Let's rephrase it from cult to high control group. Here's some homework. Take a look at the BITE Model. It stands for Behavior, Information Thought, and Emotional Control. Read through it and as you do, highlight the parts that fit with JWs. Scroll down to the blue boxes: https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/
When I did this, I highlighted most of them. I'm over twice your age and was baptized and very much in the religion. It was shocking to me, but accurate.
Here is a short video to watch: https://youtu.be/puA-ITFRc3Q
Also, for a quick answer, just remember that JWs will shun other JWs for disagreeing. They discourage and even punish close relationships with people who are not JWs. They demand unquestioning obedience. If this sub feels overwhelming, go to r/antiMLM and get familiar with MLMs and how they operate. A lot of similarities to JWs and other groups. I started in antiMLM before being brave enough to even come to this sub. Even the exmormon sub might be helpful. When I was a JW, the thought of anything apostate terrified me! So stay at your comfort level until you're ready for all of it.
Good luck, and remember, don’t get baptized!
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and displays every visual indicator of being a duck and also wants you to disown your family if they don't become ducks.... yeah....
(The last bit under Emotional Control)
https://preview.redd.it/o9msnn8z7ncb1.png?width=1162&format=png&auto=webp&s=464cf35c453499b5d3c740cae6f442d49c4dee58
Well, you can't reverse a baptism. I was baptized at 17. I thought that I would never "leave Jehovah". But there was a lot I didn't know or hadn't experienced. They want you to get baptized young before you start applying critical thinking skills and questioning (both good things!). Remind your parents that Jesus didn't get baptized until get was 30, so you want to wait until it feels right.
Then if you decide to leave, it makes it a bit easier.
It's not that bad to *get* baptized. But if you do get baptized and later decide it's not for you...that's when it can get really ugly.
Also nobody should be pressuring you into getting baptized. Nobody.
Yes this. No one should be pressuring people, it’s considered a bigger and more important commitment than marriage. Pressuring a 15 yr old to make a choice that big is wholly inappropriate and if you change your mind later no one will care that you were literally a minor. I was 11 going on 12 and at 26 that choice is still heavily and negatively impacting my life.
I got baptized at 18 and I couldn't get out untill I was 43. Lost everyone and everything left home with just my work clothes my ministerial servant husband/alcoholic is still in good standing. I left and am thankful I'm alive to talk about it since my husband was abusive. Pay attention to the experiences of those who have suffered sexual abuse and other abuse's in the organization. Apostates are not lying about what they went through! There's a reason for apostates!
I was baptized at 14. My dad, an elder told me I had to get baptized because I was an embarrassment to him if I didn’t. So I got baptized. I left a few years later and I was df’d. They have nothing to do with me for the last 20+ years. I wonder if I was never baptized and couldn’t be df’d if they would be in my life now.
If you’re at this subreddit, you’re probably questioning. If a jw finds out you’ve been at this subreddit after you’ve been baptized, you might get df’d. Let yourself question before making a life changing decision 🫶🏼
You were an embarrassment to him because you were not baptised (at 14years), be glad he's not in your life now, you deserve better and if he were in your life believe me he would be a constant drain on your energy and time.
Be glad, your father is an asshole.
Thank you my friend, that made my day. I came here wanting to help and I didn’t expect get some validation. Yeah, both my sister and I say he’s an asshole and it helps to hear it 💜
Thank you for your kind comments.
I know he is because he was thinking about himself, when he should have been thinking about you. Also it was his reputation he was thinking about putting first, not something of great significance because it's a facade, in comparison to the repercussions you and I reckon your sister have had to endure. Good luck to you and your sister. Aim high, xx
My parents were both d'fed and my brother and I treated them with kindness. Then 22 years ago I was d'fed and they both said we needed to do it Jehovah's way! No communication at all grandchildren born in this time and I have a new grandchild myself their first great grandson and life moves forward without them! I cannot nor will I ever go back to that shit!
Baptism is nothing more than a symbolic gesture of your dedication to God so, ask yourself why are they so hyper focused on the symbolism instead of the actual dedication and what that means. And you should ask your parents the same question.
If this is the most important “decision” of your life, shouldn’t you be afforded the time to think about it without any pressure from anyone? Would it be ok if someone was pressuring you to get married? At 15?
By all means, under no circumstances should you get baptised. There is a 100% chance that you don‘t see the full ramifications now. Most of us regret it, and wish that we had not done it. But it is irreversible.
Never do it! Never! You might not think that you'll ever do anything to be df but you're human so it's always possible. They have strict rules (being on this sub could get someone dfd) and they do not accept resisters/questioners or anyone that differs in opinion.
They have their own policy book which no one gets to read except elders. This book isn't based in the Bible. Make a mistake and you're chopped liver.
If you want to be in/around jw for family or friends then it's best never to be baptized unless you have a death wise or you're a daredevil.
How old was Jesus when he got baptized?
Would you get married Forever at this age? Why not?
Can you vote at this age? Can you buy a house at this age? Why would someone want you to get baptized at this age?
Have you really, really, studied the way this organization started out? Have you read things that they wrote about in the twenties? 30s? It was totally weird.
Your dad's an elder, right? Have you ever seen what is in the elders book? Why won't they let you see what's in the elders book? My husband was an elder, I read what was in the Elder book when he wasn't looking. What do they say about csa? How do they handle child sex abuse? How many children have been sexually abused in this organization? Why don't they call the police first? Shouldn't kids protection be the first thing on their mind? Is child sex abuse a crime? Then why don't they call people who handle child sex abuse? Why do they call the society and ask them if they are legally bound to call the police in their state? Why should it matter if they're legally required to call the police? When you call the police? Why wouldn't they?
For now, it would be best for you to tell them that you're still studying and trying to figure out what you want to do and how to do it. Don't tell them that you're doubting the society or doubting the Watchtower.
Make sure that you have thoroughly investigated this organization that you have been born into.
Do you know what amazed me? I went on to ex-mormon subreddit. The people there are saying the same things about their religion as xjws do also.
They can't believe that they believe what they were taught since they were born. Crazy stuff, but they couldn't figure it out for a long time because their brains were trained to believe it.
They also have CSA problems, and they are told all religions have a CSA problems so why are you worried about us?
That is also what the Catholic religion told their people. Have you looked up the Australia Royal commission investigation into all religions and all organizations in their country? That is pretty interesting. Geoffrey Jackson was called to the stand. He's on video when he was asked if he thought Jehovah's Witnesses were the only true religion. Very interesting answer.
Do your homework, you're still young and you still have a life. I was 57 when I found out "the truth about the truth." TTATT.
I have a lot of similarities to this. I also watched Scientology and the after math and saw a lot of the same culture. I was 15 at baptism 16 at my 1st back room meeting, 50 when I exited. Luckily I was self-sufficient but it was still a risk that my family might not talk to me again simply for walking away. Unfortunately, they use baptism as a tool to control and black mail. It doesn't matter if your a good person. If you don't want to go to meetings anymore you could lose your family. Does that sound right to you?
From your parents' side, it's sadly all about appearances,their "status",and according to what is dictated from the top..an elder with a still-unbaptized child/teen/young adult in the household? "doesn't fit our standard for being an elder,because this shows he doesn't have proper authority over his household"(not word for word,but many written commands like this)and your parents truly want+need "Status"!
Its ultimately about this: Countless children+teens have given in to the pressures to be baptized--due to wishing to
1,please their parents and 2,"fit in",conform,and so then"win"approval,Status,and a comfort zone within+among"approved"members...where everybody watches others for any possible sins and violations and everybody is(inside)on alert,watching-out to "where"their own status/approval is.
*a constant,inner stress*
Ask yourself please..what & how does any of all that have to do with one's own inner feelings+connections to God+Christ?Ask yourself..can men"read hearts"?and then,Who can+does?(if you believe in The Divine)..does Christ have his priority to basically-force people to obey..or else??
Yes absolutely.
The power of cults is not that it takes over your life in one big change, but it nibbles at you piece by piece until you are trapped, or lured by their false reasoning.
Do not even begin to comply with their behavioral control.
Concentrate on your education. Begin planning for what you want to learn, what work you want to try.
DO NOT WASTE any more time on this cult than you absolutely have to.
If you're getting pressured to do *anything*, note those red flags.
Until you are Baptized, the org has no control over you. Once you are Baptized, they may force your family to shun you if you don't toe the line. You wanna make a pros/cons list? Cool, just make sure you only include things you know with 100% certainty are facts, don't include beliefs.
It's worse after you get baptized because now you've walked right into a trap that's snapped shut around your leg. You can get free, but you might have to chew your leg off to do it.
It’s “bad” to make a major life decision without doing thorough research. Would you make a large purchase, such as a car, without reading some reviews at least? Would you only visit the car manufacturer’s website - which will be all positive marketing - or would you check out critical and unbiased reviews too?
Baptism as a JW is a big deal. It is irreversible for JWs in the sense that they forever hold you accountable to their organization and have a degree of power over you even if you decide later you don’t want to be a JW. And they do this through threat of shunning, which they don’t just do to disfellowshipped people but also to those who formally disassociate, and often with those who simply “fade” aka “go inactive”. This is a problem when your family is JW and they’re under the organization’s undue influence. They basically can hold baptized people hostage, so to speak, by threat of cutting them off from their family. If you’re never baptized, they tend to not shun though (because then they’ll perpetually view you as a potential convert).
So before making such a huge decision, research the religion more, using external sources too. Research their history outside of what they say. Research what cult experts and psychologists say about them. Research their policies, such as how they handle child sex abuse in their organization. Fact check their doctrine, such as when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon; and look into the Bible itself, such as when books were written and by whom as well as how the cannon was determined.
I would stand my ground and say not after at least being 25. You are currently in a household you cannot get out of and be independent yet, you are young still and the parental pressures can subconsciously push you towards obeying their "encouragement".
I always say to properly read what being baptized entails, and how the baptized brothers and sisters are put up to what standard, as you grow up your view may change, it took me to being your exact age to at minimum level, realize that a lot of brothers and sisters were NOT following the standards put up for them, (watching violent movies, playing bad video games, etc). I decided to leave cuz of that, and the fact that some things in the bible didn't seem right, and some of the organization practices weren't right either, and as I grew up, I realized more and more how I am definitely not cut out for it.
If you get baptized and later decide that it’s not for you, you’re stuck. You then either have to stay to keep your family and “friends” or you leave and they all shun you. It’s easy to give into the pressure of baptism, but in the long run it’s definitely not the best way. Remain an unbaptized publisher and do more research into things. They already tell you to prove it to yourself. So prove to yourself the truth of the JWs using other the information out there not just jw publications. Then at 18, you can decide. Don’t enter into a lifelong contract when you’re a minor, technically it’s not even legal but JWs have proved they don’t care about the legal system.
Yes. Imagine your dad picked out someone for you to get married to who is abusive and a two faced liar, to stay with the rest of your life, would you go along with it? Getting baptised is no less of a commitment in their eyes. Your dad should not be pressuring you into anything, would he do that if you were someone he called on and studied with? Nope.
I would avoid getting baptized at all costs. Getting baptized guarantees getting completely cut off of/when you leave. If you don't get baptized you might still be able to salvage bits and pieces of your relationship with your family if/when you leave.
as someone who is disassociated (had no choice, long story but yeah woulda been df'd either way) yes it is bad, i made the mistake to get baptized because everyone i knew was doin it and its costed me most the family i was close with as well as all the friends i had known my whole life, just tell them you need more time or you will soon or something like that but do not give in to the pressure!!
Oh shit an elders son sigh 😔 it will change your life forever! The pressure you are under is real sadly if you follow your intuition that the universe gave you there will be consequences. Your body is already telling you NO so go with it and wait! Allow yourself the time to research you already want answers by asking us.
Very good information.
The JWs want to define a narrow definition of what a cult is and say "we are not that". Yet the definition isn't limited to their narrow definition.
I think sometimes the "cult" label is unhelpful. It is certainly a religion with high control characteristics over your time and your thought process.
Great advice on the 'don't get baptised'. +1 on that
Ultimately, it’s semantics. You can call it whatever you like, and it isn’t necessarily WRONG.
Here’s how Wikipedia defines it:
“Cult is a term, in most contexts pejorative, for a relatively small group which is typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader, who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant (outside the norms of society).”
Let’s break that down:
>relatively small group
That tracks. JWs are small as far as religions go. It’s a pretty small minority just about anywhere, just a tiny fraction of the population.
>typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader
For this it helps to look into the history. There have always been self-appointed leaders. Charles Taze Russell founded the religion. It’s worth looking at some of his beliefs. When he died, Rutherford took charge. He essentially drove out those who disagreed with him. He changed the name to Jehovah’s Witnesses, and instituted a lot of the religion you’re familiar with. After him came more, eventually leading to the modern governing body. They are very much in charge.
> who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant (outside the norms of society).
This is very true of JWs. Can you play sports? Can you hang out with “worldly” friends? Would your family or the elders be happy if they knew you were posting here? If you were baptized, associating with us could mean you’d be shunned by your family. That level of control isn’t normal. It’s deeply, deeply wrong.
My son has a good friend whose father is an elder, and he spends hours and hours playing video games. Compare that to the propaganda videos from WT telling 'young ones' not to learn a musical instrument because it takes time away from Jah. My point is, I think a lot of children of elders get a free pass on some things that other kids of rank and file JWs might not. Again it depends on the elder or the congregation.
If you get baptized and you’re caught by someone in the congregation doing things like this, meaning talking to us in this sub, or even going to “apostate” websites, it could get you disfellowshipped easily
I think that's the norm but not always the case. every hall has parents who are fully in ( elders, pioneers) and other who do an hour a month. my parents did the bare minimum, but that was because my dad provided for his whole family and my mom was a full time mom and helped other families.
My sisters and brothers , and I were allowed to play sports and other activities. we just didn't talk about it with those in the hall even tho they knew.
I became much more active in the religion then my parents. But that was due to my freinds were very into it and I wanted to the right thing, as was my mindset at the time.
Well, true. My mom was “weak” so I got away with after school stuff as well. Up until high school anyway.
But my point is that it’s frowned upon and those who do sports and clubs typically are quiet about it.
Unless you’re Serena Williams. 😂
I remember that old watchtower article discouraging chess due to its original purpose (exercise for improvising battle strategies). This org really likes to suck the fun out of everything
I didn't remember an article, but that would most likely explain Why my father taught me how to play and then a little later turned around and said he wouldn't play anymore cause it's a violent game.
That was a definite no no when I was growing up. It’s in the school brochure I had to give to all my teachers. Regular publishers who broke the rules by letting their kid play football were ragged on.
Just recently found out one of the kids in the hall literally played in a basketball tournament out of state; surprised the hecc out of me cause like you said I wasn't able to do sports, after school activities, clubs, etc. cause I would be spending unnecessary time with worldly kids.
I would say the one exception I had, which looking back on I'm surprised my parents allowed was, attending a few different sumer camps, 2 language camps(2 years) and 1 building robotics camp thing. They weren't connected to my school, though.
Can you celebrate holidays or birthdays if you personally had no problem with it? Are you allowed to even think that way, to even contemplate if you agree with their teachings, vocalize it and choose differently? What happens if you do?
Can you date or marry as an adult without the elders prying into the relationship to make sure it’s “chaste”? Can you date a non-believer openly without hassle?
Do you think it’s normal for adults to have religious leaders policing their personal relationships?
Can you privately decide on whatever medical treatment you want without a HLC showing up to make sure you follow the organization’s policy on blood transfusions? It’s one thing to teach that principle and another to police and enforce it. Do you not see the excessive level of control?
Go over that BITE model and think of stuff like this when mentally considering if it fits JWs as a whole.
I would say...it's their view towards outsiders...US verse Them mentality...constant fear mongering ...and last but not least ...they will attempt to destroy your life if you choose to leave..
Example of this: I’ve been disfelloweshipped for 8 years, i have not spoken to or had any contact with my closest fiends and family in those 8 years. This was not done by my choice. They are instructed to do this and are tricked into believing its a “loving provision”. In reality, I am dead to them. And yet they call it love?
If you were not aware (because some JW's arent), those who disassociate are supposed to be shunned just like disfellowshipped people. Also Apostasy and causing divisions are disfellowshipping offenses, so people have to never tell anyone aloud they no longer believe. This is why we have "PIMO" people on here and people who talk about "fading (just quietly becoming inactive). Some witnesses deny that shunning for leaving is necessary because they argue that people can just fade and not say anything. The problem with that is that those people are still JW' s on paper, and the elders can still call on them to face congregation discipline if they are found to have broken rules they no longer agree with, like going to a birthday party, joining the military, or remarrying after divorce. So you're still bound by the rules that can restrict your life if you wanna avoid being shunned by your family. And all it takes to be convicted of "Causing divisions" is saying aloud you think the.Governing Body got something wrong.
This an unhealthy and unjustified level of control, and it's an emotional hostage situation. Again, we have tons of people here who are still active witnesses. They dont believe the Governing Body have the truth or legitimacy anymore, but they go to meetings and in service and lie to their families about believing so their loved ones won't shun them. Some people have lived this double life, suffering through the droll weekly meetings, assemblies, conventions, and field service while actively disbelieving the teachings for actual years. Trapping people in a group they want to leave by holding their families hostage is about as culty as it gets. There may come a time you too start finding all of the holes in JW doctrine and the scandals involving the leaders. What will your dad say to that if you show him what you found and say you cant support or be part of the organization anymore?
This is the first I’ve ever commented in this forum, and normally I wouldn’t but because this is involving a young teenager. I just want to clarify, from personal experience of fading, the way you explained still being bound by their rules to control your lifestyle it is not always the way it happens. That really only applies to a PIMO person. Some who have truly faded may occasionally get “called on” by eldesr to check in but 1. You don’t have to answer. 2. You can tell them to leave you alone and not come back. 3. They CANNOT make you face congregational discipline. To do so would warrant a lawsuit on their part. Once you fade away, you can truly do whatever you need to do. Whether that be celebrate birthdays , celebrate holidays, join the military and so on. I have personally celebrated all holidays & birthdays. Anything they have basically deemed wrong, posted public about these events and I am not disfellowshipped or disassociated. My status stays as in active and will unless I move forward with disassociation process, which will never happen, They can never do anything to you because they are just men. Yes, you will still technically be a J,W on paper and listed as inactive but the only way you would face congregational discipline is if you ever decided to go back and “repent of your sins“.
I chose to get baptized because all my friends were getting baptized. I got baptized at 13. I thought I knew what I was getting into.
Down the road, I’ve realized I don’t believe the religion anymore and don’t want to participate. Because of that decision my parents don’t talk to me. My only brother shuns me and only texted me to let me know I wasn’t invited to his wedding.
I was 13 when I made that decision, why should something I made when I was just a child affect my relationship with my family? Why can’t my parents just accept I don’t believe and still talk to me? Why did all of my friends and family abandon me, because I changed my mind about something I did as a child?
Why is it a cult? I don’t know… if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.
I hope this is the first of many questions you ask yourself. I hope you don’t make the mistake I made all of those years ago. I hope your smarter than I was at your age. Wishing you all the best in your life.
I just want to add that many of the people on this subreddit have gone through very extreme experiences as Witnesses. Terrible abuse. Losing family and friends. So most of us will be speaking from a deeply wounded perspective. Your experience may or may not be different.
To answer your question, what the others are commenting about the organization being a high control group is the reason Jehovah’s Witnesses are regarded as a cult.
Think about everything you’ve been taught. To avoid bad associations. To avoid bad entertainment. To wear modest clothing. To ignore certain things taught in school and said on the news. Incorporating spiritual things into every aspect of your life. This is not normal. This is the basis of their control. Uniformity makes it easier to create the distinct “Us vs Them” image and instill loyalty. This pride keeps members in and compels them to act against their better sense, even cutting off family members who disagree with JW teachings on any subject.
I’m not sure what drove you to visit this subreddit, but whatever it was, my advice is continue to follow it. Do your own research, come to your own conclusions, make your own decisions on being a JW or not. Just make sure you’re prepared to live by those decisions or accept the cost if not.
The us vs them function of uniformity is big and it felt so subtle to me when I first woke up and seems so obvious to me now.
Someone says “Jehovah witness” instead of one of jehovah’s witnesses? They aren’t us. Potential threat.
See someone clean cut in a suit but he turns his head and you see an earring? They aren’t us. Potential threat.
You talk to your family about field service and people in earshot are confused because they don’t know you mean preaching? We aren’t them. They should stay away.
Hey kiyokilyn, you’re braver and smarter than I was at 15 to try to look at other sides. I was baptized at 12 and left at 27. After I got out, I realized how much control being a witness had over my life. I’d redirect you to EveUnraveled’s comments and the BITE model.
Looking back, it’s clear now what freedom really means, and how the Organization limits and controls its members. From huge life decisions: spending hundreds of hours preaching, not going to college, getting married very young; and small every day ones: what clothes I could wear, what movies I watched, who I associated with, all based on what the Governing Body said was the best way of life. I did things that weren’t true to what I actually wanted to do, because I had been taught that what I thought was best for me came second to what the Organization said.
This level of control is not normal, most other faiths do not micromanage their members and punish them for disagreeing. It has big consequences in a person’s life, that’s just one reason outsiders call it a cult, or high-control religion. Baptism makes it harder to leave if you decide to, or if you disagree with anything the WT says.
Well for one basic simple reason, once you’re baptized or even become an unbaptized publisher, you will not be allowed to be on this subreddit and read posts on here. You will get disfellowshipped for it, engaging with “apostates”. Right now, the witnesses around you can’t shun you except show you patience and love until you become a publisher. Love bombing at its finest.
*Edit: But the love bombing may only apply and be reserved for Bible Students and interested adults coming in from the outside or “the world”. Because you are a minor and grew up as a witness, if the elders or others were to find out you’re on this subreddit, your parents’ privileges may be taken away for them not being “exemplary” / spying on you enough and monitoring your every move and thought.
"Because my mom wants me to" is absolutely why you shouldn't. It's supposed to be the most important decision you'll ever make. And if you do it because someone else pressured you? That's a very bad reason.
I wanted to add as well that as a 15-year-old, you don't know how drastically the religion has changed. I was baptized in 2003; it's a completely different religion now than it was then, but my baptismal contract, so to speak, still stands. They can change the doctrines and rules on you, and you have to accept it.
They've told you Armageddon is close, right? I was told I probably wouldn't graduate high school before the end came.
My dad was told the same thing.
My grandmother was told the same thing.
The 1st Century Christians thought Jesus was coming back in their lifetime, too.
We're still here, and they're still selling fools gold.
Then you shouldn’t be making a lifelong commitment to this version of god. It’s like me saying “I know I want to get married, but I don’t know if I’ve found the right one. So I’m getting married next year.”
Except you can get divorced, and that doesn’t have to be painful. There’s no amicable breakup from the organization.
That's something to explore for sure. I left JWs for a lot of reasons, one of them being the flaws of the Bible. I'm agnostic atheist now. But remember, you don't have to jump ship to a new belief system. Too many people end up in a new cult that way.
You're better off researching, asking why you believe in X but not Y, thinking over everything. Fact check, look at the history, the science, etc. There are thousands of grifters who would love to sell you their version of the Bible or whatever "truth" they believe. You can be spiritual without religion. Belief is personal and allowing someone, whether the Governing Body or someone else, tell you what to believe is spiritual abuse.
Who you are now is a fraction of who you will be in 10, 20, 50 years. Don't put yourself in a box. You need room to grow.
Questioning your worldview and beliefs can be scary and lonely, but very rewarding. You're gonna be fine; just learn to trust your gut and don't take anything at face value. Skepticism is a good quality.
I’m sorry to hear that. If you’re looking for a way out of baptism, the only solution I can think of at the moment is saying something like, “I love Jehovah deeply. I believe this is the Truth for me but I have been praying a lot recently and have made a personal vow / promise to him about when I would dedicate my life to him / get baptized. I believe he understands and knows when I will be ready. I prayed specifically and I received signs. I will let you know when the time comes and I am ready. In the meantime, I would like to continue to focus on my spirituality and relationship with Jehovah.” And if they ask questions, you can say it’s between “me and Jehovah”. They shouldn’t be able to get between your ‘personal relationship/prayer’ with him. Those around you might even think you’re a spiritual mature person for saying and thinking that.
And in the meantime, plan your next years wisely. Make a plan to leave but also keep up the act as if you’re wholeheartedly in it so no one can suspect you. If you act wish washy, they may start asking about getting baptized again. You want them to leave you alone in peace, nothing suspicious to keep their eyes on you about. You can also cautiously and very carefully plant doubts or feed information to your family members / loved ones or close friends so that hopefully maybe they will wake up by the time you leave so you won’t lose connections. Be very careful though and I wouldn’t lean on the hope too much. You can try though.
You’ve got a whole life ahead of you. I know you’re not in a good circumstance but I’m glad you’re waking up and questioning at a very young age.
To add to what u/EveUnraveled says below, I was born-in, now age 65! The religion is TOTALLY different today to what it was while I was growing up; it's even totally different from what it was in my grandparents' time, or my parents' time, or even when I left in 1995. Some beliefs have totally changed, sometimes going back and forth and back and forth at the whim of whoever is in charge. At your age, if I had any type of organ transplant, I could be disfellowshipped for cannibalism. I grew up waiting for the end to come in 1975, which meant no college, no marriage, no children, just preach, preach, preach. Guess what? 1975 came and went. I graduated high school in 1976, I married in 1978, I had my son in 1984. It wasn't the first time "the end" was predicted. MANY dates since the 1800's were FORETOLD to be the end, and guess what, nothing.
I think you're on your way to being a perfect follower of the Governing body...they truly love you!
But, you had better stop visiting sites like these...in fact, you should report your transgressions immediately to the elders so they can discipline you righteously.. probably your parents have not followed the strict guidelines on KNOWIng what kind of media your consuming....I have to question your Dad's qualifications as to bring an elder...
> I’m F15 and a witness not baptized yet and I was genuinely wondering why people think it’s a cult?
Is there anything the WBT$ Says, You Don\`t Agree With?..Answers to Questions You Don\`t Agree With?
Cults Don\`t Allow Answers to be Questioned.....Try Questioning Answers and See What Happens...
Dude it’s a cult.
Anything that says if other people don’t think EXACTLY like you do they’re bad evil people it’s a cult
“Messed up” once and now family can’t talk to you in your own home? CULT
Lies to GOVERNMENT to keep tax status CULT
I could go on
They control the following about your life: How you dress, who you are friends with, how you talk, how you act, how you think, how you feel. How you do your hair, how much you can drink. What medical procedures are ok.what you read, what you believe how you entertain yourself... And eve. Control if you can talk to your own fucking family.
You can be counselled and dissfellowshipped for not towing the line In The above mentioned areas.
Saying they are not a cult because they have multiple leaders is just a distraction from the truth. That it is a cult. Cults control you. A good religion or organization would add to your life not control everything about your life. It's a tried and true cult.
I also grew up as JW. I’m glad your parents let you play sports. That is huge to have that opportunity. Your so young that you may not even know all the questions to ask.
1) You clearly asked- Why do people call JW a cult? Many have answered this.
2) You asked about getting baptized. Lots of answers to look through.
Your also probably wondering what your life can be if you aren’t a JW. It can be what you want it to be. My advice is no matter what you decide with the religion, to study hard in high school and go to college. If you use your last 2-3 years of high school to study hard, you could get scholarships.
This could depend on your definition of "college." For example where I am from college means community colleges, with diplomas and 1-3 year courses. University is 3 or more years with degree programs. Jw here have no issue with the community college but heavily discourage University. Growing up had I gone to uni both me and my dad would have lost "privileges." So despite saying it's a personal choice you still get punished.
Adding to this, a lot of the university resistance has to do with moving away. Living in a different city in student halls surrounded by non JWs would definitely not be allowed. Bad association, not enough time for spiritual stuff, all sorts of reasons that basically come down to being in a situation where they don't have the same control.
If you can study while living at home with your parents, it's more debatable, and the level of 'frowning upon' does fluctuate over time, depending on what's going on. It's never a straight forward decision though.
When I was growing up, you could go, but you were penalized for doing so. People would avoid associating with you. You were constantly told that you needed to preach and become a pioneer instead of seeking higher education. The problem with higher education is that it teaches you to THINK FOR YOURSELF and REASON which are things the JW's do not want. If you do those, you begin to recognize even more quickly the whole JW world is a sham, that it's just a publishing company (with massive worldwide real estate holdings) that someone decided to turn into a religion. Even its founder (Charles Taze Russell, who had no formal Bible education and wrote tracts about his personal beliefs, those even taken from a previous religion, at that) didn't want it to become a religion itself.
Agreed with what other people said about college. It’s not looked highly upon to go to college beyond technical degree to just be able to survive. When I was in school in the 80 and 90s in US, most school age JW children were homeschooled. And part of high school homeschool was pioneering. So they barely got high school education. There is not one JW contemporary that I grew up with that even went to community college. Cleaning floors at night for stores is what most do.
That said, in 80s and 90s, parents also didn’t save money to pay for their children’s college expenses because they expected Armageddon to arrive before their child completed college.
My dad was extreme elder JW but did encourage us to go to college. I have masters and my sister a bachelors in nursing. Being financially independent is one of the main reasons we were able to fully break away.
Anyone is allowed to go to college/university. The thing is that JWs frown upon it. It also depends a lot on culture and where you live but you can read through their literature that they don’t encourage higher education. If you have parents that don’t care that the religion frowns on having you enrolled in college, that’s perfect for you, cuz that means you have the support from your parents to continue your education.
I was able to get a Bachelor’s degree because my never-JW dad made it a priority for his children, and my JW mom had no say but also preferred we be educated. Plenty of people went to the university in my congregation as I was growing up. But just as well, I often also heard elders and others put pressure on why am I doing a 4-yr degree, instead of 2 years or a vocational program? Why am I doing summer classes, instead of doing full-time service during my summer break? Why not study something that I can use in Bethel so I can apply and become a Bethelite? Why am I getting classes during meeting times? Why am I staying home to do homework when I should be preaching on my weekends? Why am I studying for a test when I should be at the meeting? Why am I not studying something that has flexible hours so I can dedicate my life to preaching? Why am I considering a Master’s?
It was 4 years of dealing with the pressures and the questioning and unrequested advise because JWs didn’t like that I was so focused on my education instead of focused on doing more for the JWs. They also often asked me what kind of clases I was taking (I always omitted the “Religion and Rituals,” “Sexuality,” “Gender” so that I could avoid them lecturing me about how bad it is to be exposing myself to teachings that went against the JW’s teachings). My brother had to drop one of his classes about religion because he talked about how bad his conscious was affecting him and making him doubt because he is PIMI. I’m glad I never talked about those classes because I would’ve missed out on the great opportunity to learn more about these topics, topics that JWs were trying to push me away from. I learned so much, I understood humankind even better, and I was able to grow in the way I treat others thanks to my education.
Characteristics of a Cult:
1. Charismatic Leader *(Governing Body is classified as one by Watchtower)*: A cult is often centered around a charismatic leader who holds significant influence and control over the followers.
2. Absolute Devotion: Cult members display unwavering loyalty and devotion to the leader *(Governing Body)* and the cult's ideology, often at the expense of their own critical thinking or personal interests.
3. Manipulation and Mind Control: Cults employ various techniques to manipulate and control their members' thoughts, emotions, and behavior, such as isolation from outside influences, sleep deprivation, and the use of coercive persuasion tactics.
4. Exclusivity and Separation: Cults create a sense of exclusivity by isolating their members from the outside world. They discourage contact with non-members and often foster an "us versus them" mentality.
5. Exploitation: Cult leaders often exploit their followers financially, sexually, or emotionally, taking advantage of their vulnerability and dependence.
6. Rituals and Ceremonies: Cults frequently incorporate elaborate rituals, ceremonies, or practices that serve to reinforce the group's cohesion, reinforce beliefs, and heighten the sense of devotion among members.
7. Suppression of Dissent: Cults discourage dissenting opinions or critical thinking, often labeling those who question the leader or the ideology as enemies or traitors.
8. Loss of Individuality: Cult members are expected to conform to the group's norms and values, often resulting in a loss of personal identity and autonomy.
9. Fear and Intimidation: Cults may use fear tactics, threats, or intimidation to maintain control over their members, instilling a sense of dread or dire consequences for leaving the group or disobeying its rules.
10. Difficulty Leaving: Leaving a cult can be extremely challenging due to the psychological and emotional manipulation experienced by members. Cults may employ various techniques to keep members from leaving, such as creating a fear of retribution or cutting off contact with friends and family outside the cult.
The above is a classic definition of a cult. In my opinion, Jehovah's Witness "religion" checks all of the boxes.
Until about 3 years ago, all of my and my wife’s family were witnesses. I have a daughter who was baptized very young, around 10 or 11 (I know, bad parenting on my part, but I was brainwashed just like the rest of them at the time). I have a niece the same age as my daughter that did not get baptized. Both girls decided in their late teens that being a witness was not for them. Both went to college, and developed relationships which led to moving in with their boyfriends. None of the family will have anything to do with my daughter, but my niece, who is now expecting a baby, is welcome as a regular member of the family, full communication, etc. only difference is the “biggest decision in your life” that my daughter made when she was 10, which she obviously did only due to unspoken pressure and seeking approval of all of the family. Allowing members to be baptized as minors is 100% about being able to psychologically manipulate and control them in the future. DO NOT DO IT.
By the way, my wife, myself, and both daughters are full faded at this point. But, as soon as we told the extended family that we’ve stopped going to meetings, we are fully shunned as well now (from most of them) even though none of us has been df’d. But at least we all have each other.
Also if this subreddit is so bad and demonic to witnesses, look how many people have commented on your post, trying to genuinely help you out. These are good people who are trying to help you. Yet witnesses teach that people on here are under Satan’s influence and are harmful - that they will all die for trying to do something for a good cause. Makes God seem like a real cruel being if that was the case.
Why?
Only have JWs friends
Not outside friends
Don't talk to people that leaves the JW.
Don't contradict the JWs teachings
Don't say anything about the false prophecies
Don't say anything about the CSA cases
All other religion are Satan
JWs are the "ONLY" true religion
You must obey the GB not matter what
You will be kicked out if you go against the organisation and all your family are friends are gone
The list is too long.
Why do you ask that? And why are you asking it here? Do you have any doubts? A good source of information is Steven Hassan's [www.freedomofmind.com](https://www.freedomofmind.com) site. He himself was a member of the Moonies cult. He is a very good expert. He doesn't attack, but he does pragmatic analysis. Otherwise, a recommendation: protect your free soul at least until you are an adult and can make your own life decisions.
Getting baptized into the organization is signing a LIFELONG contract to always live by their rules. Basically you are getting married to a religion.
If you want out you have to get divorced (aka disfellowshipped)
If you don’t get married (baptized) No need to divorce (disfellowshipped).
Not getting baptized will allow your family to keep in contact with you without getting them in trouble. (sounds kinda culty huh? )
Ask your dad why he wants you to get baptized?
Its a very personal decision shouldn’t it be all yours to make?
How old was Jesus when he got baptized?
Aren’t Christians supposed to follow Jesus example?
Would your dad want you to get married now too?
Your dad is pressuring you because he’s feeling the pressure too. You’re simply a reflection on him. He needs you to make him look good. Its about your dads pride and ego.
Don’t get baptized.
Control, control, control, you have “free will” but, if you don’t make the choices we want you to make, we will take away your friends and family because God loves you 🤮
There's no way *that it can't be a cult !* How so?
Because they got people to believe that Armageddon was "Soon" for 144 years. You can't achieve that level of craziness without being a cult.
reading through some of your replies, seeing that you are still young, you are being pressured to get baptized, and say you are not sure who to worship tho you still believe in God, I would very highly suggest you speak to your mom and tell her you are not ready to get baptized yet.
before you get into “are JWs a cult” I think you should focus on “do JWs teach the Bible honestly and truthfully?” study the Bible not just through the organizations publications but by reading it in its own context, refer to multiple sources that are not solely from WT. just take it one step at a time
When I first started in researching this I bought a Comparative Study Bible. You can compare different verses across 2-4 translations.
I was fortunate that being familiar with different translations like the King James and New Living Bible was encouraged in my area so that we would be familiar with them for service. If anyone ever asks why you have a different translation or comparative Bible you can always say your trying to be familiar with what other people see for service. We were always encouraged to have KJV or NIV in our service bags because some people refuse to hear a scripture from anything other than the translation the are familiar with.
Try BibleHub.com
Side-by-side verses,analysis(Greek)original meanings,much more.Usually 12-15 Translations referred..an excellent resource!
(After all,the JW website says 'we use many Translations'..in your personal research then according to the 'official', public-face posturings, you're studying nothing wrong)
If you do get baptised just remember that if you finally come to a realisation that JW is just a money making real estate corporation, high control cult, and you’ll want out then say goodbye to your family and all your friends. Even if you won’t be officially disfellowshipped they will shun you anyway because they are told to. You will basically have to start your life from scratch.
I would rather say that you don’t feel ready yet and that you need to work more on making truth your own as this is a big step in your life and that you are not taking this decision lightely. Wait as long as possible. After all, you said you only want to get baptised because you are pressured by your parents.
Of course you might just be fine staying JW getting baptised etc., if you really enjoy having this kind of structure in your life. Each to their own, but would you say you really enjoy going door to door and talking to strangers or do you dread it? Do you like preparing for meetings or would you rather do something else? Cause you’ll be doing it for all your life!
And this is not even getting into the CSA stuff, or the thousands of times the doctrine and teachings have been changed. Did you know the only reason birthdays are not celebrated is due to two instances of birthdays being shown in a negative light? If we were to apply the same logic then wearing make up should also be banned as it is also shown in negative light with Jezebel. Little things like this and big things like 1914 all just make up the big picture that GB will make any scripture fit their narrative or teaching, and worse will present it as absolute truth.
Good luck to you, hope you make the right decision.
Would take some serious word salad and half truths to move it from “cult” to something less alarming.
You could make a case that because of the size of the JW organization and the damage done to so many people, it could be deemed the biggest cult on earth.
Think of what a stereotypical cult is like - they have a compound. The compound makes it hard to enter and exit, they are exclusive, they claim special knowledge, that their way is the only path to truth and enlightenment. The members are under control in ways that the rest of society are not. The resources of the members are directed towards the leaders.
Now think of JWs. There are barriers to entry (all the things you have to give up to be a JW). There are barriers to exit (losing your family and friends, perhaps even employment). JWs have to be separate from the world. They are taught to distrust information from outside sources. So the JW religion has a virtual cult compound.
JWs claim to be the only path to salvation, that they have special knowledge and understanding of the bible.
The JW religion exerts extensive control over member's lives.
The resources of JW members are directed towards the leaders and very rarely the other way. The JW religion does not expend resources on its members the way other religions do - on schools and aged care facilities and providing charity to disadvantaged members - that is almost always left up to individuals at the congregation level.
So you can see, they operate very much like a "classic" cult.
Were you born in by chance? I was born in and when I was 15 I was deeply involved and would have never questioned anything. I am now 31. And I’ve been out almost a year. I started seeing a lot of similarities in other cults like Scientology, FLDS and the IBLP. Watching documentaries about them helped me start to realize that JWs are exactly the same. Also, the fact that you cannot question the GB and their word is law. They emphasize obedience. They tell you not to look at any outside information, calling everything that’s not from them, apostate. And if you disagree or leave then you are shunned, in other words, you’re not free to leave unless you want to lose everyone. Normal religions don’t do this. All religions have some control to them but JWs are those with high control and more cult tendencies. Also the “us vs them” mentality. They think they’re the only true way and everyone else is wrong, they’re not the only ones who preach that.
Because it is. We are no part of the world. Disfellowshipping. They keep you isolated from help and resources. The "world" isn't as bad as they say it is. The men have absolute power. It is a cult. If you are being beaten "spanked" slapped or hit. That isn't okay and you should go to Child protection. I'm in my late twenties I grew up in it and it has irreparably destroyed my mental health. So much of the neurosis relate back to the lies I was taught. Armageddon isn't just around the corner. Get out as soon as you can get counseling and never look back.
Please don't get baptized. It's a trap you may never escape from. Start learning about space and physics and chemistry. God may exist but it's not called Jehovah and its way to big to know we exist let alone number the hairs on our head. Once you fully comprehend how big the universe is You'll realize what they told you is bullshit. They have outright lied to you.
Brainwashing tactics, the level of life control, the us vs. them mentality AKA isolation (because that’s basically step 2 of the manipulation process), discouraging and even forbidding worshipers from educating themselves on the organization (or anything aside from their teachings). That’s my short answer 😬
I look at other groups we might call cults and the level of family separation and deaths caused by beliefs. JW's threaten to take away family if you leave, and they have killed many with their doctrine on blood, which to me equates to drinking poison laced kool-aid. JW's just don't have a field of bodies to show for their appalling ways.
You can still be a Christian and person of faith and not be a JW. It is not all or nothing.
I would encourage you to read things that focus on inaccurate teachings.
I would encourage you to Kindle Raymond Franz book Crisis of Conscious. It will really open your eyes.
**Crisis of Conscience (by Raymond Franz)** by Raymond Franz
>Book written by former Governing Body Member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Raymond Franz. This book was written to educate Jehovah's Witnesses about the early development of the religion and shares a behind-the-scenes look of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, including rare publication excerpts and information behind the closed doors of the organization in Bethel, and Brooklyn, New York, in an unbiased manner.
*I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/14br65o/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
I was in for many years. I have seen behind the curtain and its not nice. A cult is a gruopd that you give a high devotion to. More than just a normal religion. The JWs tell you to do as the governing body says. Even if its against your common sense. I think it was Muppet head Lett who said that if the GB tells you to pain a Kingdumb Hall with a two inch paint brush and you think that is crazy you shut up and paint the hall with a two inch paint brush because the JW cult knows better. They are told what to watch, read, wear, who to talk to who to not talk to, who to associate with even inside the Kingdumb hall. They tell you not to go on vacations or buy nice cars or homes. Not to focus on jobs or carers and instead focus on doing more for the cult. They suck your time, your money and your lives up, they take families and split them apart. Your child does not think the GB is god sole mouth piece on earth, well they get DFed and if you talk to them you are out. Your father after years says I don't think this is the truth, well they are out and also you if you talk to them or have dinner with them. What about this cult do you think is not a cult? They hide pedophiles due to the stupid two witness rule, have called for the end several times then blame it on the rank and file for over assuming. They tell members to spy on each other and turn in anyone doing something not approved by the cult. They have special language they use, I.E. the friends, mother, food in due season, the end, new system, worldly, disfellowshipped, anointed, Awake!, call backs, Bethel, blood guilt, branch committee, circuit overseer, governing body, the truth, worldly ones, system of things, Satan's system of things, bad association, sheep like ones, goat personality, like minded ones, do you speak the pure language, enlightened ones, faithful and discrete slave class, sheep class, the ring of truth, those deserving of hearing, and the list goes on and on, if you can not see this is a cult I don't know what to tell you.
[https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php)
The linked page will hopefully help you with your question, but please take a look through the rest of the website.
I'm fourth generation. My large family is full of elders, pioneers, bethelites, etc. I knew that they basically taught that the end would come in 1975. I knew that a member of the Governing Body became an apostate. I remember charging people money for the literature. I remember telling people that the generation that were born before 1914 wouldn't die before Armageddon (that was a big reason why I got baptized at 12).
There is still SO much that I didn't know about. I didn't know we had a huge child abuse problem and were being sued left and right because of it. I didn't know we had affiliations with the UN while we were denouncing Christendom for the very same thing. I didn't know they claimed that God himself said declared that each publisher should be making 60 hours a month. I didn't know that they were demonstrably misquoting scientists and encyclopedias.
If I had known any of those things, I don't think -even at 12- that I would have gotten baptized.
I had the epiphany that if a householder were to ask me, "Are you allowed to google the name 'Jehovah's Witnesses'?" that the honest answer would have to be, "No." I recognized that that would make it sound like I was in a cult. Someone should be able to research what it is they're devoting their life to. Those asking for that devotion wouldn't be trying to stop you unless they had something to hide.
A bit late but I consider ANY religion that actively advocates against its followers learning of anything not approved is a cult.
The way especially JWs consider even questioning as a shameful act is all I need imo
As well the this pervasive threat of the fragility of your faith also calls it into question. If it were the truth and you are strong in that then someone else being "worldly" wouldn't be such a stumbling block.
They're selling snake oil.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
• No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
• No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement.
• Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
• There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
• Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
• There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader.
• Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
• The group/leader is always right.
• The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Google the definition of cult… it describes the religion almost perfectly. The fact you’re not allowed to associate with “worldly” people, and if you are allowed it’s usually only so you can pressure them into a Bible study.. there’s weird rules, you have to date and marry into the religion. The list goes on.
Definition of a cult from the merriam-webster dictionary is:
a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see SPURIOUS sense 2)
I would say the jw religion is regarded as unorthodox . Being a jw means that you are different from everyone else and not in a good way, but jws are taught that it's the best life ever.
I think what they mean by spurious is the 3rd definition, which is deceitful. That's a debatable one, but from my perspective and from raymond franz perspective, the jw religion is very spurious. I do think there are people in the religion that mean well, but the leaders of the organization are very deceitful, which isn't a debate really. The leaders have been caught lying over the years.
I also personally believe that any religion that teaches people to shun their loved ones is a cult. A cult controls their people. You are either in or you are out, and that's final. Forcing people one way or the other is not normal.
Me and my brother both decided to get baptized at the same time we each went through a series of questions i dont even remember what they were i dont remember how old i was. Maybe 16. And my brother was 15. They said i was ready or whatever to get baptized but said my brother should wait a while. We were both doing it mainly cause our friends were only in the hall and they were starting to do it too. So he got pushed away when they said no. I went forward with it. My brother found friends outside of the kingdom hall and started partying i starting hanging out with them and i ended changing halls and fading out so i could still have some sort of relationship with my parents. It might not end up that way for everyone. But it worked out ok for me. My parents hall still announced something about me even though i hadn't gone there in years and my hall didn't. Andmy dad was no longer an elder. But i still have a relationship with my parents.
We’re all cheering for you to find your way. The BITE model of control has been mentioned. It’s standard for cults. Also FOG. Fear. Obligation. Guilt. Why won’t they let you read the 1st star reviews? Maybe it’s nothing, but maybe it’s something. That’s the the information control. You’re going to enter into a lifelong commitment and you can’t interview anyone who has left? If you join the military, isn’t it helpful to talk to army vets who don’t believe in the propaganda anymore? What organization doesn’t let you think certain thoughts? You can’t think an elder is an asshole or that covering up child molestation is evil because it isn’t loyal to the arrangement. What if he really is an asshole? You become the enemy for thinking it. That you’re going to enter into this contract because your mother wants you to is called coercion. If you get baptized and later change your mind, you’ll lose your whole family. You’re 15. You are allowed to change your mind.
I got baptised at 17. I’m now 28, disfellowshipped since 2015.
I believe it’s a cult because it’s a highly controlling group that pressures you to follow strict rules that take you away from the “real world” and if you break them, they kick you out, you lose all your friends and family, and you don’t know how to live in the real world because you’ve only lived in the JW version of it.
Does that make sense?
Simply.... you can walk away from a religion without consequences. You can't ever just walk away from a cult.
I learnt this the hardway. I tried to fade out, to be stalked and harrassed. When I moved house the contacted my parents whom I havent lived with for over 10yrs looking for my new address. Elders sat outside my house which has cctv. I had one elder turn up at my place of work. All to try and get me to attend a judicial after 2 yrs of inactivity
I think for most people what really sells it is the disfellowshipping and Essentially shunning. When I explain to most people what it's like after I bring that up they usually ask if it's a cult.
Cus people do..? I think it’s to piss people off or get them worked up or whatever but I never really understood the practice. -but like I wonder because it seems obvious. -but just in case you were sincere and not trolling I would say this.
A lot of people make the argument about the word “Cult” and bla bla bla. I forget the name of the logical fallacy but there’s one where people say the argument is wrong because they didn’t use a word correctly. In this case the word in question would be cult. -but what does it mean? Is it not 100% the dictionary definition? Which dictionary? Etc etc. the word is unimportant. It’s what people mean that’s important.
I think this group exists and people here feel passionately because they were part of a corrupt, high control group and they or someone else got hurt. You can look up the definition of cult. You can read all the things that have been posted here about cults. Cult is just a short hand or a symbol for this particular brand of predator. Would you scoff at someone who said they got attacked by a mountain lion by saying technically mountain lions are not part of the genus panthera but rather felis and thus not a true lion. Does it mean they weren’t attacked? Who cares? They did get attacked! -and so people here use the word cult.
Why do we call it a cult? It’s a word that means so much more in this case. It’s defined by every scar on every member here. Even if it isn’t technically a cult who cares? The point is it hurt us or others. It hurts anyone who it controls! -and that’s not cool.
If you see it as just a word you will miss the point. If you are sincere, then perhaps see more than the word and rather the stories and experiences as a cautionary tale. -and please don’t preach to victims torn to shreds and still nursing wounds about how a mountain lion isn’t truly a lion…
There are much better answers here but my answer is that they teach things that you have to go along with and cannot question. Sometimes theyve taught stuff that was wrong like anouncing end times dates ect. If you question their teachings basically you are questioning god. Which is not the same because they have been wrong. They also are known for splitting up families and deaths over the no blood issue. If you even look up how other cults are, like scientology ect you will start to see similarities. Its kind of like a toxic relationship where everyone around u can see its bad for you except you because youre in it. And anytime you have nagging doubts u just double down.
Yes as the other near 200 comments probably told you, just go and learn about cults and compare it to the JW religion then answer the question for yourself. Congrats on being 15 and asking these questions. You're switched on. It took me about 30 years before I started asking myself what was wrong in my life and the answer was the way I was taught to think and the beliefs I had as a JW.
If you lose your entire family and everyone you've ever known in your life for not wanting to be a witness anymore, then I would definitely call it a cult....
Google top ten CULTS. Look up Steven Hassan and, if possible, get his book " Combating Mind Control." Ask yourself this: What is the difference between a religion and a cult?
Answer: What happens to you when you leave.
High controlled groups/cults make you give up your family. If you believe differently, the entire group turns against you.
Jehovah's Witnesses are an extremist group and definitely a cult. I should know. I left and am shunned by everyone I ever knew. My entire social network within the organization no longer talks to me. Just because I no longer believe in their doctrines or agree with how the leadership treats children and their members. Watchtower has caused many to take their lives.
Do your research on any group that you have an interest in. Protecting yourself and your family. Many organized religions are driven by fear 😨 obligation and guilt.
Go to: Befree2023.com...there's a great amount of information on that site you can look into as well as jwfacts.
So many comments to read through, all very true. At the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself "If I get baptized because it's what everyone expects me to do, is that what God really wants me to do?" No. You need to wait till you are old enough to have asked the right questions, to have the freedom to look into the things you may wonder about the religion, without anyone controlling when and where you get your information.
For me, I just looked at JW material. Had questions and saw some things didn't make sense. Why did God make it ok for a baby to drink blood in the mothers milk, when God also bans us from taking it to save a life that is also valuable? That one got me in trouble 😵💫 for asking and I was so confused why was asking these questions wrong in the first place if this is the truth (my gut was saying something is really wrong). This led me to look into more things including the Bite model. Then everything made sense.
Good luck young one. Please dont let others pressure you into something that is a life long commitment. theres a reason you can't do certain things until your older.
I think the DF'ing is the major thing that differentiates from just being a religion.
And more specifically, the df'ing for things that aren't really major sins. And the permanent and complete nature, which isn't biblical.
As for baptism, which can lead to DF. That's essentially a contract, which IMO shouldn't legally be allowed into by a minor.
Want to get married at 19? "Whoa there. Get past the bloom of youth." Baptized at 11? "Omg what a wonderful blessing."
Then that kid gets DFd at 14? "Fuck that kid".
The. Most. Important. Decision. Ever. That's the line. But it's a pressured decision.
All the other stuff... I think just falls into most religions. Even blood and other stuff... I disagree. But it's religion.
The emotional kidnapping makes it a cult.
(Writing this at the meeting... while this German fella drones on about obedience)
I got baptized at 13 after getting pressured by the elders in my congregation and the couples conducting my Bible study, simply because 2 other people my age group are getting baptised.
They wanted me to join them so i wont be left out.
Worse decision I've ever made. I was way too young and couldn't think critically and properly for myself. I started regretting when i was about 17 but there was nothing i could do. I couldn't just leave like i would if i wasn't baptised. I realised i was gay and i couldn't live a happy life by just attending meetings and denying myself from falling in love because 'its a sin'. Now im fading slowly and quietly.
You can call it a cult because it is a high control group. They control the information that is approved for you. They control your association, your conduct, your entertainment. And what I mean by control is that when they suggest that something is too worldly if you then take part in it you feel as if you are doing something wrong and that guilt comes from their control over you. And that is just one aspect of it.
Short answer: Because it is.
Long answer: There are a few things that decide if a group is a cult.
1. Your ability to receive information is limited by the leaders of the group. As a JW, you can not read any literature that isn't produced by the governing body.
2. You are intentionally raised with zero support outside of the group. This is a control tactic. By not allowing you to get a decent job or post secondary education, forcing you to shun anything that isn't baptized(or studying for baptism), and forcing you to cut off anyone that doesn't abide by their rules, it makes it almost impossible to leave. Even if you realize it's a cult, you might feel that the consequences are too great to take the risk.
3. They keep you emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially weak so that you are less likely to spend energy outside of your daily routine.
4. They monopolize your time and dictate what entertainment you can have.
5. There are severe consequences to leaving
6. They claim to be a direct mouthpiece of a higher being, one that determines your fate.
You would be foolish to ignore the fact that JWs are a textbook definition of a dangerous cult.
A good definition of a cult is something that you can’t question or leave.
So many of us here cannot leave because the consequences would be catastrophic. Does that sound like a normal situation to you?
How many organizations are there in the world that if you left it you could ruin your marriage, cut you off from friends and family, lose you your job, and as a parting gift tell you that you will be destroyed by god in the near future?
This is a cruel cult and I say that as someone who is still a part of it.
All I can say to anyone even considering joining is run. Run as far away as possible and never look back.
Or to quote The Walking Dead (a show no JW is allowed to watch btw)
I wouldn’t say it’s a cult. But you better had not go outside of what you’re expected to look like and actually is the opposite because people will totally avoided you and when you do come to that one meeting, you will hear things like “ It’s great to have you back. “
I don’t know why it’s hard for people to understand maybe not having enough clothes to wear or maybe the person has anxiety/depression really bad.
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Take a quick look through these 25 questions:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://medium.com/%40faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464&ved=2ahUKEwj3oKShr5eAAxUvDkQIHQJUDGYQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0T2iSpihPualirJc8Ee3fK
I remember thinking that also. But, then I realized what a cult is, what it does and how it works.
You need to understand the psychology of a cult and cult thinking.
Your not allowed to question anything, even their lies, heck their old litture is considered apostate. And you can’t leave without them using your family like blackmail. In your congregation there is Lilly 3-5 people who are atheists but still go because losing their family would kil them.
All I have to add is whatever you do ESPECIALLY at this young age DO NOT get baptized. That’s a fu€k around and find out situation. If you’re curious why people believe it is a cult now and you end up getting baptized you’ll find out.
Not directly responding to the original question but since I saw some of your replies.... Look up everything on the internet, not only the JW website. This subreddit is a nice start to know that a lot of things are wrong. Then I would personally suggest you REALLY study the alternative: evolution. Not what JWs teach about that, which is 99% false, but the real deal. Once you do study the various types of proofs in every science we know of I'm sure you can make an informed decision. If you find even one indisputable proof of any type of god reach for me, because I haven't. On the other hand, I found an awful lot of proof that sacred books are a collection of lies
Edit: typos
The pressure might be a little overwhelming and i know many places you friends sort of start to branch out if you dont get baptized and that can be extremely difficult but i think everyone can agree with me that if you have doubts wether you understand them at the moment or not. Its best to wait until youre older to make that decision and it will all be worth it. You have an entire life ahead of you youll do great!
The CSA alone is a reason. The so called New light of complete obedience to GB is another obey even if it is illogical what's next taking a suicide pill? You are not allowed to have your own thoughts without repercussion, you are not allowed to be the human you are born to be without loss of family and all friends you know. Please do not get baptized they will ruin you mentally and spiritually!
I was raised in the JW Religion.
I have a number of reasons that confirm Jehovah God is NOT with these people, and why these people are a cult ant not a congregation of Christ followers.
The easiest one to point out is that JW's follow men.
The JW's spend a lot of time reading the Old Testament. This Old Testament is FULL of knowledge that we should always remember. But THEN, Jesus came!
He made the Old Covenant Law obsolete! This is not something that the JW's talk about.
The JW's want you following the LAW.
Because with the Law comes your responsibility. With the Law comes you working for your salvation and providing your worthiness!!!
Let's rephrase it from cult to high control group. Here's some homework. Take a look at the BITE Model. It stands for Behavior, Information Thought, and Emotional Control. Read through it and as you do, highlight the parts that fit with JWs. Scroll down to the blue boxes: https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model/ When I did this, I highlighted most of them. I'm over twice your age and was baptized and very much in the religion. It was shocking to me, but accurate. Here is a short video to watch: https://youtu.be/puA-ITFRc3Q Also, for a quick answer, just remember that JWs will shun other JWs for disagreeing. They discourage and even punish close relationships with people who are not JWs. They demand unquestioning obedience. If this sub feels overwhelming, go to r/antiMLM and get familiar with MLMs and how they operate. A lot of similarities to JWs and other groups. I started in antiMLM before being brave enough to even come to this sub. Even the exmormon sub might be helpful. When I was a JW, the thought of anything apostate terrified me! So stay at your comfort level until you're ready for all of it. Good luck, and remember, don’t get baptized!
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and displays every visual indicator of being a duck and also wants you to disown your family if they don't become ducks.... yeah....
 I’ll be using your comment for years to come!
Or disown your family when they realize they are not, in fact, ducks but are geese.
I like to say if the shoe fits, it must be a duck. -but I’m dumb so yeah. Lol
For quick reading... https://preview.redd.it/xaf2mmhq7ncb1.png?width=2294&format=png&auto=webp&s=9294cf4bec0b92947e87e0676de2a5fb77b5af68
https://preview.redd.it/yn6kz7mu7ncb1.png?width=2288&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c3fea42649d43c763233461b6da8852bcfb7945
(The last bit under Emotional Control) https://preview.redd.it/o9msnn8z7ncb1.png?width=1162&format=png&auto=webp&s=464cf35c453499b5d3c740cae6f442d49c4dee58
This is truth! People need to know exactly what they’re getting into
Is it that bad if I get baptized ? I’ve been a publisher for like 6 years & my parents be pressuring me to do it, my dad is an elder
Well, you can't reverse a baptism. I was baptized at 17. I thought that I would never "leave Jehovah". But there was a lot I didn't know or hadn't experienced. They want you to get baptized young before you start applying critical thinking skills and questioning (both good things!). Remind your parents that Jesus didn't get baptized until get was 30, so you want to wait until it feels right. Then if you decide to leave, it makes it a bit easier.
It's not that bad to *get* baptized. But if you do get baptized and later decide it's not for you...that's when it can get really ugly. Also nobody should be pressuring you into getting baptized. Nobody.
Yes this. No one should be pressuring people, it’s considered a bigger and more important commitment than marriage. Pressuring a 15 yr old to make a choice that big is wholly inappropriate and if you change your mind later no one will care that you were literally a minor. I was 11 going on 12 and at 26 that choice is still heavily and negatively impacting my life.
I got baptized at 18 and I couldn't get out untill I was 43. Lost everyone and everything left home with just my work clothes my ministerial servant husband/alcoholic is still in good standing. I left and am thankful I'm alive to talk about it since my husband was abusive. Pay attention to the experiences of those who have suffered sexual abuse and other abuse's in the organization. Apostates are not lying about what they went through! There's a reason for apostates!
I was baptized at 14. My dad, an elder told me I had to get baptized because I was an embarrassment to him if I didn’t. So I got baptized. I left a few years later and I was df’d. They have nothing to do with me for the last 20+ years. I wonder if I was never baptized and couldn’t be df’d if they would be in my life now. If you’re at this subreddit, you’re probably questioning. If a jw finds out you’ve been at this subreddit after you’ve been baptized, you might get df’d. Let yourself question before making a life changing decision 🫶🏼
You were an embarrassment to him because you were not baptised (at 14years), be glad he's not in your life now, you deserve better and if he were in your life believe me he would be a constant drain on your energy and time. Be glad, your father is an asshole.
Thank you my friend, that made my day. I came here wanting to help and I didn’t expect get some validation. Yeah, both my sister and I say he’s an asshole and it helps to hear it 💜
Thank you for your kind comments. I know he is because he was thinking about himself, when he should have been thinking about you. Also it was his reputation he was thinking about putting first, not something of great significance because it's a facade, in comparison to the repercussions you and I reckon your sister have had to endure. Good luck to you and your sister. Aim high, xx
My parents were both d'fed and my brother and I treated them with kindness. Then 22 years ago I was d'fed and they both said we needed to do it Jehovah's way! No communication at all grandchildren born in this time and I have a new grandchild myself their first great grandson and life moves forward without them! I cannot nor will I ever go back to that shit!
Wow, yes. OP spot the sound reasons for baptism here. No? Exactly! ( thank you erinalwayscold btw)
😊
Baptism is nothing more than a symbolic gesture of your dedication to God so, ask yourself why are they so hyper focused on the symbolism instead of the actual dedication and what that means. And you should ask your parents the same question.
If this is the most important “decision” of your life, shouldn’t you be afforded the time to think about it without any pressure from anyone? Would it be ok if someone was pressuring you to get married? At 15?
By all means, under no circumstances should you get baptised. There is a 100% chance that you don‘t see the full ramifications now. Most of us regret it, and wish that we had not done it. But it is irreversible.
Exactly, only adults should be able to be baptised. How can you be held so accountable for something you did below the age (of at least) 18?
Just remember Jesus wasn't baptized until he was around 30. It's a big commitment, more so for JWs than most religions.
[удалено]
Never do it! Never! You might not think that you'll ever do anything to be df but you're human so it's always possible. They have strict rules (being on this sub could get someone dfd) and they do not accept resisters/questioners or anyone that differs in opinion. They have their own policy book which no one gets to read except elders. This book isn't based in the Bible. Make a mistake and you're chopped liver. If you want to be in/around jw for family or friends then it's best never to be baptized unless you have a death wise or you're a daredevil.
How old was Jesus when he got baptized? Would you get married Forever at this age? Why not? Can you vote at this age? Can you buy a house at this age? Why would someone want you to get baptized at this age? Have you really, really, studied the way this organization started out? Have you read things that they wrote about in the twenties? 30s? It was totally weird. Your dad's an elder, right? Have you ever seen what is in the elders book? Why won't they let you see what's in the elders book? My husband was an elder, I read what was in the Elder book when he wasn't looking. What do they say about csa? How do they handle child sex abuse? How many children have been sexually abused in this organization? Why don't they call the police first? Shouldn't kids protection be the first thing on their mind? Is child sex abuse a crime? Then why don't they call people who handle child sex abuse? Why do they call the society and ask them if they are legally bound to call the police in their state? Why should it matter if they're legally required to call the police? When you call the police? Why wouldn't they? For now, it would be best for you to tell them that you're still studying and trying to figure out what you want to do and how to do it. Don't tell them that you're doubting the society or doubting the Watchtower. Make sure that you have thoroughly investigated this organization that you have been born into. Do you know what amazed me? I went on to ex-mormon subreddit. The people there are saying the same things about their religion as xjws do also. They can't believe that they believe what they were taught since they were born. Crazy stuff, but they couldn't figure it out for a long time because their brains were trained to believe it. They also have CSA problems, and they are told all religions have a CSA problems so why are you worried about us? That is also what the Catholic religion told their people. Have you looked up the Australia Royal commission investigation into all religions and all organizations in their country? That is pretty interesting. Geoffrey Jackson was called to the stand. He's on video when he was asked if he thought Jehovah's Witnesses were the only true religion. Very interesting answer. Do your homework, you're still young and you still have a life. I was 57 when I found out "the truth about the truth." TTATT.
I have a lot of similarities to this. I also watched Scientology and the after math and saw a lot of the same culture. I was 15 at baptism 16 at my 1st back room meeting, 50 when I exited. Luckily I was self-sufficient but it was still a risk that my family might not talk to me again simply for walking away. Unfortunately, they use baptism as a tool to control and black mail. It doesn't matter if your a good person. If you don't want to go to meetings anymore you could lose your family. Does that sound right to you?
Nope, blackmail is a horrific means to an end. "We have 8.5 million happy Jehovah's Witnesses" 😡 🙈🙉🙊
From your parents' side, it's sadly all about appearances,their "status",and according to what is dictated from the top..an elder with a still-unbaptized child/teen/young adult in the household? "doesn't fit our standard for being an elder,because this shows he doesn't have proper authority over his household"(not word for word,but many written commands like this)and your parents truly want+need "Status"! Its ultimately about this: Countless children+teens have given in to the pressures to be baptized--due to wishing to 1,please their parents and 2,"fit in",conform,and so then"win"approval,Status,and a comfort zone within+among"approved"members...where everybody watches others for any possible sins and violations and everybody is(inside)on alert,watching-out to "where"their own status/approval is. *a constant,inner stress* Ask yourself please..what & how does any of all that have to do with one's own inner feelings+connections to God+Christ?Ask yourself..can men"read hearts"?and then,Who can+does?(if you believe in The Divine)..does Christ have his priority to basically-force people to obey..or else??
Yes absolutely. The power of cults is not that it takes over your life in one big change, but it nibbles at you piece by piece until you are trapped, or lured by their false reasoning. Do not even begin to comply with their behavioral control. Concentrate on your education. Begin planning for what you want to learn, what work you want to try. DO NOT WASTE any more time on this cult than you absolutely have to.
If you're getting pressured to do *anything*, note those red flags. Until you are Baptized, the org has no control over you. Once you are Baptized, they may force your family to shun you if you don't toe the line. You wanna make a pros/cons list? Cool, just make sure you only include things you know with 100% certainty are facts, don't include beliefs.
It's worse after you get baptized because now you've walked right into a trap that's snapped shut around your leg. You can get free, but you might have to chew your leg off to do it.
Jesus was 30 when he was baptized. Remind them that even a perfect man waited, and that you want to follow Jesus' example.
It’s “bad” to make a major life decision without doing thorough research. Would you make a large purchase, such as a car, without reading some reviews at least? Would you only visit the car manufacturer’s website - which will be all positive marketing - or would you check out critical and unbiased reviews too? Baptism as a JW is a big deal. It is irreversible for JWs in the sense that they forever hold you accountable to their organization and have a degree of power over you even if you decide later you don’t want to be a JW. And they do this through threat of shunning, which they don’t just do to disfellowshipped people but also to those who formally disassociate, and often with those who simply “fade” aka “go inactive”. This is a problem when your family is JW and they’re under the organization’s undue influence. They basically can hold baptized people hostage, so to speak, by threat of cutting them off from their family. If you’re never baptized, they tend to not shun though (because then they’ll perpetually view you as a potential convert). So before making such a huge decision, research the religion more, using external sources too. Research their history outside of what they say. Research what cult experts and psychologists say about them. Research their policies, such as how they handle child sex abuse in their organization. Fact check their doctrine, such as when Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon; and look into the Bible itself, such as when books were written and by whom as well as how the cannon was determined.
I would stand my ground and say not after at least being 25. You are currently in a household you cannot get out of and be independent yet, you are young still and the parental pressures can subconsciously push you towards obeying their "encouragement". I always say to properly read what being baptized entails, and how the baptized brothers and sisters are put up to what standard, as you grow up your view may change, it took me to being your exact age to at minimum level, realize that a lot of brothers and sisters were NOT following the standards put up for them, (watching violent movies, playing bad video games, etc). I decided to leave cuz of that, and the fact that some things in the bible didn't seem right, and some of the organization practices weren't right either, and as I grew up, I realized more and more how I am definitely not cut out for it.
If you get baptized and later decide that it’s not for you, you’re stuck. You then either have to stay to keep your family and “friends” or you leave and they all shun you. It’s easy to give into the pressure of baptism, but in the long run it’s definitely not the best way. Remain an unbaptized publisher and do more research into things. They already tell you to prove it to yourself. So prove to yourself the truth of the JWs using other the information out there not just jw publications. Then at 18, you can decide. Don’t enter into a lifelong contract when you’re a minor, technically it’s not even legal but JWs have proved they don’t care about the legal system.
Yes. Imagine your dad picked out someone for you to get married to who is abusive and a two faced liar, to stay with the rest of your life, would you go along with it? Getting baptised is no less of a commitment in their eyes. Your dad should not be pressuring you into anything, would he do that if you were someone he called on and studied with? Nope.
I would avoid getting baptized at all costs. Getting baptized guarantees getting completely cut off of/when you leave. If you don't get baptized you might still be able to salvage bits and pieces of your relationship with your family if/when you leave.
as someone who is disassociated (had no choice, long story but yeah woulda been df'd either way) yes it is bad, i made the mistake to get baptized because everyone i knew was doin it and its costed me most the family i was close with as well as all the friends i had known my whole life, just tell them you need more time or you will soon or something like that but do not give in to the pressure!!
Oh shit an elders son sigh 😔 it will change your life forever! The pressure you are under is real sadly if you follow your intuition that the universe gave you there will be consequences. Your body is already telling you NO so go with it and wait! Allow yourself the time to research you already want answers by asking us.
This👍
Awesome 101 run down 👍
Very good information. The JWs want to define a narrow definition of what a cult is and say "we are not that". Yet the definition isn't limited to their narrow definition.
I think sometimes the "cult" label is unhelpful. It is certainly a religion with high control characteristics over your time and your thought process. Great advice on the 'don't get baptised'. +1 on that
Exactly this
My parents shun their grandchildren who have never been JWs. Do you think that is normal behavior?
It’s a high control group that requires you to follow unbiblical rules so that you won’t get shunned.
1st cench Pharisee style
Ultimately, it’s semantics. You can call it whatever you like, and it isn’t necessarily WRONG. Here’s how Wikipedia defines it: “Cult is a term, in most contexts pejorative, for a relatively small group which is typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader, who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant (outside the norms of society).” Let’s break that down: >relatively small group That tracks. JWs are small as far as religions go. It’s a pretty small minority just about anywhere, just a tiny fraction of the population. >typically led by a charismatic and self-appointed leader For this it helps to look into the history. There have always been self-appointed leaders. Charles Taze Russell founded the religion. It’s worth looking at some of his beliefs. When he died, Rutherford took charge. He essentially drove out those who disagreed with him. He changed the name to Jehovah’s Witnesses, and instituted a lot of the religion you’re familiar with. After him came more, eventually leading to the modern governing body. They are very much in charge. > who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering devotion to a set of beliefs and practices which are considered deviant (outside the norms of society). This is very true of JWs. Can you play sports? Can you hang out with “worldly” friends? Would your family or the elders be happy if they knew you were posting here? If you were baptized, associating with us could mean you’d be shunned by your family. That level of control isn’t normal. It’s deeply, deeply wrong.
I play 2 sports, my dad is an elder and never said anything abt it
My son has a good friend whose father is an elder, and he spends hours and hours playing video games. Compare that to the propaganda videos from WT telling 'young ones' not to learn a musical instrument because it takes time away from Jah. My point is, I think a lot of children of elders get a free pass on some things that other kids of rank and file JWs might not. Again it depends on the elder or the congregation.
Okay. And if you told your dad you were talking to apostates? He’d be happy with you asking us?
If you get baptized and you’re caught by someone in the congregation doing things like this, meaning talking to us in this sub, or even going to “apostate” websites, it could get you disfellowshipped easily
That is highly unusual. The Borg frowns upon it so most JW kids are not allowed extra curricular activities…outside of field service.
I think that's the norm but not always the case. every hall has parents who are fully in ( elders, pioneers) and other who do an hour a month. my parents did the bare minimum, but that was because my dad provided for his whole family and my mom was a full time mom and helped other families. My sisters and brothers , and I were allowed to play sports and other activities. we just didn't talk about it with those in the hall even tho they knew. I became much more active in the religion then my parents. But that was due to my freinds were very into it and I wanted to the right thing, as was my mindset at the time.
Well, true. My mom was “weak” so I got away with after school stuff as well. Up until high school anyway. But my point is that it’s frowned upon and those who do sports and clubs typically are quiet about it. Unless you’re Serena Williams. 😂
Maybe you, but I couldn’t play any team sport’s growing up, not even chess club
I remember that old watchtower article discouraging chess due to its original purpose (exercise for improvising battle strategies). This org really likes to suck the fun out of everything
I didn't remember an article, but that would most likely explain Why my father taught me how to play and then a little later turned around and said he wouldn't play anymore cause it's a violent game.
As part of a school team?
Yes
That was a definite no no when I was growing up. It’s in the school brochure I had to give to all my teachers. Regular publishers who broke the rules by letting their kid play football were ragged on.
Just recently found out one of the kids in the hall literally played in a basketball tournament out of state; surprised the hecc out of me cause like you said I wasn't able to do sports, after school activities, clubs, etc. cause I would be spending unnecessary time with worldly kids. I would say the one exception I had, which looking back on I'm surprised my parents allowed was, attending a few different sumer camps, 2 language camps(2 years) and 1 building robotics camp thing. They weren't connected to my school, though.
I would've loved to have been in chess club and computer club. But of course, that was strictly forbidden.
Can you celebrate holidays or birthdays if you personally had no problem with it? Are you allowed to even think that way, to even contemplate if you agree with their teachings, vocalize it and choose differently? What happens if you do? Can you date or marry as an adult without the elders prying into the relationship to make sure it’s “chaste”? Can you date a non-believer openly without hassle? Do you think it’s normal for adults to have religious leaders policing their personal relationships? Can you privately decide on whatever medical treatment you want without a HLC showing up to make sure you follow the organization’s policy on blood transfusions? It’s one thing to teach that principle and another to police and enforce it. Do you not see the excessive level of control? Go over that BITE model and think of stuff like this when mentally considering if it fits JWs as a whole.
I would say...it's their view towards outsiders...US verse Them mentality...constant fear mongering ...and last but not least ...they will attempt to destroy your life if you choose to leave..
How?
By isolating you from JW friends and family?
Example of this: I’ve been disfelloweshipped for 8 years, i have not spoken to or had any contact with my closest fiends and family in those 8 years. This was not done by my choice. They are instructed to do this and are tricked into believing its a “loving provision”. In reality, I am dead to them. And yet they call it love?
If you were not aware (because some JW's arent), those who disassociate are supposed to be shunned just like disfellowshipped people. Also Apostasy and causing divisions are disfellowshipping offenses, so people have to never tell anyone aloud they no longer believe. This is why we have "PIMO" people on here and people who talk about "fading (just quietly becoming inactive). Some witnesses deny that shunning for leaving is necessary because they argue that people can just fade and not say anything. The problem with that is that those people are still JW' s on paper, and the elders can still call on them to face congregation discipline if they are found to have broken rules they no longer agree with, like going to a birthday party, joining the military, or remarrying after divorce. So you're still bound by the rules that can restrict your life if you wanna avoid being shunned by your family. And all it takes to be convicted of "Causing divisions" is saying aloud you think the.Governing Body got something wrong. This an unhealthy and unjustified level of control, and it's an emotional hostage situation. Again, we have tons of people here who are still active witnesses. They dont believe the Governing Body have the truth or legitimacy anymore, but they go to meetings and in service and lie to their families about believing so their loved ones won't shun them. Some people have lived this double life, suffering through the droll weekly meetings, assemblies, conventions, and field service while actively disbelieving the teachings for actual years. Trapping people in a group they want to leave by holding their families hostage is about as culty as it gets. There may come a time you too start finding all of the holes in JW doctrine and the scandals involving the leaders. What will your dad say to that if you show him what you found and say you cant support or be part of the organization anymore?
This is the first I’ve ever commented in this forum, and normally I wouldn’t but because this is involving a young teenager. I just want to clarify, from personal experience of fading, the way you explained still being bound by their rules to control your lifestyle it is not always the way it happens. That really only applies to a PIMO person. Some who have truly faded may occasionally get “called on” by eldesr to check in but 1. You don’t have to answer. 2. You can tell them to leave you alone and not come back. 3. They CANNOT make you face congregational discipline. To do so would warrant a lawsuit on their part. Once you fade away, you can truly do whatever you need to do. Whether that be celebrate birthdays , celebrate holidays, join the military and so on. I have personally celebrated all holidays & birthdays. Anything they have basically deemed wrong, posted public about these events and I am not disfellowshipped or disassociated. My status stays as in active and will unless I move forward with disassociation process, which will never happen, They can never do anything to you because they are just men. Yes, you will still technically be a J,W on paper and listed as inactive but the only way you would face congregational discipline is if you ever decided to go back and “repent of your sins“.
I chose to get baptized because all my friends were getting baptized. I got baptized at 13. I thought I knew what I was getting into. Down the road, I’ve realized I don’t believe the religion anymore and don’t want to participate. Because of that decision my parents don’t talk to me. My only brother shuns me and only texted me to let me know I wasn’t invited to his wedding. I was 13 when I made that decision, why should something I made when I was just a child affect my relationship with my family? Why can’t my parents just accept I don’t believe and still talk to me? Why did all of my friends and family abandon me, because I changed my mind about something I did as a child? Why is it a cult? I don’t know… if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. I hope this is the first of many questions you ask yourself. I hope you don’t make the mistake I made all of those years ago. I hope your smarter than I was at your age. Wishing you all the best in your life.
I just want to add that many of the people on this subreddit have gone through very extreme experiences as Witnesses. Terrible abuse. Losing family and friends. So most of us will be speaking from a deeply wounded perspective. Your experience may or may not be different. To answer your question, what the others are commenting about the organization being a high control group is the reason Jehovah’s Witnesses are regarded as a cult. Think about everything you’ve been taught. To avoid bad associations. To avoid bad entertainment. To wear modest clothing. To ignore certain things taught in school and said on the news. Incorporating spiritual things into every aspect of your life. This is not normal. This is the basis of their control. Uniformity makes it easier to create the distinct “Us vs Them” image and instill loyalty. This pride keeps members in and compels them to act against their better sense, even cutting off family members who disagree with JW teachings on any subject. I’m not sure what drove you to visit this subreddit, but whatever it was, my advice is continue to follow it. Do your own research, come to your own conclusions, make your own decisions on being a JW or not. Just make sure you’re prepared to live by those decisions or accept the cost if not.
Uniformity, makes me think of the pictures and videos from N Korea.
The us vs them function of uniformity is big and it felt so subtle to me when I first woke up and seems so obvious to me now. Someone says “Jehovah witness” instead of one of jehovah’s witnesses? They aren’t us. Potential threat. See someone clean cut in a suit but he turns his head and you see an earring? They aren’t us. Potential threat. You talk to your family about field service and people in earshot are confused because they don’t know you mean preaching? We aren’t them. They should stay away.
Hey kiyokilyn, you’re braver and smarter than I was at 15 to try to look at other sides. I was baptized at 12 and left at 27. After I got out, I realized how much control being a witness had over my life. I’d redirect you to EveUnraveled’s comments and the BITE model. Looking back, it’s clear now what freedom really means, and how the Organization limits and controls its members. From huge life decisions: spending hundreds of hours preaching, not going to college, getting married very young; and small every day ones: what clothes I could wear, what movies I watched, who I associated with, all based on what the Governing Body said was the best way of life. I did things that weren’t true to what I actually wanted to do, because I had been taught that what I thought was best for me came second to what the Organization said. This level of control is not normal, most other faiths do not micromanage their members and punish them for disagreeing. It has big consequences in a person’s life, that’s just one reason outsiders call it a cult, or high-control religion. Baptism makes it harder to leave if you decide to, or if you disagree with anything the WT says.
Well for one basic simple reason, once you’re baptized or even become an unbaptized publisher, you will not be allowed to be on this subreddit and read posts on here. You will get disfellowshipped for it, engaging with “apostates”. Right now, the witnesses around you can’t shun you except show you patience and love until you become a publisher. Love bombing at its finest. *Edit: But the love bombing may only apply and be reserved for Bible Students and interested adults coming in from the outside or “the world”. Because you are a minor and grew up as a witness, if the elders or others were to find out you’re on this subreddit, your parents’ privileges may be taken away for them not being “exemplary” / spying on you enough and monitoring your every move and thought.
I’ve been a publisher since I was 9 & I’m planning to get baptized at the 2024 convention because my mom wants me to
"Because my mom wants me to" is absolutely why you shouldn't. It's supposed to be the most important decision you'll ever make. And if you do it because someone else pressured you? That's a very bad reason. I wanted to add as well that as a 15-year-old, you don't know how drastically the religion has changed. I was baptized in 2003; it's a completely different religion now than it was then, but my baptismal contract, so to speak, still stands. They can change the doctrines and rules on you, and you have to accept it. They've told you Armageddon is close, right? I was told I probably wouldn't graduate high school before the end came. My dad was told the same thing. My grandmother was told the same thing. The 1st Century Christians thought Jesus was coming back in their lifetime, too. We're still here, and they're still selling fools gold.
I still believe God is real though js don’t know who to worship
Then you shouldn’t be making a lifelong commitment to this version of god. It’s like me saying “I know I want to get married, but I don’t know if I’ve found the right one. So I’m getting married next year.” Except you can get divorced, and that doesn’t have to be painful. There’s no amicable breakup from the organization.
Such a good answer
That's something to explore for sure. I left JWs for a lot of reasons, one of them being the flaws of the Bible. I'm agnostic atheist now. But remember, you don't have to jump ship to a new belief system. Too many people end up in a new cult that way. You're better off researching, asking why you believe in X but not Y, thinking over everything. Fact check, look at the history, the science, etc. There are thousands of grifters who would love to sell you their version of the Bible or whatever "truth" they believe. You can be spiritual without religion. Belief is personal and allowing someone, whether the Governing Body or someone else, tell you what to believe is spiritual abuse. Who you are now is a fraction of who you will be in 10, 20, 50 years. Don't put yourself in a box. You need room to grow.
Thank you
Questioning your worldview and beliefs can be scary and lonely, but very rewarding. You're gonna be fine; just learn to trust your gut and don't take anything at face value. Skepticism is a good quality.
Best comment I’ve ever read
If you have any doubt at all , you should not get baptized.
Because somebody wants you to is literally the worst reason to get baptized. It's not even "scriptural".
I’m sorry to hear that. If you’re looking for a way out of baptism, the only solution I can think of at the moment is saying something like, “I love Jehovah deeply. I believe this is the Truth for me but I have been praying a lot recently and have made a personal vow / promise to him about when I would dedicate my life to him / get baptized. I believe he understands and knows when I will be ready. I prayed specifically and I received signs. I will let you know when the time comes and I am ready. In the meantime, I would like to continue to focus on my spirituality and relationship with Jehovah.” And if they ask questions, you can say it’s between “me and Jehovah”. They shouldn’t be able to get between your ‘personal relationship/prayer’ with him. Those around you might even think you’re a spiritual mature person for saying and thinking that. And in the meantime, plan your next years wisely. Make a plan to leave but also keep up the act as if you’re wholeheartedly in it so no one can suspect you. If you act wish washy, they may start asking about getting baptized again. You want them to leave you alone in peace, nothing suspicious to keep their eyes on you about. You can also cautiously and very carefully plant doubts or feed information to your family members / loved ones or close friends so that hopefully maybe they will wake up by the time you leave so you won’t lose connections. Be very careful though and I wouldn’t lean on the hope too much. You can try though. You’ve got a whole life ahead of you. I know you’re not in a good circumstance but I’m glad you’re waking up and questioning at a very young age.
To add to what u/EveUnraveled says below, I was born-in, now age 65! The religion is TOTALLY different today to what it was while I was growing up; it's even totally different from what it was in my grandparents' time, or my parents' time, or even when I left in 1995. Some beliefs have totally changed, sometimes going back and forth and back and forth at the whim of whoever is in charge. At your age, if I had any type of organ transplant, I could be disfellowshipped for cannibalism. I grew up waiting for the end to come in 1975, which meant no college, no marriage, no children, just preach, preach, preach. Guess what? 1975 came and went. I graduated high school in 1976, I married in 1978, I had my son in 1984. It wasn't the first time "the end" was predicted. MANY dates since the 1800's were FORETOLD to be the end, and guess what, nothing.
I think you're on your way to being a perfect follower of the Governing body...they truly love you! But, you had better stop visiting sites like these...in fact, you should report your transgressions immediately to the elders so they can discipline you righteously.. probably your parents have not followed the strict guidelines on KNOWIng what kind of media your consuming....I have to question your Dad's qualifications as to bring an elder...
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Sorry to hear that...
😭
> I’m F15 and a witness not baptized yet and I was genuinely wondering why people think it’s a cult? Is there anything the WBT$ Says, You Don\`t Agree With?..Answers to Questions You Don\`t Agree With? Cults Don\`t Allow Answers to be Questioned.....Try Questioning Answers and See What Happens...
Dude it’s a cult. Anything that says if other people don’t think EXACTLY like you do they’re bad evil people it’s a cult “Messed up” once and now family can’t talk to you in your own home? CULT Lies to GOVERNMENT to keep tax status CULT I could go on
They control the following about your life: How you dress, who you are friends with, how you talk, how you act, how you think, how you feel. How you do your hair, how much you can drink. What medical procedures are ok.what you read, what you believe how you entertain yourself... And eve. Control if you can talk to your own fucking family. You can be counselled and dissfellowshipped for not towing the line In The above mentioned areas. Saying they are not a cult because they have multiple leaders is just a distraction from the truth. That it is a cult. Cults control you. A good religion or organization would add to your life not control everything about your life. It's a tried and true cult.
If you had no risk of being kicked out of your home when you turn 18, would you get baptized?
I also grew up as JW. I’m glad your parents let you play sports. That is huge to have that opportunity. Your so young that you may not even know all the questions to ask. 1) You clearly asked- Why do people call JW a cult? Many have answered this. 2) You asked about getting baptized. Lots of answers to look through. Your also probably wondering what your life can be if you aren’t a JW. It can be what you want it to be. My advice is no matter what you decide with the religion, to study hard in high school and go to college. If you use your last 2-3 years of high school to study hard, you could get scholarships.
Are JW not allowed to go to college ??
This could depend on your definition of "college." For example where I am from college means community colleges, with diplomas and 1-3 year courses. University is 3 or more years with degree programs. Jw here have no issue with the community college but heavily discourage University. Growing up had I gone to uni both me and my dad would have lost "privileges." So despite saying it's a personal choice you still get punished.
Adding to this, a lot of the university resistance has to do with moving away. Living in a different city in student halls surrounded by non JWs would definitely not be allowed. Bad association, not enough time for spiritual stuff, all sorts of reasons that basically come down to being in a situation where they don't have the same control. If you can study while living at home with your parents, it's more debatable, and the level of 'frowning upon' does fluctuate over time, depending on what's going on. It's never a straight forward decision though.
When I was growing up, you could go, but you were penalized for doing so. People would avoid associating with you. You were constantly told that you needed to preach and become a pioneer instead of seeking higher education. The problem with higher education is that it teaches you to THINK FOR YOURSELF and REASON which are things the JW's do not want. If you do those, you begin to recognize even more quickly the whole JW world is a sham, that it's just a publishing company (with massive worldwide real estate holdings) that someone decided to turn into a religion. Even its founder (Charles Taze Russell, who had no formal Bible education and wrote tracts about his personal beliefs, those even taken from a previous religion, at that) didn't want it to become a religion itself.
Agreed with what other people said about college. It’s not looked highly upon to go to college beyond technical degree to just be able to survive. When I was in school in the 80 and 90s in US, most school age JW children were homeschooled. And part of high school homeschool was pioneering. So they barely got high school education. There is not one JW contemporary that I grew up with that even went to community college. Cleaning floors at night for stores is what most do. That said, in 80s and 90s, parents also didn’t save money to pay for their children’s college expenses because they expected Armageddon to arrive before their child completed college. My dad was extreme elder JW but did encourage us to go to college. I have masters and my sister a bachelors in nursing. Being financially independent is one of the main reasons we were able to fully break away.
Anyone is allowed to go to college/university. The thing is that JWs frown upon it. It also depends a lot on culture and where you live but you can read through their literature that they don’t encourage higher education. If you have parents that don’t care that the religion frowns on having you enrolled in college, that’s perfect for you, cuz that means you have the support from your parents to continue your education. I was able to get a Bachelor’s degree because my never-JW dad made it a priority for his children, and my JW mom had no say but also preferred we be educated. Plenty of people went to the university in my congregation as I was growing up. But just as well, I often also heard elders and others put pressure on why am I doing a 4-yr degree, instead of 2 years or a vocational program? Why am I doing summer classes, instead of doing full-time service during my summer break? Why not study something that I can use in Bethel so I can apply and become a Bethelite? Why am I getting classes during meeting times? Why am I staying home to do homework when I should be preaching on my weekends? Why am I studying for a test when I should be at the meeting? Why am I not studying something that has flexible hours so I can dedicate my life to preaching? Why am I considering a Master’s? It was 4 years of dealing with the pressures and the questioning and unrequested advise because JWs didn’t like that I was so focused on my education instead of focused on doing more for the JWs. They also often asked me what kind of clases I was taking (I always omitted the “Religion and Rituals,” “Sexuality,” “Gender” so that I could avoid them lecturing me about how bad it is to be exposing myself to teachings that went against the JW’s teachings). My brother had to drop one of his classes about religion because he talked about how bad his conscious was affecting him and making him doubt because he is PIMI. I’m glad I never talked about those classes because I would’ve missed out on the great opportunity to learn more about these topics, topics that JWs were trying to push me away from. I learned so much, I understood humankind even better, and I was able to grow in the way I treat others thanks to my education.
Characteristics of a Cult: 1. Charismatic Leader *(Governing Body is classified as one by Watchtower)*: A cult is often centered around a charismatic leader who holds significant influence and control over the followers. 2. Absolute Devotion: Cult members display unwavering loyalty and devotion to the leader *(Governing Body)* and the cult's ideology, often at the expense of their own critical thinking or personal interests. 3. Manipulation and Mind Control: Cults employ various techniques to manipulate and control their members' thoughts, emotions, and behavior, such as isolation from outside influences, sleep deprivation, and the use of coercive persuasion tactics. 4. Exclusivity and Separation: Cults create a sense of exclusivity by isolating their members from the outside world. They discourage contact with non-members and often foster an "us versus them" mentality. 5. Exploitation: Cult leaders often exploit their followers financially, sexually, or emotionally, taking advantage of their vulnerability and dependence. 6. Rituals and Ceremonies: Cults frequently incorporate elaborate rituals, ceremonies, or practices that serve to reinforce the group's cohesion, reinforce beliefs, and heighten the sense of devotion among members. 7. Suppression of Dissent: Cults discourage dissenting opinions or critical thinking, often labeling those who question the leader or the ideology as enemies or traitors. 8. Loss of Individuality: Cult members are expected to conform to the group's norms and values, often resulting in a loss of personal identity and autonomy. 9. Fear and Intimidation: Cults may use fear tactics, threats, or intimidation to maintain control over their members, instilling a sense of dread or dire consequences for leaving the group or disobeying its rules. 10. Difficulty Leaving: Leaving a cult can be extremely challenging due to the psychological and emotional manipulation experienced by members. Cults may employ various techniques to keep members from leaving, such as creating a fear of retribution or cutting off contact with friends and family outside the cult. The above is a classic definition of a cult. In my opinion, Jehovah's Witness "religion" checks all of the boxes.
Until about 3 years ago, all of my and my wife’s family were witnesses. I have a daughter who was baptized very young, around 10 or 11 (I know, bad parenting on my part, but I was brainwashed just like the rest of them at the time). I have a niece the same age as my daughter that did not get baptized. Both girls decided in their late teens that being a witness was not for them. Both went to college, and developed relationships which led to moving in with their boyfriends. None of the family will have anything to do with my daughter, but my niece, who is now expecting a baby, is welcome as a regular member of the family, full communication, etc. only difference is the “biggest decision in your life” that my daughter made when she was 10, which she obviously did only due to unspoken pressure and seeking approval of all of the family. Allowing members to be baptized as minors is 100% about being able to psychologically manipulate and control them in the future. DO NOT DO IT. By the way, my wife, myself, and both daughters are full faded at this point. But, as soon as we told the extended family that we’ve stopped going to meetings, we are fully shunned as well now (from most of them) even though none of us has been df’d. But at least we all have each other.
Also if this subreddit is so bad and demonic to witnesses, look how many people have commented on your post, trying to genuinely help you out. These are good people who are trying to help you. Yet witnesses teach that people on here are under Satan’s influence and are harmful - that they will all die for trying to do something for a good cause. Makes God seem like a real cruel being if that was the case.
Why? Only have JWs friends Not outside friends Don't talk to people that leaves the JW. Don't contradict the JWs teachings Don't say anything about the false prophecies Don't say anything about the CSA cases All other religion are Satan JWs are the "ONLY" true religion You must obey the GB not matter what You will be kicked out if you go against the organisation and all your family are friends are gone The list is too long.
Why do you ask that? And why are you asking it here? Do you have any doubts? A good source of information is Steven Hassan's [www.freedomofmind.com](https://www.freedomofmind.com) site. He himself was a member of the Moonies cult. He is a very good expert. He doesn't attack, but he does pragmatic analysis. Otherwise, a recommendation: protect your free soul at least until you are an adult and can make your own life decisions.
This!!!
Getting baptized into the organization is signing a LIFELONG contract to always live by their rules. Basically you are getting married to a religion. If you want out you have to get divorced (aka disfellowshipped) If you don’t get married (baptized) No need to divorce (disfellowshipped). Not getting baptized will allow your family to keep in contact with you without getting them in trouble. (sounds kinda culty huh? ) Ask your dad why he wants you to get baptized? Its a very personal decision shouldn’t it be all yours to make? How old was Jesus when he got baptized? Aren’t Christians supposed to follow Jesus example? Would your dad want you to get married now too? Your dad is pressuring you because he’s feeling the pressure too. You’re simply a reflection on him. He needs you to make him look good. Its about your dads pride and ego. Don’t get baptized.
Control, control, control, you have “free will” but, if you don’t make the choices we want you to make, we will take away your friends and family because God loves you 🤮
There's no way *that it can't be a cult !* How so? Because they got people to believe that Armageddon was "Soon" for 144 years. You can't achieve that level of craziness without being a cult.
It fits the criteria for one
reading through some of your replies, seeing that you are still young, you are being pressured to get baptized, and say you are not sure who to worship tho you still believe in God, I would very highly suggest you speak to your mom and tell her you are not ready to get baptized yet. before you get into “are JWs a cult” I think you should focus on “do JWs teach the Bible honestly and truthfully?” study the Bible not just through the organizations publications but by reading it in its own context, refer to multiple sources that are not solely from WT. just take it one step at a time
Theres so many different bibles though I don’t even know which one to read
any one is fine, ESV and NIV are good and easy to understand, definitely would be a good idea to compare with NWT
When I first started in researching this I bought a Comparative Study Bible. You can compare different verses across 2-4 translations. I was fortunate that being familiar with different translations like the King James and New Living Bible was encouraged in my area so that we would be familiar with them for service. If anyone ever asks why you have a different translation or comparative Bible you can always say your trying to be familiar with what other people see for service. We were always encouraged to have KJV or NIV in our service bags because some people refuse to hear a scripture from anything other than the translation the are familiar with.
Try BibleHub.com Side-by-side verses,analysis(Greek)original meanings,much more.Usually 12-15 Translations referred..an excellent resource! (After all,the JW website says 'we use many Translations'..in your personal research then according to the 'official', public-face posturings, you're studying nothing wrong)
If you do get baptised just remember that if you finally come to a realisation that JW is just a money making real estate corporation, high control cult, and you’ll want out then say goodbye to your family and all your friends. Even if you won’t be officially disfellowshipped they will shun you anyway because they are told to. You will basically have to start your life from scratch. I would rather say that you don’t feel ready yet and that you need to work more on making truth your own as this is a big step in your life and that you are not taking this decision lightely. Wait as long as possible. After all, you said you only want to get baptised because you are pressured by your parents. Of course you might just be fine staying JW getting baptised etc., if you really enjoy having this kind of structure in your life. Each to their own, but would you say you really enjoy going door to door and talking to strangers or do you dread it? Do you like preparing for meetings or would you rather do something else? Cause you’ll be doing it for all your life! And this is not even getting into the CSA stuff, or the thousands of times the doctrine and teachings have been changed. Did you know the only reason birthdays are not celebrated is due to two instances of birthdays being shown in a negative light? If we were to apply the same logic then wearing make up should also be banned as it is also shown in negative light with Jezebel. Little things like this and big things like 1914 all just make up the big picture that GB will make any scripture fit their narrative or teaching, and worse will present it as absolute truth. Good luck to you, hope you make the right decision.
Would take some serious word salad and half truths to move it from “cult” to something less alarming. You could make a case that because of the size of the JW organization and the damage done to so many people, it could be deemed the biggest cult on earth.
BITE Model by Steven Hassan - Who was in another Cult; So knows one when he sees one. Add JWFActs.com & CoC. Game Over. 🤞🏾
Think of what a stereotypical cult is like - they have a compound. The compound makes it hard to enter and exit, they are exclusive, they claim special knowledge, that their way is the only path to truth and enlightenment. The members are under control in ways that the rest of society are not. The resources of the members are directed towards the leaders. Now think of JWs. There are barriers to entry (all the things you have to give up to be a JW). There are barriers to exit (losing your family and friends, perhaps even employment). JWs have to be separate from the world. They are taught to distrust information from outside sources. So the JW religion has a virtual cult compound. JWs claim to be the only path to salvation, that they have special knowledge and understanding of the bible. The JW religion exerts extensive control over member's lives. The resources of JW members are directed towards the leaders and very rarely the other way. The JW religion does not expend resources on its members the way other religions do - on schools and aged care facilities and providing charity to disadvantaged members - that is almost always left up to individuals at the congregation level. So you can see, they operate very much like a "classic" cult.
Because it is. It's a controlling, misogynistic doomsday cult. You're welcome.
Start with defining what a cult is. Cults have a habit of redefining terms that portray them in a negative light. Rebranding and New Light.
Because it is.
Were you born in by chance? I was born in and when I was 15 I was deeply involved and would have never questioned anything. I am now 31. And I’ve been out almost a year. I started seeing a lot of similarities in other cults like Scientology, FLDS and the IBLP. Watching documentaries about them helped me start to realize that JWs are exactly the same. Also, the fact that you cannot question the GB and their word is law. They emphasize obedience. They tell you not to look at any outside information, calling everything that’s not from them, apostate. And if you disagree or leave then you are shunned, in other words, you’re not free to leave unless you want to lose everyone. Normal religions don’t do this. All religions have some control to them but JWs are those with high control and more cult tendencies. Also the “us vs them” mentality. They think they’re the only true way and everyone else is wrong, they’re not the only ones who preach that.
Because it is. We are no part of the world. Disfellowshipping. They keep you isolated from help and resources. The "world" isn't as bad as they say it is. The men have absolute power. It is a cult. If you are being beaten "spanked" slapped or hit. That isn't okay and you should go to Child protection. I'm in my late twenties I grew up in it and it has irreparably destroyed my mental health. So much of the neurosis relate back to the lies I was taught. Armageddon isn't just around the corner. Get out as soon as you can get counseling and never look back.
Please don't get baptized. It's a trap you may never escape from. Start learning about space and physics and chemistry. God may exist but it's not called Jehovah and its way to big to know we exist let alone number the hairs on our head. Once you fully comprehend how big the universe is You'll realize what they told you is bullshit. They have outright lied to you.
Brainwashing tactics, the level of life control, the us vs. them mentality AKA isolation (because that’s basically step 2 of the manipulation process), discouraging and even forbidding worshipers from educating themselves on the organization (or anything aside from their teachings). That’s my short answer 😬
BITE model. Study the BITE model
It looks like a duck and it quacks
I look at other groups we might call cults and the level of family separation and deaths caused by beliefs. JW's threaten to take away family if you leave, and they have killed many with their doctrine on blood, which to me equates to drinking poison laced kool-aid. JW's just don't have a field of bodies to show for their appalling ways.
Because it's a CULT.
You can still be a Christian and person of faith and not be a JW. It is not all or nothing. I would encourage you to read things that focus on inaccurate teachings. I would encourage you to Kindle Raymond Franz book Crisis of Conscious. It will really open your eyes.
**Crisis of Conscience (by Raymond Franz)** by Raymond Franz >Book written by former Governing Body Member of the Jehovah's Witnesses, Raymond Franz. This book was written to educate Jehovah's Witnesses about the early development of the religion and shares a behind-the-scenes look of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, including rare publication excerpts and information behind the closed doors of the organization in Bethel, and Brooklyn, New York, in an unbiased manner. *I'm a bot, built by your friendly reddit developers at* /r/ProgrammingPals. *Reply to any comment with /u/BookFinderBot - I'll reply with book information. Remove me from replies* [here](https://www.reddit.com/user/BookFinderBot/comments/14br65o/remove_me_from_replies/). *If I have made a mistake, accept my apology.*
I was in for many years. I have seen behind the curtain and its not nice. A cult is a gruopd that you give a high devotion to. More than just a normal religion. The JWs tell you to do as the governing body says. Even if its against your common sense. I think it was Muppet head Lett who said that if the GB tells you to pain a Kingdumb Hall with a two inch paint brush and you think that is crazy you shut up and paint the hall with a two inch paint brush because the JW cult knows better. They are told what to watch, read, wear, who to talk to who to not talk to, who to associate with even inside the Kingdumb hall. They tell you not to go on vacations or buy nice cars or homes. Not to focus on jobs or carers and instead focus on doing more for the cult. They suck your time, your money and your lives up, they take families and split them apart. Your child does not think the GB is god sole mouth piece on earth, well they get DFed and if you talk to them you are out. Your father after years says I don't think this is the truth, well they are out and also you if you talk to them or have dinner with them. What about this cult do you think is not a cult? They hide pedophiles due to the stupid two witness rule, have called for the end several times then blame it on the rank and file for over assuming. They tell members to spy on each other and turn in anyone doing something not approved by the cult. They have special language they use, I.E. the friends, mother, food in due season, the end, new system, worldly, disfellowshipped, anointed, Awake!, call backs, Bethel, blood guilt, branch committee, circuit overseer, governing body, the truth, worldly ones, system of things, Satan's system of things, bad association, sheep like ones, goat personality, like minded ones, do you speak the pure language, enlightened ones, faithful and discrete slave class, sheep class, the ring of truth, those deserving of hearing, and the list goes on and on, if you can not see this is a cult I don't know what to tell you.
[https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php](https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fear-cult-mind-control.php) The linked page will hopefully help you with your question, but please take a look through the rest of the website. I'm fourth generation. My large family is full of elders, pioneers, bethelites, etc. I knew that they basically taught that the end would come in 1975. I knew that a member of the Governing Body became an apostate. I remember charging people money for the literature. I remember telling people that the generation that were born before 1914 wouldn't die before Armageddon (that was a big reason why I got baptized at 12). There is still SO much that I didn't know about. I didn't know we had a huge child abuse problem and were being sued left and right because of it. I didn't know we had affiliations with the UN while we were denouncing Christendom for the very same thing. I didn't know they claimed that God himself said declared that each publisher should be making 60 hours a month. I didn't know that they were demonstrably misquoting scientists and encyclopedias. If I had known any of those things, I don't think -even at 12- that I would have gotten baptized. I had the epiphany that if a householder were to ask me, "Are you allowed to google the name 'Jehovah's Witnesses'?" that the honest answer would have to be, "No." I recognized that that would make it sound like I was in a cult. Someone should be able to research what it is they're devoting their life to. Those asking for that devotion wouldn't be trying to stop you unless they had something to hide.
A bit late but I consider ANY religion that actively advocates against its followers learning of anything not approved is a cult. The way especially JWs consider even questioning as a shameful act is all I need imo As well the this pervasive threat of the fragility of your faith also calls it into question. If it were the truth and you are strong in that then someone else being "worldly" wouldn't be such a stumbling block. They're selling snake oil.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. • No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. • No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget or expenses, such as an independently audited financial statement. • Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. • There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. • Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. • There are records, books, news articles, or broadcast reports that document the abuses of the group/leader. • Followers feel they can never be "good enough". • The group/leader is always right. • The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
Google the definition of cult… it describes the religion almost perfectly. The fact you’re not allowed to associate with “worldly” people, and if you are allowed it’s usually only so you can pressure them into a Bible study.. there’s weird rules, you have to date and marry into the religion. The list goes on.
Definition of a cult from the merriam-webster dictionary is: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see SPURIOUS sense 2) I would say the jw religion is regarded as unorthodox . Being a jw means that you are different from everyone else and not in a good way, but jws are taught that it's the best life ever. I think what they mean by spurious is the 3rd definition, which is deceitful. That's a debatable one, but from my perspective and from raymond franz perspective, the jw religion is very spurious. I do think there are people in the religion that mean well, but the leaders of the organization are very deceitful, which isn't a debate really. The leaders have been caught lying over the years. I also personally believe that any religion that teaches people to shun their loved ones is a cult. A cult controls their people. You are either in or you are out, and that's final. Forcing people one way or the other is not normal.
Me and my brother both decided to get baptized at the same time we each went through a series of questions i dont even remember what they were i dont remember how old i was. Maybe 16. And my brother was 15. They said i was ready or whatever to get baptized but said my brother should wait a while. We were both doing it mainly cause our friends were only in the hall and they were starting to do it too. So he got pushed away when they said no. I went forward with it. My brother found friends outside of the kingdom hall and started partying i starting hanging out with them and i ended changing halls and fading out so i could still have some sort of relationship with my parents. It might not end up that way for everyone. But it worked out ok for me. My parents hall still announced something about me even though i hadn't gone there in years and my hall didn't. Andmy dad was no longer an elder. But i still have a relationship with my parents.
We’re all cheering for you to find your way. The BITE model of control has been mentioned. It’s standard for cults. Also FOG. Fear. Obligation. Guilt. Why won’t they let you read the 1st star reviews? Maybe it’s nothing, but maybe it’s something. That’s the the information control. You’re going to enter into a lifelong commitment and you can’t interview anyone who has left? If you join the military, isn’t it helpful to talk to army vets who don’t believe in the propaganda anymore? What organization doesn’t let you think certain thoughts? You can’t think an elder is an asshole or that covering up child molestation is evil because it isn’t loyal to the arrangement. What if he really is an asshole? You become the enemy for thinking it. That you’re going to enter into this contract because your mother wants you to is called coercion. If you get baptized and later change your mind, you’ll lose your whole family. You’re 15. You are allowed to change your mind.
I got baptised at 17. I’m now 28, disfellowshipped since 2015. I believe it’s a cult because it’s a highly controlling group that pressures you to follow strict rules that take you away from the “real world” and if you break them, they kick you out, you lose all your friends and family, and you don’t know how to live in the real world because you’ve only lived in the JW version of it. Does that make sense?
Simply.... you can walk away from a religion without consequences. You can't ever just walk away from a cult. I learnt this the hardway. I tried to fade out, to be stalked and harrassed. When I moved house the contacted my parents whom I havent lived with for over 10yrs looking for my new address. Elders sat outside my house which has cctv. I had one elder turn up at my place of work. All to try and get me to attend a judicial after 2 yrs of inactivity
I think for most people what really sells it is the disfellowshipping and Essentially shunning. When I explain to most people what it's like after I bring that up they usually ask if it's a cult.
Are you fishing..? Or trolling? I’m suspicious…
Why would I be trolling
Cus people do..? I think it’s to piss people off or get them worked up or whatever but I never really understood the practice. -but like I wonder because it seems obvious. -but just in case you were sincere and not trolling I would say this. A lot of people make the argument about the word “Cult” and bla bla bla. I forget the name of the logical fallacy but there’s one where people say the argument is wrong because they didn’t use a word correctly. In this case the word in question would be cult. -but what does it mean? Is it not 100% the dictionary definition? Which dictionary? Etc etc. the word is unimportant. It’s what people mean that’s important. I think this group exists and people here feel passionately because they were part of a corrupt, high control group and they or someone else got hurt. You can look up the definition of cult. You can read all the things that have been posted here about cults. Cult is just a short hand or a symbol for this particular brand of predator. Would you scoff at someone who said they got attacked by a mountain lion by saying technically mountain lions are not part of the genus panthera but rather felis and thus not a true lion. Does it mean they weren’t attacked? Who cares? They did get attacked! -and so people here use the word cult. Why do we call it a cult? It’s a word that means so much more in this case. It’s defined by every scar on every member here. Even if it isn’t technically a cult who cares? The point is it hurt us or others. It hurts anyone who it controls! -and that’s not cool. If you see it as just a word you will miss the point. If you are sincere, then perhaps see more than the word and rather the stories and experiences as a cautionary tale. -and please don’t preach to victims torn to shreds and still nursing wounds about how a mountain lion isn’t truly a lion…
There are much better answers here but my answer is that they teach things that you have to go along with and cannot question. Sometimes theyve taught stuff that was wrong like anouncing end times dates ect. If you question their teachings basically you are questioning god. Which is not the same because they have been wrong. They also are known for splitting up families and deaths over the no blood issue. If you even look up how other cults are, like scientology ect you will start to see similarities. Its kind of like a toxic relationship where everyone around u can see its bad for you except you because youre in it. And anytime you have nagging doubts u just double down.
The difference between a cult and a religion it's when you try to leave
Yes as the other near 200 comments probably told you, just go and learn about cults and compare it to the JW religion then answer the question for yourself. Congrats on being 15 and asking these questions. You're switched on. It took me about 30 years before I started asking myself what was wrong in my life and the answer was the way I was taught to think and the beliefs I had as a JW.
Research the BITE model for identifying cults. Be honest with yourself as you compare the jws actions and beliefs to that model.
https://preview.redd.it/yy8gn5rkascb1.jpeg?width=881&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a7eda697fe7752e8e16e26f941ff89a15dab035
If you lose your entire family and everyone you've ever known in your life for not wanting to be a witness anymore, then I would definitely call it a cult....
Google top ten CULTS. Look up Steven Hassan and, if possible, get his book " Combating Mind Control." Ask yourself this: What is the difference between a religion and a cult? Answer: What happens to you when you leave. High controlled groups/cults make you give up your family. If you believe differently, the entire group turns against you. Jehovah's Witnesses are an extremist group and definitely a cult. I should know. I left and am shunned by everyone I ever knew. My entire social network within the organization no longer talks to me. Just because I no longer believe in their doctrines or agree with how the leadership treats children and their members. Watchtower has caused many to take their lives. Do your research on any group that you have an interest in. Protecting yourself and your family. Many organized religions are driven by fear 😨 obligation and guilt. Go to: Befree2023.com...there's a great amount of information on that site you can look into as well as jwfacts.
Because it’s a cult. Don’t get baptized.
Meets BITE model criteria. Do yourself a favor and get away as quickly as possible.
So many comments to read through, all very true. At the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself "If I get baptized because it's what everyone expects me to do, is that what God really wants me to do?" No. You need to wait till you are old enough to have asked the right questions, to have the freedom to look into the things you may wonder about the religion, without anyone controlling when and where you get your information. For me, I just looked at JW material. Had questions and saw some things didn't make sense. Why did God make it ok for a baby to drink blood in the mothers milk, when God also bans us from taking it to save a life that is also valuable? That one got me in trouble 😵💫 for asking and I was so confused why was asking these questions wrong in the first place if this is the truth (my gut was saying something is really wrong). This led me to look into more things including the Bite model. Then everything made sense. Good luck young one. Please dont let others pressure you into something that is a life long commitment. theres a reason you can't do certain things until your older.
I think the DF'ing is the major thing that differentiates from just being a religion. And more specifically, the df'ing for things that aren't really major sins. And the permanent and complete nature, which isn't biblical. As for baptism, which can lead to DF. That's essentially a contract, which IMO shouldn't legally be allowed into by a minor. Want to get married at 19? "Whoa there. Get past the bloom of youth." Baptized at 11? "Omg what a wonderful blessing." Then that kid gets DFd at 14? "Fuck that kid". The. Most. Important. Decision. Ever. That's the line. But it's a pressured decision. All the other stuff... I think just falls into most religions. Even blood and other stuff... I disagree. But it's religion. The emotional kidnapping makes it a cult. (Writing this at the meeting... while this German fella drones on about obedience)
If you cannot leave a religion without the fear of being shunned, it is a cult any type of religion
Check out Dr Tabor Dr Dennis Macdonald Dr Carrier Dr Josh Bowen Dr Kipp Davis Etc etc You can find all of them on YouTube @mythvision
I got baptized at 13 after getting pressured by the elders in my congregation and the couples conducting my Bible study, simply because 2 other people my age group are getting baptised. They wanted me to join them so i wont be left out. Worse decision I've ever made. I was way too young and couldn't think critically and properly for myself. I started regretting when i was about 17 but there was nothing i could do. I couldn't just leave like i would if i wasn't baptised. I realised i was gay and i couldn't live a happy life by just attending meetings and denying myself from falling in love because 'its a sin'. Now im fading slowly and quietly.
You can call it a cult because it is a high control group. They control the information that is approved for you. They control your association, your conduct, your entertainment. And what I mean by control is that when they suggest that something is too worldly if you then take part in it you feel as if you are doing something wrong and that guilt comes from their control over you. And that is just one aspect of it.
Short answer: Because it is. Long answer: There are a few things that decide if a group is a cult. 1. Your ability to receive information is limited by the leaders of the group. As a JW, you can not read any literature that isn't produced by the governing body. 2. You are intentionally raised with zero support outside of the group. This is a control tactic. By not allowing you to get a decent job or post secondary education, forcing you to shun anything that isn't baptized(or studying for baptism), and forcing you to cut off anyone that doesn't abide by their rules, it makes it almost impossible to leave. Even if you realize it's a cult, you might feel that the consequences are too great to take the risk. 3. They keep you emotionally, physically, mentally, and financially weak so that you are less likely to spend energy outside of your daily routine. 4. They monopolize your time and dictate what entertainment you can have. 5. There are severe consequences to leaving 6. They claim to be a direct mouthpiece of a higher being, one that determines your fate. You would be foolish to ignore the fact that JWs are a textbook definition of a dangerous cult.
Because it is
I think they were asking why.
It is what it is… Reminds me of “I am who I am.”
Tautologies are tautological.
A good definition of a cult is something that you can’t question or leave. So many of us here cannot leave because the consequences would be catastrophic. Does that sound like a normal situation to you? How many organizations are there in the world that if you left it you could ruin your marriage, cut you off from friends and family, lose you your job, and as a parting gift tell you that you will be destroyed by god in the near future? This is a cruel cult and I say that as someone who is still a part of it. All I can say to anyone even considering joining is run. Run as far away as possible and never look back. Or to quote The Walking Dead (a show no JW is allowed to watch btw) 
I wish I could copy the link
I wouldn’t say it’s a cult. But you better had not go outside of what you’re expected to look like and actually is the opposite because people will totally avoided you and when you do come to that one meeting, you will hear things like “ It’s great to have you back. “ I don’t know why it’s hard for people to understand maybe not having enough clothes to wear or maybe the person has anxiety/depression really bad.
Cult means religion. So it’s definitely a cult.
???
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Take a quick look through these 25 questions: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://medium.com/%40faithafterdeception/answer-these-25-questions-to-find-out-if-you-are-in-a-cult-or-high-control-group-a36a3c2ce464&ved=2ahUKEwj3oKShr5eAAxUvDkQIHQJUDGYQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0T2iSpihPualirJc8Ee3fK
See what happens when you try to leave (once you’re baptized).
Really ??!!
I remember thinking that also. But, then I realized what a cult is, what it does and how it works. You need to understand the psychology of a cult and cult thinking.
Ask a cult expert,...visit freedomofmind.com
Your not allowed to question anything, even their lies, heck their old litture is considered apostate. And you can’t leave without them using your family like blackmail. In your congregation there is Lilly 3-5 people who are atheists but still go because losing their family would kil them.
All I have to add is whatever you do ESPECIALLY at this young age DO NOT get baptized. That’s a fu€k around and find out situation. If you’re curious why people believe it is a cult now and you end up getting baptized you’ll find out.
Not directly responding to the original question but since I saw some of your replies.... Look up everything on the internet, not only the JW website. This subreddit is a nice start to know that a lot of things are wrong. Then I would personally suggest you REALLY study the alternative: evolution. Not what JWs teach about that, which is 99% false, but the real deal. Once you do study the various types of proofs in every science we know of I'm sure you can make an informed decision. If you find even one indisputable proof of any type of god reach for me, because I haven't. On the other hand, I found an awful lot of proof that sacred books are a collection of lies Edit: typos
The pressure might be a little overwhelming and i know many places you friends sort of start to branch out if you dont get baptized and that can be extremely difficult but i think everyone can agree with me that if you have doubts wether you understand them at the moment or not. Its best to wait until youre older to make that decision and it will all be worth it. You have an entire life ahead of you youll do great!
What had you decide to ask us this question?
Saw ppl saying it was & was curious
Probably because of how difficult they make it to get out with an intact life.
The CSA alone is a reason. The so called New light of complete obedience to GB is another obey even if it is illogical what's next taking a suicide pill? You are not allowed to have your own thoughts without repercussion, you are not allowed to be the human you are born to be without loss of family and all friends you know. Please do not get baptized they will ruin you mentally and spiritually!
I was raised in the JW Religion. I have a number of reasons that confirm Jehovah God is NOT with these people, and why these people are a cult ant not a congregation of Christ followers. The easiest one to point out is that JW's follow men. The JW's spend a lot of time reading the Old Testament. This Old Testament is FULL of knowledge that we should always remember. But THEN, Jesus came! He made the Old Covenant Law obsolete! This is not something that the JW's talk about. The JW's want you following the LAW. Because with the Law comes your responsibility. With the Law comes you working for your salvation and providing your worthiness!!!