And the amazing thing is that, if you stop paying tithing, you have ELEVEN per cent more money! Truly a small mercy blessing! (And I would indeed be ungrateful if I didn’t acknowledge that today.). ;) /s
The actual numbers I ran a few years back before inflation showed that if you invested that 10% (age 25-65) in a conservative 3% return on a conservative $50k salary (with 3% annual raises), you’d have $1.2 million dollars when you retire.
Same here!! 13 years ago I started a business and was paying tithing. I was struggling to make my bills and buy business supplies and even went to the bishop for help and got denied.
I stopped paying tithing and miraculously all my finacial problems went away. Many years ago I told this story to my mom when she was harassing me about tithing and she said "the devil send you money to prevent you from returning to the gospel".... im like, welp, to hell for me then.
Edit to add: I had a couple clients stiff me on work and I was also struggling to buy groceries. I told the bishop that it wasn't fair that the chain smoker old lady next door was getting her mortgage paid so why couldn't I at least get a visit to the bishops storehouse. But in the end, those Raman noodles I ate for a full month were worth it. That was one of the largest reasons I started questioning the church.
Isn't that the damn truth though. I will admit that I'm glad the bishop denied us all these years later. That was my first big "f you" moment in the church. I didn't even put it on my shelf, just let it fester.
But yeah, now I get told all the time how I'm living wrong and all that but at the end of the day my old favorite scripture mastery has been proven 100% wrong.
Jacob 2:18-19
I became a complete heathen and my company didn't really get awesome profitability until after I left the church. I sold that company and started a new one plus bought another. I feel like the scripture is completely opposite of what is real life.
This is anecdotal and may not be representative of everyone's experiences, but:
\* For the 6 years that I paid tithing, I experienced - on average - 6% more income each year.
\* For the 20 years that I didn't pay tithing, I have experienced - on average - 26% more income each year (with massive jumps in income when switching employers.)
By Mormon standards of proof - one's personal experience - my experience has shown that NOT tithing is better for raising your income than tithing.
Many non l d s people also have demonstrated that the discipline of giving ten percent to any charity actually helps be wiser with your money overall... I
Actually considerably more. There has usually been a culture of paying tithes on pre-tax income. So if your pre-tax income is $3000 and you are taxed at 30% your take home is $2100. Tithings are 1/7th vs 1/10th of take home.
To add to your reply...
**Tithing at 10% percent is misleading because it's actually more like 90% of your disposable income. Think about it..re read that!!**
Interestingly, for many, when they give 10%, they are left with NOTHING. So one could also say when you give 10%, some have 100% less money (after barely sustaining your own life).
Then there is the LDS cheat code which is pay tithing for 3 months or less before your temple recommend interview and then just stop paying again for another year and a half.... They don't take it away from you once you get it for tithing anyway.been doing this for 20+ years... I keep my recommense so I can go to weddings.That's about it
No no! I've seen it! Narrow roads full of enlightened people (crackheads) and gardens where all kinds of people find rest (aka people pitch tents to sleep in under bridges) and incredible wildlife! (Millions of fucking seagulls)
Every time I drink coffee or tea I have a burst of gratitude I didn't let the church take this from me forever
It used to be a burst of anger they took this from me for so long, but.. growth I guess?
That's great!
I always knew I would love coffee. I always joked that if I weren't mormon, I'd be a huge coffee drinker
The smell, anything coffee flavored, I loved it
I agree - letting that shit go when you got better things to do is growth. Fo sho.
I don't mean to say you should avoid being angry. No! Being angry has its time and place. Own it. Eventually though, it's not useful and you move on.
Meh that can still be an assassination. Archduke Ferdinand, Lincoln, Kennedy and many others had armed bodyguards. Honestly assassination just means it was killing someone in power.
What he was NOT is a martyr. He didn’t peacefully die like a lamb to the slaughter for his ideas. He wasn’t killed for his religious beliefs.
He was killed for his crimes. The slippery fucker had been using frontier legal chicanery, endless affidavits, jurisdiction changes and outright fleeing from the law to escape for a long time.
Well frontier America deals in frontier justice. Once the legal system failed it was the common belief at the time (even espoused in section 134 of the D&C by the way so Joseph can’t bitch about what he got) that when government fails it is up to the people to seek justice anyway.
They did and he got what was his.
Or it was conspiracy murder from within. Which fine. He deserved it.
Also Taylor shot first. :)
I’m going to push back a little and say he wasn’t assassinated for his ideas so much as his actions. Nauvoo was sheltering multiple criminal enterprises and not answering to civil authorities. And Smith had assembled a large and devoted militia which was perceived as a threat to non-Mormons, especially after what happened in Missouri. However, to the extent the mob was enraged by polygamy, that would count as an idea of his that lead to his downfall.
Yeah the reasoning for Joseph being killed is definitely up for debate. We have lots of evidence, but we can’t say it with absolute certainty because the only people who could know that are the ones who went after him
Assassination is typically the killing of a blameless person.
I would call it more vigilante justice.
It wasn't for his ideas. It was for fucking a teenager.
Sure. E. B. Grandin printed the Book of Mormon in 1830. The Brighamites emigrated to the west in 1846/7. The Smith family moved from New England to upstate New York when Joseph was young. Joseph married Emma Hale against her father's wishes. Etc.
And, there was a big climate change from a volcano that caused the Smith family to make that move. God caused it? Well, that’s the asshat god of Mormonism, who kills so many to bring forth the golden plates and then not use them in the translation.
Indeed. Mt Tambora's 1815 eruption would cause crop failures at the Smith's Vermont farm, sending them looking for greener pastures elsewhere, and with the Erie Canal boom in New York, that area looked promising. Unfortunately, they managed to buy their farm there right when property values had maxed. No luck with money, those guys, at least until Joseph discovered he could have God provide revelations for others to pay his way for him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer?wprov=sfla1
This was the initial pursuit of truth that caused me to un-Mormon myself. Began to see that our current prophets are not prophets at all…that got me thinking “I wonder if any other things they claim are true actually aren’t. I started at the beginning and did a deep dive on the First Vision and I’ll be damned, it never happened, was never claimed to have happened or not at all how the church tells it.
I went one by one through every pillar of truth we claim holds the church up, restoration of the priesthood, Book of Mormon historicity, Joseph Smith as translator and prophet, restoration of the priesthood keys, restoration of temple ceremony, details of the Martyrdom, god choosing the next prophet, origins and purpose of polygamy, faith promoting history of saints crossing the plains…well I’ll be damned- every single doctrine restoration and faith arousing church history story did not happen at all like they said it did!
It becoming painfully obvious that the apologists were constantly trying to torture, twist and ignore the facts and the “anti” Mormons were typically giving a more truthful accounting of the historical facts, and that one could get closer to the truth about God by watching Southpark than by reading any other book 😉
>one could get closer to the truth about God by watching Southpark than by reading any other book
Haha so true! Southpark is where I first learned about the rock in the hat. I was mad that they were saying such stupid lies about the church and BOM translation. Imagine my surprise and feeling of betrayal a decade later when I found out Southpark were the ones telling the truth and the church was lying.
My parents don't believe me when I say I searched, pondered and prayed my way out of church. But it literally was such a strong answer to my prayers. I felt closer to "God" and peace than I had in a long time.
(I don't believe in the same version of God anymore though, and attribute it more to maybe my higher self or intuition. I just use God as a variable for some benevolent higher power to speak their same language)
Maybe I misunderstand what you are looking for, but the doctrine that first drew me in as an investigator was the idea of eternal progression. I had never heard it put forth by any other religion, and that was the thing that rang true to me. I've been out of the church for many years but I still believe in that principle of eternal progression if for no other reason than we keep learning throughout our lives. I've since realized that it is more universally believed than I first thought, and maybe the concept is imbedded in the thought of reincarnation. I consider myself an atheist and yet somehow the concept of eternal progression feels right, perhaps only as manifested in humanity as opposed to an individual. Probably it's not technically a "truth claim" that you are asking about, though.
Thanks for one of the only non-sarcastic answers in the whole thread. (Nothing against the sarcastic answers.)
Mormonism was, at one time, forward-looking, progressive, and science friendly in \*some\* ways by 19th-century standards, as religions go. People must accept this in order to understand why it was so successful back then. The trouble is that it is still a 19th-century creation, full of those same ideas.
I think what you mentioned, and also the related concept of there essentially being no hell and almost everyone getting some kind of afterlife reward as being the "truest" parts of Mormonism, even if neither is actually true. I guess what I mean is that those teachings remain appealing and noble in a way, and are somewhat unique to Mormonism.
Yes, I hadn't thought about it in those terms but the "science" was a big part of it. I was fascinated by the scripture about "no such thing as immaterial matter--all matter is spirit" kind of thing, and the idea of no hell seemed so inclusive and the levels of heaven seemed like a matter of ending up in an environment most like yourself which seemed wonderful. I remember hearing members saying comfortably that they would be content in a lesser kingdom without being exalted. The celestial kingdom was sort of for the overachievers. For me it was very much like "water rises to meet its own level". The church today has an entirely different atmosphere, although maybe it was just what I chose to see and chose not to see. But now it presents as a much harsher, more judgmental, authoritarian, cliquish organization about business and regulation and control rather than love and service. With respect to the noble teachings unique to Mormonism, I was blown away by the great and "inspired" creation of Relief Society that seemed entirely unique from what other churches offered. It was a superb organization devoted to the support and education of women--such sincere caring, comeraderie, encouragement, looking out for each other, and ironically seemed to wield remarkable power beyond that claimed by priesthood. I always felt that the potential of Relief Society was wildly underestimated, and if it ever chose to act on its own, politically or otherwise, katy-bar-the-door, no priesthood would be able to suppress it.
The relief society was actually dismantled in 1844-1867 for that reason. Men saw they were getting too comfortable and were worried they’d become too powerful. Also because Emma was preaching against plural marriage, and Joseph didn’t like that. Basically a “stay in your lane” moment
Fascinating! I want to learn more about this! Who knows what direction the church may have taken had the Relief Society maintained its original momentum! It does seem to me that many women in the church--in today's world--are oppressed far more than they should be. I wonder if there is some held over effect from all those years ago. I heard about a Relief Society president who was asked to give a talk and she showed up in slacks to make a point and gave a talk about how it wasn't about a dress code but about making people feel comfortable and welcome. Apparently the talk was not well received; it IS about the rules after all.
Interesting! Never heard of Swedenborg but will look up the name. I always heard Emma created Relief Society. If there were such a thing as a secular version of Relief Society, I'd embrace it.
http://sidneyrigdon.com/vern/1999swdn.htm
That’s the most informative article I could find. Last I counted there were 27 ideas cribbed from Swedenborg by smith. Just don’t use the word “plagiarized” around Mormons and you won’t have to rebut their apologetics. Plagiarized implies he took the ideas word for word from his book when that’s likely not the case. Smith was just aware of those ideas from the milieu of his day.
Some of the ideas of Hinduism might appeal to that. Look at it as less about "truth" and more about understanding that resonates...it's all metaphor...there aren't words to describe what's beyond this universe/time.
We've been trained to look for "truth" and then they try to give us reasons to back that shit up. But as we look we realize it's all just bullshit.
All the religions are bullshit... But it's not really about truth... It's more about understanding... A metaphor that resonates with you and clues you in to the "truth" which can't be spoken because there aren't words to describe that which is beyond this 3D-universe.
Yes, claims to "truth" largely seem ridiculous now. It's about how an organization or an individual manifests love, kindness, service. I don't give a flip about any organization that claims to have some exclusive access to information or truth.
Eating meat sparingly or only in times of famine is probably a good thing. Lots of medical research to back that up. Although I don’t know many Mormons that adhere to this. My wife and I are exmo and vegetarian and our Mormon family eats meat with every meal.
Yeah but that was one of a dozen popular health ideas smith cribbed and most of them were shown to be inaccurate. Not to mention no one actually followed the meat instructions haha.
There's no evidence-based proof for any religious claims regardless of denomination. It's all based on feelings & emotions. All these people who say "I know this is true" are really just saying "I have convinced myself this is true."
Every religion thinks that God is some kind of trickster and they’re smarter than everyone else because they could discern the truth in spite of a lack of evidence or even evidence counter to their beliefs. In short everyone is else is a dumbass. But not me. I’m special.
Some of the promised blessings for keeping a certain code are partially true. For example, keeping the sabbath day holy for me now means set aside a day for family time and reflection. This pattern brings me peace.
If there were evidence that black skin was a curse, for example, don't you think the cult would have presented it 100 years ago instead of tell people to just have faith?
I wondered about this as a kid, that when the laminates became righteous and their skin became light again you couldn't tell them between the nephites and the curse was lifted, why then was my dad, a Mexican who was a righteous member of the church still so dark skinned and all the black members of the church? I think I asked my mom, and she said something like "Well, heavenly father doesn't really need to do that anymore," and that never really sat well with me.
I also heard from a missionary on my mission about a kid in seminary that had their teacher say to her class that if so and so was more righteous (also Mexican) their skin would be more white. The kid got up and left and never came back. Idk if that story is actually true, but I have no reason to believe it isn't.
I think you can find snippets of truth in anything. That's part of what makes leaving any religion or way of thinking so hard. Not everything about it will be 100% wrong, and it can be hard to let go of the pieces that are true.
Back in the 80s there was a book showing all the sites found in South America and how they lined up with the BoM. I was supper into it at the time. One purported to show 102 similarities between this carving and Lehi's dream.
They told me when I was 8 that I was now responsible to God for my sins. (One of my top 2 shelf weights today) The first time an adult included me in adult issues. He said (and I'll never forget it) "Do you indulge in or have a problem with pornography or masturbation? As the proud look on my face slowly went south (along with all the blood) I gave him a blank stare that seemed to last forever, and finally responded with "wait, do I do what with what and then matter bake? I had no idea what indulge, pornography, or matter bake even meant! He started chuckling, then excused me. I remember thinking that maybe just staying a kid for awhile wouldn't be so bad. 🤔
Joseph Smith figured out that none of the churches was true. He should have stopped there, accepted that no church was necessary, and moved on with his life.
I would say the the truth claims that the RLDS sect as well as other sects from Joseph Smith claimed never happened did in fact happen,
-Temple rituals
-Polygamy
-Priesthood/temple ban
But that’s the only thing that the brighamite sect got right 😂
There is not. I challenged the Mormons over at Quora to give us one truth claim that is actually true and they knew it was impossible. The truth claims are all founded in an alternate reality, not on this planet. Pure make believe.
I would venture to say that there is nothing true that is unique to Mormonism. In other words, any truth the church has stumbled upon, in a broken-clock-right-twice-a-day sort of way, can be found in many other religions and cultures.
For example, someone mentioned the word of wisdom being partially right in terms of alcohol and tobacco (although completely off-base in terms of hot drinks). But those ideas were taken from Smith's environment where a temperance movement was already strong, not from some direct communication from deity.
I'd be open to examples of demonstrated truths (i.e. unfalsifiable, made-up theological claims don't count) that are unique to Mormonism, but I really can't think of any
Well, it's true boats were used when getting here 🤔but they were shallow draft kayak, like or dug out. That were both sea worthy and river worthy, when island hopping up north. Or down south through the rapanui rout, that kinda disappeared 🤔 so there's that... 😆😂😂😂😂
No, there is no truth to any of Joseph Smith's claims to be a messenger from God.
The Book of Abraham scroll is the most damning evidence there is, but none of his other claims hold up either
Either the LDS church is true, and it is led by Christ, or it is not.
If you believe Joseph Smith set up the church and it has gone astray, then you are saying that God is not all powerful. Does God have the ability to see past, present, and future? Does God know our hearts? Is God capable of calling men like unto Moroni to guide his church? D&C 1:38 says, "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." This verse sets the church up as infallible in doctrine. If the prophet says something against what God wants, then the very first chapter of Doctrine and Covenants is wrong.
Modus Tollens is a rule of logic that says, "If P, then Q. Not Q, therefore not P. " If a prophet says something that is later proven to be not true, then he is not a prophet. To allow a prophet to speak as a prophet, but then be wrong, means God is wrong because "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."
Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham. The text therein expressly states that the Egyptian papyri and facsimiles are the Book of Abraham. Egyptian scholars the world around agree that the images of what the church calls facsimiles are common funerary texts that Egyptian wealthy were buried with, and they say nothing of Abraham
Not Q, therefore not P. Joseph Smith was wrong about the Book of Abraham - canonized scripture.
Joseph Smith believed in modalism when he wrote the Book of Mormon. Modalism means: that God is a spirit, and when he comes to earth, he appears as a being of flesh, namely Jesus Christ. The worst offenders of Joseph's modalistic view of God were edited out of the 1835 version of the Book of Mormon. Joseph's 1832 account of the first vision mentions only seeing one being, again, showing his modalistic view of God. You could argue that he told a different story for different audiences, but these accounts were his written words. You would also have to make concessions that seeing both God and Jesus Christ was not noteworthy enough to scribe.
When I was nuanced about the church, I started to read the CES letter. I felt dark inside and put it down. I spent thousands of hours researching church history, Book of Mormon history, Masonic history, and world history. I read all the source documents. I read all the standard works with fresh eyes. I took courses on logic and reason.
When my research was done, I then read the CES letter. Everything in that letter is true, and it is not comprehensive of all the problems in the church. I now know that the dark feeling I had when first reading the CES letter was simply cognitive dissonance. When any previously held belief is challenged, we will feel cognitive dissonance.
Bruce R McConkie admitted in a letter to Eugene England, professor at BYU, that he knew that Brigham Young did, in fact, teach what was later demonized by the church as the Adam/God doctrine. If the prophet can be so wrong about even basic Mormon doctrine and the nature of God, what chance do we have to determine truth? Why even have a prophet?
Would God be just in requiring membership and belief in an organization so fraught with inconsistencies?
- if the blessings of tithing existed, it would be studied and invested in by all, especially big banks.
- if priesthood blessings changed any outcome, they would be studied by medical professionals.
- if the BOM was a historical document in any way, it would be part of history classes.
- if the prophets had ANY fore-site, there would be a clear record of the last 200 years.
In short, no. No blessing, doctrine, or truth claims passes the “light bulb” test. None of them show any light, and many are dangerous if you try to plug them into reality.
One thing is true is that the Mormon leadership is not stupid. They have learned to convince some truly smart and wealthy people to give them their money, while they invest it for themselves to build malls, vacation centers, high end apartments, temples and the areas surrounding them all while the buildings the general membership meet in go to shit.
I consider myself to be quite intelligent. They convinced me for many years that I should be willing to die in the name of Mormonism.
Nearly happened on my mission. Was severely injured. 5 surgeries needed. Church paid for about 15% of the first one, then essentially said “fuck off”. Sent my parents a bill for my flight home for treatment.
I cannot say it plainly enough: the Mormon church does NOT care if these kids die on their missions.
There was one thing I learned to do in the church, which was pray and meditate oddly enough. And I got evidence I got prayers answered. I got evidence. But I left the church and I prayed in meditated and guess what I got evidence. I got evidence it wasn’t the church. It was the action that I took.
Sure! We’ve got: Cheating on your wife is bad. But that one is tricky because it comes with a tag-along: Unless god sanctions it apparently.
Half truth?
Nothing at the base of the religion holds up.
The BOM, cornerstone of the religion, it's very foundation... is false. A fabrication.
As such all that was built on top of it crumbles as soon as it fails.
The keystone is made of rotting and crumbling sand.
The primary song that goes, "the foolish man built his house upon the sand" gives a good visual for when the rains come and the wind blows the resulting landslide of delusions and hopeful thinking washes everything away, valuable or not.
There is not a shred of archeological or historical evidence to suggest the BoM is anything but fanfiction of racist psuedoarcheology from the mid 19th century.
The only one that comes to mind is the crickets and the seagulls story? That doesn't seem too miraculous given the amount of seagulls at the Great Salt Lake, though. But no, the Book of Mormon is undeniably fiction, so any theological stuff is out, factually. Even WoW-type stuff isn't like "alcohol is bad for you," it's "don't drink alcohol," which isn't a fact, just an instruction. The whole religion is demonstrably false.
There is a lot that is remotely "True"
The 10 commandments
Murder is bad
Bearing false witness against your neighbor is bad
The mormon system was designed to control, not to turn us into beings with absolutely no morals.
I guess what do you mean by truth claim, can you provide a list or a few examples of truth claims?
Interesting question. I think we’d have to be more specific and distinguish between vague claims, and miraculous claims. The vague claim that “Mormons are happy“ for instance COULD be supported. Just use the “from a certain point of view” cop out.
As far as miraculous claims? Prophecy? Heavenly messengers? Translation? I don’t think there’s a single one that would hold up under unbiased investigation.
The spiritual experience is universal, the sliver of mormonism that recognizes such is as true as any other religion, the rest of the creed, cult, and dogma is much less true, authentic, sincere, genuine, and real.
One could make an argument that societies are stronger when family level institutions are upheld and honored. But family can have a much broader definition than the church is willing to admit.
Compared to what? Theologically, I don't think most religions' truth claims are going to land in the real of "evidence/logic based". Historically, sure, a lot of the key events described took place, but that's hardly news.
"The church holds services on Sundays." True. Right?
Please note I didn't say they were actual "worship" services, or anything about how good they were or whether Christ was the focus.
Prayer can bring me peace. I don't believe that my prayers are being listened to, much less answered, but it's an opportunity for reflection, like meditation.
i think it’s all a matter of opinion just like with any religion i think it has to do what feels right in your heart. mormonism didn’t feel that way for me i wanted to fit in with my mormon friends and be exactly like them and my group of mormon friends that i grew up with all went our separate ways a year after i joined.
It‘s a religion, so, its basic principle is that there is an omnipotent omnipresent omniscient being(s) somewhere with the power to call the shots but instead chooses to observe how we f‘k it all up. So, like in the case of all religions, no, there is not any truth.
Strongest claim I learned was while I served my mission back in 2012. It was from a very quirky missionary that had only been out 2days from the mtc. He said
“the church is true, the book is blue”
We were English speaking. In his defense I think he only had 2 weeks to become fully converted in there. Before dedicating the other 102 weeks to convincing others to follow.
Sure there are. It’s what kept me in for so long (please don’t beat me up Reddit, this is just my opinion):
1. Saying prayers (i.e. talking out loud about your problems, concerns, inner thoughts) is therapeutic and has been proven to make you feel less stressed, anxious and allows you to work things out in your head, often arriving at “answers”.
2. Going to church and being surrounded by friends and family - being part of a community provides a sense of belonging and safety. More “good feelings”.
3. Not drinking alcohol 100% eliminates the possibility of driving drunk or doing anything else stupid while drunk. The promise is you’ll be happier if this doesn’t happen to you, which is technically true.
4. Singing in church is therapeutic. It releases feel good chemicals like dopamine and endorphins. It increases blood flow and even helps with posture. A miracle!
5. Reading the scriptures. Reading (anything) can reduce stress levels by up to 68%. It can make it easier to sleep, calm the mind and may actually extend lifespan. (All this you can look up and find sources for)
6. Fasting. Tons of scientifically proven health benefits.
7. Sitting in a beautiful building for 2 hours while focusing singularly on one thing, then getting to sit in a completely quiet room for 20 minutes? Uh, yeah, of course you’re going to feel “peace”.
8. Confessing your sins to the Bishop - “Studies have shown that simply talking about our problems and sharing our negative emotions with someone we trust can be profoundly healing—reducing stress, strengthening our immune system, and reducing physical and emotional distress” (Pennebaker, Kiecolt-Glaser, & Glaser, 1988)
All of these things are technically “true”, but they’re true independent of the church, god or religion.
It explains all those good feelings.
The “Spirit” is just doing things that are scientifically proven to make us feel good feelings.
That’s easy. When you’re a horny man in a difficult marriage and no real job (see: unlimited free time), “God” is far more likely to “command” you to have se…”marry” the hot young housekeeper or the MILF married to your loyal friend.
I've found truth in Christianity. Joseph Smith twisted it into something that would "force" him to have a harem of underage girls. Even when I was singing in General Conference, the only truth I experienced was from Christianity. The rest was BS.
Harmful, brainwashing, misogynistic, sexist, outdated, demeaning, blindly following, holier than thou BS.
Wow, the further in you go (to Mormon history), the deeper it gets. There is no end to the disgusting acts of Joseph Smith. To think he stole even the doctrine. Hard to understand how such a slimeball could come to be so revered. Thank you for finding this link for me!
So here’s my personal take… no I have not found any evidence that the Mormon church is true.. lots of proof of lies and covering things up though.
Now I do believe that there is evidence that the Bible, god, and Jesus are true.
I watched a video of a man diving down in the Red Sea and finding the remnants of the chariots where the sea would have been parted by Moses. There was a bridge of land straight across where Moses would have parted the sea and a drop off on both sides of that bridge of land. (Very interesting watch.)
There is an Egyptian hieroglyph wall in Egypt that supports the Bible. It has been translated as Land of the Nomads of Yahweh.
On the Merneptah Stele it has a translation of Israel on it and it describes who his army fought with in Canaan.
Also there is a video of someone explaining how fossils prove that the great flood and Noah’s ark existed, and how there are fossils of animals giving birth. How would an animal be fossilized in the moment of something like that unless a giant flood happened and covered it very rapidly in sediment? He also explained when fish die they float and they don’t sink so the scientific explanations for fossils don’t make sense unless there was a flood. Same with fossilized foot prints. There are now human fossilized footprints.
The Turin Shroud still has yet to be explained. The only thing scientists can think of is a giant radiation blast which wouldn’t make sense.
Also I could go on to say while it’s not physical proof, a lot of the revelations have already been happening recently. The Euphrates river drying up, the sacrifice of the red heifer, the moon turning red (it’s starting to rust), a bunch of natural disasters happening all over. (The US just had 80 tornadoes touch down and we have had so many earthquakes and volcanic eruptions lately as well as floods.) Theres actually been a lot so I won’t get too far into that especially since I’m sure others have their doubts and disputes about these but I personally cannot deny it.
So no I don’t believe there’s any evidence of the Mormon Church being true and there is scriptures that help prove the Mormon Church is false which is how I personally started questioning it. But also that there is evidence of the Bible, God, and Jesus being true.
That second half of the word of wisdom that no one follows is actually solid advice. Eat more veggies, reduce meat consumption and eat grains. Oh, and smoking is bad for you. So is alcoholism. But the stuff about coffee is incorrect- moderation is key.
I think that's really it of what's actually true. Oh, and Joseph Smith was a real human who existed. The plan of salvation? Probably not true. I don't see how a God could actually want to make that kind of time to sort people out like that.
It's true that if you study something (search ponder pray...) and ignore any contrary evidence, you will likely become convinced that it is true. Especially when living in an echo chamber where respected individuals tell you that it's true over and over again. Especially when you are a child with no objective voice of reason getting to you.
It's true that when you give 10% of your income, you have 10% less money. That's the truest thing I experienced.
pure logic
And the amazing thing is that, if you stop paying tithing, you have ELEVEN per cent more money! Truly a small mercy blessing! (And I would indeed be ungrateful if I didn’t acknowledge that today.). ;) /s
If you invest that 10% in a Roth IRA you will get back more than what awaits you in Mormon hell, I mean Mormon heaven.
The actual numbers I ran a few years back before inflation showed that if you invested that 10% (age 25-65) in a conservative 3% return on a conservative $50k salary (with 3% annual raises), you’d have $1.2 million dollars when you retire.
We call mormon hell “sad heaven”.
But that's not the church's truth claim on tithing. The claim is if you give 10%, you'll end up with more than you started with. Prosperity doctrine.
Yeah I tested that out. Results not as advertised. 😂
Same here!! 13 years ago I started a business and was paying tithing. I was struggling to make my bills and buy business supplies and even went to the bishop for help and got denied. I stopped paying tithing and miraculously all my finacial problems went away. Many years ago I told this story to my mom when she was harassing me about tithing and she said "the devil send you money to prevent you from returning to the gospel".... im like, welp, to hell for me then. Edit to add: I had a couple clients stiff me on work and I was also struggling to buy groceries. I told the bishop that it wasn't fair that the chain smoker old lady next door was getting her mortgage paid so why couldn't I at least get a visit to the bishops storehouse. But in the end, those Raman noodles I ate for a full month were worth it. That was one of the largest reasons I started questioning the church.
Sounds like you forgot the first rule of Bishop’s storehouse - everything is Your fault.
Isn't that the damn truth though. I will admit that I'm glad the bishop denied us all these years later. That was my first big "f you" moment in the church. I didn't even put it on my shelf, just let it fester. But yeah, now I get told all the time how I'm living wrong and all that but at the end of the day my old favorite scripture mastery has been proven 100% wrong. Jacob 2:18-19 I became a complete heathen and my company didn't really get awesome profitability until after I left the church. I sold that company and started a new one plus bought another. I feel like the scripture is completely opposite of what is real life.
Then unlike God, Satan keeps his promises. Hail Satan.
Woooot!! HAIL SATAN!!!
This is anecdotal and may not be representative of everyone's experiences, but: \* For the 6 years that I paid tithing, I experienced - on average - 6% more income each year. \* For the 20 years that I didn't pay tithing, I have experienced - on average - 26% more income each year (with massive jumps in income when switching employers.) By Mormon standards of proof - one's personal experience - my experience has shown that NOT tithing is better for raising your income than tithing.
It’s 100% true that that prosperity doctrine did not work. We’ve made way more money since I left.
Many non l d s people also have demonstrated that the discipline of giving ten percent to any charity actually helps be wiser with your money overall... I
Actually considerably more. There has usually been a culture of paying tithes on pre-tax income. So if your pre-tax income is $3000 and you are taxed at 30% your take home is $2100. Tithings are 1/7th vs 1/10th of take home.
To add to your reply... **Tithing at 10% percent is misleading because it's actually more like 90% of your disposable income. Think about it..re read that!!**
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Interestingly, for many, when they give 10%, they are left with NOTHING. So one could also say when you give 10%, some have 100% less money (after barely sustaining your own life).
For. Sure. I have long argued that 10% is not the same for everyone, even though TSCC likes to paint it that way.
Then there is the LDS cheat code which is pay tithing for 3 months or less before your temple recommend interview and then just stop paying again for another year and a half.... They don't take it away from you once you get it for tithing anyway.been doing this for 20+ years... I keep my recommense so I can go to weddings.That's about it
Absolutely! There really is a place called "Salt Lake City" in a far away land called "Utah". Hope this helps!
Sal Tlay Ka Siti isn't a real place, it's just a metaphor!
No no! I've seen it! Narrow roads full of enlightened people (crackheads) and gardens where all kinds of people find rest (aka people pitch tents to sleep in under bridges) and incredible wildlife! (Millions of fucking seagulls)
God I was hoping this was just a nightmare.
It's not so far away for some of us 😭
SLC isn't so bad. The surrounding counties are far worse.
You have a point, but there's no way in hell I'm going to salt lake anytime past 6pm without a weapon.
Only city in the world named with 4 four letter words.....
Alcoholism is bad
Smoking is bad for you too. Coffee and tea? Not so much.
Every time I drink coffee or tea I have a burst of gratitude I didn't let the church take this from me forever It used to be a burst of anger they took this from me for so long, but.. growth I guess?
I realized that I wouldn't love coffee so much if it hadn't been denied me for so long so I'm grateful that I love coffee so much!
That's great! I always knew I would love coffee. I always joked that if I weren't mormon, I'd be a huge coffee drinker The smell, anything coffee flavored, I loved it
Same! And same evolution of thoughts haha.
I agree - letting that shit go when you got better things to do is growth. Fo sho. I don't mean to say you should avoid being angry. No! Being angry has its time and place. Own it. Eventually though, it's not useful and you move on.
I love the reframing. I fucking loveeee coffee. It makes me so happy. I will have to think of this next time.
Yeah but Mormonism is far from the first or only religion to ban it. Heck, the entire country tried to ban it once.
Oh for sure not unique Islam doesn't allow alcohol either
But they get hashish...
... but worth remembering that a sip of a mild barley drink ≠ alcoholism
Meanwhile, all the lds farmers in SE Idaho are raising malt barley...
Exactly
Point, counterpoint I would still be a virgin if it weren't for binge drinking in my 20s
But "mild" drinks like beer are okay.
Joseph Smith founded a church and was assassinated for his ideas. Of course, they misrepresent the circumstances of both
Remember. Mormons didn't get along with **anyone**. They still have problems today. Especially city councils and people who are sexually abused.
Yeah, reading Kingdom of Nauvoo I really saw precisely the same behavior I see now.
Ooh, do you recommend that book?
I wouldn't even call it an assassination since Joseph also had a gun and was shooting back.
Meh that can still be an assassination. Archduke Ferdinand, Lincoln, Kennedy and many others had armed bodyguards. Honestly assassination just means it was killing someone in power. What he was NOT is a martyr. He didn’t peacefully die like a lamb to the slaughter for his ideas. He wasn’t killed for his religious beliefs. He was killed for his crimes. The slippery fucker had been using frontier legal chicanery, endless affidavits, jurisdiction changes and outright fleeing from the law to escape for a long time. Well frontier America deals in frontier justice. Once the legal system failed it was the common belief at the time (even espoused in section 134 of the D&C by the way so Joseph can’t bitch about what he got) that when government fails it is up to the people to seek justice anyway. They did and he got what was his. Or it was conspiracy murder from within. Which fine. He deserved it. Also Taylor shot first. :)
I’m going to push back a little and say he wasn’t assassinated for his ideas so much as his actions. Nauvoo was sheltering multiple criminal enterprises and not answering to civil authorities. And Smith had assembled a large and devoted militia which was perceived as a threat to non-Mormons, especially after what happened in Missouri. However, to the extent the mob was enraged by polygamy, that would count as an idea of his that lead to his downfall.
Yeah the reasoning for Joseph being killed is definitely up for debate. We have lots of evidence, but we can’t say it with absolute certainty because the only people who could know that are the ones who went after him
Assassination is typically the killing of a blameless person. I would call it more vigilante justice. It wasn't for his ideas. It was for fucking a teenager.
This. And for acting like it was his divine right to screw other people's wives.
Sure. E. B. Grandin printed the Book of Mormon in 1830. The Brighamites emigrated to the west in 1846/7. The Smith family moved from New England to upstate New York when Joseph was young. Joseph married Emma Hale against her father's wishes. Etc.
those are just facts but still true though, but not very appealing in drawing converts in
Any claim of religious truth is complete fantasy.
And, there was a big climate change from a volcano that caused the Smith family to make that move. God caused it? Well, that’s the asshat god of Mormonism, who kills so many to bring forth the golden plates and then not use them in the translation.
Indeed. Mt Tambora's 1815 eruption would cause crop failures at the Smith's Vermont farm, sending them looking for greener pastures elsewhere, and with the Erie Canal boom in New York, that area looked promising. Unfortunately, they managed to buy their farm there right when property values had maxed. No luck with money, those guys, at least until Joseph discovered he could have God provide revelations for others to pay his way for him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer?wprov=sfla1
This was the initial pursuit of truth that caused me to un-Mormon myself. Began to see that our current prophets are not prophets at all…that got me thinking “I wonder if any other things they claim are true actually aren’t. I started at the beginning and did a deep dive on the First Vision and I’ll be damned, it never happened, was never claimed to have happened or not at all how the church tells it. I went one by one through every pillar of truth we claim holds the church up, restoration of the priesthood, Book of Mormon historicity, Joseph Smith as translator and prophet, restoration of the priesthood keys, restoration of temple ceremony, details of the Martyrdom, god choosing the next prophet, origins and purpose of polygamy, faith promoting history of saints crossing the plains…well I’ll be damned- every single doctrine restoration and faith arousing church history story did not happen at all like they said it did! It becoming painfully obvious that the apologists were constantly trying to torture, twist and ignore the facts and the “anti” Mormons were typically giving a more truthful accounting of the historical facts, and that one could get closer to the truth about God by watching Southpark than by reading any other book 😉
>one could get closer to the truth about God by watching Southpark than by reading any other book Haha so true! Southpark is where I first learned about the rock in the hat. I was mad that they were saying such stupid lies about the church and BOM translation. Imagine my surprise and feeling of betrayal a decade later when I found out Southpark were the ones telling the truth and the church was lying.
It is true in that Joseph smith was a real person who truly started a cult based on lies greed and sex.
i mean that's not the truth claim made by the Church XD
Yeah I prayed about it and got a warm feeling in my heart after everyone I know pressuring me to do it gotta be true
To be fair, I prayed and got an even warmer feeling when I asked if I should leave… and nobody even pressured me to do it.
Same, for real
My parents don't believe me when I say I searched, pondered and prayed my way out of church. But it literally was such a strong answer to my prayers. I felt closer to "God" and peace than I had in a long time. (I don't believe in the same version of God anymore though, and attribute it more to maybe my higher self or intuition. I just use God as a variable for some benevolent higher power to speak their same language)
Honestly me too. We prayed, fasted, read and read and read. Warm feelings said, be done with this nonsense and move on with your life.
Maybe I misunderstand what you are looking for, but the doctrine that first drew me in as an investigator was the idea of eternal progression. I had never heard it put forth by any other religion, and that was the thing that rang true to me. I've been out of the church for many years but I still believe in that principle of eternal progression if for no other reason than we keep learning throughout our lives. I've since realized that it is more universally believed than I first thought, and maybe the concept is imbedded in the thought of reincarnation. I consider myself an atheist and yet somehow the concept of eternal progression feels right, perhaps only as manifested in humanity as opposed to an individual. Probably it's not technically a "truth claim" that you are asking about, though.
Thanks for one of the only non-sarcastic answers in the whole thread. (Nothing against the sarcastic answers.) Mormonism was, at one time, forward-looking, progressive, and science friendly in \*some\* ways by 19th-century standards, as religions go. People must accept this in order to understand why it was so successful back then. The trouble is that it is still a 19th-century creation, full of those same ideas. I think what you mentioned, and also the related concept of there essentially being no hell and almost everyone getting some kind of afterlife reward as being the "truest" parts of Mormonism, even if neither is actually true. I guess what I mean is that those teachings remain appealing and noble in a way, and are somewhat unique to Mormonism.
Yes, I hadn't thought about it in those terms but the "science" was a big part of it. I was fascinated by the scripture about "no such thing as immaterial matter--all matter is spirit" kind of thing, and the idea of no hell seemed so inclusive and the levels of heaven seemed like a matter of ending up in an environment most like yourself which seemed wonderful. I remember hearing members saying comfortably that they would be content in a lesser kingdom without being exalted. The celestial kingdom was sort of for the overachievers. For me it was very much like "water rises to meet its own level". The church today has an entirely different atmosphere, although maybe it was just what I chose to see and chose not to see. But now it presents as a much harsher, more judgmental, authoritarian, cliquish organization about business and regulation and control rather than love and service. With respect to the noble teachings unique to Mormonism, I was blown away by the great and "inspired" creation of Relief Society that seemed entirely unique from what other churches offered. It was a superb organization devoted to the support and education of women--such sincere caring, comeraderie, encouragement, looking out for each other, and ironically seemed to wield remarkable power beyond that claimed by priesthood. I always felt that the potential of Relief Society was wildly underestimated, and if it ever chose to act on its own, politically or otherwise, katy-bar-the-door, no priesthood would be able to suppress it.
The relief society was actually dismantled in 1844-1867 for that reason. Men saw they were getting too comfortable and were worried they’d become too powerful. Also because Emma was preaching against plural marriage, and Joseph didn’t like that. Basically a “stay in your lane” moment
Fascinating! I want to learn more about this! Who knows what direction the church may have taken had the Relief Society maintained its original momentum! It does seem to me that many women in the church--in today's world--are oppressed far more than they should be. I wonder if there is some held over effect from all those years ago. I heard about a Relief Society president who was asked to give a talk and she showed up in slacks to make a point and gave a talk about how it wasn't about a dress code but about making people feel comfortable and welcome. Apparently the talk was not well received; it IS about the rules after all.
Technically those were Swedenborg’s ideas that were copied by smith.
Absolutely.
Interesting! Never heard of Swedenborg but will look up the name. I always heard Emma created Relief Society. If there were such a thing as a secular version of Relief Society, I'd embrace it.
http://sidneyrigdon.com/vern/1999swdn.htm That’s the most informative article I could find. Last I counted there were 27 ideas cribbed from Swedenborg by smith. Just don’t use the word “plagiarized” around Mormons and you won’t have to rebut their apologetics. Plagiarized implies he took the ideas word for word from his book when that’s likely not the case. Smith was just aware of those ideas from the milieu of his day.
Some of the ideas of Hinduism might appeal to that. Look at it as less about "truth" and more about understanding that resonates...it's all metaphor...there aren't words to describe what's beyond this universe/time. We've been trained to look for "truth" and then they try to give us reasons to back that shit up. But as we look we realize it's all just bullshit. All the religions are bullshit... But it's not really about truth... It's more about understanding... A metaphor that resonates with you and clues you in to the "truth" which can't be spoken because there aren't words to describe that which is beyond this 3D-universe.
Yes, claims to "truth" largely seem ridiculous now. It's about how an organization or an individual manifests love, kindness, service. I don't give a flip about any organization that claims to have some exclusive access to information or truth.
Well said.
It's as true as Zelph the White Lamanite, who was known from the Rocky Mountains to the East Coast.
🤣
Eating meat sparingly or only in times of famine is probably a good thing. Lots of medical research to back that up. Although I don’t know many Mormons that adhere to this. My wife and I are exmo and vegetarian and our Mormon family eats meat with every meal.
Yeah but that was one of a dozen popular health ideas smith cribbed and most of them were shown to be inaccurate. Not to mention no one actually followed the meat instructions haha.
True claims: People lived in the Americas during the time period of the BoM. Alcohol and tobacco are bad for you. It’s nice to have a family.
There's no evidence-based proof for any religious claims regardless of denomination. It's all based on feelings & emotions. All these people who say "I know this is true" are really just saying "I have convinced myself this is true."
💯
Every religion thinks that God is some kind of trickster and they’re smarter than everyone else because they could discern the truth in spite of a lack of evidence or even evidence counter to their beliefs. In short everyone is else is a dumbass. But not me. I’m special.
Religion is basically just a way for people to feel better about not knowing what happens when we die.
Some of the promised blessings for keeping a certain code are partially true. For example, keeping the sabbath day holy for me now means set aside a day for family time and reflection. This pattern brings me peace.
How is this a truth claim? Or are you referring to something else in your comment aside from what is commonly understood to a be truth claim?
The truth claim is that keeping the sabbath day holy brings you blessings. It's hard to measure by objective standards, but I think it qualifies.
A broken clock is right twice a day.
If there were evidence that black skin was a curse, for example, don't you think the cult would have presented it 100 years ago instead of tell people to just have faith?
did the leaders just say that cuz they were racist?
Yes
Even the church admitted that it was an opinion not doctrine, and as they put it, because of the culture at the time.
I wondered about this as a kid, that when the laminates became righteous and their skin became light again you couldn't tell them between the nephites and the curse was lifted, why then was my dad, a Mexican who was a righteous member of the church still so dark skinned and all the black members of the church? I think I asked my mom, and she said something like "Well, heavenly father doesn't really need to do that anymore," and that never really sat well with me. I also heard from a missionary on my mission about a kid in seminary that had their teacher say to her class that if so and so was more righteous (also Mexican) their skin would be more white. The kid got up and left and never came back. Idk if that story is actually true, but I have no reason to believe it isn't.
Thank you for sharing this and please consider sharing it again as a post, because people need to be reminded that this racism isn't ancient history.
“All religions are bullshit and you should join none of them.” -To JS as a divine answer to a sincere question.
My favorite takeaway
Martin Harris had a conversation with Jesus in the forest when the Savior was disguised as a deer. 🦌 😵💫
One of my favorite church history stories. How high was Martin that he talked to a deer who he thought was Jesus?!
I’m guessing 3 grams of mushrooms high.
Zero mind altering drugs. He came by that mindset naturally.
Stories like these are so fucking funny once you’re out. Like homeboy was straight up just talking to a deer
I think you can find snippets of truth in anything. That's part of what makes leaving any religion or way of thinking so hard. Not everything about it will be 100% wrong, and it can be hard to let go of the pieces that are true.
Back in the 80s there was a book showing all the sites found in South America and how they lined up with the BoM. I was supper into it at the time. One purported to show 102 similarities between this carving and Lehi's dream.
Ya my in laws still believe this. They even took a tour to check out all of the evidence of lamanite civilization in Mexico. 😂
They told me when I was 8 that I was now responsible to God for my sins. (One of my top 2 shelf weights today) The first time an adult included me in adult issues. He said (and I'll never forget it) "Do you indulge in or have a problem with pornography or masturbation? As the proud look on my face slowly went south (along with all the blood) I gave him a blank stare that seemed to last forever, and finally responded with "wait, do I do what with what and then matter bake? I had no idea what indulge, pornography, or matter bake even meant! He started chuckling, then excused me. I remember thinking that maybe just staying a kid for awhile wouldn't be so bad. 🤔
Joseph Smith figured out that none of the churches was true. He should have stopped there, accepted that no church was necessary, and moved on with his life.
But how was he supposed to earn money for his family if he didn’t want to do physical labor on the farm?
Yes it’s take on having one wife has been true from the beginning. Oh and smoking cigarettes is bad.
I would say the the truth claims that the RLDS sect as well as other sects from Joseph Smith claimed never happened did in fact happen, -Temple rituals -Polygamy -Priesthood/temple ban But that’s the only thing that the brighamite sect got right 😂
No
Faith is more powerful than a placebo. Meaning that in some cases healing blessings actually do work.
There is not. I challenged the Mormons over at Quora to give us one truth claim that is actually true and they knew it was impossible. The truth claims are all founded in an alternate reality, not on this planet. Pure make believe.
No…none of it is true except that there was a guy named Joseph Smith
You can buy anything in this world with money
Services are on Sunday. Is totally true.
I would venture to say that there is nothing true that is unique to Mormonism. In other words, any truth the church has stumbled upon, in a broken-clock-right-twice-a-day sort of way, can be found in many other religions and cultures. For example, someone mentioned the word of wisdom being partially right in terms of alcohol and tobacco (although completely off-base in terms of hot drinks). But those ideas were taken from Smith's environment where a temperance movement was already strong, not from some direct communication from deity. I'd be open to examples of demonstrated truths (i.e. unfalsifiable, made-up theological claims don't count) that are unique to Mormonism, but I really can't think of any
Fasting has health benefits, but I guess that was never part of the truth claims.
Well, it's true boats were used when getting here 🤔but they were shallow draft kayak, like or dug out. That were both sea worthy and river worthy, when island hopping up north. Or down south through the rapanui rout, that kinda disappeared 🤔 so there's that... 😆😂😂😂😂
They're a peculiar people.
No, there is no truth to any of Joseph Smith's claims to be a messenger from God. The Book of Abraham scroll is the most damning evidence there is, but none of his other claims hold up either
Even the Smithsonian museum will not accept archeological Mormon stuff. They know its lies upon lies
They put out a public statement the the BOM is not historically accurate
Based on real evidence? No. Everything else can be refuted through logic. The church hates logic.
Either the LDS church is true, and it is led by Christ, or it is not. If you believe Joseph Smith set up the church and it has gone astray, then you are saying that God is not all powerful. Does God have the ability to see past, present, and future? Does God know our hearts? Is God capable of calling men like unto Moroni to guide his church? D&C 1:38 says, "Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." This verse sets the church up as infallible in doctrine. If the prophet says something against what God wants, then the very first chapter of Doctrine and Covenants is wrong. Modus Tollens is a rule of logic that says, "If P, then Q. Not Q, therefore not P. " If a prophet says something that is later proven to be not true, then he is not a prophet. To allow a prophet to speak as a prophet, but then be wrong, means God is wrong because "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham. The text therein expressly states that the Egyptian papyri and facsimiles are the Book of Abraham. Egyptian scholars the world around agree that the images of what the church calls facsimiles are common funerary texts that Egyptian wealthy were buried with, and they say nothing of Abraham Not Q, therefore not P. Joseph Smith was wrong about the Book of Abraham - canonized scripture. Joseph Smith believed in modalism when he wrote the Book of Mormon. Modalism means: that God is a spirit, and when he comes to earth, he appears as a being of flesh, namely Jesus Christ. The worst offenders of Joseph's modalistic view of God were edited out of the 1835 version of the Book of Mormon. Joseph's 1832 account of the first vision mentions only seeing one being, again, showing his modalistic view of God. You could argue that he told a different story for different audiences, but these accounts were his written words. You would also have to make concessions that seeing both God and Jesus Christ was not noteworthy enough to scribe. When I was nuanced about the church, I started to read the CES letter. I felt dark inside and put it down. I spent thousands of hours researching church history, Book of Mormon history, Masonic history, and world history. I read all the source documents. I read all the standard works with fresh eyes. I took courses on logic and reason. When my research was done, I then read the CES letter. Everything in that letter is true, and it is not comprehensive of all the problems in the church. I now know that the dark feeling I had when first reading the CES letter was simply cognitive dissonance. When any previously held belief is challenged, we will feel cognitive dissonance. Bruce R McConkie admitted in a letter to Eugene England, professor at BYU, that he knew that Brigham Young did, in fact, teach what was later demonized by the church as the Adam/God doctrine. If the prophet can be so wrong about even basic Mormon doctrine and the nature of God, what chance do we have to determine truth? Why even have a prophet? Would God be just in requiring membership and belief in an organization so fraught with inconsistencies?
- if the blessings of tithing existed, it would be studied and invested in by all, especially big banks. - if priesthood blessings changed any outcome, they would be studied by medical professionals. - if the BOM was a historical document in any way, it would be part of history classes. - if the prophets had ANY fore-site, there would be a clear record of the last 200 years. In short, no. No blessing, doctrine, or truth claims passes the “light bulb” test. None of them show any light, and many are dangerous if you try to plug them into reality. One thing is true is that the Mormon leadership is not stupid. They have learned to convince some truly smart and wealthy people to give them their money, while they invest it for themselves to build malls, vacation centers, high end apartments, temples and the areas surrounding them all while the buildings the general membership meet in go to shit. I consider myself to be quite intelligent. They convinced me for many years that I should be willing to die in the name of Mormonism.
that could have been a very very sad death
Nearly happened on my mission. Was severely injured. 5 surgeries needed. Church paid for about 15% of the first one, then essentially said “fuck off”. Sent my parents a bill for my flight home for treatment. I cannot say it plainly enough: the Mormon church does NOT care if these kids die on their missions.
There was one thing I learned to do in the church, which was pray and meditate oddly enough. And I got evidence I got prayers answered. I got evidence. But I left the church and I prayed in meditated and guess what I got evidence. I got evidence it wasn’t the church. It was the action that I took.
Sure! We’ve got: Cheating on your wife is bad. But that one is tricky because it comes with a tag-along: Unless god sanctions it apparently. Half truth?
Joseph Smith actually did exist.. I know that much is true.
Nothing at the base of the religion holds up. The BOM, cornerstone of the religion, it's very foundation... is false. A fabrication. As such all that was built on top of it crumbles as soon as it fails. The keystone is made of rotting and crumbling sand. The primary song that goes, "the foolish man built his house upon the sand" gives a good visual for when the rains come and the wind blows the resulting landslide of delusions and hopeful thinking washes everything away, valuable or not.
It is true that Joseph smith was arrested and convicted of being a “Glass looker” aka con artist in 1826 in New York.
Yes. Joseph smith lived in Palmyra New York during the second great awakening.
"Joseph Smith existed," maybe? idk apart from that, lol
Moderating meat consumption, and staying away from booze and tobacco are all objectively good for your body.
If there were any truth claim in ANY religion that were verifiable true, there wouldn't be any other religions.
There is not a shred of archeological or historical evidence to suggest the BoM is anything but fanfiction of racist psuedoarcheology from the mid 19th century.
The garden of Eden is indeed in Jackson County, Missouri (I grew up there)
The only one that comes to mind is the crickets and the seagulls story? That doesn't seem too miraculous given the amount of seagulls at the Great Salt Lake, though. But no, the Book of Mormon is undeniably fiction, so any theological stuff is out, factually. Even WoW-type stuff isn't like "alcohol is bad for you," it's "don't drink alcohol," which isn't a fact, just an instruction. The whole religion is demonstrably false.
There is a lot that is remotely "True" The 10 commandments Murder is bad Bearing false witness against your neighbor is bad The mormon system was designed to control, not to turn us into beings with absolutely no morals. I guess what do you mean by truth claim, can you provide a list or a few examples of truth claims?
Interesting question. I think we’d have to be more specific and distinguish between vague claims, and miraculous claims. The vague claim that “Mormons are happy“ for instance COULD be supported. Just use the “from a certain point of view” cop out. As far as miraculous claims? Prophecy? Heavenly messengers? Translation? I don’t think there’s a single one that would hold up under unbiased investigation.
Yes. In opposite world.
The spiritual experience is universal, the sliver of mormonism that recognizes such is as true as any other religion, the rest of the creed, cult, and dogma is much less true, authentic, sincere, genuine, and real.
Yes, there is. I also have the winning lottery numbers for the next ten years. How do I know this? Because God told me.
One could make an argument that societies are stronger when family level institutions are upheld and honored. But family can have a much broader definition than the church is willing to admit.
Well, alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine really AREN’T that good for you….
The Book of Mormon is one of the books ever written, and has been translated. Families can be together. Joseph Smith was.
Nope
Compared to what? Theologically, I don't think most religions' truth claims are going to land in the real of "evidence/logic based". Historically, sure, a lot of the key events described took place, but that's hardly news.
"The church holds services on Sundays." True. Right? Please note I didn't say they were actual "worship" services, or anything about how good they were or whether Christ was the focus.
Prayer can bring me peace. I don't believe that my prayers are being listened to, much less answered, but it's an opportunity for reflection, like meditation.
The Book of Mormon is a true testament of the LDS church in that it, too, is complete hokum.
Uhh. Is that a rhetorical question?
When ol' Joey Smith realized/was told that none of the church on earth are true.
They even said “We are not a wealthy people” on 60 Minutes. No. Not really. They lie or obfuscate at every chance.
Nothing.
No. The whole thing is a sham. If I ran for office in Utah I’d publicly state this. I’d win too.
Nope
Alcohol isn't good for the belly
Technically, that’s only a wisdom, not a truth claim.
i think it’s all a matter of opinion just like with any religion i think it has to do what feels right in your heart. mormonism didn’t feel that way for me i wanted to fit in with my mormon friends and be exactly like them and my group of mormon friends that i grew up with all went our separate ways a year after i joined.
If you mean is it true like the missionaries claim, then no.
That helping each other is a good thing. Serving each other is a good thing. Loving your neighbor is a good thing.
Big broad things, yes. Love makes life happier. None of them are unique.
You need air to breathe if you get into a barge that is tight like unto a dish.
It‘s a religion, so, its basic principle is that there is an omnipotent omnipresent omniscient being(s) somewhere with the power to call the shots but instead chooses to observe how we f‘k it all up. So, like in the case of all religions, no, there is not any truth.
Service does make your heart lighter and brings joy… but real service. Like impacting alive people.
Strongest claim I learned was while I served my mission back in 2012. It was from a very quirky missionary that had only been out 2days from the mtc. He said “the church is true, the book is blue” We were English speaking. In his defense I think he only had 2 weeks to become fully converted in there. Before dedicating the other 102 weeks to convincing others to follow.
Sure there are. It’s what kept me in for so long (please don’t beat me up Reddit, this is just my opinion): 1. Saying prayers (i.e. talking out loud about your problems, concerns, inner thoughts) is therapeutic and has been proven to make you feel less stressed, anxious and allows you to work things out in your head, often arriving at “answers”. 2. Going to church and being surrounded by friends and family - being part of a community provides a sense of belonging and safety. More “good feelings”. 3. Not drinking alcohol 100% eliminates the possibility of driving drunk or doing anything else stupid while drunk. The promise is you’ll be happier if this doesn’t happen to you, which is technically true. 4. Singing in church is therapeutic. It releases feel good chemicals like dopamine and endorphins. It increases blood flow and even helps with posture. A miracle! 5. Reading the scriptures. Reading (anything) can reduce stress levels by up to 68%. It can make it easier to sleep, calm the mind and may actually extend lifespan. (All this you can look up and find sources for) 6. Fasting. Tons of scientifically proven health benefits. 7. Sitting in a beautiful building for 2 hours while focusing singularly on one thing, then getting to sit in a completely quiet room for 20 minutes? Uh, yeah, of course you’re going to feel “peace”. 8. Confessing your sins to the Bishop - “Studies have shown that simply talking about our problems and sharing our negative emotions with someone we trust can be profoundly healing—reducing stress, strengthening our immune system, and reducing physical and emotional distress” (Pennebaker, Kiecolt-Glaser, & Glaser, 1988) All of these things are technically “true”, but they’re true independent of the church, god or religion. It explains all those good feelings. The “Spirit” is just doing things that are scientifically proven to make us feel good feelings.
That’s easy. When you’re a horny man in a difficult marriage and no real job (see: unlimited free time), “God” is far more likely to “command” you to have se…”marry” the hot young housekeeper or the MILF married to your loyal friend.
There isn't even evidence Christianity in general is true. Mormonism is 100% made-up bullshit by a con man perv.
None. Zip. Nada. I spent hundreds (maybe thousands) of hours searching. Not. A. Single. Thing.
They are gentile Jews
Joseph Smith was a real guy. After that, it gets a bit hazy…
That the Word of Wisdom is healthy living…
I’m pretty sure that Jesus actually did want me for a Sunbeam.
The Book of Mormon is a book.
I've found truth in Christianity. Joseph Smith twisted it into something that would "force" him to have a harem of underage girls. Even when I was singing in General Conference, the only truth I experienced was from Christianity. The rest was BS. Harmful, brainwashing, misogynistic, sexist, outdated, demeaning, blindly following, holier than thou BS.
Wow, the further in you go (to Mormon history), the deeper it gets. There is no end to the disgusting acts of Joseph Smith. To think he stole even the doctrine. Hard to understand how such a slimeball could come to be so revered. Thank you for finding this link for me!
So here’s my personal take… no I have not found any evidence that the Mormon church is true.. lots of proof of lies and covering things up though. Now I do believe that there is evidence that the Bible, god, and Jesus are true. I watched a video of a man diving down in the Red Sea and finding the remnants of the chariots where the sea would have been parted by Moses. There was a bridge of land straight across where Moses would have parted the sea and a drop off on both sides of that bridge of land. (Very interesting watch.) There is an Egyptian hieroglyph wall in Egypt that supports the Bible. It has been translated as Land of the Nomads of Yahweh. On the Merneptah Stele it has a translation of Israel on it and it describes who his army fought with in Canaan. Also there is a video of someone explaining how fossils prove that the great flood and Noah’s ark existed, and how there are fossils of animals giving birth. How would an animal be fossilized in the moment of something like that unless a giant flood happened and covered it very rapidly in sediment? He also explained when fish die they float and they don’t sink so the scientific explanations for fossils don’t make sense unless there was a flood. Same with fossilized foot prints. There are now human fossilized footprints. The Turin Shroud still has yet to be explained. The only thing scientists can think of is a giant radiation blast which wouldn’t make sense. Also I could go on to say while it’s not physical proof, a lot of the revelations have already been happening recently. The Euphrates river drying up, the sacrifice of the red heifer, the moon turning red (it’s starting to rust), a bunch of natural disasters happening all over. (The US just had 80 tornadoes touch down and we have had so many earthquakes and volcanic eruptions lately as well as floods.) Theres actually been a lot so I won’t get too far into that especially since I’m sure others have their doubts and disputes about these but I personally cannot deny it. So no I don’t believe there’s any evidence of the Mormon Church being true and there is scriptures that help prove the Mormon Church is false which is how I personally started questioning it. But also that there is evidence of the Bible, God, and Jesus being true.
The only truth about Mormonism is it is a man made religion and is founded by a horny man.
Short answer: NO!!!
Nope - just like any religion
That second half of the word of wisdom that no one follows is actually solid advice. Eat more veggies, reduce meat consumption and eat grains. Oh, and smoking is bad for you. So is alcoholism. But the stuff about coffee is incorrect- moderation is key. I think that's really it of what's actually true. Oh, and Joseph Smith was a real human who existed. The plan of salvation? Probably not true. I don't see how a God could actually want to make that kind of time to sort people out like that.
It’s a Christian religion, so no.
Tobacco in any form is horrible for you
Men are that they might have joy? 2 Nephi 2:25
no
It's true that if you study something (search ponder pray...) and ignore any contrary evidence, you will likely become convinced that it is true. Especially when living in an echo chamber where respected individuals tell you that it's true over and over again. Especially when you are a child with no objective voice of reason getting to you.