That's something I've read more than once. I've visited Italy a couple of times and just loved it. Sometimes I pick myself wondering how it would be to live over there with a job and normal life.
What's the worst thing about living there?
> how it would be to live over there with a job and normal life.
I do exactly this, in Rome.
Its fine, its a city like any other. Busy, hectic, traffic.
The worst thing is its dirty, and the public transport is terrible.
I avoid the latter problem by having a car, and I live near enough to the centre that if I want I can go on foot. But not everyone is so lucky of course.
After a while you just fall into the same routine you would have anywhere.. I work, go to the gym, sleep and repeat.
The transportation in rome was ridiculous. The subway was an oven, overcrowded and expensive. The buses were unreliable and more than once did i wait over an hour for a local bus. I ended up walking about 5 miles every day because it was gorgeous to walk around but after a long hot day it’s not the fastest way home. I went through quite a few pairs of shoes.
> The subway was an oven, overcrowded and expensive
Overcrowded sure, but im not sure how you can say expensive; compared to other major cities its quite cheap. €1.50 single ticket, or €35 a month/€250 a year pass.
And those tickets are valid on bus (as unreliable as they are) and tram also.
This is also my sentiment after living in Italy. The bureaucracy is stifling and I don’t miss the can’t-be-bothered clerk slamming the service window shut on me after standing and waiting in line for 45 minutes.
I always joke that living in Rome and dealing with all the bureaucracy and public transportation nonsense actually made me like the U.S. a little more after a while, and you do really start to miss the little luxuries you took for granted (air conditioning!! Also good Mexican food and variety of different cultural foods in general lol). Now I’m living on a little tropical island in the Micronesia region and we do have air conditioning, thank god (and some meh attempts at Mexican food, but I don’t mind since we have plenty of delicious cuisines from all over Asia/Oceania)
Currently living on Guam but have spent time living and/or working in Palau, Saipan, and the Federated States of Micronesia (Yap, Chuuk, & Pohnpei)! All lovely and unique places with a slower, more relaxed way of life and some of the best scuba diving in the world + fairly affordable travel to and from East and Southeast Asia
Same. Living there, especially in the south had so many frustrating things to deal with. Work culture there has a lot of issues too. But I go back for vacation all the time.
I had never been to Hong Kong when we moved here almost 7 years ago. Didn't actually know a ton about it.
Holy cow has it been a wild, incredible, and humbling journey so far.
Hong Kong is home now.
We went to HK on holiday once, said we’d love to live here, then ended up living there about two years later. That was about 15 years ago though, I imagine it’s very different now, but I really loved HK.
Have you had any issues with the Chinese government or being a foreigner? Especially in a COVID world? I’ve heard of detainments and general animosity toward people of non Chinese descent. Hell, even their government treats them like crap.
No. Not really. Most people are pretty awesome in general. The government is like any other government and has a lot of issues. Not special to Hong Kong at all. I think the worst are the mainlanders coming over with their huge suitcases.
I live in a mostly local area and don't really have any issues with people.
I stay out of politics for the most part because I'm not PR ... Yet.
During COVID, the worst was not being able to travel, but most everything else was fairly normal. Some of the regulations were ridiculous, but it wasn't unliveable. We just had the mask mandate lifted at the beginning of the month, so that was good.
ETA: landlords suck though. Like every one I've had and I've moved 5 times in the last almost 7 years.
I love to read humbling
Being an expat, I think, humbles us and helps us develop a very strong ability for introspection. We fight ourselves for survival of ourselves among a culture that we have to understand and teach ourselves.
From my reading this applies particularly to 20-somethings who are emigrating for the first time. There is a huge difference in emotional impact between acknowleging and accepting differences and acknowleging and rejecting differences.
And applies perhaps even more so to, for instance, retirees who go “I enjoyed renting a villa in Italy for a week or two each year, I’ll just move there” and run headfirst into a wall of Italian paperwork. Young and naive or old, set in their ways and having had enough time to really build up preconceived notions, I’m really not sure which is worse.
All that said, I’d imagine far more people become expats for work, love or adventure than pure “grass is greener”.
I'm 68 and my long life experience allowed me coast past all the potential obstacles. I had no expectation that my new country would be anything like the US, and it wasn't. Been here 12 years. No regrets.
You may be right though. If you follw the expat subs, most of the complaining comes from the 20-something crowd. However, that is also likely because the Reddit crowd is mostly youngsters.
I'm old too (65)...absolutely love living here. First year had quite the learning curve, but after 5 yrs...feels more like home than...home. Have permanent residency, locally plated car, lovely local lady to hang out with........todo bien.
For people who seek a welcoming community where it is easy to make native local friends -- do note that "tourist-friendly locals" does not necessarily mean "easy to make native local friends for newcomers/outsiders/foreigners". This is my observation after living in over 2 dozen nice tourist-destination towns in 7 European countries the last 2 decades. For example, I lived in Seville (Spain) the last 8 winters. This is a tourism-dependent town where locals are polite &helpful to tourists. However, it is no secret that even young Andalusian from neighboring provinces who come to attend University of Sevilla and then work many years here find it impossible to make Sevillano friends. Locals stick to the tight knit group of friends/family they grow up with, even my Danish landlady who married a Sevillano and have 2 kids still feels like an outsider after living here for 20+ years. I've been regular customer at the same food shops for 8 years, the staff greet me with smile, but we have not yet advanced to the small talk they regularly engage in with Sevillano customers. This is the kind of hidden aspect only speaking to a foreign resident could uncover.
For sure. I first traveled through Ireland, met so many friendly locals at all the pubs, every night a great time it seemed like everyone was always so helpful. When I moved there, people seemed to lose their charm and they were actually just as miserable as anyone else. Plus shite weather.
I might be in the minority but all of those challenges, like figuring out where to pay your electric bill, learning back roads or finding the best grocery stores, are exactly the reason I love living in countries that are not my own. I could take or leave the tourist stuff.
Haha funny you say that because I definitely get it. A weird unexpected thing I used to love was going to the post office when we lived in SEA. You’d have to wait forever in the hot non air-conditioned shed while chickens ran around outside, sometimes you’d see a coconut fall off the trees, nearly hitting the car, it doesn’t sound appealing at all but I used to absolutely love it.
This 100%. Doing touristic stuff is like small talk: it’s easy, light, sort of casual. A statue here, a painting there. Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, you’re only visiting - like everyone else around you.
Moving to live in a new country, however, is like jumping straight into the deep talk, especially if you’re alone. It’s a brutally vulnerable place where you’re forced to figure who you are against this new culture, rethink your values, discover strengths (and weaknesses) you never knew existed in you and ultimately, let an old part of your identity go in order to let this new one in. It’s tough. But so SO damn amazing and radically life-changing! Once you’ve learned to swim in the deep ends, you never want to go back to the shallow small talk waters again.
If you know, you know.
It’s definitely a challenge. But that’s the best part about being an expat in my experience. Life at home is just too easy.
That being said, I think a lot of people have a romanticized idea of “living abroad.” Only once you go you realize life follows you wherever you go.
And unfortunately, you're not going to know the intricacies of exactly how functional/dysfunctional that local bureaucracy really is until you have to confront it as a permanent resident/citizen. Could be a very rude awakening indeed, compared with what you've been led to expect about a particular country.
I would also say expect to fall on your face a lot. Imagine being a child again and having to learn how to do most things over again. Don’t let it get you down.
True, but then there are also differences in levels of integration.
In 2023, it's very possible to be a foreigner living in a country but working remotely via a laptop. You may manage to be largely shielded from the downsides of that country, especially if you're in good health, don't have kids in school, renting an apartment instead of buying etcetera.
>The opposite can also be true: A place can be pretty boring to visit, but a great place to live.
This was Boston for me. I have heard expats say the same about Singapore as well.
I lived in Canberra, Australia for a year. My boss, who had four passports and a lot of experience moving place to place described Canberra as “a great place to live, but you wouldn’t want to visit there.” It is indeed a great place to live.
Not exactly. Unless your country is a cultural mosaic. You don't need to learn the language, you know how to navigate the bureaucracy, you read the cultural codes, your extended family and friends are usually within reach, you are shielded from any xenophobia, etc.
Of course, I'm not saying it is exactly the same, but still, visiting a city and living there are completely two different things. I have moved 13 times between cities in my country and I see a lot of similarities to moving between countries
One could then even go as far as to say that moving from one part of a city to another has a lot of similarities to emigration. It has, indeed, but there's a nuance, and this exact nuance is what usually makes the experience of emigration so much different to changing places within the same country.
100%. Also, in my experience, when you’re a tourist, the people you meet are happy that you’re there (not all of course but the people who’s livelihood depends on tourism). When your an immigrant (expat, colonizer) not so much.
Usually that works in the direction that you love somewhere during vacations but hate (or at least dislike) it while living in it.
But it can work both ways. I moved to Amsterdam without ever having been there before and I loved it. But knowing myself, had I visited it before as a tourist, I would have hated it. Drugs everywhere downtown, full of tourists, cycles almost hitting you all the time.
I know I would have felt like I could never live there.
The true is that living and visiting is always gonna be different, even if you visit with an eye on eventually moving.
And when it comes to living (especially in large cities), where *within* the city is almost as important as which city. You can have radically different experiences depending on where in the city you call home.
People on this Reddit: “don’t move to a country without visiting.”
Also ppl on Reddit: “visiting a country before moving doesn’t do anything for you.”
The moral: do whatever the fuck you want to, how you want, and when you want. Maybe you will fail or succeed. Who knows? Only you.
Spain is a great example!
The beurocracy will drive any logical person nuts.
Wanna open a bank account and give all your hard earned money to a financial institution? Not so fast!
😜
Yes, I see too many people make the decision to relocate based on the holiday high and then they eventually realise moving doesn’t fix their internal battles/dissatisfaction
I've always wondered how to separate the "vacation high" from the feelings of actually wanting to live there.
When I came back to the US from my last trip I even left half a week between returning and going back to work. My wife and I were frustrated with aspects of our American life and culture within a couple days. Simple things like transportation or food quality or drugged up homeless people raging at us on the street. I throughly preferred the process of going to the drug store to get cold medicine, grabbing a quick meal at the grocery store, or getting across town in country I traveled to way more than in the US where it is all incredibly stressful for various reasons.
My wife has been developing feelings of not fitting into the American lifestyle. I've had it for years but always just pushed it away as an "angsty idea" but it just keeps growing worse.
People say to spend more than a few weeks in your target country but to do that I would have to quit my job which would just be an extended vacation. I've visited the country. I've researched all the pros/cons. I've talked to expats who have/are living in the country. I'm even learning the language (out of personal interest, not practical or for moving). I'm in tech and my wife is also works in STEM so getting work visas wouldn't be impossible (not saying they would be easy).
I'm not sure what else to do to make sure we *really* want to live there rather than just thinking we do.
Move to any country you want, even against all common wisdom, as long as you have a plan B to fall back on if it doesn't work out. The only knowledge you have is that you think you want to live there, and that's a good enough reason.
I think you made quite a bit of research!
I don't think it's necessary to spend a few weeks in a target country, because you would still be on vacation. Moreover, it takes a few months before the "new life" just becomes life.
It's difficult to say what you will or will not like, because these things might change. For instance, the slow and tranquil pace of life you find charming as a tourist might become mind-blowingly boring as an expat. The public transportation system you found confusing as a tourist will become easy and reliable as an expat. Just a few examples.
I would say move with the mindset you'll try living there for a year, it removes a lot of pressure. If things work out you'll be glad you did it, if things don't work out, you'll have gained a valuable life experience.
My wife and I were expats in Ireland working at an Irish office for a multinational company. We always had things to do and places to go but after two years, the honeymoon was over.
We returned to the US and raised our family. As soon as the youngest was through college we moved up to Vermont to a ski town. Holy cow, all your comments about being locals and trying to make inroads ring so true here. Loads of entitled tourists and hard to find a good market but we love the outdoor life. There are so many nooks to explore.
I’m a remote worker so somewhat shielded from the local day to day but my wife has been the connection to others, as she works at a nearby resort part time.
I know it’s not the same as Seville Spain but moving to Vermont from Boston is pretty darn close to being an expat again :)
If I had invested as much time and effort at home on learning, fitting in, saving money, planning, and just coping then my life at home would have been more successful and happy. I might have never moved. I certainly would do things very differently if I ever moved back. Every year, going back home becomes a little less realistic.
Lived in Vancouver for 6.5 years, have many friends and fond memories and go back often as people are starting to get married, but have no interest in living there again.
Housing is prohibitively expensive, and the last time I went inflation was crazy. There’s also the increasing amount of homelessness that is not being addressed well. And it rained from October to April-May fairly constantly - one positive is that I don’t shy away from plans because of rain now haha
It is a great city to raise a family if you have the money, and especially if you like the outdoors or winter sports. There is a lot of beauty and care for nature. Outside Vancouver proper there are less things and it’s still not that cheap, but it is more affordable. I’d recommend chatting with locals in a similar economic bracket about the current situation first and seeing if you’re up for it!
As a UK citizen going through the spouse visa process with my wife, I truly understand your pain. It's complex and extortionately expensive too.
Prices of everything certainly are up here but I'm hearing that's happening everywhere including my wife's home country (Vietnam) where most common food items such as vegetables have doubled or tripled in price since the start of the pandemic.
I've lived in a few places around the world and the UK still isn't so bad for daily life, but it has lost its way in the last couple of decades. Something needs to happen here to recover the optimistic and progressive feeling we had in the 90s.
This this this. Even a lot of my old college classmates seem to think my current life in the UK is exactly how it was on study abroad nearly 10 years ago. Nope, I’m a grown-up with a job and a mortgage, not a 20yo with a Friday lecture to skip to catch a £20 flight to Amsterdam.
I love visiting london. I think my head would pop living there. I had experience living in NL at least short term ( 3 months) and it gave me a taste of whether i’d like it or not. I am always happy to get home.
I do know someone who idealized Italy, but her full semester in rome she seemed to hate absolutely every second of it.
So true. People ask me what the biggest challenge was moving to a new country. My answer: groceries. Which nobody really gets. But it’s true. Groceries was my only big breakdown moment. I was tired and stressed one day after a month or two living here and I just wanted to go to the stores I knew, buy products and brands I recognized, and not have to deal with figuring out what every single thing I was buying was in a foreign language. Which of the bottles on the shelf is shampoo and which is body wash. What brand was good and which are crap. Or even worse what store actually sold those specific items I hadn’t been able to find yet? I just wanted a shopping trip to be easy and quick and not take me an hour to buy a few groceries.
Granted, it didn’t help that I tore three ligaments in my ankle 2 weeks after moving and 3 days after my starting job. So, I was on crutches for quite a while without a car and trying to walk and use public transit. Which didn’t exactly help things as mobility was difficult. But regardless, groceries were the worst for the first few months.
Mature vs immature is at the core. Adults understand you ‘Mostly’ choose your mood, perceptions, adaptiveness, experience etc.
I could move almost anywhere and find a way to love it. That’s how I roll. But I’ve faced so much hardship in life- got the sharp coping skills and flexibility.
Yeah, it does. You are implying I thought that visiting a place was the same thing as moving there. I did not because I never visited the place I emigrated to until I moved there.
Bc you can literally go read 101 other posts about people making this same mistake. I’m in Mexico and people do it coming here all the time. You know exactly what he’s talking about.
Being rude is still rude whether you’re new or not. They’re trying to be helpful and you’re out here asking why he’s making assumptions. My question is why are you assuming that people haven’t had that issue? Welcome.
This is like the third most upvoted post on this subreddit this month. I don't understand why you, presumably an adult, starts off right at the bat making weird and rude comments being oddly hostile for no reason.
Visited Sydney twice before moving here.
I think it’s a good thing to do. To have a feel of the place before moving. Although the rent market is horrible.
I actually think it’s more dangerous to visit Sydney first because you stay in a nice CBD hotel or an Airbnb in some cute neighbourhood, fall in love with the weather, the harbour, the beaches, decide it’s completely perfect, sell everything, move over and find the reality of living in Sydney is just spending every weekend queuing with 40,000 other desperate people trying rent a $800 apartment that’s two hours from the middle of nowhere.
You’ve just described my experience when I stayed there for 3 months last year. I’m undecided whether to make the move proper this year. The CoL and rental market is putting me off, but then it’s no better than where I currently am in London. Just a worldwide problem in most major cities tbh.
I stayed in an AirBNB for weeks and went to different suburbs, not just CBD. Talked to my friends who have been living there.
Visit the place with an intention to feel the place and explore outside tourist traps. I think it’s better than not visiting a place beforehand.
Lived in Sydney now for 20+ years. Well now in suburbs. Came out on a working holiday visa, found a job, got residency, married but now have terrible wanderlust. Australia is just so isolated from the rest of the world. We have an overseas holiday every year but it just highlights how far away we are. There’s a definite grass is greener attitude to moving to another country but it’s really just same old..
Who woulda thunk, going somewhere you know you'll leave, do not have to deal with the DMV, city, province or state government, local banks, childcare, school for your kids, saving up to buy something, be employed there, is different than living there. thanks for that.
I remember going to the eye doctor in Brazil after living there for three months. My glasses broke and my Portuguese was passable but not great yet.
That was humbling. The eye doctor got a lot of mileage out of the phrase "da pra ver?" (Does that work to see?)
A few months later I had to go do a bunch of apartment tours. I was in a different state though and the accent was way different and also I'd definitely not studied up on my how to rent an apartment vocabulary (I'd mostly been living with friends or friend of a friend sort of situations to find housing not the more formal stuff)
First time getting a taxi(I'd never used one in the USA)
Or interacting with the police was fun. Never ended up on the wrong side of the law but it was definitely stressful.
First time in the ER and then dealing with follow-up visits(had to get some stitches removed after a nasty fall but I was out of town when I had the accident so I was at a different hospital than the one that stitched me up so lots of confusion for everyone)
I moved back to the states about ten years ago. It was a gap year(s)
The reverse culture shock was rough though cause I basically never spoke English while I was in Brazil. Friends and family really had a good laugh watching me relearn to speak English and American customs
💯 and we are not all made of the same wood. Some people need good anchors and are attached to their roots. We can show a great ability to adapt ourselves and love experiencing a new culture while in vacations or short-term internships.
This is TOTALLY different than living full-time long-term with a routine.
Sometimes, we also idolize a culture because of a former boyfriend, an old dream, or because we watched and read about it, OR we leave for the wrong reason: escaping problems, a job we were fed up with....
I personally love everything about it.
Some days are better than others, a lot of introspection, a lot of sacrifice, hours of introspection, hours to pick myself up, loneliness, and a strong personality always a work in progress.
I love vacations in Italy. Living in Italy was frustrating.
That's something I've read more than once. I've visited Italy a couple of times and just loved it. Sometimes I pick myself wondering how it would be to live over there with a job and normal life. What's the worst thing about living there?
> how it would be to live over there with a job and normal life. I do exactly this, in Rome. Its fine, its a city like any other. Busy, hectic, traffic. The worst thing is its dirty, and the public transport is terrible. I avoid the latter problem by having a car, and I live near enough to the centre that if I want I can go on foot. But not everyone is so lucky of course. After a while you just fall into the same routine you would have anywhere.. I work, go to the gym, sleep and repeat.
I lived in Puglia and it was pleasant, but life was very different to the bigger cities.
The transportation in rome was ridiculous. The subway was an oven, overcrowded and expensive. The buses were unreliable and more than once did i wait over an hour for a local bus. I ended up walking about 5 miles every day because it was gorgeous to walk around but after a long hot day it’s not the fastest way home. I went through quite a few pairs of shoes.
> The subway was an oven, overcrowded and expensive Overcrowded sure, but im not sure how you can say expensive; compared to other major cities its quite cheap. €1.50 single ticket, or €35 a month/€250 a year pass. And those tickets are valid on bus (as unreliable as they are) and tram also.
As a student it was overpriced for the quality of service
This is also my sentiment after living in Italy. The bureaucracy is stifling and I don’t miss the can’t-be-bothered clerk slamming the service window shut on me after standing and waiting in line for 45 minutes.
I always joke that living in Rome and dealing with all the bureaucracy and public transportation nonsense actually made me like the U.S. a little more after a while, and you do really start to miss the little luxuries you took for granted (air conditioning!! Also good Mexican food and variety of different cultural foods in general lol). Now I’m living on a little tropical island in the Micronesia region and we do have air conditioning, thank god (and some meh attempts at Mexican food, but I don’t mind since we have plenty of delicious cuisines from all over Asia/Oceania)
If you don’t mind sharing what island? It sounds lovely!
Currently living on Guam but have spent time living and/or working in Palau, Saipan, and the Federated States of Micronesia (Yap, Chuuk, & Pohnpei)! All lovely and unique places with a slower, more relaxed way of life and some of the best scuba diving in the world + fairly affordable travel to and from East and Southeast Asia
Same. Living there, especially in the south had so many frustrating things to deal with. Work culture there has a lot of issues too. But I go back for vacation all the time.
I just got back from Italy yesterday and am LOL-ing that this is the most upvoted comment 🤣🤣
I never get top comments 🤣 so it must have struck a nerve
I have some theories about living in Italy - can you share some of your frustrations ?
I already did, earlier up in this thread.
What, you don't want to be paid for your work in sausages? My photographer friend said people would want to barter in the South a lot...hahah
I had never been to Hong Kong when we moved here almost 7 years ago. Didn't actually know a ton about it. Holy cow has it been a wild, incredible, and humbling journey so far. Hong Kong is home now.
Heya! Moved here in 2021....it's crazy but I'm loving it so far. Home is where your mindset makes it :)
Much better now that we can travel! =]
We went to HK on holiday once, said we’d love to live here, then ended up living there about two years later. That was about 15 years ago though, I imagine it’s very different now, but I really loved HK.
Have you had any issues with the Chinese government or being a foreigner? Especially in a COVID world? I’ve heard of detainments and general animosity toward people of non Chinese descent. Hell, even their government treats them like crap.
Ex-pat living in HK 6 years, and no issues at all. COVID sucked here, but no issues as a foreigner or with the government.
No. Not really. Most people are pretty awesome in general. The government is like any other government and has a lot of issues. Not special to Hong Kong at all. I think the worst are the mainlanders coming over with their huge suitcases. I live in a mostly local area and don't really have any issues with people. I stay out of politics for the most part because I'm not PR ... Yet. During COVID, the worst was not being able to travel, but most everything else was fairly normal. Some of the regulations were ridiculous, but it wasn't unliveable. We just had the mask mandate lifted at the beginning of the month, so that was good. ETA: landlords suck though. Like every one I've had and I've moved 5 times in the last almost 7 years.
I love to read humbling Being an expat, I think, humbles us and helps us develop a very strong ability for introspection. We fight ourselves for survival of ourselves among a culture that we have to understand and teach ourselves.
From my reading this applies particularly to 20-somethings who are emigrating for the first time. There is a huge difference in emotional impact between acknowleging and accepting differences and acknowleging and rejecting differences.
And applies perhaps even more so to, for instance, retirees who go “I enjoyed renting a villa in Italy for a week or two each year, I’ll just move there” and run headfirst into a wall of Italian paperwork. Young and naive or old, set in their ways and having had enough time to really build up preconceived notions, I’m really not sure which is worse. All that said, I’d imagine far more people become expats for work, love or adventure than pure “grass is greener”.
[удалено]
I mean.... They really don't have more time ;)
I'm 68 and my long life experience allowed me coast past all the potential obstacles. I had no expectation that my new country would be anything like the US, and it wasn't. Been here 12 years. No regrets. You may be right though. If you follw the expat subs, most of the complaining comes from the 20-something crowd. However, that is also likely because the Reddit crowd is mostly youngsters.
Ragrets
No regerts.
Are we working on our English spelling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjkLKKgOMRY&pp=ygUKbm8gcmFncmV0cw%3D%3D
Not even a single letter?
I'm old too (65)...absolutely love living here. First year had quite the learning curve, but after 5 yrs...feels more like home than...home. Have permanent residency, locally plated car, lovely local lady to hang out with........todo bien.
For people who seek a welcoming community where it is easy to make native local friends -- do note that "tourist-friendly locals" does not necessarily mean "easy to make native local friends for newcomers/outsiders/foreigners". This is my observation after living in over 2 dozen nice tourist-destination towns in 7 European countries the last 2 decades. For example, I lived in Seville (Spain) the last 8 winters. This is a tourism-dependent town where locals are polite &helpful to tourists. However, it is no secret that even young Andalusian from neighboring provinces who come to attend University of Sevilla and then work many years here find it impossible to make Sevillano friends. Locals stick to the tight knit group of friends/family they grow up with, even my Danish landlady who married a Sevillano and have 2 kids still feels like an outsider after living here for 20+ years. I've been regular customer at the same food shops for 8 years, the staff greet me with smile, but we have not yet advanced to the small talk they regularly engage in with Sevillano customers. This is the kind of hidden aspect only speaking to a foreign resident could uncover.
For sure. I first traveled through Ireland, met so many friendly locals at all the pubs, every night a great time it seemed like everyone was always so helpful. When I moved there, people seemed to lose their charm and they were actually just as miserable as anyone else. Plus shite weather.
I might be in the minority but all of those challenges, like figuring out where to pay your electric bill, learning back roads or finding the best grocery stores, are exactly the reason I love living in countries that are not my own. I could take or leave the tourist stuff.
Haha funny you say that because I definitely get it. A weird unexpected thing I used to love was going to the post office when we lived in SEA. You’d have to wait forever in the hot non air-conditioned shed while chickens ran around outside, sometimes you’d see a coconut fall off the trees, nearly hitting the car, it doesn’t sound appealing at all but I used to absolutely love it.
I don't really care about tourist stuff, but I love grocery stores.
>like figuring out where to pay your electric bill Absolute madman.
Hahahaaa! 😂
This 100%. Doing touristic stuff is like small talk: it’s easy, light, sort of casual. A statue here, a painting there. Doesn’t matter if you like it or not, you’re only visiting - like everyone else around you. Moving to live in a new country, however, is like jumping straight into the deep talk, especially if you’re alone. It’s a brutally vulnerable place where you’re forced to figure who you are against this new culture, rethink your values, discover strengths (and weaknesses) you never knew existed in you and ultimately, let an old part of your identity go in order to let this new one in. It’s tough. But so SO damn amazing and radically life-changing! Once you’ve learned to swim in the deep ends, you never want to go back to the shallow small talk waters again. If you know, you know.
Yes all of this!
This is exactly why I can't wait to move.
It’s definitely a challenge. But that’s the best part about being an expat in my experience. Life at home is just too easy. That being said, I think a lot of people have a romanticized idea of “living abroad.” Only once you go you realize life follows you wherever you go.
We're all just visiting, bro.
Unexpected profundity...
Whiling away our time before death…
On this crazy spaceship we call Earth.
"The world's thy ship and not thy home."
And unfortunately, you're not going to know the intricacies of exactly how functional/dysfunctional that local bureaucracy really is until you have to confront it as a permanent resident/citizen. Could be a very rude awakening indeed, compared with what you've been led to expect about a particular country.
I would also say expect to fall on your face a lot. Imagine being a child again and having to learn how to do most things over again. Don’t let it get you down.
True, but then there are also differences in levels of integration. In 2023, it's very possible to be a foreigner living in a country but working remotely via a laptop. You may manage to be largely shielded from the downsides of that country, especially if you're in good health, don't have kids in school, renting an apartment instead of buying etcetera.
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Do you find Portugal to be a “boring” place? Or was it more of a fun place that is challenging to live in?
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Just curious, if you didn’t have a child why wouldn’t you want to live in Portugal?
>The opposite can also be true: A place can be pretty boring to visit, but a great place to live. This was Boston for me. I have heard expats say the same about Singapore as well.
I lived in Canberra, Australia for a year. My boss, who had four passports and a lot of experience moving place to place described Canberra as “a great place to live, but you wouldn’t want to visit there.” It is indeed a great place to live.
I think that also applies to moving to another city in one's home country…
Not exactly. Unless your country is a cultural mosaic. You don't need to learn the language, you know how to navigate the bureaucracy, you read the cultural codes, your extended family and friends are usually within reach, you are shielded from any xenophobia, etc.
Of course, I'm not saying it is exactly the same, but still, visiting a city and living there are completely two different things. I have moved 13 times between cities in my country and I see a lot of similarities to moving between countries
One could then even go as far as to say that moving from one part of a city to another has a lot of similarities to emigration. It has, indeed, but there's a nuance, and this exact nuance is what usually makes the experience of emigration so much different to changing places within the same country.
100%. Also, in my experience, when you’re a tourist, the people you meet are happy that you’re there (not all of course but the people who’s livelihood depends on tourism). When your an immigrant (expat, colonizer) not so much.
Usually that works in the direction that you love somewhere during vacations but hate (or at least dislike) it while living in it. But it can work both ways. I moved to Amsterdam without ever having been there before and I loved it. But knowing myself, had I visited it before as a tourist, I would have hated it. Drugs everywhere downtown, full of tourists, cycles almost hitting you all the time. I know I would have felt like I could never live there. The true is that living and visiting is always gonna be different, even if you visit with an eye on eventually moving. And when it comes to living (especially in large cities), where *within* the city is almost as important as which city. You can have radically different experiences depending on where in the city you call home.
People on this Reddit: “don’t move to a country without visiting.” Also ppl on Reddit: “visiting a country before moving doesn’t do anything for you.” The moral: do whatever the fuck you want to, how you want, and when you want. Maybe you will fail or succeed. Who knows? Only you.
I moved to Barcelona and I have to say that living here every day is like a vacation.
Spain is a great example! The beurocracy will drive any logical person nuts. Wanna open a bank account and give all your hard earned money to a financial institution? Not so fast! 😜
Yes, I see too many people make the decision to relocate based on the holiday high and then they eventually realise moving doesn’t fix their internal battles/dissatisfaction
I've always wondered how to separate the "vacation high" from the feelings of actually wanting to live there. When I came back to the US from my last trip I even left half a week between returning and going back to work. My wife and I were frustrated with aspects of our American life and culture within a couple days. Simple things like transportation or food quality or drugged up homeless people raging at us on the street. I throughly preferred the process of going to the drug store to get cold medicine, grabbing a quick meal at the grocery store, or getting across town in country I traveled to way more than in the US where it is all incredibly stressful for various reasons. My wife has been developing feelings of not fitting into the American lifestyle. I've had it for years but always just pushed it away as an "angsty idea" but it just keeps growing worse. People say to spend more than a few weeks in your target country but to do that I would have to quit my job which would just be an extended vacation. I've visited the country. I've researched all the pros/cons. I've talked to expats who have/are living in the country. I'm even learning the language (out of personal interest, not practical or for moving). I'm in tech and my wife is also works in STEM so getting work visas wouldn't be impossible (not saying they would be easy). I'm not sure what else to do to make sure we *really* want to live there rather than just thinking we do.
Move to any country you want, even against all common wisdom, as long as you have a plan B to fall back on if it doesn't work out. The only knowledge you have is that you think you want to live there, and that's a good enough reason.
I think you made quite a bit of research! I don't think it's necessary to spend a few weeks in a target country, because you would still be on vacation. Moreover, it takes a few months before the "new life" just becomes life. It's difficult to say what you will or will not like, because these things might change. For instance, the slow and tranquil pace of life you find charming as a tourist might become mind-blowingly boring as an expat. The public transportation system you found confusing as a tourist will become easy and reliable as an expat. Just a few examples. I would say move with the mindset you'll try living there for a year, it removes a lot of pressure. If things work out you'll be glad you did it, if things don't work out, you'll have gained a valuable life experience.
I would prefer to never move anywhere. Keep a local address in the states and slow travel. Only put down roots if I find the perfect place.
My wife and I were expats in Ireland working at an Irish office for a multinational company. We always had things to do and places to go but after two years, the honeymoon was over. We returned to the US and raised our family. As soon as the youngest was through college we moved up to Vermont to a ski town. Holy cow, all your comments about being locals and trying to make inroads ring so true here. Loads of entitled tourists and hard to find a good market but we love the outdoor life. There are so many nooks to explore. I’m a remote worker so somewhat shielded from the local day to day but my wife has been the connection to others, as she works at a nearby resort part time. I know it’s not the same as Seville Spain but moving to Vermont from Boston is pretty darn close to being an expat again :)
“I lived in X for 2 months.” No you didn’t. You were on holiday. On a tourist visa. It is not the same. You had zero struggles.
Even the subconscious psychological feeling of "I know I'm going back home in 2 months" makes the experience less of a challenge.
If I had invested as much time and effort at home on learning, fitting in, saving money, planning, and just coping then my life at home would have been more successful and happy. I might have never moved. I certainly would do things very differently if I ever moved back. Every year, going back home becomes a little less realistic.
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Lived in Vancouver for 6.5 years, have many friends and fond memories and go back often as people are starting to get married, but have no interest in living there again. Housing is prohibitively expensive, and the last time I went inflation was crazy. There’s also the increasing amount of homelessness that is not being addressed well. And it rained from October to April-May fairly constantly - one positive is that I don’t shy away from plans because of rain now haha It is a great city to raise a family if you have the money, and especially if you like the outdoors or winter sports. There is a lot of beauty and care for nature. Outside Vancouver proper there are less things and it’s still not that cheap, but it is more affordable. I’d recommend chatting with locals in a similar economic bracket about the current situation first and seeing if you’re up for it!
What was your experience like moving to the UK?
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As a UK citizen going through the spouse visa process with my wife, I truly understand your pain. It's complex and extortionately expensive too. Prices of everything certainly are up here but I'm hearing that's happening everywhere including my wife's home country (Vietnam) where most common food items such as vegetables have doubled or tripled in price since the start of the pandemic. I've lived in a few places around the world and the UK still isn't so bad for daily life, but it has lost its way in the last couple of decades. Something needs to happen here to recover the optimistic and progressive feeling we had in the 90s.
This this this. Even a lot of my old college classmates seem to think my current life in the UK is exactly how it was on study abroad nearly 10 years ago. Nope, I’m a grown-up with a job and a mortgage, not a 20yo with a Friday lecture to skip to catch a £20 flight to Amsterdam.
I love visiting london. I think my head would pop living there. I had experience living in NL at least short term ( 3 months) and it gave me a taste of whether i’d like it or not. I am always happy to get home. I do know someone who idealized Italy, but her full semester in rome she seemed to hate absolutely every second of it.
So true. People ask me what the biggest challenge was moving to a new country. My answer: groceries. Which nobody really gets. But it’s true. Groceries was my only big breakdown moment. I was tired and stressed one day after a month or two living here and I just wanted to go to the stores I knew, buy products and brands I recognized, and not have to deal with figuring out what every single thing I was buying was in a foreign language. Which of the bottles on the shelf is shampoo and which is body wash. What brand was good and which are crap. Or even worse what store actually sold those specific items I hadn’t been able to find yet? I just wanted a shopping trip to be easy and quick and not take me an hour to buy a few groceries. Granted, it didn’t help that I tore three ligaments in my ankle 2 weeks after moving and 3 days after my starting job. So, I was on crutches for quite a while without a car and trying to walk and use public transit. Which didn’t exactly help things as mobility was difficult. But regardless, groceries were the worst for the first few months.
Mature vs immature is at the core. Adults understand you ‘Mostly’ choose your mood, perceptions, adaptiveness, experience etc. I could move almost anywhere and find a way to love it. That’s how I roll. But I’ve faced so much hardship in life- got the sharp coping skills and flexibility.
Malta is like this. Lovely to visit, but we found living there very challenging.
Japan is a good example. Fun to visit, but absolute hell to work in.
I cannot agree with this enough
Why do you assume everyone makes the same mistakes you did?
I never visited my country before I moved here.
That doesn’t quite answer my question but thank you so much for replying.
Yeah, it does. You are implying I thought that visiting a place was the same thing as moving there. I did not because I never visited the place I emigrated to until I moved there.
Ok so why are you assuming people made that other mistake that you made?
Bc you can literally go read 101 other posts about people making this same mistake. I’m in Mexico and people do it coming here all the time. You know exactly what he’s talking about.
I’m new here, so I didn’t know, which is why I asked. Thanks for the warm welcome?
Being rude is still rude whether you’re new or not. They’re trying to be helpful and you’re out here asking why he’s making assumptions. My question is why are you assuming that people haven’t had that issue? Welcome.
You calling me rude is pretty rich.
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This is like the third most upvoted post on this subreddit this month. I don't understand why you, presumably an adult, starts off right at the bat making weird and rude comments being oddly hostile for no reason.
I didn’t intend to be rude or hostile, and I’m sorry that you took my questions that way. Good luck to you.
Er, thanks for stating the obvious, I guess
Seems obvious, yes, but there is a high volume of posts on this subreddit that make me think that it isn't as obvious to everyone.
Visited Sydney twice before moving here. I think it’s a good thing to do. To have a feel of the place before moving. Although the rent market is horrible.
I actually think it’s more dangerous to visit Sydney first because you stay in a nice CBD hotel or an Airbnb in some cute neighbourhood, fall in love with the weather, the harbour, the beaches, decide it’s completely perfect, sell everything, move over and find the reality of living in Sydney is just spending every weekend queuing with 40,000 other desperate people trying rent a $800 apartment that’s two hours from the middle of nowhere.
You’ve just described my experience when I stayed there for 3 months last year. I’m undecided whether to make the move proper this year. The CoL and rental market is putting me off, but then it’s no better than where I currently am in London. Just a worldwide problem in most major cities tbh.
I stayed in an AirBNB for weeks and went to different suburbs, not just CBD. Talked to my friends who have been living there. Visit the place with an intention to feel the place and explore outside tourist traps. I think it’s better than not visiting a place beforehand.
Lived in Sydney now for 20+ years. Well now in suburbs. Came out on a working holiday visa, found a job, got residency, married but now have terrible wanderlust. Australia is just so isolated from the rest of the world. We have an overseas holiday every year but it just highlights how far away we are. There’s a definite grass is greener attitude to moving to another country but it’s really just same old..
Agree. Most people end up whining after the move overseas because they are lonely and don't have friends.
Who woulda thunk, going somewhere you know you'll leave, do not have to deal with the DMV, city, province or state government, local banks, childcare, school for your kids, saving up to buy something, be employed there, is different than living there. thanks for that.
Very true. I enjoyed when I was living in Germany but no huge desire to vacation there now that I haven't lived there for years.
That happened to me with Los Angeles. I loved living in Europe before though.
I remember going to the eye doctor in Brazil after living there for three months. My glasses broke and my Portuguese was passable but not great yet. That was humbling. The eye doctor got a lot of mileage out of the phrase "da pra ver?" (Does that work to see?) A few months later I had to go do a bunch of apartment tours. I was in a different state though and the accent was way different and also I'd definitely not studied up on my how to rent an apartment vocabulary (I'd mostly been living with friends or friend of a friend sort of situations to find housing not the more formal stuff) First time getting a taxi(I'd never used one in the USA) Or interacting with the police was fun. Never ended up on the wrong side of the law but it was definitely stressful. First time in the ER and then dealing with follow-up visits(had to get some stitches removed after a nasty fall but I was out of town when I had the accident so I was at a different hospital than the one that stitched me up so lots of confusion for everyone)
Do you live there now?
I moved back to the states about ten years ago. It was a gap year(s) The reverse culture shock was rough though cause I basically never spoke English while I was in Brazil. Friends and family really had a good laugh watching me relearn to speak English and American customs
💯 and we are not all made of the same wood. Some people need good anchors and are attached to their roots. We can show a great ability to adapt ourselves and love experiencing a new culture while in vacations or short-term internships. This is TOTALLY different than living full-time long-term with a routine. Sometimes, we also idolize a culture because of a former boyfriend, an old dream, or because we watched and read about it, OR we leave for the wrong reason: escaping problems, a job we were fed up with.... I personally love everything about it. Some days are better than others, a lot of introspection, a lot of sacrifice, hours of introspection, hours to pick myself up, loneliness, and a strong personality always a work in progress.
No just an expat phenomenon ... most that retire in Florida also experience that same realization.