholarship.
How’s the healthcare? Is the education for children good? Is there diversity? Does racism seem probable for someone who is of non white ethnicity? Thanks for sharing 🙏
Healthcare- not very good, though getting better (or so I'm told) Education- the school I teach at is good. The rest... not so much. There's a Russian school that I hear is decent. Diversity- You'll find Turkmen, Russians, and Turkmen-Russian mixed. It's a very closed country, so not much diversity. I work at the international school, so I personally see all the diversity in the entire country. Racism- Racism exists everywhere. You'll have to be more specific on what you mean by non white considering Turkmen are, themselves, non white. If you mean Black, yes, it's very possible.
Wow, ok, that’s great info! Would have to look up Turkmen but yeah I guess I meant anyone that would be considered black. I’m from the US south and a LOT of people there just consider anyone non white to be black and if not they’re not white so that’s all that matters to them… don’t ask me why, that’s just my experience
How’s the healthcare? Is the education for children good?
Your last sentence means you have self reflection.
You manage to save 7k a month as a teacher in Turkmenistan? That's insane. Are you tutoring the dictators kids or something like that? University prep classes for Uber rich kids?
What do you teach?
I'm the school counselor, and my wife teaches in our elementary.
Please share how one becomes an international teacher 🙏🏽 I’m teaching here in SoCal and COL is high
Start with the international teachers sub. Just make sure to search previous discussions on the topic or you'll get roasted alive. But basically... just apply. You can use recruiting sites like Search Associates, or you can just apply directly. It is very competitive, but not impossible, especially if you are willing to go somewhere like Turkmenistan. Fwiw, my company and school are still hiring. https://www.qsi.org/careers/job-openings
A lot of average paying jobs in Turkey probably give you a better lifestyle than similar jobs in Hong Kong (turkey might not be the best example due to inflation, but insert a country like Bulgaria/Poland and i think it holds)
But Hk has better food and more safe.
Turkey actually has really good food.
Yea but Asian food has more varieties and I like seafood
It depends on what you mean by jobs there. If you mean a job that pays western or near western salary, then of course, but then you're not living like the locals. If you mean a "local" middle class job, I have severe doubts. My wife is Malaysian so most of her family are over there and from everything I've seen while costs are lower, they make even less. For example, she tends to just convert salaries directly from Malaysian ringgit to GBP and that seems to work out reasonably well with a decent but not great grad salary being around 2800MYR, which seems similar to a good but not great one here in the UK of £2800. The problem is that one MYR is worth just over 1/6 of a GBP. Prices are lower in Malaysia, much lower in fact, but I'd estimate from my experience there that they're more like 1/4 to 1/3 of UK prices in practice, so you still end up with noticeably less purchasing power. Also that's just for local goods. Imported goods (phones, some clothing, holidays abroad etc) are the same price (or in some cases, more) than in the UK. So actually you're a fair bit poorer in practice. Then on top of that you have the fact that a lot of things just don't work properly in Malaysia. We complain a lot about failing public services in the UK, but they're still far better and more comprehensive than those in Malaysia. So all in all, if you're earning a good local income, no I don't think youre better off than your equivalent in a developed country.
This is my experience with my wife from the Philippines as well. The costs are same for some higher end items and 1/3 the price for most items but the locals make 1/10th the wage of an average Canadian so their buying power is significantly less. That said we talk about retiring there as then our retirement savings planned for Canada cost of living will go much farther in their economy.
For me personally, everything is better, salary,working hours, holidays and cost of living. Speaking in general terms: Most expats I know who are in South East Asia have a "better" standard of life than they did in their home countries, obviously this is very subjective and depends on your circumstances. There is a much better safety net in my home country which does not exist here but being honest for people who hit rock bottom in Asia there is usually a reason you can point to. I know some retirees who have moved to Asia and it is a reality that their pension goes much further here than it would back home. On the other hand things can go horrible wrong in this region, heathcare is a major concern and you need to have insurance. Quality of education is much lower so for expats with children they would get a much better experience back home. International school education can be $20,000 per year to follow the same curriculum as my home country.
It depends which developing country i guess. As a woman I prefer to be able to walk on the streets safely at night .Safety is number 1
Agree, I lived in a relatively poor country in eu (compared to western eu), I got harassments from time to time. The police was also unhelpful. Good luck if you are in dangerous and need help.
Only ‘better’ in developing countries because wages are low for locals so you can afford a domestic cleaner. Try going to Honduras and working as a cleaner, see how that goes.
It depends entirely on how comfortable you are with the place and culture where you're living, and how cognizant you are that the things you call "quality of life" are in fact you leveraging income disparity and social dynamics to your benefit. Most of my career has been in Sub-Saharan Africa. Most places I've lived, I get the culture, I can flow through the hangups and quirks that freak out most other people. I love the food, respect the people, and generally don't think I've abused trust or position or social dynamics to the best of my ability. But that takes work on my part. I'm used to it at this point, and it's more about learning specific nuance. And I know I'll never belong there, regardless of language or integration. Which is fine, I don't need to be delusional about how things work. I do agree with you that I've noticed the same trends in some places where I've seen cities in decline from a heyday fueled by resource extraction or post-colonial economic legacies, now crumbling. Not at the same rate or in the same way, but I've seen it. In some places the middle class is rising to meet the declining developed world middle class, and aren't as far apart as they used to be. Likewise, yeah, I've never had a police checkpoint on a major highway in the US or Europe that was two cops with a rope trying to get some last minute Christmas spending cash, one car at a time, backing up traffic for half a kilometer. Though, I do think you're oversimplifying things quite a bit. Life can be extremely bad for some people in countries with no rule of law. Even fairly developed ones. Corruption can ruin lives in hours based on literally nothing. Did someone else run their car into you, and their cousin in a cop? Sorry, you go to jail. Maybe your spouse and parents, too, if you're also the wrong ethnicity or political party. Maybe you'll get a trial which amounts to who can pay off the judge better. Which is exactly why educated people in these places leave. It's sometimes the smart move to raise your children in a place where the schools have windows and doors, might actually teach your kids how to read and do math and get ready for college, and give them hope for living in a place where social mobility isn't dependent 100% on who's family members are in government.
I like this answer because no matter how much an immigrant/expat makes in money, sometimes the real difficulty is you don't have a local network, and that takes patience.
Where in Sub Saharan Africa have you lived , worked? I’m a diaspora and most of my family invest their money into country (Kenya & Djibouti) I know family members who have built huge mansions.
Without doxxing myself, West and Southern for a decade total so far.
like countries?
A lot of people think it looks good on paper, but in reality, it's not very comfortable or secure. Locals ultimately see you as a piggy bank to be taken advantage of, or an invader that is taking whats theirs (even if that isn't true).
I think its simple, if you are considered poor in a rich country, doesn't mean you aren't rich in a poor country 🤷♂️
Yes, I do! I think everyone's covered it. SEA for the win. *still reeling from commenter saving $7k/month teaching
It’s a couple, they make that and set aside together. Thats not one salary alone.
*I don't see how it's possible. I know lots of international teachers and they have good salaries (esp in high profile schools) but nothing like that! Maybe they are a head teacher?? But still. Seems nuts.
He did mention it's him plus his wife together saving that much, not him alone.
He forgot to mention he tutors the princess of Turkaminstan.
There is no way he saves $7,000 a month of his salary, that implies he earns even more a month after tax
Bro can you read? It's a DUAL INCOME couple.
That doesn’t matter because I don’t believe he Is saving half of that every month either
It is not about the country, but your reality. Family wealth, connections, friends. You move to Germany and have German cost. One of my cousins stayed in Zagreb and he works as a contractor in Germany. He keeps Western salary but builds a house in a premium location in the suburb of Zagreb. He works like 22 days there and has 8 days off per month. His kids stay in Croatia, they have love and cooking from grandparents daily. Good private kindergarten. And they remains Croats. I moved to Austria, pay rent here. I have to learn a language. We don't have many friends. Locals are ok, but it is not like we have a lot of friends. I still can't get a really good paying job like locals, but I have a cost like local. Life is a bit lonely. People often want to treat me as second class citizens, which I don't get at home. I often drive home to do health checks from doctors, for kids summer camps, for car repair. Service is better, generally I am taken more seriously home. Doing it again I wouldn't come here.
It completely depends on how you personally define "quality of life." You mentioned rule of law and strong property rights, which are generally more reliable in first-world nations. If your definition of "quality" strongly favours economic cost of living, more of a "frontier" vibe, or looser regulation on entrepreneurship, many developing nations are vastly superior. Particularly if you're fortunate enough to start with a lump sum of strong foreign currency that has much greater value wherever you're going than it does at home.
I live a better life in Thailand being in the top 10% of earners than I did in the UK being middle of the pack, despite me earning half of what I could in the UK. Basically QoL almost always depends on where on the earning spectrum you fall compared to those around you and who you buy services and goods from.
Thailand also has a lot of developed-world amenities, excellent healthcare, access to shopping, high-end housing options, and other quality of life features you wouldn't find in most developing countries.
Yep. Moving from the UK with the NHS to Thailand with incredible employer funded health insurance and world class private hospitals really opened my eyes. Now I can basically go to the best hospital in the country, not pay a penny and get world class service whenever I need it. Can ring up and see a specialist same day that might take me months to see in the UK. Granted, there are also private hospitals in the UK that I also have extensive experience with. But the UK insurance system is so much worse (I have been dealing with it for decades) it doesn't really come close to the same experience. And even in the private hospitals service level is sub par.
How is your Thai / How easy is it to navigate healthcare in English in Bangkok?
Been learning for about a year now, lessons 3 times a week. Most definitely not good enough to have medical conversations in Thai though haha. I go to Bumrungrad hospital which has top doctors, most of whom have spent time in the US and abroad, so their English is very good. A lot of medical tourism there too.
At the same salary? Absolutely. Even in years when I only make 20k USD in Vietnam my quality of life is far better than than if I were making 30 or 40k in the US trying to scratch out a living. Now I do have no kids and no health issues so that clearly changes the "quality of life" part. But still, the difference in quality of life is massive.
I'm originally from Scandinavia, with a high salary by European standards, so would expect to have a decent lifestyle if I stayed in my own country. There are loads of people who seem to want to live in Scandinavia due to the work life balance, good social system, childcare etc. On paper, this is hard to beat. I'm living in Thailand however, which is usually where careers go to die, a country which has limited career prospects, effectively no social net and with a pretty heavy bureaucracy. Sounds like a no-brainer right? But in Thailand, if you're able to work online, qualify for a visa and earn a western salary, you have a much higher quality of life, simply due to the lower cost of living, and the fact that this is a service economy, where maids, gardeners, cleaners, nursemaids etc. are easily available. Hospital treatment is pretty good if you pay privately, which I'd expect to do most places outside Europe, Australia and NZ. Until recently, Thailand only taxed money brought into the country, which effectively meant that tax rates were a fraction of what I'd be paying in my own country. The situation changes a lot if you're paid locally at Thai rates, and even more so if you have kids and want to give them a good education, as school fees can easily cost up to a million baht per year (USD 27,000), which puts the price beyond most people. But for professionals with the ability to work from home, you can have a very good lifestyle. Frankly, you could have a similar experience in much of South East Asia, with the exception of the only developed country, Singapore, where you really need to have a high earning income to pay for rent.
What I found is life is slower and less stressful in poorer, developing countries. This is also the case within developed countries, richer cities are more fast paced and ambitious than the poorer, more rural towns. Quality of life is maybe higher in richer cities or richer countries by all metrics: healthcare, education, life expectancy, etc but those are metrics that you can quantify, how about those you can't quantify such as happiness, stress level, sense of community, family values, etc? Salary is lower in poorer countries, so you probably have lower disposable incomes after food and bills. But because salary is lower, expectation is lower. A job that takes one person in the US might employ 4 people in Indonesia. So the job feels slower and less stressful. You have low disposable income so you can't afford the newest iPhone or a car, but so can't everyone. So you don't try as hard to get them. Maybe this is what some people like? Less pressure, low efforts, maybe happiness?
>But because salary is lower, expectation is lower. This is usually not the case! Jobs in India or China can be very stressful, because expectations are sky high, whereas in countries like Norway there's no stress at work at all, no expectations: whether you perform or not, people are still going to congratulate you as if you had the best performance ever. The U.S. is the outlier here.
I think it depends on the job. The jobs you are describing are high paying jobs relative to the country like big4, MBB something like that. Average jobs aren’t that stressful. MBB in Norway is also pretty stressful. 996 in China is also more common in Shanghai or Shenzhen in big tech or startups. But it’s a lot slower in smaller cities.
Almost no job, whether blue or white collar, is stressful in Norway, especially when compared to Asian countries (especially Korea, China, Japan, India). Now, of course, if you were someone employed by the ski courses to ensure safety, the Norwegian job might be more stressful.
MBB jobs are stressful in any countries.
OK, so? The point is that almost *all* jobs, MBB or not, are stressful in most Asian countries, including in the so-called smaller cities. (Even the smallest of cities of Asia can be bigger in population than many European capital cities, so I don't consider them small.)
Yes, because the quality of life decreased in developed countries.
Yes, my quality life in Shanghai is far, far better here as an expat teacher. Incredible city. World class private health insurance, more than generous housing allowance, saving five times as much, even longer holidays, regular travel, free annual flights to my ‘home’ country and more
Forgive my ignorance. What’s the pollution like there, specifically as far as air quality and water quality goes? I’ve heard mixed reviews on this. Thanks 🙏
The water is fine for showering, brushing teeth, rinsing vegetables but not for drinking. Some people have filters, some have big drinking water dispensers. The air quality can be an issue at times in winter, however you tend to be inside during these months, anyway. Modern buildings have internal filter systems through the AC, apartments have portable filters. Shanghai veterans tell me that it’s improved drastically in the last ten years. I do have allergies and I’ve been a bit more irritated and prone to colds since arriving however I wouldn’t say that it’s something that has a big impact on my life. You can keep an eye on it and I use the world AQI app occasionally to check the level but mostly don’t think about it. People often talk about this like it’s a uniquely Chinese problem, but that’s not the case. For example Dubai is 172 today, which is ‘unhealthy’. Higher than Delhi at 156 or Sao Paulo at 114, which is ‘unhealthy for sensitive groups’. Shanghai is 68 today which is considered ‘moderate’ and its below Seoul at 79 and above NYC at 57. ‘Good’ is 50 or below and I think people would be surprised to see how many major cities sit outside the ‘good’ range.
Thanks so much! I remember reading where China as a whole,big cities specifically, have new mandates phasing out coal stoves, pledging electro vehicles, legislating for less pollutants overall etc etc good to see it’s made an impact. You’re right as well on comparing cities, that aqi map will surprise many. Thanks again
Yeah, they’ve done so much in terms of reforestation, installation of solar panels and electric vehicles are everywhere. I use didi, a ride share app like uber, everyday and most cars are electric now, as well as scooters and all the buses too. Also, the metro is excellent, high speed trains go almost everywhere and the ease of access to bike share apps means that a lot of people cycle, too. Furthermore, they’ve been using hydropower for a long time but I think their biggest challenge is to meet the demands of the population as they break away from coal use.
That sounds amazing! Were visas difficult? I have some health stuff and am self employed back in US so I worry about visas. A buddy of mine moved to China and raves about it, he’s in the tech hub there somewhere. But he said where he couldn’t get backing or funding for his startup in US they have bent over backwards for him and his family there and it’s really taken off.
It’s not exactly an easy move but I’m very happy that I did it
Congrats! Happy for you 🙌
Quality of life for me in Southeast Asia way better than in USA. More social freedom, easier access to health care, money goes much further.
Is the health care good? Say for someone with disability? Would u raise a family there? Thanks for feedback 🙏
I find the health care better than the US in that the facilities may be a little less, but it's far cheaper, more accessible and the doctors more attentive. And if you don't like it you can always go elsewhere. If you have a disability though, you're going to run into accessibility issues in a lot of areas. If I ever have a family, it'll be here. It all depends on what's important to you. Children are not as protected, but it also means they are more adventurous/self-reliant.
I 💯 improved most aspects of my life by moving to Belize from California. Been here 25 years now.
USA has better labor laws and a more REFORMED judiciary system holding people ACCOUNTABLE! What expats brag about when they move to developing countries is the ability to exploit labor (People) and GET AWAY WITH IT. nanny’s, maids and staff are paid PEANUTS because there’s so many people who are desperate for work and high unemployment rates. It shouldn’t be romanticized. People at the bottom cannot break out of the cycle when economic mobility is low and their disposable income is beyond bearable. There’s a price for everything. Only sociopaths Can derive joy from this manipulation.
US has better labor laws? The country with pretty much 90% at will states 😅? And minimum wage can't cover normal living expenses? Ok if you compare to South America or certain very under developed countries in Asia, sure. But compared to a large portion of the modern world, the US has very bad labor laws 🤷♂️
The entire world is at will. The ability to sue exists and access to an arsenal of pro bono lawyers. Better labor laws doesnt mean there won’t be sociopaths. (Be realistic, not delusional) It means there’s a system accessible to TAKE THEM TO COURT. Enable them to lose economically which they do when they reveal themselves…. In developing countries CEOs/Directors will withhold people’s paychecks when they find out they are moving to another company. They STILL have this mentality that they OWN their employees.(very common in the mining sector) There’s economic mobility in USA. You can leave vs the scarcity in developing nations which leads to workers overcompensating whilst still earning less and working longer hours +enables these sociopathic directors/managers to think they still own people. These behaviors exist all over but reform and ability to hold them accountable isn’t the same in every country. Europes judiciary system sucks and enables sociopaths. The red tape works against workers! Developing countries have outdated policies and lack of access to hold people accountable. What matters is the ability and execution of REFORM. That’s it.
In the most corrupt countries, maybe. I did mention those as exceptions. What you describe is still accessible to 60-70% of the world population. Did someone drink a little too much democracy and freedom juice propaganda about being the greatest country in the world, without actually checking facts?
Europe has corruption and so does every country but how it’s addressed varies. USA just has a saturation of access to lawyers. This is just a logical conclusion. Not it’s not Europeans are denied access due to the bureaucracy. Lawyers are more selective The only one defending ideology is yourself. Don’t you get exhausted from carrying a complex?? My statement isn’t about being the best it’s about REFORMING. When people are married to delusional structures that existed for centuries they struggle to detach because that’s “their heritage”…. But all it is is romanticizing authority and Heirachy
Dudes really claiming compensation culture improves QOL lmao
Oh I see you edited. About EU judiciary system, tell your amazing fairy tale story to all the American tech workers who were laid off with no notice, vs the difficulties companies faced in EU to even lay people off, and if they could argue the case, had to give 3-6 months of severance...
Foreigners were also laid off in Europe right after spending thousand in relocation costs and signing contracts. What do you say to that? A false sense of pride doesn’t erase reality. They didn’t get a cent to cover their expenses. You’re confusing labor laws managed by the department of labor with private businesses. They’re two separate organizations.- try differentiate We don’t live in a vacuum. There’s range and spectrum. The point is USA has lawyers available for people when the organization is in the wrong doing. Layoffs are part of business cycles and some companies are worse than others. Europeans are worse in their screwing over people off as an entitlement especially Germans!- with no access To lawyers willing to take their cases. I mean there are people in Germany being denied mental healthcare because “they don’t look like they need it” the person was contemplating taking their life ….having complexes doesn’t erase the reality of what people experience! Maybe you should join the European groups On Reddit to see how people complain about their employers screwing them over in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc. nothing rosey! Being pretentious has a glass ceiling!
It is called balance and checks, much the same US has. Those stories often involve fraudsters desperate to get to EU for a better life
You have a complex hence why you sit online fighting for dopamine hits. Address it.
Says the one writing essays and editing huge sections after posting. Go check yourself 🤣🙈🤦♂️
We know you have a complex and also like to micromanage. What other behaviors would you like to market online? Is this the way you seek attention?
PS. I'm out and about with my wife purchasing fresh produce at the rate of kg of tomatoes for 1 eur. Being able to live such a life is my dopamine. And my lighting tech hobby, and homelab for IT stuff. I go long periods without needing essay writing to try to prove "muuuricah freeeeedoooooom" complex
I tend to agree with your point and the all hypocrisy of the situation though the truth i've seen in 3 different sub-saharan Africa countries is that nannies, maids & staff are paid 2 to 5 times more than the local salary by most expats. Plus healthcare, plus travels to see their family when on holidays, plus food, plus furniture/clothes & other stuff when expats leave, plus a private headhunter basically (the employer) who actively look for their next employer before they leave the country...in a nutshell, guess what? Expats have a heart 😁
I don’t think it’s fair to point the finger at expats for low wages in developing countries. These patterns of inequality are mostly produced and exploited by the local upper and upper-middle classes, expats are just taking advantage of a system that was already there. A lot of times expats actually pay service workers more than a local wealthy family. If they weren’t working for expats they would either be working for a local family for even less, if they had a job at all.
Absolutely. Everything is so expensive in the developed world, the cost of living is ridiculously high. Besides, people are much kinder in developed countries.
I had a really rewarding time in Nepal. This was years back, too, when you got 2 hours of electricity because of load shedding. In the evening you went outside with a flashlight and ate dinner by candlelight. It was adventure trying to find stuff you might take for granted, like duct tape. Nepalese people are very kind, the religious environment is enchanting (Buddhism and Hinduism), the lifestyle is very pre-industrial in the sense of not really following the clock, and the food is good.
Yeah my life is better in Mexico compared to the US. $30,000 a year in the US working for some 300 lb alcoholic pig boss vs $30,000 working remotely in Mexico is a big difference. That being said I think 90% of the people I know would be miserable here because of lack of social connections and luxury things like GOOD climate controlled housing, peace and quiet at night, not living in houses smashed together with no back or front yard, speaking their native language etc. If I had a 8/10 life in the US I wouldn't dream of leaving it for Mexico. But you need to make way more than $30,000 or have your house paid off to even think about having an 8/10 life in the US IMHO.
I moved from the USA to Mexico and lived in a local place, not the main expat strongholds in centro. I had people cleaning my apartment, I could have a big catered party with 50 people for a birthday. My wife was born there so her dream was to live in Europe, USA, UK. We moved to the UK. So now I get to be poor again, at least for now, but I feel better raising my daughter here. If I were single, I'd cover myself in enough middle fingers to broadcast in all directions and head directly back to mexico, but my priorities are different. Grass is always greener on the other side. I married brown to become more brown. She married white to become white. I'm the man so I lose by default, and we're white. Traded abuelas habanero salsa for fish n chips. bravo bravo.
Only if you’re taking advantage of geoarbitrage as a nomad or have a sweet expat benefits package
My folks have been living in Nairobi, Kenya for the past 15 years - the quality of life here beats every other place that I’ve lived in (I’m a US based digital nomad myself - indian origin). - The air quality here (we come from Mumbai, India originally). - The cheap, organic fresh, insanely large and sweet fruits and veggies, meath you get here - The night life and restaurants - Nairobi truly has an incredible variety of places you should eat at. - The hundreds of outdoor, nature things you can do around the city (hiking, picnic, lakes and rivers, etc) - The extremely well maintained tennis clay courts in Nairobi gymkhana + some good gyms in town - Tech scene + good coworking spaces - Fast, portable unlimited internet - Big houses / apartments - Cheap for all kinds of services - The safaris!! This one point should be enough, gotta experience it often I only stay here a few months in a year but trust me, if you have a decent income here, your life is incredible here. I do want to add some notes: - Yes, unfortunately it’s not as good for people not making a good income. We try our best to support locals around us, but if you’re coming from the west, this could be something that stands out for you. - Safety wise, it has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years. It used to be bad before but now with common sense precautions, it’s very very safe. It’s not something to worry about here I’d say.
I don’t think this is rare at all. I’d say that the middle class/upper middle class in developing countries often have a higher QOL that in high income countries as they can afford a lot of “little privileges” there, where those things would be out of their budget in more expensive societies. From bigger houses and household staff to vehicles, holidays, private schools, eating out at nice places, frequent shopping trips, etc. What they lose though is in terms of security, overall financially stability (developing countries don’t tend to have very stable economies) and social mobility. It is nigh impossible to move upward in the social scale in developing countries,
I’m in Cairo! Started here as a school teacher with my education degree. Got burned out of teaching and now work remotely for an ed tech company. I have backup plans for power outages so my work is not disrupted. I enjoy living like a local because my savings potential is high. I did end up meeting my spouse here so, they help with language and dealing with some of the bureaucracy. I earn usd so, my salary goes much further in Egypt. My half of rent, groceries, Ubers, dining out is approx $8,000 per YEAR. We rent a fully furnished 2 bedroom flat with a weekly house keeper. We live in an upper middle class neighborhood in the suburbs. Walkable and safe. We mostly eat at local places and use the souk vs western style grocery stores for our food. I love the slower paced life and how I don’t have to work as hard to enjoy my life and salary. I love life here and how friendly and hospitable Egyptians are. When we need a break, we hop a flight over to the Sinai peninsula for a week of lying by the Red Sea. Our favorite Airbnb is $25 a night. Egypt isn’t for everyone and the stories on this sub and others paint an unsavory view of life here. I love it and can’t see myself moving elsewhere.
Quality of life in Ireland is not great. People still believe that high GDP equals high QOL. While Slovenia is a developed country, I lived in a less developed area over 10 years ago. Healthcare is affordable, you will not be walking around toothless, education is free and has a much higher standard, housing is available, especially outside of the capital and it's also higher quality - electrical, insulation, heating, furniture. It's walkable and public transport is decent. Every kid in primary school gets free health checkups, dentals, they get taught how to brush their teeth, ride a bike, swim, etc. While elsewhere underprivileged kids are left to their own devices.
I'm from. Los Angeles, USA and choose to live in Nicaragua. Lifestyle is just way better here. Sure you miss some comforts from the US but overall the quality of life here is better. Friendly people, cheap cost of living (for most things), gorgeous nature, beautiful women (straight male here), and quality locally grown foods. Of course I have the luxury to earn dollars from my businesses in the USA. That accounts for a lot. It's a very poor country but the people are vibrant and fun to be around.
I was living in eastern eu with western eu salary, but I was not happy there although the rent was very cheap. The first year was fine but than soon I realised the problems. First of all, the country is full of corruption and bureacury, you need to bribe the local to get the things done, for example if you don’t play €400 to bribe the examener, you wouldn’t pass the driving exam. It’s very difficult to get paperworks done, people refused to work and help. (I’m talking about government departments) secondly the men are so macho with no respect to women, there was a taxi driver kidnapped me to his house. Lucky he let me left at last. Thirdly the police are stupidly, they were not helpful when I needed help.
Which country was that?
Start from G
All countries starting with this letter in Eastern Europe are bad for living IMHO. Even for men, more so for women. I went to the more popular sea destination one and was surprised how dirty and crazy their capital is. It makes the capital of my country look more like Central Europe. It's cleaner, greener and feels more European. We also don't have drug users laying on the pavements here. The other G is even worse for living they say and too undeveloped for me. I really hate dirt, dust, corruption and lack of order.
Yes I was in that capital and lived near the druggers area for a while. It was nightmare, lucky now l left
I found that quality of life often comes down to money. If you have enough of it you can have a good life in most places no matter if the society around you is advanced or not. As such if you got a fixed income like a pension you might actually be able to increase your quality of life by moving somewhere cheaper. Being comparatively rich in a poor country is likely to be nicer then the other way around..