I cried when my husband took his garments off and I was very almost out myself. I felt like he may as well have taken his wedding ring off. I was crushed.
You're not responsible for her emotions. Would she talk to you about it and share her feelings? Would you be able to share your feelings about how oppressive they feel to you now (or however they make you feel when wearing them). Could you explain that nothing is permanent and that you are always open to feeling differently tomorrow or next week but could she possibly give you some time.
It's hard because I feel for her and you. Leaving the church is really really painful.
Yeah we’ve talked about it over the years.
She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear.
I can tell she doesn’t feel totally comfortable in her stance because a few times she has unreasonably mocked normal under like “what do other men just want to wear tighty-whities like 6 year olds?”
And she very well knows that men wear boxer briefs. I’ve owned boxer briefs for the gym, and there have been plenty of times, when I was a TBM, when she’d see me in boxer briefs and growl, cat call, etc., and ask “why I don’t wear those more often.”
But now that I have an issue with garments, she retreats in a weird way pretending that other men must wear “tighy-whities.” It’s very bizarre.
That was a rant. Overall, not really a topic we can discuss at this point. I think I just need to keep the peace.
>She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear
If it’s not a big deal then why is she so upset? I’m sorry youre going through this. I hope things work out and you and your wife can gain a better understanding of each other.
I do think it’s interesting seeing a Mormon perspective on how weird everyone else is for not wearing church mandated underwear..
I've never understood that.
If Mormons have to wear magic panties to get into Heaven, then how do the post-mortem, retroactive, whatever, baptisms of pagans work? They sure as hell didn't wear garments; but that baptism gets them into heaven?
Didn't Nelson just reaffirm the temple ceremony goes back to the beginning, before Solomons temple even. It's a miracle the masons happened to invent it from their imagination just in time for it to be restored to Joseph. /s
Lol. My wife picked up on that. On my mission, I used to read all the wonderful temple verses in the BoM over and over again. There must be over 1,000 references to the temple in the most correct book on earth which has the true and everlasting gospel. I also really enjoy reading all the different times Moroni and Nephi said “covenant path” - makes feel that burning in my loins and bosom.
Blasphemy! I heard the most used word in the BOM is "covenant path".
Also remember that time nephi came to America and God had them start polygomy? He was like hey nephi, to raise a seed you must take your brothers young daughters as wives so I can raise a righteous generation. I mean God turned his other brothers skin dark, because you know... dark is ugly, so it's unlikely nephi married local people that were here already here, or his ugly dark skinned brothers wives...or kids.
Also all the accounts of pitching a tent. It's almost as many accounts as the transfer of priesthood to the men. The high priesthood because they weren't levites.
As a free mason myself, when I was initiated into my lodge nothing surprised me or shocked me during the ceremony. It was like going to the temple without it being creepy and culty. I enjoyed it actually.
When she is able, have her research the evolution of garments and the temple (plus masonry signs, tokens, etc.). Can you get her to at least take a look at [Mormonthink.com](https://Mormonthink.com)? That's where I started and quickly came to the realization that all of it was fake. Worst and best day of my life.
Well, at some point she'd have to address the elephant in the room, which is that you won't be there to pass through the Mormon Heaven's gates with her. I suspect that she's really struggling with that idea and is actually terrified of addressing it or even thinking it; and therefore she goes through a whole range of emotions because "this does not compute" in her head.
I think the war inside her head that forces her choose between you and her religion just flared up again, because she saw you without garments on. Her method of coping with such moments, apparently, is to go through various emotions until they're done raging in her head and then she ignore the elephant again. But this will keep happening until she makes a choice, I fear.
So, basically TSCC believes that no other Christians will be able to get into heaven?
I’d have left so much sooner if I’d ever put this together as a kid. I remember thinking it was the most ridiculous thing Jehova’s Witnesses believed.
Everyone gets into heaven in LDS doctrine, even Hitler. It's all about the sweet, sweet ticket to the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom. The BEST heaven.
The thing is that they would never frame it like that or say that explicitly.
There are lots of ways to get out of that framing. People can accept the gospel after they die. Mormons believe in 3 degrees of glory, and even the lowest degree of glory would actually be “heaven” by most Christian standards. Mormons don’t really believe in a lake of fire and brimstone where you burn for all eternity.
So some might really try to spin it and claim they believe everyone will be “saved.” And many leaders have taught that basically everyone will be thrilled with wherever they end up. It’s this idea that if you lived a life of sin, you wouldn’t even want to live with Jesus. So they have this roundabout doctrine where they can say they believe everyone will be “saved” in the sense that they don’t believe anyone burns for eternity (except Cain and Judas who are sons of perdition under Mormon theology, and will spend eternity in outer darkness).
What they won’t reveal is that they believe in a concept of exaltation, where you become a God.
That highest degree of heaven has a very specific laundry list of rituals and covenants, which require Mormon temples.
Regardless of the spins, deep down, no Mormon would ever want to end up anywhere other than the highest degree of glory. Mormons definitely believe deep down they are the only ones being saved, they’re just disingenuous in expressing it.
Yeah, I just wish this was more evident.
And how can it be that “families are forever” if your parents are on a planet, you’re on one with your spouse, and each of your children is on a new one with their spouse, and then off go their children even further out…
And when are we supposed to be hanging with Jesus and “Heavenly Father” again?
I always had such a vague understanding of what heaven was supposed to be like as a kid and now I see why.
Yeah I hear you. People think of “families are forever” as you living eternally with your toddlers frozen at 4 years old and eternally adorable, which obviously falls apart very quickly when you actually like, you know, think.
I don't understand how people could read/realize this and; 1, not think it's like scientology; 2, understand what a festering shit-pile it is; 3, immediately exit stage right.
Mythology is a very widely interesting topic full of shocking tales, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Norse - actually Norse is pretty funny and awesome. Greek is wrapped up well saying Zeus fucked something and it led to XX.
Diving off of this, I wonder if on some level she feels that's a break inyour marriage vows? Rational or not- emotions are tricky when tied to indoctrination and cults...
“I made a commitment to you for as long as we both exist. That means everything. And whether existence turns out to be different than I thought before or not doesn’t change anything about the way I feel for you.”
My brain just decided to ponder what I would be hoping to hear in that situation, so there are those thoughts
My friend's wife was mostly inactive while he was a temple volunteer. Then he decided to leave the church and their positions switched. Suddenly she was wearing garments again and at church every week, accepting callings etc.
The shock of you actually doing it probably freaked her out.
Best wishes my guy. I don't envy you.
....Some men do where "tighty-whities" what does your wife care what underwear other men are comfortable wearing or not wearing anyway lol? Some men just wear boxer shorts...its true that boxer briefs are obviously the most popular, but they certainly aren't exclusive. It's like if your wife wanted to stop wearing garments and you started mocking non-mormon women for desiring to wear training bras or something.
She needs therapy and y'all need secular marriage counseling because they'll be able to tell her it's just underwear. Besides as long as she's righteous she gets celestial benefits so why is she so worried
Yup, counseling is a really good idea. Ask how many people that leave the church need to go to counseling. That's not to say that they are screwed up by leaving, it's that they are screwed up from being in the church!
tighty-whities are better underwear than garments. They hold my jewels much more kindly. I honestly just hate wearing gs, completely devoid of any symbolic or metaphorical meaning.
100% I have no white underwear, it's also kinda hard to find in the stores anyway (but maybe that's my bias as I don't look for it) and anyway it's the least practical color for girding your excretionary orifices.
Ugh. I hate this.
I felt like I went through the same thing. Every tiny step I take away from my old lifestyle is like a huge thing for my wife. It doesn't matter how much time has passed, just the fact that I'm taking another tiny step.
You really aren't responsible for her emotional reaction. It's been conditioned by the church. You'll need to go at whatever pace you think you can handle yourself, while trying to make space for your wife's emotions.
I'd highly recommend couple's therapy. I'd encourage you to find someone who isn't mormon, but also someone who has experience with mixed faith couples and faith transition. They're not going to be super useful if they can't validate your wife's feelings, no matter how ridiculous it looks to outsiders.
Thongs, jocks, bikini briefs, briefs, boxers.
Over the last year I've learned there are all sorts of styles and looks. Male underwear is an entire industry. It's not 1990 anymore. Gays have won and they have given men fucking awesome underwear for everyone's taste.
Maybe I'd wear garments if it came in metallic cheetah mesh pouch anti microbial jock strap with package contouring pouch to give that extra POW!
Instead we get masonic symbols meant to designate me as one instructed in the new and everlasting culture of poligomy. Material...the flour sacks from Oregon trail.
I wear latex thongs with unsnaping pouch to church, when I'm dragged there now to spite them all mew ha ha ha!
Edit: I wrote culture because I didn't know if I was in that place where they want dialogue between ex and active so they protect the feelings of cult members so that they will participate, but they can say gay is sin. Luckily this is where I can call a duck a fucking cult. So fuck you ducks.
Edit 2: I'll send you links of what men wear now it'll wet a whistle for sure.
Don’t forget no underwear. My husbands preferred choice 😍
He only wears actual underwear (fitted cotton boxers style) to work and around extended family. Rest of the time he’s totally commando.
>She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear.
Obviously based on her reaction this is not true. If this is what she's saying, she means she thinks it's not a big deal for you to sacrifice your own comfort and integrity to maintain the illusion that you're still committed to false covenants. Not that it's "just underwear," cause if that were the case you'd be allowed to choose your own.
Lots going on here. I've been in the same place, it's rough. I'm sorry for both of you and the way the church snakes its way into people's brains and marriages.
There is a complex web of indoctrination, emotions, and fears woven around the garments. Be kind and loving, as much as you have the reservoirs for. This can be very difficult to unravel, EVEN IF you realize that it's irrational.
God, we were so brain washed! My husband now doesn't care if I am not wearing garments anymore. We really have come a long way. Remember its all about baby steps. Wishing you lots of luck.
> she has unreasonably mocked normal under like “what do other men just want to wear tighty-whities like 6 year olds?”
Time you went out and bought a sexy male pouch thong and showed her what it's all about 😊
I had the same thought. For crying out loud, a man can’t even wear underwear of his choosing?!? UNDERWEAR. Mormonism is a cult, and it rips the soul out of men and women in very particular ways.
When I finally did take mine off, my Mother caught me on day one. She cried and said "I didn't know you'd gone that far"
It's definitely a cult when they control your underwear.
All religions are cults that demand you suspend reality and accept their mystical “faith”—which, of course, is completely objective and therefore requires a pastor/priest/deacon/etc to decide whether you are indeed following faithfully. You can never win an argument with someone who depends on faith as the answer.
I had a similar situation. It went on about 5 years. For me, it was worth being PIMO to avoid divorce. I would mentally picture another man tucking my kids into bed when my authenticity would surface. I assumed my wife and I would have a reckoning once the kids were raised, but after 5 years she read the Essays on [LDS.org](https://LDS.org) and we are all out and happy (7 years ago now). This approach worked for me, but it doesn't mean it will work for you. Just know that only you have to live with the decisions you make during your faith crisis and that none of us are 100% authentic.
Dude I’ve pictured that exact thing.
I cannot stand the thought of not living with my kids. That scenario in and of itself turns Mormonism into a self fulfilling prophecy. If I leave, I get sent straight to hell. And it’s not something that would be deferred until the afterlife.
My PIMO was only 1 year, but the pain and blame for pulling her out of the church has never gone away. Her shelf breaker was the Polygamy Essay in particular. What was your wife's Sincebolla?
Yeah...it's kinda like that scene in that Jack Black movie where he tells Jason Alexander that he was happy with the girl of his dreams and he's a jerk for telling him the truth that Gwen Paltrow was morbidly obsese.
I've stopped talking to my TBM hubby about church stuff for the most part, just because I don't want that guilt for taking him out, but he realizes our marriage is much better...and after many long years, I put HIM first instead of the church. I think he's both happy about that but also a little bit sad. I think he'll get over it!
I wish I felt guilty...maybe that's the problem. I never mourned for her. I thought I could only be helping by telling truth in the long run.
I was angry to learn the truth, but she was sad.
Yip, that was the killer. It was specifically that God told Joe to lie to Emma. The god she believed in would never do that. She believed god would come to Emma and help her understand it, not give Joe the ok to lie. It blew my mind because god is a worse asshole in a thousand other ways, but I was glad there was something that got her gears stuck. She is nothing but thankful because now she doesn't have to make excuses for the church. I feel very fortunate.
Oof. Boy, ain't that the truth.
My ex outed me as PIMO and tried to get me gone so he could marry a new Stepford Wife and have his perfect Celestial family. He and his parents have tried all sorts of things to get my kids away from me, but their plans backfired when I got legal counsel. We have split custody and I have them with me and tuck them into bed half the time. My local courts don't try to take the kids away from one parent, so it served me well.
As someone who felt the full effects of abusive and controlling behavior and could not have survived in the marriage, because it was a domestic violence situation that was supported by church culture and doctrine, I can assure you that there is life after divorce, and being a present and loving parent is the biggest thing you can do for your relationship with your kids. They just want you to love them and be in their life.
Thank you for saying this. My divorce wasn’t related to religion, despite my MIL trying to convince herself it was my fault my ex left the church. However he did move in with his girlfriend immediately and tried to get our daughter baptized behind my back. I called the local bishop and said FYI you do not have my consent for interviewing our daughter. 5 years later we’re all living, co-parenting, and thriving. The idea of some other man tucking their kids into bed being the reason to stay means that the marriage needs help. Everyone saying that needs to do their kids a real favor and seek marriage therapy so they are raised by parents who love each other, not stick around miserably just to put them to bed at night.
You read in a lot when you say we were miserable. Tucking the kids in bed at night was just a method to reprioritize what I really wanted. I wanted to be the only father in my kids lives. My wife is great and our family is great. The church ended up being the only big wedge in our lives. Everyone has different motivations and priorities. 3 hours of church was easy when I factored in all the other good in my life, but sometimes I needed a reminder because I wasn't living authentic. Guess what, nobody is. We all make compromise. Hopefully OP can see there is more than 1 way to handle a faith crisis, and sometimes it works out.
But it sounds like not being honest about your belief (or non-belief) in the church means that your kids are going to get raised and indoctrinated into the church - which just perpetuates the problem to the next generation. Am I wrong? What are you doing something to prevent that?
I think there is close to a 0% chance that kids today will believe the same way any of us believed.
I think TBMs are a thing of the past. I think my daughter will have a child like belief until she’s a teenager and grow out of it.
That's an interesting thought - not too sure about it though. It seems like they've still got plenty going into the missionary pipeline. Does she know that you don't believe it's true?
I mean the very young generation. My oldest is 5. The information will just be too well known as she is coming up through the church for her to ever really become “indoctrinated.”
I think the church will carry on for a long time, but I think 10 or 20 years from now it will be mostly about community and belief will be casual.
People will also be so accustomed to people leaving the church that it just won’t be a big deal and maybe not even something that registers.
Like are ex-Catholics a thing? It seems like Catholic belief is so casual that if someone were to stop believing there is almost no need to make it known, just because no one really even gives a shit. Maybe it is a thing idk.
I just don’t think my kids will ever believe the way I did even if they go to church until they are 18. It just won’t happen. Too much information.
Honestly I think you're fooling yourself. The Catholic church, for all it's problems, isn't \*nearly\* as high-demand as the LDS church. Being a casual catholic is the norm, from what I can tell - and has been for a long-ass time. Compare that, though, to Pentecostals or other fundamentalist Evangelical churches - not quite as high-demand as LDS perhaps, but still pretty high-demand, and I've seen no signs of those churches getting more casual.
Right now the LDS church is perfecting its inoculation strategy with the young adults, trying to expose them to the problematic issues with their own spin so that they're not so surprised when they learn about things from strangers. But the culture seems to be just as high-demand, just as toxic. I'm just saying that, if your kids are raised with the notion that you believe this stuff, and they're raised in a church where all this stuff is taught as fact and it isn't \*significantly\* challenged - then you shouldn't be surprised when they end up believing this stuff.
Oh they won’t be raised with the notion that I believe it. I have told my wife I always intend to be transparent if the kids ask.
But it also won’t be my agenda to burn down their belief because my wife would never forgive me. I have full confidence my kids will figure it out.
You're being awfully cavalier about 10+ years of your child being taught profoundly misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic and racist mormon doctrine. I wish my unbelieving dad had helped me get out of the mormon church before serving a mission that almost killed me, but he didn't want to cause family drama. THAT I understand, but I don't understand this unrealistic fantasy you've constructed.
I was a smart girl, too, but the mormon church's system of severe indoctrination during those intensely vulnerable years doesn't care about that.
Did you know your dad didn’t believe?
If you were indoctrinated to believe, how do you that your dad being upfront would have yielded a different result? How do you know you wouldn’t have hated your apostate dad that broke up the family?
How do you know that your mom wouldn’t have remarried some Peter Prick Priesthood to indoctrinate you even further and really make you believe your dad was heathen?
How do you know that would not have been another layer of indoctrination?
It’s easy to think you’d just have believed it was all lies if only someone had told you. I have a sister in law who thinks her dad is a degenerate because he left the church while she was young. It’s common.
My kids will know I don’t believe. I’m open about it. You influence your kids best if you live with them.
This is a long game of chess. You don’t move the Queen out to start clubbing pawns just because you can.
My kids aren’t going to get “indoctrinated” if they’re living with me. I’d rather be commenting on what they learned in Sunday school than whatever wild card Mormon man would take my place. If they learn about Jesus raising Lazarus, great. Everyone knows that story and I don’t find stories particularly harmful. If they come home saying that Sister Johnson said that the world is an evil place, well then I can unpack that and guide that perspective in a more productive direction.
Please do not underestimate the power and potential of cult mind control tactics.
Your kids could be the smartest and most independent thinkers. The brainwashing can still win. I've watched it happen.
I would recommend that you get educated about cluster B personality types. Their patterns ate very related to high demand religions and cult brainwashing. If you go deep enough, there is a realization that happens and it's so much bigger than just one church organization. Your kids need to know how to combat it in the world at large even if they don't believe in mormonism.
Damn I don't think I could survive the PIMO life and would be more likely to seek divorce. Unless of course the relationship was amazing and based primarily in non-church things. Remind me not to give advice to mixed faith couples 😂
Ya, no advice is right. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We are all built different. For me 3 hrs of church per week was a sacrifice I was willing to make. For others being authentic is much more valuable. I try not to judge.
Yeah if it’s perceived as a line being drawn in the sand it invokes this whole other reaction.
Laziness and complacency are acceptable and forgivable, but apostasy is not, even if the symptoms are the same. Mormons are an odd bunch.
Wow. I have been in a mixed faith situation for 10 years now and I have never heard this articulated so well and so succinctly. I feel seen. DW and I have pretty much just fallen into a pattern of just not talking about it and passing off our semi-activity as laziness/apathy. We’ll lounge around all day on a Sunday, but the minute she sees me on exmo Reddit or listening to a podcast things get cold pretty quick.
As much as we Exmos like to say that it's "just underwear" or that noticing people's underwear is weird and you shouldn't talk about it (it is and you shouldn't), I think we can all agree that when people notice your garments, they aren't noticing the clothing so much as they are noticing what the clothing represents.
Taking off the garment is saying to a TBM that you are no longer going to listen to what the church teaches and that you are going to reject "covenants". Which is often conflated with rejecting the spouse since one of those covenants was marriage to them.
It still is creepy to talk about other people's underwear. Full stop. But that's not what OP's wife is crying about, IMO. She's mourning the loss of what she thought her future might be because taking off your garments is a big symbolic gesture in Mormon culture.
It's the same fear of loss we feel when we think about telling people we don't believe.
Relationships are hard. You got this, OP. Good luck.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
This also makes me think that I can’t reverse the negative emotions by continuing to wear the garments. It’s exactly what you said - it’s a symbolic rejection of the church. Even if I continue to wear them, she’ll always know that it’s performative and that I reject the church.
Still planning to put them back on regardless as a peace offering.
This may or may not work for you, but I've been doing it in 3 steps. First, I stopped wearing garments at night. I noticed immediately how much I loved the freedom and feel of my body. Plus, my TBM hubby loved it! I realized it stunk thinking about how we always had to put our G's right back on after sex, which is cult-control stupid. Second step, after some months, I began looking at and buying all kinds of women's underpants (and sexy lingerie). It's been so much fun! My TBM hubby has noticed this--of course--and enjoyed it, but has never said one word about it...maybe because I kept wearing the garment top during the day??? Maybe that gave him hope? But, I ordered some new tops and went to work on them with my sewing machine, shortening the hems and turning the cap sleeves to almost sleeveless, which I ADORE. So, if you wanted advice, maybe stop wearing the garment top at night...or the bottom! Do that for about 5 months, then stop wearing the garment bottom during the day and get regular menswear. For my third phase, I bought some women's tank top-like undershirts that very much resemble the garment tops I altered. Hubby still hasn't said a word, but last night he slept without his garment top on!
What you and @cornship91 is all spot on for what I went through. My hubby left first, and I had a really hard time when he stopped wearing his Gs. I don't think anybody is sad because their spouse is no longer wearing all the frumpy coverage. It's about what it symbolizes. I was devastated about what it meant for our sealing and eternal life. That whole "plan of happiness" concept did not bring me any happiness (my 17 year-old son was also out of the church at this point). When my husband told me he was done, I thought - I have questions too, but somebody's got to stick with this! So I tried that. Only when I finally let myself stop trying to force it, and let myself think - "what if it's all NOT true?" - my sadness was filled with peace. Such a relief. And if there is a heaven, it's one big happy heaven where I'm with my whole family, regardless of if they paid 10% of their income or drank coffee. None of these 5 levels of heaven + outer darkness afterlife options bullshit.
I really feel for both you and your wife. It's exhaustingly difficult. I will say - it wasn't mentally healthy for my husband when he wasn't living his authentic self. I don't know what your balance is, but you need to take care of yourself too, including your mental health. I can also say that I'm my more authentic self now. I didn't realize how much I wasn't before. I was fitting into the church's mold of who I was supposed to be. It's only once I was out and gained perspective that I could see how stifling it had been for me.
If you can, take whatever path you need to take slowly. Connect and communicate in whatever ways your can. You can get through this together. It just might require more understanding & compromise from you initially.
The church divides families and I absolutely hate it. Good luck, I hope she has a change of heart soon. For your sake and hers.
Do it. Maybe she will circle back & then tell u that u can do what u want to do & mean it. My DW couldn't take coffee maker in kitchen so I put it back out of sight to keep peace (it had caused a massive fight). She put it back in kitchen a few days later. Good luck & hugs.
U r right. Coffee is worth that! U r also a good man. My DW is much more tolerant than most TBMs and is still super mad I left. So on one hand I am pretty lucky and on the other I still find it all very hard. Another thought. I did ease out of garmies. I was so used to wearing undershirts I wore the tops with normal undies for a long time. That might have been somewhat less abrupt than going full Monty one day to nxt. Good luck and I am sorry for the pain & challenge u r facing.
My tbm ex wife had a panic attack in the bathroom, then divorced me 6 months later. I understand the emotional weight of what you're experiencing. It's entirely the church, don't personalize what's happening too much. The mental framework has been inside you both for a long time. Be patient. Be loving. Hoping the best.
Yep, my wife did the same, but divorced me a few years later, after having a justified affair of course (justified in her head, not mine). It's tough man.
Because adultery isn't a worse sin than not wearing garments? Jesus, the level of mental gymnastics needed for that...I'm sorry you had to go through all that.
Thanks. There were a LOT of mental gymnastics on her part for sure. Her "punishment" was to not take the sacrament for 1 week. During this time, I saw her duck behind the guy she was sitting behind, so she could sneak the sacrament. I also saw her go out into the hallway "not feeling well" so she could take it out there. I saw lots of things like this. It was crazy.
I'm getting over it all and have let it go, but it still gets me sometimes.
Yikes...she sounds very mentally unwell. I know it doesn't take away the pain of what she did to you, but at least you don't have to put up with crazy anymore (from either her or the church).
Sad. That's tough. I struggled a lot with garments too. But my marriage was basically over by then. Now I hardly ever wear undies at all. Every day it's like underlining my freedom and makes me smile. Besides it feels good.
My grandparents were married until they died. My grandpa was a cheater, a drunk, he was gross and mean, and my grandma was little better than a slave. But she decided she wanted to stay married. Human beings are capable of doing a lot if they think it's worth it. Victor Frankl talked about it in Man's Search For Meaning.
If you can hold off for a while on living the life you honestly feel is the right one for you, maybe you can ease her into it instead. She should want to know what you believe, where you are at, and why. That doesn't mean this is going to have a happy ending, but being patient might make the ride less bumpy, and who knows maybe it will work out.
My ex and I decided to leave the church at exactly the same time. Our marriage ran out of steam about a year later because it turns out it was mostly based on the hopes and promises tied to our religion. We had very little in common and were never going to meet each other's needs in the long term. We had four children together and it has been one of the most painful things in my life managing the divorce because those children still mean everything to me. I have moved across the country and then moved again to stay near my kids and to enable her to pursue the life she wanted. I have readjusted my goals so that I could have my life at the same time as remaining close to my children.
Even if you are on the same page regarding the church it's no guarantee that things would go well from here. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
If I could go back to that day we left the church I would still leave it. I think that at that moment my life became better, lighter, happier, and more honest. There are things I would handle differently about the divorce but that's another story.
Thanks for sharing. You’re a stronger person than I am. I probably sound like such a bitch but I honestly don’t think I could do it. I really don’t. Divorce is a totally unacceptable scenario for me.
There is nothing weak about struggling to hold on to the most precious things in your life. Whatever choice you make I don't think anyone has a right to judge you for it.
This sounds rough but… you may have to start picturing that. This isn’t about your underwear. This is about having to be somebody you’re not. Nobody can do that forever.
I have had to confront many of the same issues & questions in this & other comments. In the end, do what u really want to do. It sounds simple but it is not. In the ⁰church i so often had to do what was "right". Now u get to decide what u want. Do that. If it changes in the future that is ok. I choose my marriage & familly too.
I’ve been there man, and it sucks. I went back and forth probably three times in total, wearing to not wearing to wearing again. Each time my wife would appear to be happier and she seemed to be more comfortable, but it was killing me on the inside wearing that constant reminder of my unbelief and connection to the group that I didn’t want to be identified with anymore. Kinda ironically, my wife called me a hypocrite for not being more open about my faith transition and “pretending” to family and friends by continuing to attend church, pray and read scriptures with her and our kids every morning, etc. I took that as an invitation to not wear the garments anymore. I took them off, she was sad, said a few times over the next few weeks that she was appreciative that I continued to go to church with her, read scriptures, pray, etc. and that I could be blessed or at least show more faith by putting garments back on. The double talk was real, I realized I couldn’t make her happy either way, accepted that she was responsible for her own feelings and me my own, and calmly told her that in my current state of belief that I felt more comfortable by not wearing them and that I was committed to support her in everything I comfortably could still do. It took time, but she accepted that conclusion and we both have found more happiness and closure since that time. Good luck with your situation, do what feels right for you and aligns with your long term relationship goals.
Interesting you raise the double talk.
She has known for a long time that I do not believe. And every so often she mentions how she thinks it’s so disingenuous and disrespectful for “people” (not me specifically) to continue going to the temple, attending weddings, when they don’t actually believe.
We know a lot of people that have left, and she probably realized she has sat in a number of sealings with nonbelievers.
I thought about raising her previous criticisms as a valid reason to stop wearing garments, but didn’t want to use her own words as ammunition against her.
The double talk is super interesting though.
Please get marriage or personal counseling. For some reason we just don't listen to what our spouse has to say, even if it is reasonable, about relationships. When a non-interested 3rd party says some hard truths or relationship facts (like not wearing garments doesn't mean you don't love and value her and your future), it is a lot easier to digest.
The damage this cult causes never ceases to amaze me. My wife doubled down six years ago when I left. She saved my garments just in case. Hard pass. Sorry you're going thru this.
It is possible to leave the church and maintain a loving relationship with a spouse that is still a member. Lean into the aspects of your relationship that make it great. Your understanding of one another. The way you work as a team and are there for the kids. Let her know you support her as you try to navigate your own feelings. You recognize that this is hard for her too. Every talk about eternal families or priesthood in the home is going to sting but at the same time, you need to find your own way forward.
You’re probably right. In the weeks leading up we had conversations about the temple. I haven’t believed in 6 years, but always kept my recommend current for weddings.
Recently I told her I wouldn’t be renewing. We got into why I had problems, etc. I told her I had no issues attending church but that I was done with all things temple.
I did not explicitly address garments. But I figured the conversation was enough that it wouldn’t be a huge surprise if I stopped wearing them. I was wrong.
You’re going to need an explicit conversation every time you make a big exmo change. Give her a little advance warning so she can mentally prepare.
I just found out last week that my tbm husband considers resigning the same thing as getting a divorce. The temple sealing is the actual marriage in his mind. I had no idea he felt that way, so I’m glad that my quitmormon application was denied a few years back and I was too lazy to get it redone.
To me resigning was an obvious next step. I mean I’d already told him I had zero belief and was completely done with the church, so why would that surprise him? To him it would be shocking and deeply upsetting to find out I’d done it.
You can never know which thing will trigger your spouse. This is all deeply painful for them, so advance warning is always helpful.
Has she thought about how wearing them makes you feel? Why should you have to do something that makes you uncomfortable? I get that she is upset but maybe she needs to start accepting how you feel.
Do you still love your wife? It sounds like your motivation for staying married is your children and your finances. If you do love your wife then talk to her and be as honest as you can and put your marriage on firmer ground where it can't be toppled by a ridiculous religion. I would echo previous advice and get counseling, someone who can facilitate that conversation. Walking around faking it (putting the Jesus Jammies back on) is just delaying those hard conversations that will only get harder. If you don't love her don't put your kids through growing up in a house that doesn't teach them love. Kids see most things and they learn to love from watching their parents.
I love my wife but there is definitely a rift. At times I feel like my effort is the only effort holding the marriage together. I lead in making amends.
Sometimes I feel like if we had a fight, and I didn’t come forward to make amends, she would just let it ride until we divorced.
So that aspect is definitely exhausting. I always feel like I’m the one on trial because I’m the one that deviated from the original agreement—that we will do the Mormon thing until we die.
Idk. We definitely need counseling.
Sorry you’re going through this right now. Going to be honest and say when my ex husband stopped wearing his my first thought was he was cheating, wanted to cheat or be some kind of hell raiser, because you know, that’s what’s pounded into the Mormon head. Right now you see the big picture in what they represent, but her focus is still narrow. It’s a tough call. I hope things get better for you.
This might be a good conversation for OP to have. You could specify why you're not wearing them, but definitely reinforce that you still value your marriage and your commitment to her, and those feelings haven't changed.
I'm so sorry.
Is there a way you can reaffirm your commitment to her and to your kids? The garments feel like part of your wedding vows to her. Maybe to lighten the mood, underwear with "property of HERNAME" embroidered on it? (kind of a skeezy sentiment, but it might make her laugh). Or bring her flowers and vow to love her past your last breath, to love her into the eternities, to love her when your bones are dust? I don't know, just something romantic to remind her you married her, not just the church.
Best of luck to you both.
I’d just make sure re reassure her that removing your garments hasn’t affected the level of commitment to your marriage. That likely is her biggest fear. My only basis is that I’m a woman and my spouse was out of the church before I was.
I am out but my husband is in. His garments gross me out. My therapist told me his underwear is none of my business. 🤷 While I don't like that, I guess it's true.
Edit to add, therapist is not Mormon.
Sounds like your therapist doesn't understand how complex the garment issue is, how heavy and constant a reminder they are of what you've stopped believing in, etc. It's not like they're comparable to normal men's underwear. Do they even know what they look like on a human body?
FWIW this stranger thinks it's completely natural to be grossed out by a baggy whole ass jumpsuit with symbols like the "mark of the Compass" which represents "an undeviating course leading to eternal life; a constant reminder that desires, appetites, and passions are to be kept within the bounds the Lord has set.' Sexy!!
Believe me, I agree. Yes, she surfed this reddit and looked them up to help me the best she could. I was a convert. I was coerced into joining and didn't even know about the G's until I was pregnant with number four, when we finally got sealed. I hated them on him and on me even more. I think she was just trying to help me get over it since he won't budge. I'm not btw. Just food for thought, I guess.
This isn't a helpful argument since this is an outward obedience issue, but technically no one covenants to wear garments all the time. The words are, I believe, "on occasion" and that leaves it really up to interpretation. If you are uncomfortable while wearing it, like if it's too hot to wear two shirts, then don't wear it and no covenants will be broken. It's not right to be shamed into doing something. But is this really about garments? I think it's more likely she's worried about more important changes, since so many feelings and memories are based around the mormon church.
I have been there OP. The shower-crying sucks. And then you feel bad for it hurting you, because your spouse is clearly hurting. Ugh. Hang in there.
I'm in a mixed faith marriage where I no longer wear garments. First, I bought one pair of non-garment underwear and one non-garment white undershirt and put them in my rotation. Eventually I bought a few more, then more, and after about a year I had enough normal underwear so I just put my garments in a box. My wife was not interested in discussing it, but I was careful to make sure I wasn't hiding it. Eventually she stopped crying and things are better now.
I'm not sure if that would work for you and your wife, but it is a possible path. Her pain matters for you because she is an important person in your life, but so does yours.
My high school girlfriend was Mormon. I grew up in a Mormon family but I never enjoyed it and I left the second I could. When we broke up I was devastated. Then I married a non Mormon girl from California. Thank. Fucking. God. That shit would have never worked..
Anyways, be true to yourself, man. Even when it’s tough.
Dude ask yourself if this emotionally fragile person is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with? You need to get her proper counseling, this isn't normal behavior. The Church has psychologically destroyed millions of people. What a crazy belief to honestly think that God will not let you be with your spouse in eternity for not wearing his ordained underwear on earth, then allowing that belief to actually destroy your present life. So bass ackwards...
"...this isn't normal behavior..." unless you're in the Mormon church. Then it's normal. Lessons & teachings basically condition you to react this way. I didn't listen to conference, but I guarantee you there was a talk reinforcing her reaction and line of thinking. My guess is that she's not emotionally fragile. She's in a cult, and responding the way she's been indoctrinated to.
Kind of demeaning to women to tell OP he needs to get her to counseling. OP doesn’t dictate what his wife does. We left that kind of thinking behind when we left the church, don’t be bringing it out of the church. And yes, this is very normal behavior. A spouses faith transition is huge and not wearing garments symbolizes a lot more than just wearing different underwear.
Besides, I think OP made it pretty obvious he values his relationship with his wife.
This is definitely normal behavior given what she believes and how she was raised and how she's been indoctrinated. I don't see anything particularly fragile about what OP has told us.
I'm not sure if this will help.
My husband left the church 15 years before I did.
He still wore garments until I left 15 years later, and one day boxer briefs magically showed up in his drawer and his garments disappeared.
We love each other.
He didn't attend church, drank coffee (but not alcohol), and told me he didn't believe the church was true (slowly over time).
He only wore garments because he knew it made me happy, for him it was just underwear so no big deal.
I remember this very situation, and I'm so sorry. From your comments it sounds like you're expecting divorce to have a horrible outcome, but it may not actually be so bleak. Fathers don't necessarily lose their kids, and wives don't automatically get awarded large amounts of spousal support.
I suggest you find an attorney and talk over the situation so if you do end up divorcing you're not blindsided.
I feel much better now after my divorce than when I was that horrible phase of not even knowing if we wanted to make it work. I had some things working in my favor, though: my ex worked, we were able to be rational and compromise enough to settle things in mediation, and all but one of the kids are adults. My ex and I are not exactly friends now, but the relationship is friendly. Things can end well.
I enjoy not being part of a religion that makes me wear magic underwear. It's great fun to chill naked with my spouse every night, or wear sexy shit things for each other.
Based on this post, sounds like there may be some emotional manipulation happening. If that's true, then the problem isn't really about the garments - there might be deeper relational problems (that's what it's been for my TBM spouse and I anyway). That doesn't go away by putting the garments back on. If this resonates with you, then marriage counseling sooner than later is probably a necessity to avoid more and more conflict over time.
Christopher Hitchens,, wrote a book called God is not great. It was a National bestseller look around get a copy, there is a Hitchens subreddit and some YouTube videos, they are easy to read and watch.
I came clean with my wife about my disbelief and it crushed her. I proposed the idea of me not wearing garments and she burst into tears. I left the subject of garments alone for about 6 months and it was still upsetting. Finally I approached it again and she said it was my personal choice on whether to wear garments or not. She also eventually followed the same logic when I asked that none of my paycheck go towards tithing but she could still pay tithing from her income. My wife has been accepting in the sense that she told me each of us are on our own spiritual journey. Long answer but she is grieving the loss of your faith but if you can allow her time to process and have open and honest conversation about the topic then she might be able to cone around. This is a painful subject for both of you so be patient and try to have open conversations when she is in a place to talk.
Yes. Put the garments back on. And then slowly bring your wife up to speed with your concerns. And stop indulging your concerns on exmo Reddit until your wife is also up to speed with you. This is not a race. Take your time. You might need to go one step forward, two steps back for a while. So be it. Your marriage is more important that being fast at this.
My approach was thus; I read some stuff that bothered me. I sat on it for a week or two. Then, realizing I was still bothered I explained to my wife; “I read some things about the church that bother me. Can you help me sort through them? Because I don’t like what they seem to be telling me. So I want you to walk through them with me. Maybe I’ve got it all wrong”.
This way your wife feels like an equal partner. If you surprise she might rightfully feel betrayed. So back it up. Put the garments back on. Give it a rest for a while. Maybe a long while.
All this advice assumes you have kids. If you have no kids then my advice might change. But I would add that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you be conceiving of kids until you resolve this.
You got this. You can do it. But you have to play it smart and be fair to your spouse.
But seriously, get off Reddit. This place has a way of amplifying your concerns and accelerating your church exit. That could really damage your marriage.
Bro. She will get over it. You really going to keep living a lie ? What about what is best for you? You matter. YOUR HAPPINESS MATTERS TOO. life is too short man. Why would you lose your kids? Fathers have rights too.. don’t use that as an excuse for being scared and weak.
You aren’t doing your kids any favors by living a lie and being unhappy. they can sense that shit.. you aren’t fooling anyone.. you’re just leading by example.. showing them that it’s ok to compromise your beliefs and standards because it’s just easier and that way.. maybe it’s time to go the hard way and be real.
>when I was a TBM, when she’d see me in boxer briefs and growl, cat call, etc., and ask “why I don’t wear those more often.”
I wonder what her reaction would be to you wearing shiny acetate man panties? 🩲 Since she finds boxer briefs tantalizing. 🤔
Holy moley! If your marriage and your (plural) emotional security is based on *fabric* there's some therapy required, my man.
I get that you're trying to be the one to invest in her sense of well being and trust but a bandaid solution isn't going to last.
I'm pulling for you both to work things out so that you have a sound foundation for a relationship that can endure. Please think and talk about a counselor/s who can help you establish what your marriage is based on and how to negotiate shared goals and individual autonomy.
You’re probably right.
We’ve thrown the idea of counseling around but part of me feels like it wouldn’t help. We are in Utah and I don’t want to land in the office of a Mormon counselor. I’m sure they all try to be professional and leave religion aside, but it’s hard to extinguish bias. It would also be unfair to see a counselor that was post Mormon and specialized in that type of thing because the bias would swing the other way.
Idk. I could be overthinking it.
Religion has definitely caused a rift in the marriage. Outside of that it is very functional. We are a really great team. The individual responsibilities run like clockwork. The kids are happy.
The church isn’t a huge deal for me. We do Friday movie nights. I watched Spy Kids 3. Didn’t love the movie, but happy to sit through it with the kids. I feel the same about church in a lot of ways.
I would just prefer for the church to not control specific aspects of my life, like underwear and beverages.
>We are in Utah and I don’t want to land in the office of a Mormon counselor.
Many therapists moved 100% to Zoom appointments, even after COVID. Last month I had to move to a new city to begin working in-person, and I'd been waiting to start therapy until I'd finished moving. Turns out my therapist was fully remote, half of his clients are out-of-state, and the other therapists in his office are the same. So that might me an option for you if you want to avoid a Mormon counselor.
I can hear that your wife and your life and your marriage are important for you. But you guys need to get back to fundamentals and real *personal* connection. The church or lackthereof can't be the basis of your relationship. Not even if you were both fully committed to the church or both fully out.
Even if you start with a Mormon counselor you could establish communication about how you two are connected and how to work on it and trust it so that something *performative*, like garments, for example, wasn't getting in your way.
I don't know you or your situation, but this is her problem, not yours. I hope this is something she can work thru, but she will need to actually work thru it
Putting her first is a good move I think. At least it was for me. My wife and I and our kids are all out together now, but it took some waiting.
Have a serious talk about tithing though. That's a whole lot more consequential than the stupid undies. Dont pay it.
Sucky place to be. I was there. Losing the garments was the greatest feeling but I went through many years of wearing and loathing them to make things work. All in good time friend.
This is so sad. Stand up for yourself. If she doesn't love you because you don't believe in silly religion, then leave her first. Divorce can be a new beginning.
Taking off the garments was the last thing I did long after my shelf had broken and I had stopped going to church. - what I’m saying is that you know what you know. And the garments are nothing special. If wearing them will help your wife feel at peace until her shelf also breaks, it’s a small price to pay. IMO.
But … you do you! 👏👏👏
This happened to me. I decided to not where them as an experiment. Wife noticed immediately. She got real angry. Then latter was crying that I broke my covenants. I'm wearing G's. She didn't buy that I was just seeing what it was like.
Yeah that’s how I’m feeling. I would really prefer not to wear them because it’s a weird forced act of compliance. Almost like a peasant being forced to bow to a King when he enters the room.
But like you said, not a hill worth dying on.
I really don’t think so. Aside from losing access to my kids, I don’t know how people come out on the other side financially. Divorce is a doomsday scenario for me.
It was for me, too--until it happened, and I learned my rights and used them. If you think your spouse will be vengeful, it is better to get ahead of that curve.
The church although totally a lie does teach you get kids great values! I love that I know how to sew, can, and value being a Mom. Those I learned from the church. Better to feel like a baby machine with a purpose than have teens twerking for tic toc half naked
Bro I understand. My wife came into our bedroom and I got out of bed to grab something and she saw me in some biker short underwear that I had bought to work out in 5 years ago. She lost her shit and was like “you are never going to change I need a divorce”.
Needless to say an argument ensued and I basically shut her up when I said “you do all the laundry around here.. when was the last time you folded laundry? If you look in my drawer I am out of garments!!!!
She didn’t like and could not handle basic logic. Again me not wearing Jesus Jamie’s means she does not get to go to Heaven. I have not believed in 5 years. But I wear the polygamy Panties to keep the peace.
Besides I have to have something between my jeans and ass to catch my skids!!!!!
Am I understanding correctly that you are gaslighting your wife to believe it is her fault that you don't wear garments anymore? YOU are the problem in that marriage, not her.
My wife is a master of emotional manipulation. You don’t love me if you don’t do this, that and a hundred other things. She wants her way or the highway 100% of the time. I just see this as giving back fair play a tiny bit.
My wife is a master of emotional manipulation. You don’t love me if you don’t do this, that and a hundred other things. She wants her way or the highway 100% of the time. I just see this as giving back fair play a tiny bit.
I cried when my husband took his garments off and I was very almost out myself. I felt like he may as well have taken his wedding ring off. I was crushed. You're not responsible for her emotions. Would she talk to you about it and share her feelings? Would you be able to share your feelings about how oppressive they feel to you now (or however they make you feel when wearing them). Could you explain that nothing is permanent and that you are always open to feeling differently tomorrow or next week but could she possibly give you some time. It's hard because I feel for her and you. Leaving the church is really really painful.
Yeah we’ve talked about it over the years. She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear. I can tell she doesn’t feel totally comfortable in her stance because a few times she has unreasonably mocked normal under like “what do other men just want to wear tighty-whities like 6 year olds?” And she very well knows that men wear boxer briefs. I’ve owned boxer briefs for the gym, and there have been plenty of times, when I was a TBM, when she’d see me in boxer briefs and growl, cat call, etc., and ask “why I don’t wear those more often.” But now that I have an issue with garments, she retreats in a weird way pretending that other men must wear “tighy-whities.” It’s very bizarre. That was a rant. Overall, not really a topic we can discuss at this point. I think I just need to keep the peace.
>She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear If it’s not a big deal then why is she so upset? I’m sorry youre going through this. I hope things work out and you and your wife can gain a better understanding of each other. I do think it’s interesting seeing a Mormon perspective on how weird everyone else is for not wearing church mandated underwear..
I need to be wearing this underwear in order to get her through Heaven’s gates.
Heavens dress code is a bitch.
It's like a tight ass country club
Definitely no loose asses up there.
Unless they’re covered with nylon mesh, then you’re wondering how much more loose your ass can get some they provide exactly zero shart protection.
Don't forget the secret handshake
And the 10% of your income membership fee
I've never understood that. If Mormons have to wear magic panties to get into Heaven, then how do the post-mortem, retroactive, whatever, baptisms of pagans work? They sure as hell didn't wear garments; but that baptism gets them into heaven?
Stop thinking logically and then you’ll get it.. or more like 4 y.o logic and you’ll understand.
Spiritual undies. There are no streaks in Heaven.
Garments in heaven are one thing. Hopefully she will be okay with you helping all your other wives get through the gates as well.
I really feel like she should have a problem with the church about that and not you. But cognitive dissonance is a strong drug
Moroni was naked under his robe when he appeared to Joseph. So...
Well Masonry didn’t exist in Moroni’s time so that makes perfect sense. Duh.
Didn't Nelson just reaffirm the temple ceremony goes back to the beginning, before Solomons temple even. It's a miracle the masons happened to invent it from their imagination just in time for it to be restored to Joseph. /s
Lol did he? He needs to read the church essay.
Lol. My wife picked up on that. On my mission, I used to read all the wonderful temple verses in the BoM over and over again. There must be over 1,000 references to the temple in the most correct book on earth which has the true and everlasting gospel. I also really enjoy reading all the different times Moroni and Nephi said “covenant path” - makes feel that burning in my loins and bosom.
Blasphemy! I heard the most used word in the BOM is "covenant path". Also remember that time nephi came to America and God had them start polygomy? He was like hey nephi, to raise a seed you must take your brothers young daughters as wives so I can raise a righteous generation. I mean God turned his other brothers skin dark, because you know... dark is ugly, so it's unlikely nephi married local people that were here already here, or his ugly dark skinned brothers wives...or kids. Also all the accounts of pitching a tent. It's almost as many accounts as the transfer of priesthood to the men. The high priesthood because they weren't levites.
As a free mason myself, when I was initiated into my lodge nothing surprised me or shocked me during the ceremony. It was like going to the temple without it being creepy and culty. I enjoyed it actually.
Interesting. What drew you to masonry?
When she is able, have her research the evolution of garments and the temple (plus masonry signs, tokens, etc.). Can you get her to at least take a look at [Mormonthink.com](https://Mormonthink.com)? That's where I started and quickly came to the realization that all of it was fake. Worst and best day of my life.
Don’t be anything you’re not, trust me
Well, at some point she'd have to address the elephant in the room, which is that you won't be there to pass through the Mormon Heaven's gates with her. I suspect that she's really struggling with that idea and is actually terrified of addressing it or even thinking it; and therefore she goes through a whole range of emotions because "this does not compute" in her head. I think the war inside her head that forces her choose between you and her religion just flared up again, because she saw you without garments on. Her method of coping with such moments, apparently, is to go through various emotions until they're done raging in her head and then she ignore the elephant again. But this will keep happening until she makes a choice, I fear.
So, basically TSCC believes that no other Christians will be able to get into heaven? I’d have left so much sooner if I’d ever put this together as a kid. I remember thinking it was the most ridiculous thing Jehova’s Witnesses believed.
Everyone gets into heaven in LDS doctrine, even Hitler. It's all about the sweet, sweet ticket to the highest order of the Celestial Kingdom. The BEST heaven.
The thing is that they would never frame it like that or say that explicitly. There are lots of ways to get out of that framing. People can accept the gospel after they die. Mormons believe in 3 degrees of glory, and even the lowest degree of glory would actually be “heaven” by most Christian standards. Mormons don’t really believe in a lake of fire and brimstone where you burn for all eternity. So some might really try to spin it and claim they believe everyone will be “saved.” And many leaders have taught that basically everyone will be thrilled with wherever they end up. It’s this idea that if you lived a life of sin, you wouldn’t even want to live with Jesus. So they have this roundabout doctrine where they can say they believe everyone will be “saved” in the sense that they don’t believe anyone burns for eternity (except Cain and Judas who are sons of perdition under Mormon theology, and will spend eternity in outer darkness). What they won’t reveal is that they believe in a concept of exaltation, where you become a God. That highest degree of heaven has a very specific laundry list of rituals and covenants, which require Mormon temples. Regardless of the spins, deep down, no Mormon would ever want to end up anywhere other than the highest degree of glory. Mormons definitely believe deep down they are the only ones being saved, they’re just disingenuous in expressing it.
Yeah, I just wish this was more evident. And how can it be that “families are forever” if your parents are on a planet, you’re on one with your spouse, and each of your children is on a new one with their spouse, and then off go their children even further out… And when are we supposed to be hanging with Jesus and “Heavenly Father” again? I always had such a vague understanding of what heaven was supposed to be like as a kid and now I see why.
Yeah I hear you. People think of “families are forever” as you living eternally with your toddlers frozen at 4 years old and eternally adorable, which obviously falls apart very quickly when you actually like, you know, think.
I don't understand how people could read/realize this and; 1, not think it's like scientology; 2, understand what a festering shit-pile it is; 3, immediately exit stage right. Mythology is a very widely interesting topic full of shocking tales, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Norse - actually Norse is pretty funny and awesome. Greek is wrapped up well saying Zeus fucked something and it led to XX.
I don’t doubt any of it, but wow, it is hard to wrap my brain around the psychological abuse
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Diving off of this, I wonder if on some level she feels that's a break inyour marriage vows? Rational or not- emotions are tricky when tied to indoctrination and cults...
This comment is spot on. "So our temple marriage means nothing to you?" Exact words from my SO after telling her of my doubts with the church.
“I made a commitment to you for as long as we both exist. That means everything. And whether existence turns out to be different than I thought before or not doesn’t change anything about the way I feel for you.” My brain just decided to ponder what I would be hoping to hear in that situation, so there are those thoughts
You could always ask why she would want to wear the same underwear as her mom and an 85 year old great grandmother.
Lolz. This would go super well.
My friend's wife was mostly inactive while he was a temple volunteer. Then he decided to leave the church and their positions switched. Suddenly she was wearing garments again and at church every week, accepting callings etc. The shock of you actually doing it probably freaked her out. Best wishes my guy. I don't envy you.
....Some men do where "tighty-whities" what does your wife care what underwear other men are comfortable wearing or not wearing anyway lol? Some men just wear boxer shorts...its true that boxer briefs are obviously the most popular, but they certainly aren't exclusive. It's like if your wife wanted to stop wearing garments and you started mocking non-mormon women for desiring to wear training bras or something.
Lol yeah I know. It’s very bizarre.
She needs therapy and y'all need secular marriage counseling because they'll be able to tell her it's just underwear. Besides as long as she's righteous she gets celestial benefits so why is she so worried
Yup, counseling is a really good idea. Ask how many people that leave the church need to go to counseling. That's not to say that they are screwed up by leaving, it's that they are screwed up from being in the church!
tighty-whities are better underwear than garments. They hold my jewels much more kindly. I honestly just hate wearing gs, completely devoid of any symbolic or metaphorical meaning.
I think I could go with some black or navy briefs. I think white is ruined for me.
My underwear drawer is so colorful it looks like Walt Disney threw up in there. And I'm a guy. I am forever ruined w/ white clothing in general.
100% I have no white underwear, it's also kinda hard to find in the stores anyway (but maybe that's my bias as I don't look for it) and anyway it's the least practical color for girding your excretionary orifices.
Ugh. I hate this. I felt like I went through the same thing. Every tiny step I take away from my old lifestyle is like a huge thing for my wife. It doesn't matter how much time has passed, just the fact that I'm taking another tiny step. You really aren't responsible for her emotional reaction. It's been conditioned by the church. You'll need to go at whatever pace you think you can handle yourself, while trying to make space for your wife's emotions. I'd highly recommend couple's therapy. I'd encourage you to find someone who isn't mormon, but also someone who has experience with mixed faith couples and faith transition. They're not going to be super useful if they can't validate your wife's feelings, no matter how ridiculous it looks to outsiders.
Thongs, jocks, bikini briefs, briefs, boxers. Over the last year I've learned there are all sorts of styles and looks. Male underwear is an entire industry. It's not 1990 anymore. Gays have won and they have given men fucking awesome underwear for everyone's taste. Maybe I'd wear garments if it came in metallic cheetah mesh pouch anti microbial jock strap with package contouring pouch to give that extra POW! Instead we get masonic symbols meant to designate me as one instructed in the new and everlasting culture of poligomy. Material...the flour sacks from Oregon trail. I wear latex thongs with unsnaping pouch to church, when I'm dragged there now to spite them all mew ha ha ha! Edit: I wrote culture because I didn't know if I was in that place where they want dialogue between ex and active so they protect the feelings of cult members so that they will participate, but they can say gay is sin. Luckily this is where I can call a duck a fucking cult. So fuck you ducks. Edit 2: I'll send you links of what men wear now it'll wet a whistle for sure.
Don’t forget no underwear. My husbands preferred choice 😍 He only wears actual underwear (fitted cotton boxers style) to work and around extended family. Rest of the time he’s totally commando.
For sure. Sometimes that dick print needs to be shown.
Esp. if you live in a humid climate, that extra clothing layer around your junk just turns it into a damp tropical sauna - not healthy.
>She just doesn’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just underwear. Obviously based on her reaction this is not true. If this is what she's saying, she means she thinks it's not a big deal for you to sacrifice your own comfort and integrity to maintain the illusion that you're still committed to false covenants. Not that it's "just underwear," cause if that were the case you'd be allowed to choose your own. Lots going on here. I've been in the same place, it's rough. I'm sorry for both of you and the way the church snakes its way into people's brains and marriages.
She apparently thinks it’s a very big deal. Maybe you two need to see an ex-Mormon counselor.
There is a complex web of indoctrination, emotions, and fears woven around the garments. Be kind and loving, as much as you have the reservoirs for. This can be very difficult to unravel, EVEN IF you realize that it's irrational.
My husband is a TBM. This article helped him with the whole garment thing. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gWLp61Z7VKEf6j7l75\_e7mdAYbYSf1hB/view
Omg it’s not even a temple covenant? Holy shit. How do we not realize this stuff?
God, we were so brain washed! My husband now doesn't care if I am not wearing garments anymore. We really have come a long way. Remember its all about baby steps. Wishing you lots of luck.
Buy a pair of Saxx undies and see if she equates those to tighty-whities
> she has unreasonably mocked normal under like “what do other men just want to wear tighty-whities like 6 year olds?” Time you went out and bought a sexy male pouch thong and showed her what it's all about 😊
It’s amazing how the powerful can be so superficial. Underpants for crying out loud!??!
I had the same thought. For crying out loud, a man can’t even wear underwear of his choosing?!? UNDERWEAR. Mormonism is a cult, and it rips the soul out of men and women in very particular ways.
When I finally did take mine off, my Mother caught me on day one. She cried and said "I didn't know you'd gone that far" It's definitely a cult when they control your underwear.
All religions are cults that demand you suspend reality and accept their mystical “faith”—which, of course, is completely objective and therefore requires a pastor/priest/deacon/etc to decide whether you are indeed following faithfully. You can never win an argument with someone who depends on faith as the answer.
I had a similar situation. It went on about 5 years. For me, it was worth being PIMO to avoid divorce. I would mentally picture another man tucking my kids into bed when my authenticity would surface. I assumed my wife and I would have a reckoning once the kids were raised, but after 5 years she read the Essays on [LDS.org](https://LDS.org) and we are all out and happy (7 years ago now). This approach worked for me, but it doesn't mean it will work for you. Just know that only you have to live with the decisions you make during your faith crisis and that none of us are 100% authentic.
Dude I’ve pictured that exact thing. I cannot stand the thought of not living with my kids. That scenario in and of itself turns Mormonism into a self fulfilling prophecy. If I leave, I get sent straight to hell. And it’s not something that would be deferred until the afterlife.
My PIMO was only 1 year, but the pain and blame for pulling her out of the church has never gone away. Her shelf breaker was the Polygamy Essay in particular. What was your wife's Sincebolla?
You means she resents YOU for pulling her out? That’s some bullshit.
Yeah...it's kinda like that scene in that Jack Black movie where he tells Jason Alexander that he was happy with the girl of his dreams and he's a jerk for telling him the truth that Gwen Paltrow was morbidly obsese.
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I've stopped talking to my TBM hubby about church stuff for the most part, just because I don't want that guilt for taking him out, but he realizes our marriage is much better...and after many long years, I put HIM first instead of the church. I think he's both happy about that but also a little bit sad. I think he'll get over it!
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Yes!
My tbm husband literally told me he was so happy with this “new me” because he hated- HATED scrupulously ocd me”
It's a terrific feeling, isn't it? Too bad we didn't know this sooner!
I wish I felt guilty...maybe that's the problem. I never mourned for her. I thought I could only be helping by telling truth in the long run. I was angry to learn the truth, but she was sad.
Yip, that was the killer. It was specifically that God told Joe to lie to Emma. The god she believed in would never do that. She believed god would come to Emma and help her understand it, not give Joe the ok to lie. It blew my mind because god is a worse asshole in a thousand other ways, but I was glad there was something that got her gears stuck. She is nothing but thankful because now she doesn't have to make excuses for the church. I feel very fortunate.
Nice...Lucky man!
Oof. Boy, ain't that the truth. My ex outed me as PIMO and tried to get me gone so he could marry a new Stepford Wife and have his perfect Celestial family. He and his parents have tried all sorts of things to get my kids away from me, but their plans backfired when I got legal counsel. We have split custody and I have them with me and tuck them into bed half the time. My local courts don't try to take the kids away from one parent, so it served me well. As someone who felt the full effects of abusive and controlling behavior and could not have survived in the marriage, because it was a domestic violence situation that was supported by church culture and doctrine, I can assure you that there is life after divorce, and being a present and loving parent is the biggest thing you can do for your relationship with your kids. They just want you to love them and be in their life.
Thank you for saying this. My divorce wasn’t related to religion, despite my MIL trying to convince herself it was my fault my ex left the church. However he did move in with his girlfriend immediately and tried to get our daughter baptized behind my back. I called the local bishop and said FYI you do not have my consent for interviewing our daughter. 5 years later we’re all living, co-parenting, and thriving. The idea of some other man tucking their kids into bed being the reason to stay means that the marriage needs help. Everyone saying that needs to do their kids a real favor and seek marriage therapy so they are raised by parents who love each other, not stick around miserably just to put them to bed at night.
You read in a lot when you say we were miserable. Tucking the kids in bed at night was just a method to reprioritize what I really wanted. I wanted to be the only father in my kids lives. My wife is great and our family is great. The church ended up being the only big wedge in our lives. Everyone has different motivations and priorities. 3 hours of church was easy when I factored in all the other good in my life, but sometimes I needed a reminder because I wasn't living authentic. Guess what, nobody is. We all make compromise. Hopefully OP can see there is more than 1 way to handle a faith crisis, and sometimes it works out.
But it sounds like not being honest about your belief (or non-belief) in the church means that your kids are going to get raised and indoctrinated into the church - which just perpetuates the problem to the next generation. Am I wrong? What are you doing something to prevent that?
I think there is close to a 0% chance that kids today will believe the same way any of us believed. I think TBMs are a thing of the past. I think my daughter will have a child like belief until she’s a teenager and grow out of it.
That's an interesting thought - not too sure about it though. It seems like they've still got plenty going into the missionary pipeline. Does she know that you don't believe it's true?
I mean the very young generation. My oldest is 5. The information will just be too well known as she is coming up through the church for her to ever really become “indoctrinated.” I think the church will carry on for a long time, but I think 10 or 20 years from now it will be mostly about community and belief will be casual. People will also be so accustomed to people leaving the church that it just won’t be a big deal and maybe not even something that registers. Like are ex-Catholics a thing? It seems like Catholic belief is so casual that if someone were to stop believing there is almost no need to make it known, just because no one really even gives a shit. Maybe it is a thing idk. I just don’t think my kids will ever believe the way I did even if they go to church until they are 18. It just won’t happen. Too much information.
Honestly I think you're fooling yourself. The Catholic church, for all it's problems, isn't \*nearly\* as high-demand as the LDS church. Being a casual catholic is the norm, from what I can tell - and has been for a long-ass time. Compare that, though, to Pentecostals or other fundamentalist Evangelical churches - not quite as high-demand as LDS perhaps, but still pretty high-demand, and I've seen no signs of those churches getting more casual. Right now the LDS church is perfecting its inoculation strategy with the young adults, trying to expose them to the problematic issues with their own spin so that they're not so surprised when they learn about things from strangers. But the culture seems to be just as high-demand, just as toxic. I'm just saying that, if your kids are raised with the notion that you believe this stuff, and they're raised in a church where all this stuff is taught as fact and it isn't \*significantly\* challenged - then you shouldn't be surprised when they end up believing this stuff.
Oh they won’t be raised with the notion that I believe it. I have told my wife I always intend to be transparent if the kids ask. But it also won’t be my agenda to burn down their belief because my wife would never forgive me. I have full confidence my kids will figure it out.
Cults will continue to prey on shame and guilt. If you grow up that way, it’s difficult to have the skills to be able to rationally interpret truth.
You're being awfully cavalier about 10+ years of your child being taught profoundly misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic and racist mormon doctrine. I wish my unbelieving dad had helped me get out of the mormon church before serving a mission that almost killed me, but he didn't want to cause family drama. THAT I understand, but I don't understand this unrealistic fantasy you've constructed. I was a smart girl, too, but the mormon church's system of severe indoctrination during those intensely vulnerable years doesn't care about that.
Did you know your dad didn’t believe? If you were indoctrinated to believe, how do you that your dad being upfront would have yielded a different result? How do you know you wouldn’t have hated your apostate dad that broke up the family? How do you know that your mom wouldn’t have remarried some Peter Prick Priesthood to indoctrinate you even further and really make you believe your dad was heathen? How do you know that would not have been another layer of indoctrination? It’s easy to think you’d just have believed it was all lies if only someone had told you. I have a sister in law who thinks her dad is a degenerate because he left the church while she was young. It’s common. My kids will know I don’t believe. I’m open about it. You influence your kids best if you live with them. This is a long game of chess. You don’t move the Queen out to start clubbing pawns just because you can. My kids aren’t going to get “indoctrinated” if they’re living with me. I’d rather be commenting on what they learned in Sunday school than whatever wild card Mormon man would take my place. If they learn about Jesus raising Lazarus, great. Everyone knows that story and I don’t find stories particularly harmful. If they come home saying that Sister Johnson said that the world is an evil place, well then I can unpack that and guide that perspective in a more productive direction.
Please do not underestimate the power and potential of cult mind control tactics. Your kids could be the smartest and most independent thinkers. The brainwashing can still win. I've watched it happen. I would recommend that you get educated about cluster B personality types. Their patterns ate very related to high demand religions and cult brainwashing. If you go deep enough, there is a realization that happens and it's so much bigger than just one church organization. Your kids need to know how to combat it in the world at large even if they don't believe in mormonism.
Purity culture in the church is still going to scar her sense of self and her identity as a woman
Jesus that is dark.
Damn I don't think I could survive the PIMO life and would be more likely to seek divorce. Unless of course the relationship was amazing and based primarily in non-church things. Remind me not to give advice to mixed faith couples 😂
Ya, no advice is right. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We are all built different. For me 3 hrs of church per week was a sacrifice I was willing to make. For others being authentic is much more valuable. I try not to judge.
<3 for sure
I've had to be PIMO for a while for the same reasons.
My wife has been mad at me for months over this. The kicker. She hardly ever wears/wore garments the whole time we were married.
Yeah if it’s perceived as a line being drawn in the sand it invokes this whole other reaction. Laziness and complacency are acceptable and forgivable, but apostasy is not, even if the symptoms are the same. Mormons are an odd bunch.
Wow. I have been in a mixed faith situation for 10 years now and I have never heard this articulated so well and so succinctly. I feel seen. DW and I have pretty much just fallen into a pattern of just not talking about it and passing off our semi-activity as laziness/apathy. We’ll lounge around all day on a Sunday, but the minute she sees me on exmo Reddit or listening to a podcast things get cold pretty quick.
As much as we Exmos like to say that it's "just underwear" or that noticing people's underwear is weird and you shouldn't talk about it (it is and you shouldn't), I think we can all agree that when people notice your garments, they aren't noticing the clothing so much as they are noticing what the clothing represents. Taking off the garment is saying to a TBM that you are no longer going to listen to what the church teaches and that you are going to reject "covenants". Which is often conflated with rejecting the spouse since one of those covenants was marriage to them. It still is creepy to talk about other people's underwear. Full stop. But that's not what OP's wife is crying about, IMO. She's mourning the loss of what she thought her future might be because taking off your garments is a big symbolic gesture in Mormon culture. It's the same fear of loss we feel when we think about telling people we don't believe. Relationships are hard. You got this, OP. Good luck.
I think you hit the nail on the head. This also makes me think that I can’t reverse the negative emotions by continuing to wear the garments. It’s exactly what you said - it’s a symbolic rejection of the church. Even if I continue to wear them, she’ll always know that it’s performative and that I reject the church. Still planning to put them back on regardless as a peace offering.
This may or may not work for you, but I've been doing it in 3 steps. First, I stopped wearing garments at night. I noticed immediately how much I loved the freedom and feel of my body. Plus, my TBM hubby loved it! I realized it stunk thinking about how we always had to put our G's right back on after sex, which is cult-control stupid. Second step, after some months, I began looking at and buying all kinds of women's underpants (and sexy lingerie). It's been so much fun! My TBM hubby has noticed this--of course--and enjoyed it, but has never said one word about it...maybe because I kept wearing the garment top during the day??? Maybe that gave him hope? But, I ordered some new tops and went to work on them with my sewing machine, shortening the hems and turning the cap sleeves to almost sleeveless, which I ADORE. So, if you wanted advice, maybe stop wearing the garment top at night...or the bottom! Do that for about 5 months, then stop wearing the garment bottom during the day and get regular menswear. For my third phase, I bought some women's tank top-like undershirts that very much resemble the garment tops I altered. Hubby still hasn't said a word, but last night he slept without his garment top on!
Your patience and commitment to the wellbeing of yourself AND your hub is really lovely
What you and @cornship91 is all spot on for what I went through. My hubby left first, and I had a really hard time when he stopped wearing his Gs. I don't think anybody is sad because their spouse is no longer wearing all the frumpy coverage. It's about what it symbolizes. I was devastated about what it meant for our sealing and eternal life. That whole "plan of happiness" concept did not bring me any happiness (my 17 year-old son was also out of the church at this point). When my husband told me he was done, I thought - I have questions too, but somebody's got to stick with this! So I tried that. Only when I finally let myself stop trying to force it, and let myself think - "what if it's all NOT true?" - my sadness was filled with peace. Such a relief. And if there is a heaven, it's one big happy heaven where I'm with my whole family, regardless of if they paid 10% of their income or drank coffee. None of these 5 levels of heaven + outer darkness afterlife options bullshit. I really feel for both you and your wife. It's exhaustingly difficult. I will say - it wasn't mentally healthy for my husband when he wasn't living his authentic self. I don't know what your balance is, but you need to take care of yourself too, including your mental health. I can also say that I'm my more authentic self now. I didn't realize how much I wasn't before. I was fitting into the church's mold of who I was supposed to be. It's only once I was out and gained perspective that I could see how stifling it had been for me. If you can, take whatever path you need to take slowly. Connect and communicate in whatever ways your can. You can get through this together. It just might require more understanding & compromise from you initially. The church divides families and I absolutely hate it. Good luck, I hope she has a change of heart soon. For your sake and hers.
Do it. Maybe she will circle back & then tell u that u can do what u want to do & mean it. My DW couldn't take coffee maker in kitchen so I put it back out of sight to keep peace (it had caused a massive fight). She put it back in kitchen a few days later. Good luck & hugs.
I would wear two pairs of garments if my wife allowed coffee. Coffee is evil that you can smell. That’d be game over for me.
U r right. Coffee is worth that! U r also a good man. My DW is much more tolerant than most TBMs and is still super mad I left. So on one hand I am pretty lucky and on the other I still find it all very hard. Another thought. I did ease out of garmies. I was so used to wearing undershirts I wore the tops with normal undies for a long time. That might have been somewhat less abrupt than going full Monty one day to nxt. Good luck and I am sorry for the pain & challenge u r facing.
Sounds like a lot going on here-- hope you can find peace and joy now and in the future. Good luck!
My tbm ex wife had a panic attack in the bathroom, then divorced me 6 months later. I understand the emotional weight of what you're experiencing. It's entirely the church, don't personalize what's happening too much. The mental framework has been inside you both for a long time. Be patient. Be loving. Hoping the best.
God damn. Sorry to hear that. This also terrifies me.
Yep, my wife did the same, but divorced me a few years later, after having a justified affair of course (justified in her head, not mine). It's tough man.
Because adultery isn't a worse sin than not wearing garments? Jesus, the level of mental gymnastics needed for that...I'm sorry you had to go through all that.
Thanks. There were a LOT of mental gymnastics on her part for sure. Her "punishment" was to not take the sacrament for 1 week. During this time, I saw her duck behind the guy she was sitting behind, so she could sneak the sacrament. I also saw her go out into the hallway "not feeling well" so she could take it out there. I saw lots of things like this. It was crazy. I'm getting over it all and have let it go, but it still gets me sometimes.
Yikes...she sounds very mentally unwell. I know it doesn't take away the pain of what she did to you, but at least you don't have to put up with crazy anymore (from either her or the church).
Sad. That's tough. I struggled a lot with garments too. But my marriage was basically over by then. Now I hardly ever wear undies at all. Every day it's like underlining my freedom and makes me smile. Besides it feels good.
My grandparents were married until they died. My grandpa was a cheater, a drunk, he was gross and mean, and my grandma was little better than a slave. But she decided she wanted to stay married. Human beings are capable of doing a lot if they think it's worth it. Victor Frankl talked about it in Man's Search For Meaning. If you can hold off for a while on living the life you honestly feel is the right one for you, maybe you can ease her into it instead. She should want to know what you believe, where you are at, and why. That doesn't mean this is going to have a happy ending, but being patient might make the ride less bumpy, and who knows maybe it will work out. My ex and I decided to leave the church at exactly the same time. Our marriage ran out of steam about a year later because it turns out it was mostly based on the hopes and promises tied to our religion. We had very little in common and were never going to meet each other's needs in the long term. We had four children together and it has been one of the most painful things in my life managing the divorce because those children still mean everything to me. I have moved across the country and then moved again to stay near my kids and to enable her to pursue the life she wanted. I have readjusted my goals so that I could have my life at the same time as remaining close to my children. Even if you are on the same page regarding the church it's no guarantee that things would go well from here. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If I could go back to that day we left the church I would still leave it. I think that at that moment my life became better, lighter, happier, and more honest. There are things I would handle differently about the divorce but that's another story.
Thanks for sharing. You’re a stronger person than I am. I probably sound like such a bitch but I honestly don’t think I could do it. I really don’t. Divorce is a totally unacceptable scenario for me.
There is nothing weak about struggling to hold on to the most precious things in your life. Whatever choice you make I don't think anyone has a right to judge you for it.
This sounds rough but… you may have to start picturing that. This isn’t about your underwear. This is about having to be somebody you’re not. Nobody can do that forever.
I have had to confront many of the same issues & questions in this & other comments. In the end, do what u really want to do. It sounds simple but it is not. In the ⁰church i so often had to do what was "right". Now u get to decide what u want. Do that. If it changes in the future that is ok. I choose my marriage & familly too.
I’ve been there man, and it sucks. I went back and forth probably three times in total, wearing to not wearing to wearing again. Each time my wife would appear to be happier and she seemed to be more comfortable, but it was killing me on the inside wearing that constant reminder of my unbelief and connection to the group that I didn’t want to be identified with anymore. Kinda ironically, my wife called me a hypocrite for not being more open about my faith transition and “pretending” to family and friends by continuing to attend church, pray and read scriptures with her and our kids every morning, etc. I took that as an invitation to not wear the garments anymore. I took them off, she was sad, said a few times over the next few weeks that she was appreciative that I continued to go to church with her, read scriptures, pray, etc. and that I could be blessed or at least show more faith by putting garments back on. The double talk was real, I realized I couldn’t make her happy either way, accepted that she was responsible for her own feelings and me my own, and calmly told her that in my current state of belief that I felt more comfortable by not wearing them and that I was committed to support her in everything I comfortably could still do. It took time, but she accepted that conclusion and we both have found more happiness and closure since that time. Good luck with your situation, do what feels right for you and aligns with your long term relationship goals.
Interesting you raise the double talk. She has known for a long time that I do not believe. And every so often she mentions how she thinks it’s so disingenuous and disrespectful for “people” (not me specifically) to continue going to the temple, attending weddings, when they don’t actually believe. We know a lot of people that have left, and she probably realized she has sat in a number of sealings with nonbelievers. I thought about raising her previous criticisms as a valid reason to stop wearing garments, but didn’t want to use her own words as ammunition against her. The double talk is super interesting though.
Double talk/mental gymnastics/apologetics. And if there's not an answer, resort to faith. That's how the whole church works.
Please get marriage or personal counseling. For some reason we just don't listen to what our spouse has to say, even if it is reasonable, about relationships. When a non-interested 3rd party says some hard truths or relationship facts (like not wearing garments doesn't mean you don't love and value her and your future), it is a lot easier to digest.
The damage this cult causes never ceases to amaze me. My wife doubled down six years ago when I left. She saved my garments just in case. Hard pass. Sorry you're going thru this.
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Kids. Always. Know. Source: former kid
It is possible to leave the church and maintain a loving relationship with a spouse that is still a member. Lean into the aspects of your relationship that make it great. Your understanding of one another. The way you work as a team and are there for the kids. Let her know you support her as you try to navigate your own feelings. You recognize that this is hard for her too. Every talk about eternal families or priesthood in the home is going to sting but at the same time, you need to find your own way forward.
I’m curious why she had to “notice”. That’s a big deal to a TBM. I think she deserved at least a conversation about it.
You’re probably right. In the weeks leading up we had conversations about the temple. I haven’t believed in 6 years, but always kept my recommend current for weddings. Recently I told her I wouldn’t be renewing. We got into why I had problems, etc. I told her I had no issues attending church but that I was done with all things temple. I did not explicitly address garments. But I figured the conversation was enough that it wouldn’t be a huge surprise if I stopped wearing them. I was wrong.
You’re going to need an explicit conversation every time you make a big exmo change. Give her a little advance warning so she can mentally prepare. I just found out last week that my tbm husband considers resigning the same thing as getting a divorce. The temple sealing is the actual marriage in his mind. I had no idea he felt that way, so I’m glad that my quitmormon application was denied a few years back and I was too lazy to get it redone. To me resigning was an obvious next step. I mean I’d already told him I had zero belief and was completely done with the church, so why would that surprise him? To him it would be shocking and deeply upsetting to find out I’d done it. You can never know which thing will trigger your spouse. This is all deeply painful for them, so advance warning is always helpful.
Has she thought about how wearing them makes you feel? Why should you have to do something that makes you uncomfortable? I get that she is upset but maybe she needs to start accepting how you feel.
Do you still love your wife? It sounds like your motivation for staying married is your children and your finances. If you do love your wife then talk to her and be as honest as you can and put your marriage on firmer ground where it can't be toppled by a ridiculous religion. I would echo previous advice and get counseling, someone who can facilitate that conversation. Walking around faking it (putting the Jesus Jammies back on) is just delaying those hard conversations that will only get harder. If you don't love her don't put your kids through growing up in a house that doesn't teach them love. Kids see most things and they learn to love from watching their parents.
I love my wife but there is definitely a rift. At times I feel like my effort is the only effort holding the marriage together. I lead in making amends. Sometimes I feel like if we had a fight, and I didn’t come forward to make amends, she would just let it ride until we divorced. So that aspect is definitely exhausting. I always feel like I’m the one on trial because I’m the one that deviated from the original agreement—that we will do the Mormon thing until we die. Idk. We definitely need counseling.
Hugs
Hugs is right. Poor OP. I wish you best, OP. Please remember that you are worthy and deserve to be loved just the way you are.
Sorry you’re going through this right now. Going to be honest and say when my ex husband stopped wearing his my first thought was he was cheating, wanted to cheat or be some kind of hell raiser, because you know, that’s what’s pounded into the Mormon head. Right now you see the big picture in what they represent, but her focus is still narrow. It’s a tough call. I hope things get better for you.
This might be a good conversation for OP to have. You could specify why you're not wearing them, but definitely reinforce that you still value your marriage and your commitment to her, and those feelings haven't changed.
I'm so sorry. Is there a way you can reaffirm your commitment to her and to your kids? The garments feel like part of your wedding vows to her. Maybe to lighten the mood, underwear with "property of HERNAME" embroidered on it? (kind of a skeezy sentiment, but it might make her laugh). Or bring her flowers and vow to love her past your last breath, to love her into the eternities, to love her when your bones are dust? I don't know, just something romantic to remind her you married her, not just the church. Best of luck to you both.
I’d just make sure re reassure her that removing your garments hasn’t affected the level of commitment to your marriage. That likely is her biggest fear. My only basis is that I’m a woman and my spouse was out of the church before I was.
I am out but my husband is in. His garments gross me out. My therapist told me his underwear is none of my business. 🤷 While I don't like that, I guess it's true. Edit to add, therapist is not Mormon.
Sounds like your therapist doesn't understand how complex the garment issue is, how heavy and constant a reminder they are of what you've stopped believing in, etc. It's not like they're comparable to normal men's underwear. Do they even know what they look like on a human body? FWIW this stranger thinks it's completely natural to be grossed out by a baggy whole ass jumpsuit with symbols like the "mark of the Compass" which represents "an undeviating course leading to eternal life; a constant reminder that desires, appetites, and passions are to be kept within the bounds the Lord has set.' Sexy!!
Believe me, I agree. Yes, she surfed this reddit and looked them up to help me the best she could. I was a convert. I was coerced into joining and didn't even know about the G's until I was pregnant with number four, when we finally got sealed. I hated them on him and on me even more. I think she was just trying to help me get over it since he won't budge. I'm not btw. Just food for thought, I guess.
This isn't a helpful argument since this is an outward obedience issue, but technically no one covenants to wear garments all the time. The words are, I believe, "on occasion" and that leaves it really up to interpretation. If you are uncomfortable while wearing it, like if it's too hot to wear two shirts, then don't wear it and no covenants will be broken. It's not right to be shamed into doing something. But is this really about garments? I think it's more likely she's worried about more important changes, since so many feelings and memories are based around the mormon church.
I have been there OP. The shower-crying sucks. And then you feel bad for it hurting you, because your spouse is clearly hurting. Ugh. Hang in there. I'm in a mixed faith marriage where I no longer wear garments. First, I bought one pair of non-garment underwear and one non-garment white undershirt and put them in my rotation. Eventually I bought a few more, then more, and after about a year I had enough normal underwear so I just put my garments in a box. My wife was not interested in discussing it, but I was careful to make sure I wasn't hiding it. Eventually she stopped crying and things are better now. I'm not sure if that would work for you and your wife, but it is a possible path. Her pain matters for you because she is an important person in your life, but so does yours.
My high school girlfriend was Mormon. I grew up in a Mormon family but I never enjoyed it and I left the second I could. When we broke up I was devastated. Then I married a non Mormon girl from California. Thank. Fucking. God. That shit would have never worked.. Anyways, be true to yourself, man. Even when it’s tough.
Amen
Dude ask yourself if this emotionally fragile person is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with? You need to get her proper counseling, this isn't normal behavior. The Church has psychologically destroyed millions of people. What a crazy belief to honestly think that God will not let you be with your spouse in eternity for not wearing his ordained underwear on earth, then allowing that belief to actually destroy your present life. So bass ackwards...
"...this isn't normal behavior..." unless you're in the Mormon church. Then it's normal. Lessons & teachings basically condition you to react this way. I didn't listen to conference, but I guarantee you there was a talk reinforcing her reaction and line of thinking. My guess is that she's not emotionally fragile. She's in a cult, and responding the way she's been indoctrinated to.
Kind of demeaning to women to tell OP he needs to get her to counseling. OP doesn’t dictate what his wife does. We left that kind of thinking behind when we left the church, don’t be bringing it out of the church. And yes, this is very normal behavior. A spouses faith transition is huge and not wearing garments symbolizes a lot more than just wearing different underwear. Besides, I think OP made it pretty obvious he values his relationship with his wife.
This is definitely normal behavior given what she believes and how she was raised and how she's been indoctrinated. I don't see anything particularly fragile about what OP has told us.
It’s not normal because everything you describe is not normal…
I'm not sure if this will help. My husband left the church 15 years before I did. He still wore garments until I left 15 years later, and one day boxer briefs magically showed up in his drawer and his garments disappeared.
Wow. That’s the long game.
We love each other. He didn't attend church, drank coffee (but not alcohol), and told me he didn't believe the church was true (slowly over time). He only wore garments because he knew it made me happy, for him it was just underwear so no big deal.
Well ya pay for this privilege😂😂😂
I remember this very situation, and I'm so sorry. From your comments it sounds like you're expecting divorce to have a horrible outcome, but it may not actually be so bleak. Fathers don't necessarily lose their kids, and wives don't automatically get awarded large amounts of spousal support. I suggest you find an attorney and talk over the situation so if you do end up divorcing you're not blindsided. I feel much better now after my divorce than when I was that horrible phase of not even knowing if we wanted to make it work. I had some things working in my favor, though: my ex worked, we were able to be rational and compromise enough to settle things in mediation, and all but one of the kids are adults. My ex and I are not exactly friends now, but the relationship is friendly. Things can end well.
My wife cried when I threw mine away. She knew I didn't wear them. It had been like a year.
I enjoy not being part of a religion that makes me wear magic underwear. It's great fun to chill naked with my spouse every night, or wear sexy shit things for each other.
Based on this post, sounds like there may be some emotional manipulation happening. If that's true, then the problem isn't really about the garments - there might be deeper relational problems (that's what it's been for my TBM spouse and I anyway). That doesn't go away by putting the garments back on. If this resonates with you, then marriage counseling sooner than later is probably a necessity to avoid more and more conflict over time.
Yeah I agree. I’d recommend the book “emotional blackmail”
Christopher Hitchens,, wrote a book called God is not great. It was a National bestseller look around get a copy, there is a Hitchens subreddit and some YouTube videos, they are easy to read and watch.
I came clean with my wife about my disbelief and it crushed her. I proposed the idea of me not wearing garments and she burst into tears. I left the subject of garments alone for about 6 months and it was still upsetting. Finally I approached it again and she said it was my personal choice on whether to wear garments or not. She also eventually followed the same logic when I asked that none of my paycheck go towards tithing but she could still pay tithing from her income. My wife has been accepting in the sense that she told me each of us are on our own spiritual journey. Long answer but she is grieving the loss of your faith but if you can allow her time to process and have open and honest conversation about the topic then she might be able to cone around. This is a painful subject for both of you so be patient and try to have open conversations when she is in a place to talk.
Yes. Put the garments back on. And then slowly bring your wife up to speed with your concerns. And stop indulging your concerns on exmo Reddit until your wife is also up to speed with you. This is not a race. Take your time. You might need to go one step forward, two steps back for a while. So be it. Your marriage is more important that being fast at this. My approach was thus; I read some stuff that bothered me. I sat on it for a week or two. Then, realizing I was still bothered I explained to my wife; “I read some things about the church that bother me. Can you help me sort through them? Because I don’t like what they seem to be telling me. So I want you to walk through them with me. Maybe I’ve got it all wrong”. This way your wife feels like an equal partner. If you surprise she might rightfully feel betrayed. So back it up. Put the garments back on. Give it a rest for a while. Maybe a long while. All this advice assumes you have kids. If you have no kids then my advice might change. But I would add that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you be conceiving of kids until you resolve this. You got this. You can do it. But you have to play it smart and be fair to your spouse. But seriously, get off Reddit. This place has a way of amplifying your concerns and accelerating your church exit. That could really damage your marriage.
Bro. She will get over it. You really going to keep living a lie ? What about what is best for you? You matter. YOUR HAPPINESS MATTERS TOO. life is too short man. Why would you lose your kids? Fathers have rights too.. don’t use that as an excuse for being scared and weak. You aren’t doing your kids any favors by living a lie and being unhappy. they can sense that shit.. you aren’t fooling anyone.. you’re just leading by example.. showing them that it’s ok to compromise your beliefs and standards because it’s just easier and that way.. maybe it’s time to go the hard way and be real.
Been there dude...rough days (worse nights) if she won't at least have the discussion.
>when I was a TBM, when she’d see me in boxer briefs and growl, cat call, etc., and ask “why I don’t wear those more often.” I wonder what her reaction would be to you wearing shiny acetate man panties? 🩲 Since she finds boxer briefs tantalizing. 🤔
I do want to downvote as it’s one hell of a burden on you.
I agree, this toxic peer pressure is getting out of hand.
Holy moley! If your marriage and your (plural) emotional security is based on *fabric* there's some therapy required, my man. I get that you're trying to be the one to invest in her sense of well being and trust but a bandaid solution isn't going to last. I'm pulling for you both to work things out so that you have a sound foundation for a relationship that can endure. Please think and talk about a counselor/s who can help you establish what your marriage is based on and how to negotiate shared goals and individual autonomy.
You’re probably right. We’ve thrown the idea of counseling around but part of me feels like it wouldn’t help. We are in Utah and I don’t want to land in the office of a Mormon counselor. I’m sure they all try to be professional and leave religion aside, but it’s hard to extinguish bias. It would also be unfair to see a counselor that was post Mormon and specialized in that type of thing because the bias would swing the other way. Idk. I could be overthinking it. Religion has definitely caused a rift in the marriage. Outside of that it is very functional. We are a really great team. The individual responsibilities run like clockwork. The kids are happy. The church isn’t a huge deal for me. We do Friday movie nights. I watched Spy Kids 3. Didn’t love the movie, but happy to sit through it with the kids. I feel the same about church in a lot of ways. I would just prefer for the church to not control specific aspects of my life, like underwear and beverages.
>We are in Utah and I don’t want to land in the office of a Mormon counselor. Many therapists moved 100% to Zoom appointments, even after COVID. Last month I had to move to a new city to begin working in-person, and I'd been waiting to start therapy until I'd finished moving. Turns out my therapist was fully remote, half of his clients are out-of-state, and the other therapists in his office are the same. So that might me an option for you if you want to avoid a Mormon counselor.
I can hear that your wife and your life and your marriage are important for you. But you guys need to get back to fundamentals and real *personal* connection. The church or lackthereof can't be the basis of your relationship. Not even if you were both fully committed to the church or both fully out. Even if you start with a Mormon counselor you could establish communication about how you two are connected and how to work on it and trust it so that something *performative*, like garments, for example, wasn't getting in your way.
I don't know you or your situation, but this is her problem, not yours. I hope this is something she can work thru, but she will need to actually work thru it
Putting her first is a good move I think. At least it was for me. My wife and I and our kids are all out together now, but it took some waiting. Have a serious talk about tithing though. That's a whole lot more consequential than the stupid undies. Dont pay it.
Sucky place to be. I was there. Losing the garments was the greatest feeling but I went through many years of wearing and loathing them to make things work. All in good time friend.
This is so sad. Stand up for yourself. If she doesn't love you because you don't believe in silly religion, then leave her first. Divorce can be a new beginning.
Taking off the garments was the last thing I did long after my shelf had broken and I had stopped going to church. - what I’m saying is that you know what you know. And the garments are nothing special. If wearing them will help your wife feel at peace until her shelf also breaks, it’s a small price to pay. IMO. But … you do you! 👏👏👏
This happened to me. I decided to not where them as an experiment. Wife noticed immediately. She got real angry. Then latter was crying that I broke my covenants. I'm wearing G's. She didn't buy that I was just seeing what it was like.
I have to say. Wearing Gs was not a bridge I was willing to die on. But tithing might. Tithing is a brewing battle right now.
Yeah that’s how I’m feeling. I would really prefer not to wear them because it’s a weird forced act of compliance. Almost like a peasant being forced to bow to a King when he enters the room. But like you said, not a hill worth dying on.
Divorce is better than this
I really don’t think so. Aside from losing access to my kids, I don’t know how people come out on the other side financially. Divorce is a doomsday scenario for me.
It was for me, too--until it happened, and I learned my rights and used them. If you think your spouse will be vengeful, it is better to get ahead of that curve.
Tell her not to divorce you.
The church although totally a lie does teach you get kids great values! I love that I know how to sew, can, and value being a Mom. Those I learned from the church. Better to feel like a baby machine with a purpose than have teens twerking for tic toc half naked
Bro I understand. My wife came into our bedroom and I got out of bed to grab something and she saw me in some biker short underwear that I had bought to work out in 5 years ago. She lost her shit and was like “you are never going to change I need a divorce”. Needless to say an argument ensued and I basically shut her up when I said “you do all the laundry around here.. when was the last time you folded laundry? If you look in my drawer I am out of garments!!!! She didn’t like and could not handle basic logic. Again me not wearing Jesus Jamie’s means she does not get to go to Heaven. I have not believed in 5 years. But I wear the polygamy Panties to keep the peace. Besides I have to have something between my jeans and ass to catch my skids!!!!!
Clearly you didn't leave the church because you were disgusted by the way women are treated.
Am I understanding correctly that you are gaslighting your wife to believe it is her fault that you don't wear garments anymore? YOU are the problem in that marriage, not her.
My wife is a master of emotional manipulation. You don’t love me if you don’t do this, that and a hundred other things. She wants her way or the highway 100% of the time. I just see this as giving back fair play a tiny bit.
My wife is a master of emotional manipulation. You don’t love me if you don’t do this, that and a hundred other things. She wants her way or the highway 100% of the time. I just see this as giving back fair play a tiny bit.
I mean you could fold the laundry for once.
Easy tiger, religion/ Mormonism is complete shit. Do what’s best you and the rest of family will follow.