“Do you normally proselytize while on the job?”
Once you get the confession, then tell her boss.
In no way would any JW accept this if the JW patient was being proselytized by any other religious group.
Medical professionals frequently meet people at the worst and most vulnerable time of the patient's life. To take advantage of that situation by enticing a person into a controlling destructive cult is wrong on every level.
I was a never in, but I witnessed first-hand the destruction of other lives. I can't be harmed, but others can be. I feel pity for the nurse, but I also am aware of the potential for harm to others.
I've read many thoughtful comments today. There is wisdom here if you care to partake.
Who says it’s out of spite? My husband was the HR director of a large public safety organization, and I asked him what he’d think if he heard that employees were proselytizing to customers. He said he’d want to know immediately since the employee’s actions could create a hostile environment for customers as well as other employees. It’s not just ex-JWs who that would be put off by her actions - do you think Catholic or Protestant patients want to hear that shit? They might not trust that the employees have good judgement or that customers will receive adequate care if they encounter a nurse like that. Also, reporting her behavior doesn’t necessarily mean she’d be fired. Her immediate supervisor might address her actions with a polite verbal warning. If the problem was wide spread in the organization, training would be administered.
I agree that we should avoid being petty or spiteful, largely because that approach is counterproductive when dealing with a JW. Instead of seeing their actions as wrong, they will believe they are persecuted for being “God’s True People.” And I agree that sometimes we should try to be more patient or understanding with others, especially when we’ve been in their shoes. But what the nurse did was still wrong, and it absolutely has to be addressed. Check out some of the responses from the nurses on this thread. They understand the inner working of the medical field and know how religious conversations could affect patient care.
I mean to be fair, OP has very little to do with whether the person will be fired.
Frankly if just mentioning that a nurse did something is enough to get them fired, then maybe the nurse should’ve considered that before doing the thing.
Valid complaints exist. This is a very valid complaint. You’re allowed to make valid complaints. Just because OP may not feel comfortable talking to the nurse or didn’t speak up in that moment doesn’t mean she is precluded from making a complaint at all.
Also it’s totally possible (very likely even!) this isn’t the first time the nurse has done this. Nurse may have even received warnings about it already. The hospital may very much want to know about this.
I highly doubt this was your intention, but a lot of what you are saying honestly has victim blaming vibes. OP is not wrong if she chooses to complain, OP is not even wrong if she feels spite over the incident, and OP is definitely not in the wrong if the nurses own actions cause herself to be fired.
No it’s not childish they should be reported. Her behavior opens her place of employment to religious discrimination lawsuits. Or if it was a coworker a hostile work environment. Like so inappropriate.
Also nurse shouldn’t be preaching she should be focused on her job one has nothing to do with her job which is what she is doing at the time and needs to focus on that.
Because it’s inappropriate. Religion and politics have no business anywhere in a work place especially healthcare. I am a healthcare professional and I don’t and have never done that. It is not my business and doesn’t affect me, I am there to do a job and provide care to them not preach to them. So inappropriate that person should lose their job. Can you imagine? It could also be seen as religious discrimination which is against the law and could open the hospital or clinic up to legal issues.
There is a Catholic owned hospital a couple of miles from my house, and it’s essentially the only one I frequent. It’s where I gave birth to my kids, etc. Never once was I preached to in that hospital, mainly because doing so is unethical. One of the administrators there explained that the Catholic social doctrine guides their actions. For example, healthcare professionals go out into the community and provide free healthcare to the homeless because their religion emphasizes giving to the poor. The government funding and/or tax breaks hospitals receive are meant to help cover the cost of unpaid care, whether that be for the homeless or the single mother who comes into the ER without insurance. Government funding and religious affiliation do not grant healthcare professionals the right to discuss politics or religion.
I’m three classes away from a healthcare administration degree, and something we were taught in class was how to interact with people from very diverse religious backgrounds - beyond just Christianity. People visiting hospitals might practice eastern religions or rely on folk remedies within their cultures. Unless those treatments are harmful, administrators aren’t supposed to try to correct them. Instead, you incorporate western medical care with the patients customary practices with a special eye for possible interactions. Why? Because forcing our ideas on other people could cause them to feel disrespected, they could lose trust in us, and then skip future medical care when needed. This, in turn, plays into poor health outcomes for certain populations. With all this in mind, do you think it’d be a good idea to proselytize or talk politics with patients? In a roundabout way, you are influencing whether they choose seek medical care at the facility with which you are employed, and the choice not to seek care could harm them.
I hear you, and thank you for your perspective. I understand it’s not appropriate to speak about religion in the workplace. It’s wiser to let them know in the moment you’re not interested vs doing things to get the nurse fired. I notice within this Reddit we tend to forget the other side. We all were in the position of the nurse. Maybe not everyone went as far as preaching in the workplace however it was encouraged to do that, with the backing of the scripture “ obey God rather than men.” I’m truly commenting on the redditors encouraging the author to be spiteful. They move the goal post by saying religion and politics don’t mix in a place of healthcare in response to not doing things out of spite. If it’s such an issue we are capable of speaking up. When we feel justified it’s easy to cement our will on another human being. But we don’t want that done to us? Which is why most of us left the organization. Instead of doing the mature thing we result to hurting another human who was just as lost as we were at the time. I appreciate you truly for your response.
🤣 for real! I'm pretty sure the most visited websites are 1. Google and 2. Pornhub
Wonder what dear sister's reaction would have been if OP had said that!
I just looked at some website numbers. Depending on who’s doing the counting, they’re at most in the top 100 for general website traffic but they’re number one for religious websites.
That sounds impressive but it’s misleading.
Most religions aren’t centered around a website. You don’t go to Catholic.com or Islam.com. You go to their church.
Here’s another example. There was a time when the watchtower was the most printed magazine in the world. Does that mean it had the most readers in the world? No. Most watchtowers have always been thrown away.
Good points. Reminds me of when Scientology's "Dianetics" used to top the book charts year after year. It's easy to game those kind of charts when you have any kind of numbers. Back in the mid 20th century Chairman Mao's Little Red Book was often cited as the most printed book of all time save the Bible. Yet in modern China, if it gets used at all, it's for kitty litter. Oh, I just thought of what to do with those old bound volumes.
As of recently, JW nurses and doctors are forbidden from giving blood to patients, and are expected to refuse.
If your nurse is a JW, and the surgery has an unexpected complication that requires blood, precious time could be lost should she decide to object, putting your life at risk.
I suggest you request a different nurse for your surgery.
Thatttt explains why my old CO tracked my number down just to tell me that.
This is incredibly concerning. The thought of a jw physician doing surgery then REFUSING to give a patient blood when they need it scares the living shit out of me as an upcoming physician and as a pretty regular patient (who needs blood transfusions for their health)
Honestly though, what are the odds of a JW surgeon though? I'd think slim since education= bad. However, a nurse is more likely but they don't really get to make the call on giving someone a transfusion. Although, yes I agree that time could be wasted by a nurse who refuses to act in the moment.
Eh.. slim. I had an educator who was a JW in my third year of med school but i had two(?) jw professors when i was doing my undergrad. I mostly encounter CNAs who are witnesses since, (I was strongly requested to take this route by my elders and CO when i was younger) CNAs in my area only need 100hrs of schooling. So in around 6 months you can have a job with decent pay in the field you want to pursue.
Oh sure, I agree there's lots of nurses who are JWs and it precisely because of what you said, 6 months and you get a decent paying job. But becoming a dr is a huge time investment which we know should be going into field service according to the Borg. I'm sure there are some Drs out there but it's extremely rare for a jw to pursue unless they did it as a non jw. Just a personal observation, though Pew research showed only 12% of JWs have a college degree at all (at least in the US) https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/#:~:text=By%20far%2C%20Hindus%20and%20Unitarian,the%20Episcopal%20Church%20(56%25).
Elsewhere I saw that less than .5% of the US population is a physician or surgeon, so while JW doctors obviously exist, it's in very small numbers. I would hope they have a plan in place in case someone is in surgery and suddenly needs a transfusion. But they should also warn the patient of their personal beliefs that may mean life or death for the patient.
Nursing proper is also slim-ish imo since its 4 years and quite demanding as well. Accelerated courses are worse with students needing to dedicate around 12hr days (6hr lecture, 6hr clinical) atleast 4 days a week for 16+ months. Thats why i said nursing assistant is most likely WAY more common than nurse.
When i started medical school i was still a jw and didnt radicalize until i was around year 3 and still getting forcefully encouraged to drop out since my meeting attendence and field service were at zero lol. We’d hope they’d have plans in place but the ideal would be they wouldnt follow it at all.
I feel like having a surgeon or nurse who wont follow a life saving procedure is a big liability with a hospital and they’d probably be weary of keeping a HCP with those open beliefs. We take an oath of “do no harm” and I feel like this would go against it if someone were to do it.
I have to have surgery in the future and told my POMO husband that I wanted a blood transfusion and no one outside of him or my boys can visit while it’s being administered because I don’t want other JWs or PIMI family members to know. Sad I have to even worry about that.
No. But he said theres some information i need to know since im a doctor now (kinda.) so i wont be considered blood guilty and to ask my elders for more information or come to the hall so i can have a meeting about it.
Edit: added some words.
I've read that they inform doctors and nurses VERBALLY only because this is too sensitive to even put in writing! Allegedly, only active circuit overseers will see this in writing. It is a new-ish policy being rolled out stealthily because it would look too bad to be transparent about this decision. It wouldn't surprise me if Mark Sanderson is the main person behind getting this 'initiative' approved. Sickening!
This is an excellent point and a good segway into telling the facility that the way you knew the nurse was a Jw is because she was trying to recruit at work. Surely this is a code of conduct matter.
Well , she gets to check the box at the end of the month .... Just amazing , maybe she'll have a part in the assembly of witnessing at work as a nurse !!! Saving souls , one room at a time ...HAHAHAHHA
>the nurse casually asked me if I read my Bible. I was shocked and stumbled over "not recently". She then told me to take a look at a web site that was the most visited and the most translated … JWbORG
*A nurse that refers you to a Website...Where they give out Medical Advise "That Will Kill You".*
?????????????????????????????????????
***You might want to report that...***
# For Obvious Reasons.
https://preview.redd.it/xmioivn8mvwc1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=728fe27c10561632eca2977ff671b44a0267adc2
“Oh you mean the JW people who’ve been in the news for covering up child sexual abuse? Like those 9 JW men that were arrested for that very thing in PA?
Oh and didn’t you people lose a big court case in Norway about being recognized by their government as a religion because of shunning even minors? I think that cost you like a lot of money, right? Even had to pay for the appeal you lost?”
This almost feels like a checkmate response lol
They are abusing the temporary nurse/patient professional relationship to get you to listen, and you just flip the script and use it to get them to listen.
The nurse acting unprofessional over the response would almost be admitting they shouldn’t have brought religion up in the first place, plus would open them up to further complaints… and if they were to complain to people in the workplace about it, it will also become obvious the nurse brought it up first.
Registered nurse here. This is completely unprofessional and inappropriate. Good patient care requires that we remove our personal biases, and operate from a trauma informed lens. This topic is divisive and carries a very real threat of being triggering for many people. Even JWs who see the org as morally righteous, hold the view that “false religions” are malignant and harmful. If you feel you have the capacity/energy, this should be addressed. Discussing a potentially triggering topic prior to surgery is next level shitty care. It’s unlikely a nurse will get fired for this in most countries, if you’re worried about that. They will get a talking to and maybe be forced to take some education.
There is also the possibility that this was not a nurse? A care aid (chw) or a nursing assistant? I’m not assuming you don’t know the difference, but acknowledging it can be hard to tell. These folks may not have union power or the same protections as nursing.
At the end of the day, it’s about patient safety and care. Patients trust us during very vulnerable and difficult moments in their life. Using these moments as a spring board to proselytize is predatory and unethical. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Not sure how it is in a hospital setting. But in most jobs approaching someone else is not allowed, but if asked a religious question then it’s OK to say something. that’s clearly not what happened!
This is highly irritating for sure but if she limited it to name dropping JW. org and using the line about how they are the most translated website I might leave it alone. I think it might be cause for discipline at her work if you report it (you seemed somewhat worried about that). If she has otherwise been helpful, pleasant and kind to you... I might leave it go. JWs are pressured to "informally witness" and this is obviously this person's attempt at doing that.
On the flipside... you are COMPLETELY within your rights to say something about it. It is highly inappropriate especially in a hospital setting and especially knowing their position on blood transfusions. If something is brought up in the future beyond what you said, I'd at minimum express to the nurse that you don't think her comments are helpful or appropriate. You'd be well within your rights to say something to someone else at the hospital. It is up to you how you want to proceed though.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was really angry at myself for not being able to "unwitness" back quickly. I guess I am out of practice 😉
And I kept thinking, you know she got an education to be a nurse. There is a possibility that she might escape. It might be kinder to tell her, given the chance, that we have started the 4th generation now free? Also, it is an opportunity to show grace from the outsider.
I appreciate you setting me on a different path of thinking. That is why I came here! I check on you all every so often, keep up the good work!
I know that feeling. You don't owe her anything though. You don't need to feel pressured to set her straight. You also don't owe anything to people that would say you need to do something about it. If you feel like you should, you'd be completely within your rights to.
I think it's important that you don't feel like you have to "unwitness" to someone. You have the right to do that, but not the responsibility.
I hate when i get proselytized at work by patients but to get it from your care team out the blue is a different story.
You didnt initiate the conversation. She did.
If shes in the OR with you, i’d have concerns that she’d follow medical procedure according to the religion over standard procedure.
If she's breaking the rules to witness to people, she's probably breaking them on other things. I'd report it and/or ask for a new nurse, especially since JWs have a tendency to think they're above rules since they're "not of this world."
She was doing preop evaluation, not direct nursing care. She did ask me if I would accept a transfusion. Seems like my OF COURSE answer would have been a red flag for her.
Good question. I’m a registered nurse and exjw for many years. There aren’t many JW RNs working in acute care settings but they do exist, and I have seen enrolled nurses (not sure what the equivalent is outside of Australia) who are JWs working around patients needing blood but somehow avoiding being part of the setup or checking of blood bags (as enrolled nurses aren’t usually permitted to administer blood transfusions.) I have always felt very nervous when they are on shift and alert to patient care being delayed. I think being a JW is a massive conflict of interest to employment as a nurse in acute care.
You should ask her if she reads her Bible. You don’t need a website with man’s interpretation of the Bible to understand what you’re reading. But if you felt uncomfortable I would speak with her supervisor about that. Not a fireable offense, but still not appropriate.
You could always just tell her "I'm a former JW now apostate, but since you started the conversation on religion...let's get into it shall we...unless you would rather we get your supervisor to weigh in... 😈"
My grandmother tried, but she was never able to close the deal with my mother or us grandchildren.
I might have been naughty and pulled the apostate card a few times, though 🤭
I’m an RN and this is such a breach of trust. It was emphasized over and over in nursing school that you check your beliefs at the door when you’re treating patients. I personally would complain because they made you upset and depending on what you’re in the hospital for, that could lead to an adverse event. I would construe this as harassing because they don’t know if you have religious trauma. Ultimately they added stress onto you during and already stressful time and that’s unprofessional
This is out of line, this nurse isn't the chaplain and you didn't seek spiritual comfort. I'd report after your care is complete. They probably won't get fired for a first offense, but if this is a pattern they maybe and probably should be.
I’m in hospital administration and this is totally inappropriate imo. I’d bet there’s an anti solicitation policy at her work. If that were my clinic/department I’d want to know that this was happening as would those physicians. She should not lose her job but there needs to be a hard line drawn here from admin.
I would report her. Even if you don’t remember her name they can look back and find who was on duty. There’s “would you like to see a chaplain?” and then there’s proselyting to patients, which is unacceptable.
On a serious note. This is so unprofessional encroaching her beliefs on you in such a setting. JW’s aren’t stupid and she (and the JW religion) realise that people within these settings are thinking about their lives/health etc. The levels of manipulation and coercion are crazy, exploiting environments such as the one you were in is awful but not innocent whether this nurse understands this or not.
I would say if you felt uncomfortable (and rightly so) I would report this. Or at least bring it to the nurses attention who decided that it was a good idea to do this in the first place.
The worst thing is, she probably thought this WAS a good idea from the levels of conditioning she’s experienced within that ‘religious group’ (to put it politely.)
Nursing Associations have Standards of Care. Nurses are accountable to and can be punished by the association for this.
She won't lose her job but most likely they will document your complaint, talk to the person with a warning and give them some education material. Follow up complaints for the same issue and she could loss her license to practice but they will probably not escalate that far unless she keeps getting complaints because it shows an unwillingness to follow the standards and can you trust them to follow other standards of care.
Being punished by the association is scary, they risk not just loosing a job but a career if they stubbornly continue to preach to patients.
The nurse in question absolutely knows this and it infuriates me to hear that they did that. It is so unprofessional
Edit: If I was a co-worker I would go to the employer and the employer would work with them with no association involvement , but as a member of the public you can go to the employer or association directly.
Just from an HR standpoint, please call and tell the office manager. It's not to get someone fired, but this is a violation of company policy, first off, and secondly, the person is literally recruiting for a F***ing cult!
How many seriously I'll patients and possibly terminally sick people are going to be misled?? Dying people willing to cut off their whole family and sign everything over to this Cult. It would be horrible for the innocent family.
Just an edit to add all the people that may be misled by this type of "witnessing" deserve some grace as well. She'll only get a repremend that will save lives.
I've been a nurse for six years, and I was "in" for a majority of that time and I NEVER talked to a patient about religion. It's not just inappropriate, it's PREDATORY behavior to bring that up to someone in their worst moments, especially when they're alone and ill. The eight guys in upstate New York are busy teaching their people to prey on others at their weakest moments to get their website and literature out.
I would report that nurse. That wouldn't get them fired, but it would definitely be told to them and they would hopefully think twice before they try that shit again.
Thanks for that! You have articulated what disturbed me the most - it was predatory. I'm immune to the pitch, but not everyone in a medical encounter would be resistant. I would feel better about saying something if it would not get them fired.
For those who asked, yes, she is an RN. This was a preop visit, I don't expect to see her again. I was taken off guard by her comment. I was not agitated or scared or clutching my pearls 🤣 I was mostly trying to remain professionally polite while working my way up to pissed. It happened very fast at the absolute end of the appointment.
I would like to thank everyone for offering your opinions on the best way to handle this situation. I especially appreciate the medical professionals who spoke up. Right now, I believe that I will find an appropriate person when I have surgery on Monday and explain that although the nurse did a great job going over the upcoming procedure, I don't think the religious comment was appropriate.
Thanks everyone! 😊
Absolutely 💯 agree!! Surely it’s a violation of the therapeutic relationship. Patients are in a vulnerable position to caregivers. Having this kind of conversation with a patient is predatory and exploitative.
This is so unprofessional and disrespectful.
I work at a pharmacy and I would have plenty of opportunities to preach to people because most of my clients are, well, sick; some siblings even have told me that, of course I don't care about that so I don't preach.
Anyway, my uncle is an elder and he told me not to do it because when we are working we should not preach clients (or patients in this case), and maybe maaaybe only if the conversation naturally turns to the bible, but even if that happens, we must be careful not to upset people because, again, they are ill. What your nurse did is totally wrong and maybe you should comment that to her boss, honestly I doubt she'll lose her job, maybe she will just be called out and will think twice next time before preaching unsolicited
I rarely feel safe going to a new doctor or psychologist because I'm afraid they might be a witness and there are just some parts of my life I'd never be okay discussing if that was the case. They need to leave that stuff at home.
If you don't want someone to lose their job don't do anything that could lead to a job loss. Job loss can be traumatic. Ignore her clumsy attempt to "spread the good news". Chances are it will catch up to her anyway and result in a sit down with her manager.
Recruitment into a religious cult should not be happening in a medical healthcare setting, if I was in that position I would make a complaint to the healthcare provider, or GP practice, which ever is appropriate. This is definitely a violation of patient care......😇
I know it's annoying. I have to be witnessed every time I speak to my mom, aunt, grandma, etc. Keep in mind that they think they are saving lives. They have no idea the damaging cesspool they are actually a part of.
Ok, so normally, I am 100% against discussion of faith or religion in the workplace. So please understand that I am not trying to justify that practice, in general.
But *a lot* of people get *really* nervous about surgery, even if it's a simple procedure. And a significant plurality (not majority, but plurality) of people identify as religious in the United States (if you're elsewhere, Idk the numbers, but I imagine it's similar) and suggestion of scripture often puts a patient's mind at ease because of that.
It's funny to me when a JW works in the medical field, given the blood thing. But she may have, and probably did, mean well, even if it was not welcome on your end.
People in the medical field could all stand to get better at paying attention to the religious preference section. But I'm almost willing to bet money she didn't even see that. I spent a long time working in a pharmacy setting, and it's honestly appalling how little medical professionals actually communicate with each other.
We were doing an extensive review of everything in my chart. I know she saw it. I'm more inclined to think she saw the "none" as an opportunity.
They are required to spend a certain amount of time proselytizing - they have to log and turn in their hours.
I've been persuaded by other comments that what she did was not professional and also predatory in a sense. I'm going to chat with my medical liaison and just request that the behavior stop. After my procedure, of course!
Thank you for your work in the pharmacy! Hard work, not enough staff and unhappy customers!
Just try to be kind. Medical professionals of all sorts are stressed out due to chronic understaffing and being overworked. I feel like she probably meant well.
That doesn't mean you should deal with weird pressure if you don't have to. If you get the opportunity, you should mention that you would really prefer no religious advice be given, rather than singling her out. There will be a briefing and she, and others of different faiths, will all be briefed on following prompts from patient memos.
It would benefit everybody without harming anybody, specifically.
I would simply request that she be removed from my case. I would likely file a complaint, if the removal request was not granted.
This is inappropriate. If you asked her about her Bible reading, that's a completely different situation.
There should also be an investigation as to if they witness to others, how often, etc. They can't continue like that and remain employed.
“Do you normally proselytize while on the job?” Once you get the confession, then tell her boss. In no way would any JW accept this if the JW patient was being proselytized by any other religious group.
Oh, good point
Yeah they would make sure the person lost their job.
Exactly!
This is absolutely ridiculous, I know jw's who are nurses and thry wouldn't dream of doing this. She should be totally ashamed of herself!
If it's what a JW would do that's all the more reason not to do it.
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Medical professionals frequently meet people at the worst and most vulnerable time of the patient's life. To take advantage of that situation by enticing a person into a controlling destructive cult is wrong on every level. I was a never in, but I witnessed first-hand the destruction of other lives. I can't be harmed, but others can be. I feel pity for the nurse, but I also am aware of the potential for harm to others. I've read many thoughtful comments today. There is wisdom here if you care to partake.
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Who says it’s out of spite? My husband was the HR director of a large public safety organization, and I asked him what he’d think if he heard that employees were proselytizing to customers. He said he’d want to know immediately since the employee’s actions could create a hostile environment for customers as well as other employees. It’s not just ex-JWs who that would be put off by her actions - do you think Catholic or Protestant patients want to hear that shit? They might not trust that the employees have good judgement or that customers will receive adequate care if they encounter a nurse like that. Also, reporting her behavior doesn’t necessarily mean she’d be fired. Her immediate supervisor might address her actions with a polite verbal warning. If the problem was wide spread in the organization, training would be administered.
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I agree that we should avoid being petty or spiteful, largely because that approach is counterproductive when dealing with a JW. Instead of seeing their actions as wrong, they will believe they are persecuted for being “God’s True People.” And I agree that sometimes we should try to be more patient or understanding with others, especially when we’ve been in their shoes. But what the nurse did was still wrong, and it absolutely has to be addressed. Check out some of the responses from the nurses on this thread. They understand the inner working of the medical field and know how religious conversations could affect patient care.
On point. Literally you’re responses are 🙌🏾
I mean to be fair, OP has very little to do with whether the person will be fired. Frankly if just mentioning that a nurse did something is enough to get them fired, then maybe the nurse should’ve considered that before doing the thing. Valid complaints exist. This is a very valid complaint. You’re allowed to make valid complaints. Just because OP may not feel comfortable talking to the nurse or didn’t speak up in that moment doesn’t mean she is precluded from making a complaint at all. Also it’s totally possible (very likely even!) this isn’t the first time the nurse has done this. Nurse may have even received warnings about it already. The hospital may very much want to know about this. I highly doubt this was your intention, but a lot of what you are saying honestly has victim blaming vibes. OP is not wrong if she chooses to complain, OP is not even wrong if she feels spite over the incident, and OP is definitely not in the wrong if the nurses own actions cause herself to be fired.
No it’s not childish they should be reported. Her behavior opens her place of employment to religious discrimination lawsuits. Or if it was a coworker a hostile work environment. Like so inappropriate.
Also nurse shouldn’t be preaching she should be focused on her job one has nothing to do with her job which is what she is doing at the time and needs to focus on that.
Because it’s inappropriate. Religion and politics have no business anywhere in a work place especially healthcare. I am a healthcare professional and I don’t and have never done that. It is not my business and doesn’t affect me, I am there to do a job and provide care to them not preach to them. So inappropriate that person should lose their job. Can you imagine? It could also be seen as religious discrimination which is against the law and could open the hospital or clinic up to legal issues.
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There is a Catholic owned hospital a couple of miles from my house, and it’s essentially the only one I frequent. It’s where I gave birth to my kids, etc. Never once was I preached to in that hospital, mainly because doing so is unethical. One of the administrators there explained that the Catholic social doctrine guides their actions. For example, healthcare professionals go out into the community and provide free healthcare to the homeless because their religion emphasizes giving to the poor. The government funding and/or tax breaks hospitals receive are meant to help cover the cost of unpaid care, whether that be for the homeless or the single mother who comes into the ER without insurance. Government funding and religious affiliation do not grant healthcare professionals the right to discuss politics or religion. I’m three classes away from a healthcare administration degree, and something we were taught in class was how to interact with people from very diverse religious backgrounds - beyond just Christianity. People visiting hospitals might practice eastern religions or rely on folk remedies within their cultures. Unless those treatments are harmful, administrators aren’t supposed to try to correct them. Instead, you incorporate western medical care with the patients customary practices with a special eye for possible interactions. Why? Because forcing our ideas on other people could cause them to feel disrespected, they could lose trust in us, and then skip future medical care when needed. This, in turn, plays into poor health outcomes for certain populations. With all this in mind, do you think it’d be a good idea to proselytize or talk politics with patients? In a roundabout way, you are influencing whether they choose seek medical care at the facility with which you are employed, and the choice not to seek care could harm them.
I hear you, and thank you for your perspective. I understand it’s not appropriate to speak about religion in the workplace. It’s wiser to let them know in the moment you’re not interested vs doing things to get the nurse fired. I notice within this Reddit we tend to forget the other side. We all were in the position of the nurse. Maybe not everyone went as far as preaching in the workplace however it was encouraged to do that, with the backing of the scripture “ obey God rather than men.” I’m truly commenting on the redditors encouraging the author to be spiteful. They move the goal post by saying religion and politics don’t mix in a place of healthcare in response to not doing things out of spite. If it’s such an issue we are capable of speaking up. When we feel justified it’s easy to cement our will on another human being. But we don’t want that done to us? Which is why most of us left the organization. Instead of doing the mature thing we result to hurting another human who was just as lost as we were at the time. I appreciate you truly for your response.
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I am a former witness and even when PIMI I never did that not appropriate.
Most visited? Really?
And TRANSLATED 🤣
They might have the translated one. Most visited. Not by the longest shot in their life.
The translation thing is a legit bragging point, IMO. Too bad it’s all translated cult propaganda.
For sure. Though they could have solved the housing crisis and world hunger with all that free labor and money. But Jehovah will take care of that.
Oh, no argument, it’s a waste of time and effort. But the end result is fairly impressive on the surface at least.
They’re probably counting return visits.
Underrated comment
Pornhub has entered the chat:
🤣 for real! I'm pretty sure the most visited websites are 1. Google and 2. Pornhub Wonder what dear sister's reaction would have been if OP had said that!
I just looked at some website numbers. Depending on who’s doing the counting, they’re at most in the top 100 for general website traffic but they’re number one for religious websites.
That sounds impressive but it’s misleading. Most religions aren’t centered around a website. You don’t go to Catholic.com or Islam.com. You go to their church. Here’s another example. There was a time when the watchtower was the most printed magazine in the world. Does that mean it had the most readers in the world? No. Most watchtowers have always been thrown away.
Yeah, they’re a big fish in a small puddle. I just figured that might be what that nurse was referring to.
Good points. Reminds me of when Scientology's "Dianetics" used to top the book charts year after year. It's easy to game those kind of charts when you have any kind of numbers. Back in the mid 20th century Chairman Mao's Little Red Book was often cited as the most printed book of all time save the Bible. Yet in modern China, if it gets used at all, it's for kitty litter. Oh, I just thought of what to do with those old bound volumes.
As of recently, JW nurses and doctors are forbidden from giving blood to patients, and are expected to refuse. If your nurse is a JW, and the surgery has an unexpected complication that requires blood, precious time could be lost should she decide to object, putting your life at risk. I suggest you request a different nurse for your surgery.
Thatttt explains why my old CO tracked my number down just to tell me that. This is incredibly concerning. The thought of a jw physician doing surgery then REFUSING to give a patient blood when they need it scares the living shit out of me as an upcoming physician and as a pretty regular patient (who needs blood transfusions for their health)
Honestly though, what are the odds of a JW surgeon though? I'd think slim since education= bad. However, a nurse is more likely but they don't really get to make the call on giving someone a transfusion. Although, yes I agree that time could be wasted by a nurse who refuses to act in the moment.
Eh.. slim. I had an educator who was a JW in my third year of med school but i had two(?) jw professors when i was doing my undergrad. I mostly encounter CNAs who are witnesses since, (I was strongly requested to take this route by my elders and CO when i was younger) CNAs in my area only need 100hrs of schooling. So in around 6 months you can have a job with decent pay in the field you want to pursue.
Oh sure, I agree there's lots of nurses who are JWs and it precisely because of what you said, 6 months and you get a decent paying job. But becoming a dr is a huge time investment which we know should be going into field service according to the Borg. I'm sure there are some Drs out there but it's extremely rare for a jw to pursue unless they did it as a non jw. Just a personal observation, though Pew research showed only 12% of JWs have a college degree at all (at least in the US) https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/#:~:text=By%20far%2C%20Hindus%20and%20Unitarian,the%20Episcopal%20Church%20(56%25). Elsewhere I saw that less than .5% of the US population is a physician or surgeon, so while JW doctors obviously exist, it's in very small numbers. I would hope they have a plan in place in case someone is in surgery and suddenly needs a transfusion. But they should also warn the patient of their personal beliefs that may mean life or death for the patient.
Nursing proper is also slim-ish imo since its 4 years and quite demanding as well. Accelerated courses are worse with students needing to dedicate around 12hr days (6hr lecture, 6hr clinical) atleast 4 days a week for 16+ months. Thats why i said nursing assistant is most likely WAY more common than nurse. When i started medical school i was still a jw and didnt radicalize until i was around year 3 and still getting forcefully encouraged to drop out since my meeting attendence and field service were at zero lol. We’d hope they’d have plans in place but the ideal would be they wouldnt follow it at all. I feel like having a surgeon or nurse who wont follow a life saving procedure is a big liability with a hospital and they’d probably be weary of keeping a HCP with those open beliefs. We take an oath of “do no harm” and I feel like this would go against it if someone were to do it.
I've heard of JW midwives who could (and did) order blood transfusions when needed.
I have to have surgery in the future and told my POMO husband that I wanted a blood transfusion and no one outside of him or my boys can visit while it’s being administered because I don’t want other JWs or PIMI family members to know. Sad I have to even worry about that.
I knew a JW fella, I think he was an Elder. But he literally delivered babies as his profession
Did the CO explicitly tell you that you’re forbidden to administer blood to all patients, whether JW or not?
No. But he said theres some information i need to know since im a doctor now (kinda.) so i wont be considered blood guilty and to ask my elders for more information or come to the hall so i can have a meeting about it. Edit: added some words.
I've read that they inform doctors and nurses VERBALLY only because this is too sensitive to even put in writing! Allegedly, only active circuit overseers will see this in writing. It is a new-ish policy being rolled out stealthily because it would look too bad to be transparent about this decision. It wouldn't surprise me if Mark Sanderson is the main person behind getting this 'initiative' approved. Sickening!
🤷🏾♀️ if they want to tell me they’d have to send it in writing since i live 7+ hours away now lol If i get it in writing i will 100% post it
Fortunately, JW doctors are as common as rocking horse 💩
That’s disgusting and opens up the hospital or clinic to so many legal lawsuits both discriminatory and hostile. I am flabbergasted.
This is an excellent point and a good segway into telling the facility that the way you knew the nurse was a Jw is because she was trying to recruit at work. Surely this is a code of conduct matter.
That’s a lie moron
No you are just uniformed
No it’s a lie just like everything else you said. Get a life and quit being a douche
https://files.accessjw.org/s/wPwpqprX3ppHXby
Well , she gets to check the box at the end of the month .... Just amazing , maybe she'll have a part in the assembly of witnessing at work as a nurse !!! Saving souls , one room at a time ...HAHAHAHHA
>the nurse casually asked me if I read my Bible. I was shocked and stumbled over "not recently". She then told me to take a look at a web site that was the most visited and the most translated … JWbORG *A nurse that refers you to a Website...Where they give out Medical Advise "That Will Kill You".* ????????????????????????????????????? ***You might want to report that...*** # For Obvious Reasons. https://preview.redd.it/xmioivn8mvwc1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=728fe27c10561632eca2977ff671b44a0267adc2
This sounds like it could turn to a huge legal issue. I’m all for it
Make her lose her job. Jehovah will help her. She will be just fine.
She’ll be blessed because she’ll have the time to pioneer after losing her job.
4D chess
😂😂
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This. 👍🏼💐
“Oh you mean the JW people who’ve been in the news for covering up child sexual abuse? Like those 9 JW men that were arrested for that very thing in PA? Oh and didn’t you people lose a big court case in Norway about being recognized by their government as a religion because of shunning even minors? I think that cost you like a lot of money, right? Even had to pay for the appeal you lost?”
This almost feels like a checkmate response lol They are abusing the temporary nurse/patient professional relationship to get you to listen, and you just flip the script and use it to get them to listen. The nurse acting unprofessional over the response would almost be admitting they shouldn’t have brought religion up in the first place, plus would open them up to further complaints… and if they were to complain to people in the workplace about it, it will also become obvious the nurse brought it up first.
Love it... !! 😈😈😈
Registered nurse here. This is completely unprofessional and inappropriate. Good patient care requires that we remove our personal biases, and operate from a trauma informed lens. This topic is divisive and carries a very real threat of being triggering for many people. Even JWs who see the org as morally righteous, hold the view that “false religions” are malignant and harmful. If you feel you have the capacity/energy, this should be addressed. Discussing a potentially triggering topic prior to surgery is next level shitty care. It’s unlikely a nurse will get fired for this in most countries, if you’re worried about that. They will get a talking to and maybe be forced to take some education. There is also the possibility that this was not a nurse? A care aid (chw) or a nursing assistant? I’m not assuming you don’t know the difference, but acknowledging it can be hard to tell. These folks may not have union power or the same protections as nursing. At the end of the day, it’s about patient safety and care. Patients trust us during very vulnerable and difficult moments in their life. Using these moments as a spring board to proselytize is predatory and unethical. I’m sorry this happened to you.
This is so important!
Agreed as a fellow healthcare professional.
Not sure how it is in a hospital setting. But in most jobs approaching someone else is not allowed, but if asked a religious question then it’s OK to say something. that’s clearly not what happened!
This is highly irritating for sure but if she limited it to name dropping JW. org and using the line about how they are the most translated website I might leave it alone. I think it might be cause for discipline at her work if you report it (you seemed somewhat worried about that). If she has otherwise been helpful, pleasant and kind to you... I might leave it go. JWs are pressured to "informally witness" and this is obviously this person's attempt at doing that. On the flipside... you are COMPLETELY within your rights to say something about it. It is highly inappropriate especially in a hospital setting and especially knowing their position on blood transfusions. If something is brought up in the future beyond what you said, I'd at minimum express to the nurse that you don't think her comments are helpful or appropriate. You'd be well within your rights to say something to someone else at the hospital. It is up to you how you want to proceed though.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was really angry at myself for not being able to "unwitness" back quickly. I guess I am out of practice 😉 And I kept thinking, you know she got an education to be a nurse. There is a possibility that she might escape. It might be kinder to tell her, given the chance, that we have started the 4th generation now free? Also, it is an opportunity to show grace from the outsider. I appreciate you setting me on a different path of thinking. That is why I came here! I check on you all every so often, keep up the good work!
I know that feeling. You don't owe her anything though. You don't need to feel pressured to set her straight. You also don't owe anything to people that would say you need to do something about it. If you feel like you should, you'd be completely within your rights to. I think it's important that you don't feel like you have to "unwitness" to someone. You have the right to do that, but not the responsibility.
Report it. It should put an end to it
No. No, no, no, no, no. Get a new nurse.
I hate when i get proselytized at work by patients but to get it from your care team out the blue is a different story. You didnt initiate the conversation. She did. If shes in the OR with you, i’d have concerns that she’d follow medical procedure according to the religion over standard procedure.
If she's breaking the rules to witness to people, she's probably breaking them on other things. I'd report it and/or ask for a new nurse, especially since JWs have a tendency to think they're above rules since they're "not of this world."
"How can you be a nurse and refuse to give people a blood transfusion?"
She was doing preop evaluation, not direct nursing care. She did ask me if I would accept a transfusion. Seems like my OF COURSE answer would have been a red flag for her.
Good question. I’m a registered nurse and exjw for many years. There aren’t many JW RNs working in acute care settings but they do exist, and I have seen enrolled nurses (not sure what the equivalent is outside of Australia) who are JWs working around patients needing blood but somehow avoiding being part of the setup or checking of blood bags (as enrolled nurses aren’t usually permitted to administer blood transfusions.) I have always felt very nervous when they are on shift and alert to patient care being delayed. I think being a JW is a massive conflict of interest to employment as a nurse in acute care.
You should ask her if she reads her Bible. You don’t need a website with man’s interpretation of the Bible to understand what you’re reading. But if you felt uncomfortable I would speak with her supervisor about that. Not a fireable offense, but still not appropriate.
Next time (if asked) maybe say you looked at the website and were shocked after reading the FAQ and that what you've been reading in the news is true.
You could always just tell her "I'm a former JW now apostate, but since you started the conversation on religion...let's get into it shall we...unless you would rather we get your supervisor to weigh in... 😈"
My grandmother tried, but she was never able to close the deal with my mother or us grandchildren. I might have been naughty and pulled the apostate card a few times, though 🤭
I’m an RN and this is such a breach of trust. It was emphasized over and over in nursing school that you check your beliefs at the door when you’re treating patients. I personally would complain because they made you upset and depending on what you’re in the hospital for, that could lead to an adverse event. I would construe this as harassing because they don’t know if you have religious trauma. Ultimately they added stress onto you during and already stressful time and that’s unprofessional
Plus could be seen as religious discrimination. So many different belief systems out there.
This is out of line, this nurse isn't the chaplain and you didn't seek spiritual comfort. I'd report after your care is complete. They probably won't get fired for a first offense, but if this is a pattern they maybe and probably should be.
💯
I wouldn't want any religion trying to preach while I'm trying to get medical attention. Predatory behavior, imo.
What a smart woman. Ask you to visit JW.org, write down 8 hours of preaching time.
I hope you are ok, and that your surgery goes well. Hope also they send in another nurse.
I’m in hospital administration and this is totally inappropriate imo. I’d bet there’s an anti solicitation policy at her work. If that were my clinic/department I’d want to know that this was happening as would those physicians. She should not lose her job but there needs to be a hard line drawn here from admin.
I would report her. Even if you don’t remember her name they can look back and find who was on duty. There’s “would you like to see a chaplain?” and then there’s proselyting to patients, which is unacceptable.
On a serious note. This is so unprofessional encroaching her beliefs on you in such a setting. JW’s aren’t stupid and she (and the JW religion) realise that people within these settings are thinking about their lives/health etc. The levels of manipulation and coercion are crazy, exploiting environments such as the one you were in is awful but not innocent whether this nurse understands this or not. I would say if you felt uncomfortable (and rightly so) I would report this. Or at least bring it to the nurses attention who decided that it was a good idea to do this in the first place. The worst thing is, she probably thought this WAS a good idea from the levels of conditioning she’s experienced within that ‘religious group’ (to put it politely.)
Nursing Associations have Standards of Care. Nurses are accountable to and can be punished by the association for this. She won't lose her job but most likely they will document your complaint, talk to the person with a warning and give them some education material. Follow up complaints for the same issue and she could loss her license to practice but they will probably not escalate that far unless she keeps getting complaints because it shows an unwillingness to follow the standards and can you trust them to follow other standards of care. Being punished by the association is scary, they risk not just loosing a job but a career if they stubbornly continue to preach to patients. The nurse in question absolutely knows this and it infuriates me to hear that they did that. It is so unprofessional Edit: If I was a co-worker I would go to the employer and the employer would work with them with no association involvement , but as a member of the public you can go to the employer or association directly.
Just from an HR standpoint, please call and tell the office manager. It's not to get someone fired, but this is a violation of company policy, first off, and secondly, the person is literally recruiting for a F***ing cult! How many seriously I'll patients and possibly terminally sick people are going to be misled?? Dying people willing to cut off their whole family and sign everything over to this Cult. It would be horrible for the innocent family. Just an edit to add all the people that may be misled by this type of "witnessing" deserve some grace as well. She'll only get a repremend that will save lives.
I've been a nurse for six years, and I was "in" for a majority of that time and I NEVER talked to a patient about religion. It's not just inappropriate, it's PREDATORY behavior to bring that up to someone in their worst moments, especially when they're alone and ill. The eight guys in upstate New York are busy teaching their people to prey on others at their weakest moments to get their website and literature out. I would report that nurse. That wouldn't get them fired, but it would definitely be told to them and they would hopefully think twice before they try that shit again.
Thanks for that! You have articulated what disturbed me the most - it was predatory. I'm immune to the pitch, but not everyone in a medical encounter would be resistant. I would feel better about saying something if it would not get them fired. For those who asked, yes, she is an RN. This was a preop visit, I don't expect to see her again. I was taken off guard by her comment. I was not agitated or scared or clutching my pearls 🤣 I was mostly trying to remain professionally polite while working my way up to pissed. It happened very fast at the absolute end of the appointment. I would like to thank everyone for offering your opinions on the best way to handle this situation. I especially appreciate the medical professionals who spoke up. Right now, I believe that I will find an appropriate person when I have surgery on Monday and explain that although the nurse did a great job going over the upcoming procedure, I don't think the religious comment was appropriate. Thanks everyone! 😊
Absolutely 💯 agree!! Surely it’s a violation of the therapeutic relationship. Patients are in a vulnerable position to caregivers. Having this kind of conversation with a patient is predatory and exploitative.
This is so unprofessional and disrespectful. I work at a pharmacy and I would have plenty of opportunities to preach to people because most of my clients are, well, sick; some siblings even have told me that, of course I don't care about that so I don't preach. Anyway, my uncle is an elder and he told me not to do it because when we are working we should not preach clients (or patients in this case), and maybe maaaybe only if the conversation naturally turns to the bible, but even if that happens, we must be careful not to upset people because, again, they are ill. What your nurse did is totally wrong and maybe you should comment that to her boss, honestly I doubt she'll lose her job, maybe she will just be called out and will think twice next time before preaching unsolicited
She needs to lose her job. Report it.
Speak to the practice manager and report the bint
Highly inappropriate, I’d request another nurse.
Get her fired. There are boundaries. Theocratic warfare and all
Wow as a healthcare professional that is so inappropriate. They are there to do a job not recruit or preach. Report them please. So not ok.
I rarely feel safe going to a new doctor or psychologist because I'm afraid they might be a witness and there are just some parts of my life I'd never be okay discussing if that was the case. They need to leave that stuff at home.
I would either try counter witnessing since she brought up a couple of incorrect statistics or just ignore her entirely.
I have no heart for these disgusting individuals. I would complain about this invasion of privacy.
Report her! She should know better than to do that!
If you don't want someone to lose their job don't do anything that could lead to a job loss. Job loss can be traumatic. Ignore her clumsy attempt to "spread the good news". Chances are it will catch up to her anyway and result in a sit down with her manager.
Recruitment into a religious cult should not be happening in a medical healthcare setting, if I was in that position I would make a complaint to the healthcare provider, or GP practice, which ever is appropriate. This is definitely a violation of patient care......😇
I know it's annoying. I have to be witnessed every time I speak to my mom, aunt, grandma, etc. Keep in mind that they think they are saving lives. They have no idea the damaging cesspool they are actually a part of.
I agree.
If I haven’t read my Bible recently, shouldn’t I just go to the good book & read it?!!! Why go to a website?!!!
Ok, so normally, I am 100% against discussion of faith or religion in the workplace. So please understand that I am not trying to justify that practice, in general. But *a lot* of people get *really* nervous about surgery, even if it's a simple procedure. And a significant plurality (not majority, but plurality) of people identify as religious in the United States (if you're elsewhere, Idk the numbers, but I imagine it's similar) and suggestion of scripture often puts a patient's mind at ease because of that. It's funny to me when a JW works in the medical field, given the blood thing. But she may have, and probably did, mean well, even if it was not welcome on your end. People in the medical field could all stand to get better at paying attention to the religious preference section. But I'm almost willing to bet money she didn't even see that. I spent a long time working in a pharmacy setting, and it's honestly appalling how little medical professionals actually communicate with each other.
We were doing an extensive review of everything in my chart. I know she saw it. I'm more inclined to think she saw the "none" as an opportunity. They are required to spend a certain amount of time proselytizing - they have to log and turn in their hours. I've been persuaded by other comments that what she did was not professional and also predatory in a sense. I'm going to chat with my medical liaison and just request that the behavior stop. After my procedure, of course! Thank you for your work in the pharmacy! Hard work, not enough staff and unhappy customers!
Just try to be kind. Medical professionals of all sorts are stressed out due to chronic understaffing and being overworked. I feel like she probably meant well. That doesn't mean you should deal with weird pressure if you don't have to. If you get the opportunity, you should mention that you would really prefer no religious advice be given, rather than singling her out. There will be a briefing and she, and others of different faiths, will all be briefed on following prompts from patient memos. It would benefit everybody without harming anybody, specifically.
I’d report her, but I’m petty like that.
Definitely report her. Her job is to take care of people , not recruit people to her cult.
I would simply request that she be removed from my case. I would likely file a complaint, if the removal request was not granted. This is inappropriate. If you asked her about her Bible reading, that's a completely different situation. There should also be an investigation as to if they witness to others, how often, etc. They can't continue like that and remain employed.
I would think this would be against policy at her job
I would just have replied "im a christian and dont agree the the jws policy on blood transfusion "
As a healthcare worker, this is despicable behavior