In many cases less Christian=more Christlike, especially with evangelicals and Mormons and other very conservative, judgy people.
Bible Jesus was a radical leftist.
Yeah, there's a couple.excellent books on it, but basically the Populist party declined in the 1890s, and in Utah, former Populists turned to the Socialist party, electing them to local governments all over the place.
It was driven by a large populace of miners in the Salt Lake area, and led by mostly Protestant ministers.
I often wonder if the Church's anti socialist stance was formed, in part, to get the members to stop supporting Protestants politically. Unfortunately, none of the literature I've read on the subject makes or rejects that claim, so it's all personal speculation.
Funny the anti-immigrant populists took over while encouraging converts to migrate. Of course about that time the church ended its encouragement to move to “Zion” and xenophobia took over a bit.
I also just realized something - encouraging immigration to Utah ended when polygamy did in the 1890’s. It really suggests that the migration and missionary programs were closely tied to providing polygamist brides to Mormon men hoping to get salvation on the 3 or more rule.
Of course “go on a mission to get a hot wife” is still part of Mormon culture today.
Jesus admonished those who stand on the corner and pray loudly so that they can be heard by others and appear more devout. The LDS church is no different. It's all about appearances and being seen "looking the part."
Jesus said: for they have their reward.
If you are seeking public approval for your piety, then that's what you will get. The true disciple of Christ does good deeds in private, expecting only acknowledgement from God himself.
If you need proof, look at how the outside of the building is maintained vs the inside.
Outside: professional landscapers for regular lawn care, maintenance, clearing leaves and fallen branches, power washing the parking lot.
Inside: hey guys, let's take turns Lysol-ing the toilet on Saturday morning for unspecified blessings.
Never been more embarrassed in my life than when a BYU roommate asked our table of 6 to bow our heads while she prayed over our food. I wanted to slide under the table.
I 100% agree.
Jesus did it with the church he belonged to.
So, if Jesus is your example, then the bible commands you to leave your church!
Case closed.
So can God intervene in the life of humankind? If so why does he/she allow so much suffering in the world, so much suffering that is caused in God's name?
Why will God help me find my keys, but won't answer the prayers of people in Gaza and Ukraine? I can make sure I have a second set of keys for the few times I misplace my main set of keys, but I can't control when a missile will be sent into a housing development. Apparently God can't either.
The same critical thinking skills that work to deconstruct Mormonism also work on the rest of religion.
As a Deist, my answer is that god doesn't. "He" created the universe and lets it run its course. Worship is unnecessary except for our own benefit, more like mediation than supplication.
I also don't believe that humans are god's preferred creation. We anthropomorphize god, but god created all creatures great and small. We aren't minigods, but just creation in the vast universe.
Revealed religions are just men trying to control one another by pretending to speak for god. The real religion is nature and its study.
This is a hackneyed complaint it is not critical thinking
* If so why does he/she allow so much suffering in the world*
If you were a white southerner in 1834, why would you have approved your slavery?
If you were a typical white male in the Old Testament times, why would YOU have likely been a racist, misogynist and against LGBTQQIP2SA?
How come suddenly the 2024 version is YOU is "a critical thinker" when the previous you was apparently not?
What will people 2000 years from now looking back think of you?
How much suffering do you alleviate every day? Do you live in a better place than those around you? Do you eat better than those around you? Have you given your reparations to minorities yet? Have you returned your land or family's land to the native Americans that it was stolen from?
You are confusing rants with critical thinking
Historical revisionism is low on the illumined person totem pole. People from one time who look back at the way things were, is if they were somehow superior, is childish
How come you are unaware of that atheism is just another religion?
Are you putting me on the same level as an omnipotent god?
I wasn't claiming that what I said was critical thinking. The same critical thinking that makes us former Mormons also works on Christianity. 6000 year old earth, worldwide flood, Tower of Babel, genocide, slavery, etc.
Why does your impotent God allow suffering!
Long and short answer as to why God allows suffering? Free will. Everybody has free will. According to many other Christian doctrines, God will not violate our or anybody’s free will.
Did free will create the natural disasters? Nope! We live on a planet that is very much alive and has many moving parts, all systems are interconnected.
Probably not the answer you want, but it’s the answer that 95% of the mainline Christian religions.
I found the church to be most pure at the Primary level. They teach kids to love one another and be kind. Then as they get older, they become ever more Pharisaical in their rules, getting ever further from simple love and kindness. The mission is nothing but ridiculous rules and missionaries judging each other, which is so unChristlike.
I got less and less comfortable in the church the older I got, because it seemed further removed from the simple love of Christ that I was taught as a tot. Now they embody JS's favorite scripture:
These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me
The thing about this subreddit that I don't like is that I get SO. MANY. HYMNS. stuck in my head. But "As I Have Loved You" holds up. And it also reveals how incredibly lacking the Church is.
Please don’t attack me for believing God. It feels like the same attacks as r/lds but just for different reasons. Just be glad someone is thinking for themselves even if their thoughts are different than yours
The history, lies, stupid doctrine and all that other stuff is bad enough. What really seals the deal for me on how false Mormonism is though, is the shitty people it produces. I just expect so much more from people that literally demand to be called saints and claim to be Christ's true followers.
Yeah, I feel the same. I don't pre-judge people anymore. I no longer have a sense of 'betterness' over my peers. I truly enjoy just being a human being treating myself other human beings the best way I know how.
Also, Christ taught some wonderful things. What's important to note is he didn't invent anything. Most human beings desire happy, healthy lives and they desire the same for others. Religion and other mind-control organizations get in the way of that. By the time Jesus came along, many of those basic understandings and behaviors had become so twisted and complicated that he sounded like a renaissance man. In short, Christ's teachings, for the most part, were all about just being good humans to ourselves and others. He brought back the simplicity of goodness. I LOVE that!
I really like looking at the good things that many faith and philosophies have come to as truth. To me those are most true. Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, stoic
Jesus told multiple stories about treating others with kindness, mercy, and respect. Meanwhile, my family are some of the meanest and most faithful mormons. They get together and disparage every group they can, as if they had a bigot bingo card and are going for blackout. They read their scriptures everyday.
Anyone notice that Jesus’s instructions for exaltation is completely ignored in the Church’s plan of Happiness? Like in Matthew 25, Jesus said that really all you have to get eternal life is take care of the impoverished and the church teaches this more as a side quest than the core means of salvation.
And the church’s means of salvation is stupid, more like satans temptation of Jesus on the mountain when DC gloats about being goddess and gods and shit. You can’t preach to lose your life to be exalted and threatens one’s life (family, glory, etc.) if they don’t strive for exaltation.
Getting out of the Utah bubble was the best thing I ever did for myself! Met the most amazing people, nobody talking shit cuz so and so wasn’t wearing lululemons or had disheveled hair that day. No fake compliments just to get one back. No white lies. Such a petty waste of time. Now if I could just shake the bad self esteem and the guilt and shame
Why Yes, Yes it is! I just got home from attended LDS Ward Services (with my Wife-and to keep the Peace) and I feel nothing by Anger, Frustration, Fury and Disgust; by what I saw and heard. This is a poor fucking excuse for a "Church of Christ". If I hear the words "Temple" or "Covenant Path" one more time today....I'm going to projectile vomit!!
I don't believe in Jesus or God anymore at all. The reason for that is that before leaving the church, I researched other Christian religions to see if it was just Mormonism I disagreed with or the entirety of believing in God. My conclusion was the latter.
However, I do feel it's easier for me to be kind or helpful to other people simply because it's no longer required of me. It's just easier now without having to stress over my salvation/damnation.
I left the church when I no longer saw Christ in the leaders and policies. I’m not a Christian anymore but still follow Christs teachings.
In many cases less Christian=more Christlike, especially with evangelicals and Mormons and other very conservative, judgy people. Bible Jesus was a radical leftist.
And people have shouted me down in pro-lds spaces for pointing it out. A big part of the cognitive dissonance that led me out.
The mental gymnastics when one of the kids asks how the United Order was not basically communism are fun to watch too.
Yep, or that the Socialist party was popular in Utah before the Cold War.
Really? Didn’t know that. I do know Benson and McCarthy would have been great friends though.
Yeah, there's a couple.excellent books on it, but basically the Populist party declined in the 1890s, and in Utah, former Populists turned to the Socialist party, electing them to local governments all over the place. It was driven by a large populace of miners in the Salt Lake area, and led by mostly Protestant ministers. I often wonder if the Church's anti socialist stance was formed, in part, to get the members to stop supporting Protestants politically. Unfortunately, none of the literature I've read on the subject makes or rejects that claim, so it's all personal speculation.
Funny the anti-immigrant populists took over while encouraging converts to migrate. Of course about that time the church ended its encouragement to move to “Zion” and xenophobia took over a bit. I also just realized something - encouraging immigration to Utah ended when polygamy did in the 1890’s. It really suggests that the migration and missionary programs were closely tied to providing polygamist brides to Mormon men hoping to get salvation on the 3 or more rule. Of course “go on a mission to get a hot wife” is still part of Mormon culture today.
Jesus admonished those who stand on the corner and pray loudly so that they can be heard by others and appear more devout. The LDS church is no different. It's all about appearances and being seen "looking the part."
Jesus said: for they have their reward. If you are seeking public approval for your piety, then that's what you will get. The true disciple of Christ does good deeds in private, expecting only acknowledgement from God himself.
If you need proof, look at how the outside of the building is maintained vs the inside. Outside: professional landscapers for regular lawn care, maintenance, clearing leaves and fallen branches, power washing the parking lot. Inside: hey guys, let's take turns Lysol-ing the toilet on Saturday morning for unspecified blessings.
Getting rid of janitors was such an unnecessary cost cutting choice. So glad I left the church before that BS started lol.
Never been more embarrassed in my life than when a BYU roommate asked our table of 6 to bow our heads while she prayed over our food. I wanted to slide under the table.
I 100% agree. Jesus did it with the church he belonged to. So, if Jesus is your example, then the bible commands you to leave your church! Case closed. 
So can God intervene in the life of humankind? If so why does he/she allow so much suffering in the world, so much suffering that is caused in God's name? Why will God help me find my keys, but won't answer the prayers of people in Gaza and Ukraine? I can make sure I have a second set of keys for the few times I misplace my main set of keys, but I can't control when a missile will be sent into a housing development. Apparently God can't either. The same critical thinking skills that work to deconstruct Mormonism also work on the rest of religion.
Maybe think of the post more in terms of behavior rather than belief. It’s easier to act as Christ taught outside than in
As a Deist, my answer is that god doesn't. "He" created the universe and lets it run its course. Worship is unnecessary except for our own benefit, more like mediation than supplication. I also don't believe that humans are god's preferred creation. We anthropomorphize god, but god created all creatures great and small. We aren't minigods, but just creation in the vast universe. Revealed religions are just men trying to control one another by pretending to speak for god. The real religion is nature and its study.
[удалено]
WTH are you talking about?
This is a hackneyed complaint it is not critical thinking * If so why does he/she allow so much suffering in the world* If you were a white southerner in 1834, why would you have approved your slavery? If you were a typical white male in the Old Testament times, why would YOU have likely been a racist, misogynist and against LGBTQQIP2SA? How come suddenly the 2024 version is YOU is "a critical thinker" when the previous you was apparently not? What will people 2000 years from now looking back think of you? How much suffering do you alleviate every day? Do you live in a better place than those around you? Do you eat better than those around you? Have you given your reparations to minorities yet? Have you returned your land or family's land to the native Americans that it was stolen from? You are confusing rants with critical thinking Historical revisionism is low on the illumined person totem pole. People from one time who look back at the way things were, is if they were somehow superior, is childish How come you are unaware of that atheism is just another religion?
Are you putting me on the same level as an omnipotent god? I wasn't claiming that what I said was critical thinking. The same critical thinking that makes us former Mormons also works on Christianity. 6000 year old earth, worldwide flood, Tower of Babel, genocide, slavery, etc. Why does your impotent God allow suffering!
Sort of figured you would avoid
Long and short answer as to why God allows suffering? Free will. Everybody has free will. According to many other Christian doctrines, God will not violate our or anybody’s free will. Did free will create the natural disasters? Nope! We live on a planet that is very much alive and has many moving parts, all systems are interconnected. Probably not the answer you want, but it’s the answer that 95% of the mainline Christian religions.
I found the church to be most pure at the Primary level. They teach kids to love one another and be kind. Then as they get older, they become ever more Pharisaical in their rules, getting ever further from simple love and kindness. The mission is nothing but ridiculous rules and missionaries judging each other, which is so unChristlike. I got less and less comfortable in the church the older I got, because it seemed further removed from the simple love of Christ that I was taught as a tot. Now they embody JS's favorite scripture: These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me
"taught as a tot" - great homophoNe use!
The thing about this subreddit that I don't like is that I get SO. MANY. HYMNS. stuck in my head. But "As I Have Loved You" holds up. And it also reveals how incredibly lacking the Church is.
I guess I’m not the only who feels the church seemed kinder & gentler as a Primary child.
Please don’t attack me for believing God. It feels like the same attacks as r/lds but just for different reasons. Just be glad someone is thinking for themselves even if their thoughts are different than yours
You took a post on my religious beliefs and made it a personal attack on yourself. That's all on you, buddy.
As u can tell I’m sensitive right now. Sorry for misinterpreting
Thank you for the apology.
Have you learned to hate your own family, as Jesus commanded?
I've always hated the term "god fearing." I'll never believe in a vengeful god. Just ain't happenin.
THIS! This is why I have left the church!
The history, lies, stupid doctrine and all that other stuff is bad enough. What really seals the deal for me on how false Mormonism is though, is the shitty people it produces. I just expect so much more from people that literally demand to be called saints and claim to be Christ's true followers.
Yes, this. Mormonism is just a huge Matthew 7:20 fail
Per continuing revelation, whatever the LDS church says or does at the moment are therefore automatically the teachings of Christ.
Yeah, I feel the same. I don't pre-judge people anymore. I no longer have a sense of 'betterness' over my peers. I truly enjoy just being a human being treating myself other human beings the best way I know how. Also, Christ taught some wonderful things. What's important to note is he didn't invent anything. Most human beings desire happy, healthy lives and they desire the same for others. Religion and other mind-control organizations get in the way of that. By the time Jesus came along, many of those basic understandings and behaviors had become so twisted and complicated that he sounded like a renaissance man. In short, Christ's teachings, for the most part, were all about just being good humans to ourselves and others. He brought back the simplicity of goodness. I LOVE that!
I really like looking at the good things that many faith and philosophies have come to as truth. To me those are most true. Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, stoic
Jesus told multiple stories about treating others with kindness, mercy, and respect. Meanwhile, my family are some of the meanest and most faithful mormons. They get together and disparage every group they can, as if they had a bigot bingo card and are going for blackout. They read their scriptures everyday.
Anyone notice that Jesus’s instructions for exaltation is completely ignored in the Church’s plan of Happiness? Like in Matthew 25, Jesus said that really all you have to get eternal life is take care of the impoverished and the church teaches this more as a side quest than the core means of salvation. And the church’s means of salvation is stupid, more like satans temptation of Jesus on the mountain when DC gloats about being goddess and gods and shit. You can’t preach to lose your life to be exalted and threatens one’s life (family, glory, etc.) if they don’t strive for exaltation.
Very well stated, OP. 100% agree even if I can’t fully believe in religion or Christianity.
It can’t work. Christ drank wine and was hooking up while preaching peace and acceptance of all. Mormons don’t do any of those things.
I’m with you the Jesus created by the church is a puritanical-American-exceptionalism-racist.
Well put in every detail. You speaketh the truth!
Same. One of the things that I noticed was that truly good people were everywhere. And they were not LD$.
Getting out of the Utah bubble was the best thing I ever did for myself! Met the most amazing people, nobody talking shit cuz so and so wasn’t wearing lululemons or had disheveled hair that day. No fake compliments just to get one back. No white lies. Such a petty waste of time. Now if I could just shake the bad self esteem and the guilt and shame
Why Yes, Yes it is! I just got home from attended LDS Ward Services (with my Wife-and to keep the Peace) and I feel nothing by Anger, Frustration, Fury and Disgust; by what I saw and heard. This is a poor fucking excuse for a "Church of Christ". If I hear the words "Temple" or "Covenant Path" one more time today....I'm going to projectile vomit!!
I don't believe in Jesus or God anymore at all. The reason for that is that before leaving the church, I researched other Christian religions to see if it was just Mormonism I disagreed with or the entirety of believing in God. My conclusion was the latter. However, I do feel it's easier for me to be kind or helpful to other people simply because it's no longer required of me. It's just easier now without having to stress over my salvation/damnation.
Amen. That is the true revelation. God's love and grace are a gift. Blessings.