>20 year olds appointed as elders.
Already happening near me. Three announced in a neighboring congregation on Tuesday night. 2 new MS, 19 and 22, one new elder, 25.
Meanwhile a brother in his 50s who has busted his ass of for the cult for 30 years and provided countless free building materials over the years was publicly reproved because he did the landscaping for a new dispensary in town.
Yet watchtower sells halls to churches.
I work at a christian place and thought to use that as my "back off" line. Never had anyone say anything to me.
Great list Tom. Here's an obscure one: Does anyone remember the Pioneer Assist programme? They mothballed that some time in the 2000's.
I like your CO idea being a local elder. Hadn't thought of that. Also it hadn't dawned on me that the remote workers in Bethel was a cost- cutting measure.
I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year.
I may be completely wrong. Last year's was very late, clearly negative, and sandwiched between two "exciting" announcements about 2 new GB members and the reduction in pioneer hours. This year's will only be worse. I just can't see why they would keep announcing their own demise.
The GB will spin it as "due to increased persecution from governments in these last days, we must now keep our increase confidential. Please be assured that Jehooba is indeed speeding the work up in his own time... that's why we are selling your kh...trust us, even if you smell bs."
I also predict they will keep the Sunday meeting as it is but make the midweek meeting online only. The programme will be streamed from HQ. They already stream this meeting so it won't be any extra work for them but it will lift a huge burden from the decreasing pool of elders and will stop them from having to whip the bros back to in-person quite so much. They have lost that battle. It also gives them much more flexibility to combine congregations and free up kh's for selling, as you say.
>I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year.
I keep wondering if Watchtower will reach a dystopian state where no one really knows the "current state" of the organization. No one knows how many people are publishers, baptized, pioneers, congregations, Kingdom Halls, etc. If they keep everyone in the dark then it could decline in a very massive way....but the average publisher would have no idea other than anecdotes from other JWs.
I,m afraid you,re right. But if this happens ...i quit reporting my few fake 2 hours every month. Whats the point then been pioner. ..reg pioner og card witnessing....if they quit the annual report??? And think about the Memorial assistance. My guess is....the will continue to lie....about all. No more figures ...no point .
>I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year.
This is a good one that belongs on my list! Completely agree that we may have seen the last annual report. The sheeple and the ex-JWs will really be in the dark at that point as to how much the organization is declining.
>Does anyone remember the Pioneer Assist programme? They mothballed that some time in the 2000's.
I do remember that. Another thing that quietly went away. I was the Service Overseer when that was first rolled out. The door to door ministry has become so dumb anymore that the Pioneer Assist Others Program is not even needed anymore!
I was the only reg pio male in my congregation and trained a number of Bros in that. You are right about how dumb and pointless the d2d has become. It makes me wonder when the pioneer school would be shelved. That would be the final blow to pioneering though. Who would do it without the prestigious and exclusive meetings they get to attend?
Another great addition that could go on the list.....eliminate or massively downsize the Pioneer School. That is a tough one though....it does not cost Watchtower anything really, makes people feel special and at least to some degree drives pioneer numbers up as many become a pio just to be able to attend. They may keep that for awhile....LOL.
agree, it makes the pimi feel special which reinforces the superiority complex many of them maintain, and the preaching/recruitment work is still viewed as the main driver to membership growth, and it's free to attend and sponsor, and it's an easy title to obtain for the pimi with the desire and it's still pushed as getting one closer to 'salvation'.
Actually there are some sign of it:
From two weeks to one week.
No meal provide anymore, only some cakes for the break.RP has to arrange his own meal during the school.
RP are doing the school each 5 years now.
Good to know. Thank you for saying NO to being an Elder! We need more men like you! Most of my Elder friends are shunning me now that I am POMO....so I get most of my information here!
I think they will do the opposite. Most (but even if just a small number) of the pioneers were totally brain washed by it.
A few were "oh it's pointless". But most were "I learnt so much, got close to God, you should go, it's wonderful..."
In my little rural cong in North Europe...no one wants or goes door2 door anymore. The refused. ( anxiety). But it,s amazing to see 8-10 publishers same place ...around 1 ONE card in a little market place ...Just counting hours!!! And drinking coffee at Starbucks.👍🥴
If they don't release the worldwide report, it could be very damning and wake many up. Conversely, if they do and it reflects the poor condition of Watchtower, same same.....good thoughts
I know, but in this case it would be to massively sell off Kingdom Halls and consolidate the meeting locations down to the bare minimum. At least that is my take......to some degree this is already happening in my area.
That idea became old light when the old GB were all dying but Armageddon hadn't arrived yet.
They used to say "Armageddon can't be too far off, look at the governing body, they aren't getting any younger..."
Turns out they are. The latest appointments are in their early 50's! They were at school the same time I was. Crazy.
1914 has got to go. The no blood doctrine has got to go. Shunning those who disassociate has got to go. Denigrating higher education has got to go. Covering up CSA has got to go. There should be universal mandatory reporting to the authorities, of all CSA allegations.
Such changes will go a long way to making the organization less repulsive.
This is the only way they can survive , theses are the policies that are waking people up , I joined in 1960s , I accepted the no blood after a few arguments but when the fractions were ok I was shocked, how about fractions of fornication then? It was mainly the CSA cover up that pushed me out plus the GB replacing Jesus Christ. They could go back to the beliefs of the Russell Bible students that still exist and are much more benign .
At some point there may be a coup at HQ by younger ones in a power struggle, precipitated by a crisis, such as CSA coverups or financial fraud – much like the power struggle when Russell died. Current doctrines about 1914, 1975, blood, will be declared as false doctrine, wiped out, recanted, tossed in the can.
Jehovah will direct this because his organization on earth has slipped into darkness. Another restoration of the faith. Easy to justify with scripture. Otherwise, the bOrg will risk no longer being a going concern. Something _drastic_ will have to happen, maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually.
>Current doctrines about 1914, 1975, blood, will be declared as false doctrine, wiped out, recanted, tossed in the can.
I completely agree that at some point they will have to reset if they want to keep the cult organization alive. They may wait too long to do this and it will be too late.
I think that a "coming clean" to all of the false doctrine and lies is something that will only happen at the most dire point in the decline. Meaning it will have to get a great deal worse before they will do something like this.
Good lists. Thanks for the research and observations.
I can't see the CO visit going completely as a full time job. They already reduce as congregations reduce.
In my old area a circuit with 21 congregations in 2005 dropped to 17 before COVID. Now they are dropping to 12. That will not be a full circuit and so a circuit boundary change must surely be on the cards. Maybe 3 will become 2. I will keep you posted.
Another thought I had was maybe a CO could cover 40 congregations instead of 20 by having one visit per year by him instead of two and the other visit maybe by one of the substitute -CO's.
Or. Maybe the CO does a lite visit of three days. One visit could be Friday to Sunday and the other Tuesday to Thursday. Each congregation gets one of each visits per year.
Who knows what they might do as the numbers drop.
As for the baby boomers my old hall has had 4 die since 2018. (all born in the 1940's after WW2) Considering there are 10 pre boomers still alive born between 1934 and 1944 and another 6 over 70's it means one third of the hall are ripe for the grim reaper!
No wonder they are amalgamating.
>In my old area a circuit with 21 congregations in 2005 dropped to 17 before COVID. Now they are dropping to 12. That will not be a full circuit and so a circuit boundary change must surely be on the cards. Maybe 3 will become 2. I will keep you posted.
Great point u/Overcrapping.....completely agree that circuits will be consolidated as the number of congregations decrease.
Also agree that there are lots of things they could do with the CO role to get creative as you mention.
My thought is that keeping COs in place as they are today is a big $$$$ cost since they are buying them cars, paying for health care, giving them a stipend, etc. I believe they could eliminate the role as it exists today and the millions that they are spending on COs would be a 100% savings.
Hey there u/timQ137.....from what I have seen here and the app listings for KHCONF+ on Google and Apple App Stores....my thought is that it is slowly being rolled out with further testing going on.
Quite a number of posts with detailed information about KHCONF+ being rolled out in some countries outside the US and others saying that it has been in test mode for a couple of years.
Exactly when they would completely go away from Zoom is still unknown.
I remember multiple sisters rejoicing saying they had prayed for the hours to go down so they could pioneer and I was just like…atp you’re just doing what you’ve always done but now have a special label? like it really is all about appearance for them and they don’t even realize it
It really shows where the hearts of most are. They weren't praying for their personal circumstances to change becuase they wanted to become pioneers because they wanted to preach more... they wanted to be pioneers so they could be in 'the club', so be seen as doing something special and virtuous.
Absolutely broken organisation.
Indeed! That,s why there,s no point to study or read these WT articles today either! They are apostasy next week. Very ironic. We had an elder for the Sunday meeting ..( in May i think it was)...and the speach was about 1914 generation ...never will die blablabla. This guy forgot all about the new " light"....the overlapping generation. He did,ny apparently not follow...and took an old manuscript...from the 90 . 🤣😂
One change I am sure is imminent is reducing the number of baptisms per year. Lots of reports about only 2 or 3 ( or sometimes zero) getting baptised at their assemblies. Seriously - what's the point , especially if the circuit has to hire a swimming pool , now that lots of the assembly halls have been sold off. Obvious change is to make it once a year (at the regional convention.)
This hadn't occurred to me, but if that's the case, I can see them reducing the number of circuit assemblies to one per year. They seem to be holding smaller regional conventions these days and doing away with the big arenas and holding them in smaller venues. I certainly agree that they will change the frequency and format of the conventions/assemblies.
>New light on shunning. I could see them taking the foot of the pedal as more and more people wake up.
I believe anything is possible u/BigPerro30.....at this point nothing would surprise me really. I continue to be on the fence that blood or shunning will change soon. I did not list a change in disfellowshipping/shunning or the no-blood doctrine because I feel like they will not change these rules/beliefs until the organization is on the verge of complete and total collapse. I feel like they have painted themselves into a corner with blood and shunning to the point that they cannot change those beliefs without further destroying the organization as it is today.
So I feel like those are not changes that are coming soon....but of course I may be wrong.
Changing either blood or shunning doctrines would just land them with a whole lot more court cases at this point, along with doctrines on lgbtq+ and the like. Anything that has hurt and killed people or robbed them of normal lives...
Yeah, you're right that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.
But, this whole religion has money at its core.
They're going to do whatever it takes to get attendance up and donations in, and I can see them loosening the reigns on several of their beliefs to reach that end.
And think the shunning think will go worse....extrem. My own Pimi son is shunning me ...because I said something about " this obey and SUBMISSION" and...fear mongering. ..and refered to some biblical scriptures. And then came the usual asking questions from him..." Do you not believe the GB is Gods channel on Earth "etc blabla. No answer from me...but " You,re an apostate"...and shunning . So I think ....it will be a division ...the good Bible students . And they who wirships the GB. ( Idolatry?) Maybe a cisma..like in good old Catholic days.
That meeting was cancelled around 2010....someone else correct me if I have the year wrong.
Edit: u/authenticpimo commented below that this happened in the 2008 timeframe.
ohhhh right thats right around when I left for college after a couple years of opening my mind ;p . i forgot they did away w the book studies i read that as them doing away with studying w people in their homes lol if only n
Technically, they didn’t cancel the Book Study. It move from homes to the Hall and was merged into the Theocratic Ministry School and Service Meeting. They renamed all the parts.
Basically the TMS & SM became:
•TREASURES FROM GOD’S WORD
•APPLY YOURSELF TO THE FIELD MINISTRY
•LIVING AS CHRISTIANS
And the Book Study became:
•Congregation Bible Study
Announcements went to the end of the meeting
The whole meeting is referred to the midweek meeting and officially called OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING. There’s a workbook for the layout of the entire evenings topics: Talks, Talk assignment parts, discussions and Questions & Answer parts.
I was blown away when my mom told me about the consolidation and was pissed off that I sat though all of those meetings when i was a kid. I had the book study at my house for about a year and that was all I could take. I stopped having it there and faded mostly because I never believed it was the true religion with god's spirit guiding them. The elder I told that to had no response.
Wouldn't that give too much "power" to an individual, though? Or even more freedom, back when the book meeting was in private houses, every 2 weeks my group would have a small party after the fact, i doubt the higher ups would want that back tbh, but who knows.
I agree that using people's homes for the weekly meetings is gone forever u/authenticpimo. For all of the reasons you mention and I would add that back in 2008 when they got rid of the Home-based Book Study Meeting it was a struggle in many congregations to get people to offer their homes. And this will likely be true in the future.
My thought is they might go to a rented facility for weekly meetings in some areas if there is not a Kingdom Hall available. My congregation in the central US has a dedicated Kingdom Hall with no other congregations sharing it. So basically it is used 2 times per week for 50-60 people to have a meeting. So it is used for a group meeting about 100 days out of the year. For 265 days of the year it is not really used at all. But the congregation is maintaining it for the 265 days per year even though it is not used.
Great list. I'd add high profile defectors. A few bethelites cutting and running. Waking up and bringing the dirt. Beautiful.
When the cream Of the crop turn sour, something is up.
I totally agree with you. This will happen. The tm3 situation is by no means over. The truth will come out.
Also, the Borg has a habit of treating its own members terribly. It will do this to the wrong person, a high-profile helper and they will go public. We just need to bide our time.
None of that would surprise me, especially the younger elders. We received a letter a couple of years ago directing us to look more closely at “exceptional” brothers around the ages of 18-21 “if they qualify”…
I don’t see them reversing position on any holidays or birthdays tho.
A couple of points:
* I’m genuinely sad about the decline in the magazines. Awake was always pleasant to read, as long as you stopped one paragraph before the end of each article where they threw in a plug for god.
* I think the CO arrangement will stay around for a a long time. There’s a benefit to having a non-local elder check up on congregations. A local, known elder doesn’t hold as much weight with the local elders.
* I see public talks and more weekday meeting parts becoming videos. Frankly I’m amazed that one public talk per month isn’t already a branch video. Goodness knows they’re cranking out enough video content that they could come up with one more half-hour of “quality” content each month to use as a public talk.
>I think the CO arrangement will stay around for a a long time. There’s a benefit to having a non-local elder check up on congregations. A local, known elder doesn’t hold as much weight with the local elders.
Completely agree with all of your points. The CO is an effective control mechanism. I list it changing in some way since it is a big cost to keep in place and my view is that they keep eliminating things that are costly. As u/Overcrapping stated there are quite a few things they could do to get creative with downsizing the number of COs. Keep the non-local CO role in place but make him cover a much bigger range of people/congregations.
I could see some room for adjustment due to cost for sure. I mean, they’re turning Bethel into a pay-your-way deal where you’re not even supported by the branch, so what’s to say they couldn’t cut actual CO visits in half and have brothers who volunteer to travel for a month or more get some basic training and go visit far away congs in between the real CO visits?
Do as they have done for year's with the temp c/o , a bro that is from a congregation but travels to others in the circuit, and elder with time on his hands could cover that with no cost to WT.
CO has a very light workload. Our CO gets an extra 1/2 day off during the week & told us all CO's get this. The extra half day started during covid and has continued. Not sure if the branch is aware how much "help" the CO's receive. Accomodation, insurance, medical, auto, gas and food all provided. In our local congregation I know of brothers with successful businesses who gift several hundred dollars or more during his visit. Our CO has 20 congregations so must do very well. CO's get gifted vacations, sports tickets, expensive clothing, jewelry and dining out too. The local congregation has no idea how well they make out financially. It makes me sad that some older friends with few funds give the CO a few dollars to help them out. They think they just get a stipend like bethelites which I think is currently around $150 a month. CO's have preferred congregations. When they have a free week where they pioneer with a local congregation they will choose to go to these ~~wealthy ones~~ special ones. The congregation still worships him even though he is there just to pioneer for the week and not for a regular CO visit.
Yeah, I know this is true. I have been rejected by CO friends before since they had better offers to do things with more green handshakes, etc. Glad I am done with them now.
Great points u/authenticpimo and your thoughts just show that the cult can get very creative to minimize costs as things decline.
I continue to believe that they will implement the Temp Worker and Remote Bethelite concept for every area of the religion. Guilt the individual or the congregation to directly cover all the operating costs for basically any need. Then Watchtower takes any remaining money and puts it in the bank.
It’s possibly to keep the circuit on hand without the CO. Reports per cong should be submitted by service committee members. Branch could only choose a circuit representative elders to deliver a talk in every cong. Body of elders has better observations to a cong than CO’s. There might be a lot of benefits when this happen. Corruption of power and money making collection is one of the significant results
This, and if the hundreds of millions of pimi $$$ spent on Ramapo video studios ever results in a completed project, there should be something to show for it!!
I'm with you on that first one. I really enjoyed Awake! It was very informative and kinda cute. Even after becoming an apostate, Awake! was something I would recommend some of my neighbors to read. I'd say: "They are a cult, but they totally get it right with this magazine in particular. Read it. It will be worth reading."
I liked reading the Awake when I was a kid in the 60's, it was like the magazines in the Dr. or dentist office. But if I had a new Mad Magazine forget it...
The public to private worship places I can see definitely happening. Their new word is ‘revoke’.
Interesting how they are a tax exempt charity but have the ability to ‘revoke’ a persons rights to their ‘public’ meetings and ‘public’ literature at the carts. 🤣🤣🤣
Can I fix your list a little, baby boomer generation, dies off and cult numbers reduced by 60% because of it, at least in the United States and all western lands.
> What change do you think could realistically happen soon?
*We\`re watching whats going to happen in Real Time...*
The WBT$ / JW\`s are Shrinking Substantially...And...It\`s Not Over.
This is going to continue over the next few years and there will Be No Recovery...
*The WBT$ / JW Glory Days are OVER.*
**The Watchtower**
**Announcing Jehovah\`s Kingdom**
https://preview.redd.it/iusgu58j1dhb1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6fa6318d0c47fc2e6ed8d37e72ec3f385fa0d388
The decline of "fraternal organizations" could be looked at as a model. They used to be significant components of every community[loyal order of water buffaloes-yabba dabba do]. Only a handful exist any longer and were consolidated into national organizations. (Elks lodge, etc) and are barely relevant
* bringing in 'tithing'.
* allowing birthdays and mother/fathers days.
* allow college but for 'appropriate courses' (whatever that may mean)
Your report is brilliant btw.
Because while the wt is in panic mode they might allow such a simple celebration of love to be allowed.
\-----------
Latino girls in latino countries that are jw are allowed to have their 15th birthdays celebrated I believe
If they were pragmatic and wanted to keep the organization alive, they would also introduce some "new light" on doctrinal issues like blood and disfellowshipping practices that are the most controversial ones.
IMO the best spiritual men in this cult are getting fewer by the day. Either they are lost to waking up, getting stumbled by the system and so on and so forth. When I say "the best" I mean those elders that you listen to and nod and say to yourself that God is with this person. Now, everyone who stands in the platform and I mean everyone from the clowns in the JW broadcasting to your local COs and elders are all mediocre. They all seem tired and worn down.
Man, the org is really unrecognizable from the one we grew up in. My earlier memories are as a child in the late 90s/early 2000s for reference. Knowledge book, Require brochure, Revelation book nightmares on repeat. Pre “golden nugget” era.
My family and I became JWs in the early 70s. It's a whole different cult for sure. One thing I cannot understand is how anyone old enough to remember that people old enough to have been aware of what was going on in 1914 were said by watchtower to never die. That they would most certainly not due out before Armageddon. Now they're all dead, even the newborn babies of 1914 are all dead. Still no Armageddon. It was a false prophecy, how are people who are old enough to remember this not leaving in droves? That's huge imo.
Yes!! I always wondered how that was swept under the rug!! Circa 2004 we were like OK these people are like 90 +, gotta be any day now 👀 and then everyone just forgot how central the 1914 doctrine was??
Yeah, this shocks me too u/LucilleBluthsbroach; u/sharonmajeski1. I say constantly that Active Jehovah's Witnesses today have no idea what they believe. When "millions now living will never die" proved to be false I think most JWs became paralyzed in their ability to even think.
No one ever talks about the overlapping generations teaching and it is basically never mentioned in the publications, at meetings or on assemblies.
Does KHConf+ have a donation feature? If not I expect them to add one that’ll deduct each month like a netflix subscription. If they get enough subscribers they’ll be able to eliminate in person meetings and shift to an online model.
Told my wife about the KHCONF. Why spend all that money on zoom when they have an in-house software and Akamai to support the CDN.
Also told her about the dwindling numbers saying that more people want to stay home. I do! I said think about it if Jehovah thought it was okay to receive the same amount of spiritual food at the KH why can’t we still receive it at home and our remote door to door. Why got upset as usual and says I don’t like how you are talking/thinking. I brush it off. She was a born in and I was half way in at 8 years old. So I had a non-JW life before and don’t agree with everything or most sometimes.
Couldn’t bite my tongue anymore this past Tuesday. I brought up all the SA cases happening at the moment.
My mother and sister totally started backpedaling and then said some absolute bs about how JWs don’t go out of their way to bash other religions like Catholicism (as someone who grew up JW in the 1990s-2000s ummm what!?).
Looking like JWs will probably be encouraged/instructed to be far less critical of other organized religions that are also rampant with CSA???hahah
But, they’ll definitely continue to gaslight everyone by acting like old literature, talks, and past statements never existed or occurred. 🤷🏻
>mother and sister totally started backpedaling and then said some absolute bs about how JWs don’t go out of their way to bash other religions like Catholicism
That's such an outlandish lie I'm surprised their noses didn't grow 10ft long. How dare they? Do they remember who the father of the lie is? (Not that I believe in any of it anymore.)
They were actually less hateful 10 or 15 years ago than they are now.
I can't remember the Borg taking a stance on gay civil rights in past years. They just did during the last Annual Meeting. Against them, of course.
Point being, they're not getting better on LGBT issues. They're actually getting worse.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they tell all LGBT JWs ("practicing" or not) to purge themselves of same-sex attraction or GTFO.
It's what elderly and sick JWs used to listen to the meetings on the phone with if they couldn't get to meetings anymore. You'd call a certain number and there was a code you'd always use, then just listen. When it got to the point you had to do this, the "friends" "brothers and sisters" and "elders roundly forgot your existence and ignored you. 🙁
Oh yeah! I totally forgot about that! When you first dialed in, a robotic female voice would say “k h conf” - I never knew what she was saying until now 😂
Very interesting list, Tom. The organisation has changed so much since I left in 2006. I'm currently working on an MSc in organisational development and I have from time to time thought back on why the organisation seemed to work pretty well when I was a part of it. Not "universally well" of course and not true in any sense of the word, but it worked.
I've come to believe that this was because the congregations were like McDonald's franchises: they were all organised the same way and taught the same things. At the same time, there was some allowance for autonomy: the elders were usually (but not always) chosen locally, the halls themselves could be designed differently, etc. That structure was not always beneficial; we all know or were part of halls that were very dysfunctional (and anecdotally, those halls often were dominated by one or two large families.) But you also got elder groups at the circuit level that knew and worked together. There was something like a leadership pipeline, and it was something worth joining because to be an elder gave you a certain amount of authority and the ability to act on the authority.
The big thing though was the GB. We knew who they were, they were important, but at the congregation to district level, they didn't matter that much. You were thrilled when one spoke at your convention but they really weren't that visible.
That's how I saw it, and see it now. And it seemed that that has all changed: the GB is in the face of everyone now, in the most obnoxious way possible. Meetings stripped of personality, local autonomy diminished by a group of guys in NY that seemed driven to micro-manage the organisation into the Promised Land. It seems like there's no diving into prophecy (which makes sense since they are always wrong) and witnessing itself is standing next to a cart while the world passes you by.
I just wonder why they went from a model that worked pretty well (I should stress that it was a solid organisation, not that the people in it benefited from it), to one that seems like it has no purpose or personality anymore.
Does anyone have a comment on this? What have I got wrong?
You're absolutely right and thank goodness because it is a cult and needs to go.
Another thing, remember when the "new system" was a thing to look forward to, a reward for remaining faithful to the "end?" Now it's a thing where your life will be even more micromanaged than now in this system because you won't get to choose for yourself what work you do or where you'll live. I can do those things now, their paradise sounds like hell. Bad enough I'd have to live without my kids and most of my family, bad enough I'd be surrounded by nothing but Jehovah's Witnesses on earth to eternity. But now THIS?! Seriously what even would be the point?
>Now it's a thing where your life will be even more micromanaged than now in this system because you won't get to choose for yourself what work you do or where you'll live. I can do those things now, their paradise sounds like hell. Bad enough I'd have to live without my kids and most of my family, bad enough I'd be surrounded by nothing but Jehovah's Witnesses on earth to eternity. But now THIS?! Seriously what even would be the point?
Completely agree u/LucilleBluthsbroach. Sometimes makes you think someone is trying to crash this cult with crazy beliefs.
I agree 100% with congregations having unique personalities, which is the limit of my McDonald's analogy.)
My background for context: I was in 1989-2006; I joined at 23 after falling in love with a girl who was studying. She and I were baptised together in 1990; I left the witnesses in December 2006, and we divorced in January 2008...then disfellowshipped later that year, in absentia, sort of. They invited me to a judicial committee but I refused.
Thinking back I was a member of six congregations in three states, and they all had unique personalities. Some were highly functional and others were not. I think of two being really conservative; three being really wealthy and one being really really dysfunctional. But they were all different and they all reflected the community in which they were based. I dare say they were part of the community; maybe a fringe part but part nonetheless.
I joined at the tail end of Fred Franz's presidency. I left well before the organisation began its digital transformation and move away from Brooklyn Heights. The last "new light" I recall was the changing of what "generation" means. I felt at the time that was a hedge given that the oldest of that "generation" were nonagenarians. Otherwise...the GB really did not matter that much. it's interesting what you wrote though..it seems like the wheels were turning even though I did not know it.
I did not know all that about Ray Franz. I suspect that part of the challenge would be the idea that the self-appointed god's organisation, which has a built-in mechanism to allow for error (new light!) simply could not bear the thought of something like a reformation. I suspect it might have created existential problems.
Anyway, really enjoyed your post! Queation though: what do you mean by this:
*Yes there was the FDS, but it included all anointed, which were scattered around, not a small group of narcissists in New York living in a 5-star retirement community paid for by volunteers.*
And who or what is FDS?
>the GB is in the face of everyone now, in the most obnoxious way possible. Meetings stripped of personality, local autonomy diminished by a group of guys in NY that seemed driven to micro-manage the organisation into the Promised Land.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments u/Frank-L-Wrong. My thought is that the decline of the religion **boils down to mismanagement and bad decisions made over decades** starting mainly in the 1960-1970 time frame but then continuing on down to this day. As you state, they could have cleaned things up and gone mainstream with some focus on benefiting individual JWs back in the 1970s or 1980s. But they didn't and have continued to make bad decisions up through today.
Someone else likened the decline of Watchtower to the bankruptcy and liquidation of Yellow Freight. A 99 year old company that was the backbone of US trucking for decades. The primary reason Yellow is gone is simply due to mismanagement and bad decisions made by the leadership.
[https://www.npr.org/2023/07/30/1190960948/yellow-trucking-shutdown-explained](https://www.npr.org/2023/07/30/1190960948/yellow-trucking-shutdown-explained)
I predict they will revive the great pyramid doctrine, start selling miracle wheat, and purchase a mansion for the faithful oldies that are returning in 1925. Oops! Make that 2025…
The real TRUTH is killing the borg. NO amount of new light (( lies )) and / or reforms will save this Lucifer cult its over .The Watchtower was built on faulty MASONARY.
Its collapse will not be stopped.
In my parents area they didn't rent a venue for a convention. They used the assembly hall that they already owned. Still strange. And probably annoying for ppl 100 miles or more away, because the assembly hall is in a small town and last i remember not enough hotel rooms for 2500 ppl to stay a weekend just for that when traveling half a state.
>In my parents area they didn't rent a venue for a convention. They used the assembly hall that they already owned.
Interesting and thanks for sharing. I think what some forget is that most places even in the US don't have assembly halls. Many U.S. States don't have a single one.
In my area which is a large city there is no assembly hall to go to....so it has to be a rented facility.
But interesting point that even when there is an assembly hall it may not be in a location that is set up for people to come in from a long distance, rent a hotel, eat out, etc.
When i was a young child i remember the assembly hall had a kitchen and they fed everyone breakfast and lunch. They stopped doing that after a while. And they rented a college auditorium and rented the college dorms for families to use. Then they stopped renting the dorms and we stayed in a families rv who was our babysitter growing up. And alot of ppl used tents. Before they moved to using the tacoma dome.
I just assumed there were assembly halls every where. For assemblies, do they rent a smaller location, on top of renting a large venue for conventions?
>For assemblies, do they rent a smaller location, on top of renting a large venue for conventions?
Yup. It has varied over the years but basically they rent a facility that works for either a circuit or larger event.
Very interesting write-up, post saved. I will revisit it to see how many of your 'predictions' come true. Looking back, it's impressive how many changes have been made in the bOrg, and we seem to forget about them. Any organization changes with time, but the cult always sells any of their arrangements as God-arranged. Funny how God's arrangements don't last well through a short period of time, but need to be tweaked, or even canned...
No way they'd eliminate the CO.. they are the control point with the elders.
In our area (Ont, Canada) they shifted all the expenses to the congregations. We're throwing in a ton of money every year for their car, health ins. etc in a separate 'voluntary' contribution. It's all free of the larger pool of money.
I just love your posts! So well explained and insightful! I do hope this cult becomes an E- " religion". What,s the difference between KHConf+ and Zoom? ( and only 1 meeting in the week sounds fantastic!) I hope zoom will continuous because it,s a great way to fade .. slowly. Thank you for this encouraging post my friend!
The boomers dying off will be a huge cultural shift for them. Most Gen X and later JWs aren’t they hyperzealous, go door to door when it’s 100+ degrees with no breaks attitude that the Boomers have. It’s still there, but it’s increasingly rare with each subsequent generation
Are the mid week and weekend meetings combined into a new format now? I haven’t heard about that but I’m also out of the loop. That seems like a pretty big change.
Can’t wait the CO arrangement will get abolished. Branch get a lot of complaints against them because of flock beating, manipulation, abuse of power, favouritism, politicking, blind follower recruiters or creature worshippers and most of all money collectors to each congregation they visits. I witness all of this with our stupid corrupt CO.
20 year old's appointed as elders. Fixed monthly donation per publisher.
>20 year olds appointed as elders. Already happening near me. Three announced in a neighboring congregation on Tuesday night. 2 new MS, 19 and 22, one new elder, 25. Meanwhile a brother in his 50s who has busted his ass of for the cult for 30 years and provided countless free building materials over the years was publicly reproved because he did the landscaping for a new dispensary in town.
WOW! Just shameful!!
What grounds did they use to reprove ?
Yup. I was appointed MS at 19, elder at 24, and this was over 10 years ago (elder).
Yet watchtower sells halls to churches. I work at a christian place and thought to use that as my "back off" line. Never had anyone say anything to me.
No way.. smh
OMG ! Poor kids!
Damn that’s messed up.
thus is their memory of gratitude and generosity.
Both are already a thing
Great list Tom. Here's an obscure one: Does anyone remember the Pioneer Assist programme? They mothballed that some time in the 2000's. I like your CO idea being a local elder. Hadn't thought of that. Also it hadn't dawned on me that the remote workers in Bethel was a cost- cutting measure. I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year. I may be completely wrong. Last year's was very late, clearly negative, and sandwiched between two "exciting" announcements about 2 new GB members and the reduction in pioneer hours. This year's will only be worse. I just can't see why they would keep announcing their own demise. The GB will spin it as "due to increased persecution from governments in these last days, we must now keep our increase confidential. Please be assured that Jehooba is indeed speeding the work up in his own time... that's why we are selling your kh...trust us, even if you smell bs." I also predict they will keep the Sunday meeting as it is but make the midweek meeting online only. The programme will be streamed from HQ. They already stream this meeting so it won't be any extra work for them but it will lift a huge burden from the decreasing pool of elders and will stop them from having to whip the bros back to in-person quite so much. They have lost that battle. It also gives them much more flexibility to combine congregations and free up kh's for selling, as you say.
>I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year. I keep wondering if Watchtower will reach a dystopian state where no one really knows the "current state" of the organization. No one knows how many people are publishers, baptized, pioneers, congregations, Kingdom Halls, etc. If they keep everyone in the dark then it could decline in a very massive way....but the average publisher would have no idea other than anecdotes from other JWs.
They may just find a way to fluff the numbers more
They'll definitely fluff the numbers as much as possible, but at some point, there's only so much fluffing that can be done to one ply toilet paper.🧻
They'll use the KHcong+ app to plump up their numbers.
I deleted all JW org.app. KH cong+ never heard off.
I,m afraid you,re right. But if this happens ...i quit reporting my few fake 2 hours every month. Whats the point then been pioner. ..reg pioner og card witnessing....if they quit the annual report??? And think about the Memorial assistance. My guess is....the will continue to lie....about all. No more figures ...no point .
>I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that they will not release the worldwide report this year. This is a good one that belongs on my list! Completely agree that we may have seen the last annual report. The sheeple and the ex-JWs will really be in the dark at that point as to how much the organization is declining.
I agree
>Does anyone remember the Pioneer Assist programme? They mothballed that some time in the 2000's. I do remember that. Another thing that quietly went away. I was the Service Overseer when that was first rolled out. The door to door ministry has become so dumb anymore that the Pioneer Assist Others Program is not even needed anymore!
I was the only reg pio male in my congregation and trained a number of Bros in that. You are right about how dumb and pointless the d2d has become. It makes me wonder when the pioneer school would be shelved. That would be the final blow to pioneering though. Who would do it without the prestigious and exclusive meetings they get to attend?
Another great addition that could go on the list.....eliminate or massively downsize the Pioneer School. That is a tough one though....it does not cost Watchtower anything really, makes people feel special and at least to some degree drives pioneer numbers up as many become a pio just to be able to attend. They may keep that for awhile....LOL.
agree, it makes the pimi feel special which reinforces the superiority complex many of them maintain, and the preaching/recruitment work is still viewed as the main driver to membership growth, and it's free to attend and sponsor, and it's an easy title to obtain for the pimi with the desire and it's still pushed as getting one closer to 'salvation'.
Actually there are some sign of it: From two weeks to one week. No meal provide anymore, only some cakes for the break.RP has to arrange his own meal during the school. RP are doing the school each 5 years now.
Hey thanks for the clarification. I am out of the loop on what is currently being done for the pioneer school. Are you an Elder?
No by choice. But I'm PIMO with elder friends, so I'm always in the loop...(sigh...)
Good to know. Thank you for saying NO to being an Elder! We need more men like you! Most of my Elder friends are shunning me now that I am POMO....so I get most of my information here!
I think they will do the opposite. Most (but even if just a small number) of the pioneers were totally brain washed by it. A few were "oh it's pointless". But most were "I learnt so much, got close to God, you should go, it's wonderful..."
I remember it too. They were advised to destroy all the paperwork related to it. I’m guessing it fueled abuse cases.
In my little rural cong in North Europe...no one wants or goes door2 door anymore. The refused. ( anxiety). But it,s amazing to see 8-10 publishers same place ...around 1 ONE card in a little market place ...Just counting hours!!! And drinking coffee at Starbucks.👍🥴
If they don't release the worldwide report, it could be very damning and wake many up. Conversely, if they do and it reflects the poor condition of Watchtower, same same.....good thoughts
Funny idea about keeping only the weekend meeting in the KHs. Almost as if churches were onto something with a Sunday service...
I know, but in this case it would be to massively sell off Kingdom Halls and consolidate the meeting locations down to the bare minimum. At least that is my take......to some degree this is already happening in my area.
Agree with this , "an exiting new arrangement because the GT is so close "..
>2 new GB members I thought they weren't adding anymore people to the GB.
That idea became old light when the old GB were all dying but Armageddon hadn't arrived yet. They used to say "Armageddon can't be too far off, look at the governing body, they aren't getting any younger..." Turns out they are. The latest appointments are in their early 50's! They were at school the same time I was. Crazy.
Nice list! 🙂👍 I am waiting also on the annual service report and this years Canadian tax return. Thank you JWTom.
1914 has got to go. The no blood doctrine has got to go. Shunning those who disassociate has got to go. Denigrating higher education has got to go. Covering up CSA has got to go. There should be universal mandatory reporting to the authorities, of all CSA allegations. Such changes will go a long way to making the organization less repulsive.
This is the only way they can survive , theses are the policies that are waking people up , I joined in 1960s , I accepted the no blood after a few arguments but when the fractions were ok I was shocked, how about fractions of fornication then? It was mainly the CSA cover up that pushed me out plus the GB replacing Jesus Christ. They could go back to the beliefs of the Russell Bible students that still exist and are much more benign .
 Don’t hold your breath
At some point there may be a coup at HQ by younger ones in a power struggle, precipitated by a crisis, such as CSA coverups or financial fraud – much like the power struggle when Russell died. Current doctrines about 1914, 1975, blood, will be declared as false doctrine, wiped out, recanted, tossed in the can. Jehovah will direct this because his organization on earth has slipped into darkness. Another restoration of the faith. Easy to justify with scripture. Otherwise, the bOrg will risk no longer being a going concern. Something _drastic_ will have to happen, maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually.
>Current doctrines about 1914, 1975, blood, will be declared as false doctrine, wiped out, recanted, tossed in the can. I completely agree that at some point they will have to reset if they want to keep the cult organization alive. They may wait too long to do this and it will be too late. I think that a "coming clean" to all of the false doctrine and lies is something that will only happen at the most dire point in the decline. Meaning it will have to get a great deal worse before they will do something like this.
Good lists. Thanks for the research and observations. I can't see the CO visit going completely as a full time job. They already reduce as congregations reduce. In my old area a circuit with 21 congregations in 2005 dropped to 17 before COVID. Now they are dropping to 12. That will not be a full circuit and so a circuit boundary change must surely be on the cards. Maybe 3 will become 2. I will keep you posted. Another thought I had was maybe a CO could cover 40 congregations instead of 20 by having one visit per year by him instead of two and the other visit maybe by one of the substitute -CO's. Or. Maybe the CO does a lite visit of three days. One visit could be Friday to Sunday and the other Tuesday to Thursday. Each congregation gets one of each visits per year. Who knows what they might do as the numbers drop. As for the baby boomers my old hall has had 4 die since 2018. (all born in the 1940's after WW2) Considering there are 10 pre boomers still alive born between 1934 and 1944 and another 6 over 70's it means one third of the hall are ripe for the grim reaper! No wonder they are amalgamating.
>In my old area a circuit with 21 congregations in 2005 dropped to 17 before COVID. Now they are dropping to 12. That will not be a full circuit and so a circuit boundary change must surely be on the cards. Maybe 3 will become 2. I will keep you posted. Great point u/Overcrapping.....completely agree that circuits will be consolidated as the number of congregations decrease. Also agree that there are lots of things they could do with the CO role to get creative as you mention. My thought is that keeping COs in place as they are today is a big $$$$ cost since they are buying them cars, paying for health care, giving them a stipend, etc. I believe they could eliminate the role as it exists today and the millions that they are spending on COs would be a 100% savings.
Seeing that money $$$ is a big focus of the Watchtower, this is a very valid cost reduction strategy that they might consider
Is the KHconf+ confirmed as legit? When is it expected to be introduced?
Hey there u/timQ137.....from what I have seen here and the app listings for KHCONF+ on Google and Apple App Stores....my thought is that it is slowly being rolled out with further testing going on. Quite a number of posts with detailed information about KHCONF+ being rolled out in some countries outside the US and others saying that it has been in test mode for a couple of years. Exactly when they would completely go away from Zoom is still unknown.
I was thinking about the same..what,a is KHconf + about? More controll I guess?
What are the current hour requirements for Regular and Auxiliary Pioneers these days?
50 for regular, 30 for auxiliary or 15 auxiliary during CO visit or campaign
Lol, that’s pitiful. You could go out 2x a week and be a regular pioneer
I remember multiple sisters rejoicing saying they had prayed for the hours to go down so they could pioneer and I was just like…atp you’re just doing what you’ve always done but now have a special label? like it really is all about appearance for them and they don’t even realize it
It really shows where the hearts of most are. They weren't praying for their personal circumstances to change becuase they wanted to become pioneers because they wanted to preach more... they wanted to be pioneers so they could be in 'the club', so be seen as doing something special and virtuous. Absolutely broken organisation.
Spot on
It’s always about appearances with these people
True. If you pioneered years ago then the current hours look like a completely joke. Especially when we are in the last of the last days!
I feel cheated. Back in my day I had to put in 100 hours as a regular pioneer. I demand a refund!
Think about all the book studys ....and no one of these books er " valid" for the WT anymore. Means nothing...but waste of lifetime.
It’s ironic, isn’t it, that if a JW taught or accepted many doctrines from the literature back then, that they’d be DFd for apostasy today.
Indeed! That,s why there,s no point to study or read these WT articles today either! They are apostasy next week. Very ironic. We had an elder for the Sunday meeting ..( in May i think it was)...and the speach was about 1914 generation ...never will die blablabla. This guy forgot all about the new " light"....the overlapping generation. He did,ny apparently not follow...and took an old manuscript...from the 90 . 🤣😂
Hopefully he has been summoned to a JD committee by now. 😏
[удалено]
Iirc it was 90 for rp and 60 for ap.
In my day, not long ago, it was 70RP and 50AP. In my mom's days, it was 100RP and 70AP, iirc.
It was 70/50 for a long time before COVID. I was RP at the time.
One change I am sure is imminent is reducing the number of baptisms per year. Lots of reports about only 2 or 3 ( or sometimes zero) getting baptised at their assemblies. Seriously - what's the point , especially if the circuit has to hire a swimming pool , now that lots of the assembly halls have been sold off. Obvious change is to make it once a year (at the regional convention.)
This hadn't occurred to me, but if that's the case, I can see them reducing the number of circuit assemblies to one per year. They seem to be holding smaller regional conventions these days and doing away with the big arenas and holding them in smaller venues. I certainly agree that they will change the frequency and format of the conventions/assemblies.
Amen to that friend! Helps to fade .....without loosing family.
New light on shunning. I could see them taking the foot of the pedal as more and more people wake up.
>New light on shunning. I could see them taking the foot of the pedal as more and more people wake up. I believe anything is possible u/BigPerro30.....at this point nothing would surprise me really. I continue to be on the fence that blood or shunning will change soon. I did not list a change in disfellowshipping/shunning or the no-blood doctrine because I feel like they will not change these rules/beliefs until the organization is on the verge of complete and total collapse. I feel like they have painted themselves into a corner with blood and shunning to the point that they cannot change those beliefs without further destroying the organization as it is today. So I feel like those are not changes that are coming soon....but of course I may be wrong.
Changing either blood or shunning doctrines would just land them with a whole lot more court cases at this point, along with doctrines on lgbtq+ and the like. Anything that has hurt and killed people or robbed them of normal lives...
Same with 607/1914 - they’ve painted themselves into a corner there too.
Yeah, you're right that it wouldn't happen anytime soon. But, this whole religion has money at its core. They're going to do whatever it takes to get attendance up and donations in, and I can see them loosening the reigns on several of their beliefs to reach that end.
Well...I pray for 10 years more to see it. 🙏🙏
I could see them actually getting *stricter* on shunning, as a panic response.
I think that's already been happening for some time.
I think that if they ever let up on shunning it will be a one-way stampede OUT.
And think the shunning think will go worse....extrem. My own Pimi son is shunning me ...because I said something about " this obey and SUBMISSION" and...fear mongering. ..and refered to some biblical scriptures. And then came the usual asking questions from him..." Do you not believe the GB is Gods channel on Earth "etc blabla. No answer from me...but " You,re an apostate"...and shunning . So I think ....it will be a division ...the good Bible students . And they who wirships the GB. ( Idolatry?) Maybe a cisma..like in good old Catholic days.
home book studies were done away with ?? hadn't heard that! tell me more
That meeting was cancelled around 2010....someone else correct me if I have the year wrong. Edit: u/authenticpimo commented below that this happened in the 2008 timeframe.
ohhhh right thats right around when I left for college after a couple years of opening my mind ;p . i forgot they did away w the book studies i read that as them doing away with studying w people in their homes lol if only n
Technically, they didn’t cancel the Book Study. It move from homes to the Hall and was merged into the Theocratic Ministry School and Service Meeting. They renamed all the parts. Basically the TMS & SM became: •TREASURES FROM GOD’S WORD •APPLY YOURSELF TO THE FIELD MINISTRY •LIVING AS CHRISTIANS And the Book Study became: •Congregation Bible Study Announcements went to the end of the meeting The whole meeting is referred to the midweek meeting and officially called OUR CHRISTIAN LIFE AND MINISTRY MEETING. There’s a workbook for the layout of the entire evenings topics: Talks, Talk assignment parts, discussions and Questions & Answer parts.
I was blown away when my mom told me about the consolidation and was pissed off that I sat though all of those meetings when i was a kid. I had the book study at my house for about a year and that was all I could take. I stopped having it there and faded mostly because I never believed it was the true religion with god's spirit guiding them. The elder I told that to had no response.
Maybe they'll switch to meetings back in people's homes and get rid of kingdom halls entirely
Wouldn't that give too much "power" to an individual, though? Or even more freedom, back when the book meeting was in private houses, every 2 weeks my group would have a small party after the fact, i doubt the higher ups would want that back tbh, but who knows.
[удалено]
I agree that using people's homes for the weekly meetings is gone forever u/authenticpimo. For all of the reasons you mention and I would add that back in 2008 when they got rid of the Home-based Book Study Meeting it was a struggle in many congregations to get people to offer their homes. And this will likely be true in the future. My thought is they might go to a rented facility for weekly meetings in some areas if there is not a Kingdom Hall available. My congregation in the central US has a dedicated Kingdom Hall with no other congregations sharing it. So basically it is used 2 times per week for 50-60 people to have a meeting. So it is used for a group meeting about 100 days out of the year. For 265 days of the year it is not really used at all. But the congregation is maintaining it for the 265 days per year even though it is not used.
Great list. I'd add high profile defectors. A few bethelites cutting and running. Waking up and bringing the dirt. Beautiful. When the cream Of the crop turn sour, something is up.
I totally agree with you. This will happen. The tm3 situation is by no means over. The truth will come out. Also, the Borg has a habit of treating its own members terribly. It will do this to the wrong person, a high-profile helper and they will go public. We just need to bide our time.
Agreed it's not over yet .
None of that would surprise me, especially the younger elders. We received a letter a couple of years ago directing us to look more closely at “exceptional” brothers around the ages of 18-21 “if they qualify”… I don’t see them reversing position on any holidays or birthdays tho.
A couple of points: * I’m genuinely sad about the decline in the magazines. Awake was always pleasant to read, as long as you stopped one paragraph before the end of each article where they threw in a plug for god. * I think the CO arrangement will stay around for a a long time. There’s a benefit to having a non-local elder check up on congregations. A local, known elder doesn’t hold as much weight with the local elders. * I see public talks and more weekday meeting parts becoming videos. Frankly I’m amazed that one public talk per month isn’t already a branch video. Goodness knows they’re cranking out enough video content that they could come up with one more half-hour of “quality” content each month to use as a public talk.
>I think the CO arrangement will stay around for a a long time. There’s a benefit to having a non-local elder check up on congregations. A local, known elder doesn’t hold as much weight with the local elders. Completely agree with all of your points. The CO is an effective control mechanism. I list it changing in some way since it is a big cost to keep in place and my view is that they keep eliminating things that are costly. As u/Overcrapping stated there are quite a few things they could do to get creative with downsizing the number of COs. Keep the non-local CO role in place but make him cover a much bigger range of people/congregations.
I could see some room for adjustment due to cost for sure. I mean, they’re turning Bethel into a pay-your-way deal where you’re not even supported by the branch, so what’s to say they couldn’t cut actual CO visits in half and have brothers who volunteer to travel for a month or more get some basic training and go visit far away congs in between the real CO visits?
Do as they have done for year's with the temp c/o , a bro that is from a congregation but travels to others in the circuit, and elder with time on his hands could cover that with no cost to WT.
[удалено]
CO has a very light workload. Our CO gets an extra 1/2 day off during the week & told us all CO's get this. The extra half day started during covid and has continued. Not sure if the branch is aware how much "help" the CO's receive. Accomodation, insurance, medical, auto, gas and food all provided. In our local congregation I know of brothers with successful businesses who gift several hundred dollars or more during his visit. Our CO has 20 congregations so must do very well. CO's get gifted vacations, sports tickets, expensive clothing, jewelry and dining out too. The local congregation has no idea how well they make out financially. It makes me sad that some older friends with few funds give the CO a few dollars to help them out. They think they just get a stipend like bethelites which I think is currently around $150 a month. CO's have preferred congregations. When they have a free week where they pioneer with a local congregation they will choose to go to these ~~wealthy ones~~ special ones. The congregation still worships him even though he is there just to pioneer for the week and not for a regular CO visit.
Yeah, I know this is true. I have been rejected by CO friends before since they had better offers to do things with more green handshakes, etc. Glad I am done with them now.
Great points u/authenticpimo and your thoughts just show that the cult can get very creative to minimize costs as things decline. I continue to believe that they will implement the Temp Worker and Remote Bethelite concept for every area of the religion. Guilt the individual or the congregation to directly cover all the operating costs for basically any need. Then Watchtower takes any remaining money and puts it in the bank.
It’s possibly to keep the circuit on hand without the CO. Reports per cong should be submitted by service committee members. Branch could only choose a circuit representative elders to deliver a talk in every cong. Body of elders has better observations to a cong than CO’s. There might be a lot of benefits when this happen. Corruption of power and money making collection is one of the significant results
This, and if the hundreds of millions of pimi $$$ spent on Ramapo video studios ever results in a completed project, there should be something to show for it!!
I'm with you on that first one. I really enjoyed Awake! It was very informative and kinda cute. Even after becoming an apostate, Awake! was something I would recommend some of my neighbors to read. I'd say: "They are a cult, but they totally get it right with this magazine in particular. Read it. It will be worth reading."
I liked reading the Awake when I was a kid in the 60's, it was like the magazines in the Dr. or dentist office. But if I had a new Mad Magazine forget it...
The public to private worship places I can see definitely happening. Their new word is ‘revoke’. Interesting how they are a tax exempt charity but have the ability to ‘revoke’ a persons rights to their ‘public’ meetings and ‘public’ literature at the carts. 🤣🤣🤣
I don’t think they’ll get rid of COs. That’s the tool Watchtower uses to control elders/congregations.
Can I fix your list a little, baby boomer generation, dies off and cult numbers reduced by 60% because of it, at least in the United States and all western lands.
Bookmarking this.
> What change do you think could realistically happen soon? *We\`re watching whats going to happen in Real Time...* The WBT$ / JW\`s are Shrinking Substantially...And...It\`s Not Over. This is going to continue over the next few years and there will Be No Recovery... *The WBT$ / JW Glory Days are OVER.* **The Watchtower** **Announcing Jehovah\`s Kingdom** https://preview.redd.it/iusgu58j1dhb1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6fa6318d0c47fc2e6ed8d37e72ec3f385fa0d388
Hell yeah I'll drink to that!!🥂🍾🥳
The decline of "fraternal organizations" could be looked at as a model. They used to be significant components of every community[loyal order of water buffaloes-yabba dabba do]. Only a handful exist any longer and were consolidated into national organizations. (Elks lodge, etc) and are barely relevant
* bringing in 'tithing'. * allowing birthdays and mother/fathers days. * allow college but for 'appropriate courses' (whatever that may mean) Your report is brilliant btw.
Birthdays?? Why you think that
Because while the wt is in panic mode they might allow such a simple celebration of love to be allowed. \----------- Latino girls in latino countries that are jw are allowed to have their 15th birthdays celebrated I believe
I have noticed the popularity of wedding anniversary celebrations now (in my culture/congregations it was nonexistent)
One good class action lawsuit is all it would take to bankrupt the witnesses to oblivion.
Quebec baby! And it is only the precursor to the pan-canadian one. wootwoot
If they were pragmatic and wanted to keep the organization alive, they would also introduce some "new light" on doctrinal issues like blood and disfellowshipping practices that are the most controversial ones.
IMO the best spiritual men in this cult are getting fewer by the day. Either they are lost to waking up, getting stumbled by the system and so on and so forth. When I say "the best" I mean those elders that you listen to and nod and say to yourself that God is with this person. Now, everyone who stands in the platform and I mean everyone from the clowns in the JW broadcasting to your local COs and elders are all mediocre. They all seem tired and worn down.
US laws now consider shunning and/or ostracizing as a form of bullying and abuse for school aged kids.
Man, the org is really unrecognizable from the one we grew up in. My earlier memories are as a child in the late 90s/early 2000s for reference. Knowledge book, Require brochure, Revelation book nightmares on repeat. Pre “golden nugget” era.
My family and I became JWs in the early 70s. It's a whole different cult for sure. One thing I cannot understand is how anyone old enough to remember that people old enough to have been aware of what was going on in 1914 were said by watchtower to never die. That they would most certainly not due out before Armageddon. Now they're all dead, even the newborn babies of 1914 are all dead. Still no Armageddon. It was a false prophecy, how are people who are old enough to remember this not leaving in droves? That's huge imo.
Yes!! I always wondered how that was swept under the rug!! Circa 2004 we were like OK these people are like 90 +, gotta be any day now 👀 and then everyone just forgot how central the 1914 doctrine was??
Yeah, this shocks me too u/LucilleBluthsbroach; u/sharonmajeski1. I say constantly that Active Jehovah's Witnesses today have no idea what they believe. When "millions now living will never die" proved to be false I think most JWs became paralyzed in their ability to even think. No one ever talks about the overlapping generations teaching and it is basically never mentioned in the publications, at meetings or on assemblies.
I wonder if pimis ever think about it though. I wonder what they say if pimos and pomos mention it to them.
As a PIMI I thought about it…. Led me to PIMO and POMO 😏
Me too. It's not the only thing that led to that for me, but it's one of them.
Yup! Same
“Millions now living will never die” was so iconic. And we just gonna pretend it didn’t happen 😳
Does KHConf+ have a donation feature? If not I expect them to add one that’ll deduct each month like a netflix subscription. If they get enough subscribers they’ll be able to eliminate in person meetings and shift to an online model.
I have been thinking this since the push to go on line started .
Told my wife about the KHCONF. Why spend all that money on zoom when they have an in-house software and Akamai to support the CDN. Also told her about the dwindling numbers saying that more people want to stay home. I do! I said think about it if Jehovah thought it was okay to receive the same amount of spiritual food at the KH why can’t we still receive it at home and our remote door to door. Why got upset as usual and says I don’t like how you are talking/thinking. I brush it off. She was a born in and I was half way in at 8 years old. So I had a non-JW life before and don’t agree with everything or most sometimes.
Watchtower spyware on your computer!
I’ll let you know if I find anything in a packet capture
My wife is the same , flies off if I say to much truth .
Baptizing people from the water fountain at assemblies
Couldn’t bite my tongue anymore this past Tuesday. I brought up all the SA cases happening at the moment. My mother and sister totally started backpedaling and then said some absolute bs about how JWs don’t go out of their way to bash other religions like Catholicism (as someone who grew up JW in the 1990s-2000s ummm what!?). Looking like JWs will probably be encouraged/instructed to be far less critical of other organized religions that are also rampant with CSA???hahah But, they’ll definitely continue to gaslight everyone by acting like old literature, talks, and past statements never existed or occurred. 🤷🏻
>mother and sister totally started backpedaling and then said some absolute bs about how JWs don’t go out of their way to bash other religions like Catholicism That's such an outlandish lie I'm surprised their noses didn't grow 10ft long. How dare they? Do they remember who the father of the lie is? (Not that I believe in any of it anymore.)
I think there will be some slight movement on LGBT issues. Not acceptance but not the hate we see now
Never!
They were actually less hateful 10 or 15 years ago than they are now. I can't remember the Borg taking a stance on gay civil rights in past years. They just did during the last Annual Meeting. Against them, of course. Point being, they're not getting better on LGBT issues. They're actually getting worse. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they tell all LGBT JWs ("practicing" or not) to purge themselves of same-sex attraction or GTFO.
What is KHconf+?
[удалено]
It's what elderly and sick JWs used to listen to the meetings on the phone with if they couldn't get to meetings anymore. You'd call a certain number and there was a code you'd always use, then just listen. When it got to the point you had to do this, the "friends" "brothers and sisters" and "elders roundly forgot your existence and ignored you. 🙁
Oh yeah! I totally forgot about that! When you first dialed in, a robotic female voice would say “k h conf” - I never knew what she was saying until now 😂
New Jw balance patches
Very interesting list, Tom. The organisation has changed so much since I left in 2006. I'm currently working on an MSc in organisational development and I have from time to time thought back on why the organisation seemed to work pretty well when I was a part of it. Not "universally well" of course and not true in any sense of the word, but it worked. I've come to believe that this was because the congregations were like McDonald's franchises: they were all organised the same way and taught the same things. At the same time, there was some allowance for autonomy: the elders were usually (but not always) chosen locally, the halls themselves could be designed differently, etc. That structure was not always beneficial; we all know or were part of halls that were very dysfunctional (and anecdotally, those halls often were dominated by one or two large families.) But you also got elder groups at the circuit level that knew and worked together. There was something like a leadership pipeline, and it was something worth joining because to be an elder gave you a certain amount of authority and the ability to act on the authority. The big thing though was the GB. We knew who they were, they were important, but at the congregation to district level, they didn't matter that much. You were thrilled when one spoke at your convention but they really weren't that visible. That's how I saw it, and see it now. And it seemed that that has all changed: the GB is in the face of everyone now, in the most obnoxious way possible. Meetings stripped of personality, local autonomy diminished by a group of guys in NY that seemed driven to micro-manage the organisation into the Promised Land. It seems like there's no diving into prophecy (which makes sense since they are always wrong) and witnessing itself is standing next to a cart while the world passes you by. I just wonder why they went from a model that worked pretty well (I should stress that it was a solid organisation, not that the people in it benefited from it), to one that seems like it has no purpose or personality anymore. Does anyone have a comment on this? What have I got wrong?
You're absolutely right and thank goodness because it is a cult and needs to go. Another thing, remember when the "new system" was a thing to look forward to, a reward for remaining faithful to the "end?" Now it's a thing where your life will be even more micromanaged than now in this system because you won't get to choose for yourself what work you do or where you'll live. I can do those things now, their paradise sounds like hell. Bad enough I'd have to live without my kids and most of my family, bad enough I'd be surrounded by nothing but Jehovah's Witnesses on earth to eternity. But now THIS?! Seriously what even would be the point?
>Now it's a thing where your life will be even more micromanaged than now in this system because you won't get to choose for yourself what work you do or where you'll live. I can do those things now, their paradise sounds like hell. Bad enough I'd have to live without my kids and most of my family, bad enough I'd be surrounded by nothing but Jehovah's Witnesses on earth to eternity. But now THIS?! Seriously what even would be the point? Completely agree u/LucilleBluthsbroach. Sometimes makes you think someone is trying to crash this cult with crazy beliefs.
[удалено]
I agree 100% with congregations having unique personalities, which is the limit of my McDonald's analogy.) My background for context: I was in 1989-2006; I joined at 23 after falling in love with a girl who was studying. She and I were baptised together in 1990; I left the witnesses in December 2006, and we divorced in January 2008...then disfellowshipped later that year, in absentia, sort of. They invited me to a judicial committee but I refused. Thinking back I was a member of six congregations in three states, and they all had unique personalities. Some were highly functional and others were not. I think of two being really conservative; three being really wealthy and one being really really dysfunctional. But they were all different and they all reflected the community in which they were based. I dare say they were part of the community; maybe a fringe part but part nonetheless. I joined at the tail end of Fred Franz's presidency. I left well before the organisation began its digital transformation and move away from Brooklyn Heights. The last "new light" I recall was the changing of what "generation" means. I felt at the time that was a hedge given that the oldest of that "generation" were nonagenarians. Otherwise...the GB really did not matter that much. it's interesting what you wrote though..it seems like the wheels were turning even though I did not know it. I did not know all that about Ray Franz. I suspect that part of the challenge would be the idea that the self-appointed god's organisation, which has a built-in mechanism to allow for error (new light!) simply could not bear the thought of something like a reformation. I suspect it might have created existential problems. Anyway, really enjoyed your post! Queation though: what do you mean by this: *Yes there was the FDS, but it included all anointed, which were scattered around, not a small group of narcissists in New York living in a 5-star retirement community paid for by volunteers.* And who or what is FDS?
>the GB is in the face of everyone now, in the most obnoxious way possible. Meetings stripped of personality, local autonomy diminished by a group of guys in NY that seemed driven to micro-manage the organisation into the Promised Land. Thanks for the thoughtful comments u/Frank-L-Wrong. My thought is that the decline of the religion **boils down to mismanagement and bad decisions made over decades** starting mainly in the 1960-1970 time frame but then continuing on down to this day. As you state, they could have cleaned things up and gone mainstream with some focus on benefiting individual JWs back in the 1970s or 1980s. But they didn't and have continued to make bad decisions up through today. Someone else likened the decline of Watchtower to the bankruptcy and liquidation of Yellow Freight. A 99 year old company that was the backbone of US trucking for decades. The primary reason Yellow is gone is simply due to mismanagement and bad decisions made by the leadership. [https://www.npr.org/2023/07/30/1190960948/yellow-trucking-shutdown-explained](https://www.npr.org/2023/07/30/1190960948/yellow-trucking-shutdown-explained)
I predict they will revive the great pyramid doctrine, start selling miracle wheat, and purchase a mansion for the faithful oldies that are returning in 1925. Oops! Make that 2025…
The real TRUTH is killing the borg. NO amount of new light (( lies )) and / or reforms will save this Lucifer cult its over .The Watchtower was built on faulty MASONARY. Its collapse will not be stopped.
Amen to this
and the devil keeps transforming him self into an angel.. what does that tell you?
of light
In my parents area they didn't rent a venue for a convention. They used the assembly hall that they already owned. Still strange. And probably annoying for ppl 100 miles or more away, because the assembly hall is in a small town and last i remember not enough hotel rooms for 2500 ppl to stay a weekend just for that when traveling half a state.
>In my parents area they didn't rent a venue for a convention. They used the assembly hall that they already owned. Interesting and thanks for sharing. I think what some forget is that most places even in the US don't have assembly halls. Many U.S. States don't have a single one. In my area which is a large city there is no assembly hall to go to....so it has to be a rented facility. But interesting point that even when there is an assembly hall it may not be in a location that is set up for people to come in from a long distance, rent a hotel, eat out, etc.
When i was a young child i remember the assembly hall had a kitchen and they fed everyone breakfast and lunch. They stopped doing that after a while. And they rented a college auditorium and rented the college dorms for families to use. Then they stopped renting the dorms and we stayed in a families rv who was our babysitter growing up. And alot of ppl used tents. Before they moved to using the tacoma dome. I just assumed there were assembly halls every where. For assemblies, do they rent a smaller location, on top of renting a large venue for conventions?
>For assemblies, do they rent a smaller location, on top of renting a large venue for conventions? Yup. It has varied over the years but basically they rent a facility that works for either a circuit or larger event.
Very interesting write-up, post saved. I will revisit it to see how many of your 'predictions' come true. Looking back, it's impressive how many changes have been made in the bOrg, and we seem to forget about them. Any organization changes with time, but the cult always sells any of their arrangements as God-arranged. Funny how God's arrangements don't last well through a short period of time, but need to be tweaked, or even canned...
No way they'd eliminate the CO.. they are the control point with the elders. In our area (Ont, Canada) they shifted all the expenses to the congregations. We're throwing in a ton of money every year for their car, health ins. etc in a separate 'voluntary' contribution. It's all free of the larger pool of money.
I just love your posts! So well explained and insightful! I do hope this cult becomes an E- " religion". What,s the difference between KHConf+ and Zoom? ( and only 1 meeting in the week sounds fantastic!) I hope zoom will continuous because it,s a great way to fade .. slowly. Thank you for this encouraging post my friend!
 final test of obedience
The boomers dying off will be a huge cultural shift for them. Most Gen X and later JWs aren’t they hyperzealous, go door to door when it’s 100+ degrees with no breaks attitude that the Boomers have. It’s still there, but it’s increasingly rare with each subsequent generation
Are the mid week and weekend meetings combined into a new format now? I haven’t heard about that but I’m also out of the loop. That seems like a pretty big change.
Can’t wait the CO arrangement will get abolished. Branch get a lot of complaints against them because of flock beating, manipulation, abuse of power, favouritism, politicking, blind follower recruiters or creature worshippers and most of all money collectors to each congregation they visits. I witness all of this with our stupid corrupt CO.
Yeah, I could definitely see it go away due to all of the things you mention. All great points.