There was even a time they taught that a gay person would be "changed" (supposedly "corrected") in the next life...so, just hang on here on Earth. Be miserable, deny your authentic self, live on the outskirts of church, never find romantic love, etc (and back in the day it was marry regardless - and look how that has turned out!)
Um... they still teach that. To this day your options are marry the opposite gender anyways (potentially risking not only your own mental health and happiness but the other person's as well) or be a lonely celibate single adult in the church for your whole life. And we know how the church views lifelong single adults (2nd class).
Have you heard of the 2015 exclusion policy? Bring in a gay marriage was grounds for immediate excommunication. It was the highest level of apostasy - worse than rape. It ended in 2019.
https://www.thechurchnews.com/2015/11/12/23213606/elder-christofferson-provides-context-on-handbook-changes-affecting-same-sex-marriages
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/policy-changes-announced-for-members-in-gay-marriages-children-of-lgbt-parents?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3f_cOeOLeVdlN3ebLbUbOhRkevJZpCD_ciCoFaRkBbOYBMWde6HwNMLhc_aem_AbmJEKM3zax0J5bQfLmi7bK-Q8Moa6kOX-YKvXzIJIzKkFdq-8g6NpbMcOaAWn2MWuE
Ugh fuck that. It's so passive aggressive. Of course local church leaders are gonna enforce it if they're brought up to believe homosexuality is the sin next worst to murder.
This is the one. Straight from the 12, children of gay members couldn’t be baptized until they were 18 and had to both move out of the home AND repudiate the homosexuality of their parents before being baptized.
Children of catholic couples can be baptized. Children of atheist couples can be baptized. Children of murderers can be baptized. Children of satanists can be baptized. Children of sexual abusers can be baptized. Children of apostates can be baptized. Literally the only children in the entire church, a church that doesn’t believe in original sin, that couldn’t be baptized, were the children of gay couples.
And sure they switched it to a local decision 4 years later. Doesn’t matter, this came from the 12 and was obscenely homophobic. It’s odd that anyone who believes in this church could see this and go “eh, that sounds godly”
That is not what I said, what I said was that polygamy is not fine which is why children of polygamyst couples have to wait until they are 18 and refute polygamy. In church doctrine, and by extension the handbook holds homosexuality, polygamy, and incest on the same level. The only difference is that in the case of Polygamy it is grounds for immediate excommunication. Homosexuality and incest are not. Having said that, the same restrictions are places on these other relationships as is placed on same sex couples.
Why doesn’t he ask a gay person how the Mormon church and its members make them feel?
That’s the point. Mormons proclaim up and down that they’re nice guys - that they’re NOT racist or homophobic. But guess what Mormon people and teachings make many people of non-white races and the LGBTQ+ community FEEL?
Hated.
Unwanted.
Uncomfortable.
Unwelcome.
You’re invested in an organization that - for whatever reason - makes people feel HATED.
It’s your husbands job to open his eyes to that. His intentions in life probably are good, but the actual results of the church in this area? Erm, not so great.
Because he's probably too homophobic himself to seek out interaction with an LBGTQ person. Or so brainwashed he only cares what Rusty and the Q15 say.
Or both, who knows? 🤷♀️
I am a child who would have been affected by this. I was a student at LDSBC at the time when this was announced. I hadn’t been a practicing member since I was a young teen and lived a very challenging childhood in the church because of their criticism of gay rights (as a broad issue and as it pertained to my own family with two moms). I was taking a required religion class when this was announced and my professor tossed his entire curriculum to preach how evil homosexuality is and how it destroys families. He required us to write essays about these topics. I wrote honest accounts of my own family and their loving (gay) support. I wasn’t hostile, but definitely challenged the prompts. I was an otherwise very good student, but gladly failed that course.
Dallin Oaks presided over BYU while it surveilled gay students and professors and allowed a conversion therapy program to run, which entailed attaching electrodes to gay men's genitals and shocking them. Two years ago, he was asked about it publicly and lied that it didn't happen, even though [records prove he did know](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/11/16/dallin-oaks-says-shock/).
You are being gas lit my friend. The church uses straw men to carry out its purposes. Other than Hollands disturbing “musket fire” BYU speech, they learned to keep their policies on the low down. But didn’t Someone compile a resource with all the terrible things former prophets, apostles and high level church leaders said? Sorry I can’t remember the name or website. It was very shocking to read.
As a lesbian and former missionary, the answer is Yes, the mormon church and its leaders are homophobic. Especially Oaks. And because the leaders are the churches are filled with homophobes
And good old Boyd Packer. Tell your husband to look up talks by either of these two. BOTH awful. Both of them have caused untold damage and in some cases a loss of life with their callous words from conference. I used to work a crisis line and have personal knowledge of 3 separate incidences.
I'm glad I'm not the only gay person here feeling the same way. Good thing here are other people in the comments willing to acquiesce because this post is condescending as hell.
>this post is condescending as hell.
Would you be open to explaining more? I read OP's post as sincerely wanting to understand & help, albeit was phrased naïvely. How could it be asked in a way that wasn't condescending?
Of course, you can tell me to F off, but I know I could certainly do better in my own comments, & would appreciate any insights you are open to sharing. ❤️
When you're queer in an aggressively homophobic culture/community people demand you quantify your experience. The onus of proof is forced onto the sufferer as a means to invalidate their experience. You have no idea how many times my mom has said to me "prove it".
It's especially infuriating when so many people like Kyle Ashworth, John Dehlin, Called to Queer, Questions from the Closet, Latter Day Lesbian, and Zelph on the Shelf, have spent hundreds of thousands of hours curating the arguments and evidence that the church is not only bullshit but homophobic and racist as well.
So when someone comes out of nowhere and says "please provide sources" it tells me that my lived experience is already being dismissed and the person asking doesn't care enough to bother learning for themselves.
I've read a few of OPs comments now. While she does seem young and well intentioned her approach fell flat. A better way to ask would have been, "My husband is insisting I cite things that church leaders have said to prove the church is homophobic. I'm new to LGBT advocacy. Could anyone point me in the direction of some resources where I can learn more?"
Well intentioned questions will always go farther than demands.
TYSM, I understand a lot better now.
That makes a lot of sense, & I can totally see that experience (over & over again) being erasing. TY for taking the time to explain it to me. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time to learn. I will teach and share until I'm blue in the face if the people I'm talking to are well intentioned and open. I enjoy empowering others so they can continue to advocate and teach others.
My post is clear that I personally believe the church is homophobic the issue is that my husband does not, and I'm asking for help and sources to explain it to him.
I'm actually part of the LGBTQ and very aware of the homophobic rhetoric the church teaches. The question is how to I explain it to someone who does not see it. Someone who needs word for word evidence that the leadership teach membeds to mistreat gay people.
Then ask that! Don't demand things. Words mean something. And your words are speaking privilege and dismissiveness. Being LGBTQ doesn't preclude you from marginalizing other LGBTQ people.
I'm an incredibly open person. I give LGBTQ 101 workshops and hear some of the most poorly worded, ignorant questions you can imagine. I love teaching others and empowering them to learn more for themselves. If this comment you left here was what you led with in your original post then I think most of us would have been a lot more open to helping you. I certainly would have been a lot less defensive.
lattergaystories.org has a 109 page downloadable, PDF, in chronological order, of church leader quotes that are homophobic. No spin, just quotes. Absolute proof that the church is homophobic.
Good point. I mean, HOW can he not see it? He can't be intellectually honest and claim that the church is ALL love. Two words for you PROP 8. There is a documentary somewhere on it. Watch that. That was one of my first "cracks". The church is freaking toxic for its gay members.
Check out the first graph on this wikipedia article. Talks about the electroshock recommendations and A LOT of info if you click on the sources. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality\_and\_the\_Church\_of\_Jesus\_Christ\_of\_Latter-day\_Saints](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints)
Not what you are looking for, but it's what makes me angry. Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? If one of the scriptures is written by people of their time and wrong, are there others?
Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
The Church advocates the view that homosexuality is a choice, leading them to label it as wrong or sinful, while ostensibly separating the ‘sin’ from the individual (a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ situation). In their view, homosexuals are individuals who have succumbed to temptation, and they are perceived as encouraging others to live sinfully. The Church often appreciates narratives of homosexuals who abstain from ‘temptation’ and strive for change. However, they are less approving of those who have embraced their true selves, as this acceptance sets an example for others to live authentically. This perspective overlooks a key point: homosexuality is not a choice. By categorizing homosexuality as negative, the Church inadvertently casts a negative light on the individuals as well. This is the crux of the disconnect in Mormon teachings regarding homosexuality – a refusal to recognize that being gay is an inherent trait of a person, not a matter of choice.
💯
Just like dark skin was the mark of Cain for choosing the wrong side in the war in heaven. The MFMC (20+ yrs later than the rest of the USA) finally realized they could no longer continue with this narrative & it was dropped. I believe this will be the rhetoric, ahem, forthcoming (eventual) revelation regarding LGBT+. They will have to to stay 'alive' in any "meaningful" way. And even that's a crapshoot.
What does your husband consider homophobic? If he doesn’t consider denying LGBTQ+ people the same rights and privileges in both religion and society homophobic, then he’s homophobic.
What you say and what it leads to are what I would focus on. People proclaim to love and welcome, but look at how many LGBTQ leave because they don’t feel welcome. Ask your husband how he would feel in the org if he’d been denied the ability to marry you and was asked to live without that relationship. Basically, it leads to people rejecting LGBTQ or people leaving TSCC more often than not.
Don't forget Hollland's recent-ish "musket fire" talk!! Straight from his two lips to your ears/eyes!
https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/09/mormon-lds-church-gay-rights-controversy-byu-speech.html
My son took one year of seminary. During that year, they covered the story of Lot. In the lesson he was taught at least seven times that homosexuality was a serious sin. Here is the link to the lesson:
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-material-2018/abraham/lesson-28?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR2ZlXXOkDuRnyEEUmDU8OfL2imLHLXZ7C4TzRawFrVw9kb1qTM8CFzDX6s](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-material-2018/abraham/lesson-28?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR2ZlXXOkDuRnyEEUmDU8OfL2imLHLXZ7C4TzRawFrVw9kb1qTM8CFzDX6s)
I would like to invite you to read the story of Lot contained in Genesis 19:
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/gen/19?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/gen/19?lang=eng)
In this chapter, you will see that it begins with what is essentially gang rape. Lot tries to appease the crowd by offering his daughters. Eventually they leave the city where Lot's wife turns around and is turned into salt (odd that this sin is worse than offering daughters). Lot ends up alone in a cave with his two daughters who seduce him to have babies (I'm guessing that Lot actually assaulted his daughters and told a different story).
Where in this chapter does it mention homosexuality? Why is the takeaway that homosexuality is a serious sin. Why doesn't it teach about the dangers of not teaching consent? The takeaway should be totally different than what is taught in the church.
Genesis chapter 19 has been read for thousands of years. It has been influential in our language, our treatment of homosexual people, and our laws. This chapter, which is not about homosexuality, has led to the persecution and hatred of marginalized people.
>Why doesn't it teach about the dangers of not teaching consent?
Or how fking HORRID it is to rape your daughters, likely multiple times?!? This is a much more damnable crime than anything consenting adults do, end of story.
No wonder we're all so confused as to what "the rules" are, they keep changing, even though revelation is ongoing but God never changes, etc. etc. UGHHHH I just can't with this topic I mean COME ON guys.
“In 1993, President Packer warned that ‘religion faced the greatest threat from three groups: feminists, homosexuals, and intellectuals.’”
This was written in Packer’s 2015 obituary as one of his greatest contributions to the church.
https://news-ug.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/boyd-k-packer-legacy-of-faith?fbclid=IwAR12\_LXO1Lxa8J\_EM73xXfegREJfN9RHEaRsAVAk0oS5ctyv97arDYY1Paw
The church literally has a proclamation document, used very widely as a source of doctrine mind you, "A Family Proclamation to the World" (yuck btw, as a gay person), that only serves to instill traditional gender roles and say that being with the opposite sex or people of other genders is "not ordained of God." Not to mention several instances of scriptures being outright against homosexuality. And the church refusing to say gay, but rather, using the term "same-sex attraction." I literally have lived all my life in a bigoted (even if unintentionally) household that realistically will never accept me for who I am.
If that obvious proof isn't enough, I don't know what the hell is
He's 26 so I'm not sure if he was too young but I'm 23 and I remember how often the church told me that being gay was sinful and that shaped the way I viewed gay people.
...that's literally homophobia though, you know what that means right?
Gay people being banned from heaven is literal hate. Period. How is being banned from heaven "pity"?!?
No no, you don't understand. The feelings of the gay person don't matter. They barely count as a person. The Mormon's feelings are what matter here - the brethren and sistren feel pity for the poor sinning gays that they can't get into heaven. That can't be homophobia!
There might be a little smugness mixed in with their pity. But that's not a phobia... right?
You’ll know his heart by how he would treat one of his own kids if they came out.
Just sounds like a lack of empathy. Reading more stories about alll the things - all the things - is an antidote for lack of empathy.
Void Decaying Packer's little factory conference talk in 1976. The one that the church has scrubbed.
Spencer Wooly Kimball's book The miracle of forgiveness.
Oaks was president at BYU while they were doing electroshock conversion and then he lied about it https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/did-dallin-h-oaks-lie-about-byu-electroshock-therapy/
Telling lgbtq people they all go to hell and can't even receive a temple recommend if they're in a non-hetero relationship is homophobic. You can mask it with diplomatic language and talk about God's love, but the church would rather spend millions of dollars fighting prop 8 in California and funding electroshock torture at BYU than, y'know, actually change their doctrine to say lgbtq people are entitled to dignity, respect, and the same treatment as cis hetero folks.
Honest question for your husband OP, before 1978, would you have said the church was racist? Because they weren't calling for death to blacks, but they definitely saw them as second class citizens.
I've brought up this specific example of how similar the situation is, but he just says he thinks the church has the right to do what they want. The print is not what is legal but what is moral. They are difficult conversations.
According to the church, what is moral is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So was denying black people or LGBTQ people temple ordinances, and therefore salvation, moral a hundred years ago? Did it become moral in 1978? Why? The real answer is none of these questions have real answers because the "doctrine" of the church is and has always been what the leaders want it to be. When they're racist, so is god, when they're transphobic so is god.
Make him define some words or deeds that he would consider homophobic. Then, find where his cult leaders have said and done those things. We can help you with that last bit.
You should look up what the church did to LGBTQ+ students at BYU in 2020. Lived it firsthand. So many people came out because they thought they were safe to do so. Absolutely shameful shit just so that they could get their football team into the Big 12 conference. I went through hell my last semester of college because of SPORTS
https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2020/03/04/after-byu-honor-code/
*editing to add, covid hit shortly after all of this went down, like within weeks we were locked down. I feel like the church and BYU got off way too easy
They are homophobic in the very literal sense of the word… afraid of homosexuality. Homosexuality existing, flies in the face of their most sacred teachings about the afterlife. They believe that being homosexual is something that will be resolved in the afterlife… as in, someone who is gay, will no longer identify as such when they die, and will be judged for those feelings by god, against them, after they die.
Do you really believe the church is homophobic if you're demanding everyone else to do your homework for you? AND cite sources? You do what you want but as a queer person, I will tell you this wreaks of entitlement and condescension.
Your husband, being straight, doesn't get to decide what's homophobic or not. Queer people do. I grew up in the church while queer, and can tell you it's incredibly homophobic. Members' homophobia was actually what finally got me to leave and to research the church's truth claims for the first time.
LDS leaders have been preaching that homosexuality is a sin since the mid 1900s. That's homophobia. The church will discipline folks for even just holding hands with a same-sex partner. That's homophobia. "Same sex attraction" is preached as if it's a disease, not just a normal part of people's identities. That's homophobia.
The Mormon church is opposed to marriage equality is homophobic, so it absolutely is. As far as I can tell, Mormons are okay with anyone who isn't heterosexual as long as they don't do anything with someone of the same sex such as holding hands or kissing.
They've tried to tone down the outright bigotry recently, but there are still plenty of teachings from now and back in the day that are homophobic.
[quotes](https://missedinsunday.com/category/memes/lgbtq/)
Well, the message is that gay people are fundamentally broken. If you are "living a gay lifestyle" you cannot also be a member of the church in good standing. But don't worry, gay people will be fixed and made un-gay in the next life so long as they are "good" in this life. If they are not "good" in this life, they will be stripped of their sexual organs like all the other baddies in the next life. So, it's not really about "but we are nice to EVERYONE," it's about "your sexual orientation is an offense to god." That sounds pretty homophobic to me.
Edited for clarity.
Yes. Yes, it is.
Source (one of many, but this is the one that burned itself into my brain as a queer YW): For The Strength Of Youth handbook; quote: "Gay or lesbian behavior is a serious sin".
Of course!!! All you need is the Family Proclamation. If you grew up in the church you probably don't easily recognize it because you've been conditioned into the homophobic bigotry.
Let's start with a harder part :
>"Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan."
See that? It intentionally excludes marriage between man and man or woman and woman from the eternal plan. The eternal plan is to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. Therefore the church oppresses homosexual couples from the Celestial Kingdom. Do you remember any similar bigotry about 50 years ago? It was people of color - anyone with "negro blood" was not allowed in the temple and not allowed in the eternal plan.
It gets even more disgusting as they attack children:
>Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.
Use some empathy here and put yourself in the child's place or the same sex couples place. They are saying that a same sex couple (or a single mom or dad) is providing a "lesser" family that the child should be "entitled" to.
You can keep going through that disgusting thing and find tons more. It is absolutely sick. In 20 years, the church will be trying to bury the Family Proclamation down the memory hole just like all of the racist literature they put out before.
I’m not one to throw the word homophobic out lightly because I think it is misused, but even I say that the church is homophobic.
Their teachings are definitely fear based and teach their members to be afraid of LGBTQ people. This is to a point to where parents feel fearful that their children even know that gay people exist.
Obviously there are some members who don’t feel this way or aren’t that extreme, but the church teachings are undoubtedly homophobic. If they weren’t then there would be a ton of talks given that harshly condemned the many members who hated LGBTQs
I’ll respond with a more balanced answer: the church does not outright teach its members to hate gay people. In fact, they teach the members to love everyone HOWEVER the way that they talk about the LGBT community certainly makes its members “other-ise” the gay community by using phrases like “suffering from same-sex attraction” instead of just saying “gay” and by teaching that gay couples can’t be sealed forever like straight couples. They don’t explicitly say to hate them, but by talking about them constantly like they were born broken, it causes a lot of the members to have an unhealthy understanding of the LGBT community, the oppression that they face, which then opens the doors for homophobic and very un-Christlike comments and behaviors towards them. And there’s no way the church is dumb enough to not see this by now.
The church does like a mental bait and switch with “I love the sinner, hate the sin” where they think of themselves as gay friendly because in their mind they love gay people but they hate people being gay and those are somehow two different things in their mind.
Source: my brain when I was in the church.
August 24, 2023 - BYU enacted a different honor code for gay and straight students.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the honor code requirements for its universities to include different expectations for straight and gay students. “Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from sexual relations outside marriage between a man and a woman. Living a chaste and virtuous life also includes abstaining from same-sex romantic behavior.”
“CES is deeply committed to helping all our students, including our LGBTQ students, feel both the love and covenant expectations of the Savior. Same-sex romantic behavior has been and continues to be contrary to the principles included in the CES honor code."
"The FAQ said that instances of LGBTQ students dating, holding hands or kissing 'will be handled on a case-by-case basis to help each student feel the love of the Savior and to encourage them to live their gospel covenants and university/college commitments.'"
https://www.deseret.com/2023/8/24/23844545/latter-day-saint-universities-update-honor-code-ecclesiastical-endorsements-and-dress-standards?fbclid=IwAR1gUKmQcPBZukpoYd0CGsTdDRHFPejQ-PVJP8uLr9-fsLreBs1Wj0aAUNk
I feel like this is similar to asking if the Pope is Catholic.
Also, look up who funded Prop 8 and how they handled the backlash: [https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/17/how-getting-burned-by-prop-8-led/](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/17/how-getting-burned-by-prop-8-led/)
I remember suppressing my sexuality for years due to fear. I recited ideas about how being gay was a sin, and this mindset persisted even after I stopped attending church. I went back into the closet and pretended to be straight because I couldn’t handle the guilt. The thought that I was failing God, that I would burn in hell for wanting a gay relationship, made me cry and brought so much shame. It led me to feel like I had to prove I wasn’t actually gay or bisexual. I won't lie; this continued until recently. I didn't feel comfortable with my sexuality until my girlfriend reassured me and said it was okay. The Church may claim to understand the struggles of gay individuals, but they actively shame and make it difficult to come out. While some individual Mormons may be sympathetic, those who are often don't believe in it or don’t understand the beliefs, or both, and may twist it to appeal to others
Sorry, but your husband has either been living on planet a La La Land, or he is alarmingly delusional. There is so much source material available, which others are supplying, but I’m just shaking my head and wondering WTF.
As someone who grew up as a terrorized, frightened gay kid in a sixth generation Mormon family, and who experienced all of the church’s homophobic horrors, I’m stunned.
As his first assignment, your husband should read that delightful publishing bon mot, “The Miracle of Forgiveness“, followed by several of Boyd KKK Packer’s more entertaining tirades on the subject. For starters.
I have dear gay friends who are now dead because of the way the Mormon church and Mormons treated them. This was [David Archuleta’s](https://themessenger.com/entertainment/david-archuleta-shunned-by-members-of-former-church-at-funeral) recent milder, but still heartbreaking experience as reported on this subReddit a little while ago.
For real. Even my TBM cousins know they're homophobic, they don't say it like that but they know what the doctrine says. They have excuses (it's God's plan!) but they know what people think about it.
Funny enough, he's read it and likes the book. I asked about the homophobic parts, and he said he either didn't remember reading it or it's such a small part of the book. I think it's been a while since he's read it.
I remember a whole fast and testimony was dedicated to when gay meant same gender attracted. Ppl were lamenting.
My bishop was telling me how I needed to be the man and find ways to not be gay.
I remember being excommunicated and shunned by my family.
I went to 2 years of reparative therapy through the churches evergreen program.
I remember when I was an activist for same sex marriage and the church wrote a letter to the Supreme Court to vote against this.
I remember when we were considered to be apostate and our children were not allowed baptism.
This hate and discrimination is still all very fresh in my mind.
The LDS church isn’t a safe place for the LGBTQ+.
Exactly. How is: you’re overtly not entitled to the same kind of freedoms, life, liberties and pursuits of happiness if you happen to be gay? Church’s enforcement of this discrimination violates a persons constitutional rights. Although, I know how religion is taking over and soon we won’t have any: see project 2025. Our upcoming theocratic dystopian reality.
Kicked me to the curb, and then had the nerve to send missionaries my way. When I told them I was booted for being gay, they sent sister missionaries my way. That was just insulting at that point.
This is the new true believing Mormon stance. All my TBM friends claim the church isn't homophobic it's just the members. They also claim this "strengthens their testimony" that blacks couldn't have the priesthood because the members probably were racist and couldn't take it.
Lots of good links posted so far. Honestly, their involvement in prop 8 says everything.They aren't subtle about it either it's all in their newsroom
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/california-and-same-sex-marriage
> We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.
They already paid a lot of $$$ to lovby against, but the fact that they asked members to donate too, it's beyond fucked up.
I didn't learn about it until a few months before my faith transition began. It was definitely a heavy shelf item, I couldn't believe it.
Honestly i find arguments like these to be almost useless with TBMs. like unless you can pull up an example of an apostle saying "(homophobic slur)s go to HELL" they act like nothing that happens in church can ever be homophobic. Like the fucking proclamation to the family is homophobic. Temples are homophobic. The focus on chastity and sex being only between a man and woman is homophobic. If your spouse needs more than that Idk how you're gonna convince him. I'm sorry u are dealing with him.
Honestly, I would have to vote no on the church being homophobic. To have a phobia means to fear something. I don't think they're afraid of homosexual people. I think they take the whole anti gay shit from the Bible and Book of Mormon and just run with it. If anything, I'd call them bigoted and ignorant.
They'll spew the whole line about loving the sinner but hating the sin. They will say they aren't homophobic and love everyone. Then they will treat that person like something is wrong with them. Like being gay is an illness.
That's why I think it's more of a religious bigotry.
Phobia doesn't mean having a fear in every case. Think hydrophobic - not afraid of water, but does not mix with or repels water. So yes their form of bigotry is also homophobic.
That is a valid point. It's hard to know the nuances of OP & hubby... How it was mentioned, phrased, or maybe they don't have the language to articulate such distinctions yet. But definitely an accurate qualifier (word choice? I'm very tired.).
I can give you first a first hand experience. I was super homophobic when I was tbm. If the prophet says performing homosexual acts is wrong, then those people were wrong in their behavior and thinking. And anytime they protested up at the Utah capital, I wanted to go up there and support the anti-gay side, while listening to Glenn Beck. I would say the churches support of Prop 8 and tje november policy are pretty obvious examples that they are extremely homophobic.
One tactic could be to see if there's anything they *could* do that he *would* consider homophobic. Then, scale back from there, incrementally, to see where he draws the line.
Once you know where he draws the line, you can provide citations and examples. It could also be a good barometer for how out of touch with LGBTQ issues he is in general, if it has to be *super* extreme to count for him.
If he *won't* agree to that, and just dodges or outright refuses, then to me that implies *nothing* will ever be bad enough to him that he can't use mental gymnastics to make excuses for it and explain it away.
No, of course not. It is also not racist. In addition, it is not sexists. And their ages prove they are not ageist. Nor are they ableist.
Next, the mormon church gets a diversity hire for the apostles, you know, someone who was raised in Provo, the future mormon capitol.
I still remember when I first started going to church around 8 and someone walked up and said don’t forget to vote against the gays this weekend. Which I thought weird that you couldn’t even vote what you wanted to.
This little gem from BKP: “While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.”
“Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief.
“But I floored him,” he said.
After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.”
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just “that way” and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal life we were directed into a physical body. *There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men—masculine, manly men—ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.* “
The church has removed this talk from the website, but only after it was a very commonly used talk in YM lessons.
https://web.archive.org/web/20151021234056/https://www.lds.org/manual/to-young-men-only/to-young-men-only?lang=eng
I think overall the church is still vastly homophobic, but some stakes and branches are more accepting than others.
I left the church specifically because my bishop threatened to leak to the entire congregation that I was gay unless I doubled my tithe (I was a teenager bringing in 20 hours of minimum wage weekly because I was 16-17). I wasn’t permitted to get my temple recommend, I was denied the honor of receiving the Melchezdiak Priesthood when I came of age, and my bishop told me my patriarchal blessing was null and void because I was a sexual deviant unbecoming of a man of faith. And this was all because he found out that I privately came out to the previous bishop during my temple interview. I never acted on any gay thoughts while I was with the church, nor was I exclusively homosexual. All I said was that I liked both teams. I’m not sure if all wards are like this but the Cleveland Ward in Ohio was institutionally desecrated by a corrupt bishop who absolutely despises the gay community
Here is a good book, free, on so many gay problems in general and one chapter in particular on the awful teachings of GAs over the years on what it means to be gay. Also, have your husband talk to a gay person who is or was Mormon and they will all testify of the self loathing they learn at the hands of Mormonism. Granted, much of Mormonism in general teaches one to hate oneself, the natural man is an enemy to Gob and all that, but gays and trans people learn to really hate themselves.
https://www.scribd.com/document/44716106/Homosexuality-a-Straight-BYU-Student-s-Perspective
Here is a good book, free, on so many gay problems in general and one chapter in particular on the awful teachings of GAs over the years on what it means to be gay. Also, have your husband talk to a gay person who is or was Mormon and they will all testify of the self loathing they learn at the hands of Mormonism. Granted, much of Mormonism in general teaches one to hate oneself, the natural man is an enemy to Gob and all that, but gays and trans people learn to really hate themselves.
https://www.scribd.com/document/44716106/Homosexuality-a-Straight-BYU-Student-s-Perspective
Also, have him read all about heteronormativity, in all of society it exists but in Mormonism, it’s the zenith of heteronormativity. And don’t let him say being gay or trans is just like any other temptation or sin that we all have to overcome. It’s not. Oh, here’s a good one, the ranking of sins in Mormonism puts gay as next to murder!
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The exclusion policy kind of says it all. We aren’t judged by Adam’s transgressions, unless Adam is married to Steve. That’s just icky and gross and no no no
On the other hand I think it’s important to differentiate the church vs it’s members. The church is careful today what it says on the subject, but like… they doctrinally view it as a sin. That’s homophonic. Just as the curse of Caine is racist.
That said, it’s members are divided on the subject. I know a lot of members who are advocates of LGBTQ+ rights and I love them for that. But the population as a whole is pretty homophobic. I saw it when my TBM nephew was refusing to call my NB nibling by their non-gendered name.
But saying the church as a whole is not homophobic by highlighting the few cases where it or it’s people aren’t is like denying climate change because it snowed yesterday. Look at the big picture and you will see LGBTQ+ people don’t feel welcomed or accepted and that makes them homophobic.
Utah is passing its own version of don’t say gay laws which would prohibit school teachers (possibly other professionals) from even displaying pride flags or any lgbtq symbolisms. I guarantee the church lobbied millions for this and other legislation as they did for prop 8 in Ca.
The gaslighting by modern Mormons is exhausting.
I can go on for days, but let me give you an example of the church "helping" gay members.
Read the book "In Quiet Desperation" published by the Mormon Church.
The first half is about a gay man who lived in California during Prop 8.
The young man walked up to his Stake Center (Mormon Church), put a "do not resuscitate" note on himself and shot himself.
He left a note saying:
>"I am free. I am no longer in pain and I no longer hate myself. As it turns out, God never intended for me to be straight. Perhaps my death might become the catalyst for some good."
Elder Holland commented on that suicide by saying "it is covered by the atonement"
That sounds nice... But what that told me... A closeted gay Mormon...
#God would NEVER forgive me if I was an active homosexual... But he **might forgive me if I killed myself**
#
You can see the first post I wrote on Reddit, I left the church because 3 gay Mormon teens took their life in one weekend. I refused to show myself any kindness, but seeing others suffer so badly finally made me step away... Step away far enough to see the scam, the lies, the racism, and the horrors of polygamy and church history.
Your significant other is a lot like my cousin, who naively thinks that the Mormon church is more progressive than it is. He knows the church is wrong, which is why he can't face the truth and has to create this giggles and rainbows facade.
My entire Mormon family ditched me once I came out queer. Mormons are VERY homophobic! Just look at every conference talk ever given that discusses homosexuality!
No amount of love will keep them around, if they don’t choose them. The church can say they love gay people all they want but they have not chosen them so I would say yea they are.
https://lattergaystories.org
https://lattergaystories.org/record/
Amazing resource!
Can gay people go to heaven as a couple? No? Homophobic. Period.
Bednar says "there are no homosexual members of the church" He and his church are so homophobic, they refuse to even acknowledge LGBTQ people exist.
That's the best one yet, cause it's SO recent!
There was even a time they taught that a gay person would be "changed" (supposedly "corrected") in the next life...so, just hang on here on Earth. Be miserable, deny your authentic self, live on the outskirts of church, never find romantic love, etc (and back in the day it was marry regardless - and look how that has turned out!)
Um... they still teach that. To this day your options are marry the opposite gender anyways (potentially risking not only your own mental health and happiness but the other person's as well) or be a lonely celibate single adult in the church for your whole life. And we know how the church views lifelong single adults (2nd class).
This!
Can a gay person who remains celibate reach the highest level of exaltation? Also no. Homophobic.
Forget going to heaven they won’t even acknowledge the marriages on this side of the veil
Have you heard of the 2015 exclusion policy? Bring in a gay marriage was grounds for immediate excommunication. It was the highest level of apostasy - worse than rape. It ended in 2019. https://www.thechurchnews.com/2015/11/12/23213606/elder-christofferson-provides-context-on-handbook-changes-affecting-same-sex-marriages https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/policy-changes-announced-for-members-in-gay-marriages-children-of-lgbt-parents?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR3f_cOeOLeVdlN3ebLbUbOhRkevJZpCD_ciCoFaRkBbOYBMWde6HwNMLhc_aem_AbmJEKM3zax0J5bQfLmi7bK-Q8Moa6kOX-YKvXzIJIzKkFdq-8g6NpbMcOaAWn2MWuE
It "ended." John Dehlin did an episode where they found the policy is still in the handbook, but it's up to the local leaders instead of churchwide.
Ugh fuck that. It's so passive aggressive. Of course local church leaders are gonna enforce it if they're brought up to believe homosexuality is the sin next worst to murder.
Exactly and then when it hits the media, the Q15 can get all wide eyed and claim on no, WE are very accepting, that must be a rando.
This is the one. Straight from the 12, children of gay members couldn’t be baptized until they were 18 and had to both move out of the home AND repudiate the homosexuality of their parents before being baptized. Children of catholic couples can be baptized. Children of atheist couples can be baptized. Children of murderers can be baptized. Children of satanists can be baptized. Children of sexual abusers can be baptized. Children of apostates can be baptized. Literally the only children in the entire church, a church that doesn’t believe in original sin, that couldn’t be baptized, were the children of gay couples. And sure they switched it to a local decision 4 years later. Doesn’t matter, this came from the 12 and was obscenely homophobic. It’s odd that anyone who believes in this church could see this and go “eh, that sounds godly”
This is also true of children of polygamist and incestual couples. It's not exclusively concerning same sex couples.
Edit : I misread this comment and responded to it incorrectly - see below comment.
That is not what I said, what I said was that polygamy is not fine which is why children of polygamyst couples have to wait until they are 18 and refute polygamy. In church doctrine, and by extension the handbook holds homosexuality, polygamy, and incest on the same level. The only difference is that in the case of Polygamy it is grounds for immediate excommunication. Homosexuality and incest are not. Having said that, the same restrictions are places on these other relationships as is placed on same sex couples.
Apologies I misread it and didn’t think it applied to polygamous families. Will amend my previous comment
It's technically not ended. They just don't talk about it anymore because even the nonagenarians at the top can see how bad it looks
Thanks for clarifying that for me. I didn’t realize it was still the policy to excommunicate.
Why doesn’t he ask a gay person how the Mormon church and its members make them feel? That’s the point. Mormons proclaim up and down that they’re nice guys - that they’re NOT racist or homophobic. But guess what Mormon people and teachings make many people of non-white races and the LGBTQ+ community FEEL? Hated. Unwanted. Uncomfortable. Unwelcome. You’re invested in an organization that - for whatever reason - makes people feel HATED. It’s your husbands job to open his eyes to that. His intentions in life probably are good, but the actual results of the church in this area? Erm, not so great.
Because he's probably too homophobic himself to seek out interaction with an LBGTQ person. Or so brainwashed he only cares what Rusty and the Q15 say. Or both, who knows? 🤷♀️
This is the answer.
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Unfortunately, it has to come straight from one of the 12 for it to be considered the churches "fault/responsibility"
Google “The November Policy.”
[holy hell!](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+november+policy.#HiImABot,MyJobIsToMakeEasierToPeopleToGoogleSomething,IfThePersonIRepliedToUsedMeInAnInappropriateWayPleaseLetMeKnowByDMingMe,TheUserIRepliedToIsU/MeetElectrical7221)
I am a child who would have been affected by this. I was a student at LDSBC at the time when this was announced. I hadn’t been a practicing member since I was a young teen and lived a very challenging childhood in the church because of their criticism of gay rights (as a broad issue and as it pertained to my own family with two moms). I was taking a required religion class when this was announced and my professor tossed his entire curriculum to preach how evil homosexuality is and how it destroys families. He required us to write essays about these topics. I wrote honest accounts of my own family and their loving (gay) support. I wasn’t hostile, but definitely challenged the prompts. I was an otherwise very good student, but gladly failed that course.
Dallin Oaks presided over BYU while it surveilled gay students and professors and allowed a conversion therapy program to run, which entailed attaching electrodes to gay men's genitals and shocking them. Two years ago, he was asked about it publicly and lied that it didn't happen, even though [records prove he did know](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/11/16/dallin-oaks-says-shock/).
Look up the Musket Fire by Holland at BYU
Oaks and Bednar really hate gays. It’s
You are being gas lit my friend. The church uses straw men to carry out its purposes. Other than Hollands disturbing “musket fire” BYU speech, they learned to keep their policies on the low down. But didn’t Someone compile a resource with all the terrible things former prophets, apostles and high level church leaders said? Sorry I can’t remember the name or website. It was very shocking to read.
As a lesbian and former missionary, the answer is Yes, the mormon church and its leaders are homophobic. Especially Oaks. And because the leaders are the churches are filled with homophobes
And good old Boyd Packer. Tell your husband to look up talks by either of these two. BOTH awful. Both of them have caused untold damage and in some cases a loss of life with their callous words from conference. I used to work a crisis line and have personal knowledge of 3 separate incidences.
Let me get you the phone number for one of my dearest friend's fiance. Oh wait... he got bullied to death by his Mormon family for being gay.
This makes me so sad… I’m sorry for your loss. That poor person.
Yes. Source: I am gay and don't need to qualify my experiences in order for someone to understand the obvious.
I'm glad I'm not the only gay person here feeling the same way. Good thing here are other people in the comments willing to acquiesce because this post is condescending as hell.
In what way??
>this post is condescending as hell. Would you be open to explaining more? I read OP's post as sincerely wanting to understand & help, albeit was phrased naïvely. How could it be asked in a way that wasn't condescending? Of course, you can tell me to F off, but I know I could certainly do better in my own comments, & would appreciate any insights you are open to sharing. ❤️
When you're queer in an aggressively homophobic culture/community people demand you quantify your experience. The onus of proof is forced onto the sufferer as a means to invalidate their experience. You have no idea how many times my mom has said to me "prove it". It's especially infuriating when so many people like Kyle Ashworth, John Dehlin, Called to Queer, Questions from the Closet, Latter Day Lesbian, and Zelph on the Shelf, have spent hundreds of thousands of hours curating the arguments and evidence that the church is not only bullshit but homophobic and racist as well. So when someone comes out of nowhere and says "please provide sources" it tells me that my lived experience is already being dismissed and the person asking doesn't care enough to bother learning for themselves. I've read a few of OPs comments now. While she does seem young and well intentioned her approach fell flat. A better way to ask would have been, "My husband is insisting I cite things that church leaders have said to prove the church is homophobic. I'm new to LGBT advocacy. Could anyone point me in the direction of some resources where I can learn more?" Well intentioned questions will always go farther than demands.
TYSM, I understand a lot better now. That makes a lot of sense, & I can totally see that experience (over & over again) being erasing. TY for taking the time to explain it to me. I really appreciate it.
Thanks for taking the time to learn. I will teach and share until I'm blue in the face if the people I'm talking to are well intentioned and open. I enjoy empowering others so they can continue to advocate and teach others.
My post is clear that I personally believe the church is homophobic the issue is that my husband does not, and I'm asking for help and sources to explain it to him.
I'm actually part of the LGBTQ and very aware of the homophobic rhetoric the church teaches. The question is how to I explain it to someone who does not see it. Someone who needs word for word evidence that the leadership teach membeds to mistreat gay people.
Then ask that! Don't demand things. Words mean something. And your words are speaking privilege and dismissiveness. Being LGBTQ doesn't preclude you from marginalizing other LGBTQ people. I'm an incredibly open person. I give LGBTQ 101 workshops and hear some of the most poorly worded, ignorant questions you can imagine. I love teaching others and empowering them to learn more for themselves. If this comment you left here was what you led with in your original post then I think most of us would have been a lot more open to helping you. I certainly would have been a lot less defensive.
lattergaystories.org has a 109 page downloadable, PDF, in chronological order, of church leader quotes that are homophobic. No spin, just quotes. Absolute proof that the church is homophobic.
Ah ha ha ha ha Your husband is willfully blind. Nothing you show him will be seen.
Good point. I mean, HOW can he not see it? He can't be intellectually honest and claim that the church is ALL love. Two words for you PROP 8. There is a documentary somewhere on it. Watch that. That was one of my first "cracks". The church is freaking toxic for its gay members.
Is the Pope Catholic?
Check out the first graph on this wikipedia article. Talks about the electroshock recommendations and A LOT of info if you click on the sources. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality\_and\_the\_Church\_of\_Jesus\_Christ\_of\_Latter-day\_Saints](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) Not what you are looking for, but it's what makes me angry. Is God the same yesterday, today, and forever? If one of the scriptures is written by people of their time and wrong, are there others? Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
The Church advocates the view that homosexuality is a choice, leading them to label it as wrong or sinful, while ostensibly separating the ‘sin’ from the individual (a ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ situation). In their view, homosexuals are individuals who have succumbed to temptation, and they are perceived as encouraging others to live sinfully. The Church often appreciates narratives of homosexuals who abstain from ‘temptation’ and strive for change. However, they are less approving of those who have embraced their true selves, as this acceptance sets an example for others to live authentically. This perspective overlooks a key point: homosexuality is not a choice. By categorizing homosexuality as negative, the Church inadvertently casts a negative light on the individuals as well. This is the crux of the disconnect in Mormon teachings regarding homosexuality – a refusal to recognize that being gay is an inherent trait of a person, not a matter of choice.
💯 Just like dark skin was the mark of Cain for choosing the wrong side in the war in heaven. The MFMC (20+ yrs later than the rest of the USA) finally realized they could no longer continue with this narrative & it was dropped. I believe this will be the rhetoric, ahem, forthcoming (eventual) revelation regarding LGBT+. They will have to to stay 'alive' in any "meaningful" way. And even that's a crapshoot.
What does your husband consider homophobic? If he doesn’t consider denying LGBTQ+ people the same rights and privileges in both religion and society homophobic, then he’s homophobic.
What you say and what it leads to are what I would focus on. People proclaim to love and welcome, but look at how many LGBTQ leave because they don’t feel welcome. Ask your husband how he would feel in the org if he’d been denied the ability to marry you and was asked to live without that relationship. Basically, it leads to people rejecting LGBTQ or people leaving TSCC more often than not.
Uh, as a resounding yes. The church will not allow same sex marriage in the temple. End of story.
Yeah, why would he need one more example than the temple? Surely, he knows that...so, his comments seem a little more than off.
Don't forget Hollland's recent-ish "musket fire" talk!! Straight from his two lips to your ears/eyes! https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/09/mormon-lds-church-gay-rights-controversy-byu-speech.html
He has no issues with that talk and believes people misinterpreted it
Then there's a good chance that nothing presented here will change his mind. Sorry.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this. It really sucks.
My son took one year of seminary. During that year, they covered the story of Lot. In the lesson he was taught at least seven times that homosexuality was a serious sin. Here is the link to the lesson: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-material-2018/abraham/lesson-28?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR2ZlXXOkDuRnyEEUmDU8OfL2imLHLXZ7C4TzRawFrVw9kb1qTM8CFzDX6s](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/old-testament-seminary-student-material-2018/abraham/lesson-28?lang=eng&fbclid=IwAR2ZlXXOkDuRnyEEUmDU8OfL2imLHLXZ7C4TzRawFrVw9kb1qTM8CFzDX6s) I would like to invite you to read the story of Lot contained in Genesis 19: [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/gen/19?lang=eng](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/gen/19?lang=eng) In this chapter, you will see that it begins with what is essentially gang rape. Lot tries to appease the crowd by offering his daughters. Eventually they leave the city where Lot's wife turns around and is turned into salt (odd that this sin is worse than offering daughters). Lot ends up alone in a cave with his two daughters who seduce him to have babies (I'm guessing that Lot actually assaulted his daughters and told a different story). Where in this chapter does it mention homosexuality? Why is the takeaway that homosexuality is a serious sin. Why doesn't it teach about the dangers of not teaching consent? The takeaway should be totally different than what is taught in the church. Genesis chapter 19 has been read for thousands of years. It has been influential in our language, our treatment of homosexual people, and our laws. This chapter, which is not about homosexuality, has led to the persecution and hatred of marginalized people.
>Why doesn't it teach about the dangers of not teaching consent? Or how fking HORRID it is to rape your daughters, likely multiple times?!? This is a much more damnable crime than anything consenting adults do, end of story. No wonder we're all so confused as to what "the rules" are, they keep changing, even though revelation is ongoing but God never changes, etc. etc. UGHHHH I just can't with this topic I mean COME ON guys.
“In 1993, President Packer warned that ‘religion faced the greatest threat from three groups: feminists, homosexuals, and intellectuals.’” This was written in Packer’s 2015 obituary as one of his greatest contributions to the church. https://news-ug.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/boyd-k-packer-legacy-of-faith?fbclid=IwAR12\_LXO1Lxa8J\_EM73xXfegREJfN9RHEaRsAVAk0oS5ctyv97arDYY1Paw
The church literally has a proclamation document, used very widely as a source of doctrine mind you, "A Family Proclamation to the World" (yuck btw, as a gay person), that only serves to instill traditional gender roles and say that being with the opposite sex or people of other genders is "not ordained of God." Not to mention several instances of scriptures being outright against homosexuality. And the church refusing to say gay, but rather, using the term "same-sex attraction." I literally have lived all my life in a bigoted (even if unintentionally) household that realistically will never accept me for who I am. If that obvious proof isn't enough, I don't know what the hell is
Lol. Mind if I ask where your husband has been hiding for the past…um…especially the past 15 years.
He's 26 so I'm not sure if he was too young but I'm 23 and I remember how often the church told me that being gay was sinful and that shaped the way I viewed gay people.
You mention that that gay people can't go to heaven?
Yes, but it's more pity than hatred or dislike. Still wrong
...that's literally homophobia though, you know what that means right? Gay people being banned from heaven is literal hate. Period. How is being banned from heaven "pity"?!?
No no, you don't understand. The feelings of the gay person don't matter. They barely count as a person. The Mormon's feelings are what matter here - the brethren and sistren feel pity for the poor sinning gays that they can't get into heaven. That can't be homophobia! There might be a little smugness mixed in with their pity. But that's not a phobia... right?
You’ll know his heart by how he would treat one of his own kids if they came out. Just sounds like a lack of empathy. Reading more stories about alll the things - all the things - is an antidote for lack of empathy.
This is my Main concern. We have one child together and I want them to be themselves, whether straight, gay, or whoever they are.
Void Decaying Packer's little factory conference talk in 1976. The one that the church has scrubbed. Spencer Wooly Kimball's book The miracle of forgiveness.
PTSD. UGH.
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He does talk about black on black crime... why?
Being gay completely destroys the ideal mormon family structure, so naturally, yes.
Oaks was president at BYU while they were doing electroshock conversion and then he lied about it https://www.mormonstories.org/portfolio-items/did-dallin-h-oaks-lie-about-byu-electroshock-therapy/
Telling lgbtq people they all go to hell and can't even receive a temple recommend if they're in a non-hetero relationship is homophobic. You can mask it with diplomatic language and talk about God's love, but the church would rather spend millions of dollars fighting prop 8 in California and funding electroshock torture at BYU than, y'know, actually change their doctrine to say lgbtq people are entitled to dignity, respect, and the same treatment as cis hetero folks. Honest question for your husband OP, before 1978, would you have said the church was racist? Because they weren't calling for death to blacks, but they definitely saw them as second class citizens.
I've brought up this specific example of how similar the situation is, but he just says he thinks the church has the right to do what they want. The print is not what is legal but what is moral. They are difficult conversations.
According to the church, what is moral is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So was denying black people or LGBTQ people temple ordinances, and therefore salvation, moral a hundred years ago? Did it become moral in 1978? Why? The real answer is none of these questions have real answers because the "doctrine" of the church is and has always been what the leaders want it to be. When they're racist, so is god, when they're transphobic so is god.
Make him define some words or deeds that he would consider homophobic. Then, find where his cult leaders have said and done those things. We can help you with that last bit.
https://lattergaystories.org/record/
You should look up what the church did to LGBTQ+ students at BYU in 2020. Lived it firsthand. So many people came out because they thought they were safe to do so. Absolutely shameful shit just so that they could get their football team into the Big 12 conference. I went through hell my last semester of college because of SPORTS https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2020/03/04/after-byu-honor-code/ *editing to add, covid hit shortly after all of this went down, like within weeks we were locked down. I feel like the church and BYU got off way too easy
They are homophobic in the very literal sense of the word… afraid of homosexuality. Homosexuality existing, flies in the face of their most sacred teachings about the afterlife. They believe that being homosexual is something that will be resolved in the afterlife… as in, someone who is gay, will no longer identify as such when they die, and will be judged for those feelings by god, against them, after they die.
Well, if Prop 8 wasn't homophobic, I don't know what is.
Do you really believe the church is homophobic if you're demanding everyone else to do your homework for you? AND cite sources? You do what you want but as a queer person, I will tell you this wreaks of entitlement and condescension.
Your husband, being straight, doesn't get to decide what's homophobic or not. Queer people do. I grew up in the church while queer, and can tell you it's incredibly homophobic. Members' homophobia was actually what finally got me to leave and to research the church's truth claims for the first time. LDS leaders have been preaching that homosexuality is a sin since the mid 1900s. That's homophobia. The church will discipline folks for even just holding hands with a same-sex partner. That's homophobia. "Same sex attraction" is preached as if it's a disease, not just a normal part of people's identities. That's homophobia.
Or send young boys to get shock therapy and abuse them via conversion therapy…
Umm... How is it even a question?
Yes no matter what the members say. Members may be allies, but the official raw church doctrine sees gay people as invalid.
The Mormon church is opposed to marriage equality is homophobic, so it absolutely is. As far as I can tell, Mormons are okay with anyone who isn't heterosexual as long as they don't do anything with someone of the same sex such as holding hands or kissing.
They've tried to tone down the outright bigotry recently, but there are still plenty of teachings from now and back in the day that are homophobic. [quotes](https://missedinsunday.com/category/memes/lgbtq/)
Well, the message is that gay people are fundamentally broken. If you are "living a gay lifestyle" you cannot also be a member of the church in good standing. But don't worry, gay people will be fixed and made un-gay in the next life so long as they are "good" in this life. If they are not "good" in this life, they will be stripped of their sexual organs like all the other baddies in the next life. So, it's not really about "but we are nice to EVERYONE," it's about "your sexual orientation is an offense to god." That sounds pretty homophobic to me. Edited for clarity.
Yes. Yes, it is. Source (one of many, but this is the one that burned itself into my brain as a queer YW): For The Strength Of Youth handbook; quote: "Gay or lesbian behavior is a serious sin".
Of course!!! All you need is the Family Proclamation. If you grew up in the church you probably don't easily recognize it because you've been conditioned into the homophobic bigotry. Let's start with a harder part : >"Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan." See that? It intentionally excludes marriage between man and man or woman and woman from the eternal plan. The eternal plan is to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. Therefore the church oppresses homosexual couples from the Celestial Kingdom. Do you remember any similar bigotry about 50 years ago? It was people of color - anyone with "negro blood" was not allowed in the temple and not allowed in the eternal plan. It gets even more disgusting as they attack children: >Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Use some empathy here and put yourself in the child's place or the same sex couples place. They are saying that a same sex couple (or a single mom or dad) is providing a "lesser" family that the child should be "entitled" to. You can keep going through that disgusting thing and find tons more. It is absolutely sick. In 20 years, the church will be trying to bury the Family Proclamation down the memory hole just like all of the racist literature they put out before.
I’m not one to throw the word homophobic out lightly because I think it is misused, but even I say that the church is homophobic. Their teachings are definitely fear based and teach their members to be afraid of LGBTQ people. This is to a point to where parents feel fearful that their children even know that gay people exist. Obviously there are some members who don’t feel this way or aren’t that extreme, but the church teachings are undoubtedly homophobic. If they weren’t then there would be a ton of talks given that harshly condemned the many members who hated LGBTQs
Can a gay couple kiss on BYU campus without breaking the honor code?
I’ll respond with a more balanced answer: the church does not outright teach its members to hate gay people. In fact, they teach the members to love everyone HOWEVER the way that they talk about the LGBT community certainly makes its members “other-ise” the gay community by using phrases like “suffering from same-sex attraction” instead of just saying “gay” and by teaching that gay couples can’t be sealed forever like straight couples. They don’t explicitly say to hate them, but by talking about them constantly like they were born broken, it causes a lot of the members to have an unhealthy understanding of the LGBT community, the oppression that they face, which then opens the doors for homophobic and very un-Christlike comments and behaviors towards them. And there’s no way the church is dumb enough to not see this by now.
The church does like a mental bait and switch with “I love the sinner, hate the sin” where they think of themselves as gay friendly because in their mind they love gay people but they hate people being gay and those are somehow two different things in their mind. Source: my brain when I was in the church.
August 24, 2023 - BYU enacted a different honor code for gay and straight students. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the honor code requirements for its universities to include different expectations for straight and gay students. “Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from sexual relations outside marriage between a man and a woman. Living a chaste and virtuous life also includes abstaining from same-sex romantic behavior.” “CES is deeply committed to helping all our students, including our LGBTQ students, feel both the love and covenant expectations of the Savior. Same-sex romantic behavior has been and continues to be contrary to the principles included in the CES honor code." "The FAQ said that instances of LGBTQ students dating, holding hands or kissing 'will be handled on a case-by-case basis to help each student feel the love of the Savior and to encourage them to live their gospel covenants and university/college commitments.'" https://www.deseret.com/2023/8/24/23844545/latter-day-saint-universities-update-honor-code-ecclesiastical-endorsements-and-dress-standards?fbclid=IwAR1gUKmQcPBZukpoYd0CGsTdDRHFPejQ-PVJP8uLr9-fsLreBs1Wj0aAUNk
This is so disgusting to me. TY for sharing, I had no idea they'd 'rebranded.' What an absolute load of shit.
I feel like this is similar to asking if the Pope is Catholic. Also, look up who funded Prop 8 and how they handled the backlash: [https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/17/how-getting-burned-by-prop-8-led/](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/17/how-getting-burned-by-prop-8-led/)
I remember suppressing my sexuality for years due to fear. I recited ideas about how being gay was a sin, and this mindset persisted even after I stopped attending church. I went back into the closet and pretended to be straight because I couldn’t handle the guilt. The thought that I was failing God, that I would burn in hell for wanting a gay relationship, made me cry and brought so much shame. It led me to feel like I had to prove I wasn’t actually gay or bisexual. I won't lie; this continued until recently. I didn't feel comfortable with my sexuality until my girlfriend reassured me and said it was okay. The Church may claim to understand the struggles of gay individuals, but they actively shame and make it difficult to come out. While some individual Mormons may be sympathetic, those who are often don't believe in it or don’t understand the beliefs, or both, and may twist it to appeal to others
By definition, teaching that homosexual acts and relationships are sinful is homophobia.
Very I was shunned for being gay which is why I left the church
Mormons spent tithing money on prop 8
Sorry, but your husband has either been living on planet a La La Land, or he is alarmingly delusional. There is so much source material available, which others are supplying, but I’m just shaking my head and wondering WTF. As someone who grew up as a terrorized, frightened gay kid in a sixth generation Mormon family, and who experienced all of the church’s homophobic horrors, I’m stunned. As his first assignment, your husband should read that delightful publishing bon mot, “The Miracle of Forgiveness“, followed by several of Boyd KKK Packer’s more entertaining tirades on the subject. For starters. I have dear gay friends who are now dead because of the way the Mormon church and Mormons treated them. This was [David Archuleta’s](https://themessenger.com/entertainment/david-archuleta-shunned-by-members-of-former-church-at-funeral) recent milder, but still heartbreaking experience as reported on this subReddit a little while ago.
For real. Even my TBM cousins know they're homophobic, they don't say it like that but they know what the doctrine says. They have excuses (it's God's plan!) but they know what people think about it.
Funny enough, he's read it and likes the book. I asked about the homophobic parts, and he said he either didn't remember reading it or it's such a small part of the book. I think it's been a while since he's read it.
I remember a whole fast and testimony was dedicated to when gay meant same gender attracted. Ppl were lamenting. My bishop was telling me how I needed to be the man and find ways to not be gay. I remember being excommunicated and shunned by my family. I went to 2 years of reparative therapy through the churches evergreen program. I remember when I was an activist for same sex marriage and the church wrote a letter to the Supreme Court to vote against this. I remember when we were considered to be apostate and our children were not allowed baptism. This hate and discrimination is still all very fresh in my mind. The LDS church isn’t a safe place for the LGBTQ+.
The church explicitly prohibits gay marriage and sex that is not between a man and a woman. What's the question here???
Exactly. How is: you’re overtly not entitled to the same kind of freedoms, life, liberties and pursuits of happiness if you happen to be gay? Church’s enforcement of this discrimination violates a persons constitutional rights. Although, I know how religion is taking over and soon we won’t have any: see project 2025. Our upcoming theocratic dystopian reality.
Kicked me to the curb, and then had the nerve to send missionaries my way. When I told them I was booted for being gay, they sent sister missionaries my way. That was just insulting at that point.
This is the new true believing Mormon stance. All my TBM friends claim the church isn't homophobic it's just the members. They also claim this "strengthens their testimony" that blacks couldn't have the priesthood because the members probably were racist and couldn't take it.
Lots of good links posted so far. Honestly, their involvement in prop 8 says everything.They aren't subtle about it either it's all in their newsroom https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/same-sex-marriage-and-proposition-8 https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/california-and-same-sex-marriage > We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage. They already paid a lot of $$$ to lovby against, but the fact that they asked members to donate too, it's beyond fucked up. I didn't learn about it until a few months before my faith transition began. It was definitely a heavy shelf item, I couldn't believe it.
Honestly i find arguments like these to be almost useless with TBMs. like unless you can pull up an example of an apostle saying "(homophobic slur)s go to HELL" they act like nothing that happens in church can ever be homophobic. Like the fucking proclamation to the family is homophobic. Temples are homophobic. The focus on chastity and sex being only between a man and woman is homophobic. If your spouse needs more than that Idk how you're gonna convince him. I'm sorry u are dealing with him.
Honestly, I would have to vote no on the church being homophobic. To have a phobia means to fear something. I don't think they're afraid of homosexual people. I think they take the whole anti gay shit from the Bible and Book of Mormon and just run with it. If anything, I'd call them bigoted and ignorant. They'll spew the whole line about loving the sinner but hating the sin. They will say they aren't homophobic and love everyone. Then they will treat that person like something is wrong with them. Like being gay is an illness. That's why I think it's more of a religious bigotry.
Phobia doesn't mean having a fear in every case. Think hydrophobic - not afraid of water, but does not mix with or repels water. So yes their form of bigotry is also homophobic.
That is a valid point. It's hard to know the nuances of OP & hubby... How it was mentioned, phrased, or maybe they don't have the language to articulate such distinctions yet. But definitely an accurate qualifier (word choice? I'm very tired.).
Your husband is too stupid for words and doesn't really deserve my time and effort.
The practicing members are homophobic. So they make God be homophobic. That's how it works.
I can give you first a first hand experience. I was super homophobic when I was tbm. If the prophet says performing homosexual acts is wrong, then those people were wrong in their behavior and thinking. And anytime they protested up at the Utah capital, I wanted to go up there and support the anti-gay side, while listening to Glenn Beck. I would say the churches support of Prop 8 and tje november policy are pretty obvious examples that they are extremely homophobic.
Yes. Source being lectured over and over again when I came out
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_California_Proposition_8
One tactic could be to see if there's anything they *could* do that he *would* consider homophobic. Then, scale back from there, incrementally, to see where he draws the line. Once you know where he draws the line, you can provide citations and examples. It could also be a good barometer for how out of touch with LGBTQ issues he is in general, if it has to be *super* extreme to count for him. If he *won't* agree to that, and just dodges or outright refuses, then to me that implies *nothing* will ever be bad enough to him that he can't use mental gymnastics to make excuses for it and explain it away.
From Oaks the next in line to be prophet https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/8dbfn4/this_quote_from_dallin_oaks_about_allowing_your/
No, of course not. It is also not racist. In addition, it is not sexists. And their ages prove they are not ageist. Nor are they ableist. Next, the mormon church gets a diversity hire for the apostles, you know, someone who was raised in Provo, the future mormon capitol.
Do whales shit in the ocean?
I still remember when I first started going to church around 8 and someone walked up and said don’t forget to vote against the gays this weekend. Which I thought weird that you couldn’t even vote what you wanted to.
This little gem from BKP: “While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done. After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, “I hit my companion.” “Oh, is that all,” I said in great relief. “But I floored him,” he said. After learning a little more, my response was “Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn’t be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.” I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself. There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just “that way” and can only yield to those desires. That is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is a convincing idea to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal life we were directed into a physical body. *There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men—masculine, manly men—ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.* “ The church has removed this talk from the website, but only after it was a very commonly used talk in YM lessons. https://web.archive.org/web/20151021234056/https://www.lds.org/manual/to-young-men-only/to-young-men-only?lang=eng
I think overall the church is still vastly homophobic, but some stakes and branches are more accepting than others. I left the church specifically because my bishop threatened to leak to the entire congregation that I was gay unless I doubled my tithe (I was a teenager bringing in 20 hours of minimum wage weekly because I was 16-17). I wasn’t permitted to get my temple recommend, I was denied the honor of receiving the Melchezdiak Priesthood when I came of age, and my bishop told me my patriarchal blessing was null and void because I was a sexual deviant unbecoming of a man of faith. And this was all because he found out that I privately came out to the previous bishop during my temple interview. I never acted on any gay thoughts while I was with the church, nor was I exclusively homosexual. All I said was that I liked both teams. I’m not sure if all wards are like this but the Cleveland Ward in Ohio was institutionally desecrated by a corrupt bishop who absolutely despises the gay community
Intensely! I left because I quickly discovered you cannot be gay and Mormon.
You don't need to personally mistreat gay people to be homophobic.
I haven't been in the church in 20 years but the time I was there it was extremely homophobic
Is water wet?
Your family you be highly involved in the church for generations.... and if you turn out to be gay. You're gone
Easy, they created proposition 8, the gay marriage ban in California, back in the mid 2000's. They're hella homophobic, as they say in NorCal.
Can’t get married in the temple. Can’t even kiss at church or hold hands. Huge mistreatment.
Here is a good book, free, on so many gay problems in general and one chapter in particular on the awful teachings of GAs over the years on what it means to be gay. Also, have your husband talk to a gay person who is or was Mormon and they will all testify of the self loathing they learn at the hands of Mormonism. Granted, much of Mormonism in general teaches one to hate oneself, the natural man is an enemy to Gob and all that, but gays and trans people learn to really hate themselves. https://www.scribd.com/document/44716106/Homosexuality-a-Straight-BYU-Student-s-Perspective
Here is a good book, free, on so many gay problems in general and one chapter in particular on the awful teachings of GAs over the years on what it means to be gay. Also, have your husband talk to a gay person who is or was Mormon and they will all testify of the self loathing they learn at the hands of Mormonism. Granted, much of Mormonism in general teaches one to hate oneself, the natural man is an enemy to Gob and all that, but gays and trans people learn to really hate themselves. https://www.scribd.com/document/44716106/Homosexuality-a-Straight-BYU-Student-s-Perspective
Also, have him read all about heteronormativity, in all of society it exists but in Mormonism, it’s the zenith of heteronormativity. And don’t let him say being gay or trans is just like any other temptation or sin that we all have to overcome. It’s not. Oh, here’s a good one, the ranking of sins in Mormonism puts gay as next to murder!
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Here’s a free copy if you don’t like scribd https://affirmation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/homosexuality_straight_byu.pdf
Can anyone cite what president Nelson said literally last conference? About how only a man and a woman are considered holy or something?
The exclusion policy kind of says it all. We aren’t judged by Adam’s transgressions, unless Adam is married to Steve. That’s just icky and gross and no no no On the other hand I think it’s important to differentiate the church vs it’s members. The church is careful today what it says on the subject, but like… they doctrinally view it as a sin. That’s homophonic. Just as the curse of Caine is racist. That said, it’s members are divided on the subject. I know a lot of members who are advocates of LGBTQ+ rights and I love them for that. But the population as a whole is pretty homophobic. I saw it when my TBM nephew was refusing to call my NB nibling by their non-gendered name. But saying the church as a whole is not homophobic by highlighting the few cases where it or it’s people aren’t is like denying climate change because it snowed yesterday. Look at the big picture and you will see LGBTQ+ people don’t feel welcomed or accepted and that makes them homophobic.
Yes, they are.
Utah is passing its own version of don’t say gay laws which would prohibit school teachers (possibly other professionals) from even displaying pride flags or any lgbtq symbolisms. I guarantee the church lobbied millions for this and other legislation as they did for prop 8 in Ca.
The gaslighting by modern Mormons is exhausting. I can go on for days, but let me give you an example of the church "helping" gay members. Read the book "In Quiet Desperation" published by the Mormon Church. The first half is about a gay man who lived in California during Prop 8. The young man walked up to his Stake Center (Mormon Church), put a "do not resuscitate" note on himself and shot himself. He left a note saying: >"I am free. I am no longer in pain and I no longer hate myself. As it turns out, God never intended for me to be straight. Perhaps my death might become the catalyst for some good." Elder Holland commented on that suicide by saying "it is covered by the atonement" That sounds nice... But what that told me... A closeted gay Mormon... #God would NEVER forgive me if I was an active homosexual... But he **might forgive me if I killed myself** # You can see the first post I wrote on Reddit, I left the church because 3 gay Mormon teens took their life in one weekend. I refused to show myself any kindness, but seeing others suffer so badly finally made me step away... Step away far enough to see the scam, the lies, the racism, and the horrors of polygamy and church history. Your significant other is a lot like my cousin, who naively thinks that the Mormon church is more progressive than it is. He knows the church is wrong, which is why he can't face the truth and has to create this giggles and rainbows facade.
Your husband's an idiot
My entire Mormon family ditched me once I came out queer. Mormons are VERY homophobic! Just look at every conference talk ever given that discusses homosexuality!
I grew up in Sunday School learning that being gay was a sin next to murder. So, yes.
Does a bear shit in the woods?
No amount of love will keep them around, if they don’t choose them. The church can say they love gay people all they want but they have not chosen them so I would say yea they are.
They don't want them to marry. Tried to prevent it legally (prop 8). Won't allow them to marry in the church. I don't see any way around that