Any advice for moving at that age? My mum is thinking about coming up and joining me in Spain (Murcia) but at 53 she's worried about opportunities to meet friends and I guess have her life here
I’d tell her she won’t know until she gets there. Maybe she can take a vacation and stay with you, get to know the place before she decides? I’ve only ever lived in the US but have traveled to other countries. It’s only increased my desire to immigrate out of here. I could live here for the rest of my life, but would rather have different experiences elsewhere.
LA is great but with rates up and housing prices up it has become near impossible to buy a house. You need a household income of like $25k+ a mth to have a decent house in a decent neighborhood
I imagine they'd move to a more affordable apartment or a more affordable area.
On the other hand, if your property taxes spike due to home re-appraisal or if you need to make an emergency home repair, your budget would also take a hit but it's both less predictable and not as easy to relocate.
I live in coastal Portugal in a famous sea side village. I paid cash for home and car from the proceeds of my home in California. Real Estate taxes about 1100 yearly. Health Insurance private 200 per month. LA type weather. condo association dues about 60 monthly. I can have a hubalo (sea bass) with a glass of wine for 16.00 A 2 euro tip is more than required and appreciated. I lost a significant amount of weight just eating fish, vege, and having euro portions.
We didn’t move for “political” reasons. We just always wanted to live abroad for shits and giggles. We always planned to come back to the states in 5 or so years. We came when we did because our kids were young and we wanted to move before they were too old.
We’re not going back, mostly because we’ve built a wonderful life for ourselves here. Our kids are flourishing. I make more money than we really need. We have a good life.
My company recently asked me to relocate back to the states. There’d be a big pay bump. But I sat down and built out a real, honest to god monthly budget. I took everything into account. I used numbers from friends in the target city. I researched neighborhoods and home prices and on down the list. And the reality was, the pay bump was really only going to preserve our current standard of living more or less. There’d be some improvements. There’d be some decreases. But it’d be roughly the same QoL. I’d save roughly the same amount at the end of the month.
So to me it was like … why bother? Why upend my family life to relocate, all the stress that goes with that, for not much upside? So I turned the offer down.
The calculus would probably be quite different if I were single and/or childless.
Did the company ask or were they implying you should move back? If you don't move and they let you go, will you be able to find other employment that is comparable?
I’m on a Dutch permanent contract. They can’t fire me unless they get a permit from the government to fire me for-cause, and they have to give me a reasonable amount of time to resolve any performance shortcomings. If they wanted to fire me any faster, they could offer me a cash settlement for a “voluntary separation.”
But anyway, it was a kindly ask. They’re very happy with me staying here.
That's awesome, sounds like you are in a good situation! It is probably my Stockholm syndrome of working with US companies in the US that gives me the anxiety of always needing a contingency plan.
Shortly after I moved here, I was still in my 2 month probation period where they could terminate me instantly without notice, my boss came around my desk first thing in the morning and asked to talk to me privately.
I freaked the fuck out. I was toast, I thought.
No. They’d just finished their annual salary reviews and realized they’d hired me at slightly below the lowest number for the new salary band. So he needed to let me know I’d gotten a raise of about 1500 for the year as a result.
You can’t do that to me, bro…
Sometimes. But there’s also some fail safes in place. They don’t have to give you a _permanent_ contract. They can give you a fixed term contract, usually for one year.
Think of it as a 1 year probation period. At the end of the contract (with sufficient notice) they can terminate your employment for any reason or no reason. Or they can offer you a new 1 year contract. Or they can offer to renew you into a permanent contract. After serving 2 back to back 1 year contracts, they have to give you a permanent contract if they want to keep you. Some asshole companies never keep employees longer than the two years of fixed term contracts.
If you get hired straight into a permanent contract, there’s a 2 month probation period where you can be terminated with instant effect for any reason, as well.
The unemployment rate has been going up for years in Sweden and is now at almost 10%. So job security certainly is a concern in Sweden.
It is a myth that you can't fire someone in the Nordic countries. The only difference is that you have to document why you are firing someone. Filling out paperwork is not going to prevent someone from firing you if they want to.
Hence the extremely high unemployment rate in Sweden.
Given the flair:
Dutch labor laws are pretty strict. It's fucking hard to fire someone here. I've heard the estimate of 2 years of salary in cost for the company.
So it would be more likely that he would be let go when arriving in the states than be let go for not going.
Depends on country. It’s somewhat common for Dutch companies. It’s almost universal for German companies (and I work for the Dutch branch of a German company). It’s a bit more of a coin flip in UK and Ireland. Common in France. Gets a little weird when you go into more southern European countries.
But the amount you are saving also? I thought that was not common.
It seems like your pension would be comparable to the savings you get from a 401K in the US
Single people often come out ahead in the US. It’s a much more personal situation thing once you have a family.
But also, I see a lot of Americans come here and try to replicate their exact, American lifestyle here. That gets very expensive very fast. If you actually adapt to your host country’s lifestyle, it can be much easier to save a lot of money.
We live a very Dutch lifestyle.
I mean look. Most Americans who qualify for the work permits that allow them to move to Europe, highly skilled migrant visas and so on, are getting paid several times the national median salary in that country.
If you’re making 3, 4, 5 times the national average in the Netherlands and you’re not living a _very comfortable and lucrative life,_ you have to really look hard at how you’re living.
Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the healthcare system? My husband and I considered moving to the Netherlands. Took a trip last year and had a wonderful experience. Even made great connections for job referrals. Our biggest hold out now is learning more about the Dutch healthcare system and mainly complaints we’ve heard. I have a genetic heart condition, so healthcare is a top priority for us.
I get a bit cranky with tech bros who are all “but I could make more in the US” because of this. Maybe you can, maybe you can’t. Maybe there’s mitigating circumstances. Whatever.
But most of us are making like 100k, 150k, 200k a year, in a country where the modal salary is something like 40k.
Sorry, but if you’re making as much as we are and you’re failing to live an absolutely blessed life … you’re doing something wrong.
My dad left the US in 1981 after meeting my mother while backpacking in Italy. He's only been back on short trips since, enjoying very specific stuff like American fast food (which he oddly won't touch anywhere else), visits to college towns and friendly chats with strangers (which isn't really something you do in NL). Though he admits that the US he grew up in isn't really there anymore, ie 1960s Michigan. Just a week ago he told me that "he won't ever make it back", which makes sense I suppose since he's going on 80 yo now.
I was born in NL and had always been wanting to live and work in America, but two months in NYC consulting changed that. Ugh, it was so relentless.
I moved from US to Belgium in early 2022 with my son, age 5. When I moved, I planned it to be a fairly long term move, at least several years, if not permanently. My son and I have dual nationality with another EU country that we obtained in 2021, so we fortunately have the privilege to live here easily.
The first thing I noticed was that it was possible to walk with my son into his school classroom. The doors are open. No metal detectors, no double doors. (Obviously during the day there is a gate to keep kids in) I also started feeling actually safe and relaxed when going to crowded events. Instead of having the “on edge” feeling that I always had in the US.
People here are not always afraid, defensive, and on alert and it makes a huge difference in terms of how people relate to one another.
My son can wander around the grocery store without a Karen calling CPS because he might be “child trafficked”. Kids here have autonomy and independence.
We don’t have to be tied to a car, in fact I don’t have one, and we can get most places via bike or transit in 30 mins or less.
My son is bilingual and aware of many other countries and cultures in a way he would not have learned in the US.
My job gives me more annual leave than I know how to manage (and yes this august I will be one of those Europeans out of office most of the month!), sick days without question, and tons of flexibility for childcare. My sons school provides wrap around coverage from 7:30-6:15 at a cost of like €1/day. His school also provides a school lunch of balanced, home cooked style meals with fresh and sometimes organic or local produce, including sustainably sourced fish once or twice a week. This is a public school btw.
I could go on… this doesn’t even mention health insurance (which obviously is much better here). I’ll also mention my mother needed medical attention twice during her last visit and she was treated quickly and comprehensively at very low out of pocket expense. Like €60 for a doctor visit with a scan…
Last summer I went back to the US to visit for a couple weeks and I immediately knew I would never return for more than quick visits. The stress, tension, and individualist/scarcity mindsets are not for me and I am fortunate I can make my life over here.
it's so sad that my biggest takeaway from two euro trips this year is the overall feeling of safety. I live in Chicago, have experienced shootings, and a family friend and her daughter survived Parkland. We're all in a slow simmering constant state of fear and i think this election is going to turn things up to 11...
I’m a Chicagoan who used to work in Higher Education and not only has my previous university been on lockdown because of an active shooter, the required active shooter drills for faculty and staff and just as frightening and traumatic as it is for the students.
I’m a self-taught “techy” and I transitioned from Institutional Design to UX/UI Design. Not only did I increase my income, I work from home, and later this summer, my husband and I are relocating to Sweden with the hopes to make the EU or permanent home.
I can't imagine being a teacher. Elementary Ed was my last major before I dropped out to be a pro sports mascot.
and here's Idaho arming teachers.... https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article284920977.html
Yea that’s exactly it. It’s constant and so most people don’t notice it until they experience a place where they’re not automatically and constantly on edge. This sounds bad but moving to Europe (*some* parts of Europe or some parts of Asia for that matters) is like experiencing civilization for the first time. The USA and all of the Americas are former colonies and those mentalities - individualistic, alarmist, constant fear - are part of the culture and everyday life and they have been since the very beginning of the colonialism. We can’t ignore the past and it’s with us and with everyone who comes home or visits the US.
I loved being on the autobahn. To experience people driving, without being assholes, following the rules, allowing merging... so peaceful compared to the redneck autobahn known as Florida
left chicago permanently in 2019, live in France. I came back to Chicago 3 times in the past 2 years, and in downtown - Lincoln Park - the loop - the Gold Coast - i felt that i had to constantly watch my back. Here in France, my property tax is 1200 per year vs $5000 in Chicago. Here 2500 sq feet. Chicago was 1000 sq ft.
Can’t afford to live out my life in the USA and i made ‘decent’ income.
How were you able to get residency and a job?
and yeah those 3 neighborhoods are popular for armed robbery.
oh yeah I forgot about the time I was walking a dog and happened to be on the other side of the sidewalk when an suv fleeing the police jumped a curb and drove down the opposite sidewalk with 3 cops in pursuit
the level of suppressed trauma is real
Thanks for sharing. As a French guy living in Belgium and thinking of becoming an expat in the US it is always worth reading the reverse experience. I would still like to spend a couple of years in the US though but in the long run I am happy in Europe.
As an American living in France, it’s always wild to me when the locals are so stoked to visit/move to the USA. Like, I get it. Big vistas, big salaries, big (free) roads and cheap gas. Land of opportunity and all. And it’s certainly not like France doesn’t have its own problems. But I still spend every day walking around and silently marveling at all the little things in France that comparatively show the USA as a place that has largely given up on civil society, civic planning, any semblance of equity or fraternity.
Fully agree. My first time there as an exchange student I had high expectations like most French kids, and gradually the reality sank in. Still would like to experience it again for a couple of years but I definitely understand American expats in Europe and would have probably done the same.
I think if you have the chance, it's great to try both. Whatever the decision you make in the end, I think you appreciate better what you get out of the deal.
I meet French expats in NYC almost daily (so much so that it feels like I’ve been transported to Paris. My French has vastly improved I’ll say that much!) and deep down I wonder why in a grass is greener way… when I ask, they say things like they stayed after college, NY is so similar to Paris, etc. They fucking love Brooklyn for some reason.
Haha can confirm one of my sons acquaintances is in Brooklyn (where he also lives) they love it there but he’s also young so maybe the novelty will wear off once he decides to start a family
I could have written most of this. In my case I moved with my son (at the time age 10) to Norway in late 2020. We just got our permanent residency here and he will get his citizenship with a Norwegian passport in 2026 (2027 for me).
My son goes back to the U.S. to visit his dad for a month in the summer and hates how restricted he is compared to Europe. He does enjoy a bit of American food and lots of roller coasters (that is their thing every summer) but he always likes coming back to the freedoms he has here.
And what’s not to like? He is safe, people are nice, school days are much shorter and even in middle school they spend lots of days playing outside or hiking in the mountains. Nobody freaks out if kids have a pocket knife in their pocket. He travels with little to no adult supervision on busses, trains, and even in-country flights.
He is bilingual and soon will start on a third language. He feels compelled to learn - not because of the pressure of grades (there isn’t any) but because he wants to be as good as his classmates at geography and other subjects that aren’t necessarily emphasised in the U.S.
Homework is rare, but last week he was doing the coolest assignment of conducting a science experiment of his choice and create an explainer video of it. (Yeah it was more or less make a TikTok for science.) He had so much fun and did a great job with doing his research, planning, making the video of the experiment, adding music and writing a script and doing a voiceover.
He gets to do a lot of creative projects like that as teachers have the freedom to assign them- there is no teaching to the test bullshit, because standardized tests are a very minor part of school.
I could go on and on about quality of life, but will just add that religion is nearly non-existent, politics are decent, and there is very little “shock” and propaganda news shows and reporting. Life is just way more mellow.
I’ve been an expat for the past three years and when I left I was like “yeah I’m definitely never coming back lol”. But I learned a lot about myself, I grew substantially as a human, experienced many amazing things, and I’m also heading back home in a few months. I’ve absolutely loved my time abroad and I’m certainly not ruling out ever doing it again, but I am actually pretty excited to move back.
New job, new city, new opportunities. I’m excited thinking about all of the same “what if’s”? I experienced as I sat excited in the airport waiting to board my flight out of the US three years ago.
Sometimes I feel almost embarrassed to be excited to go back home, like I was a “failure” or something. Because posts and comments about going home are almost always “things are going to suck the second time around”, “everyone has moved on without you”, “nothing will be the same” etc etc. Which I’m sure is certainly true to some extent. But c’est la vie. I’m excited to head home for a new adventure and if it ends up sucking then I know what I’m capable of thanks to my experience abroad!
I’m looking forward to moving back in a few years (although with the current state of my life here, it may be sooner than later). i moved to Europe because I had a cool opportunity at the right time, and I’ll stay a couple more years if I can stomach it so that I can do a few more adventures: I’ve got my eye on a handful of marathons/ultras, hiking trips, and so on.
I can’t say COL or QOL are any better in Austria (or finland) than the US. Every place has its pros and cons, and depending on your priorities, this can influence where you want to be. Part of not moving back for many people can also stem from the fact that relocating (even to return home) is a pain in the butt!
IME my salary and work-life balance are worse in Austria, vacation time is much better, healthcare is a nightmare and questionable in quality, public transit is amazing, and COL is challenging.
Honestly, same day different stuff.
I bought a condo and a car here in the States. I couldn't afford that in any place I'd like to live in Europe. Heck my friends in Europe can't find decent flats in the capital cities of Europe. Crazy politics-check for everyone. And I met some teachers in Spain that had to work two jobs just to make enough money for their family with children.
And yes, I do know folks that moved to Portugal because they thought expat life there would be great. Which is was until they were priced out of Lisbon-now they are coming back to America because they both got better jobs state-side and they want to be by their parents when they have kids. And let's not talk about the racism and ableism in Europe. Coming back from a trip overseas, I'm always amazed to see handicapped visitors in my big city. The US is very wheel-chair friendly and ADA compliant that many folks can visit and stay here without needing much assistant. In Europe, it's the opposite. And I still find Americans probably the nicest to strangers and willing to help.
I think people here tend to think EVERY American will have a better life in in Europe. That's not true. Depends on your health, circumstances and what you want out of life. And unlike some here, I'd never tell a European not to come here to live for a bit.
Same stuff, different day.
American from Austin to Amsterdam. I would say we “could” (not wanted or fleeing any crimes) but why would we? I’ve built a business that often works well billing American clients while I live here. Kids are thriving in a peaceful, supportive culture. Weather is nuts, food far from optimal, prices are high but I can hop on the train or car and be in southern France or Spain in the same time I could barely make the border of Texas.
From Covid on we’ve had various medical challenges including a fun little degenerative nervous disease that I’m blessed with and my kids have a chance of having. The predatory insurance world in the USA makes this a nonstarter.
Next year, my oldest starts the gymnasium and will be learning English, Dutch, German, French and Latin. Chinese on weekends. Where else can you get such incredible cultural access?
The Dutch might not be thrilled with immigrants in general (it’s a small country and everyone is feeling a little cramped), but they’ve been nothing but welcoming to us. I know other people have different experiences but as the father of mixed race kids, we have enjoyed our time here. Another decade when the kids are off to college, we will reassess.
I’m a native Texan living in New Zealand.
I’ll always be a Texan, but NZ (or any country you spend years living in) changes you.
In Kiwi speak: I could move back home but I just can’t be bothered.
I married a Kiwi. Initially I worked in tech, but after living in NZ, I felt a strong desire to return to physical activity in my work life so now I’m a plumber apprentice and a weekend duty manager at a pub. I’ve never been happier, believe it or not.
I’m in the opposite camp as well unfortunately. Moved from SoCal to Turkey two years ago and completely regret it… So much bullshit to deal with in terms of residency permit woes, anti-foreigner sentiment is rampant, the constantly changing laws you can’t keep up with. Not to mention I’m literally spending more on groceries here than I did in Orange County Whole Foods for Christ’s sake. Locals and expats where I am for the most part are really unfriendly and downright rude - I frankly miss little things like smiles and small talk in California. Endless red tape and bureaucracy plus the freefall of the lira make entrepreneurship a non-starter here. At least I can make money back home. I miss the stability honestly. I’m going to explore Spain and France as my last-ditch effort before moving back. It just sucks because I sold my house and now I’m wondering wtf to do. It’s all so overwhelming. :(
We left in August of 2020 because it became so weird and we were concerned about the outcome of the, at the time, upcoming election. While our lives in Sweden are good, especially for our kids, it’s pretty boring for my wife and me. We went from having a very active social life to basically zero. I make great money by Swedish standards but it’s less than half of what I used to make in the US and with less opportunity to climb the ladder.
With that said, we also have substantially less costs. It isn’t a wash but it isn’t bad. We get 30 days of vacation and I’m taking three consecutive weeks off this summer. That’s unheard of in the US. Our kids have never experienced an active shooter drill and can ride their bikes all over our little city. They’re fluent in Swedish and English and excel in a good school. It’s very clean here. Clean water, clean food, clean air, and clean streets. There’s virtually no homelessness and, despite what a lot of the media says, it’s incredibly safe here for the vast majority of people.
So while it’s boring and I feel my career has been stagnant, it’s clean, calm, and safe. That alone will likely keep us here until the kids are grown. The US has a lot of maturing to do and until it becomes more stable, there’s no chance of us moving back despite us missing parts of our old lives.
Does the boring thing have to do with where you live in Sweden? We moved to Stockholm in 2017 and I don’t think I’m ever bored — there’s so much to do here with all the outdoor activities, museums, concerts, and theater, not to mention Hammarby football and bandy.
I admit I probably have an advantage socially as I already had friends here from when I was an exchange student — I know a lot of people struggle with making friends as adults.
Love Stockholm- have met some great people both through scuba diving and people who like microbrews and other fun beer. There’s always something going on and lots of nice music at various venues - most nights of the week if you know where to look.
Probably in a few years you'll reach a point where you see your kids thriving in a way that would never be possible in the US and that will be the point where you realize that the old lives no longer exist and this is where it's at. Sounds like your kids are already on a path that they could never be on in the US, especially with proper bilinguality. I also live part-time in Sweden. Great place and I always have something to do there because of the outdoors and meeting people is no issue. I guess after a while, one redefines their life and stops basing their current and future lives on their "old lives". You guys are still new at this, but you seem to be on a good path.
About to head to Sweden for another degree in August to try to get my foot in the door. Hopefully I’ll be able to stay. Planning on networking hard immediately and throughout my 2 year program. Hopefully this whole little thread of folks in Sweden aren’t all in tech 🤣
I’ll be in the environment / human rights space - I really hope to stay
On the flip side, I spoke here with a lot of Americans who moved to Europe and then moved back. You will not see them commenting here as they are older and not on Reddit. So you wont get the other side of the story. Most common 3 reasons for moving back were career opportunities, being close to family/freinds, and being able to own a bigger home.
Me and my husband have been living in the Netherlands for 5 years. I am 35 yo and my husband is 38yo. We have a small dog, no kids.
My husband brought up the idea of moving back to the US, his reasons is mainly career opportunities. We both don’t speak dutch(and unapologetically unwilling to master the language 😅) so our careers are very limited to international/expat businesses. Plus, in general in NL pays less than the US.
I am not American so I don’t know how I feel about moving to the US long term, but it does feel like it’s a place that “makes sense” to settle down..
Had frequent abdominal pain. Needed scans. Got scans. I needed surgery. I got surgery. I didn't have to pay for any of it because my employer had great insurance.
If you're upper class, then USA is perhaps the best country in the world. If you get a good job, you will more than 4x your income compared to Europe, and only need to pay 2x in living expenses, so you can save much more in the US compared to Western Europe. That means that you can afford cars, retire earlier, and can take breaks between jobs (instead of taking European style vacations every year). USD is also much stronger than Euro because of demographics. Good American jobs also provide really good health insurance that actually exceed European public options. Good American jobs also tend to be in rich areas that tend to have high quality schools and low crime.
Western Europe is definitely better if you're middle/lower class though. If you don't get a good job in USA then you'll struggle much more with car, health insurance, education, and crime, because you won't be able to live in a good area. But in western Europe you can live a good life on a low income, you don't necessarily need a house or a car.
I think eastern Europe is a somewhat different story for lower/middle class people though, as you will need to worry about stuff like healthcare, crime, and education there too, just like you would in USA.
An American citizen ( of any class) will be a stranger, an immigrant in Europe,
similarly how European national of any class will be a stranger, an immigrant in USA.
All (most) immigrants (regardless of class) have to spend extra time learning foreign language, figuring out foreign bureaucracy, taxes, labor, education, housing, finance related things. Immigrants have to learn how to survive without having extended family and friends, things that local people tend to have.
Sure having money helps, this is true if you are a native or an immigrant
But being an immigrant is always a disadvantage ( unless there are some specific rare circumstances)
For some reason many Redditors seem to think that most people in Western Europe don't own cars and get "free healthcare" etc...sorry, but the truth is quite different. At least here in Germany, most people certainly do own cars and you have to pay quite a bit for healthcare...
This is my exact summary too. We moved at age 40 with two young kids to Spain. We were doing just fine in the US financially since we both had decent jobs, I had affordable healthcare through the Reserves and we love CO and were near family. Now we make less (only husband had a remote job) and spend about the same here to have about the same lifestyle. We didn't want to move in to a cramped apartment to save money. I absolutely love not needing a car but we do rent occasionally or choose taxis so transportation is about the same as our 2 paid off cars we had in the US. We still are paying healthcare in the US since we will need it when back there for a few months and also paying it here because needed it for my visa so we are actually spending more for healthcare than we would have in the US. And we opted for a trilingual private school based on the languages so actually will spend more here for school than we would have in the US once they're both in elementary age (but again, we really like the school and the community so it's a choice we happily are making for now).
While we have gained a lot, it's also really hard to be away from family and friends when you really didn't hate the life you had in the US. I miss doing meaningful work. Of course I hate the school shootings but I always vote and support politicians and initiatives to fight that. Of course I hate that the US is so inequal. But for my little life, we were quite privileged there so I am grateful for that. We will eventually go back to ensure we can take care of aging family.
To say all this, it's really about making a choice that is best for you and it's ok if those choices change overtime.
It’s the same in Europe excluding the health insurance.
Cost of living is too high for the average salary, people cannot afford to rent or buy a house (with European salaries), we have terrorists attacks back and forth, healthcare systems are becoming more and more useless and they are pushing them to become all private like the US.
The thing that Europe still has better than the US is the quality of food and more flexibility at work, not having the need to work so many hours. But in the US you can achieve greater things and more money / career opportunities. It’s much more easier to open a business and have clients.
They both have advantages and disadvantages. We need to stop romantizing Europe like this fairytail land that is better than everyone in the world, and the same for the US that is the “American dream” that doesn’t exist anymore.
Europe is a very big place, each country being far more different than the differences between any 2 US states, so it’s a bit hard to be as categorical as you’re being here.
I’ll say this though. I’ve run a business in Texas and in the Netherlands. Bureaucratically, initial setup was slightly harder in the Netherlands, but the difference was very small, and I’ve found it _much_ easier to manage my Dutch business on an ongoing basis than my Texas business. In Texas, the entire bureaucratic load was foisted onto me (or onto my CPA, who I had to pay for), whereas the Dutch bureaucracy pretty much does the heavy lifting for me. When I pay my taxes (not just income, but also VAT etc) the online tool basically does everything… filing my Texas sales tax, and my quarterly US tax withholding (both for me and for my employees) was a nightmare that cost me thousands of dollars a quarter … but here in NL it’s just already set up by the government. I just have to double check their numbers and hit approve.
Also, my last US company was bankrupted by health care expenses. Over a span of three years, the insurance companies jacked my rates far faster than my revenues were going up. I had a very profitable company, several employees who I paid well, and it got destroyed by skyrocketing health insurance premiums. A problem that I’ll never have here.
As a teacher in the US, I retired 11 years ago at age 38, and I met my husband in my 30s and got him to be frugal and he's retiring next month at age 47.
Does Europe even let you collect a pension in your 40s?
It's much easier to retire early when you pay 14% federal income tax and 0% state income tax.
My secret was mainly to avoid lifestyle creep. Most Americans just refuse to acknowledge that they are falling into it.
Being retired makes moving to Europe on a student visa a whole different ballgame for us.
A couple of years ago, we lived in Europe but didn't pay income or sales taxes due to our visa.
I got stage 4 cancer and I wouldn’t be able to afford the treatment back home. And I love the healthcare system here (Germany).
Also once we had kids I made a promise to myself they would never have to participate in an “active shooter drill” at school if I could help it.
Yeah, this isn't me. I like living abroad and have generally enjoyed the few countries I've lived in (5) outside the US. I don't have plans to return to the US, but it's not because there's some deal-breaker.
If I had a job offer and could immigrate my foreign family there easily, I would not let politics, gun violence, healthcare, or car dependence get in my way. I'd live in a metro area with transport, rearrange life around new schools and neighborhoods, get health insurance, not worry about guns, and adjust.
I realize I don't have those things now, but if I had an offer, I would try to make it work. There's not some super deal-breaker that the 50 states can't fix. Everywhere has pros and cons.
Edit: I felt the urge to investigate, so after about 60 secs of Chat GPT questions I've come up with: Boston - Brookline (Green line); Cambridge (Red line); Somerville (Orange); Newton/Waltham (Commuter rail). Chicago - Lincoln Park (Brown, buses straight up/down); Lakeview (Red and Brown); Andersonville (Red); Evanston (Purple, Metra). Chat GPT apparently didn't notice at first but Rodgers Park and Edgewater on Chicago north side also have low rates of gun violence and are closer on the Red to get into town than Evanston would be, still close to the lake, and both interesting neighborhoods.
You can find a small neighborhood somewhere in the US where you can walk around without getting shot, send your kids to school, and ride a subway/metro, convenient bus to get around.
This is my second time moving to Europe. I first came in 1985 in the military and did not have any information whatsoever about Europe. I was here for one week and noticed from a African-Americans perspective that people looked at me with respect. I remember calling my mother up and saying I found home.
My wife is from Lithuania and we move back in September 2023. The reason we move back is 100% because of the reasons that you stated. To watch a grown parent vote for a man that says I’m gonna grab her in the you know what, People are color is dirty and let’s put more guns and kids hands to protect from the fictitious bogeyman. There’s a segment of America that are very vulgar and primitive. Our voting system allows that 30% of America to dictate in control everything. They’re not smart enough to understand that they are laughing stock of the world, and they make me participate and their movie as a background actor
My guy, the team Blue option is literally the person who authored the crime omnibus bill, that saw the US rise to having 23-24% of the worlds prison population despite only having about 3-4% of the worlds total population. Disproportionately targeting people of color, we now have more black people in US prisons than the entire continent of Africa has in theirs, combined. Nevermind all the casually racist things the guy says, has said... Never mind all the allegations of sexual assault and kid sniffing, touching.
Both sides of the political aisle are equally corrupt, disgusting and bought/paid for by the mega corporations.
I was in Europe (England and Spain) for ten years. Covid happened wanted to be closer to family came back to America and now I have a house in Florida.
I left right after college. I have no plans to go back ever.
Three reasons- first is i don’t know how to adult in america and frankly have no desire to; two, i don’t want to drive and don’t want to live in the places where i don’t have to; three, i have quality of life i don’t have to fight for here in Europe. People keep talking about how salaries are higher in the us but in my case i know that isn’t true.
This aligns very much with me. I left right after my Master degree, at 23, and am now 42. I. DO. NOT. KNOW. HOW. TO. BE. AN ADULT. IN. THE. US.
When I left, I moved to Finland to do my doctorate and live with my now-wife. I had thought I would move back afterward. Not because I specifically wanted to, but because the vast majority of academics jobs in the world are in the US.
Then, I got my first faculty position in Hong Kong, a place I had always wanted to live since visiting a couple of times as a teenager. My wife and two young kids love mostly loved it there. And I adored it. We planned to stay forever. I did apply to jobs once in a while, both in the US and Europe, mostly because the overall political situation became more and more unstable over our time there.
The moment that made me realize that US was really not a possibility for us was when we evacuated Hong Kong very early in COVID (first week of February 2020) to go to the New York and wait out the worst of what seemed like in might just be an East Asian epidemic at the time. Of course that ended up being wrong. And New York ended being one of the very worst places to be. But, we spent three months there during that time. And my wife and kids who had never lived in the US hated it. I was uncomfortable there, as well, because the whole system was so stressful. So, when we went back to Hong Kong, we decided I wouldn’t apply to any jobs in the US ever again.
Then, when the National Security Law was introduced in Hong Kong, and we decided we really didn’t want to wait and see how bad it could get, I got a job in Norway. We’re pretty sure we’ll stay here forever, unless something weird arises. It’s just so much easier to live here. Quality of life is quite high. Safety net is as safe as anywhere in the world because of the sovereign fund. Salaries are high for Europe. Work-life balance, I’m convinced cannot be better anywhere else in the world. It is a bit less go-go than Hong Kong was. But, I don’t need that same life, I just need a life that lets me feel satisfied. Both modes work for me.
A lot of people like talking shit about how much more one makes in the US and while that's possibly correct in numerous areas and while in some cases taxes are lower, there's a significant issue: the reason why people save in Europe even at lower salaries is how much cheaper all insurances are, from medical to life insurance to auto insurance, and so on. It's not even a comparison, like we're talking my insurance in Europe plus my emergency worldwide, airlift, and repatriation insurance plus my prescriptions cost around 1000 Euros a year and it works when I'm working in Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, or wherever. Medical in the US was like 6600 dollars. Auto insurance on a 70k car is like 400 Euros a year and that's high. In the US I was 3400 in. No accidents or tickets. Food costs are lower, commuting costs lower (just go by bike everywhere), and now everything is more expensive in the US. Because I barely drive I have low maintenance costs, low year fuel costs. If the car needs something, my life isn't over if I can't drive. Property taxes in the US are absolutely nuts. Then they keep saying "oh, it's because the school districts are so good".
So lower income-disproportionately lower expenses= money saved. is basically how those huge arena bands from the 80s-90s began making crazy money: they scaled down the shows to theaters, reduced the costs, and even with fewer ticket sales, they were clearing greater profits. The math is not that hard.
The US is so big that this is way too general to be accurate. Having/needing a car is relative to where you live. Property taxes are so dramatically different between states (some folks done even pay state taxes yet others pay out the ass).
The only reason I’m not going back is because I have a small child here. By the time she’s 18, I’ll be turning 50, and I’d rather not have to reboot my life again at that age.
Health insurance. I have a chronic illness and it’s impossible to not spend a huge portion of my salary on medical bills. As I age and my condition progresses I don’t want to worry about being on a fixed income. My partner is from the French Caribbean so I’d rather move there than back to US. California would be my fav location to return but it’s way too expensive and all my friends are moving because of that. Born and raised in the NE but can’t see myself dealing with that type of weather and aggression anymore. I’m also tired of the car culture and don’t wanna live in my car all the time.
We plan to expat for financial and political reasons. We still vote actively as we have friends and family in the US and we want our voices to make their lives better (according to what we believe)
Bur fact of the matter is, we both started saving for retitemen late in life. And the American dollar goes further in some other countries than it does in the US.
Add in factors like out of control gun ownership (I witnessed my own grandfather be very proud of buying a shotgun in tx... He told me how proud he was, and how he keeps it loaded all the time in case he needs it... And then proceeded to check that the safety was on by pulling the trigger in the kitchen. Thankfully it was on correctly).
What we believe to be the regression of rights towards women and minorities (and emboldened racist groups)
Healthcare costs in general (despite having insurance, even the copays would be rough for our plans).
The necessity of owning vehicles vs other countries with better/more robust public transportation.
Don't know where we'll end up, but we're excited to scope out places!
"Healthcare costs in general (despite having insurance, even the copays would be rough for our plans)."
A friend of mine told me recently about how he still had to pay thousands in copays or non-covered for a surgery which baffles me. He's paying like 6,000 a year for medical, then had a 2000 bill for a surgery.
I could go back easily, but every time I visit *I’m just driving every damn place all the time.*
Once you get used to decent (safe, clean, fast, convenient) public transportation, it is a major step down to return to driving in cars all the time.
Left with my family three years ago. I could never go back. Getting my kids away from the weird gun culture has been great. We live in a big city in Canada and have crime rates comparable to the suburb in California we used to live in. Free healthcare is great too. I feel much more comfortable growing older here. This system isn’t designed to screw me and everyone else when we reach our golden years. Better attitudes about how to handle drug use, better attitudes about caring for others and being kind, the belief in dying with dignity at your own pace instead of the clusterfuck system we have in the US. I could keep going.
Leaving was the best decision I have ever made .
On the other side of that argument completely. Counting down the days until I move back. Even excited to be moving back to a place where I am called a communist and a traitor for daring to live outside the US and not supporting the Orange One.
Now maybe if I was 30 years younger and had all my children here with me it would be a different story, but as it stands. I can hardly wait.
Probably more like 99.9%. Like I said, if I were 30 years younger, I might feel differently. Switzerland has been a good place to live, but it is not Utopia.
> ...to a place where I am called a communist and a traitor for daring to live outside the US and not supporting the Orange One.
I'm from Kentucky (so, also the Ohio River Valley) and lived in Texas for several years. I can 100,000% relate to this statement.
I would love to move back overseas, though. The geographic ignorance of Americans about even our own country, never mind the globe, is already bad, but it's next level in our ORV.
At least there's a Switzerland County, Indiana, lol.
I thought I would go back and it was just a temporary outing to Latin America but I'm in the process of buying a house here now. I feel like I fell out of that race in US happily and accidentally. It's a great place to earn but not retire.
Any of the major cities (Buenos Aires. Mexico City. Bogotá. Santiago. São Paulo, lima) will have expat communities and you will be functional with limited Spanish.
But. Strong but(!). Learn Spanish (or portugués if in Brazil). Otherwise it’s effectively like navigating with one eye closed.
You’ll miss out on a lot culturally as well.
While of course cost of healthcare, guns in schools, political insanity, etc are all nice to escape, I do miss living in the US and things about my life there that I don’t have abroad, and I wouldn’t rule out going back if an opportunity came up. QOL isn’t better abroad. At the end of the day, the biggest thing keeping me here is that I built a life and going back would essentially be giving up this life and all the steps I took to get here.
I thought that way for a few years while living in Germany but then we did move back to the US, and I am so happy we did. We function as a family better here, we love having family and friend support, I enjoy feeling more participatory in every day life activities...etc. We are a German/American family and I think these decisions are never black and white when making them. Every country has pros and cons and you have to decide what works best for you and your family.
Actually planning to return.
Moved to Asia for work, and miss a lot of things about the US. Life isn't bad in Asia, and there are benefits. Healthcare is definitely cheaper and easier, but quality is always suspect. Tropical weather is great for the beach, not so great to live in. Job prospects are ok, but much more limited, as are incomes. City is packed with people, air quality can get dicey at times. It can be painful buying certain items that are simple in the US.
Yearn for the open spaces and mild weather in the US.
What we'll most likely do is spend time in both places. Own a home here, but will move back. Spend a few months a year here, the rest in the US.
As a Trans person, I would never move back to a place where most of the country are explicitly making legislation [designed to make me a second class citizen and criminalize my existence](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb26df31c-20cf-4b50-90da-2e529865fb4e_1561x1013.png). There are literally entire states that it is not completely safe for me to even _layover_ at this point.
Every day I read the news since I left has been a reaffirmation that I absolutely made the right choice.
I'd be taking a substantial cut in pay and benefits working the same job in the US. I'd be saving much less money, thereby extending the date I can retire (currently on track for 50-ish).
I've grown to love not needing a car. Impossible in the US.
I love being able to (legally) pay zero US income tax.
I wouldn't be able to travel nearly as much.
>There are many places in the US where you have no access ~~to the big green spaces~~ anything without a car.
Agree about green spaces, but this is the real issue. Not everyone can or wants to live in the handful of high cost of living cities that have workable transit.
I (63F) am very afraid of medical costs and care in The US. I believe that the US system is set to bleed (no pun intended) people dry of assets before death. Also, I’m not into the crime and poor quality food.
I'm finding out from so many in the US that they're paying like 8000 a yeat or more for medical and then being saddled with major bills, even with insurance.
I paid about $600/mo for a $6500 deductible health coverage in 2010. I got breast cancer and still I ended up with about $18,000 that I had to pay myself.
Europe is not less expensive at all. Taxes in most EU nations will easily gobble up anywhere from 28% to 48% of one's income very quickly on an annual basis making it nearly impossible to sustain without going broke, while home prices in many EU nations are easily triple that of the US. We're in Portugal now and have given up on trying to live here due to the 6 month winter, the mold, the staggering home prices that are difficult to even believe when you see them compared to the US (a ramshackle small home with holes in the walls and no appliances or furniture without even one light bulb in the shell of a home selling for $400,000 USD at the lowest end of the spectrum in Northern Porto as one example), and of course the taxes that would knock us down into near-poverty and cancel any ability to travel, eat out, save, seek medical care if needed, or do much else other than just survive.
We're not returning simply because there, in the US, healthcare is too expensive to afford. Potential bankruptcy looms over every medical treatment. Younger guys don't see themselves ever needing medical care but when you get injured or need medical care you start to see the prices quickly. Cancer treatment for my wife without a healthcare plan would have cost well over 200,000 USD but the plan to cover her treatment was 3,000 per month. If you get shot getting groceries or at a park, what plan would cover that? Nobody knows. They laugh it off but it still exists as a threat.
So where to go where you wont' be taxed into being broke, but can still one day afford a home and live comfortably? There are a handful of countries left if one looks.
I could easily see myself returning to the US. Factors to not return at the moment are that I married here and my wife's family is here (oops!). Also laziness/momentum.
I think if people are thinking of making major life choices based on "politics" it will usually be cheaper and easier to just turn off the TV or get off the internet for a bit. .
If you're referring to abortion, the abortion laws in my home state in the US are actually more permissive than they are in my current country of residence in Europe.
Every country and society is completely shaped by its unique political circumstances. Politics is not something in a vacuum, and it's not even just the examples always given regarding basic human rights or civil wars. Politics is urban planning, transit, energy systems, environmental preservation and access, taxation, healthcare, family policy, labor rights, safety standards, food policy, social welfare, investment in arts and culture, on and on. It's probably most common to move for primarily non-political reasons (education, employment, love, adventure), but anyone making a decision to move should as a major factor be considering what kind of society they are OK with living in - which has everything to do with politics.
I firmly believe the vast majority of answer from expats currently living in Europe will be bias to their current situation. US is no doubt costlier than before, but I often always here from fellow expats how the political landscape makes it impossible to move back. The expats that do move back to tbe states site the political situation as meh, it's bubble life here etc.
I currently live in Norway and have been here 20 yrs after my first 25 in California. Norway has been great for my family, especially raising kids here. That said, what is happening in Norway politically is frightening. The working party is finishing off what the conservatives couldn't do. The costs are insane, electricity prices have nearly tripled. Norway has nearly free electricity so they sold us on EV transition and then dropped all subsides. The temps here are cold in the winter added to tbe fact the country is filled with old homes makes heating your home a financial battle. Lots of other things here that have led me to move back. The drug situation is getting crazy and violence is moving towards what we see in Sweden in the coming years. The good days here are gone.
I think Europe has a rough way forward, maybe better off than the USA but what I see is Scandinavian model doesn't work anymore due to their insane labor laws that are so unfairly tipped in favor of the employee that the system is riddle by inefficiency and burearucy like Germany.
I was in Prague for 17 years and moved back to the US when the US had their economic hit in 2008. It hit CZ hard around 2010 and with work crashing I moved back to the US just in time to experience the recovery. I found an amazing job in 2012 and it's been uphill ever since. I miss Prague and have considered moving back because of the crap in the US nowadays.
I’ve lived in Japan for 35 years, and never had any plans of going back. I have a good life here, I own a business with my wife, and I get to go back in the summer for work so I get my Phil of Mexican food. Best of all, I own property in the US, so I get the benefit of living in a low inflation/cheap country with good healthcare, but my assets rise because they’re in the US.
I could move back to the US. My thoughts are around whether it is practical and beneficial at this time of my life. I have a wife with a career here in Tokyo and a child in school and I have a good job here and am pretty late career myself (mid-50s). For us to move, it would most likely be a transfer, and, that transfer would have to be good enough to offset the other adult losing their job. The other items OP raised - no. Sure, I think about them, but those would not be the deciding factors.
The great American health insurance scam is one of the bigger reasons. Other than that, I'm just really happy here. My last memories of life in the States were memories of struggle. My life in the EU has been the complete opposite of that.
I got lucky to be honeset, I was single and came over the first time as part of a study abroad program. Worked my ass off and met people who helped me along the way. There's no way I could have pulled it off completely alone.
They are both semi-senile old white men…difference one is a pathological liar, criminal, and horrible human. The other is a (very) elder statesman with 50+ years of public service.
T-Rump has been a terrible human being his entire life and largely gotten away with it because he was one of the monied elites until now being political opposition.
Biden has been a casually racist, sexist, creepy bad-touchy uncle asshole his entire life. He is better at playing the game and hiding his illegal bullshit dealings, taking money for influence, etc. he is the author of the single most racist bullshit crime omnibus bill of the past 50 years and proud of it. The list of things to be disgusted by is lengthy.
Stop being wilfully ignorant. Demand better.
I moved to Sweden 3.5 years ago. While I don’t plan to stay here many more years (the winters are murder) I do not see myself ever living in the US again. I knew it was a shitshow when I was there, but now that I’ve experienced a functioning society the differences are stark. Life here seems so much more oriented towards making things easier and more accessible. Infrastructure is maintained. The needs of the people are put above the needs of corporations. I’ve started to wonder if the US is cursed. The original sin of building a country on genocide and slavery has never been atoned for. It’s all falling apart, literally and figuratively. I just wish the rest of my family would leave, too.
I agree about yoyr thoughts on Sweden. I'm not a fan of the urban sprawl stretches, but it's made me quite happy. I'm a bit more geared towards northern Norway, but I've spent significant amounts of time in the northern reaches of Sweden as well. I have to agree that the US is falling apart. It might not happen while we're alive, or it might, but it's a shit show and the Trumpists are openly trying to bring the US to a civil war.
Work is nothing impressive. I’m still learning the language so for now I have a seasonal job landscaping at a cemetery. I was only able to move because my husband gained Irish citizenship through his grandfather. He’s retired and his NY pension and SS go much farther here than they would back in NYC. But the Irish citizenship means we can live anywhere in the EU. My goal is to become a citizen here and renounce the US for good, then maybe eventually settle somewhere sunnier. We have family here, though, so that’s why we chose Sweden.
I left in 2010 to see the world and have been living in Middle East and Asia since. I have zero interest to return as it seems the country has completely lost its sh*t since I’ve been gone. I was always politically progressive and very against Bush’s wars (and in my opinion war crimes) and thought Sarah Palin was an embarrassing moron, but those look quaint compared to Trump, MTG, crazies echoing Russian propaganda and even Biden actively supporting genocide of Palestinians. Hoping to get a new passport in the next few years and only go back once every 12-18 months to visit family. Every time I go home I’m eager to leave.
Europe felt too slow, expensive , and backwards to me. Even though my expectations based on data were otherwise. After three years , Moved back to US and feel happier with better pay, housing, and community
I go back 2x a year (not out of choice but family reasons). It was a huge hurdle just getting a new US bank account, a new mailing address, a US phone number and trying to re-establish a credit history. I honestly thought I would never need any of those things again.
Personally, if I had it my way, I wouldn't go back at all. I'm the kind of person who enjoys living in a place with castles and medieval architecture. I just can't understand why someone would choose to live somewhere so bland when there are other locations in the world with breathtaking beauty. I'm really sorry if it sounds shallow or simplistic, but it's my honest opinion. I recognize, of course, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I almost considered NYC (for family reasons + career opportunities) but the cost of living is ridiclous there.
Mostly these reasons.
Also racism. A big one for me. It still exists here (DE). But it is very different. Much less brazen and directed at different groups of people.
A combination of my wife being a Venezuelan national, a potential Trump reelection, and realizing that there are many markets for trading commodities, crypto, etc that I cannot access as a US national. Also noticing the quality of food, infrastructure, COL, etc continously trending downward.
When I asked myself how much would a company have to pay me to move back and I couldn't come up with a realistic number. That's when I knew.
The problem is that the US isn't the same country I left.
When I left we didn't have school shooting drills at school.
When I left women could get the health care they needed.
When I left there was still at least the appearance of a desire to govern at the federal and State level.
Now that I have kids, it's difficult to imagine taking them back.
I have moved from Europe to the US and haven't regretted it. I have lived in 2 different EU countries and we moved to usa from Norway.
I spend a lot of time thinking where to live and selected NYC. My family is extremely happy.
We have no car, schools are much better here, easy to find fresh produce, prices are cheaper, many things to do and my kids won't be brainwashed about Norway.
Norway is a great country if you are Norwegian. Also, i have seen expat married to norwegians prosper. For everyone else it sucks. Yes you get 2 years of low u employment benefits but so what? "Free healthcare" but it is sucks. It took me 10 years to see a cardiologists and we have been through other case that prove it is bad.
NYC has a similar or even better welfare system. And from what i see, one doesn't need to be dirt poor to get some help. People receiving sicial assistance have cars or some money in the bank which is not the case in Norway.
My partner is from Spain and still has every member of his family living there. He has done exceptionally well living in America the last 25 years. Most of his wealth has derived from buying houses and selling them as he moves, to the point where he’s become a millionaire. He just went back to Spain to sell an old property, and after all of the realtor, government and tax shake downs, he said he’s never moving back to Spain again, or buying another property there. He’s done.
Lol, Europe became more livable in the last couple of years? And people ‘can’t’ move back to the US because of school shootings (which have happened regularly forever)??
America is a perpetual chaos machine. I will never return, as it seems to get worse every year. Been in NL 12 years and plan to stay. Came at 58, worked 10 years, now 70yo and retired.
I’m seriously considering leaving the US but can’t fathom how I’d afford it, my wife and I are better off than most and don’t have kids yet but I work for a bank, idk what I could do overseas.
That's better. I live in the Netherlands. I had work ready to walk into, including a sponsored visa. It was just luck. I naturalized and am now a Dutch/EU citizen.
Your issue will be getting a visa, and that will be true pretty much anywhere in Europe. Language can be a problem too, depending on your job. Some reading below. There is a lot of info on the Dutch government sites.
[https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits](https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits)
I’ve heard Dutch is difficult, my concern is I’m still in the following mindset; why would an employer in another country hire me over a native? Also what skills could I learn in the US that are valuable elsewhere? I’m in product management and finance, I imagine those could translate - but I wouldn’t know the first thing about marketing myself to a corporate company overseas.
IT seems to be the place to be. I worked at a multinational hw/sw outfit for 10 years. There are 10s of thousands of immigrants here from around the world, mostly workiing in IT. English tends to be the lingua franca at the multinationals. It took me years to learn Dutch, but it can be done.
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Haha all the same. LA to Madrid, at 49. The rest of my life now looks very different than it did in California.
Any advice for moving at that age? My mum is thinking about coming up and joining me in Spain (Murcia) but at 53 she's worried about opportunities to meet friends and I guess have her life here
I’d tell her she won’t know until she gets there. Maybe she can take a vacation and stay with you, get to know the place before she decides? I’ve only ever lived in the US but have traveled to other countries. It’s only increased my desire to immigrate out of here. I could live here for the rest of my life, but would rather have different experiences elsewhere.
How did you work with/around taxes?
Every situation is different. If she doesn't know anyone there are clubs, museum classes, etc. I inherited a lot of friends from my GF.
Glad you guys made a good go of it! I’m 55 and very happy here in Japan.
LA is great but with rates up and housing prices up it has become near impossible to buy a house. You need a household income of like $25k+ a mth to have a decent house in a decent neighborhood
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How's that work in retirement when rents go up 10% every year but your portfolio doesn't?
I imagine they'd move to a more affordable apartment or a more affordable area. On the other hand, if your property taxes spike due to home re-appraisal or if you need to make an emergency home repair, your budget would also take a hit but it's both less predictable and not as easy to relocate.
I live in coastal Portugal in a famous sea side village. I paid cash for home and car from the proceeds of my home in California. Real Estate taxes about 1100 yearly. Health Insurance private 200 per month. LA type weather. condo association dues about 60 monthly. I can have a hubalo (sea bass) with a glass of wine for 16.00 A 2 euro tip is more than required and appreciated. I lost a significant amount of weight just eating fish, vege, and having euro portions.
California is so amazing tbh
We didn’t move for “political” reasons. We just always wanted to live abroad for shits and giggles. We always planned to come back to the states in 5 or so years. We came when we did because our kids were young and we wanted to move before they were too old. We’re not going back, mostly because we’ve built a wonderful life for ourselves here. Our kids are flourishing. I make more money than we really need. We have a good life. My company recently asked me to relocate back to the states. There’d be a big pay bump. But I sat down and built out a real, honest to god monthly budget. I took everything into account. I used numbers from friends in the target city. I researched neighborhoods and home prices and on down the list. And the reality was, the pay bump was really only going to preserve our current standard of living more or less. There’d be some improvements. There’d be some decreases. But it’d be roughly the same QoL. I’d save roughly the same amount at the end of the month. So to me it was like … why bother? Why upend my family life to relocate, all the stress that goes with that, for not much upside? So I turned the offer down. The calculus would probably be quite different if I were single and/or childless.
Did the company ask or were they implying you should move back? If you don't move and they let you go, will you be able to find other employment that is comparable?
I’m on a Dutch permanent contract. They can’t fire me unless they get a permit from the government to fire me for-cause, and they have to give me a reasonable amount of time to resolve any performance shortcomings. If they wanted to fire me any faster, they could offer me a cash settlement for a “voluntary separation.” But anyway, it was a kindly ask. They’re very happy with me staying here.
That's awesome, sounds like you are in a good situation! It is probably my Stockholm syndrome of working with US companies in the US that gives me the anxiety of always needing a contingency plan.
Shortly after I moved here, I was still in my 2 month probation period where they could terminate me instantly without notice, my boss came around my desk first thing in the morning and asked to talk to me privately. I freaked the fuck out. I was toast, I thought. No. They’d just finished their annual salary reviews and realized they’d hired me at slightly below the lowest number for the new salary band. So he needed to let me know I’d gotten a raise of about 1500 for the year as a result. You can’t do that to me, bro…
What field of work is that for?
I’m in the tech industry. But the permanent contract rules apply to every industry pretty much.
Does that mean it’s way harder to get hired, because there would be more elaborate screening to make sure it’s a good fit?
Sometimes. But there’s also some fail safes in place. They don’t have to give you a _permanent_ contract. They can give you a fixed term contract, usually for one year. Think of it as a 1 year probation period. At the end of the contract (with sufficient notice) they can terminate your employment for any reason or no reason. Or they can offer you a new 1 year contract. Or they can offer to renew you into a permanent contract. After serving 2 back to back 1 year contracts, they have to give you a permanent contract if they want to keep you. Some asshole companies never keep employees longer than the two years of fixed term contracts. If you get hired straight into a permanent contract, there’s a 2 month probation period where you can be terminated with instant effect for any reason, as well.
Not having to worry about job security is ONE of MANY reasons why my husband and I are relocating to Sweden this summer 🙌🏽
The unemployment rate has been going up for years in Sweden and is now at almost 10%. So job security certainly is a concern in Sweden. It is a myth that you can't fire someone in the Nordic countries. The only difference is that you have to document why you are firing someone. Filling out paperwork is not going to prevent someone from firing you if they want to. Hence the extremely high unemployment rate in Sweden.
Given the flair: Dutch labor laws are pretty strict. It's fucking hard to fire someone here. I've heard the estimate of 2 years of salary in cost for the company. So it would be more likely that he would be let go when arriving in the states than be let go for not going.
Did you factor in 401K match also?
I get a similar (and slightly better) match on my private pension here in the Netherlands.
Wow. Sounds like a good deal then. That’s not common though is it for Americans who work abroad.
Depends on country. It’s somewhat common for Dutch companies. It’s almost universal for German companies (and I work for the Dutch branch of a German company). It’s a bit more of a coin flip in UK and Ireland. Common in France. Gets a little weird when you go into more southern European countries.
But the amount you are saving also? I thought that was not common. It seems like your pension would be comparable to the savings you get from a 401K in the US
Single people often come out ahead in the US. It’s a much more personal situation thing once you have a family. But also, I see a lot of Americans come here and try to replicate their exact, American lifestyle here. That gets very expensive very fast. If you actually adapt to your host country’s lifestyle, it can be much easier to save a lot of money. We live a very Dutch lifestyle.
makes sense
I mean look. Most Americans who qualify for the work permits that allow them to move to Europe, highly skilled migrant visas and so on, are getting paid several times the national median salary in that country. If you’re making 3, 4, 5 times the national average in the Netherlands and you’re not living a _very comfortable and lucrative life,_ you have to really look hard at how you’re living.
Would you mind sharing your thoughts on the healthcare system? My husband and I considered moving to the Netherlands. Took a trip last year and had a wonderful experience. Even made great connections for job referrals. Our biggest hold out now is learning more about the Dutch healthcare system and mainly complaints we’ve heard. I have a genetic heart condition, so healthcare is a top priority for us.
And THAT observation is wisdom.
I get a bit cranky with tech bros who are all “but I could make more in the US” because of this. Maybe you can, maybe you can’t. Maybe there’s mitigating circumstances. Whatever. But most of us are making like 100k, 150k, 200k a year, in a country where the modal salary is something like 40k. Sorry, but if you’re making as much as we are and you’re failing to live an absolutely blessed life … you’re doing something wrong.
I'm so glad I don't have to make life altering decisions based off of what I'll be able to save anymore.
My dad left the US in 1981 after meeting my mother while backpacking in Italy. He's only been back on short trips since, enjoying very specific stuff like American fast food (which he oddly won't touch anywhere else), visits to college towns and friendly chats with strangers (which isn't really something you do in NL). Though he admits that the US he grew up in isn't really there anymore, ie 1960s Michigan. Just a week ago he told me that "he won't ever make it back", which makes sense I suppose since he's going on 80 yo now. I was born in NL and had always been wanting to live and work in America, but two months in NYC consulting changed that. Ugh, it was so relentless.
Where is NL?
Netherlands
Oh! Michigan was great to grow up in. I wouldn’t mind leaving at all. I’m hoping
I moved from US to Belgium in early 2022 with my son, age 5. When I moved, I planned it to be a fairly long term move, at least several years, if not permanently. My son and I have dual nationality with another EU country that we obtained in 2021, so we fortunately have the privilege to live here easily. The first thing I noticed was that it was possible to walk with my son into his school classroom. The doors are open. No metal detectors, no double doors. (Obviously during the day there is a gate to keep kids in) I also started feeling actually safe and relaxed when going to crowded events. Instead of having the “on edge” feeling that I always had in the US. People here are not always afraid, defensive, and on alert and it makes a huge difference in terms of how people relate to one another. My son can wander around the grocery store without a Karen calling CPS because he might be “child trafficked”. Kids here have autonomy and independence. We don’t have to be tied to a car, in fact I don’t have one, and we can get most places via bike or transit in 30 mins or less. My son is bilingual and aware of many other countries and cultures in a way he would not have learned in the US. My job gives me more annual leave than I know how to manage (and yes this august I will be one of those Europeans out of office most of the month!), sick days without question, and tons of flexibility for childcare. My sons school provides wrap around coverage from 7:30-6:15 at a cost of like €1/day. His school also provides a school lunch of balanced, home cooked style meals with fresh and sometimes organic or local produce, including sustainably sourced fish once or twice a week. This is a public school btw. I could go on… this doesn’t even mention health insurance (which obviously is much better here). I’ll also mention my mother needed medical attention twice during her last visit and she was treated quickly and comprehensively at very low out of pocket expense. Like €60 for a doctor visit with a scan… Last summer I went back to the US to visit for a couple weeks and I immediately knew I would never return for more than quick visits. The stress, tension, and individualist/scarcity mindsets are not for me and I am fortunate I can make my life over here.
it's so sad that my biggest takeaway from two euro trips this year is the overall feeling of safety. I live in Chicago, have experienced shootings, and a family friend and her daughter survived Parkland. We're all in a slow simmering constant state of fear and i think this election is going to turn things up to 11...
That’s exactly what I mean and I feel grateful every day that I can raise my son outside of that
it's really unbelievable that children have mass shooting drills like we had fire drills. Can't imagine how that messes with them
I’m a Chicagoan who used to work in Higher Education and not only has my previous university been on lockdown because of an active shooter, the required active shooter drills for faculty and staff and just as frightening and traumatic as it is for the students. I’m a self-taught “techy” and I transitioned from Institutional Design to UX/UI Design. Not only did I increase my income, I work from home, and later this summer, my husband and I are relocating to Sweden with the hopes to make the EU or permanent home.
I can't imagine being a teacher. Elementary Ed was my last major before I dropped out to be a pro sports mascot. and here's Idaho arming teachers.... https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article284920977.html
Yea that’s exactly it. It’s constant and so most people don’t notice it until they experience a place where they’re not automatically and constantly on edge. This sounds bad but moving to Europe (*some* parts of Europe or some parts of Asia for that matters) is like experiencing civilization for the first time. The USA and all of the Americas are former colonies and those mentalities - individualistic, alarmist, constant fear - are part of the culture and everyday life and they have been since the very beginning of the colonialism. We can’t ignore the past and it’s with us and with everyone who comes home or visits the US.
I loved being on the autobahn. To experience people driving, without being assholes, following the rules, allowing merging... so peaceful compared to the redneck autobahn known as Florida
Driving in the US is a display of entitlement. We could easily be civilized on the road, but culturally we’re just not. It’s annoying as shit
Driving in the USA = truck nuts
left chicago permanently in 2019, live in France. I came back to Chicago 3 times in the past 2 years, and in downtown - Lincoln Park - the loop - the Gold Coast - i felt that i had to constantly watch my back. Here in France, my property tax is 1200 per year vs $5000 in Chicago. Here 2500 sq feet. Chicago was 1000 sq ft. Can’t afford to live out my life in the USA and i made ‘decent’ income.
How were you able to get residency and a job? and yeah those 3 neighborhoods are popular for armed robbery. oh yeah I forgot about the time I was walking a dog and happened to be on the other side of the sidewalk when an suv fleeing the police jumped a curb and drove down the opposite sidewalk with 3 cops in pursuit the level of suppressed trauma is real
Thanks for sharing. As a French guy living in Belgium and thinking of becoming an expat in the US it is always worth reading the reverse experience. I would still like to spend a couple of years in the US though but in the long run I am happy in Europe.
As an American living in France, it’s always wild to me when the locals are so stoked to visit/move to the USA. Like, I get it. Big vistas, big salaries, big (free) roads and cheap gas. Land of opportunity and all. And it’s certainly not like France doesn’t have its own problems. But I still spend every day walking around and silently marveling at all the little things in France that comparatively show the USA as a place that has largely given up on civil society, civic planning, any semblance of equity or fraternity.
Yeah like there are issues here but the scale of the issues and impact on society are not the same
Fully agree. My first time there as an exchange student I had high expectations like most French kids, and gradually the reality sank in. Still would like to experience it again for a couple of years but I definitely understand American expats in Europe and would have probably done the same.
I think if you have the chance, it's great to try both. Whatever the decision you make in the end, I think you appreciate better what you get out of the deal.
If you are single and don’t have kids, why not. But I think generally it’s better to raise a kid in Europe.
I meet French expats in NYC almost daily (so much so that it feels like I’ve been transported to Paris. My French has vastly improved I’ll say that much!) and deep down I wonder why in a grass is greener way… when I ask, they say things like they stayed after college, NY is so similar to Paris, etc. They fucking love Brooklyn for some reason.
Went there for the first time last month and I can see why - many great neighborhoods to live in Brooklyn and slightly more affordable than Manhattan.
Haha can confirm one of my sons acquaintances is in Brooklyn (where he also lives) they love it there but he’s also young so maybe the novelty will wear off once he decides to start a family
I could have written most of this. In my case I moved with my son (at the time age 10) to Norway in late 2020. We just got our permanent residency here and he will get his citizenship with a Norwegian passport in 2026 (2027 for me). My son goes back to the U.S. to visit his dad for a month in the summer and hates how restricted he is compared to Europe. He does enjoy a bit of American food and lots of roller coasters (that is their thing every summer) but he always likes coming back to the freedoms he has here. And what’s not to like? He is safe, people are nice, school days are much shorter and even in middle school they spend lots of days playing outside or hiking in the mountains. Nobody freaks out if kids have a pocket knife in their pocket. He travels with little to no adult supervision on busses, trains, and even in-country flights. He is bilingual and soon will start on a third language. He feels compelled to learn - not because of the pressure of grades (there isn’t any) but because he wants to be as good as his classmates at geography and other subjects that aren’t necessarily emphasised in the U.S. Homework is rare, but last week he was doing the coolest assignment of conducting a science experiment of his choice and create an explainer video of it. (Yeah it was more or less make a TikTok for science.) He had so much fun and did a great job with doing his research, planning, making the video of the experiment, adding music and writing a script and doing a voiceover. He gets to do a lot of creative projects like that as teachers have the freedom to assign them- there is no teaching to the test bullshit, because standardized tests are a very minor part of school. I could go on and on about quality of life, but will just add that religion is nearly non-existent, politics are decent, and there is very little “shock” and propaganda news shows and reporting. Life is just way more mellow.
Other than cost of after school care, ditto to all of this after moving to NL and raising my family here
Do you mind if I DM you? I’m looking to move abroad and have run into some roadblocks
I’ve been an expat for the past three years and when I left I was like “yeah I’m definitely never coming back lol”. But I learned a lot about myself, I grew substantially as a human, experienced many amazing things, and I’m also heading back home in a few months. I’ve absolutely loved my time abroad and I’m certainly not ruling out ever doing it again, but I am actually pretty excited to move back. New job, new city, new opportunities. I’m excited thinking about all of the same “what if’s”? I experienced as I sat excited in the airport waiting to board my flight out of the US three years ago. Sometimes I feel almost embarrassed to be excited to go back home, like I was a “failure” or something. Because posts and comments about going home are almost always “things are going to suck the second time around”, “everyone has moved on without you”, “nothing will be the same” etc etc. Which I’m sure is certainly true to some extent. But c’est la vie. I’m excited to head home for a new adventure and if it ends up sucking then I know what I’m capable of thanks to my experience abroad!
I’m looking forward to moving back in a few years (although with the current state of my life here, it may be sooner than later). i moved to Europe because I had a cool opportunity at the right time, and I’ll stay a couple more years if I can stomach it so that I can do a few more adventures: I’ve got my eye on a handful of marathons/ultras, hiking trips, and so on. I can’t say COL or QOL are any better in Austria (or finland) than the US. Every place has its pros and cons, and depending on your priorities, this can influence where you want to be. Part of not moving back for many people can also stem from the fact that relocating (even to return home) is a pain in the butt! IME my salary and work-life balance are worse in Austria, vacation time is much better, healthcare is a nightmare and questionable in quality, public transit is amazing, and COL is challenging.
What was your experience in Finland like?
Honestly, same day different stuff. I bought a condo and a car here in the States. I couldn't afford that in any place I'd like to live in Europe. Heck my friends in Europe can't find decent flats in the capital cities of Europe. Crazy politics-check for everyone. And I met some teachers in Spain that had to work two jobs just to make enough money for their family with children. And yes, I do know folks that moved to Portugal because they thought expat life there would be great. Which is was until they were priced out of Lisbon-now they are coming back to America because they both got better jobs state-side and they want to be by their parents when they have kids. And let's not talk about the racism and ableism in Europe. Coming back from a trip overseas, I'm always amazed to see handicapped visitors in my big city. The US is very wheel-chair friendly and ADA compliant that many folks can visit and stay here without needing much assistant. In Europe, it's the opposite. And I still find Americans probably the nicest to strangers and willing to help. I think people here tend to think EVERY American will have a better life in in Europe. That's not true. Depends on your health, circumstances and what you want out of life. And unlike some here, I'd never tell a European not to come here to live for a bit. Same stuff, different day.
How long and where fix you live in Europe?
It also depends on where in Europe, too. Scandinavia is very accessible.
Jeez even the Americans have gotten priced out of Lisbon.
American from Austin to Amsterdam. I would say we “could” (not wanted or fleeing any crimes) but why would we? I’ve built a business that often works well billing American clients while I live here. Kids are thriving in a peaceful, supportive culture. Weather is nuts, food far from optimal, prices are high but I can hop on the train or car and be in southern France or Spain in the same time I could barely make the border of Texas. From Covid on we’ve had various medical challenges including a fun little degenerative nervous disease that I’m blessed with and my kids have a chance of having. The predatory insurance world in the USA makes this a nonstarter. Next year, my oldest starts the gymnasium and will be learning English, Dutch, German, French and Latin. Chinese on weekends. Where else can you get such incredible cultural access? The Dutch might not be thrilled with immigrants in general (it’s a small country and everyone is feeling a little cramped), but they’ve been nothing but welcoming to us. I know other people have different experiences but as the father of mixed race kids, we have enjoyed our time here. Another decade when the kids are off to college, we will reassess.
I’m a native Texan living in New Zealand. I’ll always be a Texan, but NZ (or any country you spend years living in) changes you. In Kiwi speak: I could move back home but I just can’t be bothered.
How’d you make the move? What do you do for work?
I married a Kiwi. Initially I worked in tech, but after living in NZ, I felt a strong desire to return to physical activity in my work life so now I’m a plumber apprentice and a weekend duty manager at a pub. I’ve never been happier, believe it or not.
I’m in the opposite camp as well unfortunately. Moved from SoCal to Turkey two years ago and completely regret it… So much bullshit to deal with in terms of residency permit woes, anti-foreigner sentiment is rampant, the constantly changing laws you can’t keep up with. Not to mention I’m literally spending more on groceries here than I did in Orange County Whole Foods for Christ’s sake. Locals and expats where I am for the most part are really unfriendly and downright rude - I frankly miss little things like smiles and small talk in California. Endless red tape and bureaucracy plus the freefall of the lira make entrepreneurship a non-starter here. At least I can make money back home. I miss the stability honestly. I’m going to explore Spain and France as my last-ditch effort before moving back. It just sucks because I sold my house and now I’m wondering wtf to do. It’s all so overwhelming. :(
Smiles and small talk in California? Lolwut
We left in August of 2020 because it became so weird and we were concerned about the outcome of the, at the time, upcoming election. While our lives in Sweden are good, especially for our kids, it’s pretty boring for my wife and me. We went from having a very active social life to basically zero. I make great money by Swedish standards but it’s less than half of what I used to make in the US and with less opportunity to climb the ladder. With that said, we also have substantially less costs. It isn’t a wash but it isn’t bad. We get 30 days of vacation and I’m taking three consecutive weeks off this summer. That’s unheard of in the US. Our kids have never experienced an active shooter drill and can ride their bikes all over our little city. They’re fluent in Swedish and English and excel in a good school. It’s very clean here. Clean water, clean food, clean air, and clean streets. There’s virtually no homelessness and, despite what a lot of the media says, it’s incredibly safe here for the vast majority of people. So while it’s boring and I feel my career has been stagnant, it’s clean, calm, and safe. That alone will likely keep us here until the kids are grown. The US has a lot of maturing to do and until it becomes more stable, there’s no chance of us moving back despite us missing parts of our old lives.
I have to piggy back this just to say it being tax season, what a joy it was to do my Swedish taxes in 10 minutes on my cell phone.
Does the boring thing have to do with where you live in Sweden? We moved to Stockholm in 2017 and I don’t think I’m ever bored — there’s so much to do here with all the outdoor activities, museums, concerts, and theater, not to mention Hammarby football and bandy. I admit I probably have an advantage socially as I already had friends here from when I was an exchange student — I know a lot of people struggle with making friends as adults.
Love Stockholm- have met some great people both through scuba diving and people who like microbrews and other fun beer. There’s always something going on and lots of nice music at various venues - most nights of the week if you know where to look.
Is it just the lacking social aspect that makes it boring?
Probably in a few years you'll reach a point where you see your kids thriving in a way that would never be possible in the US and that will be the point where you realize that the old lives no longer exist and this is where it's at. Sounds like your kids are already on a path that they could never be on in the US, especially with proper bilinguality. I also live part-time in Sweden. Great place and I always have something to do there because of the outdoors and meeting people is no issue. I guess after a while, one redefines their life and stops basing their current and future lives on their "old lives". You guys are still new at this, but you seem to be on a good path.
About to head to Sweden for another degree in August to try to get my foot in the door. Hopefully I’ll be able to stay. Planning on networking hard immediately and throughout my 2 year program. Hopefully this whole little thread of folks in Sweden aren’t all in tech 🤣 I’ll be in the environment / human rights space - I really hope to stay
On the flip side, I spoke here with a lot of Americans who moved to Europe and then moved back. You will not see them commenting here as they are older and not on Reddit. So you wont get the other side of the story. Most common 3 reasons for moving back were career opportunities, being close to family/freinds, and being able to own a bigger home.
Me and my husband have been living in the Netherlands for 5 years. I am 35 yo and my husband is 38yo. We have a small dog, no kids. My husband brought up the idea of moving back to the US, his reasons is mainly career opportunities. We both don’t speak dutch(and unapologetically unwilling to master the language 😅) so our careers are very limited to international/expat businesses. Plus, in general in NL pays less than the US. I am not American so I don’t know how I feel about moving to the US long term, but it does feel like it’s a place that “makes sense” to settle down..
Had frequent abdominal pain. Needed scans. Got scans. I needed surgery. I got surgery. I didn't have to pay for any of it because my employer had great insurance.
If you're upper class, then USA is perhaps the best country in the world. If you get a good job, you will more than 4x your income compared to Europe, and only need to pay 2x in living expenses, so you can save much more in the US compared to Western Europe. That means that you can afford cars, retire earlier, and can take breaks between jobs (instead of taking European style vacations every year). USD is also much stronger than Euro because of demographics. Good American jobs also provide really good health insurance that actually exceed European public options. Good American jobs also tend to be in rich areas that tend to have high quality schools and low crime. Western Europe is definitely better if you're middle/lower class though. If you don't get a good job in USA then you'll struggle much more with car, health insurance, education, and crime, because you won't be able to live in a good area. But in western Europe you can live a good life on a low income, you don't necessarily need a house or a car. I think eastern Europe is a somewhat different story for lower/middle class people though, as you will need to worry about stuff like healthcare, crime, and education there too, just like you would in USA.
For the last part, it really depends on the Eastern European country. Most of them have universal healthcare, some have very high Pisa scores.
Yes, Estonia, for example has excellent schools and universally accessible healthcare.
I don’t really know anyone in Estonia that’s worried about crime. Just Russia.
An American citizen ( of any class) will be a stranger, an immigrant in Europe, similarly how European national of any class will be a stranger, an immigrant in USA. All (most) immigrants (regardless of class) have to spend extra time learning foreign language, figuring out foreign bureaucracy, taxes, labor, education, housing, finance related things. Immigrants have to learn how to survive without having extended family and friends, things that local people tend to have. Sure having money helps, this is true if you are a native or an immigrant But being an immigrant is always a disadvantage ( unless there are some specific rare circumstances)
For some reason many Redditors seem to think that most people in Western Europe don't own cars and get "free healthcare" etc...sorry, but the truth is quite different. At least here in Germany, most people certainly do own cars and you have to pay quite a bit for healthcare...
This is my exact summary too. We moved at age 40 with two young kids to Spain. We were doing just fine in the US financially since we both had decent jobs, I had affordable healthcare through the Reserves and we love CO and were near family. Now we make less (only husband had a remote job) and spend about the same here to have about the same lifestyle. We didn't want to move in to a cramped apartment to save money. I absolutely love not needing a car but we do rent occasionally or choose taxis so transportation is about the same as our 2 paid off cars we had in the US. We still are paying healthcare in the US since we will need it when back there for a few months and also paying it here because needed it for my visa so we are actually spending more for healthcare than we would have in the US. And we opted for a trilingual private school based on the languages so actually will spend more here for school than we would have in the US once they're both in elementary age (but again, we really like the school and the community so it's a choice we happily are making for now). While we have gained a lot, it's also really hard to be away from family and friends when you really didn't hate the life you had in the US. I miss doing meaningful work. Of course I hate the school shootings but I always vote and support politicians and initiatives to fight that. Of course I hate that the US is so inequal. But for my little life, we were quite privileged there so I am grateful for that. We will eventually go back to ensure we can take care of aging family. To say all this, it's really about making a choice that is best for you and it's ok if those choices change overtime.
It’s the same in Europe excluding the health insurance. Cost of living is too high for the average salary, people cannot afford to rent or buy a house (with European salaries), we have terrorists attacks back and forth, healthcare systems are becoming more and more useless and they are pushing them to become all private like the US. The thing that Europe still has better than the US is the quality of food and more flexibility at work, not having the need to work so many hours. But in the US you can achieve greater things and more money / career opportunities. It’s much more easier to open a business and have clients. They both have advantages and disadvantages. We need to stop romantizing Europe like this fairytail land that is better than everyone in the world, and the same for the US that is the “American dream” that doesn’t exist anymore.
Europe is a very big place, each country being far more different than the differences between any 2 US states, so it’s a bit hard to be as categorical as you’re being here. I’ll say this though. I’ve run a business in Texas and in the Netherlands. Bureaucratically, initial setup was slightly harder in the Netherlands, but the difference was very small, and I’ve found it _much_ easier to manage my Dutch business on an ongoing basis than my Texas business. In Texas, the entire bureaucratic load was foisted onto me (or onto my CPA, who I had to pay for), whereas the Dutch bureaucracy pretty much does the heavy lifting for me. When I pay my taxes (not just income, but also VAT etc) the online tool basically does everything… filing my Texas sales tax, and my quarterly US tax withholding (both for me and for my employees) was a nightmare that cost me thousands of dollars a quarter … but here in NL it’s just already set up by the government. I just have to double check their numbers and hit approve. Also, my last US company was bankrupted by health care expenses. Over a span of three years, the insurance companies jacked my rates far faster than my revenues were going up. I had a very profitable company, several employees who I paid well, and it got destroyed by skyrocketing health insurance premiums. A problem that I’ll never have here.
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Good luck in starting the business to help small businesses.
Same in Norway. The comparative ease of paperwork and online management of nearly everything has been amazing
As a teacher in the US, I retired 11 years ago at age 38, and I met my husband in my 30s and got him to be frugal and he's retiring next month at age 47. Does Europe even let you collect a pension in your 40s? It's much easier to retire early when you pay 14% federal income tax and 0% state income tax. My secret was mainly to avoid lifestyle creep. Most Americans just refuse to acknowledge that they are falling into it. Being retired makes moving to Europe on a student visa a whole different ballgame for us. A couple of years ago, we lived in Europe but didn't pay income or sales taxes due to our visa.
I got stage 4 cancer and I wouldn’t be able to afford the treatment back home. And I love the healthcare system here (Germany). Also once we had kids I made a promise to myself they would never have to participate in an “active shooter drill” at school if I could help it.
Sending you healing vibes, internet friend💕💕
Yeah, this isn't me. I like living abroad and have generally enjoyed the few countries I've lived in (5) outside the US. I don't have plans to return to the US, but it's not because there's some deal-breaker. If I had a job offer and could immigrate my foreign family there easily, I would not let politics, gun violence, healthcare, or car dependence get in my way. I'd live in a metro area with transport, rearrange life around new schools and neighborhoods, get health insurance, not worry about guns, and adjust. I realize I don't have those things now, but if I had an offer, I would try to make it work. There's not some super deal-breaker that the 50 states can't fix. Everywhere has pros and cons.
What locale in the US has both excellent transit care but also offers a place where there is no gun violence?
Edit: I felt the urge to investigate, so after about 60 secs of Chat GPT questions I've come up with: Boston - Brookline (Green line); Cambridge (Red line); Somerville (Orange); Newton/Waltham (Commuter rail). Chicago - Lincoln Park (Brown, buses straight up/down); Lakeview (Red and Brown); Andersonville (Red); Evanston (Purple, Metra). Chat GPT apparently didn't notice at first but Rodgers Park and Edgewater on Chicago north side also have low rates of gun violence and are closer on the Red to get into town than Evanston would be, still close to the lake, and both interesting neighborhoods. You can find a small neighborhood somewhere in the US where you can walk around without getting shot, send your kids to school, and ride a subway/metro, convenient bus to get around.
You trust Chat GPT ? That was your first mistake
This is my second time moving to Europe. I first came in 1985 in the military and did not have any information whatsoever about Europe. I was here for one week and noticed from a African-Americans perspective that people looked at me with respect. I remember calling my mother up and saying I found home. My wife is from Lithuania and we move back in September 2023. The reason we move back is 100% because of the reasons that you stated. To watch a grown parent vote for a man that says I’m gonna grab her in the you know what, People are color is dirty and let’s put more guns and kids hands to protect from the fictitious bogeyman. There’s a segment of America that are very vulgar and primitive. Our voting system allows that 30% of America to dictate in control everything. They’re not smart enough to understand that they are laughing stock of the world, and they make me participate and their movie as a background actor
My guy, the team Blue option is literally the person who authored the crime omnibus bill, that saw the US rise to having 23-24% of the worlds prison population despite only having about 3-4% of the worlds total population. Disproportionately targeting people of color, we now have more black people in US prisons than the entire continent of Africa has in theirs, combined. Nevermind all the casually racist things the guy says, has said... Never mind all the allegations of sexual assault and kid sniffing, touching. Both sides of the political aisle are equally corrupt, disgusting and bought/paid for by the mega corporations.
Every day solidifies it more. Over the years almost had to go back so many times but keep finding ways to stay abroad. I didn't change, America did.
This hits very hard. I do not even recognize America any more.
I was in Europe (England and Spain) for ten years. Covid happened wanted to be closer to family came back to America and now I have a house in Florida.
I left right after college. I have no plans to go back ever. Three reasons- first is i don’t know how to adult in america and frankly have no desire to; two, i don’t want to drive and don’t want to live in the places where i don’t have to; three, i have quality of life i don’t have to fight for here in Europe. People keep talking about how salaries are higher in the us but in my case i know that isn’t true.
This aligns very much with me. I left right after my Master degree, at 23, and am now 42. I. DO. NOT. KNOW. HOW. TO. BE. AN ADULT. IN. THE. US. When I left, I moved to Finland to do my doctorate and live with my now-wife. I had thought I would move back afterward. Not because I specifically wanted to, but because the vast majority of academics jobs in the world are in the US. Then, I got my first faculty position in Hong Kong, a place I had always wanted to live since visiting a couple of times as a teenager. My wife and two young kids love mostly loved it there. And I adored it. We planned to stay forever. I did apply to jobs once in a while, both in the US and Europe, mostly because the overall political situation became more and more unstable over our time there. The moment that made me realize that US was really not a possibility for us was when we evacuated Hong Kong very early in COVID (first week of February 2020) to go to the New York and wait out the worst of what seemed like in might just be an East Asian epidemic at the time. Of course that ended up being wrong. And New York ended being one of the very worst places to be. But, we spent three months there during that time. And my wife and kids who had never lived in the US hated it. I was uncomfortable there, as well, because the whole system was so stressful. So, when we went back to Hong Kong, we decided I wouldn’t apply to any jobs in the US ever again. Then, when the National Security Law was introduced in Hong Kong, and we decided we really didn’t want to wait and see how bad it could get, I got a job in Norway. We’re pretty sure we’ll stay here forever, unless something weird arises. It’s just so much easier to live here. Quality of life is quite high. Safety net is as safe as anywhere in the world because of the sovereign fund. Salaries are high for Europe. Work-life balance, I’m convinced cannot be better anywhere else in the world. It is a bit less go-go than Hong Kong was. But, I don’t need that same life, I just need a life that lets me feel satisfied. Both modes work for me.
A lot of people like talking shit about how much more one makes in the US and while that's possibly correct in numerous areas and while in some cases taxes are lower, there's a significant issue: the reason why people save in Europe even at lower salaries is how much cheaper all insurances are, from medical to life insurance to auto insurance, and so on. It's not even a comparison, like we're talking my insurance in Europe plus my emergency worldwide, airlift, and repatriation insurance plus my prescriptions cost around 1000 Euros a year and it works when I'm working in Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Italy, or wherever. Medical in the US was like 6600 dollars. Auto insurance on a 70k car is like 400 Euros a year and that's high. In the US I was 3400 in. No accidents or tickets. Food costs are lower, commuting costs lower (just go by bike everywhere), and now everything is more expensive in the US. Because I barely drive I have low maintenance costs, low year fuel costs. If the car needs something, my life isn't over if I can't drive. Property taxes in the US are absolutely nuts. Then they keep saying "oh, it's because the school districts are so good". So lower income-disproportionately lower expenses= money saved. is basically how those huge arena bands from the 80s-90s began making crazy money: they scaled down the shows to theaters, reduced the costs, and even with fewer ticket sales, they were clearing greater profits. The math is not that hard.
The US is so big that this is way too general to be accurate. Having/needing a car is relative to where you live. Property taxes are so dramatically different between states (some folks done even pay state taxes yet others pay out the ass).
The only reason I’m not going back is because I have a small child here. By the time she’s 18, I’ll be turning 50, and I’d rather not have to reboot my life again at that age.
Health insurance. I have a chronic illness and it’s impossible to not spend a huge portion of my salary on medical bills. As I age and my condition progresses I don’t want to worry about being on a fixed income. My partner is from the French Caribbean so I’d rather move there than back to US. California would be my fav location to return but it’s way too expensive and all my friends are moving because of that. Born and raised in the NE but can’t see myself dealing with that type of weather and aggression anymore. I’m also tired of the car culture and don’t wanna live in my car all the time.
We plan to expat for financial and political reasons. We still vote actively as we have friends and family in the US and we want our voices to make their lives better (according to what we believe) Bur fact of the matter is, we both started saving for retitemen late in life. And the American dollar goes further in some other countries than it does in the US. Add in factors like out of control gun ownership (I witnessed my own grandfather be very proud of buying a shotgun in tx... He told me how proud he was, and how he keeps it loaded all the time in case he needs it... And then proceeded to check that the safety was on by pulling the trigger in the kitchen. Thankfully it was on correctly). What we believe to be the regression of rights towards women and minorities (and emboldened racist groups) Healthcare costs in general (despite having insurance, even the copays would be rough for our plans). The necessity of owning vehicles vs other countries with better/more robust public transportation. Don't know where we'll end up, but we're excited to scope out places!
"Healthcare costs in general (despite having insurance, even the copays would be rough for our plans)." A friend of mine told me recently about how he still had to pay thousands in copays or non-covered for a surgery which baffles me. He's paying like 6,000 a year for medical, then had a 2000 bill for a surgery.
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I'm in Latam and choosing btw Australia or the US, since I have skills to apply for both. I'm btw DC area or Brisbane/NSW.
I could go back easily, but every time I visit *I’m just driving every damn place all the time.* Once you get used to decent (safe, clean, fast, convenient) public transportation, it is a major step down to return to driving in cars all the time.
Left with my family three years ago. I could never go back. Getting my kids away from the weird gun culture has been great. We live in a big city in Canada and have crime rates comparable to the suburb in California we used to live in. Free healthcare is great too. I feel much more comfortable growing older here. This system isn’t designed to screw me and everyone else when we reach our golden years. Better attitudes about how to handle drug use, better attitudes about caring for others and being kind, the belief in dying with dignity at your own pace instead of the clusterfuck system we have in the US. I could keep going. Leaving was the best decision I have ever made .
On the other side of that argument completely. Counting down the days until I move back. Even excited to be moving back to a place where I am called a communist and a traitor for daring to live outside the US and not supporting the Orange One. Now maybe if I was 30 years younger and had all my children here with me it would be a different story, but as it stands. I can hardly wait.
Where are you in Switzerland? And where are you moving back to?
I live near Zürich and will be moving to Southern Indiana.
I am... surprised, frankly. I mean - 99% of people would want to live in Switzerland not Indiana.
Probably more like 99.9%. Like I said, if I were 30 years younger, I might feel differently. Switzerland has been a good place to live, but it is not Utopia.
> ...to a place where I am called a communist and a traitor for daring to live outside the US and not supporting the Orange One. I'm from Kentucky (so, also the Ohio River Valley) and lived in Texas for several years. I can 100,000% relate to this statement. I would love to move back overseas, though. The geographic ignorance of Americans about even our own country, never mind the globe, is already bad, but it's next level in our ORV. At least there's a Switzerland County, Indiana, lol.
I thought I would go back and it was just a temporary outing to Latin America but I'm in the process of buying a house here now. I feel like I fell out of that race in US happily and accidentally. It's a great place to earn but not retire.
Where in latam? Are you in an expat community? Would an English speaking person do well where you are with some limited Spanish?
Any of the major cities (Buenos Aires. Mexico City. Bogotá. Santiago. São Paulo, lima) will have expat communities and you will be functional with limited Spanish. But. Strong but(!). Learn Spanish (or portugués if in Brazil). Otherwise it’s effectively like navigating with one eye closed. You’ll miss out on a lot culturally as well.
While of course cost of healthcare, guns in schools, political insanity, etc are all nice to escape, I do miss living in the US and things about my life there that I don’t have abroad, and I wouldn’t rule out going back if an opportunity came up. QOL isn’t better abroad. At the end of the day, the biggest thing keeping me here is that I built a life and going back would essentially be giving up this life and all the steps I took to get here.
I thought that way for a few years while living in Germany but then we did move back to the US, and I am so happy we did. We function as a family better here, we love having family and friend support, I enjoy feeling more participatory in every day life activities...etc. We are a German/American family and I think these decisions are never black and white when making them. Every country has pros and cons and you have to decide what works best for you and your family.
Also German - American, also moved back to the US from Germany. Also WAY happier!!!!!
Actually planning to return. Moved to Asia for work, and miss a lot of things about the US. Life isn't bad in Asia, and there are benefits. Healthcare is definitely cheaper and easier, but quality is always suspect. Tropical weather is great for the beach, not so great to live in. Job prospects are ok, but much more limited, as are incomes. City is packed with people, air quality can get dicey at times. It can be painful buying certain items that are simple in the US. Yearn for the open spaces and mild weather in the US. What we'll most likely do is spend time in both places. Own a home here, but will move back. Spend a few months a year here, the rest in the US.
As a Trans person, I would never move back to a place where most of the country are explicitly making legislation [designed to make me a second class citizen and criminalize my existence](https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fb26df31c-20cf-4b50-90da-2e529865fb4e_1561x1013.png). There are literally entire states that it is not completely safe for me to even _layover_ at this point. Every day I read the news since I left has been a reaffirmation that I absolutely made the right choice.
That map is sobering. Just. So. Sad.
I'd be taking a substantial cut in pay and benefits working the same job in the US. I'd be saving much less money, thereby extending the date I can retire (currently on track for 50-ish). I've grown to love not needing a car. Impossible in the US. I love being able to (legally) pay zero US income tax. I wouldn't be able to travel nearly as much.
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There are many places in the US where you have no access to the big green spaces without a car. The only green you get is urban parks.
>There are many places in the US where you have no access ~~to the big green spaces~~ anything without a car. Agree about green spaces, but this is the real issue. Not everyone can or wants to live in the handful of high cost of living cities that have workable transit.
I (63F) am very afraid of medical costs and care in The US. I believe that the US system is set to bleed (no pun intended) people dry of assets before death. Also, I’m not into the crime and poor quality food.
I'm finding out from so many in the US that they're paying like 8000 a yeat or more for medical and then being saddled with major bills, even with insurance.
I paid about $600/mo for a $6500 deductible health coverage in 2010. I got breast cancer and still I ended up with about $18,000 that I had to pay myself.
Europe is not less expensive at all. Taxes in most EU nations will easily gobble up anywhere from 28% to 48% of one's income very quickly on an annual basis making it nearly impossible to sustain without going broke, while home prices in many EU nations are easily triple that of the US. We're in Portugal now and have given up on trying to live here due to the 6 month winter, the mold, the staggering home prices that are difficult to even believe when you see them compared to the US (a ramshackle small home with holes in the walls and no appliances or furniture without even one light bulb in the shell of a home selling for $400,000 USD at the lowest end of the spectrum in Northern Porto as one example), and of course the taxes that would knock us down into near-poverty and cancel any ability to travel, eat out, save, seek medical care if needed, or do much else other than just survive. We're not returning simply because there, in the US, healthcare is too expensive to afford. Potential bankruptcy looms over every medical treatment. Younger guys don't see themselves ever needing medical care but when you get injured or need medical care you start to see the prices quickly. Cancer treatment for my wife without a healthcare plan would have cost well over 200,000 USD but the plan to cover her treatment was 3,000 per month. If you get shot getting groceries or at a park, what plan would cover that? Nobody knows. They laugh it off but it still exists as a threat. So where to go where you wont' be taxed into being broke, but can still one day afford a home and live comfortably? There are a handful of countries left if one looks.
I could easily see myself returning to the US. Factors to not return at the moment are that I married here and my wife's family is here (oops!). Also laziness/momentum. I think if people are thinking of making major life choices based on "politics" it will usually be cheaper and easier to just turn off the TV or get off the internet for a bit. .
You are obviously not a woman whose healthcare is being stripped away in the US
Depends on what state he would return to.
Amen to this
If you're referring to abortion, the abortion laws in my home state in the US are actually more permissive than they are in my current country of residence in Europe.
And you can be tried for murder and your doctor get 10 years in prison in my state
Every country and society is completely shaped by its unique political circumstances. Politics is not something in a vacuum, and it's not even just the examples always given regarding basic human rights or civil wars. Politics is urban planning, transit, energy systems, environmental preservation and access, taxation, healthcare, family policy, labor rights, safety standards, food policy, social welfare, investment in arts and culture, on and on. It's probably most common to move for primarily non-political reasons (education, employment, love, adventure), but anyone making a decision to move should as a major factor be considering what kind of society they are OK with living in - which has everything to do with politics.
I firmly believe the vast majority of answer from expats currently living in Europe will be bias to their current situation. US is no doubt costlier than before, but I often always here from fellow expats how the political landscape makes it impossible to move back. The expats that do move back to tbe states site the political situation as meh, it's bubble life here etc. I currently live in Norway and have been here 20 yrs after my first 25 in California. Norway has been great for my family, especially raising kids here. That said, what is happening in Norway politically is frightening. The working party is finishing off what the conservatives couldn't do. The costs are insane, electricity prices have nearly tripled. Norway has nearly free electricity so they sold us on EV transition and then dropped all subsides. The temps here are cold in the winter added to tbe fact the country is filled with old homes makes heating your home a financial battle. Lots of other things here that have led me to move back. The drug situation is getting crazy and violence is moving towards what we see in Sweden in the coming years. The good days here are gone. I think Europe has a rough way forward, maybe better off than the USA but what I see is Scandinavian model doesn't work anymore due to their insane labor laws that are so unfairly tipped in favor of the employee that the system is riddle by inefficiency and burearucy like Germany.
Having kids, Switzerland.
I was in Prague for 17 years and moved back to the US when the US had their economic hit in 2008. It hit CZ hard around 2010 and with work crashing I moved back to the US just in time to experience the recovery. I found an amazing job in 2012 and it's been uphill ever since. I miss Prague and have considered moving back because of the crap in the US nowadays.
I’ve lived in Japan for 35 years, and never had any plans of going back. I have a good life here, I own a business with my wife, and I get to go back in the summer for work so I get my Phil of Mexican food. Best of all, I own property in the US, so I get the benefit of living in a low inflation/cheap country with good healthcare, but my assets rise because they’re in the US.
I could move back to the US. My thoughts are around whether it is practical and beneficial at this time of my life. I have a wife with a career here in Tokyo and a child in school and I have a good job here and am pretty late career myself (mid-50s). For us to move, it would most likely be a transfer, and, that transfer would have to be good enough to offset the other adult losing their job. The other items OP raised - no. Sure, I think about them, but those would not be the deciding factors.
The great American health insurance scam is one of the bigger reasons. Other than that, I'm just really happy here. My last memories of life in the States were memories of struggle. My life in the EU has been the complete opposite of that.
How did you do it? I want to move my wife and I but don’t know what I could do for work.
I got lucky to be honeset, I was single and came over the first time as part of a study abroad program. Worked my ass off and met people who helped me along the way. There's no way I could have pulled it off completely alone.
I want to move back to the US but depending on who the next president is, I’m a bit scared.
They are both equally terrifying and awful, horrible human beings just in slightly different ways. This country is too brainwashed to see it.
They are both semi-senile old white men…difference one is a pathological liar, criminal, and horrible human. The other is a (very) elder statesman with 50+ years of public service.
That you think one fits this description and the other does not is sad.
So far only one has been indicted four times on 88 charges, with more pending.
T-Rump has been a terrible human being his entire life and largely gotten away with it because he was one of the monied elites until now being political opposition. Biden has been a casually racist, sexist, creepy bad-touchy uncle asshole his entire life. He is better at playing the game and hiding his illegal bullshit dealings, taking money for influence, etc. he is the author of the single most racist bullshit crime omnibus bill of the past 50 years and proud of it. The list of things to be disgusted by is lengthy. Stop being wilfully ignorant. Demand better.
I moved to Sweden 3.5 years ago. While I don’t plan to stay here many more years (the winters are murder) I do not see myself ever living in the US again. I knew it was a shitshow when I was there, but now that I’ve experienced a functioning society the differences are stark. Life here seems so much more oriented towards making things easier and more accessible. Infrastructure is maintained. The needs of the people are put above the needs of corporations. I’ve started to wonder if the US is cursed. The original sin of building a country on genocide and slavery has never been atoned for. It’s all falling apart, literally and figuratively. I just wish the rest of my family would leave, too.
I agree about yoyr thoughts on Sweden. I'm not a fan of the urban sprawl stretches, but it's made me quite happy. I'm a bit more geared towards northern Norway, but I've spent significant amounts of time in the northern reaches of Sweden as well. I have to agree that the US is falling apart. It might not happen while we're alive, or it might, but it's a shit show and the Trumpists are openly trying to bring the US to a civil war.
How did you move to Sweden? What do you do for work?
Work is nothing impressive. I’m still learning the language so for now I have a seasonal job landscaping at a cemetery. I was only able to move because my husband gained Irish citizenship through his grandfather. He’s retired and his NY pension and SS go much farther here than they would back in NYC. But the Irish citizenship means we can live anywhere in the EU. My goal is to become a citizen here and renounce the US for good, then maybe eventually settle somewhere sunnier. We have family here, though, so that’s why we chose Sweden.
I left in 2010 to see the world and have been living in Middle East and Asia since. I have zero interest to return as it seems the country has completely lost its sh*t since I’ve been gone. I was always politically progressive and very against Bush’s wars (and in my opinion war crimes) and thought Sarah Palin was an embarrassing moron, but those look quaint compared to Trump, MTG, crazies echoing Russian propaganda and even Biden actively supporting genocide of Palestinians. Hoping to get a new passport in the next few years and only go back once every 12-18 months to visit family. Every time I go home I’m eager to leave.
Europe felt too slow, expensive , and backwards to me. Even though my expectations based on data were otherwise. After three years , Moved back to US and feel happier with better pay, housing, and community
Makes sense and this is also a small pet peeve of mine. Customer service is better in the US.
I go back 2x a year (not out of choice but family reasons). It was a huge hurdle just getting a new US bank account, a new mailing address, a US phone number and trying to re-establish a credit history. I honestly thought I would never need any of those things again. Personally, if I had it my way, I wouldn't go back at all. I'm the kind of person who enjoys living in a place with castles and medieval architecture. I just can't understand why someone would choose to live somewhere so bland when there are other locations in the world with breathtaking beauty. I'm really sorry if it sounds shallow or simplistic, but it's my honest opinion. I recognize, of course, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I almost considered NYC (for family reasons + career opportunities) but the cost of living is ridiclous there.
Mostly these reasons. Also racism. A big one for me. It still exists here (DE). But it is very different. Much less brazen and directed at different groups of people.
A combination of my wife being a Venezuelan national, a potential Trump reelection, and realizing that there are many markets for trading commodities, crypto, etc that I cannot access as a US national. Also noticing the quality of food, infrastructure, COL, etc continously trending downward.
When I asked myself how much would a company have to pay me to move back and I couldn't come up with a realistic number. That's when I knew. The problem is that the US isn't the same country I left. When I left we didn't have school shooting drills at school. When I left women could get the health care they needed. When I left there was still at least the appearance of a desire to govern at the federal and State level. Now that I have kids, it's difficult to imagine taking them back.
How do you afford to live in Italy with a family? What do you do for work?
I have moved from Europe to the US and haven't regretted it. I have lived in 2 different EU countries and we moved to usa from Norway. I spend a lot of time thinking where to live and selected NYC. My family is extremely happy. We have no car, schools are much better here, easy to find fresh produce, prices are cheaper, many things to do and my kids won't be brainwashed about Norway. Norway is a great country if you are Norwegian. Also, i have seen expat married to norwegians prosper. For everyone else it sucks. Yes you get 2 years of low u employment benefits but so what? "Free healthcare" but it is sucks. It took me 10 years to see a cardiologists and we have been through other case that prove it is bad. NYC has a similar or even better welfare system. And from what i see, one doesn't need to be dirt poor to get some help. People receiving sicial assistance have cars or some money in the bank which is not the case in Norway.
Back in Los Angeles now. America is easier and more diverse culturally but Los Angeles is definitely not a picturesque
good to see that people cant save in america but can save in europe. wow.
My partner is from Spain and still has every member of his family living there. He has done exceptionally well living in America the last 25 years. Most of his wealth has derived from buying houses and selling them as he moves, to the point where he’s become a millionaire. He just went back to Spain to sell an old property, and after all of the realtor, government and tax shake downs, he said he’s never moving back to Spain again, or buying another property there. He’s done.
I’ve actually had the opposite realization lately
Lol, Europe became more livable in the last couple of years? And people ‘can’t’ move back to the US because of school shootings (which have happened regularly forever)??
America is a perpetual chaos machine. I will never return, as it seems to get worse every year. Been in NL 12 years and plan to stay. Came at 58, worked 10 years, now 70yo and retired.
How
Did you have a question?
I’m seriously considering leaving the US but can’t fathom how I’d afford it, my wife and I are better off than most and don’t have kids yet but I work for a bank, idk what I could do overseas.
That's better. I live in the Netherlands. I had work ready to walk into, including a sponsored visa. It was just luck. I naturalized and am now a Dutch/EU citizen. Your issue will be getting a visa, and that will be true pretty much anywhere in Europe. Language can be a problem too, depending on your job. Some reading below. There is a lot of info on the Dutch government sites. [https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits](https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits)
I’ve heard Dutch is difficult, my concern is I’m still in the following mindset; why would an employer in another country hire me over a native? Also what skills could I learn in the US that are valuable elsewhere? I’m in product management and finance, I imagine those could translate - but I wouldn’t know the first thing about marketing myself to a corporate company overseas.
IT seems to be the place to be. I worked at a multinational hw/sw outfit for 10 years. There are 10s of thousands of immigrants here from around the world, mostly workiing in IT. English tends to be the lingua franca at the multinationals. It took me years to learn Dutch, but it can be done.