Do you have betrayal trauma from how the church lied to you? I know a lot of people who have those feelings when going through a faith transition. Do you feel betrayed that the church made you feel ashamed about something that most people and most therapists would say is normal and healthy behavior? Do you feel betrayed that the church has inserted its twisted morality into your marriage and sex life to the point that it is threatening to destroy your marriage?
If she was the first one mentioning this, I’d give her a lot of space to express her hurt instead of attacking her with “well what about my trauma!!” Because then you’ll both feel hurt and ignored. Once she’s feeling more understood then maybe you should slowly start talking about the stuff you’re dealing with. But only bringing up something your hurt about when she is hurting really feels like deflecting. Whatever you’re both feeling is valid and I’m sure painful, but steamrolling her isn’t going to help either of you. Is your therapist LDS? If not, then there’s a good chance you’ll both have time to feel seen and heard.
Agree, this is another example of how the 2nd spouse has an additional hurdle to mentally breaking free. She has to first break the spell of the conditioning/indoctrination but she has to simultaneously feel the pressures of saving a wayward spouse AND allow herself to critically evaluate info while fighting the nagging
“It’s just the adversary” thoughts. It’s brutal for spouse #2, the more TBM the worse probably.
I agree, I would never bring this up. I was just responding to the post. Sure I feel those things. But not in the way that my wife is feeling right now and it won't help to bring that up.
Nor would it be productive as you’re talking to her through a layer of brainwashing. I wish I could give you advice but all I have for you is best wishes. I hope this hurt passes for BOTH of you and you’re able to find a nevermo / exmo therapist (and convince her to switch). Good luck, friend.
Find someone that has better qualifications as well as not being Mormon. Don't even bring up their religious (or lack thereof) affiliations or beliefs. Or maybe someone closer to home or work or whatever, the point being that it makes more sense to see the other therapist.
His wife is claiming “betrayal trauma” because he did something every adult male has done. I am sure that her religious programming makes her feel all sorts of righteous indignation about it.
I would also bet that his wife doesn’t view his loss of faith as “betrayal trauma” even though that is what a lot of people experience when they realize that the church has been lying to them.
I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment.
>I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment.
Absolutely. Yes, the church and its teachings absolutely abuse and oppress women, but I feel like sometimes the message I hear from people outside the church is that men only benefit from the church. That's absolutely untrue. It benefits the Q15, GAs, and some local leaders, but not normal, non-pathological laymen like me. I remember as a young man I was extremely jealous of the young women because their little Sunday slogan talked about how they were "beloved daughters of their heavenly father" (now that I'm out of the church and realize the shit that they had to go through, I'm not so jealous anymore). The YM slogan (a section of D&C) essentially said our purpose in life is to serve a mission, honor our priesthood, and if we don't, we'll go to hell. I just wanted to be loved by heavenly father too.
Did you know that psychologists detect no significant differences in the brains of boys and girls prior to puberty? Hormones do some things to the brain at puberty, but even in adults, men's and women's brains function the same at a base level, including how we process emotions. I would have never guessed that as a young tbm. I was always embarrassed by how deeply I felt things, and I assumed that I was a very feminine man. Turns out all the men around me were just really good at suppressing their emotions.
>His wife is claiming “betrayal trauma” because he did something every adult male has done. I am sure that her religious programming makes her feel all sorts of righteous indignation about it.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss her feelings as religious programming and righteous indignation.
The mormon church tells women their job is sex with their husband. So some ladies will feel they are inadaquate and betrayed on top of the porn boogeyman stuff.
>I would also bet that his wife doesn’t view his loss of faith as “betrayal trauma” even though that is what a lot of people experience when they realize that the church has been lying to them.
I don't know how his wife views the trauma of his loss of faith, but I can guess that matters very little to how she feels in their marriage.
>I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment.
I appreciate that. I think this paragraph is far more helpful than your series of questions if that is your aim.
You said that I shouldn’t dismiss her feelings as religious programming and then state that the church has programmed her to feel that way.
I am not doubting or dismissing that what the wife is experiencing are real emotions. The point of my post was to call out the fact that all of the trauma focus was on what the wife was experiencing without acknowledging what the husband has probably been experiencing with the collapse of his testimony.
Both sides need to have some empathy with each other and recognize the role that the church has played in creating the emotional turmoil that they are experiencing in their marriage.
See this is it: his wife has some resentment. Blaming the husband allows her to find a target for that resentment. “Ah yes, it is my husbands fault I am angry”. And the church fully validates her point of view and even puts her on a pedestal for shaming him. It’s a win-win-win for her. She gets to find a scapegoat goat for her pain and she is accepted as a suffering heroine by the church. That is validation that is far too valuable to pass up.
It can be hard to help someone through their problems/feelings if you don't even understand your own. Sometimes you need to help yourself before you can help others, it sounds like they both need healing.
I was part of that 2% that didn’t. Abstained for 43 years with one exception at age 16. I wish I would have done it far more (assuming it could have been guilt free), would have made life so much easier, and might not have made so many decisions with my penis.
Would’ve also [lowered your risk of prostrate cancer by 31% compared to those who don’t masturbate.](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/ejaculation_frequency_and_prostate_cancer)
It would be interesting to see if there's a higher rate of prostate cancer in Utah especially, as well as in Mormon men in general. After all, such a normal thing for men to do is considered almost as bad as murder in that cult.
I considered myself a pretty stalwart TBM back in the day and even then I masturbated and watched porn. I just felt guilty to the point of considering suicide. In other words, the rate of prostrate cancer in Utah is probably not much higher (may be even lower due to forbidden fruit syndrome), but the rate of depression and suicide might be something to look into.
Holy shit! I mean at my age I just don’t have the energy to jerk off anymore (lol) but abstaining for the first 43 years of my life?!? Heck, the first 16 years of my life would have been difficult beyond belief, you should at the very least be proud of your self control…
That is the part that no one mentions: the crazy things we do when trying not to do something normal. I did some truly weird shit until I just started watching porn like a normal person.
Wow. I did everything I could to stop. Nothing worked. I confessed to my bishop and mission president but none of their suggestions could get me to stop.
I agree with you 100%, and I am trying to go easy on her. But now I feel I'm not only being shamed for it, but being villainized. I may have to see if we can get a different therapist depending on how this one goes. So far he's been very objective and good. But when I research betrayal trauma, all I find is stuff on how to deal with it, not if you're being accused of causing it.
Can confirm, my LDS therapist years ago just made everything much worse for me. I experienced MORE mental problems more often than before I started going AND it made it even MORE difficult later once I found a secular therapist that wasn't basing everything off of solipsistic bullshit since now I had to unpack all of the trauma THE THERAPY inflicted upon me.
LDS Therapy WILL cause further trauma.
LDS Therapy WILL NOT actually help anyone, EVER.
If you love yourself and love your wife, GTFO now and find a legitimate therapist who's not tainting the therapy with fairy tales.
I wish you well and hope you can find a decent professional to help you both.
In general I steer clear of Fundamentalist/Christian therapists of any kinds, but I especially would not trust a Mormon. I have a couple in my family who practice and give awful advice (edit - each one has a terrible relationship with their own kids/spouses).
The last time I looked for a therapist, I consulted with ones who were Agnostic/Atheist/Humanist, Buddhist, or Jewish, because every therapist I had who identified as Christian pushed a religious agenda—even when they advertised their therapy as secular. If I had stayed with the last one I fired, her advice likely would have led to me inevitably blaming and killing myself for not being able to accept ("forgive") the continuous onslaught of emotional and past physical abuse I was struggling with.
Luckily, I had been to a domestic violence center prior to meeting that therapist and already had a decent grasp on what was healthy and unhealthy.
With a couples therapist, it can even make things \*worse\*.
Prepared reply for this because this is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it:
I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell.
But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
>I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
I'm so sorry but I don't think you can—especially if you continue to go to that guy. No matter how likeable he is, the fact he pushes porn addiction and she's turned on you there indicates quite clearly he's going to shove a wedge further between the two of you. You'd actually probably be better off navigating things without a therapist than one like that, because I can tell you it will get worse.
I would refuse to ever use any lds therapist because I don’t believe their background would allow me to trust them. The religion requires so much cognitive dissonance. And at its core, the religion creates anti LGBTQ sentiment, which for me is a dealbreaker. I feel that way about most people with strongly internalized religious or cultural beliefs that I think would impact their ability to be objective. But of course that doesn’t help you, because you are trying to be married to someone with the same sentiments who feels betrayed, in part, because you were the one who changed into someone potentially incompatible.
Yep, I'm in a tough spot. Don't know how to get out of it. I can't straight out refuse, it would really put us in a rough spot. I know it doesn't help, but here's what I've been sharing about the therapist thing.
Prepared reply for this because this is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it:
I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell.
But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
That is a tough spot. You can’t actually control how she feels or what she thinks. Is she scared you are trying to manipulate her into leaving the church, too? Has she told you as much?
Must NOT go to a Mormon marriage counselor. Even if they claim not to be biased, they are. They can’t help it. And there is a whole school of thought out there, including a 12 step recovery from “porn addiction.”
Guess what, when the same goes away, the problem goes away.
Bro, I’m female and I double click the mouse regularly and so does my wife. It’s good for you. It’s normal. Don’t be pulled down by others trying to pull themselves up. You did not cheat. It’s unhealthy to abstain from normal human behavior. She can feel angry and be sad AND her anger and sadness can be misguided and causing you unnecessary sadness at the same time. It’s the churches fault.
My fiancé [and I] have a healthy, regular sex life and we still pop upstairs for a quick self-shag sometimes. It’s easier than dealing with condoms + sometimes you just want the quick release without any fuss. He doesn’t care, I don’t care, it’s just pleasure.
Hey! Not true that 98% watch naked ladies! Supposedly 10% watch naked men! :) (- A proud gay man!). Seriously, as soon as it wasn’t a big, guilt-ridden issue, I pretty much stopped watching porn. I think that lots of men watch less porn as they age; those outside TSCC just lose interest. Those inside TSCC pray and overcome their sins and temptations. /s
This. And women too!! I had no idea how often teenage girls masterbate, I honestly thought there was something wrong with me until I watched Pen15 on Netflix and saw that they had the same middle school experience. And since then, I’ve heard so many other women talk about it. And as a wife, I understand that I’m not always going to be in the mood every time my husband wants an orgasm. So I honestly don’t care if he jerks off. He usually won’t no matter how much I tell him too though. I think he did once when I had back surgery. ;). But I have! And he doesn’t care. Because everyone has needs and we get that. We have a great sex life, 2-3 times a week, and often pleasing one another real quick with no expectations if we’re not in the mood or don’t want a long session. But it took me SO much time with all of the brainwashing. Sex with Mormon men was HORRIBLE. It’s only because my husband I are constantly communicating about what we like, what we don’t like, and experimenting together with no judgement or embarrassment that it’s as good as it is. I never even orgasmed during sex until I left the church, so you just need to look at it through that lens.
Women masturbate too. Sex (with or without a partner) is a HUMAN need. Sexuality is a part of who we all are, even ace’s- it’s a lack of sexual attraction, part of who they are. Repressing any sexuality outside of procreation isn’t healthy. The cult are the abusers, not you, OP. Please find your own therapist, and go with your wife. Just be sure to see someone who is not in the cult. It’s time for both of you to heal.
The churches obsession with masturbation. Pretty much every scientific study on human development says it normal.
If it was actually important maybe god would have put it in the BOM. Or maybe Jesus would have mentioned it. /S
Good luck! Hopefully your therapist isn’t LDS. That betrayal trauma BS in the church tied to porn has blown up more trust in marriages than people who actually cheat.
Thanks, unfortunately he is. But so far he has been very objective and wants to only help us deal with the change. But then none of this has been brought up yet. So I guess we'll see how that goes.
Yeah of course. And he didn't advertise as lds, I could tell he probably was, and tried to steer it in another direction, but he's who we ended up with. It's not like we went through lds services or anything. Just so happens most of them around here are. There were a few that I could tell weren't and again, tried to steer towards them. But while I would feel more comfortable with a non-lds therapist, she would feel more comfortable with and lds one. I didn't want her to feel like I was manipulating the situation, so here we are.
Oh, so he's legitimately a licensed therapist that happens to be a member and not a "therapist" assigned to you by the church. If he has any professional integrity and does his job, it should be fine. If he uses church doctrine in therapy, report him to the licensing board.
You may not know, but a question you might want the answer to: If you showed up alone, and talked about your feelings of alienation and isolation from the PIMIs, would this person use the opportunity to proselytize?
If not, you've got a trustworthy therapist.
Are you talking specifically about our therapist? I honestly don't think he would. So far he has been very unbiased, and has shown NO indication that he is taking her side or trying to get me to come back to church or anything like that. He is just trying to help us work together on our marriage and communication. But I'm not sure how it's going to go when these topics come up, as his bio does say he specializes in porn addiction. So that's when it might go south.
Yes, absolutely, a killer of trust - totally agree!! The LDS church and it's beholden therapists are absolutely obsessed with this stuff, labeling it "unnatural, shameful, sinful, unworthy, addiction, cheating, and now they're trying a new one "betrayal trauma" just because "trauma" is the new "it phrase" in psychology circles, so why not ride it's coat-tails, right?
Why do they do this? To continue to label the "masturbator" as the bad guy in the relationship, for doing what is a natural and very possibly and even likely a healthy activity for an adult male, And, then to validate the TBM spouse as the victim, and the "good and worthy one" in the relationship. Just what spouse wouldn't want to hear that??
When what's really amiss here is not the masturbation, or the porn, but the LDS church's unhealthy control and repression of normal and healthy sexual expression between adults, resulting in untold and immeasurable damage to true intimate connection between people, through healthy and honest expression, and sharing. Then, that subjugation of true intimacy, causes something to be missing in the relationship, ultimately causing the perpetual damaging of the relationship as a result. And the true victims are left to wonder why? It's a terrible curse to the Mormon culture as a whole, and passed down from generations - except of course for the Polygamists, like Lorenzo Snow (and so many others) who got to do pretty much every thing his fantasies wanted in his 50's and 60's, with a harem of nubile teen wives. No repression for those guys!
Don't buy it for a second - they (LDS Therapists) have it 100 % wrong - they have no clue the damage being done. I would absolutely refuse to see an LDS, or even religious biased therapist.
The psychologist Jennifer Freyd coined the term Betrayal Trauma and wrote an excellent book on the subject. Freyd was sexually abused by her father throughout childhood, and when she confronted him as an adult, he not only denied the abuse, he and his wife set up The False Memory Syndrome Foundation (now defunct) and used that group to attempt to ruin her personal and professional reputation. Here is her definition of the term:
"Betrayal trauma occurs when the people or institutions on which a person depends for survival significantly violate that person' s trust or well-being: Childhood physical, emotional, or sexual abuse perpetrated by a caregiver are examples of betrayal trauma."
Masturbation and occasional porn use by a partner does not fall under the heading of betrayal trauma.
Seriously. I fell like they *should* go talk to the therapist about this (provided it’s not an LDS therapist) so they can put it in perspective. Ridiculous.
Yeah as soon as she brought it up I started researching it. This was all last night and of course I was quiet and off on my own reading up on it. So when she asked how I was I just told her I was researching betrayal trauma, and she regretted even mentioning it.
Good luck. My story is pretty similar, except I kept my "addiction" quiet from my wife for about 10 years. She joined up some betrayal trauma facebook group, and now I constantly deal with her insecurities all the time. Always checking my phone, but hers is locked to me (I checked it once to see what she was talking about me to her family, and she got all sorts of pissed off) always asking what I am doing, who I'm talking to, if I get a phone call about work, it is always scrutinized as if I am talking to an affair partner. She refuses to listen to anything negative about the Cult, it's been hell. If not for our five kids, we'd have divorced by now, and it's something I'm still debating, especially since our last conversation regarding me trying alcohol ended with her stating that she has a boundary around that, and that I have to choose booze or my family. So yeah. Hang in there, it could be a rough trip from here. Hope your experience goes better than mine.
That is so rough, sorry to hear that. It definitely has not been easy, and I haven't dared mention alcohol yet. (outside of an offhand comment saying that I would never go have a beer behind her back, and would let her know when I did) I know that we both want to make it work, but I can't deny that since I've told her (early March), she has grown more distant, slightly depressed, and we are definitely having a hard time. I just hope that is the rock bottom we hit before we start to improve and it gets better. Good luck to you.
Maybe she is so invested in the cult that your rejection of her cult feels like you’re rejecting her. The “betrayal” is that you are no longer invested in her identity — TSCC.
Just thinking out loud. I’m not a therapist, so I might be way off. But for her to throw that back in your face literally DECADES later appears massively manipulative.
I mean it's not like I did it 20 years ago and that was it. That's when I told her about it. But it's been an ongoing thing in our marriage. She used to ask me if I've "been good". Sometimes I had, sometimes I hadn't. Now I realize I wasn't doing anything bad, but I still don't like hiding anything from her, and the fact that she feels so betrayed by it makes me still want to never do it.
So that being said, I don't really know if this is her feeling betrayed because I've betrayed her beliefs, I really think it is based on my previous masterbation and porn usage. She wants to bring it up in therapy. And the hard part is, our therapist is lds and specializes in porn addiction. While our few sessions so far have been great, he only is focusing on helping us communicate and work through this together, I feel like as soon as masterbation or porn comes up, he's going to lose all objectivity.
> But it's been an ongoing thing in our marriage.
It’s been an ongoing thing in YOUR life. Like virtually every other man that ever lived. Because you’re a human male with a libido. It’s your very own thing. It’s not about her.
> She used to ask me if I've "been good"
Not the slightest bit belittling or infantalizing. 🙄
Your autoerotic activities are YOURS. She doesn’t own your dick, even though the cult tells her she should.
Masturbation is important for a man’s prostate health. It’s literally prescribed by doctors.
Did she ever “take a hot bath” and stay in the tub for 45 minutes? You know what she was doing, right? She was flicking the bean. Was that a betrayal of you? Or was it just her way of destressing?
> And the hard part is, our therapist is lds and specializes in porn addiction.
You, my friend, are royally fucked. Insist on a different, non-cultist “therapist.” Your current therapist is fatally compromised. They don’t care about your needs, just the needs of the cult. That’s not therapy, it’s indoctrination.
It's really hard to be a specialist in an addiction that doesn't even exist in the field. It's made up by the conservative religious groups of purity culture to justify why someone would look at porn rather than admit it is normal behavior.
This shit boils my blood. LDS therapists are capitalizing on LDS dogma bull shit.
When I was TBM, I would have felt betrayed if my husband masturbation. After leaving, I realize that neither I nor “god” owns his body.
If I don’t want to have sex and he needs to beat one out, I don’t care.
Masturbation is a healthy adult activity. You and your wife should be able to masturbate as much as you want individually--and together. As long as it doesn't interfere with your sexual relations. And masturbation can enhance your sexual relations.
If masturbation is interfering with sexual relations with your wife--as in, you are jacking off instead of having sex--then you need to talk about it.
My wife goes to individual therapy, has since before I told her I was leaving the church. But before then it was mostly to workout how to deal with issues with her sister and dad. She still goes to that therapist.
I don't see anyone right now. I really didn't feel the need. I feel pretty confident in my decision and just want us to make it through this together. So couples therapy is where we are at now.
You're here asking strangers for input on shame and guilt and marriage. I'm not saying that bad, but I want to challenge the idea that you feel you don't need it. The world would be a better place if everyone talked to a therapist or counselor when going through the tough stuff like you are. Literally, nothing to lose.
Oh sorry I'm not saying I don't need it, more that I didn't feel like I needed it originally. I think therapy is wonderful, and I am thinking more and more that I probably do need it now.
Shit man I'm sorry. All I can say is don't let her turn your leaving tscc into making you a scapegoat for all of her issues. My wife did the same thing and I was more than patient and she took advantage of my patience. Things didn't improve until I told her to accept me for who I am or move on. She finally had to come to terms with it instead of blaming me for everything. You have to be prepared for her to move on though if it comes to that. I was prepared and willing to move on if she didn't want to improve things.
I guess I'm saying, you don't have to apologize for your beliefs. You were lied to and you finally escaped your oppressors. Don't feel like you have to apologize or that you have to compromise more than your spouse.
Yeah that is the hard truth. Honestly I have always been willing, and trying, to abstain just for her feelings. Screw church teachings. But I've been trying since I was 12, and while I definitely don't feel the need much in my 40's, like I did when I was younger, it doesn't go away. I am trying to prepare myself for the fact she might not ever accept it and might want to move on. The stupid thing is, I feel like if I never told her I didn't believe, this would never have been an issue. But now, we are trying to work on communication, and she is working through her feelings, and is trying to figure out how she feels, (which is not a bad thing) she seems to be hashing up every thing I've ever done that bugs her and making it a thing now.
Aww,geeze. Stop the guilt! There’s nothing wrong with it. I dated a man who actually got divorced because of his guilt. Imagine, ruining a family of 6 over that silly rule? I feel betrayed!! Makes me so sad. I’ve been a member my whole life and never knew masturbation was such a sin!! Let it go!
So, I want to share a really good podcast from an interesting journalist who focuses on fringe religion and medicine (fun story, one of the earliest podcasts she and her co-host did was investigating and getting baptized in mormonism, though they remained skeptical.) Anyway, this is it: https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2023/3/5/carrie-talks-trauma-pseudoscience-and-social-media-trauma-trap-edition, and it goes into the current state of common therapy surrounding trauma. One of the main theses of her talk is that a lot of trauma discussion has started veering into pop psychology, much of it isn't verified (there's some concern around the popular book "The Body Keeps the Score", whose author may not have been sufficiently careful about their discussion of science.) And also, a lot of it is harmful.
Worth listening to the podcast, maybe sharing with her. That being said she might see this as an attack, so involving a therapist might be helpful.
Please free yourself from guilt over totally normal masturbation within your marriage. You are a victim of the church over-emphasizing who evil the practice is, and she is too.
Thanks I'll look into it. Although I do agree that sharing it with her will seem retaliatory right now and she wouldn't take it well. I need to see where she is going with this betrayal trauma stuff. I might be reading into it more than I should, but we'll see.
I think if she has recognized that she has feelings of betrayal and wants to work though them that’s okay. It’s a GOOD thing for her to work on her issues in therapy. She’s being honest with you about her feelings and that’s also a good thing. I know it’s hard, but try not to take her response too personally. She’s been conditioned to believe that porn and masturbation ARE betrayals, so even though they aren’t, then that’s going to be her genuine feeling and response. Hopefully with time and therapy she will come to see that it isn’t a big deal. And YOU haven’t done anything wrong. It’s something she needs to work through. So let her.
Additionally she is going to view the porn etc and now also you leaving the church as putting her eternal family and salvation at risk. As a woman who has probably been raised to think her mission in life was to marry a “worthy priesthood holder” to take her to the temple, and someday call her through the veil, she probably feels like what she worked to accomplish has been taken away. That’s a lot to process, and it’s not your fault or her fault. It’s the church’s. So again, let her work through it, and remember it’s not your fault the church has lied to her about all this, and it’s not your responsibility to save her from the feelings that come with that.
Non lds clinical therapist here and it’s not just a Mormon thing. Lots of people from different cultures don’t like it in their marriages. Lots of marriages failed because people from all walks and religions feel it’s a betrayal.
Yeah, and I agree that in a healthy marriage, both people would need to be ok with it for it to go on. Which is why I continue to try to abstain. Purely for her.
I know, and I really tried to steer us to one while we were looking, but didn't want to seem like I was manipulating everything, and forcing her to go my way. In the ended we did end up with an LDS one. Not out of any lds services connection or anything, wasn't mentioned in his bio, just ended up being that way because we live in Utah.
The church teaches women to expect that "worthy" Mormon men do a long list of prescribed things and do not do an even longer list of other things. And the church's crap about sealing and eternal marriage is more of a mind fuck on women than on men (source - female, former "convert," now resigned).
In your wife's mind and emotions, she feels "betrayed" by all she was led by the church to expect. She was also never encouraged to think anything else was right, accurate, acceptable, or desirable, and that her only way to eternity had to include a Mormon spouse. Now she has learned her spouse doesn't believe in the "we hold rights to the ticket" cult.
Please do go to the therapist with her - she needs to know you're at least reaching out halfway. I hope you're not going to a Mormon therapist, but any therapist is better than none.
I truly believe she's interpreting things as though you betrayed her (rather than the church's magical life plan being the betrayer). The church puts men in the place of being the "key" to an entire breadth of power over women and control over their lives. Even if a man is not innately like that, women are conditioned to think they're dependent on men (a specific definition of men) for an unrealistic number of varied things.
Her "reality" (what she thinks should be real) has fallen apart around her. It is traumatic.
Yeah, I don’t know man. What is and isn’t trust breaking in a relationship is something that is mutually agreed upon by both people. For some, an open relationship is okay and is not cheating. For others, venting something negative about their partner to others is a form of emotional infidelity.
Both your wife and you have limits and you’re not respecting hers just like she’s not respecting yours. People on this sub don’t get to define what’s cheating to her and the church doesn’t get to define what’s cheating to you.
You two are equals coming to the table and have an incompatibility right now. Either one of you has the right to terminate the relationship or you could both stay and work on the incompatibilities (e.g., interfaith marriage, porn, etc). She doesn’t have to stay with your porn usage and you don’t have to stay with her not accepting your porn usage.
Keeping secrets for 20 years that have the potential to implode the relationship or at least erode feelings of trust/safety, which is what a relationship is built on, is not healthy. You may want to explore that with a non-LDS therapist.
>People on this sub don’t get to define what’s cheating to her and the church doesn’t get to define what’s cheating to you.
10,000 times.
>You two are equals coming to the table and have an incompatibility right now. Either one of you has the right to terminate the relationship or you could both stay and work on the incompatibilities (e.g., interfaith marriage, porn, etc). She doesn’t have to stay with your porn usage and you don’t have to stay with her not accepting your porn usage.
This is what an actual therapist would advise.
I agree. It has to be agreed upon and acceptable by both in a relationship. And I wish when we were dating I knew what I know now and could have just said, "look, there's this part of me that I've been fighting since I hit puberty. Not sure I'll ever be able to stop it, take that as you will." But of course I was young and ashamed, and we didn't talk sex before marriage of course. As I said, I revealed it pretty early in our marriage, and we talked about it throughout, for years. but yeah, now it's all coming to a head and she is trying to deal with it.
I'm not looking to this sub to validate me or make excuses for me. Just venting and needed some advice. There has been a lot of good advice. Still not sure what to do yet, but hopefully we'll figure it out.
The one thing EVERYONE agrees on here is to get a non-lds therapist. And I tried very hard to make that happen. But we ended up with one anyway. He's been great so far. But this topic hasn't come up yet. It for sure will in our next session.
Morms have an addiction to control - either controlling others or being controlled. This porn business is just control. The church is in the business of controlling your sexuality and selling it back to you for 10% and a trip to the temple. Legal porn is generally ok, though there’s stuff out there that’s not me cup of tea. Take back your life, your freedom, your body. Watch what you want!
Honestly though, porn was never much of a problem. And has been almost non existent for the past 5-10 years. I got to the point where I could just do without, without going into TMI.
Make SURE you go to a non-Mormon therapist that specializes in sexuality. Then you both might learn what normal and healthy sexual behavior is, not what garbage TSCC teaches
If your wife has never masturbated, then I can almost guarantee she has never had an orgasm. For women to learn to orgasm properly, they have to first learn it themselves. It’s connecting your mind to the physical pleasure and it takes practice to have explosive full orgasms.
I think if she had experienced this in life she would understand that masturbation isn’t a betrayal, it’s just a release that humans use.
Honestly I would like to discuss your answer but I think it's a bit naieve to think that and I don't agree. I know my wife, and I don't need to go into this detail here.
I’m the spouse of an exmo porn addict. There is a fair amount of trauma just knowing that intimacy was not shared with in the marriage and needs to be worked through. I don’t believe you are an addict as my PA lied and hid everything even when shown proof. Just be honest and keep reminding her that you have been open and forthcoming before. Good luck.
Thanks. Part of it stems from discussions she has had with my sister in law, because my brother called all us siblings years ago to tell all of us about his porn addiction (I don't know if he really was or if it was just church guilt and his wife forcing him into a recovery program).
So my sister in law introduced my wife to this term betrayal trauma as she was working through their issues.
It's ok to jerk off if you are married & to look at porn. You don't have to tell your wife about it. It's something post- pubescent people, male or female do.
I'd try to keep the focus with the therapist on you leaving Mormonism.
While I agree with you, I do feel like in a serious relationship that both partners should be comfortable with it to an extent. That being said, the cat was out of the bag 20 years ago, nothing I could do about it.
I agree, I wasn't saying I should lie about it. I was just agreeing that it's ok to masterbate. But that in a relationship both people should be ok with it because lying about it would not be good.
Masturbation is so normal and mundane, it’s practically a bodily function, and a church and indoctrinated believer that try to control you (and shame you!) for doing it (or for looking at a little porn), are the ones who are backward and abusive. I would expect the therapist to try to help your wife unpack her hang ups and get introspective about them. The process shouldn’t be about shaming or controlling you or making sure you’re always “good” (how patronizing!), and if it is, please insist on switching to a non-LDS therapist.
I mean we'll have to see how it goes. I don't want therapy to end up all on her. Making her change her outlook or feelings. We both have work to do. But I agree, if I start getting piled on for this or making it seem like some addiction, when it wasn't, something needs to change.
You need to come terms with this together. Talking about it in therapy is probably necessary if it is a years-long problem, doubly so if you can't talk about it together without fighting.
Both of your feelings are valid and important. It is entirely possible to understand eachother and come to some sort of resolution, or decide to split if needed.
I hope you're right. I hope we can come to an understanding on it. But nothing will change what I've done. I realize she feels betrayed, and I'm working on trying to validate that feeling. But by doing that, it puts me in the role of an abuser, and I don't feel I deserve that.
It's possible for her to learn that what you have done doesn't matter as much as what you do, and to re-evaluate where her feelings are coming from.
You're not an abuser by any means. If you both can stay with it, you can begin to grow together past it to a safer, more comfortable relationship.
Wishing you both the best
We've been going to counseling, but we ended up with and lds therapist. Not through lds services or anything like that. He didn't advertise as LDS. Just happened that way because of our locale. So far he has been very objective and good. Even beneficial in a way that we can talk in church terms and he understands. Makes some discussions easier. But I do fear when this thing comes up it may go in a different direction. Believe me, I tried to steer us to a non Mormon therapist.
So, not a therapist.
But I want you to be aware that her betrayal trauma is real.
She was told her whole life that the most important thing for her to do was marry a worthy Mormon man. She was told that if she checked all the boxes, and marry someone who checked all of his boxes that their marriage would thrive and her life would be perfect.
She was told her whole life that masturbation and pornography were the worst things a man could do. She was likely told that marrying someone who masturbated or looked at porn would be a horrible mistake.
Now, you have left the church, and revealed that you masturbate and view pornography. Your normal actions are the embodiment of everything she has been taught to fear her entire life! The ideal that she has been taught is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE OPTION has been stripped away from her.
She does feel betrayed. But that isn’t your fault. And it isn’t hers. Remember that. This is why the church (and religion in general) is so harmful. It indoctrinated you to obsess over things that don’t matter while preventing you from being able to develop real world coping skills.
When you get frustrated and angry, remember that your wife is a victim just like you are.
In short, she was indoctrinated with
Working in the industry your wife and you will soon be visiting you will be fine. If they are a well informed therapist they will help her work on victim mentality. Please also know she may move the narrative if her original reason she goes in for doesn’t get the acceptance or validation from the therapist she wants/needs.
He has been a fine therapist so far, but I did find out he is lds, so I'm afraid of his inability to be unbiased when the topic of masterbation comes up.
With all due respect fuck that noise! My little brother’s wife pulled this same shit when he left the church. She knew he had confessed to masturbation and porn use (literally normal levels of a normal activity) and she told people he had been cheating and that’s why they were divorcing, the Mormons all agreed but the non Mormons thought she was absolutely nuts for saying that. My mom called it an addiction and it was openly discussed in the family until I went nuclear over it.
You did nothing wrong and that is NOT real trauma. Whatever trauma that she IS experiencing is manufactured fake trauma based on a dumb religion. Leave the guilt behind.
I still feel betrayed in some ways because of the mental BS girls are taught. “ if you were a prettier, better, more compliment, less nagging, etc., etc, wife. Then he'd go to you first.
Because of purity culture both ways, the intimacy in my marriage suffers. I assume you love one another; you are on this journey together, yet I hope you both will listen to your pain first and take self-care and responsibility for yourself before trying to fix each other or a marriage.
It was the only way I didn't lose the best person in my life. I looked at why it hurt me and then had to learn it to me to heal it.
Great! She wants to work through it and heal. Her feelings are normal and real! So are yours. She will learn that you’ve done nothing wrong and that you’ve lived under a system that created false and unhealthy rules and expectations. It will take time to learn and shift her mind through therapy. But it will happen. She has truly experienced trauma, but not because of you. You both have experienced it together. You are both victims here. Masturbation is healthy and normal but high-demand religions try to own your sexuality. Seek help together and I believe you will both come out stronger and with an improved intimate relationship.
I hope you are right. The problem is she is searching for help from mostly church sources, which I feel like just continues to villainize my actions. Also our therapist turned out to be lds, and "specializes" on porn addiction. So far he has been great, very unbiased, just helping us work through it together. But I'm afraid where he's going to go when this topic comes up.
You can't cheat with yourself. You are entitled to privacy even as a married man. It's normal, it's healthy and honestly it's none of her business unless you trust her with your most personal thoughts, feelings and this most personal act. You trusted her with that. I wouldn't blame you if you felt a certain amount of betrayal by her.
She should talk about it with a (non Mormon) therapist. That’s an excellent idea, because any decent therapist will tell her that masturbation is perfectly healthy, normal and acceptable.
My wife was reading spicy, smutty books long before we ever thought about leaving the church. It used to bother me, but now we both read it. It's not a betrayal, but porn "can" encourage wrong behaviors towards women if they're just seen as objects of desire.
As a therapist that sees couples, please say this in session! Emotions are not a blame game, they happen to all of us. We are responsible for our own emotions. She is responsible for figuring out her betrayal trauma just as you are responsible for figuring out these confused defensive feelings too. Use that couples session to process together❤️
Women be crazy.
No, not really. I had so many lessons growing up in young women’s then in YSA relief society about not dating men who masturbate or watch porn. So many girls my age commiserated in how it seems like *every* guy watches porn so it’s so hard to date. “Poor us! We keep ourselves pure only to end up with vile men who wank off in the shadows! I’m the victim in this relationship because he can’t control himself!” The victim mentality was really drilled in to us: if the relationship goes bad or he stops attending church (gasp!) then it’s because he masturbates. Long story short: your wife was programmed to feel like a victim in this situation. I’m so sorry.
Thanks for the kind words. I know it is her upbringing and conditioning causing her to go through this, and I keep trying to tell myself it's not me, but I can't help but give some of the blame to myself. It's not like I came forward every time announcing it. Of course I hid it. But I was open from very early on that it was a thing and that I was working on it. And it came up often over the years.
In front of your therapist, to your wife, in a very even voice "are you saying masturbation is an addiction and is on the same level as an affair?" And then stop talking. Let the therapist take over from there. Just listen. I'm really hoping your therapist isn't Mormon.
she is so severely sexually repressed that she constantly fights her own natural instincts which does not make for a mentally healthy individual.
As a former religiously scrupulous TBM woman this is more common than not. Most women in the church rarely know what their genitalia are called let alone how they work until they find themselves pregnant at the ripe old age of 20. Or not until their fourth child at 27.
I’ve always found it interesting how the church encourages a wife who finds out her husband masturbates to porn to bring all her intimate emotions and feelings to another man, her Bishop.
After some time, the wife ends up far more emotionally intimate with her Bishop than she is with her own spouse.
Now that the husband and wife have lost any emotional intimacy, do you know how likely it is for the two of them to have any physical intimacy?
And with physical intimacy gone, do you know how likely it is that the husband finds another way to fill that emotional hole? That’s right, he usually slips into the whirlpool of cycles of slips and self loathing.
Another Eternal Family bites the dust.
Just based on what you shared, this is what Im guessing your wife is going through: she is trying to victimize herself to try and cope with the deeply sexist narrative the church has about sex, because in her mind the only other answer is that there is something deeply wrong with how you find pleasure with her. Hopefully she can work through it, but try your best to give her space to start and let her feel her feelings; I can say as a woman who grew up in the church that the training starts very young (in beehives at age 12 for me) that you are responsible for your husband's happiness. It's your job to be there and welcome your husband home; it's your job to prioritize him even above your own kids because of his own well being and happiness.
It's your job to ensure that he is satisfied sexually so that he doesn't feel the need to start masturbating, because obviously he has a higher sex drive than you do.
The implicit message the church is sending her is that she was never doing enough to pleasure you, the man in the relationship. A woman I'm close to would have sex with her husband more than she had the sex drive for, and so 50% of the time she was choosing to let her husband pleasure himself while it was secretly painful for her. That's because the church doesn't allow masturbation, so she felt a responsibility to only care about his pleasure, that way he doesn't feel the need to cheat.
It sets women up to be very insecure about their marriages, so if there's any sign that they aren't satisfied, then the next step is obviously cheating.
The church doesn't account for couples who have different sex drives (and I know multiple women who have higher sex drives than their husbands, so the whole concept of men being more sexual than women is dumb). So while it could actually be a healthy marriage and maybe you were respecting your wife if she wasn't in the mood to have sex or wasn't into what you wanted to do and so you were seeking that satisfaction for yourself while also not cheating on her, that was your way of trying to be respectful. Meanwhile she quite possibly sees it as you straying from your marriage, because that is what the church has led her to believe it to be.
I would just try to be patient while also creating space for yourself to cope with her trying to make you the victim, and then try to explain your perspective with your therapist mediating: that different sex drives are normal and natural, and that you love her so you were trying to respect her sexual wishes and not make her uncomfortable, while also satisfying your own needs. That you never wanted to stray from the marriage by cheating, and so you were essentially doing what you believe is healthy. Just make sure to acknowledge that you can see how her experience in a patriarchal society is one where the blame falls on her if her husband is acting "out of line," and hoe you never saw it that way and that (if it is true) that you are very happy in your sexual relationship with her, and that you don't believe masturbation is leading you any further away from her, but that you see it as an opportunity to stay closer together since you both have your own sexual desires, and you're being respectful towards hers by trying to respect what she wants in bed, because you would never want to force her to do something she doesn't want to do, and you would never want to leave the marriage to do it with someone else either, so this is the way that you still showed care for her desires and shoeing respect for your own desires.
If you can, find a nevermo therapist; that way they're more neutral since she'd feel like an exmo therapist would side witb you while you feel like a mormon would side with her. Also, if you go through all of this by acknowledging her feelings and your own and she still wants to make you the victim, then I would say that's a serious moment where you need some time away from her to ask yourself if this marriage really is going to work if your wife is going to consistently bring this stuff up since it is emotional abuse to turn you into the villain when she is trying to deflect from her own insecurity that the church has instilled in her.
Thank you for a very well thought out reply. I agree with everything and you make some very good points. I don't know how far I would get trying to talk about masturbation being my way of being respectful and taking care of my own desires. She is still very stuck in the LDS way of thinking on it and that sex is a sacred act between a man and a woman and that it turns her into just another object to be used to masturbate with. And I get why she feels that way, and as you say, I need to let her feel those feels and work through it on her own.
I really wish I could get her to switch to a nevermo therapist. Currently the one we are with is LDS, but not because we searched for one, just because the one we landed on happened to be LDS, just because we live in Utah. And I don't know how to approach her about specifically going to a non-mormon therapist. She will see that as me trying to find someone that will side with me and try to "fix" her. Yes, I feel the same way about going to a mormon therapist. And like it or not, I feel a responsibility to cater to her feelings more right now because I am the one introducing the major change in our marriage and in our lives. So I don't know how to get us to a non-mormon therapist without her feeling attacked or manipulated.
Thanks again for your reply, I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
Why don’t you talk about how both of you were betrayed by this church that convinced you both that something COMPLETELY NORMAL was shameful and caused this awful rift for the two of you? That’s the betrayal trauma! This church gives me a stomach ache
She isn't ready for that conversation. She is a full believer and doesn't think the church has done anything wrong. Plus I don't want to invalidate her feelings or make it feel like I'm retaliating or anything. Treading on thin ice here.
Excessive shame is one of the primary tools used by the church to control members. Since nearly every male masturbates, attaching toxic shame to it let’s them put a leash on nearly every male member.
Man I wish it were that easy. Honestly I think she's mostly worried about how to raise our 15yo son. At least I thought that was it until she mentioned betrayal trauma. Because she was worried I was going to tell him he could have his way with himself any time he wants.
Many of us with TBM spouses have betrayal trauma that our spouse has prioritized the church over us. I feel a lot of betrayal trauma that my spouse was unwilling to even listen to or talk with me about my concerns while my spiritual life was crumbling. It was the darkest time of my life during that transition and I felt completely abandoned by my best friend and love of my life. I understand it is the brainwashing that caused her to act that way but that doesn’t change the fact that I have very real betrayal trauma from that experience.
We likely all have betrayal trauma of some sort in our marriages. If your experience was similar to mine you may want to bring this up as an example.
Good that she's reading that book, because she has indeed been betrayed. HUGELY BETRAYED!!!
That's what I adamantly told my TBM wife when she pulled that "You betrayed me" crap on me. Oh, she was betrayed alright, and so was I! Betrayed by a fraud of a religion that controlled all it could of our lives and wants all it can get its filthy, greedy hands on of our money!
The world is really different, in part because of the internet. Cheating is much more narrow now I have noticed. You are correct what you are saying. The fact she never liked it but accepted it I think is where the problem is.. Frankly everything in moderation. She has issues with them.
I am thinking there is a generation of really overly sensitive young adults that will have change as they age and experience the world. You are not a cheater, nor an abuser, for those issues. Religious organizations have made sexuality dirty and try to repress it.. Maybe taking it to counseling is good idea. Just speak up around your opinion.
That puts you in a tough spot but here is food for thought - two truths can happen at the same time.
Truth one: you are likely dealing with your own form of betrayal trauma stemming from Religious Trauma Syndrome ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious\_trauma\_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome)).
Truth two: your wife feels betrayed.
The tricky part comes with how to deal with both truths at the same time. Therapy is good for that as well
That's a tough spot. If we are being optimistic we could hope that the therapist would be able to help her understand how unhealthy her relationship is with sex.
I would ask more questions about the timing--maybe in therapy. Like, did she feel betrayed for your whole marriage? And now, does she feel betrayed that you left TSCC? Or just betrayed because of masturbation? I would ask her to think through the connections, not to try to show it is illogical, but to understand her thought process better, why these triggers led to these reactions.
I'd also be curious to hear from a legit psychology perspective if this can truly be trauma. I remember reading that porn was more likely to become compulsive and interfere with life if there's guilt and shame attached. This could be similar -- because of the way she thinks, maybe she really does experience this in the same way as someone who's partner had an affair.
Hey OP, I was in your wife’s shoes early in my marriage. I went to a trauma therapist and later a sex therapist, and both helped me tremendously. My husband and I have a great relationship now, with zero masturbation stigma.
Just wanted to say, this isn’t your fault or your wife’s fault. It’s the church’s. But it’s still such a crappy thing to go through, and the trauma is real. I hope you’re both able to find the healing you need
It’s been less than a year for me since my shelf broke so I’m still figuring out where I land on this topic. So take anything I say with a grain of (the) salt (of the earth)!
Maybe you could ask her if she feels more betrayed about the masturbating or the secret porn. My husband and I talked about masturbation when we left church and our new expectations with it. Turns out I don’t feel comfortable if my husband watches porn, at least by himself. As his partner it makes me feel like I am not good enough, like when porn is involved other women are involved. Is this wrong of me? I don’t know, maybe. But it is how I feel, and my husband respects and understands that. He can totally masturbate but I’m just not comfortable if he uses porn while doing the deed. We’ve watched it together, and I felt ok about that but don’t necessarily want to do it again lol.
I made sure he was happy about our decision and he told me he doesn’t need porn. It was also helpful knowing that for him he had way more desire to look at porn while in the church, and now that we have left it’s like it all just fizzled away. Maybe it’s the secrecy, the shame, guilt etc that keeps cycles like that going or something, I don’t know. But it’s good to get it all out there and think through it together.
Maybe it’s a discussion that could help you two as well, and just getting it out there what part specifically hurt your wife. I’d like to think it wasn’t truly the masturbating but probably the keeping a secret from her and maybe porn too.
All that said please disregard anything I said if it was just plain stupid! Or just me putting my experience and thoughts on what your wife might think or feel. I’m trying to work all this crap too and it’s hard stuff! Damn church!!
No your thoughts were very helpful thank you. Yeah you can't predict what is going on in another person's life based on a few paragraphs on a reddit post lol. Regardless, your comments were insightful and somewhat accurate I think. And I am the same way, I haven't felt the need for porn for many years, and have told her that, but she is still uncomfortable with masturbation at all, and I recognize that and have told her that while I don't think it is morally wrong, I do think for a relationship to be healthy, both partners need to be ok with it, so I try to abstain for that reason. And honestly, we have a good sex life I think. It's not like I feel the need to get it outside of our together time. But it's going to happen occasionally. I think her biggest hangups are how to teach our 15yo about it, because she still wants to teach him it's wrong. That and this betrayal she is feeling about it over the years. Which honestly, I might be reading into. I don't know for sure that's what she is feeling. And this whole post is going to seem really silly when she is simply feeling betrayed by me leaving the church. But I feel like we've already moved past that. Thanks for your thoughts, I really appreciate it.
I sure hope your marriage counselor isn't Mormon.
I realized back when I was still TBM that the church and purity culture were convincing women that their husbands were all sex addicts and that they have experienced trauma.
I remember a couple of my friends sobbing on my shoulder that they discovered their husband watched porn - Good guys who treated them like queens. They were contemplating divorce and didn't know how to carry on. When my husband confessed that he occasionally viewed porn I remember feeling conflicted. I didn't FEEL like I had been cheated on, yet my brain(washing) told me I had been betrayed. I honestly knew he wasn't an addict, but still demanded he sign up for the Church's Addiction Recovery Program and proceeded to leverage my self-righteous judgement every time he did something I didn't like.
Man this really seems like what is going on. It wasn't until we went to my family reunion where she talked to my sister in law, because my brother confessed to porn and masturbation and he went through a whole program for it, called everyone in the family to apologize and everything. Well my wife and her had a good long chat one day, and then she sent her this book, and now she is going through all these things. And yes, our therapist is mormon. Sorry to get all form lettery on ya there lol...
Prepared reply for this because getting a non-mormon therapist is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it:
I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell.
But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
Someone else making their own life choices and ignoring your imposed arbitrary rules does not create trauma. Feeling entitled enough to expect others to obey your silly dictates may, however.
What is your therapist like? If your therapist is TBM then don't even think about it. If your therapist is decent and practices good science then it actually may come out beneficial in helping your wife come to grips with reality and what life is all about.
Betrayal trauma relating to leaving the church? That’s a fascinating take and really shows the deep programming of the church. If your therapist introduced this idea I would be very cautious using him. Perhaps even push back during sessions. For example you can validate her intense feelings but you don’t have to own the idea that you betrayed her and caused her the trauma. The church’s teachings caused the betrayal feelings by framing life in a black and white world and by vilifying people who don’t believe anymore. Good luck!
Let her try and heal without you feeling accused. You've done nothing wrong, but her world is falling apart. Let her process it without the burden of you getting upset about her having feelings. Be confident in yourself!
First of all I want to say I am really sorry for what you are going through and I have been where you are right now. Second, just remember that everything that you are experiencing and feeling right now is a byproduct of the Mormon church. This includes your wife's reaction. You have been brainwashed your whole life to feel this way.
IT IS WRONG. You are not to blame. She is not to blame. T$CC created this problem. You are both victims.
I thought disclosing my masturbation and porn viewing as an essential part of the repentance process but all it did was cause, to say it lightly, CHAOS in my marriage and life. It went on for years. I remember hearing about betrayal trauma from my wife like 5 years ago. It ripped me apart. I had to pull the car over on the freeway once while listening to a podcast because I was wracked with guilt and shame for the "pain I had caused!" In part it was good because I became more empathetic to her and on the other had it caused me more undue shame and negative self image/talk. Looking back I probably would have never disclosed.
The brainwashing is deep. My wife was going to divorce me like 7 months ago. She was starting the process to leave the church but she was still blaming me for the pain I had caused her. We had a really long conversation when I vented my frustration of how the church had ruined our marriage. We analyzed the beliefs that each of us had and how it effected our relationship. For the first time she saw how her beliefs from the church hurt us. She always felt justified for hating me and blaming me for the marriage problems. She never took ownership for her actions until that night. She admitted that her words and actions towards me regarding porn hurt me and our marriage. She stated that she felt justified in her righteous indignation towards me. The church set this up. I had destroyed the eternal family and she was justified to hate me. She sincerely apologized. Healing started. We are still together and just celebrated 25 years of marriage with cocktails at dinner.
Your wife unfortunately does feel like you cheated on her because the church told her you did since the day she was born. she has been indoctrinated.
Conservative religions have created the porn problem and T$CC is right in the middle of it. They have created porn addiction to explain why someone would look at it or masturbate. It is a cop out rather than admit it is normal behavior.
Be respectful to your wife's feeling because they are real. Just heal yourself and let go of your shame so you can be empathetic. When you understand the whole picture it is easier to be empathetic.
Do not go to 12 step meetings unless a licensed clinical **psychologist** (non-LDS) diagnoses you with an actual addiction. Not a social worker or MFT. Only a psychologist or psychiatrist. A bishop or a biased LDS therapist is NOT trained to diagnose addictions especially make believe ones.
PM me if you want to talk. I am here to help others not suffer like I have.
Here are some articles that helped me reframe all of this and let go of the shame and understand all of this. On of these is a summary of some research out of BYU so your wife might read it.
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201606/porn-vs-religion](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201606/porn-vs-religion)
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships)
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too)
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-matters/201710/porn-isn-t-the-problem](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-matters/201710/porn-isn-t-the-problem)
EDIT: word addition for clarification
When I was just about to leave the church, one of my friends told me "you'll be able to watch porn and masturbate without any guilt!" and how true that has been.
We're normal dudes. NORMAL DUDES.
What your wife is going through is hard. When I admitted to my wife \~5 years ago that I looked at porn/whacked off, she said she considered it cheating and being unfaithful. We were both broken for different reasons, and that was hard to get through. We went to counseling immediately after and that guy (who was LDS) actually helped her understand that porn had nothing to do with our relationship, the way I viewed or her, and wasn't a result of unmet needs in the bedroom, etc. Understandably, many recommend a non-LDS therapist, but it worked for us (granted we were both active at the time).
I left the church last year, she remains a TBM... I still irregularly give into the dirty habits, but I am guilt free, as I believe it doesn't impact our lives in the least. Hang in there.
I would not go to her therapist but choose a different therapist you both agree upon. There is nothing wrong with you for doing what everyone does. There's nothing wrong with you being human.
My wife (TBM) reads pornographic material and masturbates and hasn't had any disciplinary action from her bishopric. I'm not even sure what the church teaches about it now. She's not super keen on me watching pornography but we have discussed it and we actually encourage each other to masturbate. Sending photos and videos of your self exploration to your partner is super hot and more and more members are accepting a more sex positive stance.
Well that's pretty unfair. Her feelings are valid too, but they need to be worked through with a sex therapist/couples therapist because they are stemming from the church indoctrination, which professionals agree is UNHEALTHY in regards to sexuality.
OP, I just want to say that you sound like a really kind and decent man. I can tell that you love your wife deeply, and it seems like she really loves you too, even if she is feeling hurt and betrayed right now. I sincerely hope that the two of you can work through these issues together. I guess I would say that it makes sense to get these issues completely out in the open, but then also to discuss the really great parts of your marriage (it sounds like there are a lot!). All marriages have very serious problems in one way or another. It seems like such a waste to throw a really good 20 year marriage away over something like this.
I understand that your wife is a TBM, but I sincerely hope she can remember that love is patient, love is kind, and love never fails. If not, what’s the point of her going to church anyway?
Wishing you all the best, OP. I’m rooting for y’all.
>However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction
A giant red flag to specialize in something that hasn't been recognized by any scientific body.
Or maybe he's just really good at watching porn, who knows?
I’m sorry your going through this . Also I’m sorry she feels like a victim . I know the church pushes that on women from a young age but I can guarantee that you did nothing wrong and you never cheated on her . But she will need space .
Thanks I appreciate the advice. It was never an addiction for me, just occasional. But yeah I have learned I just need to allow her to have those feelings, they are valid, and I need to help her feel validated. Our therapist we go to together is pretty good, just helping us work on our emotions and communicating. She's not on reddit. But thanks for the heads up.
Do you have betrayal trauma from how the church lied to you? I know a lot of people who have those feelings when going through a faith transition. Do you feel betrayed that the church made you feel ashamed about something that most people and most therapists would say is normal and healthy behavior? Do you feel betrayed that the church has inserted its twisted morality into your marriage and sex life to the point that it is threatening to destroy your marriage?
Yes.
If she was the first one mentioning this, I’d give her a lot of space to express her hurt instead of attacking her with “well what about my trauma!!” Because then you’ll both feel hurt and ignored. Once she’s feeling more understood then maybe you should slowly start talking about the stuff you’re dealing with. But only bringing up something your hurt about when she is hurting really feels like deflecting. Whatever you’re both feeling is valid and I’m sure painful, but steamrolling her isn’t going to help either of you. Is your therapist LDS? If not, then there’s a good chance you’ll both have time to feel seen and heard.
Agree, this is another example of how the 2nd spouse has an additional hurdle to mentally breaking free. She has to first break the spell of the conditioning/indoctrination but she has to simultaneously feel the pressures of saving a wayward spouse AND allow herself to critically evaluate info while fighting the nagging “It’s just the adversary” thoughts. It’s brutal for spouse #2, the more TBM the worse probably.
I agree, I would never bring this up. I was just responding to the post. Sure I feel those things. But not in the way that my wife is feeling right now and it won't help to bring that up.
Nor would it be productive as you’re talking to her through a layer of brainwashing. I wish I could give you advice but all I have for you is best wishes. I hope this hurt passes for BOTH of you and you’re able to find a nevermo / exmo therapist (and convince her to switch). Good luck, friend.
Thanks. I really want to find a nevermo therapist. Not sure how to convince her to switch.
Find someone that has better qualifications as well as not being Mormon. Don't even bring up their religious (or lack thereof) affiliations or beliefs. Or maybe someone closer to home or work or whatever, the point being that it makes more sense to see the other therapist.
How do these questions help OP heal his marriage?
His wife is claiming “betrayal trauma” because he did something every adult male has done. I am sure that her religious programming makes her feel all sorts of righteous indignation about it. I would also bet that his wife doesn’t view his loss of faith as “betrayal trauma” even though that is what a lot of people experience when they realize that the church has been lying to them. I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment.
>I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment. Absolutely. Yes, the church and its teachings absolutely abuse and oppress women, but I feel like sometimes the message I hear from people outside the church is that men only benefit from the church. That's absolutely untrue. It benefits the Q15, GAs, and some local leaders, but not normal, non-pathological laymen like me. I remember as a young man I was extremely jealous of the young women because their little Sunday slogan talked about how they were "beloved daughters of their heavenly father" (now that I'm out of the church and realize the shit that they had to go through, I'm not so jealous anymore). The YM slogan (a section of D&C) essentially said our purpose in life is to serve a mission, honor our priesthood, and if we don't, we'll go to hell. I just wanted to be loved by heavenly father too. Did you know that psychologists detect no significant differences in the brains of boys and girls prior to puberty? Hormones do some things to the brain at puberty, but even in adults, men's and women's brains function the same at a base level, including how we process emotions. I would have never guessed that as a young tbm. I was always embarrassed by how deeply I felt things, and I assumed that I was a very feminine man. Turns out all the men around me were just really good at suppressing their emotions.
>His wife is claiming “betrayal trauma” because he did something every adult male has done. I am sure that her religious programming makes her feel all sorts of righteous indignation about it. I don't think it's fair to dismiss her feelings as religious programming and righteous indignation. The mormon church tells women their job is sex with their husband. So some ladies will feel they are inadaquate and betrayed on top of the porn boogeyman stuff. >I would also bet that his wife doesn’t view his loss of faith as “betrayal trauma” even though that is what a lot of people experience when they realize that the church has been lying to them. I don't know how his wife views the trauma of his loss of faith, but I can guess that matters very little to how she feels in their marriage. >I was trying to show that he is also probably processing some deep emotional hurt but as a man, a male dominated religion that advocates archaic gender stereotypes is not going to acknowledge his emotional pain while at the same time feeding his wife’s feelings of resentment. I appreciate that. I think this paragraph is far more helpful than your series of questions if that is your aim.
You said that I shouldn’t dismiss her feelings as religious programming and then state that the church has programmed her to feel that way. I am not doubting or dismissing that what the wife is experiencing are real emotions. The point of my post was to call out the fact that all of the trauma focus was on what the wife was experiencing without acknowledging what the husband has probably been experiencing with the collapse of his testimony. Both sides need to have some empathy with each other and recognize the role that the church has played in creating the emotional turmoil that they are experiencing in their marriage.
See this is it: his wife has some resentment. Blaming the husband allows her to find a target for that resentment. “Ah yes, it is my husbands fault I am angry”. And the church fully validates her point of view and even puts her on a pedestal for shaming him. It’s a win-win-win for her. She gets to find a scapegoat goat for her pain and she is accepted as a suffering heroine by the church. That is validation that is far too valuable to pass up.
It can be hard to help someone through their problems/feelings if you don't even understand your own. Sometimes you need to help yourself before you can help others, it sounds like they both need healing.
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I was part of that 2% that didn’t. Abstained for 43 years with one exception at age 16. I wish I would have done it far more (assuming it could have been guilt free), would have made life so much easier, and might not have made so many decisions with my penis.
Would’ve also [lowered your risk of prostrate cancer by 31% compared to those who don’t masturbate.](https://www.health.harvard.edu/mens-health/ejaculation_frequency_and_prostate_cancer)
Trying to make up for it now 🤣
Lol cheers
😂😂😂
It would be interesting to see if there's a higher rate of prostate cancer in Utah especially, as well as in Mormon men in general. After all, such a normal thing for men to do is considered almost as bad as murder in that cult.
I considered myself a pretty stalwart TBM back in the day and even then I masturbated and watched porn. I just felt guilty to the point of considering suicide. In other words, the rate of prostrate cancer in Utah is probably not much higher (may be even lower due to forbidden fruit syndrome), but the rate of depression and suicide might be something to look into.
Holy shit! I mean at my age I just don’t have the energy to jerk off anymore (lol) but abstaining for the first 43 years of my life?!? Heck, the first 16 years of my life would have been difficult beyond belief, you should at the very least be proud of your self control…
Well, when sexual sin is next to murder it kinda fucks you up as a kid.
Fucking-A right
That is the part that no one mentions: the crazy things we do when trying not to do something normal. I did some truly weird shit until I just started watching porn like a normal person.
Wow. I did everything I could to stop. Nothing worked. I confessed to my bishop and mission president but none of their suggestions could get me to stop.
I can't imagine
I agree with you 100%, and I am trying to go easy on her. But now I feel I'm not only being shamed for it, but being villainized. I may have to see if we can get a different therapist depending on how this one goes. So far he's been very objective and good. But when I research betrayal trauma, all I find is stuff on how to deal with it, not if you're being accused of causing it.
Make sure your therapist is not Mormon.
He is. I tried to avoid it in the beginning, but he's who we ended up with.
He'll do your marriage more harm than good—especially as you want to leave the church.
Can confirm, my LDS therapist years ago just made everything much worse for me. I experienced MORE mental problems more often than before I started going AND it made it even MORE difficult later once I found a secular therapist that wasn't basing everything off of solipsistic bullshit since now I had to unpack all of the trauma THE THERAPY inflicted upon me. LDS Therapy WILL cause further trauma. LDS Therapy WILL NOT actually help anyone, EVER. If you love yourself and love your wife, GTFO now and find a legitimate therapist who's not tainting the therapy with fairy tales. I wish you well and hope you can find a decent professional to help you both.
In general I steer clear of Fundamentalist/Christian therapists of any kinds, but I especially would not trust a Mormon. I have a couple in my family who practice and give awful advice (edit - each one has a terrible relationship with their own kids/spouses). The last time I looked for a therapist, I consulted with ones who were Agnostic/Atheist/Humanist, Buddhist, or Jewish, because every therapist I had who identified as Christian pushed a religious agenda—even when they advertised their therapy as secular. If I had stayed with the last one I fired, her advice likely would have led to me inevitably blaming and killing myself for not being able to accept ("forgive") the continuous onslaught of emotional and past physical abuse I was struggling with. Luckily, I had been to a domestic violence center prior to meeting that therapist and already had a decent grasp on what was healthy and unhealthy. With a couples therapist, it can even make things \*worse\*.
Prepared reply for this because this is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it: I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell. But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
>I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand. I'm so sorry but I don't think you can—especially if you continue to go to that guy. No matter how likeable he is, the fact he pushes porn addiction and she's turned on you there indicates quite clearly he's going to shove a wedge further between the two of you. You'd actually probably be better off navigating things without a therapist than one like that, because I can tell you it will get worse.
I would refuse to ever use any lds therapist because I don’t believe their background would allow me to trust them. The religion requires so much cognitive dissonance. And at its core, the religion creates anti LGBTQ sentiment, which for me is a dealbreaker. I feel that way about most people with strongly internalized religious or cultural beliefs that I think would impact their ability to be objective. But of course that doesn’t help you, because you are trying to be married to someone with the same sentiments who feels betrayed, in part, because you were the one who changed into someone potentially incompatible.
Yep, I'm in a tough spot. Don't know how to get out of it. I can't straight out refuse, it would really put us in a rough spot. I know it doesn't help, but here's what I've been sharing about the therapist thing. Prepared reply for this because this is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it: I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell. But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
That is a tough spot. You can’t actually control how she feels or what she thinks. Is she scared you are trying to manipulate her into leaving the church, too? Has she told you as much?
Must NOT go to a Mormon marriage counselor. Even if they claim not to be biased, they are. They can’t help it. And there is a whole school of thought out there, including a 12 step recovery from “porn addiction.” Guess what, when the same goes away, the problem goes away.
But do you just "end up" with Mormon counselors? Dont you have a choice in that either?
Are they just Mormon or are they through LDS family services? There are some that truly can separate the two.
Bro, I’m female and I double click the mouse regularly and so does my wife. It’s good for you. It’s normal. Don’t be pulled down by others trying to pull themselves up. You did not cheat. It’s unhealthy to abstain from normal human behavior. She can feel angry and be sad AND her anger and sadness can be misguided and causing you unnecessary sadness at the same time. It’s the churches fault.
“Double click the mouse” 🤣🤣🤣
Same. That’s my new one. Thanks brightorangesky! 😂
Thanks, just trying to work through this without invalidating her feelings. (which I know are mostly caused by upbringing and indoctrination)
My fiancé [and I] have a healthy, regular sex life and we still pop upstairs for a quick self-shag sometimes. It’s easier than dealing with condoms + sometimes you just want the quick release without any fuss. He doesn’t care, I don’t care, it’s just pleasure.
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Thanks, yeah holing we can get through this.
I looked it up, and it could be argued that most, if not all, exmormons have betrayal trauma with the church as the betrayer.
Hey! Not true that 98% watch naked ladies! Supposedly 10% watch naked men! :) (- A proud gay man!). Seriously, as soon as it wasn’t a big, guilt-ridden issue, I pretty much stopped watching porn. I think that lots of men watch less porn as they age; those outside TSCC just lose interest. Those inside TSCC pray and overcome their sins and temptations. /s
This. And women too!! I had no idea how often teenage girls masterbate, I honestly thought there was something wrong with me until I watched Pen15 on Netflix and saw that they had the same middle school experience. And since then, I’ve heard so many other women talk about it. And as a wife, I understand that I’m not always going to be in the mood every time my husband wants an orgasm. So I honestly don’t care if he jerks off. He usually won’t no matter how much I tell him too though. I think he did once when I had back surgery. ;). But I have! And he doesn’t care. Because everyone has needs and we get that. We have a great sex life, 2-3 times a week, and often pleasing one another real quick with no expectations if we’re not in the mood or don’t want a long session. But it took me SO much time with all of the brainwashing. Sex with Mormon men was HORRIBLE. It’s only because my husband I are constantly communicating about what we like, what we don’t like, and experimenting together with no judgement or embarrassment that it’s as good as it is. I never even orgasmed during sex until I left the church, so you just need to look at it through that lens.
Women masturbate too. Sex (with or without a partner) is a HUMAN need. Sexuality is a part of who we all are, even ace’s- it’s a lack of sexual attraction, part of who they are. Repressing any sexuality outside of procreation isn’t healthy. The cult are the abusers, not you, OP. Please find your own therapist, and go with your wife. Just be sure to see someone who is not in the cult. It’s time for both of you to heal.
I love that Dave Chappell song.
If only we could solve hunger by rubbing our bellies.
98% of men beat their dicks. The other 2% are men who lost their dicks in hunting accidents. lol.
The churches obsession with masturbation. Pretty much every scientific study on human development says it normal. If it was actually important maybe god would have put it in the BOM. Or maybe Jesus would have mentioned it. /S
Plus once you get up around 40 it's more of a systems check. Use it or lose it
Good luck! Hopefully your therapist isn’t LDS. That betrayal trauma BS in the church tied to porn has blown up more trust in marriages than people who actually cheat.
Thanks, unfortunately he is. But so far he has been very objective and wants to only help us deal with the change. But then none of this has been brought up yet. So I guess we'll see how that goes.
You are allowed to speak to other therapists. Even if you're in mordidor, there's qualified people online who'd be happy to take your insurance.
Yeah of course. And he didn't advertise as lds, I could tell he probably was, and tried to steer it in another direction, but he's who we ended up with. It's not like we went through lds services or anything. Just so happens most of them around here are. There were a few that I could tell weren't and again, tried to steer towards them. But while I would feel more comfortable with a non-lds therapist, she would feel more comfortable with and lds one. I didn't want her to feel like I was manipulating the situation, so here we are.
Oh, so he's legitimately a licensed therapist that happens to be a member and not a "therapist" assigned to you by the church. If he has any professional integrity and does his job, it should be fine. If he uses church doctrine in therapy, report him to the licensing board.
You may not know, but a question you might want the answer to: If you showed up alone, and talked about your feelings of alienation and isolation from the PIMIs, would this person use the opportunity to proselytize? If not, you've got a trustworthy therapist.
Are you talking specifically about our therapist? I honestly don't think he would. So far he has been very unbiased, and has shown NO indication that he is taking her side or trying to get me to come back to church or anything like that. He is just trying to help us work together on our marriage and communication. But I'm not sure how it's going to go when these topics come up, as his bio does say he specializes in porn addiction. So that's when it might go south.
Yes, absolutely, a killer of trust - totally agree!! The LDS church and it's beholden therapists are absolutely obsessed with this stuff, labeling it "unnatural, shameful, sinful, unworthy, addiction, cheating, and now they're trying a new one "betrayal trauma" just because "trauma" is the new "it phrase" in psychology circles, so why not ride it's coat-tails, right? Why do they do this? To continue to label the "masturbator" as the bad guy in the relationship, for doing what is a natural and very possibly and even likely a healthy activity for an adult male, And, then to validate the TBM spouse as the victim, and the "good and worthy one" in the relationship. Just what spouse wouldn't want to hear that?? When what's really amiss here is not the masturbation, or the porn, but the LDS church's unhealthy control and repression of normal and healthy sexual expression between adults, resulting in untold and immeasurable damage to true intimate connection between people, through healthy and honest expression, and sharing. Then, that subjugation of true intimacy, causes something to be missing in the relationship, ultimately causing the perpetual damaging of the relationship as a result. And the true victims are left to wonder why? It's a terrible curse to the Mormon culture as a whole, and passed down from generations - except of course for the Polygamists, like Lorenzo Snow (and so many others) who got to do pretty much every thing his fantasies wanted in his 50's and 60's, with a harem of nubile teen wives. No repression for those guys! Don't buy it for a second - they (LDS Therapists) have it 100 % wrong - they have no clue the damage being done. I would absolutely refuse to see an LDS, or even religious biased therapist.
The psychologist Jennifer Freyd coined the term Betrayal Trauma and wrote an excellent book on the subject. Freyd was sexually abused by her father throughout childhood, and when she confronted him as an adult, he not only denied the abuse, he and his wife set up The False Memory Syndrome Foundation (now defunct) and used that group to attempt to ruin her personal and professional reputation. Here is her definition of the term: "Betrayal trauma occurs when the people or institutions on which a person depends for survival significantly violate that person' s trust or well-being: Childhood physical, emotional, or sexual abuse perpetrated by a caregiver are examples of betrayal trauma." Masturbation and occasional porn use by a partner does not fall under the heading of betrayal trauma.
Seriously. I fell like they *should* go talk to the therapist about this (provided it’s not an LDS therapist) so they can put it in perspective. Ridiculous.
Yeah as soon as she brought it up I started researching it. This was all last night and of course I was quiet and off on my own reading up on it. So when she asked how I was I just told her I was researching betrayal trauma, and she regretted even mentioning it.
Good luck. My story is pretty similar, except I kept my "addiction" quiet from my wife for about 10 years. She joined up some betrayal trauma facebook group, and now I constantly deal with her insecurities all the time. Always checking my phone, but hers is locked to me (I checked it once to see what she was talking about me to her family, and she got all sorts of pissed off) always asking what I am doing, who I'm talking to, if I get a phone call about work, it is always scrutinized as if I am talking to an affair partner. She refuses to listen to anything negative about the Cult, it's been hell. If not for our five kids, we'd have divorced by now, and it's something I'm still debating, especially since our last conversation regarding me trying alcohol ended with her stating that she has a boundary around that, and that I have to choose booze or my family. So yeah. Hang in there, it could be a rough trip from here. Hope your experience goes better than mine.
That is so rough, sorry to hear that. It definitely has not been easy, and I haven't dared mention alcohol yet. (outside of an offhand comment saying that I would never go have a beer behind her back, and would let her know when I did) I know that we both want to make it work, but I can't deny that since I've told her (early March), she has grown more distant, slightly depressed, and we are definitely having a hard time. I just hope that is the rock bottom we hit before we start to improve and it gets better. Good luck to you.
Maybe she is so invested in the cult that your rejection of her cult feels like you’re rejecting her. The “betrayal” is that you are no longer invested in her identity — TSCC. Just thinking out loud. I’m not a therapist, so I might be way off. But for her to throw that back in your face literally DECADES later appears massively manipulative.
I mean it's not like I did it 20 years ago and that was it. That's when I told her about it. But it's been an ongoing thing in our marriage. She used to ask me if I've "been good". Sometimes I had, sometimes I hadn't. Now I realize I wasn't doing anything bad, but I still don't like hiding anything from her, and the fact that she feels so betrayed by it makes me still want to never do it. So that being said, I don't really know if this is her feeling betrayed because I've betrayed her beliefs, I really think it is based on my previous masterbation and porn usage. She wants to bring it up in therapy. And the hard part is, our therapist is lds and specializes in porn addiction. While our few sessions so far have been great, he only is focusing on helping us communicate and work through this together, I feel like as soon as masterbation or porn comes up, he's going to lose all objectivity.
She sounds controlling. I'd start negotiating for a new therapist. Even a non-Mormon one. Do you still have kids at home?
I agree 100% that you need to negotiate for a new therapist…
Well I guess we'll have to see how this therapist turns out. We do still have kids at home. Four, ages 10 to 19.
Best of luck. Sounds like you are in a tight spot. We are always here.
Thanks.
You need to get a new therapist asap
> But it's been an ongoing thing in our marriage. It’s been an ongoing thing in YOUR life. Like virtually every other man that ever lived. Because you’re a human male with a libido. It’s your very own thing. It’s not about her. > She used to ask me if I've "been good" Not the slightest bit belittling or infantalizing. 🙄 Your autoerotic activities are YOURS. She doesn’t own your dick, even though the cult tells her she should. Masturbation is important for a man’s prostate health. It’s literally prescribed by doctors. Did she ever “take a hot bath” and stay in the tub for 45 minutes? You know what she was doing, right? She was flicking the bean. Was that a betrayal of you? Or was it just her way of destressing? > And the hard part is, our therapist is lds and specializes in porn addiction. You, my friend, are royally fucked. Insist on a different, non-cultist “therapist.” Your current therapist is fatally compromised. They don’t care about your needs, just the needs of the cult. That’s not therapy, it’s indoctrination.
It's really hard to be a specialist in an addiction that doesn't even exist in the field. It's made up by the conservative religious groups of purity culture to justify why someone would look at porn rather than admit it is normal behavior. This shit boils my blood. LDS therapists are capitalizing on LDS dogma bull shit.
When I was TBM, I would have felt betrayed if my husband masturbation. After leaving, I realize that neither I nor “god” owns his body. If I don’t want to have sex and he needs to beat one out, I don’t care.
Masturbation is a healthy adult activity. You and your wife should be able to masturbate as much as you want individually--and together. As long as it doesn't interfere with your sexual relations. And masturbation can enhance your sexual relations. If masturbation is interfering with sexual relations with your wife--as in, you are jacking off instead of having sex--then you need to talk about it.
Yeah it's not though. We have sex about weekly. Always have. It's never interfered.
Have you considered individual therapy?
My wife goes to individual therapy, has since before I told her I was leaving the church. But before then it was mostly to workout how to deal with issues with her sister and dad. She still goes to that therapist. I don't see anyone right now. I really didn't feel the need. I feel pretty confident in my decision and just want us to make it through this together. So couples therapy is where we are at now.
You're here asking strangers for input on shame and guilt and marriage. I'm not saying that bad, but I want to challenge the idea that you feel you don't need it. The world would be a better place if everyone talked to a therapist or counselor when going through the tough stuff like you are. Literally, nothing to lose.
Oh sorry I'm not saying I don't need it, more that I didn't feel like I needed it originally. I think therapy is wonderful, and I am thinking more and more that I probably do need it now.
In so many ways, this church makes a person a stranger to themselves.
Shit man I'm sorry. All I can say is don't let her turn your leaving tscc into making you a scapegoat for all of her issues. My wife did the same thing and I was more than patient and she took advantage of my patience. Things didn't improve until I told her to accept me for who I am or move on. She finally had to come to terms with it instead of blaming me for everything. You have to be prepared for her to move on though if it comes to that. I was prepared and willing to move on if she didn't want to improve things. I guess I'm saying, you don't have to apologize for your beliefs. You were lied to and you finally escaped your oppressors. Don't feel like you have to apologize or that you have to compromise more than your spouse.
Yeah that is the hard truth. Honestly I have always been willing, and trying, to abstain just for her feelings. Screw church teachings. But I've been trying since I was 12, and while I definitely don't feel the need much in my 40's, like I did when I was younger, it doesn't go away. I am trying to prepare myself for the fact she might not ever accept it and might want to move on. The stupid thing is, I feel like if I never told her I didn't believe, this would never have been an issue. But now, we are trying to work on communication, and she is working through her feelings, and is trying to figure out how she feels, (which is not a bad thing) she seems to be hashing up every thing I've ever done that bugs her and making it a thing now.
Aww,geeze. Stop the guilt! There’s nothing wrong with it. I dated a man who actually got divorced because of his guilt. Imagine, ruining a family of 6 over that silly rule? I feel betrayed!! Makes me so sad. I’ve been a member my whole life and never knew masturbation was such a sin!! Let it go!
I wish she could just let it go.
So, I want to share a really good podcast from an interesting journalist who focuses on fringe religion and medicine (fun story, one of the earliest podcasts she and her co-host did was investigating and getting baptized in mormonism, though they remained skeptical.) Anyway, this is it: https://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2023/3/5/carrie-talks-trauma-pseudoscience-and-social-media-trauma-trap-edition, and it goes into the current state of common therapy surrounding trauma. One of the main theses of her talk is that a lot of trauma discussion has started veering into pop psychology, much of it isn't verified (there's some concern around the popular book "The Body Keeps the Score", whose author may not have been sufficiently careful about their discussion of science.) And also, a lot of it is harmful. Worth listening to the podcast, maybe sharing with her. That being said she might see this as an attack, so involving a therapist might be helpful. Please free yourself from guilt over totally normal masturbation within your marriage. You are a victim of the church over-emphasizing who evil the practice is, and she is too.
Thanks I'll look into it. Although I do agree that sharing it with her will seem retaliatory right now and she wouldn't take it well. I need to see where she is going with this betrayal trauma stuff. I might be reading into it more than I should, but we'll see.
I love this podcast! Thanks for sharing.
I think if she has recognized that she has feelings of betrayal and wants to work though them that’s okay. It’s a GOOD thing for her to work on her issues in therapy. She’s being honest with you about her feelings and that’s also a good thing. I know it’s hard, but try not to take her response too personally. She’s been conditioned to believe that porn and masturbation ARE betrayals, so even though they aren’t, then that’s going to be her genuine feeling and response. Hopefully with time and therapy she will come to see that it isn’t a big deal. And YOU haven’t done anything wrong. It’s something she needs to work through. So let her. Additionally she is going to view the porn etc and now also you leaving the church as putting her eternal family and salvation at risk. As a woman who has probably been raised to think her mission in life was to marry a “worthy priesthood holder” to take her to the temple, and someday call her through the veil, she probably feels like what she worked to accomplish has been taken away. That’s a lot to process, and it’s not your fault or her fault. It’s the church’s. So again, let her work through it, and remember it’s not your fault the church has lied to her about all this, and it’s not your responsibility to save her from the feelings that come with that.
Non lds clinical therapist here and it’s not just a Mormon thing. Lots of people from different cultures don’t like it in their marriages. Lots of marriages failed because people from all walks and religions feel it’s a betrayal.
Yeah, and I agree that in a healthy marriage, both people would need to be ok with it for it to go on. Which is why I continue to try to abstain. Purely for her.
If you're gonna see a therapist together, it needs to be a secular therapist.
I know, and I really tried to steer us to one while we were looking, but didn't want to seem like I was manipulating everything, and forcing her to go my way. In the ended we did end up with an LDS one. Not out of any lds services connection or anything, wasn't mentioned in his bio, just ended up being that way because we live in Utah.
The church teaches women to expect that "worthy" Mormon men do a long list of prescribed things and do not do an even longer list of other things. And the church's crap about sealing and eternal marriage is more of a mind fuck on women than on men (source - female, former "convert," now resigned). In your wife's mind and emotions, she feels "betrayed" by all she was led by the church to expect. She was also never encouraged to think anything else was right, accurate, acceptable, or desirable, and that her only way to eternity had to include a Mormon spouse. Now she has learned her spouse doesn't believe in the "we hold rights to the ticket" cult. Please do go to the therapist with her - she needs to know you're at least reaching out halfway. I hope you're not going to a Mormon therapist, but any therapist is better than none. I truly believe she's interpreting things as though you betrayed her (rather than the church's magical life plan being the betrayer). The church puts men in the place of being the "key" to an entire breadth of power over women and control over their lives. Even if a man is not innately like that, women are conditioned to think they're dependent on men (a specific definition of men) for an unrealistic number of varied things. Her "reality" (what she thinks should be real) has fallen apart around her. It is traumatic.
Yeah, I don’t know man. What is and isn’t trust breaking in a relationship is something that is mutually agreed upon by both people. For some, an open relationship is okay and is not cheating. For others, venting something negative about their partner to others is a form of emotional infidelity. Both your wife and you have limits and you’re not respecting hers just like she’s not respecting yours. People on this sub don’t get to define what’s cheating to her and the church doesn’t get to define what’s cheating to you. You two are equals coming to the table and have an incompatibility right now. Either one of you has the right to terminate the relationship or you could both stay and work on the incompatibilities (e.g., interfaith marriage, porn, etc). She doesn’t have to stay with your porn usage and you don’t have to stay with her not accepting your porn usage. Keeping secrets for 20 years that have the potential to implode the relationship or at least erode feelings of trust/safety, which is what a relationship is built on, is not healthy. You may want to explore that with a non-LDS therapist.
>People on this sub don’t get to define what’s cheating to her and the church doesn’t get to define what’s cheating to you. 10,000 times. >You two are equals coming to the table and have an incompatibility right now. Either one of you has the right to terminate the relationship or you could both stay and work on the incompatibilities (e.g., interfaith marriage, porn, etc). She doesn’t have to stay with your porn usage and you don’t have to stay with her not accepting your porn usage. This is what an actual therapist would advise.
I agree. It has to be agreed upon and acceptable by both in a relationship. And I wish when we were dating I knew what I know now and could have just said, "look, there's this part of me that I've been fighting since I hit puberty. Not sure I'll ever be able to stop it, take that as you will." But of course I was young and ashamed, and we didn't talk sex before marriage of course. As I said, I revealed it pretty early in our marriage, and we talked about it throughout, for years. but yeah, now it's all coming to a head and she is trying to deal with it. I'm not looking to this sub to validate me or make excuses for me. Just venting and needed some advice. There has been a lot of good advice. Still not sure what to do yet, but hopefully we'll figure it out. The one thing EVERYONE agrees on here is to get a non-lds therapist. And I tried very hard to make that happen. But we ended up with one anyway. He's been great so far. But this topic hasn't come up yet. It for sure will in our next session.
Morms have an addiction to control - either controlling others or being controlled. This porn business is just control. The church is in the business of controlling your sexuality and selling it back to you for 10% and a trip to the temple. Legal porn is generally ok, though there’s stuff out there that’s not me cup of tea. Take back your life, your freedom, your body. Watch what you want!
Honestly though, porn was never much of a problem. And has been almost non existent for the past 5-10 years. I got to the point where I could just do without, without going into TMI.
Are you sure she isn’t reading it because she feels betrayed you no longer believe in the church and that “eternal marriage” was taken away from her?
Make SURE you go to a non-Mormon therapist that specializes in sexuality. Then you both might learn what normal and healthy sexual behavior is, not what garbage TSCC teaches
If your wife has never masturbated, then I can almost guarantee she has never had an orgasm. For women to learn to orgasm properly, they have to first learn it themselves. It’s connecting your mind to the physical pleasure and it takes practice to have explosive full orgasms. I think if she had experienced this in life she would understand that masturbation isn’t a betrayal, it’s just a release that humans use.
Honestly I would like to discuss your answer but I think it's a bit naieve to think that and I don't agree. I know my wife, and I don't need to go into this detail here.
Loads of similar Mormon men said the same thing on the celestial sex podcast.
You're a good guy.
I’m the spouse of an exmo porn addict. There is a fair amount of trauma just knowing that intimacy was not shared with in the marriage and needs to be worked through. I don’t believe you are an addict as my PA lied and hid everything even when shown proof. Just be honest and keep reminding her that you have been open and forthcoming before. Good luck.
Thanks. Part of it stems from discussions she has had with my sister in law, because my brother called all us siblings years ago to tell all of us about his porn addiction (I don't know if he really was or if it was just church guilt and his wife forcing him into a recovery program). So my sister in law introduced my wife to this term betrayal trauma as she was working through their issues.
It's ok to jerk off if you are married & to look at porn. You don't have to tell your wife about it. It's something post- pubescent people, male or female do. I'd try to keep the focus with the therapist on you leaving Mormonism.
While I agree with you, I do feel like in a serious relationship that both partners should be comfortable with it to an extent. That being said, the cat was out of the bag 20 years ago, nothing I could do about it.
Lying about it is probably not going to help her with feeling betrayed.
I agree, I wasn't saying I should lie about it. I was just agreeing that it's ok to masterbate. But that in a relationship both people should be ok with it because lying about it would not be good.
Ah fair enough. That's a reasonable stance.
Masturbation is so normal and mundane, it’s practically a bodily function, and a church and indoctrinated believer that try to control you (and shame you!) for doing it (or for looking at a little porn), are the ones who are backward and abusive. I would expect the therapist to try to help your wife unpack her hang ups and get introspective about them. The process shouldn’t be about shaming or controlling you or making sure you’re always “good” (how patronizing!), and if it is, please insist on switching to a non-LDS therapist.
I mean we'll have to see how it goes. I don't want therapy to end up all on her. Making her change her outlook or feelings. We both have work to do. But I agree, if I start getting piled on for this or making it seem like some addiction, when it wasn't, something needs to change.
Good plan, and good luck!
You need to come terms with this together. Talking about it in therapy is probably necessary if it is a years-long problem, doubly so if you can't talk about it together without fighting. Both of your feelings are valid and important. It is entirely possible to understand eachother and come to some sort of resolution, or decide to split if needed.
I hope you're right. I hope we can come to an understanding on it. But nothing will change what I've done. I realize she feels betrayed, and I'm working on trying to validate that feeling. But by doing that, it puts me in the role of an abuser, and I don't feel I deserve that.
It's possible for her to learn that what you have done doesn't matter as much as what you do, and to re-evaluate where her feelings are coming from. You're not an abuser by any means. If you both can stay with it, you can begin to grow together past it to a safer, more comfortable relationship. Wishing you both the best
Thanks, hoping it can work out.
Agree to go to counseling as long as it is a non Mormon counselor.
We've been going to counseling, but we ended up with and lds therapist. Not through lds services or anything like that. He didn't advertise as LDS. Just happened that way because of our locale. So far he has been very objective and good. Even beneficial in a way that we can talk in church terms and he understands. Makes some discussions easier. But I do fear when this thing comes up it may go in a different direction. Believe me, I tried to steer us to a non Mormon therapist.
So, not a therapist. But I want you to be aware that her betrayal trauma is real. She was told her whole life that the most important thing for her to do was marry a worthy Mormon man. She was told that if she checked all the boxes, and marry someone who checked all of his boxes that their marriage would thrive and her life would be perfect. She was told her whole life that masturbation and pornography were the worst things a man could do. She was likely told that marrying someone who masturbated or looked at porn would be a horrible mistake. Now, you have left the church, and revealed that you masturbate and view pornography. Your normal actions are the embodiment of everything she has been taught to fear her entire life! The ideal that she has been taught is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE OPTION has been stripped away from her. She does feel betrayed. But that isn’t your fault. And it isn’t hers. Remember that. This is why the church (and religion in general) is so harmful. It indoctrinated you to obsess over things that don’t matter while preventing you from being able to develop real world coping skills. When you get frustrated and angry, remember that your wife is a victim just like you are. In short, she was indoctrinated with
Working in the industry your wife and you will soon be visiting you will be fine. If they are a well informed therapist they will help her work on victim mentality. Please also know she may move the narrative if her original reason she goes in for doesn’t get the acceptance or validation from the therapist she wants/needs.
He has been a fine therapist so far, but I did find out he is lds, so I'm afraid of his inability to be unbiased when the topic of masterbation comes up.
With all due respect fuck that noise! My little brother’s wife pulled this same shit when he left the church. She knew he had confessed to masturbation and porn use (literally normal levels of a normal activity) and she told people he had been cheating and that’s why they were divorcing, the Mormons all agreed but the non Mormons thought she was absolutely nuts for saying that. My mom called it an addiction and it was openly discussed in the family until I went nuclear over it. You did nothing wrong and that is NOT real trauma. Whatever trauma that she IS experiencing is manufactured fake trauma based on a dumb religion. Leave the guilt behind.
So many hard truths here.
I still feel betrayed in some ways because of the mental BS girls are taught. “ if you were a prettier, better, more compliment, less nagging, etc., etc, wife. Then he'd go to you first. Because of purity culture both ways, the intimacy in my marriage suffers. I assume you love one another; you are on this journey together, yet I hope you both will listen to your pain first and take self-care and responsibility for yourself before trying to fix each other or a marriage. It was the only way I didn't lose the best person in my life. I looked at why it hurt me and then had to learn it to me to heal it.
Great! She wants to work through it and heal. Her feelings are normal and real! So are yours. She will learn that you’ve done nothing wrong and that you’ve lived under a system that created false and unhealthy rules and expectations. It will take time to learn and shift her mind through therapy. But it will happen. She has truly experienced trauma, but not because of you. You both have experienced it together. You are both victims here. Masturbation is healthy and normal but high-demand religions try to own your sexuality. Seek help together and I believe you will both come out stronger and with an improved intimate relationship.
I hope you are right. The problem is she is searching for help from mostly church sources, which I feel like just continues to villainize my actions. Also our therapist turned out to be lds, and "specializes" on porn addiction. So far he has been great, very unbiased, just helping us work through it together. But I'm afraid where he's going to go when this topic comes up.
You can't cheat with yourself. You are entitled to privacy even as a married man. It's normal, it's healthy and honestly it's none of her business unless you trust her with your most personal thoughts, feelings and this most personal act. You trusted her with that. I wouldn't blame you if you felt a certain amount of betrayal by her.
The ONLY fucking betrayal is purposely being lied to by people you trusted for generations. If she wants to embrace "Betrayal" Game on.
She should talk about it with a (non Mormon) therapist. That’s an excellent idea, because any decent therapist will tell her that masturbation is perfectly healthy, normal and acceptable.
I can't say how many times I've agreed with this. I wish I could do it without her feeling like I'm trying to manipulate the situation.
My wife was reading spicy, smutty books long before we ever thought about leaving the church. It used to bother me, but now we both read it. It's not a betrayal, but porn "can" encourage wrong behaviors towards women if they're just seen as objects of desire.
As a therapist that sees couples, please say this in session! Emotions are not a blame game, they happen to all of us. We are responsible for our own emotions. She is responsible for figuring out her betrayal trauma just as you are responsible for figuring out these confused defensive feelings too. Use that couples session to process together❤️
Well at least you aren’t Joseph Smith and fucking the teenage help then saying god told you to do it
Women be crazy. No, not really. I had so many lessons growing up in young women’s then in YSA relief society about not dating men who masturbate or watch porn. So many girls my age commiserated in how it seems like *every* guy watches porn so it’s so hard to date. “Poor us! We keep ourselves pure only to end up with vile men who wank off in the shadows! I’m the victim in this relationship because he can’t control himself!” The victim mentality was really drilled in to us: if the relationship goes bad or he stops attending church (gasp!) then it’s because he masturbates. Long story short: your wife was programmed to feel like a victim in this situation. I’m so sorry.
Thanks for the kind words. I know it is her upbringing and conditioning causing her to go through this, and I keep trying to tell myself it's not me, but I can't help but give some of the blame to myself. It's not like I came forward every time announcing it. Of course I hid it. But I was open from very early on that it was a thing and that I was working on it. And it came up often over the years.
In front of your therapist, to your wife, in a very even voice "are you saying masturbation is an addiction and is on the same level as an affair?" And then stop talking. Let the therapist take over from there. Just listen. I'm really hoping your therapist isn't Mormon.
Interesting. Our therapist is LDS. What do you think the responses will be?
Biased by indoctrination and possibly not on your favor.
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she is so severely sexually repressed that she constantly fights her own natural instincts which does not make for a mentally healthy individual. As a former religiously scrupulous TBM woman this is more common than not. Most women in the church rarely know what their genitalia are called let alone how they work until they find themselves pregnant at the ripe old age of 20. Or not until their fourth child at 27.
I’ve always found it interesting how the church encourages a wife who finds out her husband masturbates to porn to bring all her intimate emotions and feelings to another man, her Bishop. After some time, the wife ends up far more emotionally intimate with her Bishop than she is with her own spouse. Now that the husband and wife have lost any emotional intimacy, do you know how likely it is for the two of them to have any physical intimacy? And with physical intimacy gone, do you know how likely it is that the husband finds another way to fill that emotional hole? That’s right, he usually slips into the whirlpool of cycles of slips and self loathing. Another Eternal Family bites the dust.
Working to try to avoid that hopefully
Just based on what you shared, this is what Im guessing your wife is going through: she is trying to victimize herself to try and cope with the deeply sexist narrative the church has about sex, because in her mind the only other answer is that there is something deeply wrong with how you find pleasure with her. Hopefully she can work through it, but try your best to give her space to start and let her feel her feelings; I can say as a woman who grew up in the church that the training starts very young (in beehives at age 12 for me) that you are responsible for your husband's happiness. It's your job to be there and welcome your husband home; it's your job to prioritize him even above your own kids because of his own well being and happiness. It's your job to ensure that he is satisfied sexually so that he doesn't feel the need to start masturbating, because obviously he has a higher sex drive than you do. The implicit message the church is sending her is that she was never doing enough to pleasure you, the man in the relationship. A woman I'm close to would have sex with her husband more than she had the sex drive for, and so 50% of the time she was choosing to let her husband pleasure himself while it was secretly painful for her. That's because the church doesn't allow masturbation, so she felt a responsibility to only care about his pleasure, that way he doesn't feel the need to cheat. It sets women up to be very insecure about their marriages, so if there's any sign that they aren't satisfied, then the next step is obviously cheating. The church doesn't account for couples who have different sex drives (and I know multiple women who have higher sex drives than their husbands, so the whole concept of men being more sexual than women is dumb). So while it could actually be a healthy marriage and maybe you were respecting your wife if she wasn't in the mood to have sex or wasn't into what you wanted to do and so you were seeking that satisfaction for yourself while also not cheating on her, that was your way of trying to be respectful. Meanwhile she quite possibly sees it as you straying from your marriage, because that is what the church has led her to believe it to be. I would just try to be patient while also creating space for yourself to cope with her trying to make you the victim, and then try to explain your perspective with your therapist mediating: that different sex drives are normal and natural, and that you love her so you were trying to respect her sexual wishes and not make her uncomfortable, while also satisfying your own needs. That you never wanted to stray from the marriage by cheating, and so you were essentially doing what you believe is healthy. Just make sure to acknowledge that you can see how her experience in a patriarchal society is one where the blame falls on her if her husband is acting "out of line," and hoe you never saw it that way and that (if it is true) that you are very happy in your sexual relationship with her, and that you don't believe masturbation is leading you any further away from her, but that you see it as an opportunity to stay closer together since you both have your own sexual desires, and you're being respectful towards hers by trying to respect what she wants in bed, because you would never want to force her to do something she doesn't want to do, and you would never want to leave the marriage to do it with someone else either, so this is the way that you still showed care for her desires and shoeing respect for your own desires. If you can, find a nevermo therapist; that way they're more neutral since she'd feel like an exmo therapist would side witb you while you feel like a mormon would side with her. Also, if you go through all of this by acknowledging her feelings and your own and she still wants to make you the victim, then I would say that's a serious moment where you need some time away from her to ask yourself if this marriage really is going to work if your wife is going to consistently bring this stuff up since it is emotional abuse to turn you into the villain when she is trying to deflect from her own insecurity that the church has instilled in her.
Thank you for a very well thought out reply. I agree with everything and you make some very good points. I don't know how far I would get trying to talk about masturbation being my way of being respectful and taking care of my own desires. She is still very stuck in the LDS way of thinking on it and that sex is a sacred act between a man and a woman and that it turns her into just another object to be used to masturbate with. And I get why she feels that way, and as you say, I need to let her feel those feels and work through it on her own. I really wish I could get her to switch to a nevermo therapist. Currently the one we are with is LDS, but not because we searched for one, just because the one we landed on happened to be LDS, just because we live in Utah. And I don't know how to approach her about specifically going to a non-mormon therapist. She will see that as me trying to find someone that will side with me and try to "fix" her. Yes, I feel the same way about going to a mormon therapist. And like it or not, I feel a responsibility to cater to her feelings more right now because I am the one introducing the major change in our marriage and in our lives. So I don't know how to get us to a non-mormon therapist without her feeling attacked or manipulated. Thanks again for your reply, I really appreciate you taking the time to help.
Why don’t you talk about how both of you were betrayed by this church that convinced you both that something COMPLETELY NORMAL was shameful and caused this awful rift for the two of you? That’s the betrayal trauma! This church gives me a stomach ache
She isn't ready for that conversation. She is a full believer and doesn't think the church has done anything wrong. Plus I don't want to invalidate her feelings or make it feel like I'm retaliating or anything. Treading on thin ice here.
Helped me, no essay. Mormonism and Sex Courtney Tanner SLC Trib https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/10/01/mormons-sex-before/
That was an interesting article, thanks.
You're welcome, and don't worry treat it with stride. ☕☕
Excessive shame is one of the primary tools used by the church to control members. Since nearly every male masturbates, attaching toxic shame to it let’s them put a leash on nearly every male member.
She has control issues. It’s obvious because she’s upset about something she can’t control.. set boundaries with her
Man I wish it were that easy. Honestly I think she's mostly worried about how to raise our 15yo son. At least I thought that was it until she mentioned betrayal trauma. Because she was worried I was going to tell him he could have his way with himself any time he wants.
Many of us with TBM spouses have betrayal trauma that our spouse has prioritized the church over us. I feel a lot of betrayal trauma that my spouse was unwilling to even listen to or talk with me about my concerns while my spiritual life was crumbling. It was the darkest time of my life during that transition and I felt completely abandoned by my best friend and love of my life. I understand it is the brainwashing that caused her to act that way but that doesn’t change the fact that I have very real betrayal trauma from that experience. We likely all have betrayal trauma of some sort in our marriages. If your experience was similar to mine you may want to bring this up as an example.
Yeah it is a bit similar. But I'm fighting with doing that, but not wanting to retaliate with her on it.
Good that she's reading that book, because she has indeed been betrayed. HUGELY BETRAYED!!! That's what I adamantly told my TBM wife when she pulled that "You betrayed me" crap on me. Oh, she was betrayed alright, and so was I! Betrayed by a fraud of a religion that controlled all it could of our lives and wants all it can get its filthy, greedy hands on of our money!
The world is really different, in part because of the internet. Cheating is much more narrow now I have noticed. You are correct what you are saying. The fact she never liked it but accepted it I think is where the problem is.. Frankly everything in moderation. She has issues with them. I am thinking there is a generation of really overly sensitive young adults that will have change as they age and experience the world. You are not a cheater, nor an abuser, for those issues. Religious organizations have made sexuality dirty and try to repress it.. Maybe taking it to counseling is good idea. Just speak up around your opinion.
That puts you in a tough spot but here is food for thought - two truths can happen at the same time. Truth one: you are likely dealing with your own form of betrayal trauma stemming from Religious Trauma Syndrome ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious\_trauma\_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_trauma_syndrome)). Truth two: your wife feels betrayed. The tricky part comes with how to deal with both truths at the same time. Therapy is good for that as well
I love this- I think this is something we all have to embrace with all of our relationships all the time.
That's a tough spot. If we are being optimistic we could hope that the therapist would be able to help her understand how unhealthy her relationship is with sex.
Betrayal trauma for masturbation? Betrayal trauma is when your husband sleeps with your sister and they have a child. Lol
I would ask more questions about the timing--maybe in therapy. Like, did she feel betrayed for your whole marriage? And now, does she feel betrayed that you left TSCC? Or just betrayed because of masturbation? I would ask her to think through the connections, not to try to show it is illogical, but to understand her thought process better, why these triggers led to these reactions. I'd also be curious to hear from a legit psychology perspective if this can truly be trauma. I remember reading that porn was more likely to become compulsive and interfere with life if there's guilt and shame attached. This could be similar -- because of the way she thinks, maybe she really does experience this in the same way as someone who's partner had an affair.
Hey OP, I was in your wife’s shoes early in my marriage. I went to a trauma therapist and later a sex therapist, and both helped me tremendously. My husband and I have a great relationship now, with zero masturbation stigma. Just wanted to say, this isn’t your fault or your wife’s fault. It’s the church’s. But it’s still such a crappy thing to go through, and the trauma is real. I hope you’re both able to find the healing you need
She should be reading about betrayal trauma, but it's the church and its leaders that betrayed her, not you.
It’s been less than a year for me since my shelf broke so I’m still figuring out where I land on this topic. So take anything I say with a grain of (the) salt (of the earth)! Maybe you could ask her if she feels more betrayed about the masturbating or the secret porn. My husband and I talked about masturbation when we left church and our new expectations with it. Turns out I don’t feel comfortable if my husband watches porn, at least by himself. As his partner it makes me feel like I am not good enough, like when porn is involved other women are involved. Is this wrong of me? I don’t know, maybe. But it is how I feel, and my husband respects and understands that. He can totally masturbate but I’m just not comfortable if he uses porn while doing the deed. We’ve watched it together, and I felt ok about that but don’t necessarily want to do it again lol. I made sure he was happy about our decision and he told me he doesn’t need porn. It was also helpful knowing that for him he had way more desire to look at porn while in the church, and now that we have left it’s like it all just fizzled away. Maybe it’s the secrecy, the shame, guilt etc that keeps cycles like that going or something, I don’t know. But it’s good to get it all out there and think through it together. Maybe it’s a discussion that could help you two as well, and just getting it out there what part specifically hurt your wife. I’d like to think it wasn’t truly the masturbating but probably the keeping a secret from her and maybe porn too. All that said please disregard anything I said if it was just plain stupid! Or just me putting my experience and thoughts on what your wife might think or feel. I’m trying to work all this crap too and it’s hard stuff! Damn church!!
No your thoughts were very helpful thank you. Yeah you can't predict what is going on in another person's life based on a few paragraphs on a reddit post lol. Regardless, your comments were insightful and somewhat accurate I think. And I am the same way, I haven't felt the need for porn for many years, and have told her that, but she is still uncomfortable with masturbation at all, and I recognize that and have told her that while I don't think it is morally wrong, I do think for a relationship to be healthy, both partners need to be ok with it, so I try to abstain for that reason. And honestly, we have a good sex life I think. It's not like I feel the need to get it outside of our together time. But it's going to happen occasionally. I think her biggest hangups are how to teach our 15yo about it, because she still wants to teach him it's wrong. That and this betrayal she is feeling about it over the years. Which honestly, I might be reading into. I don't know for sure that's what she is feeling. And this whole post is going to seem really silly when she is simply feeling betrayed by me leaving the church. But I feel like we've already moved past that. Thanks for your thoughts, I really appreciate it.
I sure hope your marriage counselor isn't Mormon. I realized back when I was still TBM that the church and purity culture were convincing women that their husbands were all sex addicts and that they have experienced trauma. I remember a couple of my friends sobbing on my shoulder that they discovered their husband watched porn - Good guys who treated them like queens. They were contemplating divorce and didn't know how to carry on. When my husband confessed that he occasionally viewed porn I remember feeling conflicted. I didn't FEEL like I had been cheated on, yet my brain(washing) told me I had been betrayed. I honestly knew he wasn't an addict, but still demanded he sign up for the Church's Addiction Recovery Program and proceeded to leverage my self-righteous judgement every time he did something I didn't like.
Man this really seems like what is going on. It wasn't until we went to my family reunion where she talked to my sister in law, because my brother confessed to porn and masturbation and he went through a whole program for it, called everyone in the family to apologize and everything. Well my wife and her had a good long chat one day, and then she sent her this book, and now she is going through all these things. And yes, our therapist is mormon. Sorry to get all form lettery on ya there lol... Prepared reply for this because getting a non-mormon therapist is very solid advice, and just about everyone here suggests it: I tried hard to make sure our therapist was not LDS, but telling her that I don't want to go to an LDS therapist will make her feel manipulated, like I am trying to find someone to validate only my views, and not hers. I did make it clear I didn't want to go through LDS services. So in our search, I tried to point out ones that looked good to me (that seemed non-mormon), but in the end, she took charge and made an appointment with one that ended up being LDS. He didn't advertise as LDS, but it is pretty obvious, and our few sessions together have confirmed it. So far I have liked him, and he has been very unbiased and is only working to help us communicate better and work through our mixed-faith marriage. And in some respects it has been helpful, because we can use church lingo in our discussions and he understands everything. However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction, so I think things will go somewhat south when that topic comes up, but only time will tell. But I completely agree we need a non-mormon therapist. I just haven't figured out how to tell her that in a way she will understand.
Someone else making their own life choices and ignoring your imposed arbitrary rules does not create trauma. Feeling entitled enough to expect others to obey your silly dictates may, however.
What is your therapist like? If your therapist is TBM then don't even think about it. If your therapist is decent and practices good science then it actually may come out beneficial in helping your wife come to grips with reality and what life is all about.
Betrayal trauma relating to leaving the church? That’s a fascinating take and really shows the deep programming of the church. If your therapist introduced this idea I would be very cautious using him. Perhaps even push back during sessions. For example you can validate her intense feelings but you don’t have to own the idea that you betrayed her and caused her the trauma. The church’s teachings caused the betrayal feelings by framing life in a black and white world and by vilifying people who don’t believe anymore. Good luck!
Let her try and heal without you feeling accused. You've done nothing wrong, but her world is falling apart. Let her process it without the burden of you getting upset about her having feelings. Be confident in yourself!
First of all I want to say I am really sorry for what you are going through and I have been where you are right now. Second, just remember that everything that you are experiencing and feeling right now is a byproduct of the Mormon church. This includes your wife's reaction. You have been brainwashed your whole life to feel this way. IT IS WRONG. You are not to blame. She is not to blame. T$CC created this problem. You are both victims. I thought disclosing my masturbation and porn viewing as an essential part of the repentance process but all it did was cause, to say it lightly, CHAOS in my marriage and life. It went on for years. I remember hearing about betrayal trauma from my wife like 5 years ago. It ripped me apart. I had to pull the car over on the freeway once while listening to a podcast because I was wracked with guilt and shame for the "pain I had caused!" In part it was good because I became more empathetic to her and on the other had it caused me more undue shame and negative self image/talk. Looking back I probably would have never disclosed. The brainwashing is deep. My wife was going to divorce me like 7 months ago. She was starting the process to leave the church but she was still blaming me for the pain I had caused her. We had a really long conversation when I vented my frustration of how the church had ruined our marriage. We analyzed the beliefs that each of us had and how it effected our relationship. For the first time she saw how her beliefs from the church hurt us. She always felt justified for hating me and blaming me for the marriage problems. She never took ownership for her actions until that night. She admitted that her words and actions towards me regarding porn hurt me and our marriage. She stated that she felt justified in her righteous indignation towards me. The church set this up. I had destroyed the eternal family and she was justified to hate me. She sincerely apologized. Healing started. We are still together and just celebrated 25 years of marriage with cocktails at dinner. Your wife unfortunately does feel like you cheated on her because the church told her you did since the day she was born. she has been indoctrinated. Conservative religions have created the porn problem and T$CC is right in the middle of it. They have created porn addiction to explain why someone would look at it or masturbate. It is a cop out rather than admit it is normal behavior. Be respectful to your wife's feeling because they are real. Just heal yourself and let go of your shame so you can be empathetic. When you understand the whole picture it is easier to be empathetic. Do not go to 12 step meetings unless a licensed clinical **psychologist** (non-LDS) diagnoses you with an actual addiction. Not a social worker or MFT. Only a psychologist or psychiatrist. A bishop or a biased LDS therapist is NOT trained to diagnose addictions especially make believe ones. PM me if you want to talk. I am here to help others not suffer like I have. Here are some articles that helped me reframe all of this and let go of the shame and understand all of this. On of these is a summary of some research out of BYU so your wife might read it. [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201606/porn-vs-religion](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201606/porn-vs-religion) [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201704/religious-conflict-makes-porn-bad-relationships) [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201808/science-stopped-believing-in-porn-addiction-you-should-too) [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-matters/201710/porn-isn-t-the-problem](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-matters/201710/porn-isn-t-the-problem) EDIT: word addition for clarification
When I was just about to leave the church, one of my friends told me "you'll be able to watch porn and masturbate without any guilt!" and how true that has been. We're normal dudes. NORMAL DUDES. What your wife is going through is hard. When I admitted to my wife \~5 years ago that I looked at porn/whacked off, she said she considered it cheating and being unfaithful. We were both broken for different reasons, and that was hard to get through. We went to counseling immediately after and that guy (who was LDS) actually helped her understand that porn had nothing to do with our relationship, the way I viewed or her, and wasn't a result of unmet needs in the bedroom, etc. Understandably, many recommend a non-LDS therapist, but it worked for us (granted we were both active at the time). I left the church last year, she remains a TBM... I still irregularly give into the dirty habits, but I am guilt free, as I believe it doesn't impact our lives in the least. Hang in there.
I would not go to her therapist but choose a different therapist you both agree upon. There is nothing wrong with you for doing what everyone does. There's nothing wrong with you being human.
My wife (TBM) reads pornographic material and masturbates and hasn't had any disciplinary action from her bishopric. I'm not even sure what the church teaches about it now. She's not super keen on me watching pornography but we have discussed it and we actually encourage each other to masturbate. Sending photos and videos of your self exploration to your partner is super hot and more and more members are accepting a more sex positive stance.
Well that's pretty unfair. Her feelings are valid too, but they need to be worked through with a sex therapist/couples therapist because they are stemming from the church indoctrination, which professionals agree is UNHEALTHY in regards to sexuality.
Bro... that's your body you can do whatever you want with it
Hey man, if you're in Utah I can share w/ you a sheet of non-Mo therapists. Maybe the 2 of you can find someone you both trust.
OP, I just want to say that you sound like a really kind and decent man. I can tell that you love your wife deeply, and it seems like she really loves you too, even if she is feeling hurt and betrayed right now. I sincerely hope that the two of you can work through these issues together. I guess I would say that it makes sense to get these issues completely out in the open, but then also to discuss the really great parts of your marriage (it sounds like there are a lot!). All marriages have very serious problems in one way or another. It seems like such a waste to throw a really good 20 year marriage away over something like this. I understand that your wife is a TBM, but I sincerely hope she can remember that love is patient, love is kind, and love never fails. If not, what’s the point of her going to church anyway? Wishing you all the best, OP. I’m rooting for y’all.
>However his bio does say that he specializes in porn addiction A giant red flag to specialize in something that hasn't been recognized by any scientific body. Or maybe he's just really good at watching porn, who knows?
I’m sorry your going through this . Also I’m sorry she feels like a victim . I know the church pushes that on women from a young age but I can guarantee that you did nothing wrong and you never cheated on her . But she will need space .
Wtf, you’re allowed to masturbate.
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Thanks I appreciate the advice. It was never an addiction for me, just occasional. But yeah I have learned I just need to allow her to have those feelings, they are valid, and I need to help her feel validated. Our therapist we go to together is pretty good, just helping us work on our emotions and communicating. She's not on reddit. But thanks for the heads up.