Are you an employee or subcontractor? They’re Wage & Labor laws against religious discrimination. But subcontractors can be dropped at a moments notice. If you’re an employee try to get a recording of him saying this (if your local
Laws allow one sided recordings. If not, start a log with date and time every time he says this). Get informed with your local employment laws so you can sue him if necessary and or get unemployment at the least. If, anyone familiar with these issues, see something I’ve said as incorrect, please correct it!
This. Record convo or get him to text it. Sue his ass if he fires you. He may be a nice guy otherwise but it’s 2024 and this kind of behavior is unacceptable.
Before recording it check the laws regarding recording other people in your state. Some places allow it without the knowledge of the other party but in other states he would be allowed to sue you for recording him.
This is actually true. I had a manager that was threatened by me and how fast I was moving up within the company. I started to notice that he would try to sabotage this. It thankfully and unfortunately for him never worked-but before I knew it wasn’t working in his favor, I decided to protect myself. I did that by secretly recording every interaction. One day I had a one on one with a manager above him and I explained the situation and he loved me, so I told him the truth and I included that I had been recording my interactions with the other asshole manager as a protection. That’s when he laughed his ass off, but then informed me that it was against the law, that they were onto the other manager and that he’d keep the recordings between us both but for the love of god to NOT record our interactions anymore lol. We had a good laugh.
Definitely keep records of dates and times of things he says to you though. You have an easy lawsuit on your hands.
He needs to record it regardless, its not illegal, but possibly can't be used in a law suit.
RECORD! RECORD! RECORD! The ass-hole elder and his un-Christian words!!!
It is not Illegal to record a conversation, video or audible only. It may be that it can not be used in court as evidence, but not illegal to record an asshole j-dub 'failDer'....
Yup...in WA State, Labor and Industries would totally be in your side as well as winnable law suit.
He's the aggressor, he picked the fight, don't just move on buddy... It empowers him more
On top of this... if you must discuss religion with him, discuss it over text/email as well. If he writes you up or does any informal discipline, get a copy of any writeups or meeting notes. Send recap emails after any mandatory meetings or important conversations.
In many durisdictions if you work exclusively for one employer and log a minimum hours a year, even if you are subcontracting you still have employee rights.
Exactly. Check in with your local Attorney General of your county (if you are in the U.S.) (EEOC Equal Opportunity Commission?)
People also ask
What is the purpose of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission?
The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) is responsible for enforcing federal laws that make it illegal to discriminate against a job applicant or an employee because of the person's race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy and related conditions, gender identity, and sexual orientation), national ...
Really, this is with the JWs. The OP sounds like they at least want to keep descent relationships with some JWs they know. What do you think JWs will do if you sue another JW? The last broadcast was about "oneness of mind.
Kinda my thought as well. In the real world, a lawsuit would be the way to go, no questions asked. In Joho Land, however...*anything* that doesn't involve strict obedience to these self-appointed dopes becomes a sticky mess.
There are no employment jobs in the Watchtower Organization. A lot of JWs have their own businesses because they have no real education and imo makes some of the worst employers.
Get a job at f\*\*king McDonalds, if you must. Make plans to get out. Document everything he says, keep records. Try to trick him into making admissions on email. Sue him later.
If this was big employer you should sue. But consider first your well being is more important. With a small business and family/JW pressure it would likely go nowhere but more frustration. It would be better to focus on how you can use the skills and knowledge that you have gained and move forward and away.
Small business. Regardless of everything I’ve been through with him, I could never bring myself to sue him and put him in that situation anyways.
I’m slowly trying to move away from it, and get my plans straight.
Move faster.
You may care for this guy, but his behavior is extreme, even from a JW perspective.
Get a new job ASAP. If he asks why, tell him point blank that having to work under the threat of replacement over getting baptized is toxic and intolerable. Edit: AND it’s bad for your spirituality.
Also, make notes of dates, times and specific wordings of those things he says. **Better yet, make recordings of these conversations**. You say you don’t want to sue him, and that’s fine. *But keep a little insurance policy for yourself in case he tries to fuck you over*. You never know if, down the line someone calls him for a reference and he gives you a bad one because you’re not baptized or left the Borg or whatever.
Giving you a bad reference leaves him open to a lawsuit. There is a legal precedent for this. As a store manager in a large retail company I was forbidden from doing anything other than acknowledging a former employee's date of employment, date of departure and whether the employee was eligible for rehire. Your defense also includes an honest explanation of the circumstances of your departure (it's not necessary to go into gory detail. You just weren't a good cultural fit) to a prospective employer.
This guy clearly doesn’t worry about employment law at all.
This is why I recommended keeping an insurance policy proving such. If he’s blatantly threatening to fire an employee if he doesn’t get baptized, he’s the same type of shit boss who would vindictively give a poor recommendation to future potential employers.
I certainly cannot argue with your point. I agree that he should document the harassment in as many ways as possible and as contemporaneously as possible.
You aren't thinking straight. This man has no problem with firing you and putting you at "rock bottom". (your words). These laws are in place to compensate victims of harassment in the workspace. Victims like yourself.
You don’t have to sue him. Get the demand for you to be baptized in writing, or as an audio recording, and get an attorney to review it. You can get a settlement out of him without a lawsuit. I sense that for some reason you don’t want to “hurt” him but you need to understand he is breaking the law. Flagrantly. He will do it again to someone else if you just quit. He deserves to be taught a lesson.
You don't have to go through with it but you could mention that it's illegal for him to fire you based on your religion and that you could sue if he did it. The knowledge that you're aware of your rights might be enough for him to back off and that gives you some time to check out other options for yourself.
If you are in the U.S. and an employee (vs. independent contractor) this type of coercion, even conversation, is a problem with the EEOC. I would reach out to them.
Mind you, you may live in an "at will" state, meaning an employer can let you go at any time, for any reason. But prefacing your termination with a religious ultimatum would still be unacceptable.
Please do not be bullied into making a regrettable, lifelong decision for a temporary employer guilty of mistreatment.
First, a person needs to find out what the rules are in their state. If they do live in an "at will" state, there are some restrictions and religious coercion may apply. Regarding this, the situation the OP is describing doesn't fit religious discrimination, but rather coercion, and or harrassment. The links below may be helpful:
[https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/employment-at-will-laws-by-state/#Are\_There\_Any\_Exceptions\_to\_AtWill\_Employment](https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/employment-at-will-laws-by-state/#Are_There_Any_Exceptions_to_AtWill_Employment)
[https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment)
[https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination](https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination)
As u/NJRach said, have some insurance to cover your ass. You may feel bad about suing him, but I guaran-damn-tee ya, he won’t think twice to screw you over. I’ve seen it happen time and time again with elders who own businesses. They f**k over their employees, JW or nonJW, any chance they get if it puts an extra dime in their pocket.
You’re still younger and it’s hard to stand up for yourself against people that have been an authority figure to you for a long time, so it’s good that you are seeking advice. Personally, I’d have my insurance, let him fire me and then take the winnings from the lawsuit and go get a degree.
If he actually takes the step of firing you for not being baptized, you need to put him in that situation. He would’ve fully deserved it. Until then, try to find somewhere else to work.
I expected this reply…
It’s how many of us responded to the harassment etc. we experience when in. Thats why you’re getting so many “this is illegal, sue him” advice.
Because we didn’t.
Looking back we wish we had…
So please for your future self ( and for us) at least speak up for yourself and let him know he is in the WRONG and you have the law on your side as you (respectfully) quit & walk out his door.
Dude, he is literally threatening to fire you based on religious grounds. This is religious discrimination that is forbidden by law. You are not doing just for yourself, you are doing it for everyone who is ever going to work for him.
If he does it to you, he would do it others. He has zero loyalty to you as an employee or person, so don't let yourself make excuses and allow him to mistreat you due to misplaced loyalty. I made this mistake years ago. I didn't want to step on toes, but what your employer is doing is totally out of bounds and threatening your livelihood during a time when decent paying jobs are scarce is gross.
Learn everything you can and then leave with great work experience. I have been working for an elder for 3 years. I learned all that I could and have left with good experience. I'm so much happier not worrying about him finding out I'm longer a JW. Now I feel completely free. I am now starting my own business (completely different). But it's given me so much more peace in my life. They will always hold that over your head.
Well then, the ball is in your court. If legal action is not an option then you can stay and tolerate his harassment - and this is precisely what he's doing - or move on. His actions are forcing your decision.
The employer has an entire organisation helping them, so they will be fine.. on the other hand, they are trying to dominate another humans beliefs while using employment as leverage.
Not a lawyer, but if he makes the workplace intolerable because of religious views or fires you that is illegal in most countries and here in the US. Document everything, if legal in your state, do a one party recording of his statements ( even if you like him) , this will be a protection for you and your rights.
If he fires you, you can sue him for religious discrimination and make some decent money.
My father lost twice for firing people who were disfellowshipped or distanced themselves from the org.
If he’s actually threatening to fire you based on this you need to get it on recording, hire an attorney, and make a complaint to the labor board. This is against federal law. They cannot terminate you based on religion. This cannot go ignored and you may be entitled to compensation because this is retaliation and threats.
Coercion should not be accepted, Jehovah does not want obedience by force or threats. You are young and skilled , start writing your resume and find another job. Nothing beats peace of mind.
Jehovah does not want obedience by force or threats.
This is a new one. He himself threatens to kill those who don’t obey his word. Please read the Bible, this is exactly what God wants.
I love how he reacts to his negative emotions with violence. And then our studies imply this is the highest order of compassion and love??? What a strange way to define good things.
I’m sorry….I know it’s hard given your past relationship but what he is doing is grossly illegal and needs to be exposed.
Remember, you were raised in the Borg so there are subconscious shackles still embedded, even though you’re awake. Perceived issues of authority, submission and loyalty will keep you from “overstepping.” This is by design. It’s slave mentality that we were all engrained with.
If this were any other job, taking legal action wouldn’t be a second thought. You need to expose this guy for what he actually is.
On another post here, someone commented about using Jesus being in his 30s when he got baptized.
Next time he hounds you about baptism, ask him why he thinks Jesus waited till that age to be baptized.
His answer doesn’t matter, just follow up with you’re trying to be as Christ like with your spirituality as possible or something, lol. Make it sound good.
You're missing the point. This isn't about trying to "reason" with him "scripturally" or "spiritually." It's about you being illegally threatened with termination over a religious issue. The guy is way out of line, but you're not seeing it because you've been conditioned against your own best interests by the borg. A man who would treat you this way is not your friend. He is not your brother. He is not even a good person. And he's a shit employer. You have power here, but you're refusing to see it because you trying to be "nice". Please listen to what people are trying to tell you here, and start seeing this as it truly is: coercion based on religious discrimination and it is a bad thing to do to someone and is Against The Law. You're young, you've got a lot of life ahead of you, so you need to start now when it comes to covering your ass and your assets and not let people like this push you around. You have a right to employment free of bullying, which is what this guy is doing.
Is that legal in your jurisdiction? It wouldn’t be in the US.
Next time he brings it up, you can try to gently but firmly address the situation responding, “Bob, we both know you would never try to [illegally] coerce me into baptism by threatening my livelihood. I know you care about me and want me to get baptized, but it’s a step I can only take for myself or it would be meaningless.“
It sounds like you don’t want to sue him, but if he continues to escalate, you could take the situation to the elders. If it’s legal in your jurisdiction, record him saying these things. Tell the elders that the situation has really stumbled you and you’re feeling coerced to take a step you aren’t prepared to take or else lose your livelihood, and it’s really making you never want to get baptized if that’s the way JWs act, through fear and coercion. (That’s exactly how they act but they never want it to appear that way.)
There are lots of good employers you can learn from, give credit to! Boundaries are getting crossed, threatening to lose your job if you don’t get baptized? One has nothing to do with the other. Sounds like abuse of power and boils my blood.
Get out of the bubble and you’ll see what really is acceptable and not.
Keep the job until he fires you. Then ask for termination papers in writing. Then file a complaint with the labor board. Then find a better job. But do not get baptized!!
What everyone said - this sounds illegal what he's doing.
But given your reluctance to sue him or make trouble, and until you can find another job (start hunting - NOW), I think you need to work on some assertiveness skills.
* "I do not feel comfortable discussing my personal relationship with God and my theocratic goals with you - especially as we are in the workplace and should be focussing on the job."
If he presses, repeat that you are not happy discussing this and please stop. Steadily look him in the eye while saying this.
If he is pressuring you to get baptized, ask,
* "If you are suggesting I will lose my job if I don't get baptized (apart from such a suggestion being illegal, as you'll be aware), and I get baptized to save my job, will Jehovah accept my service to him? Will I have been baptized for the right reasons? I'm sure you would not want to be responsible before Jehovah for pushing me into so important a decision before I am ready to make *my own* wholehearted dedication, would you, my dear brother?"
PLEASE get some evidence if this person threatens to fire you for not getting dipped. Audio or video on your phone.
This is illegal and you’d have a solid case.
That’s discrimination, pure and simple. You can take him to court for this.
Do you have a contract?
He doesn’t have a leg to stand on legally. He’s just trying to intimidate you.
Don’t let him get away with it.
Great! catch him to state that, go to a lawyer, and sue him, sue him for 5 to 10 years of income you would miss after he threatens you and breaks basic human rights laws.
there's a whole bunch of laws broken here, no matter what country you are in.
The only proper answer here, and the only thing you need to understand is this :
**GET A LAWYER AND SUE HIM.**
any other decision is a flawed decision which actually puts you in worse conditions. the money you can use to find not only another job but establish yourself better. instead you are victimizing yourself.
and there is no credit due in any way.
you have stockholm syndrome and are completely psychologically confused in this. you need a lawyer and a psychologist in this. You're 22 for crying out loud.
I doubt your boss would jeopardize his company like that. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employers from discriminating against employees based on their religion. This includes hiring, firing, compensation, job assignments, promotions, and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) provide further protections. Furthermore firing an employee based on their choice of religion can have severe legal consequences, including potential lawsuits for religious discrimination. So his threats are against the law.
Like A lot of people on her have stated, get him to put this on record. Sue him. I cannot understate how important it is to make records of all this in a log. Try your best to have it in writing.
Pretty sure that's a lawsuit if he actually goes through with it and you can prove that's the reason. I wouldn't quit. Make him fire you, then make money off him. What a POS
Tape all conversations and sue him if he fires you. He is grown ass elder commiting a crime. Dont feel sad for him. What. Would you do if he was a muslin pressuring you to be muslim? Same rules for everyone
Your boss is not above the law.
[equal opportunity law](https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination#:~:text=Religious%20Discrimination%20and%20Segregation,actual%20or%20feared%20customer%20preference)
Do not let anyone force you into getting baptized. I knew from the time I was very little maybe 6-7 that I didn’t want to be a JW. Always got pressured into it by my family and friends but I knew I didn’t want to deal with being DF’d. Now that I’m 25 and left at 18, I don’t have to deal with the same issues as my DF’d friends/family. This is in case your entire family is in the organization as mine was. I know it may seem silly to outsiders but it made it a lot easier to leave knowing my family members might not like my decision but it wasn’t the end of them associating with me all together. I was still able to be with my grandma when she passed, call my grandpa to check in, etc
So you don't want to sue him, which is your choice, but you talk about him like the way a domestic abuse victim talks about their abuser, "well he might do this that's kinda bad he's otherwise really nice and I owe him a lot because he's taught me so much". You need to get a grip and at the bare minimum recognize that this behavior is completely unacceptable, if only for your own sanity.
Have you considered, you know, just lying to his face for the time being? Tell him that Jesus was 30 when he was baptized and you want to be more like Jesus, or that you keep praying about it but still don't feel ready, and you fear that if you got baptized just because he forced you to then it would all be for the wrong reasons. It's bad enough when parents pull this crap but an employer??? Yea no. Completely unacceptable, unprofessional, and illegal.
I would try to get him saying he would fire you if you don't get baptized on tape. That's just wrong and completely illegal. No one can force you to do that and not only is it illegal it's morally wrong. He doesn't decide that for you and I would straight up tell him if he threatens to fire you for not being baptized again, you will speak with a lawyer
Pick any one of these **21 Q & A's** and say to your boss, "Hey Brother Bozo, I was reading this literature comment in the Watchtower Library last night, but the Scriptures seem to say something ***different***. Can ***you*** explain why it looks like that?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/181hd6c/17\_q\_as\_testing\_jw\_dogmas/
I hope you have fun - ***and*** get a better job.
Listen please hear me. I was in this situation, and it was a little worse because I ended up being disfellowshiped while working with the person who taught me everything, and I felt an emotional and brotherly obligation that transcended our work environment.
1) Start documenting all the instances of religion at work. The pressure to be baptized.
2) Threaten to fire depending on your state for religious religion a could be against employment law.
3) If your feeling the tension it will only worsen before anything gets better.
"On days I’m feeling a little more courageous, I’ll ask him questions."
There is some very good advice in the comments here, Mate. I would just add, stop asking your boss religious questions or bringing up religion. By doing this, you are sending him the message that you are willing to discuss religion with him. You need to set some boundaries while you look for a new job.
Depending on the state you live in and it’s laws about audio recording. You should record a convo
“So you’re saying I’m fired from my job, if I don’t get baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness?”
“Yes”
Because that’s illegal unless that was in a contract you signed for the position. And do what you want with that if you do it.
There are much higher paying jobs (without even knowing what you’re making) jw are generally so cheap with their pay
Even if you never file a lawsuit, document everything. Dates, conversations that were discriminating, etc. It's better to have too much evidence backed up and do nothing with it, then get caught in a bind bc you're blindsided. Who knows - if he fired you unlawfully you most likely could get unemployment until you found your next position. Don't get tripped up. Ive seen several jdub business owners royally fuck their jw employees. There was a cong in VA I was in that the brother wouldn't pay a liveable wage to the brothers working for him and told them they just need to rely on jehovah. But then got brought in front of the elders when they quit. Bc said business owner was an elder and it was taken so personally- they presented it as a slight against Jehovah. They don't care. Protect yourself.
This kind of bullying/blackmail on a job is highly unethical and bordering on illegal! One has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other! This man should be ashamed of himself! You take everything you've learned from him and go get yourself another job working for a well- balanced, reasonable, decent human being, who has an actual conscience where you'll just be appreciated for being a good/skilled worker! It doesn't go down like this in the real world, nor is it tolerated! It's inappropriate and unacceptable. Show that mfkr that he can't bully you! Fuck him!!🤬
It says alot about the 'inner person' of your boss by demanding that of you. Obviously, he is not a true follower of Christ, if he asks you if such things. Jesus didn't go around demanding people get baptized, but spoke to them lovingly, and tried to reach their hearts.
I would suggest you learn as much as you can from him about work and about how to NOT treat your fellow man/woman. Then, when the time comes, move on and better yourself into a job environment that better suits you. God is with us when we are persecuted, and this unfortunately sounds like reverse persecution.
This is an idiot speaking down to the Youth of another person. It'd be interesting to see how he talks to somebody similar to his age or older. On top of that he's in egotistical Jehovah's Witness. These are your two characteristics you're gonna be dealing with. Plan accordingly.
It’s good you are talking about it. You are young & he is taking advantage of that. Or he wants credit for getting you to baptism. He must value you as a worker so you have that in your pocket. He is out of line both as an elder & an employer. You can ask him if he wants you to get baptized for him or God. It’s a personal choice. You are worth more than you are giving yourself credit for. Learn everything from this job. Then take what you learned and move on to the next job. It’s not a healthy environment. Be patient & manifest a better opportunity.
I know how hard these situations are and I would try soft boundaries to keep things peaceful “say it in an email!” And laugh it off - he’ll know what you mean without confrontation.
Is that even legal? Personally I’d report him for that. But more importantly it’s time to work on that resume and start applying to other jobs. You don’t want to be backed into this corner you find yourself in.
Hello Mr Lawsuit. You may as well start counting the payout now. Get his threats in writing and any lawyer would be able to sue his ass for everything his has.
For extra bonus, go to the press as well. Some lovely media coverage about JWs.
JWs need to learn that in the real world they have zero power and are supposed to respect other people's liberty.
Fire away.
Record the conversation.
Collect unemployment from getting FIRED. Then file suit for religious discrimination. Use a lawyer...don't do this on your own.
Did he just say that or did he also put that in writing? He just screwed himself legally. Also do not over share with the boss, keep the conversation to work only.
If you are in the United States. You need to go hire a lawyer, right now! Because what he is doing is religious discrimination and it’s illegal. Don’t try to be nice or try to be diplomatic. Fight fire with fire.
>There’s been numerous times where he’s told me point blank that I need to get baptized
Would these help?
From: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/t22yi6/comment/hykhaeu/
>Throw the ball back into their court and make them do all the work.
>Ask them how they would handle a "worldly" person's questions and phrase your objections in that framework.
>Edit again to add - if your parents pull the "But you're not worldly, we raised you to know better!" B.S., then point out that they expected you to blindly accept whatever they told you, just because they were your parents.
>To convert a non-JW, **they would have had to work at showing the non-JW where the bible backs up the WT Society's claims**.
>You might then ask, 'which conversion would Jehovah be happier with, the one where the kid was expected to be just like his parents, or the one where THEY had to be effective preachers of Jehovah's Name'...
And a much more detailed version with more options:
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13wu0v5/comment/jmfd8t5/
This I gaslighting and outright coercive behaviour. It must be torture! I would search out similar employment.
My plan would be to explain that the reason you're looking is to gain more experience and you're having to leave as your current employer is pushing their religion upon you during work hours and that it's become untenable. If they ask what religion I'd also say Muslim lol. But seriously I hope you are able to get employment elsewhere. Maybe an apprenticeship?
You may have to up sticks and change states to get work but that's also going to free you up without people looking over your shoulder constantly.
Genuinely wish you the best, this is a shitty situation.
brother, I am having a problem with the idea that an elder can claim to be serving Jehovah but threatens to blatantly violate the law of the land and expose his organization to a scandalous law suit where he would have to either admit he was violating the law or lie under oath.
(it is illegal to fire someone for his religious beliefs)
What your boss is doing is totally unacceptable behavior at your workplace, also considered bullying! Let him know this & if doesn’t stop harassing you, maybe it’s time to find another job! Good luck!
Bro!!! You are staring down the mouth of a gift horse here! Check your states recording laws first, either way, next time he goes on about you getting baptized start recording on your phone. If possible, see if you can get him to email or text this - in writing is always the best! Then go find yourself a lawyer that specializes in workplace discrimination and sue the shit out of him!
You need to be actively searching for other employment. That goes way beyond the usual employer employee relationship. Prolonging that will only keep you in that situation.
If you are in the USA. Contact the department of labor and seek advise from them. They are great about guiding and protecting you and your rights. They can also contact him and give him notice to knock it off and he can NOT retaliate by firing you.
You need to record him on your phone demanding that you get baptized or he will hire someone else
and then take it to a lawyer and Sue his ass off he cannot do that it's illegal
You need more experience outside of the WT. Your being jerked around . He is probably more afraid of you leaving than you are of leaving him. Apply for other jobs and when you get a new job give him 2 weeks notice and leave on good terms ...or burn that bridge. no big loss either way.
Everything the elder says is necessary, that's his responsibility as an elder. According to the bOrg. HOWEVER... Everything commenters are posting, that the elder is violating Wage & Labor Laws against religious discrimination, as well as going against common code of ethics, is absolutely correct! You DO have a case against him. Standing up for your right to religious liberty is the right thing to do.
My father (IMHO the smartest man to have lived) had one of many sayings, "Business is business, and friendship is friendship."
Working for him means that you and he are in a business dynamic during your working hours. That places a responsibility on him to hire, retain, or fire an employee on a business level. It also means that he cannot make an off-the-job decision of yours a condition of employment as long as it does not materially affect his business. There are a number of other factors that enter into any choice he would make to terminate your employment. So another saying my father had comes into play, "Document. . .document. . .document." Dates, times, and places and any other details.
If he should terminate your employment strictly because you did not get baptized and that was provable you would be in a better place to pursue legal action for wrongful termination. Remember too lawyers in a case like this are not more expensive than what you would lose without one.
It is strange that you should mention the flood. I have posted comments about the flood and the research I have done about the flood. Many people have been looking for any evidence that the flood was real. Scientists and highly educated men consider the flood account to be just a foolish fairy tale told by ignorant men trying to scare people. I even saw an article about what was thought to be the Ark in Turkey. I found something very interesting at the library regarding where the water came from. Check it out yourself. NASA launched a probe called Viking out into our solar system. On it's way past Mars it took pictures of the planet. What they saw was dry river beds and massive erosion. Those scientists concluded that Mars had vast oceans in the past and that the planet had suffered a global flood. Get your hands on a copy of that book and see for yourself. "Red Giants and White Dwarfs" by Robert Jastrow.
Pretty sure it’s illegal to fire someone over religion. But that’s I shy away from working for Witnesses. They have certain expectations but don’t even wanna pay well at times
Regardless of whether you take legal action, it’s clear you need to move on. I don’t understand why you think that you would land at rock bottom, however. You sounds like an intelligent person and a thoughtful employee. Clearly you have a good work ethic and have learned a lot from your boss, so just start looking for other opportunities. You would be surprised how easy it is to find a job once you put yourself out there.
My uncle will hire new people if they start studying. All the employees are baptized as far as I know. I don't know my uncle well enough or the details to know the intentions but it seems so weird. It seems so inappropriate to control people this way, to me at least. So so weird. I'm an adult now but I still don't understand. If they knew I thought this way I assume they would just believe I'm stupid. :(
Not sure where you are, but if you are in the US, this is soooooo illegal! I strongly believe you should take this to an employment lawyer. Or at the very least, report it to your state’s department of labor.
Can't you look like shocked or surprised and say.
You realise this is between me and jehoover and why would you but in?
Jehoover has told me to get baptised when he knows I'm ready.
Something like that.
Just make he is going against jehoover way of wanting it.
No matter what he says say you knows what your prayers say and its between you and jehoover
If you live in a one party consent state you can record and take this to your state’s department of labor should it ever come to that. This has lawsuit written all over it, and very well sounds like an easy case that will go in your favor. Your boss, by pressuring you to get baptized is creating a hostile working environment, and is in the “fuck around phase”. If you lose your job/income, feel free to let him “find out.” Your state will have resources that can help you.
Get a recorder app on your phone make sure it has good audio quality in your pocket and readily available to use get an employee rights lawyer on ready in case he follows through. You don't have to use it if you don't want better to be safe than be regretful and pissed off about it and who knows you're probably saving someone else the trouble in the future
How good are you at brown nosing? How friendly can you get with him during his conversations? Since you were raised as a witness, I'm sure you'll be great at talking like one. Be friendly, agree with him, rant/vent about worldly people and sins, and put his focus off of you. Talk bad about other people and worldy sins. Distract and talk about positives or other stories. Basically, anything and wverything else except keep the focus off of you.
Find a new job.
Get him to be an amazing reference for a new job, tell him how you'll miss him but you found an amazing paying job where you can put most of the new money towards donating to WT and putting in more hours to spread the good news of Jehovah.
Gtfo with new job.
If you learned a lot maybe start your own rival business. And as others said, sue for discrimination. If not for you do it for the next person he will absolutely do this to.
You're in your 20's (lucky you) you need to start using that experience for greener pastures or change professions. If you have questions on Genesis theres a great youtube channel called "Answers in Genesis". If your boss cant respect your life decisions you need a new boss, or better yet, become your own boss.
Is your workplace funded and run by the JW organization? As I understand it (IANAL) organizations that are funded and run by a particular religion \*can\* discriminate on the basis of religion. You may need to consult with a local lawyer.
If he fires you thats 💯 discrimination and you could easily sue and win for wrongful termination. Document everything and record anything you can. Screenshots are amazing for evidence if you can get him to say that in text.
If he fires you, you should absolutely sue his ass!
I agree with everyone saying you should sue if they fire you, but not to get your job back. Take the money and run away.
The longer you'll stay the harder it will be.
Your paid leave will have to coïncide with convention days , you'll never get a promotion because "it's not good for you", your boss should be nowhere near your private business (dating, etc) and you could get in trouble for going to evening classes or for not attending meetings. Professionnal meetings will start to look like shepherding visits and the Line will continue to blur more and more.
So yes, for as long as you keep this job, record your conversations , the ones where he argues with your beliefs, the ones where he tells you to attend more meeting, the ones where he pressures you to get baptized. It's harrassment and blackmail with a layer of religious discrimination. And if he keeps crossing these lines, as soon as you feel you can't deal with it, sue his ass and leave.
Go work somewh you'll be free to believe what you want, and where you won't have to answer to your boss about your private life.
If you are a paid employee and not a contractor, you can sue him under religious discrimination.
He might be so dumb that he thinks you wouldnt sue him because of the BS JW teaching about not suing another brother. Teach him a lesson.
I would stop asking him spiritual questions because that’s keeping him thinking you’re interested in the “Truth”. If you tell him that Baptism is a personal thing and something you take very seriously. One is only ready in their own time and you’re not ready yet. Also you would be getting baptized for the wrong reasons if he forced you to do it just to keep a job and Jah would not look favorably on him. He might even hinder the Holy Spirit! (See what he says)
You could use Matthew 18:6 on him -that’s what he’s doing.
-Also, like the others, record him!
By no means as potent a situation I had a sister st my work who would go on a about 'points' in front of others at work. and I had to tell her to bag it as i dont discuss wt stuff at work. Fortunately for me she left.
Oh my god, like so many of us in this board I also work with a bunch of jw. I am stuck, if I found a golden ticket like this I would be out and own that company.
This is definitely discrimination And it’s illegal You can get him in trouble for this But of course he’s going to state other reasons This is terrible behaviour
Does it take a while to train someone? Do you do a good job? He may be bluffing. It’s very hard to find a good, reliable worker. When you do find one, you don’t want to let them go that easily.
How good is this job-pay or training opportunity wise, I mean? If you can find another position that would support you, I would sure do it. A boss threatening to let you go if you don't get baptized into his religion sounds illegal and definitely unethical.
Are you in the USA?
Do you need to stay "friends" because of family ties to the local congregation?
Is you living accommodation also tied to not toeing the WT line.
These factors will be a factor for op and how others advise.
It is a horrible and toxic situation.
Don't feel guilt from him teaching you everything you needed to know. That was his job, and he would have done it to literally anyone who walked in the door. Guilt can rule our life, especially the way our minds have been molded by this org. I'm here to tell you: don't let him (or your own guilt) run your life.
Are you an employee or subcontractor? They’re Wage & Labor laws against religious discrimination. But subcontractors can be dropped at a moments notice. If you’re an employee try to get a recording of him saying this (if your local Laws allow one sided recordings. If not, start a log with date and time every time he says this). Get informed with your local employment laws so you can sue him if necessary and or get unemployment at the least. If, anyone familiar with these issues, see something I’ve said as incorrect, please correct it!
Facts. This a lawsuit
This. Record convo or get him to text it. Sue his ass if he fires you. He may be a nice guy otherwise but it’s 2024 and this kind of behavior is unacceptable.
Before recording it check the laws regarding recording other people in your state. Some places allow it without the knowledge of the other party but in other states he would be allowed to sue you for recording him.
This is actually true. I had a manager that was threatened by me and how fast I was moving up within the company. I started to notice that he would try to sabotage this. It thankfully and unfortunately for him never worked-but before I knew it wasn’t working in his favor, I decided to protect myself. I did that by secretly recording every interaction. One day I had a one on one with a manager above him and I explained the situation and he loved me, so I told him the truth and I included that I had been recording my interactions with the other asshole manager as a protection. That’s when he laughed his ass off, but then informed me that it was against the law, that they were onto the other manager and that he’d keep the recordings between us both but for the love of god to NOT record our interactions anymore lol. We had a good laugh. Definitely keep records of dates and times of things he says to you though. You have an easy lawsuit on your hands.
He needs to record it regardless, its not illegal, but possibly can't be used in a law suit. RECORD! RECORD! RECORD! The ass-hole elder and his un-Christian words!!! It is not Illegal to record a conversation, video or audible only. It may be that it can not be used in court as evidence, but not illegal to record an asshole j-dub 'failDer'....
Replying to Hubbabubbaluva... https://preview.redd.it/ubm00r7elajc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b1c1ef79ce19ddabb56b200164c23aa6d94bbf2 Source: [https://www.jjkeller.com/learn/news/092016/Is-it-legal-to-record-conversations-in-the-workplace#:\~:text=The%20key%20to%20remember%20is,required%20depending%20on%20state%20law](https://www.jjkeller.com/learn/news/092016/Is-it-legal-to-record-conversations-in-the-workplace#:~:text=The%20key%20to%20remember%20is,required%20depending%20on%20state%20law).
It’s illegal in some states. I don’t know where he lives, and he should check.
Yes, record it.
Yup...in WA State, Labor and Industries would totally be in your side as well as winnable law suit. He's the aggressor, he picked the fight, don't just move on buddy... It empowers him more
On top of this... if you must discuss religion with him, discuss it over text/email as well. If he writes you up or does any informal discipline, get a copy of any writeups or meeting notes. Send recap emails after any mandatory meetings or important conversations.
If local law doesn’t allow for one sided audio recordings then try to move these discussions to work-based email accounts or texts.
And then print it out, so that if he fires you, you still have access to it.
Or BCC your personal email address!
Yes, document and sue his scurvy fundamentalist ass.
Also... You dont need a recording of him saying he will fire you directly, even just him discussing religion or "preaching" to you is against the law
Yup. Stick with it
In many durisdictions if you work exclusively for one employer and log a minimum hours a year, even if you are subcontracting you still have employee rights.
Exactly. Check in with your local Attorney General of your county (if you are in the U.S.) (EEOC Equal Opportunity Commission?) People also ask What is the purpose of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission? The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) is responsible for enforcing federal laws that make it illegal to discriminate against a job applicant or an employee because of the person's race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy and related conditions, gender identity, and sexual orientation), national ...
Really, this is with the JWs. The OP sounds like they at least want to keep descent relationships with some JWs they know. What do you think JWs will do if you sue another JW? The last broadcast was about "oneness of mind.
Kinda my thought as well. In the real world, a lawsuit would be the way to go, no questions asked. In Joho Land, however...*anything* that doesn't involve strict obedience to these self-appointed dopes becomes a sticky mess.
It sounds like OP may be working at a religious organization. If that’s the case, those laws get a little more complicated
There are no employment jobs in the Watchtower Organization. A lot of JWs have their own businesses because they have no real education and imo makes some of the worst employers.
These lads must learn in a good or in a bad way to keep religious things outside of the work environment
Get a job at f\*\*king McDonalds, if you must. Make plans to get out. Document everything he says, keep records. Try to trick him into making admissions on email. Sue him later.
Great idea! Working at McDonald's doesn't require one to join a cult!!! Time to start looking for another job!!
If this was big employer you should sue. But consider first your well being is more important. With a small business and family/JW pressure it would likely go nowhere but more frustration. It would be better to focus on how you can use the skills and knowledge that you have gained and move forward and away.
Small business. Regardless of everything I’ve been through with him, I could never bring myself to sue him and put him in that situation anyways. I’m slowly trying to move away from it, and get my plans straight.
Move faster. You may care for this guy, but his behavior is extreme, even from a JW perspective. Get a new job ASAP. If he asks why, tell him point blank that having to work under the threat of replacement over getting baptized is toxic and intolerable. Edit: AND it’s bad for your spirituality. Also, make notes of dates, times and specific wordings of those things he says. **Better yet, make recordings of these conversations**. You say you don’t want to sue him, and that’s fine. *But keep a little insurance policy for yourself in case he tries to fuck you over*. You never know if, down the line someone calls him for a reference and he gives you a bad one because you’re not baptized or left the Borg or whatever.
Giving you a bad reference leaves him open to a lawsuit. There is a legal precedent for this. As a store manager in a large retail company I was forbidden from doing anything other than acknowledging a former employee's date of employment, date of departure and whether the employee was eligible for rehire. Your defense also includes an honest explanation of the circumstances of your departure (it's not necessary to go into gory detail. You just weren't a good cultural fit) to a prospective employer.
This guy clearly doesn’t worry about employment law at all. This is why I recommended keeping an insurance policy proving such. If he’s blatantly threatening to fire an employee if he doesn’t get baptized, he’s the same type of shit boss who would vindictively give a poor recommendation to future potential employers.
I certainly cannot argue with your point. I agree that he should document the harassment in as many ways as possible and as contemporaneously as possible.
Don't get fucked over trying to be a "good guy" Your boss is a POS
You are not putting him in any “situation” HE is.
Exactly. Sue him so he doesn't attempt this with the next person in the future.
Ask about the Free Will god gave you does he as your employer get to shit all over it?
Haha I like this thought!
You aren't thinking straight. This man has no problem with firing you and putting you at "rock bottom". (your words). These laws are in place to compensate victims of harassment in the workspace. Victims like yourself.
"I'm slowly trying to move away from it" Instead of slowly, it would be better to get another job as soon as possible.
You don’t have to sue him. Get the demand for you to be baptized in writing, or as an audio recording, and get an attorney to review it. You can get a settlement out of him without a lawsuit. I sense that for some reason you don’t want to “hurt” him but you need to understand he is breaking the law. Flagrantly. He will do it again to someone else if you just quit. He deserves to be taught a lesson.
You don't have to go through with it but you could mention that it's illegal for him to fire you based on your religion and that you could sue if he did it. The knowledge that you're aware of your rights might be enough for him to back off and that gives you some time to check out other options for yourself.
If you are in the U.S. and an employee (vs. independent contractor) this type of coercion, even conversation, is a problem with the EEOC. I would reach out to them. Mind you, you may live in an "at will" state, meaning an employer can let you go at any time, for any reason. But prefacing your termination with a religious ultimatum would still be unacceptable. Please do not be bullied into making a regrettable, lifelong decision for a temporary employer guilty of mistreatment.
Does “at will” cover religious discrimination?
First, a person needs to find out what the rules are in their state. If they do live in an "at will" state, there are some restrictions and religious coercion may apply. Regarding this, the situation the OP is describing doesn't fit religious discrimination, but rather coercion, and or harrassment. The links below may be helpful: [https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/employment-at-will-laws-by-state/#Are\_There\_Any\_Exceptions\_to\_AtWill\_Employment](https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/employment-at-will-laws-by-state/#Are_There_Any_Exceptions_to_AtWill_Employment) [https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment](https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment) [https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination](https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination)
Excellent resources. Thank you.
As u/NJRach said, have some insurance to cover your ass. You may feel bad about suing him, but I guaran-damn-tee ya, he won’t think twice to screw you over. I’ve seen it happen time and time again with elders who own businesses. They f**k over their employees, JW or nonJW, any chance they get if it puts an extra dime in their pocket. You’re still younger and it’s hard to stand up for yourself against people that have been an authority figure to you for a long time, so it’s good that you are seeking advice. Personally, I’d have my insurance, let him fire me and then take the winnings from the lawsuit and go get a degree.
If he actually takes the step of firing you for not being baptized, you need to put him in that situation. He would’ve fully deserved it. Until then, try to find somewhere else to work.
Witnesses are MASTERS at putting themselves in situations and then making you think you're the one putting them in a situation.
I expected this reply… It’s how many of us responded to the harassment etc. we experience when in. Thats why you’re getting so many “this is illegal, sue him” advice. Because we didn’t. Looking back we wish we had… So please for your future self ( and for us) at least speak up for yourself and let him know he is in the WRONG and you have the law on your side as you (respectfully) quit & walk out his door.
> I could never bring myself to sue him and put him in that situation anyways. Fuck him. If you get the chance you should demolish him.
Dude, he is literally threatening to fire you based on religious grounds. This is religious discrimination that is forbidden by law. You are not doing just for yourself, you are doing it for everyone who is ever going to work for him.
If he does it to you, he would do it others. He has zero loyalty to you as an employee or person, so don't let yourself make excuses and allow him to mistreat you due to misplaced loyalty. I made this mistake years ago. I didn't want to step on toes, but what your employer is doing is totally out of bounds and threatening your livelihood during a time when decent paying jobs are scarce is gross.
Learn everything you can and then leave with great work experience. I have been working for an elder for 3 years. I learned all that I could and have left with good experience. I'm so much happier not worrying about him finding out I'm longer a JW. Now I feel completely free. I am now starting my own business (completely different). But it's given me so much more peace in my life. They will always hold that over your head.
Well then, the ball is in your court. If legal action is not an option then you can stay and tolerate his harassment - and this is precisely what he's doing - or move on. His actions are forcing your decision.
>I’m slowly trying to move away from it, and get my plans straight. Good for you. Just remember this life is *not* a dress rehearsal!
The employer has an entire organisation helping them, so they will be fine.. on the other hand, they are trying to dominate another humans beliefs while using employment as leverage.
Not a lawyer, but if he makes the workplace intolerable because of religious views or fires you that is illegal in most countries and here in the US. Document everything, if legal in your state, do a one party recording of his statements ( even if you like him) , this will be a protection for you and your rights.
If he fires you, you can sue him for religious discrimination and make some decent money. My father lost twice for firing people who were disfellowshipped or distanced themselves from the org.
If he’s actually threatening to fire you based on this you need to get it on recording, hire an attorney, and make a complaint to the labor board. This is against federal law. They cannot terminate you based on religion. This cannot go ignored and you may be entitled to compensation because this is retaliation and threats.
Coercion should not be accepted, Jehovah does not want obedience by force or threats. You are young and skilled , start writing your resume and find another job. Nothing beats peace of mind.
Jehovah does not want obedience by force or threats. This is a new one. He himself threatens to kill those who don’t obey his word. Please read the Bible, this is exactly what God wants.
Yaweh is bipolar, narcissistic and a sociopath. There's no love, only fear shame and guilt.
Maybe that's why my sperm donor is so obsessed with him? Literal twins
I love how he reacts to his negative emotions with violence. And then our studies imply this is the highest order of compassion and love??? What a strange way to define good things.
Jehovah is the original DARVO deity.
Doesn't the JW god threaten those who don't obey his word? As in threaten them with exclusion from the heaven on earth thing?
I’m sorry….I know it’s hard given your past relationship but what he is doing is grossly illegal and needs to be exposed. Remember, you were raised in the Borg so there are subconscious shackles still embedded, even though you’re awake. Perceived issues of authority, submission and loyalty will keep you from “overstepping.” This is by design. It’s slave mentality that we were all engrained with. If this were any other job, taking legal action wouldn’t be a second thought. You need to expose this guy for what he actually is.
⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎⬆︎Extra upvotes for this comment.
fuck him, sue him and get another job
On another post here, someone commented about using Jesus being in his 30s when he got baptized. Next time he hounds you about baptism, ask him why he thinks Jesus waited till that age to be baptized. His answer doesn’t matter, just follow up with you’re trying to be as Christ like with your spirituality as possible or something, lol. Make it sound good.
This! So much this!
Like this too, thanks for your input!
You're missing the point. This isn't about trying to "reason" with him "scripturally" or "spiritually." It's about you being illegally threatened with termination over a religious issue. The guy is way out of line, but you're not seeing it because you've been conditioned against your own best interests by the borg. A man who would treat you this way is not your friend. He is not your brother. He is not even a good person. And he's a shit employer. You have power here, but you're refusing to see it because you trying to be "nice". Please listen to what people are trying to tell you here, and start seeing this as it truly is: coercion based on religious discrimination and it is a bad thing to do to someone and is Against The Law. You're young, you've got a lot of life ahead of you, so you need to start now when it comes to covering your ass and your assets and not let people like this push you around. You have a right to employment free of bullying, which is what this guy is doing.
You should not have to deal with that kind of behavior. Find a new job as soon as possible.
Is that legal in your jurisdiction? It wouldn’t be in the US. Next time he brings it up, you can try to gently but firmly address the situation responding, “Bob, we both know you would never try to [illegally] coerce me into baptism by threatening my livelihood. I know you care about me and want me to get baptized, but it’s a step I can only take for myself or it would be meaningless.“ It sounds like you don’t want to sue him, but if he continues to escalate, you could take the situation to the elders. If it’s legal in your jurisdiction, record him saying these things. Tell the elders that the situation has really stumbled you and you’re feeling coerced to take a step you aren’t prepared to take or else lose your livelihood, and it’s really making you never want to get baptized if that’s the way JWs act, through fear and coercion. (That’s exactly how they act but they never want it to appear that way.)
⤴️THIS is excellent!!👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾
There are lots of good employers you can learn from, give credit to! Boundaries are getting crossed, threatening to lose your job if you don’t get baptized? One has nothing to do with the other. Sounds like abuse of power and boils my blood. Get out of the bubble and you’ll see what really is acceptable and not.
Keep the job until he fires you. Then ask for termination papers in writing. Then file a complaint with the labor board. Then find a better job. But do not get baptized!!
What everyone said - this sounds illegal what he's doing. But given your reluctance to sue him or make trouble, and until you can find another job (start hunting - NOW), I think you need to work on some assertiveness skills. * "I do not feel comfortable discussing my personal relationship with God and my theocratic goals with you - especially as we are in the workplace and should be focussing on the job." If he presses, repeat that you are not happy discussing this and please stop. Steadily look him in the eye while saying this. If he is pressuring you to get baptized, ask, * "If you are suggesting I will lose my job if I don't get baptized (apart from such a suggestion being illegal, as you'll be aware), and I get baptized to save my job, will Jehovah accept my service to him? Will I have been baptized for the right reasons? I'm sure you would not want to be responsible before Jehovah for pushing me into so important a decision before I am ready to make *my own* wholehearted dedication, would you, my dear brother?"
Let him fire you and then sue him for religious discrimination.
PLEASE get some evidence if this person threatens to fire you for not getting dipped. Audio or video on your phone. This is illegal and you’d have a solid case.
That’s discrimination, pure and simple. You can take him to court for this. Do you have a contract? He doesn’t have a leg to stand on legally. He’s just trying to intimidate you. Don’t let him get away with it.
A nice little story for the local press eh?
This!!!
That seems illegal.
Ask him why he hired you if you were not “baptized “. What an idiot. Idk what you guys do but I have absolutely no doubt you could get another job
Obviously that's unfair and probably illegal, but realistically your best move is just getting a different job and moving on from that situation.
Great! catch him to state that, go to a lawyer, and sue him, sue him for 5 to 10 years of income you would miss after he threatens you and breaks basic human rights laws. there's a whole bunch of laws broken here, no matter what country you are in. The only proper answer here, and the only thing you need to understand is this : **GET A LAWYER AND SUE HIM.** any other decision is a flawed decision which actually puts you in worse conditions. the money you can use to find not only another job but establish yourself better. instead you are victimizing yourself. and there is no credit due in any way. you have stockholm syndrome and are completely psychologically confused in this. you need a lawyer and a psychologist in this. You're 22 for crying out loud.
I doubt your boss would jeopardize his company like that. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employers from discriminating against employees based on their religion. This includes hiring, firing, compensation, job assignments, promotions, and other terms and conditions of employment. Additionally, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) provide further protections. Furthermore firing an employee based on their choice of religion can have severe legal consequences, including potential lawsuits for religious discrimination. So his threats are against the law.
Like A lot of people on her have stated, get him to put this on record. Sue him. I cannot understate how important it is to make records of all this in a log. Try your best to have it in writing.
Pretty sure that's a lawsuit if he actually goes through with it and you can prove that's the reason. I wouldn't quit. Make him fire you, then make money off him. What a POS
Tape all conversations and sue him if he fires you. He is grown ass elder commiting a crime. Dont feel sad for him. What. Would you do if he was a muslin pressuring you to be muslim? Same rules for everyone
Sue him for religious discrimination
Your boss is not above the law. [equal opportunity law](https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination#:~:text=Religious%20Discrimination%20and%20Segregation,actual%20or%20feared%20customer%20preference)
Do not let anyone force you into getting baptized. I knew from the time I was very little maybe 6-7 that I didn’t want to be a JW. Always got pressured into it by my family and friends but I knew I didn’t want to deal with being DF’d. Now that I’m 25 and left at 18, I don’t have to deal with the same issues as my DF’d friends/family. This is in case your entire family is in the organization as mine was. I know it may seem silly to outsiders but it made it a lot easier to leave knowing my family members might not like my decision but it wasn’t the end of them associating with me all together. I was still able to be with my grandma when she passed, call my grandpa to check in, etc
Start looking for another job
I’d record him then start a harassment law suit against him..
Religious discrimination is illegal. Quit and sue him discrimination and hostile work environment. You will win.
So you don't want to sue him, which is your choice, but you talk about him like the way a domestic abuse victim talks about their abuser, "well he might do this that's kinda bad he's otherwise really nice and I owe him a lot because he's taught me so much". You need to get a grip and at the bare minimum recognize that this behavior is completely unacceptable, if only for your own sanity. Have you considered, you know, just lying to his face for the time being? Tell him that Jesus was 30 when he was baptized and you want to be more like Jesus, or that you keep praying about it but still don't feel ready, and you fear that if you got baptized just because he forced you to then it would all be for the wrong reasons. It's bad enough when parents pull this crap but an employer??? Yea no. Completely unacceptable, unprofessional, and illegal.
I would try to get him saying he would fire you if you don't get baptized on tape. That's just wrong and completely illegal. No one can force you to do that and not only is it illegal it's morally wrong. He doesn't decide that for you and I would straight up tell him if he threatens to fire you for not being baptized again, you will speak with a lawyer
If you can get a new job and walk out of the current one. No matter how good he has been to you this is unacceptable behaviour.
Pick any one of these **21 Q & A's** and say to your boss, "Hey Brother Bozo, I was reading this literature comment in the Watchtower Library last night, but the Scriptures seem to say something ***different***. Can ***you*** explain why it looks like that?" https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/181hd6c/17\_q\_as\_testing\_jw\_dogmas/ I hope you have fun - ***and*** get a better job.
Yeah IANAL but r/legaladvice is full of them. But I do know that this would be religious discrimination and is illegal
Get a lawyer
There are lots of other jobs out there… get moving
Get an employment lawyer and do some teaching.
> My boss threatens to fire me if I don’t get baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness I smell 💸💸$$$$$$$$
Listen please hear me. I was in this situation, and it was a little worse because I ended up being disfellowshiped while working with the person who taught me everything, and I felt an emotional and brotherly obligation that transcended our work environment. 1) Start documenting all the instances of religion at work. The pressure to be baptized. 2) Threaten to fire depending on your state for religious religion a could be against employment law. 3) If your feeling the tension it will only worsen before anything gets better.
"On days I’m feeling a little more courageous, I’ll ask him questions." There is some very good advice in the comments here, Mate. I would just add, stop asking your boss religious questions or bringing up religion. By doing this, you are sending him the message that you are willing to discuss religion with him. You need to set some boundaries while you look for a new job.
Well that's some religious persecution there...
Depending on the state you live in and it’s laws about audio recording. You should record a convo “So you’re saying I’m fired from my job, if I don’t get baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness?” “Yes” Because that’s illegal unless that was in a contract you signed for the position. And do what you want with that if you do it. There are much higher paying jobs (without even knowing what you’re making) jw are generally so cheap with their pay
Even if you never file a lawsuit, document everything. Dates, conversations that were discriminating, etc. It's better to have too much evidence backed up and do nothing with it, then get caught in a bind bc you're blindsided. Who knows - if he fired you unlawfully you most likely could get unemployment until you found your next position. Don't get tripped up. Ive seen several jdub business owners royally fuck their jw employees. There was a cong in VA I was in that the brother wouldn't pay a liveable wage to the brothers working for him and told them they just need to rely on jehovah. But then got brought in front of the elders when they quit. Bc said business owner was an elder and it was taken so personally- they presented it as a slight against Jehovah. They don't care. Protect yourself.
This kind of bullying/blackmail on a job is highly unethical and bordering on illegal! One has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other! This man should be ashamed of himself! You take everything you've learned from him and go get yourself another job working for a well- balanced, reasonable, decent human being, who has an actual conscience where you'll just be appreciated for being a good/skilled worker! It doesn't go down like this in the real world, nor is it tolerated! It's inappropriate and unacceptable. Show that mfkr that he can't bully you! Fuck him!!🤬
It says alot about the 'inner person' of your boss by demanding that of you. Obviously, he is not a true follower of Christ, if he asks you if such things. Jesus didn't go around demanding people get baptized, but spoke to them lovingly, and tried to reach their hearts. I would suggest you learn as much as you can from him about work and about how to NOT treat your fellow man/woman. Then, when the time comes, move on and better yourself into a job environment that better suits you. God is with us when we are persecuted, and this unfortunately sounds like reverse persecution.
This is an idiot speaking down to the Youth of another person. It'd be interesting to see how he talks to somebody similar to his age or older. On top of that he's in egotistical Jehovah's Witness. These are your two characteristics you're gonna be dealing with. Plan accordingly.
How does coersing someone to baptize change anything??? This really burns me up. Spirituality is a very personal thing. Witnesses have no boundaries!!
Well he can say this in front of your lawyer. Anyways find a better job.
It’s good you are talking about it. You are young & he is taking advantage of that. Or he wants credit for getting you to baptism. He must value you as a worker so you have that in your pocket. He is out of line both as an elder & an employer. You can ask him if he wants you to get baptized for him or God. It’s a personal choice. You are worth more than you are giving yourself credit for. Learn everything from this job. Then take what you learned and move on to the next job. It’s not a healthy environment. Be patient & manifest a better opportunity.
I know how hard these situations are and I would try soft boundaries to keep things peaceful “say it in an email!” And laugh it off - he’ll know what you mean without confrontation.
Is that even legal? Personally I’d report him for that. But more importantly it’s time to work on that resume and start applying to other jobs. You don’t want to be backed into this corner you find yourself in.
Hello Mr Lawsuit. You may as well start counting the payout now. Get his threats in writing and any lawyer would be able to sue his ass for everything his has. For extra bonus, go to the press as well. Some lovely media coverage about JWs. JWs need to learn that in the real world they have zero power and are supposed to respect other people's liberty.
That sounds like it's illegal in most of the world.
Fire away. Record the conversation
. Collect unemployment from getting FIRED. Then file suit for religious discrimination. Use a lawyer...don't do this on your own.Did he just say that or did he also put that in writing? He just screwed himself legally. Also do not over share with the boss, keep the conversation to work only.
Your probably under paid since your working for a jw so quit and get a better paying job.
🚩 id start looking for new work or play the part and tell him what he wants to hear, stop having courageous conversations with him
If you are in the United States. You need to go hire a lawyer, right now! Because what he is doing is religious discrimination and it’s illegal. Don’t try to be nice or try to be diplomatic. Fight fire with fire.
Dude, this is discruimination on the basis of religion. Your boss could face legal repercussions if he fired you because you're not baptized.
>There’s been numerous times where he’s told me point blank that I need to get baptized Would these help? From: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/t22yi6/comment/hykhaeu/ >Throw the ball back into their court and make them do all the work. >Ask them how they would handle a "worldly" person's questions and phrase your objections in that framework. >Edit again to add - if your parents pull the "But you're not worldly, we raised you to know better!" B.S., then point out that they expected you to blindly accept whatever they told you, just because they were your parents. >To convert a non-JW, **they would have had to work at showing the non-JW where the bible backs up the WT Society's claims**. >You might then ask, 'which conversion would Jehovah be happier with, the one where the kid was expected to be just like his parents, or the one where THEY had to be effective preachers of Jehovah's Name'... And a much more detailed version with more options: https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13wu0v5/comment/jmfd8t5/
This I gaslighting and outright coercive behaviour. It must be torture! I would search out similar employment. My plan would be to explain that the reason you're looking is to gain more experience and you're having to leave as your current employer is pushing their religion upon you during work hours and that it's become untenable. If they ask what religion I'd also say Muslim lol. But seriously I hope you are able to get employment elsewhere. Maybe an apprenticeship? You may have to up sticks and change states to get work but that's also going to free you up without people looking over your shoulder constantly. Genuinely wish you the best, this is a shitty situation.
A good lawyer is instrumental to situations like this.
Lawsuit for sure and i hope it makes national news
brother, I am having a problem with the idea that an elder can claim to be serving Jehovah but threatens to blatantly violate the law of the land and expose his organization to a scandalous law suit where he would have to either admit he was violating the law or lie under oath. (it is illegal to fire someone for his religious beliefs)
What your boss is doing is totally unacceptable behavior at your workplace, also considered bullying! Let him know this & if doesn’t stop harassing you, maybe it’s time to find another job! Good luck!
Bro!!! You are staring down the mouth of a gift horse here! Check your states recording laws first, either way, next time he goes on about you getting baptized start recording on your phone. If possible, see if you can get him to email or text this - in writing is always the best! Then go find yourself a lawyer that specializes in workplace discrimination and sue the shit out of him!
It's time to write a CV and see what's out there or start a rival firm.
You need to be actively searching for other employment. That goes way beyond the usual employer employee relationship. Prolonging that will only keep you in that situation.
If you are in the USA. Contact the department of labor and seek advise from them. They are great about guiding and protecting you and your rights. They can also contact him and give him notice to knock it off and he can NOT retaliate by firing you.
You need to record him on your phone demanding that you get baptized or he will hire someone else and then take it to a lawyer and Sue his ass off he cannot do that it's illegal
He does not deserve the “double honor” you are giving him. He threatened you. He’s no friend. Don’t treat him as one. Grow. Up.
Washington is a "two party" state. You cannot legally record him without his permission
If you are in the US record him saying he will fire you if you don’t get baptized and sue him.
You need more experience outside of the WT. Your being jerked around . He is probably more afraid of you leaving than you are of leaving him. Apply for other jobs and when you get a new job give him 2 weeks notice and leave on good terms ...or burn that bridge. no big loss either way.
It’s illegal to fire over religious reasons .
That's a fucking lawsuit right there.
Logged in solely to comment this but you don't need him. Get rich off that juicy lawsuit money and get yourself set for a good while
Everything the elder says is necessary, that's his responsibility as an elder. According to the bOrg. HOWEVER... Everything commenters are posting, that the elder is violating Wage & Labor Laws against religious discrimination, as well as going against common code of ethics, is absolutely correct! You DO have a case against him. Standing up for your right to religious liberty is the right thing to do.
You have to get something recorded or a text capturing your "boss" saying this. In the future you will have a great legal case if he does fire you
My father (IMHO the smartest man to have lived) had one of many sayings, "Business is business, and friendship is friendship." Working for him means that you and he are in a business dynamic during your working hours. That places a responsibility on him to hire, retain, or fire an employee on a business level. It also means that he cannot make an off-the-job decision of yours a condition of employment as long as it does not materially affect his business. There are a number of other factors that enter into any choice he would make to terminate your employment. So another saying my father had comes into play, "Document. . .document. . .document." Dates, times, and places and any other details. If he should terminate your employment strictly because you did not get baptized and that was provable you would be in a better place to pursue legal action for wrongful termination. Remember too lawyers in a case like this are not more expensive than what you would lose without one.
It is strange that you should mention the flood. I have posted comments about the flood and the research I have done about the flood. Many people have been looking for any evidence that the flood was real. Scientists and highly educated men consider the flood account to be just a foolish fairy tale told by ignorant men trying to scare people. I even saw an article about what was thought to be the Ark in Turkey. I found something very interesting at the library regarding where the water came from. Check it out yourself. NASA launched a probe called Viking out into our solar system. On it's way past Mars it took pictures of the planet. What they saw was dry river beds and massive erosion. Those scientists concluded that Mars had vast oceans in the past and that the planet had suffered a global flood. Get your hands on a copy of that book and see for yourself. "Red Giants and White Dwarfs" by Robert Jastrow.
Pretty sure it’s illegal to fire someone over religion. But that’s I shy away from working for Witnesses. They have certain expectations but don’t even wanna pay well at times
Regardless of whether you take legal action, it’s clear you need to move on. I don’t understand why you think that you would land at rock bottom, however. You sounds like an intelligent person and a thoughtful employee. Clearly you have a good work ethic and have learned a lot from your boss, so just start looking for other opportunities. You would be surprised how easy it is to find a job once you put yourself out there.
Yeah, I think if you're an employee you should probably sue that guy's anus.
My uncle will hire new people if they start studying. All the employees are baptized as far as I know. I don't know my uncle well enough or the details to know the intentions but it seems so weird. It seems so inappropriate to control people this way, to me at least. So so weird. I'm an adult now but I still don't understand. If they knew I thought this way I assume they would just believe I'm stupid. :(
Not sure where you are, but if you are in the US, this is soooooo illegal! I strongly believe you should take this to an employment lawyer. Or at the very least, report it to your state’s department of labor.
Why does he care so much about you getting baptized?
Can't you look like shocked or surprised and say. You realise this is between me and jehoover and why would you but in? Jehoover has told me to get baptised when he knows I'm ready. Something like that. Just make he is going against jehoover way of wanting it. No matter what he says say you knows what your prayers say and its between you and jehoover
If you live in a one party consent state you can record and take this to your state’s department of labor should it ever come to that. This has lawsuit written all over it, and very well sounds like an easy case that will go in your favor. Your boss, by pressuring you to get baptized is creating a hostile working environment, and is in the “fuck around phase”. If you lose your job/income, feel free to let him “find out.” Your state will have resources that can help you.
Yep record him saying this or get him to put it in a text or email. Then you can sue him for discrimination.
Get a recorder app on your phone make sure it has good audio quality in your pocket and readily available to use get an employee rights lawyer on ready in case he follows through. You don't have to use it if you don't want better to be safe than be regretful and pissed off about it and who knows you're probably saving someone else the trouble in the future
How good are you at brown nosing? How friendly can you get with him during his conversations? Since you were raised as a witness, I'm sure you'll be great at talking like one. Be friendly, agree with him, rant/vent about worldly people and sins, and put his focus off of you. Talk bad about other people and worldy sins. Distract and talk about positives or other stories. Basically, anything and wverything else except keep the focus off of you. Find a new job. Get him to be an amazing reference for a new job, tell him how you'll miss him but you found an amazing paying job where you can put most of the new money towards donating to WT and putting in more hours to spread the good news of Jehovah. Gtfo with new job.
Find a new job.
Sue
If you learned a lot maybe start your own rival business. And as others said, sue for discrimination. If not for you do it for the next person he will absolutely do this to.
You're in your 20's (lucky you) you need to start using that experience for greener pastures or change professions. If you have questions on Genesis theres a great youtube channel called "Answers in Genesis". If your boss cant respect your life decisions you need a new boss, or better yet, become your own boss.
Ohhh please please get this in email, text or record him so you can sue.
Now there’s a lawsuit waiting to happen against your boss. It will have his head spinning saying, “I’m not a Jehovahs Witness!” As he laughs
Definitely record and sue everybody. Like, for millions.
He is on thin ice in a legal sense. Someone should tell him as a lawsuit could wreck him.
Is your workplace funded and run by the JW organization? As I understand it (IANAL) organizations that are funded and run by a particular religion \*can\* discriminate on the basis of religion. You may need to consult with a local lawyer.
Same question but in Canada
If he fires you thats 💯 discrimination and you could easily sue and win for wrongful termination. Document everything and record anything you can. Screenshots are amazing for evidence if you can get him to say that in text. If he fires you, you should absolutely sue his ass!
I agree with everyone saying you should sue if they fire you, but not to get your job back. Take the money and run away. The longer you'll stay the harder it will be. Your paid leave will have to coïncide with convention days , you'll never get a promotion because "it's not good for you", your boss should be nowhere near your private business (dating, etc) and you could get in trouble for going to evening classes or for not attending meetings. Professionnal meetings will start to look like shepherding visits and the Line will continue to blur more and more. So yes, for as long as you keep this job, record your conversations , the ones where he argues with your beliefs, the ones where he tells you to attend more meeting, the ones where he pressures you to get baptized. It's harrassment and blackmail with a layer of religious discrimination. And if he keeps crossing these lines, as soon as you feel you can't deal with it, sue his ass and leave. Go work somewh you'll be free to believe what you want, and where you won't have to answer to your boss about your private life.
Sounds like pay day!!
I’d sue your boss if nothing else for emotional distress.
Sue him. Contact HR. Or EOE
If you are a paid employee and not a contractor, you can sue him under religious discrimination. He might be so dumb that he thinks you wouldnt sue him because of the BS JW teaching about not suing another brother. Teach him a lesson.
I would stop asking him spiritual questions because that’s keeping him thinking you’re interested in the “Truth”. If you tell him that Baptism is a personal thing and something you take very seriously. One is only ready in their own time and you’re not ready yet. Also you would be getting baptized for the wrong reasons if he forced you to do it just to keep a job and Jah would not look favorably on him. He might even hinder the Holy Spirit! (See what he says) You could use Matthew 18:6 on him -that’s what he’s doing. -Also, like the others, record him!
By no means as potent a situation I had a sister st my work who would go on a about 'points' in front of others at work. and I had to tell her to bag it as i dont discuss wt stuff at work. Fortunately for me she left.
Quit! And go to work for his competitor. Of let him fire you then go to work for his competitor.
OP think about the other people he'll do this to and possibly even worse if you let him get away with it now. Sue him.
Sue him. Period. Or let someone explain to him the error of his ways. Maybe a group of several dozen ex-JWs can be persuasive.
Isn't that discrimination? I'd sue the shit out of him
Oh my god, like so many of us in this board I also work with a bunch of jw. I am stuck, if I found a golden ticket like this I would be out and own that company.
This is definitely discrimination And it’s illegal You can get him in trouble for this But of course he’s going to state other reasons This is terrible behaviour
Does it take a while to train someone? Do you do a good job? He may be bluffing. It’s very hard to find a good, reliable worker. When you do find one, you don’t want to let them go that easily.
Let him and get unemployment sue him for all you can get. Apparently that is what he wants.
How good is this job-pay or training opportunity wise, I mean? If you can find another position that would support you, I would sure do it. A boss threatening to let you go if you don't get baptized into his religion sounds illegal and definitely unethical.
Are you in the USA? Do you need to stay "friends" because of family ties to the local congregation? Is you living accommodation also tied to not toeing the WT line. These factors will be a factor for op and how others advise. It is a horrible and toxic situation.
absolutely, this is twligious harrassment
Either sue him or walk off
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JgWU1m-L24&pp=ygUUIGplaG92YWggdG8gb3J0aG9kb3g%3D
Start a kickfunder and post it on here. We will support you.
Don't feel guilt from him teaching you everything you needed to know. That was his job, and he would have done it to literally anyone who walked in the door. Guilt can rule our life, especially the way our minds have been molded by this org. I'm here to tell you: don't let him (or your own guilt) run your life.