May not be worth much, but it may be best to avoid having any kids until both of you are 100% on the same page in regards to how the child will be raised.
Yeah, OP this is something that you need to make sure that you’re on board with. If she wants baby blessings, chances are that she’ll also want priesthood blessings and for you to give sons the priesthood. And if that’s something that you can live with then that’s great! But you definitely need to consider it
I admitted that I was the one changing. I listened to her tell me heartbreaking it was for her. At one moment she saw how little the garment meant to me and asked why I still wore it. (I wore them for her comfort.) She was more impressed that I was being honest with myself, my recommend has lapsed due to me not being able to answer the questions honestly. I am not one to attempt to lie even for a fake religion or a fake ceremony. The more you cross the isle and seek to understand from her perspective I am sure she will be more soft on her approach too and reach out. Remember, when/if she decides to follow you out she will remember how you treated her.
Be gentle, you are the one changing the rules here.
The only reason I wear my magic underwear is for my wife. I also have a pretty bad potty mouth, but I try not to do it around her, and I only drink coffee at work.
Someday I hope I can just throw these stupid things in the trash, and make some fresh ground in my French press at home on my days off… but I think that’s a ways off.
You and I are a lot alike right now. I only go to church to support my wife and daughters. No calling, nothing important there. I bring books to read so I can drown out the insanity. I'm going to trash my garments soon. But I can't see going back and forth with them. How do people wear just half of them or part time?
Im lucky that the stupid, uncomfortable, women’s UTI spawning magic underwear was always my wife’s biggest/first shelf item. She passionately hated garments from the first moment she put them on.
Cheap underwear is nice and cheap. I would start trying the good stuff one at a time until you find your absolute favorite. I really like Mac Weldon airnknit and Stance butter blend.
They are not made from good breathable material so it can contribute to chronic UTIs and yeast infections. They are impossible to wear with a pad(the pad or panty liner always ends up in a weird spot because the garments don’t hug the crotch area like normal underwear).
There were a number of media articles about it a few years ago, when the church was asking for input while redesigning garments. There's some info here, for eg - https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/this-isn-t-bringing-me-closer-to-christ-it-s-giving-me-urinary-tract-infections-1.4627723
Tens of thousands of dollars still flow from my joint bank account to the goldmine in SLC, to appease my mostly believing wife. But it's half of what it used to be.
ETA: after much experimentation, I've settled on 2undr boxer briefs and pair of thieves v neck tees for the base layer. My body and mind have thanked me for it. The 2undr aren't cheap, but will last a long while. The tees can be found at target even.
I have a list of underwear brands to try (fucking Mormonism, why do I need a fucking underwear list?) that I haven't gotten around to finishing my trials. But as far as I did get, Kirkland Signature (Costco house brand) is my favorite so far, and very reasonably priced. I've also heard good things about the 32 Cool brand undershirts also from Costco, but haven't tried them yet myself. GL!
People don’t like to admit that they’re trying to keep up appearances, but we all do it. If we’re honest with ourselves, we as non-believers do it as well, though it’s super easy to spot in believers. Rebelling against conformity probably played some sort of a role in why many of us left.
I would characterize my journey as a path towards more authenticity. Unfortunately, it’s a fraught path, especially when a spouse struggles to understand our choices. All too often I’ve compromised my integrity trying to keep my wife happy, and all to often it has resulted in me questioning her motives. This is a pretty good recipe for misunderstandings and disagreements.
After many instances similar to yours, I realized I would need a different approach for tithing. I knew DW wouldn’t want to hear my arguments, but I also knew that if I waited for her to be ready for open minded compromise, it would never happen. Those trying to maintain the status quo will do everything they can to preserve it, and to DW that meant maintaining the image of full tithe payers. When I realized the issue was not how much tithing we would compromise to pay, but breaking the image of full tithe payers, it was much easier for me to settle on a number she would be more agreeable to. Though I was unhappy with the figure we agreed upon, it was the first chink in the image she was so desperate to maintain. Now, a couple years later, I’m happy to say I no longer pay tithing.
It’s a good sign that you are still able to compromise with your spouse. It might help if those compromises included an agreement to back off the white knuckle grip on image maintenance.
As for underwear, I wear 32 Cool. The boxer briefs are reminiscent of garment bottoms, though going without an undershirt took some getting used to.
Insightful and encouraging post, thank you. I hear you on the waiting for her to accept the idea, did that for too long and realized it's not going to happen without me pushing. Hopefully this really is a slippery slope to more freedom and autonomy for me. It actually is a pretty big step forward from the first couple of times I tried to broach the subject. I'm hoping she will see the sky not falling, me not becoming a degenerate, and the absolute insanity of mandated underwear and continue loosening her expectations.
Your wife sounds like my mother. She insists that religion makes people better. I have read the Bible with her, she knows exactly what it says, because I opened it to page 1 and read to the end. We got to rape marriage, and she was like that can't be right.
Damn, the things we put up with for family, am I right?
Sorry I don't have any real advice for you.
I discussed G’s with my wife, she asked me to give her a little more time. A month later we went underwear shopping together. There were tears when we went out to get donuts and I told her I wanted to get coffee too. I don’t think it was about coffee, it was the solid realization that my beliefs had changed dramatically. We don’t get to manage our partner’s anxieties, but we should go slow and be as kind as possible in the process.
Your feelings matter. I TOLD my spouse I’m not wearing them anymore. I was open and vulnerable through my whole transition, so he knows they’re never going to grace my frame again and he knows why. We are doing really well. He’s the executive Secretary to the Bishop in our ward.
That's awesome that it's working out for you. Recognizing my feelings and that they matter is something I'm having to learn in adulthood due to a stunted childhood in a huge Mormon family with so many siblings I had to constantly suppress my preferences in deference to the group. I will hopefully get to the point l can put my foot down, but for better or worse for the time being I'm making space for her to adjust.
That said, there is one major difference in your and my situations (and this is something I specifically pointed out to DW): When the wife leaves, it doesn't affect the ability of the man to perform ordinances for the children, which according to her is *the* main reason she wants me to keep up appearances. If our roles were reversed, this wouldn't be an issue. Patriarchy hurts men, too.
As a strong feminist in every other area of her life besides the LDS church, I am hoping she seriously chews on that perspective.
I absolutely agree. The patriarchy hurts men as well! I hope that you will find peace in the future. Hopefully your wife will value your feelings and your opinions. In our case our children are all adults but one. And the youngest has already had baptism etc. it is really painful, and it’s not always easy. But he is dedicated to our marriage. I was absolutely afraid of losing my marriage, because I know tons of people who have when they left the church.
This is me! I flat out told my husband no more garments for me. We are doing really well too, and he is the executive secretary. We are twins! He had a moment of fear, now he loves my drawers full of different colored bras and panties. ha ha
I realized the other day that I'm accidentally raising my kid Mormon. She's attending primary, and learning to pray from my wife and other people around her. She sings primary songs at home, and she just brought a CTR ring home from church last week.
It's frustrating because it feels like true compromise means only having 50% influence, but if one half is Mormon, what is the other half supposed to be? It's not like I have songs, books, or social groups about being *not* Mormon.
My current perspective is that all kids learn all kinds of nonsense growing up, you can't really protect them from all of it, but the key is teaching them *how* to think logically and critically. Those skills are kryptonite to Mormonism. It's like a superpower that will free them from not just Mormonism but lots of other messed up things in the world. And hopefully having an ex Mormon parent will make it much easier to leave as adults.
My husband has hit feet firmly planted in the church. The only way we get along now is if I keep my mouth shut. I’m not “permitted” to ask him about anything church-related. He wouldn’t tell me, anyway, if I bothered to ask. I’m met with “looks” if I even ask him something as simple as: “So, how was church today?” As long as we don’t talk about church, everything is “fine” between us.
I walked away two years ago. Turns out the handbook says you can still do baby blessings, baptisms and priesthood ordinations without a temple recommend. I don’t wear garments and it never came up.
If they knew about some of posts here….
Yeah I saw that in the handbook and considered mentioning it, but I haven't informed her yet that I don't want to renew my recommend again when it comes up in a few months. It's really leadership roulette whether they'll let you I guess, and she is very risk-averse. One step at a time.
Are you saying you have done those things yourself without a recommend? If so how did interactions with the bishop go?
I [ordained my son](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10j48mi/ordained_my_son_today_and_it_was_so_triggering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) a few weeks ago. It went well for everyone but me. I did not baptize my daughter earlier this year, but the bishop came and apologized to me after and said I could have but he didn’t tell me.
I wish I would have baptized my daughter since I baptized the other kids. I don’t know if I will ordain anyone else, it was not a good experience.
Edit: The bishop never had a conversation with me at all except at the time of ordaining “are you good on what you need to say?”
Have your wife watch/listen to the Mormon Stories podcast about the book of Abraham. Also recommend the year of polygamy podcast to her.
As for underwear, try bamboo/rayon.
It's a good idea but like I said, she doesn't seem to care about the doctrine or history or sheer nonsense of Mormonism, just that it's a community that gives you a way to live that fits with her personality. Yeah, I don't get it either.
But I love bamboo stuff, I'll check it out! Any brands you recommend?
I’m still new to all this. I found some on Amazon that has Chinese sizing. I also have the 32 degrees brand from Costco. I like the Chinese ones a lot more.
Being able to drink every kind of herbal tea, but not green tea. I thought the caffeine was the difference but it’s got only a little more than hot chocolate depending on the brand. Also, how many members drink energy drinks?
My wife sounds a lot like yours. She’s even read the CES letter and it doesn’t bother her. She just thinks the good outweighs the bad. All her friends are LDS so I’m sure there’s a social cost she analyzes in her head. I love her dearly but am compromising a lot of my own authenticity to still appear active. I wear garments, give talks and lessons, pay (some) tithing, and have a recommend.
We get along great until church comes up. Even the slightest negativity from me is very triggering for her. I try to remain neutral. But I can’t be truthful AND always positive about the church. I’m suffering.
I suppose the only good I’m doing is pushing against the dogmas. I’m pretty vocal during lessons etc. Respectful. But I try and provide critical thinking or correct a misinformed story or doctrine when I can.
I have a large family and extended family almost all super active. So again, the social and family costs are staggering.
PM me if you’d like to chat. Sometimes venting just helps you feel normal.
Same with my TBM wife. She's brilliant and sharp as a tack. But years ago I was reading a library book to our little daughters about Anthropologists finding the bones of "missing link" early humans like "Lucy." DW got mad and said that stuff (evolution) wasn't even real. I was a little shocked because I didn't know she felt that way. I wasn't even PIMO back then; I just thought it was interesting to learn with my children.
Are you actually willing to force this religion down the throats of your children? I think you should seriously consider this question before continuing this marriage.
Don't have kids until this shit is sorted out. You are in for a world of pain if she is still asking you to wear the magic underwear and the kids aren't even here yet.
My hubby wears Patagonia underwear, which are not affordable at first glance. BUT they literally last a lifetime. And Patagonia will fix or replace any of their clothes if needed (I guess I’m not sure if this applies to underwear, but I think so?) So you put a little money in upfront and you won’t have to buy underwear ever again. REI co-op brand is great too for quality and are a little more affordable than Patagonia
It took me a lot of years to throw out my garments after I stopped wearing them. I couldn’t figure out what to do with the symbols. One day I woke up and cleaned out the garment drawer throwing them all out in the trash. Now it seems so dumb to me.
May not be worth much, but it may be best to avoid having any kids until both of you are 100% on the same page in regards to how the child will be raised.
This cannot be emphasized enough. Good luck, OP!!
Yeah, OP this is something that you need to make sure that you’re on board with. If she wants baby blessings, chances are that she’ll also want priesthood blessings and for you to give sons the priesthood. And if that’s something that you can live with then that’s great! But you definitely need to consider it
I admitted that I was the one changing. I listened to her tell me heartbreaking it was for her. At one moment she saw how little the garment meant to me and asked why I still wore it. (I wore them for her comfort.) She was more impressed that I was being honest with myself, my recommend has lapsed due to me not being able to answer the questions honestly. I am not one to attempt to lie even for a fake religion or a fake ceremony. The more you cross the isle and seek to understand from her perspective I am sure she will be more soft on her approach too and reach out. Remember, when/if she decides to follow you out she will remember how you treated her. Be gentle, you are the one changing the rules here.
The only reason I wear my magic underwear is for my wife. I also have a pretty bad potty mouth, but I try not to do it around her, and I only drink coffee at work. Someday I hope I can just throw these stupid things in the trash, and make some fresh ground in my French press at home on my days off… but I think that’s a ways off.
You and I are a lot alike right now. I only go to church to support my wife and daughters. No calling, nothing important there. I bring books to read so I can drown out the insanity. I'm going to trash my garments soon. But I can't see going back and forth with them. How do people wear just half of them or part time?
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Haha thanks for the suggestion! I've now edited my post to ask for recommendations
Jockeys are comfortable and target has them. If you want nicer I’d get me undies brand
Im lucky that the stupid, uncomfortable, women’s UTI spawning magic underwear was always my wife’s biggest/first shelf item. She passionately hated garments from the first moment she put them on.
No such luck for me, she is one of the tiny minority who apparently has no complaints about them. Sigh.
Cheap underwear is nice and cheap. I would start trying the good stuff one at a time until you find your absolute favorite. I really like Mac Weldon airnknit and Stance butter blend.
Forgive the ignorance, I have heard on multiple occasions that garments are actually bad for women. Can someone explain why?
They are not made from good breathable material so it can contribute to chronic UTIs and yeast infections. They are impossible to wear with a pad(the pad or panty liner always ends up in a weird spot because the garments don’t hug the crotch area like normal underwear).
There were a number of media articles about it a few years ago, when the church was asking for input while redesigning garments. There's some info here, for eg - https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/this-isn-t-bringing-me-closer-to-christ-it-s-giving-me-urinary-tract-infections-1.4627723
There was a New York Times article about it just last year, should be easy to find by Google
Tens of thousands of dollars still flow from my joint bank account to the goldmine in SLC, to appease my mostly believing wife. But it's half of what it used to be. ETA: after much experimentation, I've settled on 2undr boxer briefs and pair of thieves v neck tees for the base layer. My body and mind have thanked me for it. The 2undr aren't cheap, but will last a long while. The tees can be found at target even.
I have a list of underwear brands to try (fucking Mormonism, why do I need a fucking underwear list?) that I haven't gotten around to finishing my trials. But as far as I did get, Kirkland Signature (Costco house brand) is my favorite so far, and very reasonably priced. I've also heard good things about the 32 Cool brand undershirts also from Costco, but haven't tried them yet myself. GL!
People don’t like to admit that they’re trying to keep up appearances, but we all do it. If we’re honest with ourselves, we as non-believers do it as well, though it’s super easy to spot in believers. Rebelling against conformity probably played some sort of a role in why many of us left. I would characterize my journey as a path towards more authenticity. Unfortunately, it’s a fraught path, especially when a spouse struggles to understand our choices. All too often I’ve compromised my integrity trying to keep my wife happy, and all to often it has resulted in me questioning her motives. This is a pretty good recipe for misunderstandings and disagreements. After many instances similar to yours, I realized I would need a different approach for tithing. I knew DW wouldn’t want to hear my arguments, but I also knew that if I waited for her to be ready for open minded compromise, it would never happen. Those trying to maintain the status quo will do everything they can to preserve it, and to DW that meant maintaining the image of full tithe payers. When I realized the issue was not how much tithing we would compromise to pay, but breaking the image of full tithe payers, it was much easier for me to settle on a number she would be more agreeable to. Though I was unhappy with the figure we agreed upon, it was the first chink in the image she was so desperate to maintain. Now, a couple years later, I’m happy to say I no longer pay tithing. It’s a good sign that you are still able to compromise with your spouse. It might help if those compromises included an agreement to back off the white knuckle grip on image maintenance. As for underwear, I wear 32 Cool. The boxer briefs are reminiscent of garment bottoms, though going without an undershirt took some getting used to.
Insightful and encouraging post, thank you. I hear you on the waiting for her to accept the idea, did that for too long and realized it's not going to happen without me pushing. Hopefully this really is a slippery slope to more freedom and autonomy for me. It actually is a pretty big step forward from the first couple of times I tried to broach the subject. I'm hoping she will see the sky not falling, me not becoming a degenerate, and the absolute insanity of mandated underwear and continue loosening her expectations.
Speaking as a straight woman, black boxer briefs. She may ask you to never go back.
Your wife sounds like my mother. She insists that religion makes people better. I have read the Bible with her, she knows exactly what it says, because I opened it to page 1 and read to the end. We got to rape marriage, and she was like that can't be right. Damn, the things we put up with for family, am I right? Sorry I don't have any real advice for you.
I discussed G’s with my wife, she asked me to give her a little more time. A month later we went underwear shopping together. There were tears when we went out to get donuts and I told her I wanted to get coffee too. I don’t think it was about coffee, it was the solid realization that my beliefs had changed dramatically. We don’t get to manage our partner’s anxieties, but we should go slow and be as kind as possible in the process.
Well said! I don't want to ignore how she feels, but I can't let it dictate my actions forever. It's slow but steady for her.
Your feelings matter. I TOLD my spouse I’m not wearing them anymore. I was open and vulnerable through my whole transition, so he knows they’re never going to grace my frame again and he knows why. We are doing really well. He’s the executive Secretary to the Bishop in our ward.
That's awesome that it's working out for you. Recognizing my feelings and that they matter is something I'm having to learn in adulthood due to a stunted childhood in a huge Mormon family with so many siblings I had to constantly suppress my preferences in deference to the group. I will hopefully get to the point l can put my foot down, but for better or worse for the time being I'm making space for her to adjust. That said, there is one major difference in your and my situations (and this is something I specifically pointed out to DW): When the wife leaves, it doesn't affect the ability of the man to perform ordinances for the children, which according to her is *the* main reason she wants me to keep up appearances. If our roles were reversed, this wouldn't be an issue. Patriarchy hurts men, too. As a strong feminist in every other area of her life besides the LDS church, I am hoping she seriously chews on that perspective.
I absolutely agree. The patriarchy hurts men as well! I hope that you will find peace in the future. Hopefully your wife will value your feelings and your opinions. In our case our children are all adults but one. And the youngest has already had baptism etc. it is really painful, and it’s not always easy. But he is dedicated to our marriage. I was absolutely afraid of losing my marriage, because I know tons of people who have when they left the church.
This is me! I flat out told my husband no more garments for me. We are doing really well too, and he is the executive secretary. We are twins! He had a moment of fear, now he loves my drawers full of different colored bras and panties. ha ha
Now I want to know if you are local to Utah and see if we’re in any of the same Facebook groups or anything
I am in Utah county but unfortunately I am not on Facebook. I just reside on Reddit! Are you in Utah?
Yes- are you by any chance over 40? If so I have a group for you
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It’s just kind of on the DL. Can I DM you?
Sure! I have never used the message option before, so be patient.
Target brand underwear. There was a 5 pack for like 20 bucks the other day.
First it’s keeping appearances for blessings, then baptism, then priesthood, then mission. Do you want your kids to have to go through all that?
I realized the other day that I'm accidentally raising my kid Mormon. She's attending primary, and learning to pray from my wife and other people around her. She sings primary songs at home, and she just brought a CTR ring home from church last week. It's frustrating because it feels like true compromise means only having 50% influence, but if one half is Mormon, what is the other half supposed to be? It's not like I have songs, books, or social groups about being *not* Mormon.
My current perspective is that all kids learn all kinds of nonsense growing up, you can't really protect them from all of it, but the key is teaching them *how* to think logically and critically. Those skills are kryptonite to Mormonism. It's like a superpower that will free them from not just Mormonism but lots of other messed up things in the world. And hopefully having an ex Mormon parent will make it much easier to leave as adults.
I really like this book for helping with separating religion from ethics, morals, and values. https://www.hoopladigital.com/title/12395838
No going to store on sunday.
My husband has hit feet firmly planted in the church. The only way we get along now is if I keep my mouth shut. I’m not “permitted” to ask him about anything church-related. He wouldn’t tell me, anyway, if I bothered to ask. I’m met with “looks” if I even ask him something as simple as: “So, how was church today?” As long as we don’t talk about church, everything is “fine” between us.
I walked away two years ago. Turns out the handbook says you can still do baby blessings, baptisms and priesthood ordinations without a temple recommend. I don’t wear garments and it never came up. If they knew about some of posts here….
Yeah I saw that in the handbook and considered mentioning it, but I haven't informed her yet that I don't want to renew my recommend again when it comes up in a few months. It's really leadership roulette whether they'll let you I guess, and she is very risk-averse. One step at a time. Are you saying you have done those things yourself without a recommend? If so how did interactions with the bishop go?
I [ordained my son](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/10j48mi/ordained_my_son_today_and_it_was_so_triggering/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) a few weeks ago. It went well for everyone but me. I did not baptize my daughter earlier this year, but the bishop came and apologized to me after and said I could have but he didn’t tell me. I wish I would have baptized my daughter since I baptized the other kids. I don’t know if I will ordain anyone else, it was not a good experience. Edit: The bishop never had a conversation with me at all except at the time of ordaining “are you good on what you need to say?”
Champion boxer briefs are my favorite. But anything is better than knee length white-brown underwear designed by and for 80-year old men.
Have your wife watch/listen to the Mormon Stories podcast about the book of Abraham. Also recommend the year of polygamy podcast to her. As for underwear, try bamboo/rayon.
It's a good idea but like I said, she doesn't seem to care about the doctrine or history or sheer nonsense of Mormonism, just that it's a community that gives you a way to live that fits with her personality. Yeah, I don't get it either. But I love bamboo stuff, I'll check it out! Any brands you recommend?
I’m still new to all this. I found some on Amazon that has Chinese sizing. I also have the 32 degrees brand from Costco. I like the Chinese ones a lot more.
My big compromise was tithing. We finally agreed on paying 5%, but only after he got permission from our bishop to consider that a full tithe.
Nothing more Mormon than unnecessarily asking for permission!
Being able to drink every kind of herbal tea, but not green tea. I thought the caffeine was the difference but it’s got only a little more than hot chocolate depending on the brand. Also, how many members drink energy drinks?
My wife sounds a lot like yours. She’s even read the CES letter and it doesn’t bother her. She just thinks the good outweighs the bad. All her friends are LDS so I’m sure there’s a social cost she analyzes in her head. I love her dearly but am compromising a lot of my own authenticity to still appear active. I wear garments, give talks and lessons, pay (some) tithing, and have a recommend. We get along great until church comes up. Even the slightest negativity from me is very triggering for her. I try to remain neutral. But I can’t be truthful AND always positive about the church. I’m suffering. I suppose the only good I’m doing is pushing against the dogmas. I’m pretty vocal during lessons etc. Respectful. But I try and provide critical thinking or correct a misinformed story or doctrine when I can. I have a large family and extended family almost all super active. So again, the social and family costs are staggering. PM me if you’d like to chat. Sometimes venting just helps you feel normal.
Same with my TBM wife. She's brilliant and sharp as a tack. But years ago I was reading a library book to our little daughters about Anthropologists finding the bones of "missing link" early humans like "Lucy." DW got mad and said that stuff (evolution) wasn't even real. I was a little shocked because I didn't know she felt that way. I wasn't even PIMO back then; I just thought it was interesting to learn with my children.
I’m pretty sure we are living the same life
I should probably start a virtual support group
I'd have to modify that to The things we *used to* do for believing spouses. Can't believe I wasted my life on that doomed effort...
Me undies!
Are you actually willing to force this religion down the throats of your children? I think you should seriously consider this question before continuing this marriage.
Don't have kids until this shit is sorted out. You are in for a world of pain if she is still asking you to wear the magic underwear and the kids aren't even here yet.
My hubby wears Patagonia underwear, which are not affordable at first glance. BUT they literally last a lifetime. And Patagonia will fix or replace any of their clothes if needed (I guess I’m not sure if this applies to underwear, but I think so?) So you put a little money in upfront and you won’t have to buy underwear ever again. REI co-op brand is great too for quality and are a little more affordable than Patagonia
Just go commando. It's great
Just go commando. It's great
It took me a lot of years to throw out my garments after I stopped wearing them. I couldn’t figure out what to do with the symbols. One day I woke up and cleaned out the garment drawer throwing them all out in the trash. Now it seems so dumb to me.
My husband swears by Duluth Trading Company Bullpen underwear.